On 4/5/2024 10:06 AM, 😎 Mighty Wannabe ✅ wrote:

>
> Here I repeat my previous reply to you:
>
> There is one thing very sinister about the aftermath of this incident.
> The Baltimore port authority was digging into all the details about the
> history of the ship, trying to pin blame on the ship, the ship owner, or
> the ship owner's parent company, but the Baltimore port authorities has
> never made any mention of the identities of the two pilots who were in
> charge of steering the ship through the water channel, their training,
> and the years of services. Don't you think it is odd? You'd think big
> boo-boo of this magnitude, the press would delve into the detail of the
> two pilots, and the public should know.
>
> Please mark my word. I suspect the Baltimore port authority is
> deliberately hiding something. The truth they want to hide is that the
> two pilots who ultimately should be responsible for steering the ship
> into the bridge are very likely new hires who hardly had, if any,
> previous experience in piloting before this accident. The two pilots
> might even be "extreme DEI hires": both might be young, black, female
> and gay.  ThinkKarine Jean-Pierre with pink and purple hair.
>

One video I saw they mentioned the pilots did everything right but the
investigation will take a long time.

If you were the pilot, would you want your name spread across the media?
You can be sure they would be getting death threats by some of the
nut-jobs out there.

So much for you DEI theory too.

https://www.thebaltimorebanner.com/baltimore/key-bridge-collapse-ship-pilot-LKDWFY237JFR5NCR7KXZIWRDVA/

The Maryland pilot who guided the ship received years of training to
become a pilot, has a state license which requires knowledge of the
local waters and has more than a decade of experience. An apprentice
pilot was on board observing the pilot, but Diamond said he was new to
the pilot training program, having started on Feb. 1, and was not
involved in any of the decisions during the three minutes before the crash.

Diamond said he has spoken with the pilot, who he declined to name, and
he is doing as well as can be expected given the traumatic event.

Ed P wrote on 4/5/2024 10:23 AM:
> On 4/5/2024 10:06 AM, 😎 Mighty Wannabe ✅ wrote:
>
>>
>> Here I repeat my previous reply to you:
>>
>> There is one thing very sinister about the aftermath of this
>> incident. The Baltimore port authority was digging into all the
>> details about the history of the ship, trying to pin blame on the
>> ship, the ship owner, or the ship owner's parent company, but the
>> Baltimore port authorities has never made any mention of the
>> identities of the two pilots who were in charge of steering the ship
>> through the water channel, their training, and the years of services.
>> Don't you think it is odd? You'd think big boo-boo of this magnitude,
>> the press would delve into the detail of the two pilots, and the
>> public should know.
>>
>> Please mark my word. I suspect the Baltimore port authority is
>> deliberately hiding something. The truth they want to hide is that
>> the two pilots who ultimately should be responsible for steering the
>> ship into the bridge are very likely new hires who hardly had, if
>> any, previous experience in piloting before this accident. The two
>> pilots might even be "extreme DEI hires": both might be young, black,
>> female and gay.  ThinkKarine Jean-Pierre with pink and purple hair.
>>
>
> One video I saw they mentioned the pilots did everything right but the
> investigation will take a long time.
>
> If you were the pilot, would you want your name spread across the
> media?  You can be sure they would be getting death threats by some of
> the nut-jobs out there.
>
> So much for you DEI theory too.
>
> https://www.thebaltimorebanner.com/baltimore/key-bridge-collapse-ship-pilot-LKDWFY237JFR5NCR7KXZIWRDVA/
>
>
> The Maryland pilot who guided the ship received years of training to
> become a pilot, has a state license which requires knowledge of the
> local waters and has more than a decade of experience. An apprentice
> pilot was on board observing the pilot, but Diamond said he was new to
> the pilot training program, having started on Feb. 1, and was not
> involved in any of the decisions during the three minutes before the
> crash.
>
> Diamond said he has spoken with the pilot, who he declined to name,
> and he is doing as well as can be expected given the traumatic event.
>

The following paragraphs are excerpts from your link:

#1
“The pilot ordered a hard left rudder, and dropped the port anchor to
try to keep the ship from moving right,” said Clayton L. Diamond,
executive director and general counsel for The American Pilots’
Association. “The pilot did everything he could to slow the ship.”

#2
The Maryland pilot who guided the ship received years of training to
become a pilot, has a state license which requires knowledge of the
local waters and has more than a decade of experience. An apprentice
pilot was on board observing the pilot, but Diamond said he was new to
the pilot training program, having started on Feb. 1, and was not
involved in any of the decisions during the three minutes before the crash.

From the above two paragraphs (apparently carefully crafted), I can
understand that there was a pilot and a trainee. The second paragraph
above pointed out that the trainee "was not involved in any of the
decisions during the three minutes before the crash". That implies that
the trainee was making the decisions and operating the controls on
his/her own all the time, but was following orders from the pilot during
the three minutes before the crash. Everybody should understand that
when a pilot and a trainee pilot are present on the bridge of the ship,
the trainee pilot would be operating the controls (theoretically under
the supervision of the pilot, but generally that's not the case in real
life. The pilot would be drinking coffee, walking around, and yapping
with other people on the bridge). The trainee operating the controls is
how the trainee gets the experience in operating the controls.

From the first paragraph: "the pilot ordered a hard left rudder,
dropped the port anchor...". Apparently the pilot ordered the trainee to
drop the "port" anchor. From the crash video, the ship jerked to the
right and hit the bridge. If really the "port" anchor was dropped, the
ship would have jerked to the left. Apparently the trainee did not
understand "port" means left, and "starboard" means right, and dropped
the wrong anchor.

The ship's black box should reveal what the hell the trainee had done
and what buttons were pushed. I hope they have surveillance video of the
inside of the ship's bridge to see what the hell the pilot and the
trainee were doing the whole time.

In alt.home.repair, on Thu, 4 Apr 2024 17:58:20 -0400, Ed P
<esp@snet.xxx> wrote:

>Hey look, no "off" button on the bridge
>
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cji10d3YPss&ab_channel=WRAL

Same video:
https://youtu.be/Cji10d3YPss?t=431

"At the time the Francis Scott Key bridge was constructed in the late
'70's, container ships like this simply didn't exist. They were not
being built at that size and scale in those days".

That's what I said in an earlier post. Someone contradicted me, but the
reporter here says that I'm right.

