On 4/6/2024 1:49 AM, 😎 Mighty Wannabe ✅ wrote:
> bud-- wrote on 4/5/2024 11:49 PM:
>> On 4/5/2024 1:38 PM, bud-- wrote:
>>> On 4/5/2024 6:04 AM, Bob F wrote:
>>>> On 4/5/2024 4:48 AM, Bob F wrote:
>>>>> On 4/3/2024 8:36 PM, 😎 Mighty Wannabe ✅ wrote:
>>>>>> micky wrote on 4/3/2024 11:06 PM:
>>>>>>> In alt.home.repair, on Wed, 3 Apr 2024 22:28:36 -0400, ? Mighty
>>>>>>> Wannabe
>>>>>>> ? <@.> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Bob F wrote on 4/3/2024 9:58 PM:
>>>>>>>>> On 4/3/2024 6:30 PM, ? Mighty Wannabe ? wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Ed P wrote on 4/3/2024 9:05 PM:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/3/2024 8:31 PM, ? Mighty Wannabe ? wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> Bob F wrote on 4/3/2024 7:59 PM:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/3/2024 3:02 PM, ? Mighty Wannabe ? wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> micky wrote on 4/3/2024 9:46 AM:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Can't find the thread about the Key Bridge being knocked
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> down in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Baltimore, but wanted to comment on the racist pigs
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> around the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> USA who
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> claimed it had something to do with seeking diversity in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> who the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> shipping company hires.   What nonsense.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Did you notice that the news kept mentioning the "pilot"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> instead
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of the "captain"? The captain didn't hit the Baltimore Key
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bridge. The "pilot" who was working for Baltimore was
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> steering
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the ship, not the captain. The pilot was hired to do just
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> because the pilot knows the water channel like the back of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> his
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hand. The pilot knows where the ship should avoid so that it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> won't run aground.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Baltimore authorities cannot sue the captain of the ship
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or owner
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of the ship, because the "pilot" who was steering the ship
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> worked
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for Baltimore.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> The pilot did not hit the bridge, the ship hit the bridge,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> after
>>>>>>>>>>>>> it's power systems failed. You actually think that was the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> pilots
>>>>>>>>>>>>> fault?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> How would you like to have been the second pilot, who was
>>>>>>>>>>>>> there
>>>>>>>>>>>>> being trained?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> The Baltimore's pilot was at the helm. Good luck blaming anyone
>>>>>>>>>>>> else for the accident. The US will have to pick up the tab for
>>>>>>>>>>>> third party liability (people hurt/killed as a result of the
>>>>>>>>>>>> bridge
>>>>>>>>>>>> collapse) and property damage (the bridge and the vehicles that
>>>>>>>>>>>> fell into the water).
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> How We Steer A Cargo Ship
>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3T-wFfPm37U
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> He was at the helm, but the helm did not work. Can't pin that
>>>>>>>>>>> on him.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Nice video.  Did you notice in the last minute that the
>>>>>>>>>>> engines were
>>>>>>>>>>> running and making power?  The ship that hit the bridge did
>>>>>>>>>>> not have
>>>>>>>>>>> that luxury.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Baltimore's pilot was at the helm. He might have accidentally
>>>>>>>>>> killed
>>>>>>>>>> the power by pushing the wrong button.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Are you Rod Speed??? You certainly have his stupid know it all
>>>>>>>>> attitude.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I merely put forward the best, unbiased analysis of what caused the
>>>>>>>> accident.
>>>>>>> Might be unbiased, but definitely not the best analysis.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Other have answered pretty well but since you replied first to my
>>>>>>> post,
>>>>>>> I will take the bait.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If I were driving a Ford with 1000 miles on it, and the rack and
>>>>>>> pinion
>>>>>>> locked up so that I coudlnt' steer it, do you think I would be
>>>>>>> liable
>>>>>>> for the damages that followed or Ford would?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You were driving your own car. How's that relevant to the case of
>>>>>> the Baltimore harbour pilots at the helm of a strange (or not so
>>>>>> familiar) ship?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It's the same here.  Assuming the engine could have been turned
>>>>>>> off, and
>>>>>>> that the pilot had the power to do that, and he did it, that
>>>>>>> would make
>>>>>>> the pilot and his employer liable. But you have to prove that by a
>>>>>>> preponderance of the evidence.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think there is a black box in ships like that. I think they got
>>>>>> the hold of the black box.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.businessinsider.com/baltimore-bridge-collapse-cargo-ship-black-box-recovered-2024-3
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It could also be that the owner of the ship didn't maintain the
>>>>>>> engines
>>>>>>> properly and that caused the engines to stop.  That would make
>>>>>>> the owner
>>>>>>> liable.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It worked fine all over the world until the Baltimore harbour
>>>>>> pilots took over the helm. I'd blame the pilots first.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It could be, I hear, that the fuel they used was bad and that
>>>>>>> made the
>>>>>>> engnine and the electrical generating engines stop. That could
>>>>>>> make the
>>>>>>> vendor of the fuel liable, unless maybe he took the standard
>>>>>>> amount of
>>>>>>> care but someone else not related to the fuel vendor intentionally
>>>>>>> damaged the fuel.   Or it could be the fuel wholesaler or
>>>>>>> producer made
>>>>>>> bad fuel that fouled the engines.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Bad fuel won't make the power go out and come back on.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It could be that none of those parties were negligent but it
>>>>>>> turns out
>>>>>>> the electical generating engines fail at a certain age, and it
>>>>>>> was that
>>>>>>> old but they buyers weren't warned.   The maker of the engines might
>>>>>>> have known they fail at that age and not warned the buyers, or
>>>>>>> maybe he
>>>>>>> didn't know this.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This does not explain why the power went out and came back on.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm sure there are other things that could have caused this.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Fat finger pushing the wrong button?
>>>>>
>>>>> The pilot never touches any buttons, other than perhaps the switch
>>>>> on a microphone.
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It's not clear from afar, and it's not even clear to those on the
>>>>>>> scene,
>>>>>>> if someone was at fault and if so, who it was.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You keep trying to make excuses for the Baltimore harbour pilots
>>>>>> when their human error is the most likely culprit of this disaster.
>>>>>
>>>>> You keep blaming the pilot, without an ounce of evidence or any
>>>>> reasonable way a pilot could have caused the power failure(s).
>>>>>
>>>>> When the reports are made, equipment failure will most likely be
>>>>> the cause, and the pilot is highly unlikely to be held responsible,
>>>>> since there is nothing a pilot could do to cause equipment
>>>>> failures. Some form of poor maintenance will likely be cited as the
>>>>> cause, with crew operational mistakes being the most likely
>>>>> alternative.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "There were two ship pilots aboard the ship as it left its berth in
>>>> the Port of Baltimore. Can you tell us what ship pilots do?
>>>>
>>>> Post: Ship pilots are brought on board in what are considered
>>>> restricted maneuverability or navigation areas. They are local
>>>> experts who are usually certified by the state or federal government
>>>> to provide advice to the master of the vessel as to how to control
>>>> the vessel, safely and adequately, through the pilotage waters,
>>>> which in this case would be down the river from the Port of Baltimore.
>>>>
>>>> Pilots are well practiced in close-quarters maneuvering, especially
>>>> with tugboats and docking the vessel alongside the assigned berth.
>>>>
>>>> But a pilot doesn’t come aboard the ship and take control of it, do
>>>> they?
>>>>
>>>> Post: They are just advisers to the captain, who is known as the
>>>> “master.” The master still has full responsibility for the safe
>>>> navigation of the vessel. So the pilot will meet the ship out at sea
>>>> or at the dock if it’s in port and leaving to go to sea. They
>>>> proceed up to the bridge. Usually they exchange greetings, and
>>>> usually a little bit of ship’s swag is given, either a hat or
>>>> something else, or at least a cup of coffee.
>>>>
>>>> They then set up their gear. With the electronics that we now have,
>>>> they plug into the ship’s electronic chart data information system.
>>>> And then they conduct the pilot exchange with the master of the
>>>> vessel, where the master of the vessel describes where they are
>>>> going, what the characteristics of the ship are, who’s on the
>>>> bridge, what their first language is and the air draft of the
>>>> vessel, which refers to how high out of the water the vessel is, so
>>>> that you know whether you can take the ship under a bridge safely.
>>>>
>>>> Once that’s completed, the pilot then starts instructing the officer
>>>> of the watch or the captain – those are usually the same person – in
>>>> how to get to where they need to be to dock the ship, or undock the
>>>> ship and bring it to sea. This instructing is done during complex
>>>> maneuvers, not all the time. The pilot can also say he’s not going
>>>> to do it, and can shut down their operations if conditions are
>>>> unsafe or if they feel that the vessel is not in condition to be
>>>> able to transit safely. That happens a lot, especially in fog.
>>>>
>>>> The ship pilot also interacts with the Coast Guard Vessel Traffic
>>>> Service and other ships in the area, and coordinates with the
>>>> tugboats and line handlers to be able to safely maneuver the vessel
>>>> close to the pier or when a ship is leaving the berth."
>>>>
>>>> https://today.tamu.edu/2024/03/26/how-captains-and-harbor-pilots-safely-guide-ships-into-port/
>>>>
>>>
>>> Interesting description.
>>>
>>> -----
>>> Stupid idea - that a pilot directly operates the controls of a ship
>>> he has no experience operating. (If that is not completely obvious
>>> read above.)
>>>
>>> Stupid idea - that there is a readily accessible easily operated
>>> button on the bridge that will shut down the engines. (If I am
>>> driving and push the car Run/Off button nothing happens.)
>>>
>>> Someone is competing for Ed's coveted Worst Post Ever award. With
>>> stiff competition I don't think he has quite made it yet.
>>>
>>
>> I may have accidentally deleted a Mighty Wannabe post, because I am a
>> mouthbreathing idiot!!!
>>
>
> Fear not!!!
>
>
> This is my reply to ED P's post. Apparently a trainee pilot from
> Baltimore port authority was handling all the maneuvers on the bridge of
> the container ship, right until the crash:

On 4/6/2024 9:21 AM, bud-- wrote:
> On 4/6/2024 1:49 AM, 😎 Mighty Wannabe ✅ wrote:
>> bud-- wrote on 4/5/2024 11:49 PM:
>>> On 4/5/2024 1:38 PM, bud-- wrote:
>>>> On 4/5/2024 6:04 AM, Bob F wrote:
>>>>> On 4/5/2024 4:48 AM, Bob F wrote:
>>>>>> On 4/3/2024 8:36 PM, 😎 Mighty Wannabe ✅ wrote:
>>>>>>> micky wrote on 4/3/2024 11:06 PM:
>>>>>>>> In alt.home.repair, on Wed, 3 Apr 2024 22:28:36 -0400, ? Mighty
>>>>>>>> Wannabe
>>>>>>>> ? <@.> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Bob F wrote on 4/3/2024 9:58 PM:
>>>>>>>>>> On 4/3/2024 6:30 PM, ? Mighty Wannabe ? wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Ed P wrote on 4/3/2024 9:05 PM:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/3/2024 8:31 PM, ? Mighty Wannabe ? wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bob F wrote on 4/3/2024 7:59 PM:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/3/2024 3:02 PM, ? Mighty Wannabe ? wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> micky wrote on 4/3/2024 9:46 AM:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Can't find the thread about the Key Bridge being knocked
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> down in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Baltimore, but wanted to comment on the racist pigs
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> around the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> USA who
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> claimed it had something to do with seeking diversity in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> who the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> shipping company hires.   What nonsense.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Did you notice that the news kept mentioning the "pilot"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> instead
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of the "captain"? The captain didn't hit the Baltimore Key
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bridge. The "pilot" who was working for Baltimore was
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> steering
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the ship, not the captain. The pilot was hired to do just
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> because the pilot knows the water channel like the back
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of his
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hand. The pilot knows where the ship should avoid so that it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> won't run aground.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Baltimore authorities cannot sue the captain of the ship
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or owner
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of the ship, because the "pilot" who was steering the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ship worked
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for Baltimore.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The pilot did not hit the bridge, the ship hit the bridge,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> after
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it's power systems failed. You actually think that was the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> pilots
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fault?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> How would you like to have been the second pilot, who was
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> there
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> being trained?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> The Baltimore's pilot was at the helm. Good luck blaming
>>>>>>>>>>>>> anyone
>>>>>>>>>>>>> else for the accident. The US will have to pick up the tab for
>>>>>>>>>>>>> third party liability (people hurt/killed as a result of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the bridge
>>>>>>>>>>>>> collapse) and property damage (the bridge and the vehicles
>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>>> fell into the water).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> How We Steer A Cargo Ship
>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3T-wFfPm37U
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> He was at the helm, but the helm did not work. Can't pin
>>>>>>>>>>>> that on him.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Nice video.  Did you notice in the last minute that the
>>>>>>>>>>>> engines were
>>>>>>>>>>>> running and making power?  The ship that hit the bridge did
>>>>>>>>>>>> not have
>>>>>>>>>>>> that luxury.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Baltimore's pilot was at the helm. He might have accidentally
>>>>>>>>>>> killed
>>>>>>>>>>> the power by pushing the wrong button.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Are you Rod Speed??? You certainly have his stupid know it all
>>>>>>>>>> attitude.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I merely put forward the best, unbiased analysis of what caused
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> accident.
>>>>>>>> Might be unbiased, but definitely not the best analysis.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Other have answered pretty well but since you replied first to
>>>>>>>> my post,
>>>>>>>> I will take the bait.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If I were driving a Ford with 1000 miles on it, and the rack and
>>>>>>>> pinion
>>>>>>>> locked up so that I coudlnt' steer it, do you think I would be
>>>>>>>> liable
>>>>>>>> for the damages that followed or Ford would?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You were driving your own car. How's that relevant to the case of
>>>>>>> the Baltimore harbour pilots at the helm of a strange (or not so
>>>>>>> familiar) ship?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It's the same here.  Assuming the engine could have been turned
>>>>>>>> off, and
>>>>>>>> that the pilot had the power to do that, and he did it, that
>>>>>>>> would make
>>>>>>>> the pilot and his employer liable. But you have to prove that by a
>>>>>>>> preponderance of the evidence.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I think there is a black box in ships like that. I think they got
>>>>>>> the hold of the black box.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://www.businessinsider.com/baltimore-bridge-collapse-cargo-ship-black-box-recovered-2024-3
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It could also be that the owner of the ship didn't maintain the
>>>>>>>> engines
>>>>>>>> properly and that caused the engines to stop.  That would make
>>>>>>>> the owner
>>>>>>>> liable.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It worked fine all over the world until the Baltimore harbour
>>>>>>> pilots took over the helm. I'd blame the pilots first.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It could be, I hear, that the fuel they used was bad and that
>>>>>>>> made the
>>>>>>>> engnine and the electrical generating engines stop. That could
>>>>>>>> make the
>>>>>>>> vendor of the fuel liable, unless maybe he took the standard
>>>>>>>> amount of
>>>>>>>> care but someone else not related to the fuel vendor intentionally
>>>>>>>> damaged the fuel.   Or it could be the fuel wholesaler or
>>>>>>>> producer made
>>>>>>>> bad fuel that fouled the engines.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Bad fuel won't make the power go out and come back on.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It could be that none of those parties were negligent but it
>>>>>>>> turns out
>>>>>>>> the electical generating engines fail at a certain age, and it
>>>>>>>> was that
>>>>>>>> old but they buyers weren't warned.   The maker of the engines
>>>>>>>> might
>>>>>>>> have known they fail at that age and not warned the buyers, or
>>>>>>>> maybe he
>>>>>>>> didn't know this.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This does not explain why the power went out and came back on.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I'm sure there are other things that could have caused this.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Fat finger pushing the wrong button?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The pilot never touches any buttons, other than perhaps the switch
>>>>>> on a microphone.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It's not clear from afar, and it's not even clear to those on
>>>>>>>> the scene,
>>>>>>>> if someone was at fault and if so, who it was.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You keep trying to make excuses for the Baltimore harbour pilots
>>>>>>> when their human error is the most likely culprit of this disaster.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You keep blaming the pilot, without an ounce of evidence or any
>>>>>> reasonable way a pilot could have caused the power failure(s).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> When the reports are made, equipment failure will most likely be
>>>>>> the cause, and the pilot is highly unlikely to be held
>>>>>> responsible, since there is nothing a pilot could do to cause
>>>>>> equipment failures. Some form of poor maintenance will likely be
>>>>>> cited as the cause, with crew operational mistakes being the most
>>>>>> likely alternative.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> "There were two ship pilots aboard the ship as it left its berth in
>>>>> the Port of Baltimore. Can you tell us what ship pilots do?
>>>>>
>>>>> Post: Ship pilots are brought on board in what are considered
>>>>> restricted maneuverability or navigation areas. They are local
>>>>> experts who are usually certified by the state or federal
>>>>> government to provide advice to the master of the vessel as to how
>>>>> to control the vessel, safely and adequately, through the pilotage
>>>>> waters, which in this case would be down the river from the Port of
>>>>> Baltimore.
>>>>>
>>>>> Pilots are well practiced in close-quarters maneuvering, especially
>>>>> with tugboats and docking the vessel alongside the assigned berth.
>>>>>
>>>>> But a pilot doesn’t come aboard the ship and take control of it, do
>>>>> they?
>>>>>
>>>>> Post: They are just advisers to the captain, who is known as the
>>>>> “master.” The master still has full responsibility for the safe
>>>>> navigation of the vessel. So the pilot will meet the ship out at
>>>>> sea or at the dock if it’s in port and leaving to go to sea. They
>>>>> proceed up to the bridge. Usually they exchange greetings, and
>>>>> usually a little bit of ship’s swag is given, either a hat or
>>>>> something else, or at least a cup of coffee.
>>>>>
>>>>> They then set up their gear. With the electronics that we now have,
>>>>> they plug into the ship’s electronic chart data information system.
>>>>> And then they conduct the pilot exchange with the master of the
>>>>> vessel, where the master of the vessel describes where they are
>>>>> going, what the characteristics of the ship are, who’s on the
>>>>> bridge, what their first language is and the air draft of the
>>>>> vessel, which refers to how high out of the water the vessel is, so
>>>>> that you know whether you can take the ship under a bridge safely.
>>>>>
>>>>> Once that’s completed, the pilot then starts instructing the
>>>>> officer of the watch or the captain – those are usually the same
>>>>> person – in how to get to where they need to be to dock the ship,
>>>>> or undock the ship and bring it to sea. This instructing is done
>>>>> during complex maneuvers, not all the time. The pilot can also say
>>>>> he’s not going to do it, and can shut down their operations if
>>>>> conditions are unsafe or if they feel that the vessel is not in
>>>>> condition to be able to transit safely. That happens a lot,
>>>>> especially in fog.
>>>>>
>>>>> The ship pilot also interacts with the Coast Guard Vessel Traffic
>>>>> Service and other ships in the area, and coordinates with the
>>>>> tugboats and line handlers to be able to safely maneuver the vessel
>>>>> close to the pier or when a ship is leaving the berth."
>>>>>
>>>>> https://today.tamu.edu/2024/03/26/how-captains-and-harbor-pilots-safely-guide-ships-into-port/
>>>>
>>>> Interesting description.
>>>>
>>>> -----
>>>> Stupid idea - that a pilot directly operates the controls of a ship
>>>> he has no experience operating. (If that is not completely obvious
>>>> read above.)
>>>>
>>>> Stupid idea - that there is a readily accessible easily operated
>>>> button on the bridge that will shut down the engines. (If I am
>>>> driving and push the car Run/Off button nothing happens.)
>>>>
>>>> Someone is competing for Ed's coveted Worst Post Ever award. With
>>>> stiff competition I don't think he has quite made it yet.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I may have accidentally deleted a Mighty Wannabe post, because I am a
>>> mouthbreathing idiot!!!
>>>
>>
>> Fear not!!!
>>
>>
>> This is my reply to ED P's post. Apparently a trainee pilot from
>> Baltimore port authority was handling all the maneuvers on the bridge
>> of the container ship, right until the crash:
>
> Still unable to read and understand what is in Bob F's post Wannabeatrol
> repeats the same delusional bullshit.
>
> Pilots do not operate the ship controls.

Bob F <bobnospam@gmail.com> writes:
>On 4/6/2024 9:21 AM, bud-- wrote:
>> On 4/6/2024 1:49 AM, 😎 Mighty Wannabe ✅ wrote:

>>> This is my reply to ED P's post. Apparently a trainee pilot from
>>> Baltimore port authority was handling all the maneuvers on the bridge
>>> of the container ship, right until the crash:
>>
>> Still unable to read and understand what is in Bob F's post Wannabeatrol
>> repeats the same delusional bullshit.
>>
>> Pilots do not operate the ship controls.
>
>Big Thumb Wannabe Rod Speed is exactly performing as Rod Speed.
>Repeating the exact same nonsense over and over as if that will make it
>right despite the clear evidence he is wrong.

It seems to be conflating "harbor pilot" with "airplane pilot".

>
>This Troll cannot learn, and is the perfect example of a classic
>"know-it-all".

Or just the classic example of a troll.

In any case, speculation on a usenet newsgroup based on media
articles is pointless.