In alt.home.repair, on Fri, 5 Apr 2024 10:06:48 -0400, ? Mighty Wannabe
? <@.> wrote:

>micky wrote on 4/5/2024 9:45 AM:
>> In alt.home.repair, on Fri, 5 Apr 2024 08:56:01 -0400, ? Mighty Wannabe
>> ? <@.> wrote:
>>
>>> micky wrote on 4/5/2024 7:50 AM:
>>>> In alt.home.repair, on Fri, 5 Apr 2024 00:57:57 -0400, ? Mighty Wannabe
>>>> ? <@.> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> micky wrote on 4/4/2024 8:11 PM:
>>>>>> In alt.home.repair, on Wed, 3 Apr 2024 23:36:44 -0400, ? Mighty Wannabe
>>>>>> ? <@.> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It's not clear from afar, and it's not even clear to those on the scene,
>>>>>>>> if someone was at fault and if so, who it was.
>>>>>>> You keep trying to make excuses for the Baltimore harbour pilots when
>>>>>>> their human error is the most likely culprit of this disaster.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm not making excuses for Baltiomre pilots. I'm saying you don't know
>>>>>> a darn thing about how the law works. You show that over and over
>>>>>> again.
>>>>> You are definitely making excuses for Baltimore pilots. You have the
>>>>> attitude of "my boys can do no wrong" and try to blame everything but
>>>>> the Baltimore pilots running the ship into the bridge.
>>>> You're funny. And you also forgot that the power failed on the boat.
>>>> You try steering a ship wihtout any power.
>>> I have posted about this to another poster. The two pilot might have hit
>>> the wrong button and turned off the power.
>>>
>>> The press mentioned the ship "throwing an anchor". My explanation is
>>> that when the anchor hit the sea floor, the anchor chain would pull on
>>> the ship. Since the anchor is attached to the bow of the ship, the
>>> pulling force from the anchor chain would pull the ship to one side,
>>> depending on which side the anchor came from. In this case, you can see from the accident video that the ship suddenly jerked to the right hand side (starboard side) and hit the bridge. But in one news article,
>>> reportedly the pilot dropped the anchor on the "port" side. If this was
>>> the case, the ship's bow should have jerked to the left side and avoided
>>> hitting the bridge. Apparently the pilots couldn't tell which side of
>>> the ship is called "port", and which side of the ship is called
>>> "starboard", and dropped the anchor on the wrong side.
>>>
>> Loads of things might have happened. The problems is that you have no
>> idea what happened and yet you write as if you do. No amount of
>> detailed speculation on your part changes that.

This was meant to be my last word on this subject and you're just
repeating yourself now, so it will continue to be my last word.

Except that iirc you had predicted who will be held legally responsible.
We got away from that topic, but I want to point out that you were wrong
there for the same reason. That is, speculation from a distance does
not decide the facts.

Your reply is unchanged below:
>
>
>You still have the "my boys can do no wrong" attitude. The harbour
>pilots were in control of the ship. Steering the ship out of dangerous
>waters is what they were there for. Their mistakes are the the most
>likely culprit.
>
>Here I repeat my previous reply to you:
>
>There is one thing very sinister about the aftermath of this incident.
>The Baltimore port authority was digging into all the details about the
>history of the ship, trying to pin blame on the ship, the ship owner, or
>the ship owner's parent company, but the Baltimore port authorities has
>never made any mention of the identities of the two pilots who were in
>charge of steering the ship through the water channel, their training,
>and the years of services. Don't you think it is odd? You'd think big
>boo-boo of this magnitude, the press would delve into the detail of the
>two pilots, and the public should know.
>
>Please mark my word. I suspect the Baltimore port authority is
>deliberately hiding something. The truth they want to hide is that the
>two pilots who ultimately should be responsible for steering the ship
>into the bridge are very likely new hires who hardly had, if any,
>previous experience in piloting before this accident. The two pilots
>might even be "extreme DEI hires": both might be young, black, female
>and gay.  ThinkKarine Jean-Pierre with pink and purple hair.
>
>

In alt.home.repair, on Fri, 5 Apr 2024 08:39:34 -0400, ? Mighty Wannabe
? <@.> wrote:

>micky wrote on 4/5/2024 7:55 AM:
>> In alt.home.repair, on Fri, 5 Apr 2024 00:43:44 -0400, ? Mighty Wannabe
>> ? <@.> wrote:
>>
>>> micky wrote on 4/4/2024 10:06 PM:
>>>> In alt.home.repair, on Thu, 4 Apr 2024 10:52:10 -0400, ? Mighty Wannabe
>>>> ? <@.> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Ed P wrote on 4/4/2024 8:58 AM:
>>>>>> On 4/4/2024 6:18 AM, ? Mighty Wannabe ? wrote:
>>>>>>> rbowman wrote on 4/4/2024 1:23 AM:
>>>>>>>> On Wed, 3 Apr 2024 23:52:58 -0400, ? Mighty Wannabe ? wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The container ship was fine sailing the seven seas until the Baltimore
>>>>>>>>> harbour pilots laid their hands on it.
>>>>>>>> https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/investigations/2024/03/26/baltimore-
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> bridge-collapse-ship-dali/73105394007/
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "The ship in Tuesday's crash, Dali, was involved in at least one prior
>>>>>>>> accident when it collided with a shipping pier in Belgium.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That 2016 incident occurred as the Dali was leaving port in Antwerp and
>>>>>>>> struck a loading pier made of stone, causing damage to the ship’s
>>>>>>>> stern,
>>>>>>>> according to VesselFinder.com, a site that tracks ships across the
>>>>>>>> world.
>>>>>>>> An investigation determined a mistake made by the ship’s master and
>>>>>>>> pilot
>>>>>>>> was to blame.
>>>>>>> Another pilot mistake. Belgium also hires "Homer Simpson"-type of
>>>>>>> pilots. The "stern" of a ship is the rear-end of the ship. Apparently
>>>>>>> the pilot put the ship in reverse by mistake and rear-ended ship
>>>>>>> against the pier.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Apparently you are wrong again.  Do you know how ships steer? Unlike a
>>>>>> car, it is the the back, not the front.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> A little knowledge is a dangerous thing. A ship's propeller can spin
>>>>> backward, just like your car tire can spin backward when in reverse
>>>>> gear. Are you really that dumb, or merely trying to drive up your number
>>>>> of posts to catch up to Peeler's?
>>>> Ad hominems don't help your image. Or convince anyone, since everyone
>>>> here knows that Ed is not dumb at all.
>>>>
>>>> And how come you replied to Ed's post twice and each time you snipped
>>>> the link he gave which contradicted your theory, portrayed as apparent,
>>>> that the "pilot put the ship in reverse by mistake and rear-ended ship
>>>> against the pier". That's not what the link Ed posted said. is that why
>>>> you snipped it?
>>>>
>>>> Here it is again:
>>>> https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/mar/26/baltimore-bridge-ship-previous-collision-antwerp-2016
>>>>
>>> What has the ship's previous collision got to do with this collision?
>>> The ship was under the control of harbour pilots in previous collision.
>>>
>> You were talking about the previous collision when you said that..
>>
>> Bowman said:
>>>> That 2016 incident occurred as the Dali was leaving port in Antwerp and
>>>> struck a loading pier made of stone, causing damage to the ship’s stern,
>>>> according to VesselFinder.com, a site that tracks ships across the world.
>>>> An investigation determined a mistake made by the ship’s master and pilot
>>>> was to blame.
>> And you said:
>>> Another pilot mistake. Belgium also hires "Homer Simpson"-type of
>>> pilots. The "stern" of a ship is the rear-end of the ship. Apparently
>>> the pilot put the ship in reverse by mistake and rear-ended ship against
>>> the pier.
>> But the link you snipped contradicted you.
>
>It did not contradict me. Here I quote from rbowman's link:

Quoting more of Bomwan's text does not help you when the problem is you
were contradicted by Ed's link. I don't remember if Bowman
contradicted you but I never said he did. It's Ed's link that
contradicted you, just like I said. Get it?