On 4/6/2024 9:06 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> Bob F <bobnospam@gmail.com> writes:
>> On 4/6/2024 9:21 AM, bud-- wrote:
>>> On 4/6/2024 1:49 AM, 😎 Mighty Wannabe ✅ wrote:
>
>>>> This is my reply to ED P's post. Apparently a trainee pilot from
>>>> Baltimore port authority was handling all the maneuvers on the bridge
>>>> of the container ship, right until the crash:
>>>
>>> Still unable to read and understand what is in Bob F's post Wannabeatrol
>>> repeats the same delusional bullshit.
>>>
>>> Pilots do not operate the ship controls.
>>
>> Big Thumb Wannabe Rod Speed is exactly performing as Rod Speed.
>> Repeating the exact same nonsense over and over as if that will make it
>> right despite the clear evidence he is wrong.
>
> It seems to be conflating "harbor pilot" with "airplane pilot".
>
>>
>> This Troll cannot learn, and is the perfect example of a classic
>> "know-it-all".
>
> Or just the classic example of a troll.
>
> In any case, speculation on a usenet newsgroup based on media
> articles is pointless.
>

But not as pointless as making absurd assumptions based on the poor
wording in such "sources".

bud-- wrote on 4/6/2024 12:21 PM:
> On 4/6/2024 1:49 AM, 😎 Mighty Wannabe ✅ wrote:
>> bud-- wrote on 4/5/2024 11:49 PM:
>>> On 4/5/2024 1:38 PM, bud-- wrote:
>>>> On 4/5/2024 6:04 AM, Bob F wrote:
>>>>> On 4/5/2024 4:48 AM, Bob F wrote:
>>>>>> On 4/3/2024 8:36 PM, 😎 Mighty Wannabe ✅ wrote:
>>>>>>> micky wrote on 4/3/2024 11:06 PM:
>>>>>>>> In alt.home.repair, on Wed, 3 Apr 2024 22:28:36 -0400, ? Mighty
>>>>>>>> Wannabe
>>>>>>>> ? <@.> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Bob F wrote on 4/3/2024 9:58 PM:
>>>>>>>>>> On 4/3/2024 6:30 PM, ? Mighty Wannabe ? wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Ed P wrote on 4/3/2024 9:05 PM:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/3/2024 8:31 PM, ? Mighty Wannabe ? wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bob F wrote on 4/3/2024 7:59 PM:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/3/2024 3:02 PM, ? Mighty Wannabe ? wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> micky wrote on 4/3/2024 9:46 AM:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Can't find the thread about the Key Bridge being
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> knocked down in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Baltimore, but wanted to comment on the racist pigs
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> around the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> USA who
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> claimed it had something to do with seeking diversity
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in who the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> shipping company hires.   What nonsense.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Did you notice that the news kept mentioning the "pilot"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> instead
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of the "captain"? The captain didn't hit the Baltimore Key
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bridge. The "pilot" who was working for Baltimore was
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> steering
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the ship, not the captain. The pilot was hired to do
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> just that,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> because the pilot knows the water channel like the back
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of his
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hand. The pilot knows where the ship should avoid so
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> won't run aground.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Baltimore authorities cannot sue the captain of the ship
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or owner
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of the ship, because the "pilot" who was steering the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ship worked
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for Baltimore.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The pilot did not hit the bridge, the ship hit the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bridge, after
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it's power systems failed. You actually think that was
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the pilots
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fault?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> How would you like to have been the second pilot, who was
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> there
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> being trained?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> The Baltimore's pilot was at the helm. Good luck blaming
>>>>>>>>>>>>> anyone
>>>>>>>>>>>>> else for the accident. The US will have to pick up the tab
>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>> third party liability (people hurt/killed as a result of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the bridge
>>>>>>>>>>>>> collapse) and property damage (the bridge and the vehicles
>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>>> fell into the water).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> How We Steer A Cargo Ship
>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3T-wFfPm37U
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> He was at the helm, but the helm did not work. Can't pin
>>>>>>>>>>>> that on him.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Nice video.  Did you notice in the last minute that the
>>>>>>>>>>>> engines were
>>>>>>>>>>>> running and making power?  The ship that hit the bridge did
>>>>>>>>>>>> not have
>>>>>>>>>>>> that luxury.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Baltimore's pilot was at the helm. He might have
>>>>>>>>>>> accidentally killed
>>>>>>>>>>> the power by pushing the wrong button.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Are you Rod Speed??? You certainly have his stupid know it
>>>>>>>>>> all attitude.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I merely put forward the best, unbiased analysis of what
>>>>>>>>> caused the
>>>>>>>>> accident.
>>>>>>>> Might be unbiased, but definitely not the best analysis.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Other have answered pretty well but since you replied first to
>>>>>>>> my post,
>>>>>>>> I will take the bait.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If I were driving a Ford with 1000 miles on it, and the rack
>>>>>>>> and pinion
>>>>>>>> locked up so that I coudlnt' steer it, do you think I would be
>>>>>>>> liable
>>>>>>>> for the damages that followed or Ford would?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You were driving your own car. How's that relevant to the case
>>>>>>> of the Baltimore harbour pilots at the helm of a strange (or not
>>>>>>> so familiar) ship?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It's the same here.  Assuming the engine could have been turned
>>>>>>>> off, and
>>>>>>>> that the pilot had the power to do that, and he did it, that
>>>>>>>> would make
>>>>>>>> the pilot and his employer liable. But you have to prove that by a
>>>>>>>> preponderance of the evidence.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I think there is a black box in ships like that. I think they
>>>>>>> got the hold of the black box.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://www.businessinsider.com/baltimore-bridge-collapse-cargo-ship-black-box-recovered-2024-3
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It could also be that the owner of the ship didn't maintain the
>>>>>>>> engines
>>>>>>>> properly and that caused the engines to stop.  That would make
>>>>>>>> the owner
>>>>>>>> liable.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It worked fine all over the world until the Baltimore harbour
>>>>>>> pilots took over the helm. I'd blame the pilots first.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It could be, I hear, that the fuel they used was bad and that
>>>>>>>> made the
>>>>>>>> engnine and the electrical generating engines stop. That could
>>>>>>>> make the
>>>>>>>> vendor of the fuel liable, unless maybe he took the standard
>>>>>>>> amount of
>>>>>>>> care but someone else not related to the fuel vendor intentionally
>>>>>>>> damaged the fuel.   Or it could be the fuel wholesaler or
>>>>>>>> producer made
>>>>>>>> bad fuel that fouled the engines.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Bad fuel won't make the power go out and come back on.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It could be that none of those parties were negligent but it
>>>>>>>> turns out
>>>>>>>> the electical generating engines fail at a certain age, and it
>>>>>>>> was that
>>>>>>>> old but they buyers weren't warned.   The maker of the engines
>>>>>>>> might
>>>>>>>> have known they fail at that age and not warned the buyers, or
>>>>>>>> maybe he
>>>>>>>> didn't know this.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This does not explain why the power went out and came back on.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I'm sure there are other things that could have caused this.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Fat finger pushing the wrong button?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The pilot never touches any buttons, other than perhaps the
>>>>>> switch on a microphone.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It's not clear from afar, and it's not even clear to those on
>>>>>>>> the scene,
>>>>>>>> if someone was at fault and if so, who it was.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You keep trying to make excuses for the Baltimore harbour pilots
>>>>>>> when their human error is the most likely culprit of this disaster.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You keep blaming the pilot, without an ounce of evidence or any
>>>>>> reasonable way a pilot could have caused the power failure(s).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> When the reports are made, equipment failure will most likely be
>>>>>> the cause, and the pilot is highly unlikely to be held
>>>>>> responsible, since there is nothing a pilot could do to cause
>>>>>> equipment failures. Some form of poor maintenance will likely be
>>>>>> cited as the cause, with crew operational mistakes being the most
>>>>>> likely alternative.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> "There were two ship pilots aboard the ship as it left its berth
>>>>> in the Port of Baltimore. Can you tell us what ship pilots do?
>>>>>
>>>>> Post: Ship pilots are brought on board in what are considered
>>>>> restricted maneuverability or navigation areas. They are local
>>>>> experts who are usually certified by the state or federal
>>>>> government to provide advice to the master of the vessel as to how
>>>>> to control the vessel, safely and adequately, through the pilotage
>>>>> waters, which in this case would be down the river from the Port
>>>>> of Baltimore.
>>>>>
>>>>> Pilots are well practiced in close-quarters maneuvering,
>>>>> especially with tugboats and docking the vessel alongside the
>>>>> assigned berth.
>>>>>
>>>>> But a pilot doesn’t come aboard the ship and take control of it,
>>>>> do they?
>>>>>
>>>>> Post: They are just advisers to the captain, who is known as the
>>>>> “master.” The master still has full responsibility for the safe
>>>>> navigation of the vessel. So the pilot will meet the ship out at
>>>>> sea or at the dock if it’s in port and leaving to go to sea. They
>>>>> proceed up to the bridge. Usually they exchange greetings, and
>>>>> usually a little bit of ship’s swag is given, either a hat or
>>>>> something else, or at least a cup of coffee.
>>>>>
>>>>> They then set up their gear. With the electronics that we now
>>>>> have, they plug into the ship’s electronic chart data information
>>>>> system. And then they conduct the pilot exchange with the master
>>>>> of the vessel, where the master of the vessel describes where they
>>>>> are going, what the characteristics of the ship are, who’s on the
>>>>> bridge, what their first language is and the air draft of the
>>>>> vessel, which refers to how high out of the water the vessel is,
>>>>> so that you know whether you can take the ship under a bridge safely.
>>>>>
>>>>> Once that’s completed, the pilot then starts instructing the
>>>>> officer of the watch or the captain – those are usually the same
>>>>> person – in how to get to where they need to be to dock the ship,
>>>>> or undock the ship and bring it to sea. This instructing is done
>>>>> during complex maneuvers, not all the time. The pilot can also say
>>>>> he’s not going to do it, and can shut down their operations if
>>>>> conditions are unsafe or if they feel that the vessel is not in
>>>>> condition to be able to transit safely. That happens a lot,
>>>>> especially in fog.
>>>>>
>>>>> The ship pilot also interacts with the Coast Guard Vessel Traffic
>>>>> Service and other ships in the area, and coordinates with the
>>>>> tugboats and line handlers to be able to safely maneuver the
>>>>> vessel close to the pier or when a ship is leaving the berth."
>>>>>
>>>>> https://today.tamu.edu/2024/03/26/how-captains-and-harbor-pilots-safely-guide-ships-into-port/
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Interesting description.
>>>>
>>>> -----
>>>> Stupid idea - that a pilot directly operates the controls of a ship
>>>> he has no experience operating. (If that is not completely obvious
>>>> read above.)
>>>>
>>>> Stupid idea - that there is a readily accessible easily operated
>>>> button on the bridge that will shut down the engines. (If I am
>>>> driving and push the car Run/Off button nothing happens.)
>>>>
>>>> Someone is competing for Ed's coveted Worst Post Ever award. With
>>>> stiff competition I don't think he has quite made it yet.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I may have accidentally deleted a Mighty Wannabe post, because I am
>>> a mouthbreathing idiot!!!
>>>
>>
>> Fear not!!!
>>
>>
>> This is my reply to ED P's post. Apparently a trainee pilot from
>> Baltimore port authority was handling all the maneuvers on the bridge
>> of the container ship, right until the crash:
>
> Still unable to read and understand
>
>