>"Under maritime law, all foreign flagged vessels must be piloted into
>state ports by a state licensed pilot so the Dali's pilot is licensed
>byAssociation of Maryland Pilots."
>
>There is one thing very sinister about the aftermath of this incident.
>The Baltimore port authority was digging into all the details about the
>history of the ship, trying to pin blame on the ship, the ship owner, or
>the ship owner's parent company, but the Baltimore port authorities has
>never made any mention of the identities of the two pilots who were in
>charge of steering the ship through the water channel, their training,
>and the years of services. Don't you think it is odd? You'd think big
>boo-boo of this magnitude, the press would delve into the detail of the
>two pilots, and the public should know.
>
>Please mark my word. I suspect the Baltimore port authority is
>deliberately hiding something. The truth they want to hide is that the
>two pilots who ultimately should be responsible for steering the ship
>into the bridge are very likely new hires who hardly had, if any,
>previous experience in piloting before this accident. The two pilots
>might even be "extreme DEI hires": both might be young, black, female
>and gay.  ThinkKarine Jean-Pierre with pink and purple hair.
>
>

In alt.home.repair, on Wed, 3 Apr 2024 23:53:24 -0400, Ed P
<esp@snet.xxx> wrote:

>On 4/3/2024 11:47 PM, 😎 Mighty Wannabe ✅ wrote:
>> Ed P wrote on 4/3/2024 11:07 PM:
>>> On 4/3/2024 10:26 PM, 😎 Mighty Wannabe ✅ wrote:
>>>> Ed P wrote on 4/3/2024 9:51 PM:
>>>>> On 4/3/2024 9:30 PM, 😎 Mighty Wannabe ✅ wrote:
>>>>>> Ed P wrote on 4/3/2024 9:05 PM:
>>>>>>> On 4/3/2024 8:31 PM, 😎 Mighty Wannabe ✅ wrote:
>>>>>>>> Bob F wrote on 4/3/2024 7:59 PM:
>>>>>>>>> On 4/3/2024 3:02 PM, 😎 Mighty Wannabe ✅ wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> micky wrote on 4/3/2024 9:46 AM:
>>>>>>>>>>> Can't find the thread about the Key Bridge being knocked down in
>>>>>>>>>>> Baltimore, but wanted to comment on the racist pigs around the
>>>>>>>>>>> USA who
>>>>>>>>>>> claimed it had something to do with seeking diversity in who the
>>>>>>>>>>> shipping company hires.   What nonsense.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Did you notice that the news kept mentioning the "pilot"
>>>>>>>>>> instead of the "captain"? The captain didn't hit the Baltimore
>>>>>>>>>> Key Bridge. The "pilot" who was working for Baltimore was
>>>>>>>>>> steering the ship, not the captain. The pilot was hired to do
>>>>>>>>>> just that, because the pilot knows the water channel like the
>>>>>>>>>> back of his hand. The pilot knows where the ship should avoid
>>>>>>>>>> so that it won't run aground.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Baltimore authorities cannot sue the captain of the ship or
>>>>>>>>>> owner of the ship, because the "pilot" who was steering the
>>>>>>>>>> ship worked for Baltimore.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The pilot did not hit the bridge, the ship hit the bridge, after
>>>>>>>>> it's power systems failed. You actually think that was the
>>>>>>>>> pilots fault?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> How would you like to have been the second pilot, who was there
>>>>>>>>> being trained?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The Baltimore's pilot was at the helm. Good luck blaming anyone
>>>>>>>> else for the accident. The US will have to pick up the tab for
>>>>>>>> third party liability (people hurt/killed as a result of the
>>>>>>>> bridge collapse) and property damage (the bridge and the vehicles
>>>>>>>> that fell into the water).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> How We Steer A Cargo Ship
>>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3T-wFfPm37U
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> He was at the helm, but the helm did not work.  Can't pin that on
>>>>>>> him.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Nice video.  Did you notice in the last minute that the engines
>>>>>>> were running and making power?  The ship that hit the bridge did
>>>>>>> not have that luxury.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Baltimore's pilot was at the helm. He might have accidentally
>>>>>> killed the power by pushing the wrong button.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> No, does not work like that.  Not the same as turning off the key in
>>>>> your car ignition.
>>>>
>>>> The ship's power went out and came back on. Someone realized the
>>>> mistake and corrected it. That's the logical explanation.
>>>>
>>>> Homer Simpson was at the helm.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Have you ever been on a ship?  Ever see the power plant?
>>>
>>> The pilot did not hit the off button.
>>
>> Your psychic power determined that?
>
>No, my knowledge of ships did.

But it was Wannabe's psychic power that told him and us that he did hit
the button.

I wonder if Wannabe can bend spoons with his psychic power.

micky wrote on 4/5/2024 12:21 PM:
> In alt.home.repair, on Thu, 4 Apr 2024 17:58:20 -0400, Ed P
> <esp@snet.xxx> wrote:
>
>> Hey look, no "off" button on the bridge
>>
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cji10d3YPss&ab_channel=WRAL
> Same video:
> https://youtu.be/Cji10d3YPss?t=431
>
> "At the time the Francis Scott Key bridge was constructed in the late
> '70's, container ships like this simply didn't exist. They were not
> being built at that size and scale in those days".
>
> That's what I said in an earlier post. Someone contradicted me, but the
> reporter here says that I'm right.

That will pile more guilt on the Baltimore port authority. If their
infrastructure cannot handle modern container ships, they should not
handle modern container ships.

You are still showing your "my boys can do no wrong" attitude.

micky wrote on 4/5/2024 12:27 PM:
> In alt.home.repair, on Fri, 5 Apr 2024 10:06:48 -0400, ? Mighty Wannabe
> ? <@.> wrote:
>
>> micky wrote on 4/5/2024 9:45 AM:
>>> In alt.home.repair, on Fri, 5 Apr 2024 08:56:01 -0400, ? Mighty Wannabe
>>> ? <@.> wrote:
>>>
>>>> micky wrote on 4/5/2024 7:50 AM:
>>>>> In alt.home.repair, on Fri, 5 Apr 2024 00:57:57 -0400, ? Mighty Wannabe
>>>>> ? <@.> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> micky wrote on 4/4/2024 8:11 PM:
>>>>>>> In alt.home.repair, on Wed, 3 Apr 2024 23:36:44 -0400, ? Mighty Wannabe
>>>>>>> ? <@.> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> It's not clear from afar, and it's not even clear to those on the scene,
>>>>>>>>> if someone was at fault and if so, who it was.
>>>>>>>> You keep trying to make excuses for the Baltimore harbour pilots when
>>>>>>>> their human error is the most likely culprit of this disaster.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm not making excuses for Baltiomre pilots. I'm saying you don't know
>>>>>>> a darn thing about how the law works. You show that over and over
>>>>>>> again.
>>>>>> You are definitely making excuses for Baltimore pilots. You have the
>>>>>> attitude of "my boys can do no wrong" and try to blame everything but
>>>>>> the Baltimore pilots running the ship into the bridge.
>>>>> You're funny. And you also forgot that the power failed on the boat.
>>>>> You try steering a ship wihtout any power.
>>>> I have posted about this to another poster. The two pilot might have hit
>>>> the wrong button and turned off the power.
>>>>
>>>> The press mentioned the ship "throwing an anchor". My explanation is
>>>> that when the anchor hit the sea floor, the anchor chain would pull on
>>>> the ship. Since the anchor is attached to the bow of the ship, the
>>>> pulling force from the anchor chain would pull the ship to one side,
>>>> depending on which side the anchor came from. In this case, you can see from the accident video that the ship suddenly jerked to the right hand side (starboard side) and hit the bridge. But in one news article,
>>>> reportedly the pilot dropped the anchor on the "port" side. If this was
>>>> the case, the ship's bow should have jerked to the left side and avoided
>>>> hitting the bridge. Apparently the pilots couldn't tell which side of
>>>> the ship is called "port", and which side of the ship is called
>>>> "starboard", and dropped the anchor on the wrong side.
>>>>
>>> Loads of things might have happened. The problems is that you have no
>>> idea what happened and yet you write as if you do. No amount of
>>> detailed speculation on your part changes that.
> This was meant to be my last word on this subject and you're just
> repeating yourself now, so it will continue to be my last word.
>
> Except that iirc you had predicted who will be held legally responsible.
> We got away from that topic, but I want to point out that you were wrong
> there for the same reason. That is, speculation from a distance does
> not decide the facts.
>
> Your reply is unchanged below:
>>
>> You still have the "my boys can do no wrong" attitude. The harbour
>> pilots were in control of the ship. Steering the ship out of dangerous
>> waters is what they were there for. Their mistakes are the the most
>> likely culprit.
>>
>> Here I repeat my previous reply to you:
>>
>> There is one thing very sinister about the aftermath of this incident.
>> The Baltimore port authority was digging into all the details about the
>> history of the ship, trying to pin blame on the ship, the ship owner, or
>> the ship owner's parent company, but the Baltimore port authorities has
>> never made any mention of the identities of the two pilots who were in
>> charge of steering the ship through the water channel, their training,
>> and the years of services. Don't you think it is odd? You'd think big
>> boo-boo of this magnitude, the press would delve into the detail of the
>> two pilots, and the public should know.
>>
>> Please mark my word. I suspect the Baltimore port authority is
>> deliberately hiding something. The truth they want to hide is that the
>> two pilots who ultimately should be responsible for steering the ship
>> into the bridge are very likely new hires who hardly had, if any,
>> previous experience in piloting before this accident. The two pilots
>> might even be "extreme DEI hires": both might be young, black, female
>> and gay.  ThinkKarine Jean-Pierre with pink and purple hair.
>>
>>

This is my reply to ED P's post. Apparently a trainee pilot from
Baltimore port authority was handling all the maneuvers on the bridge of
the container ship, right until the crash:

https://www.thebaltimorebanner.com/baltimore/key-bridge-collapse-ship-pilot-LKDWFY237JFR5NCR7KXZIWRDVA/

The following paragraphs are excerpts from your link:

#1
“The pilot ordered a hard left rudder, and dropped the port anchor to
try to keep the ship from moving right,” said Clayton L. Diamond,
executive director and general counsel for The American Pilots’
Association. “The pilot did everything he could to slow the ship.”

#2
The Maryland pilot who guided the ship received years of training to
become a pilot, has a state license which requires knowledge of the
local waters and has more than a decade of experience. An apprentice
pilot was on board observing the pilot, but Diamond said he was new to
the pilot training program, having started on Feb. 1, and was not
involved in any of the decisions during the three minutes before the crash.

From the above two paragraphs (apparently carefully crafted), I can
understand that there was a pilot and a trainee. The second paragraph
above pointed out that the trainee "was not involved in any of the
decisions during the three minutes before the crash". That implies that
the trainee was making the decisions and operating the controls on
his/her own all the time, but was following orders from the pilot during
the three minutes before the crash. Everybody should understand that
when a pilot and a trainee pilot are present on the bridge of the ship,
the trainee pilot would be operating the controls (theoretically under
the supervision of the pilot, but generally that's not the case in real
life. The pilot would be drinking coffee, walking around, and yapping
with other people on the bridge). The trainee operating the controls is
how the trainee gets the experience in operating the controls.

From the first paragraph: "the pilot ordered a hard left rudder,
dropped the port anchor...". Apparently the pilot ordered the trainee to
drop the "port" anchor. From the crash video, the ship jerked to the
right and hit the bridge. If really the "port" anchor was dropped, the
ship would have jerked to the left. Apparently the trainee did not
understand "port" means left, and "starboard" means right, and dropped
the wrong anchor.

The ship's black box should reveal what the hell the trainee had done
and what buttons were pushed. I hope they have surveillance video of the
inside of the ship's bridge to see what the hell the pilot and the
trainee were doing the whole time.

micky wrote on 4/5/2024 12:32 PM:
> In alt.home.repair, on Fri, 5 Apr 2024 08:39:34 -0400, ? Mighty Wannabe
> ? <@.> wrote:
>
>> micky wrote on 4/5/2024 7:55 AM:
>>> In alt.home.repair, on Fri, 5 Apr 2024 00:43:44 -0400, ? Mighty Wannabe
>>> ? <@.> wrote:
>>>
>>>> micky wrote on 4/4/2024 10:06 PM:
>>>>> In alt.home.repair, on Thu, 4 Apr 2024 10:52:10 -0400, ? Mighty Wannabe
>>>>> ? <@.> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Ed P wrote on 4/4/2024 8:58 AM:
>>>>>>> On 4/4/2024 6:18 AM, ? Mighty Wannabe ? wrote:
>>>>>>>> rbowman wrote on 4/4/2024 1:23 AM:
>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 3 Apr 2024 23:52:58 -0400, ? Mighty Wannabe ? wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The container ship was fine sailing the seven seas until the Baltimore
>>>>>>>>>> harbour pilots laid their hands on it.
>>>>>>>>> https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/investigations/2024/03/26/baltimore-
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> bridge-collapse-ship-dali/73105394007/
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> "The ship in Tuesday's crash, Dali, was involved in at least one prior
>>>>>>>>> accident when it collided with a shipping pier in Belgium.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> That 2016 incident occurred as the Dali was leaving port in Antwerp and
>>>>>>>>> struck a loading pier made of stone, causing damage to the ship’s
>>>>>>>>> stern,
>>>>>>>>> according to VesselFinder.com, a site that tracks ships across the
>>>>>>>>> world.
>>>>>>>>> An investigation determined a mistake made by the ship’s master and
>>>>>>>>> pilot
>>>>>>>>> was to blame.
>>>>>>>> Another pilot mistake. Belgium also hires "Homer Simpson"-type of
>>>>>>>> pilots. The "stern" of a ship is the rear-end of the ship. Apparently
>>>>>>>> the pilot put the ship in reverse by mistake and rear-ended ship
>>>>>>>> against the pier.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Apparently you are wrong again.  Do you know how ships steer? Unlike a
>>>>>>> car, it is the the back, not the front.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> A little knowledge is a dangerous thing. A ship's propeller can spin
>>>>>> backward, just like your car tire can spin backward when in reverse
>>>>>> gear. Are you really that dumb, or merely trying to drive up your number
>>>>>> of posts to catch up to Peeler's?
>>>>> Ad hominems don't help your image. Or convince anyone, since everyone
>>>>> here knows that Ed is not dumb at all.
>>>>>
>>>>> And how come you replied to Ed's post twice and each time you snipped
>>>>> the link he gave which contradicted your theory, portrayed as apparent,
>>>>> that the "pilot put the ship in reverse by mistake and rear-ended ship
>>>>> against the pier". That's not what the link Ed posted said. is that why
>>>>> you snipped it?
>>>>>
>>>>> Here it is again:
>>>>> https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/mar/26/baltimore-bridge-ship-previous-collision-antwerp-2016
>>>>>
>>>> What has the ship's previous collision got to do with this collision?
>>>> The ship was under the control of harbour pilots in previous collision.
>>>>
>>> You were talking about the previous collision when you said that..
>>>
>>> Bowman said:
>>>>> That 2016 incident occurred as the Dali was leaving port in Antwerp and
>>>>> struck a loading pier made of stone, causing damage to the ship’s stern,
>>>>> according to VesselFinder.com, a site that tracks ships across the world.
>>>>> An investigation determined a mistake made by the ship’s master and pilot
>>>>> was to blame.
>>> And you said:
>>>> Another pilot mistake. Belgium also hires "Homer Simpson"-type of
>>>> pilots. The "stern" of a ship is the rear-end of the ship. Apparently
>>>> the pilot put the ship in reverse by mistake and rear-ended ship against
>>>> the pier.
>>> But the link you snipped contradicted you.
>> It did not contradict me. Here I quote from rbowman's link:
> Quoting more of Bomwan's text does not help you when the problem is you
> were contradicted by Ed's link. I don't remember if Bowman
> contradicted you but I never said he did. It's Ed's link that
> contradicted you, just like I said. Get it?
>
>
>
>> "Under maritime law, all foreign flagged vessels must be piloted into
>> state ports by a state licensed pilot so the Dali's pilot is licensed
>> byAssociation of Maryland Pilots."
>>
>> There is one thing very sinister about the aftermath of this incident.
>> The Baltimore port authority was digging into all the details about the
>> history of the ship, trying to pin blame on the ship, the ship owner, or
>> the ship owner's parent company, but the Baltimore port authorities has
>> never made any mention of the identities of the two pilots who were in
>> charge of steering the ship through the water channel, their training,
>> and the years of services. Don't you think it is odd? You'd think big
>> boo-boo of this magnitude, the press would delve into the detail of the
>> two pilots, and the public should know.
>>
>> Please mark my word. I suspect the Baltimore port authority is
>> deliberately hiding something. The truth they want to hide is that the
>> two pilots who ultimately should be responsible for steering the ship
>> into the bridge are very likely new hires who hardly had, if any,
>> previous experience in piloting before this accident. The two pilots
>> might even be "extreme DEI hires": both might be young, black, female
>> and gay.  ThinkKarine Jean-Pierre with pink and purple hair.
>>
>>