On 4/6/2024 4:13 PM, 😎 Mighty Wannabe ✅ wrote:

>>
>> Still unable to read and understand
>>
>>
Correct, you do not understand.
>
>

>
> The following paragraphs are excerpts from your link:
>
> #1
> “The pilot ordered a hard left rudder, and dropped the port anchor to
> try to keep the ship from moving right,” said Clayton L. Diamond,
> executive director and general counsel for The American Pilots’
> Association. “The pilot did everything he could to slow the ship.”
>
> #2
> The Maryland pilot who guided the ship received years of training to
> become a pilot, has a state license which requires knowledge of the
> local waters and has more than a decade of experience. An apprentice
> pilot was on board observing the pilot, but Diamond said he was new to
> the pilot training program, having started on Feb. 1, and was not
> involved in any of the decisions during the three minutes before the crash.
>
> From the above two paragraphs (apparently carefully crafted), I can
> understand that there was a pilot and a trainee. The second paragraph
> above pointed out that the trainee "was not involved in any of the
> decisions during the three minutes before the crash". That implies that
> the trainee was making the decisions and operating the controls on
> his/her own all the time, but was following orders from the pilot during
> the three minutes before the crash. Everybody should understand that
> when a pilot and a trainee pilot are present on the bridge of the ship,
> the trainee pilot would be operating the controls (theoretically under
> the supervision of the pilot, but generally that's not the case in real
> life. The pilot would be drinking coffee, walking around, and yapping
> with other people on the bridge). The trainee operating the controls is
> how the trainee gets the experience in operating the controls.

It only implies it in your head. The trainee may have just been
standing there, watching and learning but not touching or doing
anything. May be his first day on the job.

Do you have proof of any of your convoluted theories? Did the pilot
have a coffee? Did you see the cup?

No matter how many times you repeat your theory it does not get any more
truthful. The trainee may have been just tearing up Trump ballots and
tossing them over to get rid of them. That is just as good a conspiracy
theory.

In alt.home.repair, on Fri, 5 Apr 2024 05:04:58 -0700, Bob F
<bobnospam@gmail.com> wrote:

>On 4/5/2024 4:48 AM, Bob F wrote:
>> On 4/3/2024 8:36 PM, ? Mighty Wannabe ? wrote:
>>> micky wrote on 4/3/2024 11:06 PM:
>>>> In alt.home.repair, on Wed, 3 Apr 2024 22:28:36 -0400, ? Mighty Wannabe
>>>> ? <@.> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Bob F wrote on 4/3/2024 9:58 PM:
>>>>>> On 4/3/2024 6:30 PM, ? Mighty Wannabe ? wrote:
>>>>>>> Ed P wrote on 4/3/2024 9:05 PM:
>>>>>>>> On 4/3/2024 8:31 PM, ? Mighty Wannabe ? wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Bob F wrote on 4/3/2024 7:59 PM:
>>>>>>>>>> On 4/3/2024 3:02 PM, ? Mighty Wannabe ? wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> micky wrote on 4/3/2024 9:46 AM:
>>>>>>>>>>>> Can't find the thread about the Key Bridge being knocked down in
>>>>>>>>>>>> Baltimore, but wanted to comment on the racist pigs around the
>>>>>>>>>>>> USA who
>>>>>>>>>>>> claimed it had something to do with seeking diversity in who the
>>>>>>>>>>>> shipping company hires.   What nonsense.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Did you notice that the news kept mentioning the "pilot" instead
>>>>>>>>>>> of the "captain"? The captain didn't hit the Baltimore Key
>>>>>>>>>>> Bridge. The "pilot" who was working for Baltimore was steering
>>>>>>>>>>> the ship, not the captain. The pilot was hired to do just that,
>>>>>>>>>>> because the pilot knows the water channel like the back of his
>>>>>>>>>>> hand. The pilot knows where the ship should avoid so that it
>>>>>>>>>>> won't run aground.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Baltimore authorities cannot sue the captain of the ship or owner
>>>>>>>>>>> of the ship, because the "pilot" who was steering the ship worked
>>>>>>>>>>> for Baltimore.
>>>>>>>>>> The pilot did not hit the bridge, the ship hit the bridge, after
>>>>>>>>>> it's power systems failed. You actually think that was the pilots
>>>>>>>>>> fault?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> How would you like to have been the second pilot, who was there
>>>>>>>>>> being trained?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The Baltimore's pilot was at the helm. Good luck blaming anyone
>>>>>>>>> else for the accident. The US will have to pick up the tab for
>>>>>>>>> third party liability (people hurt/killed as a result of the bridge
>>>>>>>>> collapse) and property damage (the bridge and the vehicles that
>>>>>>>>> fell into the water).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> How We Steer A Cargo Ship
>>>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3T-wFfPm37U
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> He was at the helm, but the helm did not work.  Can't pin that on
>>>>>>>> him.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Nice video.  Did you notice in the last minute that the engines were
>>>>>>>> running and making power?  The ship that hit the bridge did not have
>>>>>>>> that luxury.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Baltimore's pilot was at the helm. He might have accidentally killed
>>>>>>> the power by pushing the wrong button.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Are you Rod Speed??? You certainly have his stupid know it all
>>>>>> attitude.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I merely put forward the best, unbiased analysis of what caused the
>>>>> accident.
>>>> Might be unbiased, but definitely not the best analysis.
>>>>
>>>> Other have answered pretty well but since you replied first to my post,
>>>> I will take the bait.
>>>>
>>>> If I were driving a Ford with 1000 miles on it, and the rack and pinion
>>>> locked up so that I coudlnt' steer it, do you think I would be liable
>>>> for the damages that followed or Ford would?
>>>
>>> You were driving your own car. How's that relevant to the case of the
>>> Baltimore harbour pilots at the helm of a strange (or not so familiar)
>>> ship?
>>>
>>>
>>>> It's the same here.  Assuming the engine could have been turned off, and
>>>> that the pilot had the power to do that, and he did it, that would make
>>>> the pilot and his employer liable. But you have to prove that by a
>>>> preponderance of the evidence.
>>>
>>> I think there is a black box in ships like that. I think they got the
>>> hold of the black box.
>>>
>>> https://www.businessinsider.com/baltimore-bridge-collapse-cargo-ship-black-box-recovered-2024-3
>>>
>>>> It could also be that the owner of the ship didn't maintain the engines
>>>> properly and that caused the engines to stop.  That would make the owner
>>>> liable.
>>>
>>> It worked fine all over the world until the Baltimore harbour pilots
>>> took over the helm. I'd blame the pilots first.
>>>
>>>
>>>> It could be, I hear, that the fuel they used was bad and that made the
>>>> engnine and the electrical generating engines stop. That could make the
>>>> vendor of the fuel liable, unless maybe he took the standard amount of
>>>> care but someone else not related to the fuel vendor intentionally
>>>> damaged the fuel.   Or it could be the fuel wholesaler or producer made
>>>> bad fuel that fouled the engines.
>>>
>>> Bad fuel won't make the power go out and come back on.
>>>
>>>
>>>> It could be that none of those parties were negligent but it turns out
>>>> the electical generating engines fail at a certain age, and it was that
>>>> old but they buyers weren't warned.   The maker of the engines might
>>>> have known they fail at that age and not warned the buyers, or maybe he
>>>> didn't know this.
>>>
>>> This does not explain why the power went out and came back on.
>>>
>>>> I'm sure there are other things that could have caused this.
>>>
>>> Fat finger pushing the wrong button?
>>
>> The pilot never touches any buttons, other than perhaps the switch on a
>> microphone.
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> It's not clear from afar, and it's not even clear to those on the scene,
>>>> if someone was at fault and if so, who it was.
>>>
>>>
>>> You keep trying to make excuses for the Baltimore harbour pilots when
>>> their human error is the most likely culprit of this disaster.
>>
>> You keep blaming the pilot, without an ounce of evidence or any
>> reasonable way a pilot could have caused the power failure(s).
>>
>> When the reports are made, equipment failure will most likely be the
>> cause, and the pilot is highly unlikely to be held responsible, since
>> there is nothing a pilot could do to cause equipment failures. Some form
>> of poor maintenance will likely be cited as the cause, with crew
>> operational mistakes being the most likely alternative.
>>
>
>"There were two ship pilots aboard the ship as it left its berth in the
>Port of Baltimore. Can you tell us what ship pilots do?
>
>Post: Ship pilots are brought on board in what are considered restricted
>maneuverability or navigation areas. They are local experts who are
>usually certified by the state or federal government to provide advice
>to the master of the vessel as to how to control the vessel, safely and
>adequately, through the pilotage waters, which in this case would be
>down the river from the Port of Baltimore.
>
>Pilots are well practiced in close-quarters maneuvering, especially with
>tugboats and docking the vessel alongside the assigned berth.
>
>But a pilot doesn’t come aboard the ship and take control of it, do they?
>
>Post: They are just advisers to the captain, who is known as the
>“master.” The master still has full responsibility for the safe
>navigation of the vessel. So the pilot will meet the ship out at sea or
>at the dock if it’s in port and leaving to go to sea. They proceed up to
>the bridge. Usually they exchange greetings, and usually a little bit of
>ship’s swag is given, either a hat or something else, or at least a cup
>of coffee.
>
>They then set up their gear. With the electronics that we now have, they
>plug into the ship’s electronic chart data information system. And then
>they conduct the pilot exchange with the master of the vessel, where the
>master of the vessel describes where they are going, what the
>characteristics of the ship are, who’s on the bridge, what their first
>language is and the air draft of the vessel, which refers to how high
>out of the water the vessel is, so that you know whether you can take
>the ship under a bridge safely.
>
>Once that’s completed, the pilot then starts instructing the officer of
>the watch or the captain – those are usually the same person – in how to
>get to where they need to be to dock the ship, or undock the ship and
>bring it to sea. This instructing is done during complex maneuvers, not
>all the time. The pilot can also say he’s not going to do it, and can
>shut down their operations if conditions are unsafe or if they feel that
>the vessel is not in condition to be able to transit safely. That
>happens a lot, especially in fog.
>
>The ship pilot also interacts with the Coast Guard Vessel Traffic
>Service and other ships in the area, and coordinates with the tugboats
>and line handlers to be able to safely maneuver the vessel close to the
>pier or when a ship is leaving the berth."
>
>https://today.tamu.edu/2024/03/26/how-captains-and-harbor-pilots-safely-guide-ships-into-port/