You can plug your ears and close your eyes all you want. Of course you
want to bail out, because I am right, as usually.

This is my reply to ED P's post. Apparently a trainee pilot from
Baltimore port authority was handling all the maneuvers on the bridge of
the container ship, right until the crash:

https://www.thebaltimorebanner.com/baltimore/key-bridge-collapse-ship-pilot-LKDWFY237JFR5NCR7KXZIWRDVA/

The following paragraphs are excerpts from your link:

#1
“The pilot ordered a hard left rudder, and dropped the port anchor to
try to keep the ship from moving right,” said Clayton L. Diamond,
executive director and general counsel for The American Pilots’
Association. “The pilot did everything he could to slow the ship.”

#2
The Maryland pilot who guided the ship received years of training to
become a pilot, has a state license which requires knowledge of the
local waters and has more than a decade of experience. An apprentice
pilot was on board observing the pilot, but Diamond said he was new to
the pilot training program, having started on Feb. 1, and was not
involved in any of the decisions during the three minutes before the crash.

From the above two paragraphs (apparently carefully crafted), I can
understand that there was a pilot and a trainee. The second paragraph
above pointed out that the trainee "was not involved in any of the
decisions during the three minutes before the crash". That implies that
the trainee was making the decisions and operating the controls on
his/her own all the time, but was following orders from the pilot during
the three minutes before the crash. Everybody should understand that
when a pilot and a trainee pilot are present on the bridge of the ship,
the trainee pilot would be operating the controls (theoretically under
the supervision of the pilot, but generally that's not the case in real
life. The pilot would be drinking coffee, walking around, and yapping
with other people on the bridge). The trainee operating the controls is
how the trainee gets the experience in operating the controls.

From the first paragraph: "the pilot ordered a hard left rudder,
dropped the port anchor...". Apparently the pilot ordered the trainee to
drop the "port" anchor. From the crash video, the ship jerked to the
right and hit the bridge. If really the "port" anchor was dropped, the
ship would have jerked to the left. Apparently the trainee did not
understand "port" means left, and "starboard" means right, and dropped
the wrong anchor.

micky wrote on 4/5/2024 12:35 PM:
> In alt.home.repair, on Wed, 3 Apr 2024 23:53:24 -0400, Ed P
> <esp@snet.xxx> wrote:
>
>> On 4/3/2024 11:47 PM, 😎 Mighty Wannabe ✅ wrote:
>>> Ed P wrote on 4/3/2024 11:07 PM:
>>>> On 4/3/2024 10:26 PM, 😎 Mighty Wannabe ✅ wrote:
>>>>> Ed P wrote on 4/3/2024 9:51 PM:
>>>>>> On 4/3/2024 9:30 PM, 😎 Mighty Wannabe ✅ wrote:
>>>>>>> Ed P wrote on 4/3/2024 9:05 PM:
>>>>>>>> On 4/3/2024 8:31 PM, 😎 Mighty Wannabe ✅ wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Bob F wrote on 4/3/2024 7:59 PM:
>>>>>>>>>> On 4/3/2024 3:02 PM, 😎 Mighty Wannabe ✅ wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> micky wrote on 4/3/2024 9:46 AM:
>>>>>>>>>>>> Can't find the thread about the Key Bridge being knocked down in
>>>>>>>>>>>> Baltimore, but wanted to comment on the racist pigs around the
>>>>>>>>>>>> USA who
>>>>>>>>>>>> claimed it had something to do with seeking diversity in who the
>>>>>>>>>>>> shipping company hires.   What nonsense.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Did you notice that the news kept mentioning the "pilot"
>>>>>>>>>>> instead of the "captain"? The captain didn't hit the Baltimore
>>>>>>>>>>> Key Bridge. The "pilot" who was working for Baltimore was
>>>>>>>>>>> steering the ship, not the captain. The pilot was hired to do
>>>>>>>>>>> just that, because the pilot knows the water channel like the
>>>>>>>>>>> back of his hand. The pilot knows where the ship should avoid
>>>>>>>>>>> so that it won't run aground.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Baltimore authorities cannot sue the captain of the ship or
>>>>>>>>>>> owner of the ship, because the "pilot" who was steering the
>>>>>>>>>>> ship worked for Baltimore.
>>>>>>>>>> The pilot did not hit the bridge, the ship hit the bridge, after
>>>>>>>>>> it's power systems failed. You actually think that was the
>>>>>>>>>> pilots fault?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> How would you like to have been the second pilot, who was there
>>>>>>>>>> being trained?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The Baltimore's pilot was at the helm. Good luck blaming anyone
>>>>>>>>> else for the accident. The US will have to pick up the tab for
>>>>>>>>> third party liability (people hurt/killed as a result of the
>>>>>>>>> bridge collapse) and property damage (the bridge and the vehicles
>>>>>>>>> that fell into the water).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> How We Steer A Cargo Ship
>>>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3T-wFfPm37U
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> He was at the helm, but the helm did not work.  Can't pin that on
>>>>>>>> him.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Nice video.  Did you notice in the last minute that the engines
>>>>>>>> were running and making power?  The ship that hit the bridge did
>>>>>>>> not have that luxury.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Baltimore's pilot was at the helm. He might have accidentally
>>>>>>> killed the power by pushing the wrong button.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> No, does not work like that.  Not the same as turning off the key in
>>>>>> your car ignition.
>>>>> The ship's power went out and came back on. Someone realized the
>>>>> mistake and corrected it. That's the logical explanation.
>>>>>
>>>>> Homer Simpson was at the helm.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> Have you ever been on a ship?  Ever see the power plant?
>>>>
>>>> The pilot did not hit the off button.
>>> Your psychic power determined that?
>> No, my knowledge of ships did.
> But it was Wannabe's psychic power that told him and us that he did hit
> the button.
>
> I wonder if Wannabe can bend spoons with his psychic power.

I know you try to be funny. Feel free to help yourself.

You can plug your ears and close your eyes all you want. Of course you
want to bail out, because I am right, as usually.

This is my reply to ED P's post. Apparently a trainee pilot from
Baltimore port authority was handling all the maneuvers on the bridge of
the container ship, right until the crash:

https://www.thebaltimorebanner.com/baltimore/key-bridge-collapse-ship-pilot-LKDWFY237JFR5NCR7KXZIWRDVA/

The following paragraphs are excerpts from your link:

#1
“The pilot ordered a hard left rudder, and dropped the port anchor to
try to keep the ship from moving right,” said Clayton L. Diamond,
executive director and general counsel for The American Pilots’
Association. “The pilot did everything he could to slow the ship.”

#2
The Maryland pilot who guided the ship received years of training to
become a pilot, has a state license which requires knowledge of the
local waters and has more than a decade of experience. An apprentice
pilot was on board observing the pilot, but Diamond said he was new to
the pilot training program, having started on Feb. 1, and was not
involved in any of the decisions during the three minutes before the crash.

From the above two paragraphs (apparently carefully crafted), I can
understand that there was a pilot and a trainee. The second paragraph
above pointed out that the trainee "was not involved in any of the
decisions during the three minutes before the crash". That implies that
the trainee was making the decisions and operating the controls on
his/her own all the time, but was following orders from the pilot during
the three minutes before the crash. Everybody should understand that
when a pilot and a trainee pilot are present on the bridge of the ship,
the trainee pilot would be operating the controls (theoretically under
the supervision of the pilot, but generally that's not the case in real
life. The pilot would be drinking coffee, walking around, and yapping
with other people on the bridge). The trainee operating the controls is
how the trainee gets the experience in operating the controls.

From the first paragraph: "the pilot ordered a hard left rudder,
dropped the port anchor...". Apparently the pilot ordered the trainee to
drop the "port" anchor. From the crash video, the ship jerked to the
right and hit the bridge. If really the "port" anchor was dropped, the
ship would have jerked to the left. Apparently the trainee did not
understand "port" means left, and "starboard" means right, and dropped
the wrong anchor.

The ship's black box should reveal what the hell the trainee had done
and what buttons were pushed. I hope they have surveillance video of the
inside of the ship's bridge to see what the hell the pilot and the
trainee were doing the whole time.

On 4/5/2024 12:46 PM, 😎 Mighty Wannabe ✅ wrote:
ow the trainee gets the experience in operating the controls.
>
> From the first paragraph: "the pilot ordered a hard left rudder,
> dropped the port anchor...". Apparently the pilot ordered the trainee to
> drop the "port" anchor. From the crash video, the ship jerked to the
> right and hit the bridge. If really the "port" anchor was dropped, the
> ship would have jerked to the left. Apparently the trainee did not
> understand "port" means left, and "starboard" means right, and dropped
> the wrong anchor.
>

Wrong.

Neither the pilot or trainee drops the anchor. That is the deck officer
that has been trained to use the equipment.

We don't know if the anchor was able to dig in and do much. The anchor
acts as a fulcrum.

Ed P wrote on 4/5/2024 1:29 PM:
> On 4/5/2024 12:46 PM, 😎 Mighty Wannabe ✅ wrote:
> ow the trainee gets the experience in operating the controls.
>>
>>  From the first paragraph: "the pilot ordered a hard left rudder,
>> dropped the port anchor...". Apparently the pilot ordered the trainee
>> to drop the "port" anchor. From the crash video, the ship jerked to
>> the right and hit the bridge. If really the "port" anchor was
>> dropped, the ship would have jerked to the left. Apparently the
>> trainee did not understand "port" means left, and "starboard" means
>> right, and dropped the wrong anchor.
>>
>
> Wrong.
>
> Neither the pilot or trainee drops the anchor.  That is the deck
> officer that has been trained to use the equipment.
>
>

What???!!! This is your knowledge of how gigantic cargo ships work from
merely owning a boat on a trailer in your driveway?

The container ship is stacked sky high with cargo containers. How do you
suppose the "deck officers" can get to the anchors? Are the "deck
officers" super humans who can manually lower the anchor? How much do
you think the anchor and the chain weigh? How many times have I proven
you wrong after spouting bullshit like that, just in this thread, Ed???

This is my reply to ED P's post. Apparently a trainee pilot from
Baltimore port authority was handling all the maneuvers on the bridge of
the container ship, right until the crash:

https://www.thebaltimorebanner.com/baltimore/key-bridge-collapse-ship-pilot-LKDWFY237JFR5NCR7KXZIWRDVA/

The following paragraphs are excerpts from your link:

#1
“The pilot ordered a hard left rudder, and dropped the port anchor to
try to keep the ship from moving right,” said Clayton L. Diamond,
executive director and general counsel for The American Pilots’
Association. “The pilot did everything he could to slow the ship.”

#2
The Maryland pilot who guided the ship received years of training to
become a pilot, has a state license which requires knowledge of the
local waters and has more than a decade of experience. An apprentice
pilot was on board observing the pilot, but Diamond said he was new to
the pilot training program, having started on Feb. 1, and was not
involved in any of the decisions during the three minutes before the crash.

From the above two paragraphs (apparently carefully crafted), I can
understand that there was a pilot and a trainee. The second paragraph
above pointed out that the trainee "was not involved in any of the
decisions during the three minutes before the crash". That implies that
the trainee was making the decisions and operating the controls on
his/her own all the time, but was following orders from the pilot during
the three minutes before the crash. Everybody should understand that
when a pilot and a trainee pilot are present on the bridge of the ship,
the trainee pilot would be operating the controls (theoretically under
the supervision of the pilot, but generally that's not the case in real
life. The pilot would be drinking coffee, walking around, and yapping
with other people on the bridge). The trainee operating the controls is
how the trainee gets the experience in operating the controls.

From the first paragraph: "the pilot ordered a hard left rudder,
dropped the port anchor...". Apparently the pilot ordered the trainee to
drop the "port" anchor. From the crash video, the ship jerked to the
right and hit the bridge. If really the "port" anchor was dropped, the
ship would have jerked to the left. Apparently the trainee did not
understand "port" means left, and "starboard" means right, and dropped
the wrong anchor.