micky wrote on 4/6/2024 10:54 PM:
> In alt.home.repair, on Fri, 5 Apr 2024 05:04:58 -0700, Bob F
> <bobnospam@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On 4/5/2024 4:48 AM, Bob F wrote:
>>> On 4/3/2024 8:36 PM, ? Mighty Wannabe ? wrote:
>>>> micky wrote on 4/3/2024 11:06 PM:
>>>>> In alt.home.repair, on Wed, 3 Apr 2024 22:28:36 -0400, ? Mighty Wannabe
>>>>> ? <@.> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Bob F wrote on 4/3/2024 9:58 PM:
>>>>>>> On 4/3/2024 6:30 PM, ? Mighty Wannabe ? wrote:
>>>>>>>> Ed P wrote on 4/3/2024 9:05 PM:
>>>>>>>>> On 4/3/2024 8:31 PM, ? Mighty Wannabe ? wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Bob F wrote on 4/3/2024 7:59 PM:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/3/2024 3:02 PM, ? Mighty Wannabe ? wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> micky wrote on 4/3/2024 9:46 AM:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Can't find the thread about the Key Bridge being knocked down in
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Baltimore, but wanted to comment on the racist pigs around the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> USA who
>>>>>>>>>>>>> claimed it had something to do with seeking diversity in who the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> shipping company hires.   What nonsense.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Did you notice that the news kept mentioning the "pilot" instead
>>>>>>>>>>>> of the "captain"? The captain didn't hit the Baltimore Key
>>>>>>>>>>>> Bridge. The "pilot" who was working for Baltimore was steering
>>>>>>>>>>>> the ship, not the captain. The pilot was hired to do just that,
>>>>>>>>>>>> because the pilot knows the water channel like the back of his
>>>>>>>>>>>> hand. The pilot knows where the ship should avoid so that it
>>>>>>>>>>>> won't run aground.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Baltimore authorities cannot sue the captain of the ship or owner
>>>>>>>>>>>> of the ship, because the "pilot" who was steering the ship worked
>>>>>>>>>>>> for Baltimore.
>>>>>>>>>>> The pilot did not hit the bridge, the ship hit the bridge, after
>>>>>>>>>>> it's power systems failed. You actually think that was the pilots
>>>>>>>>>>> fault?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> How would you like to have been the second pilot, who was there
>>>>>>>>>>> being trained?
>>>>>>>>>> The Baltimore's pilot was at the helm. Good luck blaming anyone
>>>>>>>>>> else for the accident. The US will have to pick up the tab for
>>>>>>>>>> third party liability (people hurt/killed as a result of the bridge
>>>>>>>>>> collapse) and property damage (the bridge and the vehicles that
>>>>>>>>>> fell into the water).
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> How We Steer A Cargo Ship
>>>>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3T-wFfPm37U
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> He was at the helm, but the helm did not work.  Can't pin that on
>>>>>>>>> him.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Nice video.  Did you notice in the last minute that the engines were
>>>>>>>>> running and making power?  The ship that hit the bridge did not have
>>>>>>>>> that luxury.
>>>>>>>> Baltimore's pilot was at the helm. He might have accidentally killed
>>>>>>>> the power by pushing the wrong button.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Are you Rod Speed??? You certainly have his stupid know it all
>>>>>>> attitude.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> I merely put forward the best, unbiased analysis of what caused the
>>>>>> accident.
>>>>> Might be unbiased, but definitely not the best analysis.
>>>>>
>>>>> Other have answered pretty well but since you replied first to my post,
>>>>> I will take the bait.
>>>>>
>>>>> If I were driving a Ford with 1000 miles on it, and the rack and pinion
>>>>> locked up so that I coudlnt' steer it, do you think I would be liable
>>>>> for the damages that followed or Ford would?
>>>> You were driving your own car. How's that relevant to the case of the
>>>> Baltimore harbour pilots at the helm of a strange (or not so familiar)
>>>> ship?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> It's the same here.  Assuming the engine could have been turned off, and
>>>>> that the pilot had the power to do that, and he did it, that would make
>>>>> the pilot and his employer liable. But you have to prove that by a
>>>>> preponderance of the evidence.
>>>> I think there is a black box in ships like that. I think they got the
>>>> hold of the black box.
>>>>
>>>> https://www.businessinsider.com/baltimore-bridge-collapse-cargo-ship-black-box-recovered-2024-3
>>>>
>>>>> It could also be that the owner of the ship didn't maintain the engines
>>>>> properly and that caused the engines to stop.  That would make the owner
>>>>> liable.
>>>> It worked fine all over the world until the Baltimore harbour pilots
>>>> took over the helm. I'd blame the pilots first.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> It could be, I hear, that the fuel they used was bad and that made the
>>>>> engnine and the electrical generating engines stop. That could make the
>>>>> vendor of the fuel liable, unless maybe he took the standard amount of
>>>>> care but someone else not related to the fuel vendor intentionally
>>>>> damaged the fuel.   Or it could be the fuel wholesaler or producer made
>>>>> bad fuel that fouled the engines.
>>>> Bad fuel won't make the power go out and come back on.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> It could be that none of those parties were negligent but it turns out
>>>>> the electical generating engines fail at a certain age, and it was that
>>>>> old but they buyers weren't warned.   The maker of the engines might
>>>>> have known they fail at that age and not warned the buyers, or maybe he
>>>>> didn't know this.
>>>> This does not explain why the power went out and came back on.
>>>>
>>>>> I'm sure there are other things that could have caused this.
>>>> Fat finger pushing the wrong button?
>>> The pilot never touches any buttons, other than perhaps the switch on a
>>> microphone.
>>>
>>>>
>>>>> It's not clear from afar, and it's not even clear to those on the scene,
>>>>> if someone was at fault and if so, who it was.
>>>>
>>>> You keep trying to make excuses for the Baltimore harbour pilots when
>>>> their human error is the most likely culprit of this disaster.
>>> You keep blaming the pilot, without an ounce of evidence or any
>>> reasonable way a pilot could have caused the power failure(s).
>>>
>>> When the reports are made, equipment failure will most likely be the
>>> cause, and the pilot is highly unlikely to be held responsible, since
>>> there is nothing a pilot could do to cause equipment failures. Some form
>>> of poor maintenance will likely be cited as the cause, with crew
>>> operational mistakes being the most likely alternative.
>>>
>> "There were two ship pilots aboard the ship as it left its berth in the
>> Port of Baltimore. Can you tell us what ship pilots do?
>>
>> Post: Ship pilots are brought on board in what are considered restricted
>> maneuverability or navigation areas. They are local experts who are
>> usually certified by the state or federal government to provide advice
>> to the master of the vessel as to how to control the vessel, safely and
>> adequately, through the pilotage waters, which in this case would be
>> down the river from the Port of Baltimore.
>>
>> Pilots are well practiced in close-quarters maneuvering, especially with
>> tugboats and docking the vessel alongside the assigned berth.
>>
>> But a pilot doesn’t come aboard the ship and take control of it, do they?
>>
>> Post: They are just advisers to the captain, who is known as the
>> “master.” The master still has full responsibility for the safe
>> navigation of the vessel. So the pilot will meet the ship out at sea or
>> at the dock if it’s in port and leaving to go to sea. They proceed up to
>> the bridge. Usually they exchange greetings, and usually a little bit of
>> ship’s swag is given, either a hat or something else, or at least a cup
>> of coffee.
>>
>> They then set up their gear. With the electronics that we now have, they
>> plug into the ship’s electronic chart data information system. And then
>> they conduct the pilot exchange with the master of the vessel, where the
>> master of the vessel describes where they are going, what the
>> characteristics of the ship are, who’s on the bridge, what their first
>> language is and the air draft of the vessel, which refers to how high
>> out of the water the vessel is, so that you know whether you can take
>> the ship under a bridge safely.
>>
>> Once that’s completed, the pilot then starts instructing the officer of
>> the watch or the captain – those are usually the same person – in how to
>> get to where they need to be to dock the ship, or undock the ship and
>> bring it to sea. This instructing is done during complex maneuvers, not
>> all the time. The pilot can also say he’s not going to do it, and can
>> shut down their operations if conditions are unsafe or if they feel that
>> the vessel is not in condition to be able to transit safely. That
>> happens a lot, especially in fog.
>>
>> The ship pilot also interacts with the Coast Guard Vessel Traffic
>> Service and other ships in the area, and coordinates with the tugboats
>> and line handlers to be able to safely maneuver the vessel close to the
>> pier or when a ship is leaving the berth."
>>
>> https://today.tamu.edu/2024/03/26/how-captains-and-harbor-pilots-safely-guide-ships-into-port/
> I want to get this straight. Are you saying that the deputy
> superintendent of the Texas A&M Maritime Academy, Captain Allan Post,
> knows more about what pilots do than Mighty Wannabe?

In alt.home.repair, on Sat, 6 Apr 2024 23:28:21 -0400, ? Mighty Wannabe
? <@.> wrote:

>
>>> The ship pilot also interacts with the Coast Guard Vessel Traffic
>>> Service and other ships in the area, and coordinates with the tugboats
>>> and line handlers to be able to safely maneuver the vessel close to the
>>> pier or when a ship is leaving the berth."
>>>
>>> https://today.tamu.edu/2024/03/26/how-captains-and-harbor-pilots-safely-guide-ships-into-port/
>> I want to get this straight. Are you saying that the deputy
>> superintendent of the Texas A&M Maritime Academy, Captain Allan Post,
>> knows more about what pilots do than Mighty Wannabe?
>
>Can't you read? Do you have a brain? Texas is not Maryland. Baltimore is
>in Maryland. The idiot in Texas is talking shit, just like you. Texas
>does not have treacherous harbours like those in Baltimore.

Perhaps the Texas A&M Maritime Academy only teaches people how to get in
and out of Texas ports. That would make sesnse. People who plan to
captain or pilot ships should make a list of all the ports they are
interested in, and enrol in the marine academy in the state each is
located in. Given how pro-Texas they are, the superintendent has
probably only worked in Texas also. Time spent elsewhere would just
confuse him.