The ship's black box should reveal what the hell the trainee had done
and what buttons were pushed. I hope they have surveillance video of the
inside of the ship's bridge to see what the hell the pilot and the
trainee were doing the whole time.

On 4/5/2024 6:04 AM, Bob F wrote:
> On 4/5/2024 4:48 AM, Bob F wrote:
>> On 4/3/2024 8:36 PM, 😎 Mighty Wannabe ✅ wrote:
>>> micky wrote on 4/3/2024 11:06 PM:
>>>> In alt.home.repair, on Wed, 3 Apr 2024 22:28:36 -0400, ? Mighty Wannabe
>>>> ? <@.> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Bob F wrote on 4/3/2024 9:58 PM:
>>>>>> On 4/3/2024 6:30 PM, ? Mighty Wannabe ? wrote:
>>>>>>> Ed P wrote on 4/3/2024 9:05 PM:
>>>>>>>> On 4/3/2024 8:31 PM, ? Mighty Wannabe ? wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Bob F wrote on 4/3/2024 7:59 PM:
>>>>>>>>>> On 4/3/2024 3:02 PM, ? Mighty Wannabe ? wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> micky wrote on 4/3/2024 9:46 AM:
>>>>>>>>>>>> Can't find the thread about the Key Bridge being knocked
>>>>>>>>>>>> down in
>>>>>>>>>>>> Baltimore, but wanted to comment on the racist pigs around the
>>>>>>>>>>>> USA who
>>>>>>>>>>>> claimed it had something to do with seeking diversity in who
>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>> shipping company hires.   What nonsense.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Did you notice that the news kept mentioning the "pilot" instead
>>>>>>>>>>> of the "captain"? The captain didn't hit the Baltimore Key
>>>>>>>>>>> Bridge. The "pilot" who was working for Baltimore was steering
>>>>>>>>>>> the ship, not the captain. The pilot was hired to do just that,
>>>>>>>>>>> because the pilot knows the water channel like the back of his
>>>>>>>>>>> hand. The pilot knows where the ship should avoid so that it
>>>>>>>>>>> won't run aground.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Baltimore authorities cannot sue the captain of the ship or
>>>>>>>>>>> owner
>>>>>>>>>>> of the ship, because the "pilot" who was steering the ship
>>>>>>>>>>> worked
>>>>>>>>>>> for Baltimore.
>>>>>>>>>> The pilot did not hit the bridge, the ship hit the bridge, after
>>>>>>>>>> it's power systems failed. You actually think that was the pilots
>>>>>>>>>> fault?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> How would you like to have been the second pilot, who was there
>>>>>>>>>> being trained?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The Baltimore's pilot was at the helm. Good luck blaming anyone
>>>>>>>>> else for the accident. The US will have to pick up the tab for
>>>>>>>>> third party liability (people hurt/killed as a result of the
>>>>>>>>> bridge
>>>>>>>>> collapse) and property damage (the bridge and the vehicles that
>>>>>>>>> fell into the water).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> How We Steer A Cargo Ship
>>>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3T-wFfPm37U
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> He was at the helm, but the helm did not work.  Can't pin that
>>>>>>>> on him.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Nice video.  Did you notice in the last minute that the engines
>>>>>>>> were
>>>>>>>> running and making power?  The ship that hit the bridge did not
>>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>> that luxury.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Baltimore's pilot was at the helm. He might have accidentally killed
>>>>>>> the power by pushing the wrong button.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Are you Rod Speed??? You certainly have his stupid know it all
>>>>>> attitude.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I merely put forward the best, unbiased analysis of what caused the
>>>>> accident.
>>>> Might be unbiased, but definitely not the best analysis.
>>>>
>>>> Other have answered pretty well but since you replied first to my post,
>>>> I will take the bait.
>>>>
>>>> If I were driving a Ford with 1000 miles on it, and the rack and pinion
>>>> locked up so that I coudlnt' steer it, do you think I would be liable
>>>> for the damages that followed or Ford would?
>>>
>>> You were driving your own car. How's that relevant to the case of the
>>> Baltimore harbour pilots at the helm of a strange (or not so
>>> familiar) ship?
>>>
>>>
>>>> It's the same here.  Assuming the engine could have been turned off,
>>>> and
>>>> that the pilot had the power to do that, and he did it, that would make
>>>> the pilot and his employer liable. But you have to prove that by a
>>>> preponderance of the evidence.
>>>
>>> I think there is a black box in ships like that. I think they got the
>>> hold of the black box.
>>>
>>> https://www.businessinsider.com/baltimore-bridge-collapse-cargo-ship-black-box-recovered-2024-3
>>>
>>>
>>>> It could also be that the owner of the ship didn't maintain the engines
>>>> properly and that caused the engines to stop.  That would make the
>>>> owner
>>>> liable.
>>>
>>> It worked fine all over the world until the Baltimore harbour pilots
>>> took over the helm. I'd blame the pilots first.
>>>
>>>
>>>> It could be, I hear, that the fuel they used was bad and that made the
>>>> engnine and the electrical generating engines stop. That could make the
>>>> vendor of the fuel liable, unless maybe he took the standard amount of
>>>> care but someone else not related to the fuel vendor intentionally
>>>> damaged the fuel.   Or it could be the fuel wholesaler or producer made
>>>> bad fuel that fouled the engines.
>>>
>>> Bad fuel won't make the power go out and come back on.
>>>
>>>
>>>> It could be that none of those parties were negligent but it turns out
>>>> the electical generating engines fail at a certain age, and it was that
>>>> old but they buyers weren't warned.   The maker of the engines might
>>>> have known they fail at that age and not warned the buyers, or maybe he
>>>> didn't know this.
>>>
>>> This does not explain why the power went out and came back on.
>>>
>>>> I'm sure there are other things that could have caused this.
>>>
>>> Fat finger pushing the wrong button?
>>
>> The pilot never touches any buttons, other than perhaps the switch on
>> a microphone.
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> It's not clear from afar, and it's not even clear to those on the
>>>> scene,
>>>> if someone was at fault and if so, who it was.
>>>
>>>
>>> You keep trying to make excuses for the Baltimore harbour pilots when
>>> their human error is the most likely culprit of this disaster.
>>
>> You keep blaming the pilot, without an ounce of evidence or any
>> reasonable way a pilot could have caused the power failure(s).
>>
>> When the reports are made, equipment failure will most likely be the
>> cause, and the pilot is highly unlikely to be held responsible, since
>> there is nothing a pilot could do to cause equipment failures. Some
>> form of poor maintenance will likely be cited as the cause, with crew
>> operational mistakes being the most likely alternative.
>>
>
> "There were two ship pilots aboard the ship as it left its berth in the
> Port of Baltimore. Can you tell us what ship pilots do?
>
> Post: Ship pilots are brought on board in what are considered restricted
> maneuverability or navigation areas. They are local experts who are
> usually certified by the state or federal government to provide advice
> to the master of the vessel as to how to control the vessel, safely and
> adequately, through the pilotage waters, which in this case would be
> down the river from the Port of Baltimore.
>
> Pilots are well practiced in close-quarters maneuvering, especially with
> tugboats and docking the vessel alongside the assigned berth.
>
> But a pilot doesn’t come aboard the ship and take control of it, do they?
>
> Post: They are just advisers to the captain, who is known as the
> “master.” The master still has full responsibility for the safe
> navigation of the vessel. So the pilot will meet the ship out at sea or
> at the dock if it’s in port and leaving to go to sea. They proceed up to
> the bridge. Usually they exchange greetings, and usually a little bit of
> ship’s swag is given, either a hat or something else, or at least a cup
> of coffee.
>
> They then set up their gear. With the electronics that we now have, they
> plug into the ship’s electronic chart data information system. And then
> they conduct the pilot exchange with the master of the vessel, where the
> master of the vessel describes where they are going, what the
> characteristics of the ship are, who’s on the bridge, what their first
> language is and the air draft of the vessel, which refers to how high
> out of the water the vessel is, so that you know whether you can take
> the ship under a bridge safely.
>
> Once that’s completed, the pilot then starts instructing the officer of
> the watch or the captain – those are usually the same person – in how to
> get to where they need to be to dock the ship, or undock the ship and
> bring it to sea. This instructing is done during complex maneuvers, not
> all the time. The pilot can also say he’s not going to do it, and can
> shut down their operations if conditions are unsafe or if they feel that
> the vessel is not in condition to be able to transit safely. That
> happens a lot, especially in fog.
>
> The ship pilot also interacts with the Coast Guard Vessel Traffic
> Service and other ships in the area, and coordinates with the tugboats
> and line handlers to be able to safely maneuver the vessel close to the
> pier or when a ship is leaving the berth."
>
> https://today.tamu.edu/2024/03/26/how-captains-and-harbor-pilots-safely-guide-ships-into-port/
>