On 4/6/2024 9:06 PM, micky wrote:
> In alt.home.repair, on Sat, 6 Apr 2024 23:28:21 -0400, ? Mighty Wannabe
> ? <@.> wrote:
>
>>
>>>> The ship pilot also interacts with the Coast Guard Vessel Traffic
>>>> Service and other ships in the area, and coordinates with the tugboats
>>>> and line handlers to be able to safely maneuver the vessel close to the
>>>> pier or when a ship is leaving the berth."
>>>>
>>>> https://today.tamu.edu/2024/03/26/how-captains-and-harbor-pilots-safely-guide-ships-into-port/
>>> I want to get this straight. Are you saying that the deputy
>>> superintendent of the Texas A&M Maritime Academy, Captain Allan Post,
>>> knows more about what pilots do than Mighty Wannabe?
>>
>> Can't you read? Do you have a brain? Texas is not Maryland. Baltimore is
>> in Maryland. The idiot in Texas is talking shit, just like you. Texas
>> does not have treacherous harbours like those in Baltimore.
>
> Perhaps the Texas A&M Maritime Academy only teaches people how to get in
> and out of Texas ports. That would make sesnse. People who plan to
> captain or pilot ships should make a list of all the ports they are
> interested in, and enrol in the marine academy in the state each is
> located in. Given how pro-Texas they are, the superintendent has
> probably only worked in Texas also. Time spent elsewhere would just
> confuse him.

Perhaps Big Thumb Wannabe Rod Speed is F.O.S.?

HE would tell you now that in some places the pilot advises the captain,
and in some places the pilot takes the wheel, runs the engines, controls
the gears and throttle, and pushes the big button that says "turn off
EVERYTHING NOW".

In alt.home.repair, on Sat, 6 Apr 2024 03:49:29 -0400, ? Mighty Wannabe
? <@.> wrote:

>bud-- wrote on 4/5/2024 11:49 PM:
>> On 4/5/2024 1:38 PM, bud-- wrote:
>>> On 4/5/2024 6:04 AM, Bob F wrote:
>>>> On 4/5/2024 4:48 AM, Bob F wrote:
>>>>> On 4/3/2024 8:36 PM, ? Mighty Wannabe ? wrote:
>>>>>> micky wrote on 4/3/2024 11:06 PM:
>>>>>>> In alt.home.repair, on Wed, 3 Apr 2024 22:28:36 -0400, ? Mighty
>>>>>>> Wannabe
>>>>>>> ? <@.> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Bob F wrote on 4/3/2024 9:58 PM:
>>>>>>>>> On 4/3/2024 6:30 PM, ? Mighty Wannabe ? wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Ed P wrote on 4/3/2024 9:05 PM:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/3/2024 8:31 PM, ? Mighty Wannabe ? wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> Bob F wrote on 4/3/2024 7:59 PM:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/3/2024 3:02 PM, ? Mighty Wannabe ? wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> micky wrote on 4/3/2024 9:46 AM:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Can't find the thread about the Key Bridge being knocked
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> down in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Baltimore, but wanted to comment on the racist pigs
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> around the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> USA who
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> claimed it had something to do with seeking diversity in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> who the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> shipping company hires.   What nonsense.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Did you notice that the news kept mentioning the "pilot"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> instead
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of the "captain"? The captain didn't hit the Baltimore Key
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bridge. The "pilot" who was working for Baltimore was
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> steering
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the ship, not the captain. The pilot was hired to do just
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> because the pilot knows the water channel like the back of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> his
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hand. The pilot knows where the ship should avoid so that it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> won't run aground.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Baltimore authorities cannot sue the captain of the ship
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or owner
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of the ship, because the "pilot" who was steering the ship
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> worked
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for Baltimore.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> The pilot did not hit the bridge, the ship hit the bridge,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> after
>>>>>>>>>>>>> it's power systems failed. You actually think that was the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> pilots
>>>>>>>>>>>>> fault?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> How would you like to have been the second pilot, who was
>>>>>>>>>>>>> there
>>>>>>>>>>>>> being trained?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> The Baltimore's pilot was at the helm. Good luck blaming anyone
>>>>>>>>>>>> else for the accident. The US will have to pick up the tab for
>>>>>>>>>>>> third party liability (people hurt/killed as a result of the
>>>>>>>>>>>> bridge
>>>>>>>>>>>> collapse) and property damage (the bridge and the vehicles that
>>>>>>>>>>>> fell into the water).
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> How We Steer A Cargo Ship
>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3T-wFfPm37U
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> He was at the helm, but the helm did not work. Can't pin that
>>>>>>>>>>> on him.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Nice video.  Did you notice in the last minute that the
>>>>>>>>>>> engines were
>>>>>>>>>>> running and making power?  The ship that hit the bridge did
>>>>>>>>>>> not have
>>>>>>>>>>> that luxury.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Baltimore's pilot was at the helm. He might have accidentally
>>>>>>>>>> killed
>>>>>>>>>> the power by pushing the wrong button.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Are you Rod Speed??? You certainly have his stupid know it all
>>>>>>>>> attitude.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I merely put forward the best, unbiased analysis of what caused the
>>>>>>>> accident.
>>>>>>> Might be unbiased, but definitely not the best analysis.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Other have answered pretty well but since you replied first to my
>>>>>>> post,
>>>>>>> I will take the bait.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If I were driving a Ford with 1000 miles on it, and the rack and
>>>>>>> pinion
>>>>>>> locked up so that I coudlnt' steer it, do you think I would be
>>>>>>> liable
>>>>>>> for the damages that followed or Ford would?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You were driving your own car. How's that relevant to the case of
>>>>>> the Baltimore harbour pilots at the helm of a strange (or not so
>>>>>> familiar) ship?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It's the same here.  Assuming the engine could have been turned
>>>>>>> off, and
>>>>>>> that the pilot had the power to do that, and he did it, that
>>>>>>> would make
>>>>>>> the pilot and his employer liable. But you have to prove that by a
>>>>>>> preponderance of the evidence.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think there is a black box in ships like that. I think they got
>>>>>> the hold of the black box.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.businessinsider.com/baltimore-bridge-collapse-cargo-ship-black-box-recovered-2024-3
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It could also be that the owner of the ship didn't maintain the
>>>>>>> engines
>>>>>>> properly and that caused the engines to stop.  That would make
>>>>>>> the owner
>>>>>>> liable.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It worked fine all over the world until the Baltimore harbour
>>>>>> pilots took over the helm. I'd blame the pilots first.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It could be, I hear, that the fuel they used was bad and that
>>>>>>> made the
>>>>>>> engnine and the electrical generating engines stop. That could
>>>>>>> make the
>>>>>>> vendor of the fuel liable, unless maybe he took the standard
>>>>>>> amount of
>>>>>>> care but someone else not related to the fuel vendor intentionally
>>>>>>> damaged the fuel.   Or it could be the fuel wholesaler or
>>>>>>> producer made
>>>>>>> bad fuel that fouled the engines.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Bad fuel won't make the power go out and come back on.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It could be that none of those parties were negligent but it
>>>>>>> turns out
>>>>>>> the electical generating engines fail at a certain age, and it
>>>>>>> was that
>>>>>>> old but they buyers weren't warned.   The maker of the engines might
>>>>>>> have known they fail at that age and not warned the buyers, or
>>>>>>> maybe he
>>>>>>> didn't know this.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This does not explain why the power went out and came back on.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm sure there are other things that could have caused this.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Fat finger pushing the wrong button?
>>>>>
>>>>> The pilot never touches any buttons, other than perhaps the switch
>>>>> on a microphone.
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It's not clear from afar, and it's not even clear to those on the
>>>>>>> scene,
>>>>>>> if someone was at fault and if so, who it was.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You keep trying to make excuses for the Baltimore harbour pilots
>>>>>> when their human error is the most likely culprit of this disaster.
>>>>>
>>>>> You keep blaming the pilot, without an ounce of evidence or any
>>>>> reasonable way a pilot could have caused the power failure(s).
>>>>>
>>>>> When the reports are made, equipment failure will most likely be
>>>>> the cause, and the pilot is highly unlikely to be held responsible,
>>>>> since there is nothing a pilot could do to cause equipment
>>>>> failures. Some form of poor maintenance will likely be cited as the
>>>>> cause, with crew operational mistakes being the most likely
>>>>> alternative.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "There were two ship pilots aboard the ship as it left its berth in
>>>> the Port of Baltimore. Can you tell us what ship pilots do?
>>>>
>>>> Post: Ship pilots are brought on board in what are considered
>>>> restricted maneuverability or navigation areas. They are local
>>>> experts who are usually certified by the state or federal government
>>>> to provide advice to the master of the vessel as to how to control
>>>> the vessel, safely and adequately, through the pilotage waters,
>>>> which in this case would be down the river from the Port of Baltimore.
>>>>
>>>> Pilots are well practiced in close-quarters maneuvering, especially
>>>> with tugboats and docking the vessel alongside the assigned berth.
>>>>
>>>> But a pilot doesn’t come aboard the ship and take control of it, do
>>>> they?
>>>>
>>>> Post: They are just advisers to the captain, who is known as the
>>>> “master.” The master still has full responsibility for the safe
>>>> navigation of the vessel. So the pilot will meet the ship out at sea
>>>> or at the dock if it’s in port and leaving to go to sea. They
>>>> proceed up to the bridge. Usually they exchange greetings, and
>>>> usually a little bit of ship’s swag is given, either a hat or
>>>> something else, or at least a cup of coffee.
>>>>
>>>> They then set up their gear. With the electronics that we now have,
>>>> they plug into the ship’s electronic chart data information system.
>>>> And then they conduct the pilot exchange with the master of the
>>>> vessel, where the master of the vessel describes where they are
>>>> going, what the characteristics of the ship are, who’s on the
>>>> bridge, what their first language is and the air draft of the
>>>> vessel, which refers to how high out of the water the vessel is, so
>>>> that you know whether you can take the ship under a bridge safely.
>>>>
>>>> Once that’s completed, the pilot then starts instructing the officer
>>>> of the watch or the captain – those are usually the same person – in
>>>> how to get to where they need to be to dock the ship, or undock the
>>>> ship and bring it to sea. This instructing is done during complex
>>>> maneuvers, not all the time. The pilot can also say he’s not going
>>>> to do it, and can shut down their operations if conditions are
>>>> unsafe or if they feel that the vessel is not in condition to be
>>>> able to transit safely. That happens a lot, especially in fog.
>>>>
>>>> The ship pilot also interacts with the Coast Guard Vessel Traffic
>>>> Service and other ships in the area, and coordinates with the
>>>> tugboats and line handlers to be able to safely maneuver the vessel
>>>> close to the pier or when a ship is leaving the berth."
>>>>
>>>> https://today.tamu.edu/2024/03/26/how-captains-and-harbor-pilots-safely-guide-ships-into-port/
>>>>
>>>
>>> Interesting description.
>>>
>>> -----
>>> Stupid idea - that a pilot directly operates the controls of a ship
>>> he has no experience operating. (If that is not completely obvious
>>> read above.)
>>>
>>> Stupid idea - that there is a readily accessible easily operated
>>> button on the bridge that will shut down the engines. (If I am
>>> driving and push the car Run/Off button nothing happens.)
>>>
>>> Someone is competing for Ed's coveted Worst Post Ever award. With
>>> stiff competition I don't think he has quite made it yet.
>>>
>>
>> I may have accidentally deleted a Mighty Wannabe post, because I am a
>> mouthbreathing idiot!!!
>>
Bud-- didn't say the words you put into his mouth in the line above.
This is the second time I've seen in this thread that you've changed
what the person before you posted. If you don't want to play by the
rules, don't post here at all. Basically you're lying about what he
said so how will anyone ever trust you?

micky wrote on 4/7/2024 12:06 AM:
> In alt.home.repair, on Sat, 6 Apr 2024 23:28:21 -0400, ? Mighty Wannabe
> ? <@.> wrote:
>
>>>> The ship pilot also interacts with the Coast Guard Vessel Traffic
>>>> Service and other ships in the area, and coordinates with the tugboats
>>>> and line handlers to be able to safely maneuver the vessel close to the
>>>> pier or when a ship is leaving the berth."
>>>>
>>>> https://today.tamu.edu/2024/03/26/how-captains-and-harbor-pilots-safely-guide-ships-into-port/
>>> I want to get this straight. Are you saying that the deputy
>>> superintendent of the Texas A&M Maritime Academy, Captain Allan Post,
>>> knows more about what pilots do than Mighty Wannabe?
>> Can't you read? Do you have a brain? Texas is not Maryland. Baltimore is
>> in Maryland. The idiot in Texas is talking shit, just like you. Texas
>> does not have treacherous harbours like those in Baltimore.
> Perhaps the Texas A&M Maritime Academy only teaches people how to get in
> and out of Texas ports.

Texas is at the Gulf of Mexico. It has 11 deep sea ports. I am surprised
it even needs port pilots.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Texas,+USA/@25.7398334,-92.4156427,5.26z/data=!4m6!3m5!1s0x864070360b823249:0x16eb1c8f1808de3c!8m2!3d31.9685988!4d-99.9018131!16zL20vMDdiX2w?entry=ttu

https://gov.texas.gov/uploads/files/business/Seaports.pdf

On the other hand, Baltimore port is upriver far from the river mouth.
Port pilots are absolutely necessary to navigate through the treacherous
water channel.

Google Maps has updated the broken part of the Key Bridge. If you zoom
out, you can understand why it requires the service of port pilots to
navigate the waters.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Baltimore,+MD,+USA/@39.219363,-76.5285108,14.43z/data=!4m6!3m5!1s0x89c803aed6f483b7:0x44896a84223e758!8m2!3d39.2903848!4d-76.6121893!16zL20vMDk0anY?entry=ttu

> That would make sesnse. People who plan to
> captain or pilot ships should make a list of all the ports they are
> interested in, and enrol in the marine academy in the state each is
> located in.

Every port pilot has to be licensed at the port they work in. Common
sense can tell you that if you are not licensed to work at Port
Baltimore, there is no way you can know the way around the water channel
in Port Baltimore to avoid the underwater obstacles in the water channel
up and down the river.

> Given how pro-Texas they are, the superintendent has
> probably only worked in Texas also. Time spent elsewhere would just
> confuse him.

On 4/6/2024 10:30 AM, Bob F wrote:
> On 4/6/2024 9:06 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>> Bob F <bobnospam@gmail.com> writes:
>>> On 4/6/2024 9:21 AM, bud-- wrote:
>>>> On 4/6/2024 1:49 AM, 😎 Mighty Wannabe ✅ wrote:
>>
>>>>> This is my reply to ED P's post. Apparently a trainee pilot from
>>>>> Baltimore port authority was handling all the maneuvers on the bridge
>>>>> of the container ship, right until the crash:
>>>>
>>>> Still unable to read and understand what is in Bob F's post
>>>> Wannabeatrol
>>>> repeats the same delusional bullshit.
>>>>
>>>> Pilots do not operate the ship controls.
>>>
>>> Big Thumb Wannabe Rod Speed is exactly performing as Rod Speed.
>>> Repeating the exact same nonsense over and over as if that will make it
>>> right despite the clear evidence he is wrong.
>>
>> It seems to be conflating "harbor pilot" with "airplane pilot".
>>
>>>
>>> This Troll cannot learn, and is the perfect example of a classic
>>> "know-it-all".
>>
>> Or just the classic example of a troll.

I agree he has lost any credibility he may have had and is just another
troll, either or both kinds.

>>
>> In any case, speculation on a usenet newsgroup based on media
>> articles is pointless.
>>
>
> But not as pointless as making absurd assumptions based on the poor
> wording in such "sources".

I think the sources are not the problem. I haven't wasted time looking
at the source in his repeated bs, but his conclusions are not supported
by the quotes he has given from that source.

And most of his arguments depend on pilots directly manipulating the
controls which is both stupid and contradicted by what you posted (which
of course he ignores).

micky wrote on 4/7/2024 12:22 AM:
> In alt.home.repair, on Sat, 6 Apr 2024 03:49:29 -0400, ? Mighty Wannabe
> ? <@.> wrote:
>
>> bud-- wrote on 4/5/2024 11:49 PM:
>>> On 4/5/2024 1:38 PM, bud-- wrote:
>>>> On 4/5/2024 6:04 AM, Bob F wrote:
>>>>> On 4/5/2024 4:48 AM, Bob F wrote:
>>>>>> On 4/3/2024 8:36 PM, ? Mighty Wannabe ? wrote:
>>>>>>> micky wrote on 4/3/2024 11:06 PM:
>>>>>>>> In alt.home.repair, on Wed, 3 Apr 2024 22:28:36 -0400, ? Mighty
>>>>>>>> Wannabe
>>>>>>>> ? <@.> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Bob F wrote on 4/3/2024 9:58 PM:
>>>>>>>>>> On 4/3/2024 6:30 PM, ? Mighty Wannabe ? wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Ed P wrote on 4/3/2024 9:05 PM:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/3/2024 8:31 PM, ? Mighty Wannabe ? wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bob F wrote on 4/3/2024 7:59 PM:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/3/2024 3:02 PM, ? Mighty Wannabe ? wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> micky wrote on 4/3/2024 9:46 AM:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Can't find the thread about the Key Bridge being knocked
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> down in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Baltimore, but wanted to comment on the racist pigs
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> around the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> USA who
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> claimed it had something to do with seeking diversity in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> who the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> shipping company hires.   What nonsense.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Did you notice that the news kept mentioning the "pilot"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> instead
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of the "captain"? The captain didn't hit the Baltimore Key
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bridge. The "pilot" who was working for Baltimore was
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> steering
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the ship, not the captain. The pilot was hired to do just
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> because the pilot knows the water channel like the back of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> his
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hand. The pilot knows where the ship should avoid so that it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> won't run aground.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Baltimore authorities cannot sue the captain of the ship
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or owner
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of the ship, because the "pilot" who was steering the ship
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> worked
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for Baltimore.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The pilot did not hit the bridge, the ship hit the bridge,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> after
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it's power systems failed. You actually think that was the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> pilots
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fault?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> How would you like to have been the second pilot, who was
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> there
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> being trained?
>>>>>>>>>>>>> The Baltimore's pilot was at the helm. Good luck blaming anyone
>>>>>>>>>>>>> else for the accident. The US will have to pick up the tab for
>>>>>>>>>>>>> third party liability (people hurt/killed as a result of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> bridge
>>>>>>>>>>>>> collapse) and property damage (the bridge and the vehicles that
>>>>>>>>>>>>> fell into the water).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> How We Steer A Cargo Ship
>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3T-wFfPm37U
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> He was at the helm, but the helm did not work. Can't pin that
>>>>>>>>>>>> on him.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Nice video.  Did you notice in the last minute that the
>>>>>>>>>>>> engines were
>>>>>>>>>>>> running and making power?  The ship that hit the bridge did
>>>>>>>>>>>> not have
>>>>>>>>>>>> that luxury.
>>>>>>>>>>> Baltimore's pilot was at the helm. He might have accidentally
>>>>>>>>>>> killed
>>>>>>>>>>> the power by pushing the wrong button.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Are you Rod Speed??? You certainly have his stupid know it all
>>>>>>>>>> attitude.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I merely put forward the best, unbiased analysis of what caused the
>>>>>>>>> accident.
>>>>>>>> Might be unbiased, but definitely not the best analysis.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Other have answered pretty well but since you replied first to my
>>>>>>>> post,
>>>>>>>> I will take the bait.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If I were driving a Ford with 1000 miles on it, and the rack and
>>>>>>>> pinion
>>>>>>>> locked up so that I coudlnt' steer it, do you think I would be
>>>>>>>> liable
>>>>>>>> for the damages that followed or Ford would?
>>>>>>> You were driving your own car. How's that relevant to the case of
>>>>>>> the Baltimore harbour pilots at the helm of a strange (or not so
>>>>>>> familiar) ship?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It's the same here.  Assuming the engine could have been turned
>>>>>>>> off, and
>>>>>>>> that the pilot had the power to do that, and he did it, that
>>>>>>>> would make
>>>>>>>> the pilot and his employer liable. But you have to prove that by a
>>>>>>>> preponderance of the evidence.
>>>>>>> I think there is a black box in ships like that. I think they got
>>>>>>> the hold of the black box.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://www.businessinsider.com/baltimore-bridge-collapse-cargo-ship-black-box-recovered-2024-3
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It could also be that the owner of the ship didn't maintain the
>>>>>>>> engines
>>>>>>>> properly and that caused the engines to stop.  That would make
>>>>>>>> the owner
>>>>>>>> liable.
>>>>>>> It worked fine all over the world until the Baltimore harbour
>>>>>>> pilots took over the helm. I'd blame the pilots first.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It could be, I hear, that the fuel they used was bad and that
>>>>>>>> made the
>>>>>>>> engnine and the electrical generating engines stop. That could
>>>>>>>> make the
>>>>>>>> vendor of the fuel liable, unless maybe he took the standard
>>>>>>>> amount of
>>>>>>>> care but someone else not related to the fuel vendor intentionally
>>>>>>>> damaged the fuel.   Or it could be the fuel wholesaler or
>>>>>>>> producer made
>>>>>>>> bad fuel that fouled the engines.
>>>>>>> Bad fuel won't make the power go out and come back on.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It could be that none of those parties were negligent but it
>>>>>>>> turns out
>>>>>>>> the electical generating engines fail at a certain age, and it
>>>>>>>> was that
>>>>>>>> old but they buyers weren't warned.   The maker of the engines might
>>>>>>>> have known they fail at that age and not warned the buyers, or
>>>>>>>> maybe he
>>>>>>>> didn't know this.
>>>>>>> This does not explain why the power went out and came back on.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I'm sure there are other things that could have caused this.
>>>>>>> Fat finger pushing the wrong button?
>>>>>> The pilot never touches any buttons, other than perhaps the switch
>>>>>> on a microphone.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It's not clear from afar, and it's not even clear to those on the
>>>>>>>> scene,
>>>>>>>> if someone was at fault and if so, who it was.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You keep trying to make excuses for the Baltimore harbour pilots
>>>>>>> when their human error is the most likely culprit of this disaster.
>>>>>> You keep blaming the pilot, without an ounce of evidence or any
>>>>>> reasonable way a pilot could have caused the power failure(s).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> When the reports are made, equipment failure will most likely be
>>>>>> the cause, and the pilot is highly unlikely to be held responsible,
>>>>>> since there is nothing a pilot could do to cause equipment
>>>>>> failures. Some form of poor maintenance will likely be cited as the
>>>>>> cause, with crew operational mistakes being the most likely
>>>>>> alternative.
>>>>>>
>>>>> "There were two ship pilots aboard the ship as it left its berth in
>>>>> the Port of Baltimore. Can you tell us what ship pilots do?
>>>>>
>>>>> Post: Ship pilots are brought on board in what are considered
>>>>> restricted maneuverability or navigation areas. They are local
>>>>> experts who are usually certified by the state or federal government
>>>>> to provide advice to the master of the vessel as to how to control
>>>>> the vessel, safely and adequately, through the pilotage waters,
>>>>> which in this case would be down the river from the Port of Baltimore.
>>>>>
>>>>> Pilots are well practiced in close-quarters maneuvering, especially
>>>>> with tugboats and docking the vessel alongside the assigned berth.
>>>>>
>>>>> But a pilot doesn’t come aboard the ship and take control of it, do
>>>>> they?
>>>>>
>>>>> Post: They are just advisers to the captain, who is known as the
>>>>> “master.” The master still has full responsibility for the safe
>>>>> navigation of the vessel. So the pilot will meet the ship out at sea
>>>>> or at the dock if it’s in port and leaving to go to sea. They
>>>>> proceed up to the bridge. Usually they exchange greetings, and
>>>>> usually a little bit of ship’s swag is given, either a hat or
>>>>> something else, or at least a cup of coffee.
>>>>>
>>>>> They then set up their gear. With the electronics that we now have,
>>>>> they plug into the ship’s electronic chart data information system.
>>>>> And then they conduct the pilot exchange with the master of the
>>>>> vessel, where the master of the vessel describes where they are
>>>>> going, what the characteristics of the ship are, who’s on the
>>>>> bridge, what their first language is and the air draft of the
>>>>> vessel, which refers to how high out of the water the vessel is, so
>>>>> that you know whether you can take the ship under a bridge safely.
>>>>>
>>>>> Once that’s completed, the pilot then starts instructing the officer
>>>>> of the watch or the captain – those are usually the same person – in
>>>>> how to get to where they need to be to dock the ship, or undock the
>>>>> ship and bring it to sea. This instructing is done during complex
>>>>> maneuvers, not all the time. The pilot can also say he’s not going
>>>>> to do it, and can shut down their operations if conditions are
>>>>> unsafe or if they feel that the vessel is not in condition to be
>>>>> able to transit safely. That happens a lot, especially in fog.
>>>>>
>>>>> The ship pilot also interacts with the Coast Guard Vessel Traffic
>>>>> Service and other ships in the area, and coordinates with the
>>>>> tugboats and line handlers to be able to safely maneuver the vessel
>>>>> close to the pier or when a ship is leaving the berth."
>>>>>
>>>>> https://today.tamu.edu/2024/03/26/how-captains-and-harbor-pilots-safely-guide-ships-into-port/
>>>>>
>>>> Interesting description.
>>>>
>>>> -----
>>>> Stupid idea - that a pilot directly operates the controls of a ship
>>>> he has no experience operating. (If that is not completely obvious
>>>> read above.)
>>>>
>>>> Stupid idea - that there is a readily accessible easily operated
>>>> button on the bridge that will shut down the engines. (If I am
>>>> driving and push the car Run/Off button nothing happens.)
>>>>
>>>> Someone is competing for Ed's coveted Worst Post Ever award. With
>>>> stiff competition I don't think he has quite made it yet.
>>>>
>>> I may have accidentally deleted a Mighty Wannabe post, because I am a
>>> mouthbreathing idiot!!!
>>>
> Bud-- didn't say the words you put into his mouth in the line above.
> This is the second time I've seen in this thread that you've changed
> what the person before you posted. If you don't want to play by the
> rules, don't post here at all. Basically you're lying about what he
> said so how will anyone ever trust you?
>
>> Fear not!!!
>>
>>
>> This is my reply to ED P's post. Apparently a trainee pilot from
>> Baltimore port authority was handling all the maneuvers on the bridge of
>> the container ship, right until the crash:
>> https://www.thebaltimorebanner.com/baltimore/key-bridge-collapse-ship-pilot-LKDWFY237JFR5NCR7KXZIWRDVA/
>>
>>
>> The following paragraphs are excerpts from your link:
>>
>> #1
>> “The pilot ordered a hard left rudder, and dropped the port anchor to
>> try to keep the ship from moving right,” said Clayton L. Diamond,
>> executive director and general counsel for The American Pilots’
>> Association. “The pilot did everything he could to slow the ship.”
>>
>> #2
>> The Maryland pilot who guided the ship received years of training to
>> become a pilot, has a state license which requires knowledge of the
>> local waters and has more than a decade of experience. An apprentice
>> pilot was on board observing the pilot, but Diamond said he was new to
>> the pilot training program, having started on Feb. 1, and was not
>> involved in any of the decisions during the three minutes before the crash.
>>
>> From the above two paragraphs (apparently carefully crafted), I can
>> understand that there was a pilot and a trainee. The second paragraph
>> above pointed out that the trainee "was not involved in any of the
>> decisions during the three minutes before the crash". That implies that
>> the trainee was making the decisions and operating the controls on
>> his/her own all the time,
> It doesn't imply either of those things.

On 4/6/2024 10:41 PM, 😎 Wannabeatroll ✅ wrote:
>
> I think I am wasting my time. Fuck off.
>

Finally a victory.

Congratulations micky.

On 4/6/2024 10:50 PM, bud-- wrote:
> On 4/6/2024 10:41 PM, 😎 Wannabeatroll ✅ wrote:
>>
>> I think I am wasting my time. Fuck off.
>>
>
> Finally a victory.
>
> Congratulations micky.
>
>
>

It will be forgotten immediately.

Big thumb Wannabe Rod Speed posters NEVER accept anyone else's corrections.

But they always waste everyone else's time.

In alt.home.repair, on Sat, 6 Apr 2024 23:38:19 -0600, bud--
<null@void.com> wrote:

>On 4/6/2024 10:30 AM, Bob F wrote:
>> On 4/6/2024 9:06 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>>> Bob F <bobnospam@gmail.com> writes:
>>>> On 4/6/2024 9:21 AM, bud-- wrote:
>>>>> On 4/6/2024 1:49 AM, ? Mighty Wannabe ? wrote:
>>>
>>>>>> This is my reply to ED P's post. Apparently a trainee pilot from
>>>>>> Baltimore port authority was handling all the maneuvers on the bridge
>>>>>> of the container ship, right until the crash:
>>>>>
>>>>> Still unable to read and understand what is in Bob F's post
>>>>> Wannabeatrol
>>>>> repeats the same delusional bullshit.
>>>>>
>>>>> Pilots do not operate the ship controls.
>>>>
>>>> Big Thumb Wannabe Rod Speed is exactly performing as Rod Speed.
>>>> Repeating the exact same nonsense over and over as if that will make it
>>>> right despite the clear evidence he is wrong.
>>>
>>> It seems to be conflating "harbor pilot" with "airplane pilot".
>>>
>>>>
>>>> This Troll cannot learn, and is the perfect example of a classic
>>>> "know-it-all".
>>>
>>> Or just the classic example of a troll.
>
>I agree he has lost any credibility he may have had and is just another
>troll, either or both kinds.

The important word here is "lost". When Wanna first started posting
here, he was sort of stubborn, and even after both sides had made their
points, he wouldn't stop, but at that time his positions and arguments
were reasonable and he didn't get nasty when contradicted.

Something seems to have changed in the passing few weeks or months. When
he is nasty to me or others, I've taken it as permission to be tart in
my replies to him, but maybe something bad is bothering him at home, or
maybe he's in physical pain that a doctor could help him with.

Wannabe, do you need some help, to see a doctor or clergyman? Do you
think you've changed here? If so, it's not been for the better.

......

On 4/7/2024 7:57 AM, micky wrote:
> In alt.home.repair, on Sat, 6 Apr 2024 23:38:19 -0600, bud--
> <null@void.com> wrote:
>
>> On 4/6/2024 10:30 AM, Bob F wrote:
>>> On 4/6/2024 9:06 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>>>> Bob F <bobnospam@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>> On 4/6/2024 9:21 AM, bud-- wrote:
>>>>>> On 4/6/2024 1:49 AM, ? Mighty Wannabe ? wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>>> This is my reply to ED P's post. Apparently a trainee pilot from
>>>>>>> Baltimore port authority was handling all the maneuvers on the bridge
>>>>>>> of the container ship, right until the crash:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Still unable to read and understand what is in Bob F's post
>>>>>> Wannabeatrol
>>>>>> repeats the same delusional bullshit.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Pilots do not operate the ship controls.
>>>>>
>>>>> Big Thumb Wannabe Rod Speed is exactly performing as Rod Speed.
>>>>> Repeating the exact same nonsense over and over as if that will make it
>>>>> right despite the clear evidence he is wrong.
>>>>
>>>> It seems to be conflating "harbor pilot" with "airplane pilot".
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> This Troll cannot learn, and is the perfect example of a classic
>>>>> "know-it-all".
>>>>
>>>> Or just the classic example of a troll.
>>
>> I agree he has lost any credibility he may have had and is just another
>> troll, either or both kinds.
>
> The important word here is "lost". When Wanna first started posting
> here, he was sort of stubborn, and even after both sides had made their
> points, he wouldn't stop, but at that time his positions and arguments
> were reasonable and he didn't get nasty when contradicted.
>
> Something seems to have changed in the passing few weeks or months. When
> he is nasty to me or others, I've taken it as permission to be tart in
> my replies to him, but maybe something bad is bothering him at home, or
> maybe he's in physical pain that a doctor could help him with.
>
> Wannabe, do you need some help, to see a doctor or clergyman? Do you
> think you've changed here? If so, it's not been for the better.
>
> .....

He is behaving exactly as "Rod Speed" always did. Just a NIA. He NEVER
accepts anyone else's reasonable corrections.