bud-- wrote on 4/5/2024 3:38 PM:
> On 4/5/2024 6:04 AM, Bob F wrote:
>> On 4/5/2024 4:48 AM, Bob F wrote:
>>> On 4/3/2024 8:36 PM, 😎 Mighty Wannabe ✅ wrote:
>>>> micky wrote on 4/3/2024 11:06 PM:
>>>>> In alt.home.repair, on Wed, 3 Apr 2024 22:28:36 -0400, ? Mighty
>>>>> Wannabe
>>>>> ? <@.> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Bob F wrote on 4/3/2024 9:58 PM:
>>>>>>> On 4/3/2024 6:30 PM, ? Mighty Wannabe ? wrote:
>>>>>>>> Ed P wrote on 4/3/2024 9:05 PM:
>>>>>>>>> On 4/3/2024 8:31 PM, ? Mighty Wannabe ? wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Bob F wrote on 4/3/2024 7:59 PM:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/3/2024 3:02 PM, ? Mighty Wannabe ? wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> micky wrote on 4/3/2024 9:46 AM:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Can't find the thread about the Key Bridge being knocked
>>>>>>>>>>>>> down in
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Baltimore, but wanted to comment on the racist pigs around
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> USA who
>>>>>>>>>>>>> claimed it had something to do with seeking diversity in
>>>>>>>>>>>>> who the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> shipping company hires.   What nonsense.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Did you notice that the news kept mentioning the "pilot"
>>>>>>>>>>>> instead
>>>>>>>>>>>> of the "captain"? The captain didn't hit the Baltimore Key
>>>>>>>>>>>> Bridge. The "pilot" who was working for Baltimore was steering
>>>>>>>>>>>> the ship, not the captain. The pilot was hired to do just
>>>>>>>>>>>> that,
>>>>>>>>>>>> because the pilot knows the water channel like the back of his
>>>>>>>>>>>> hand. The pilot knows where the ship should avoid so that it
>>>>>>>>>>>> won't run aground.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Baltimore authorities cannot sue the captain of the ship or
>>>>>>>>>>>> owner
>>>>>>>>>>>> of the ship, because the "pilot" who was steering the ship
>>>>>>>>>>>> worked
>>>>>>>>>>>> for Baltimore.
>>>>>>>>>>> The pilot did not hit the bridge, the ship hit the bridge,
>>>>>>>>>>> after
>>>>>>>>>>> it's power systems failed. You actually think that was the
>>>>>>>>>>> pilots
>>>>>>>>>>> fault?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> How would you like to have been the second pilot, who was there
>>>>>>>>>>> being trained?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The Baltimore's pilot was at the helm. Good luck blaming anyone
>>>>>>>>>> else for the accident. The US will have to pick up the tab for
>>>>>>>>>> third party liability (people hurt/killed as a result of the
>>>>>>>>>> bridge
>>>>>>>>>> collapse) and property damage (the bridge and the vehicles that
>>>>>>>>>> fell into the water).
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> How We Steer A Cargo Ship
>>>>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3T-wFfPm37U
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> He was at the helm, but the helm did not work. Can't pin that
>>>>>>>>> on him.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Nice video.  Did you notice in the last minute that the
>>>>>>>>> engines were
>>>>>>>>> running and making power?  The ship that hit the bridge did
>>>>>>>>> not have
>>>>>>>>> that luxury.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Baltimore's pilot was at the helm. He might have accidentally
>>>>>>>> killed
>>>>>>>> the power by pushing the wrong button.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Are you Rod Speed??? You certainly have his stupid know it all
>>>>>>> attitude.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I merely put forward the best, unbiased analysis of what caused the
>>>>>> accident.
>>>>> Might be unbiased, but definitely not the best analysis.
>>>>>
>>>>> Other have answered pretty well but since you replied first to my
>>>>> post,
>>>>> I will take the bait.
>>>>>
>>>>> If I were driving a Ford with 1000 miles on it, and the rack and
>>>>> pinion
>>>>> locked up so that I coudlnt' steer it, do you think I would be liable
>>>>> for the damages that followed or Ford would?
>>>>
>>>> You were driving your own car. How's that relevant to the case of
>>>> the Baltimore harbour pilots at the helm of a strange (or not so
>>>> familiar) ship?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> It's the same here.  Assuming the engine could have been turned
>>>>> off, and
>>>>> that the pilot had the power to do that, and he did it, that would
>>>>> make
>>>>> the pilot and his employer liable. But you have to prove that by a
>>>>> preponderance of the evidence.
>>>>
>>>> I think there is a black box in ships like that. I think they got
>>>> the hold of the black box.
>>>>
>>>> https://www.businessinsider.com/baltimore-bridge-collapse-cargo-ship-black-box-recovered-2024-3
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> It could also be that the owner of the ship didn't maintain the
>>>>> engines
>>>>> properly and that caused the engines to stop.  That would make the
>>>>> owner
>>>>> liable.
>>>>
>>>> It worked fine all over the world until the Baltimore harbour
>>>> pilots took over the helm. I'd blame the pilots first.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> It could be, I hear, that the fuel they used was bad and that made
>>>>> the
>>>>> engnine and the electrical generating engines stop. That could
>>>>> make the
>>>>> vendor of the fuel liable, unless maybe he took the standard
>>>>> amount of
>>>>> care but someone else not related to the fuel vendor intentionally
>>>>> damaged the fuel.   Or it could be the fuel wholesaler or producer
>>>>> made
>>>>> bad fuel that fouled the engines.
>>>>
>>>> Bad fuel won't make the power go out and come back on.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> It could be that none of those parties were negligent but it turns
>>>>> out
>>>>> the electical generating engines fail at a certain age, and it was
>>>>> that
>>>>> old but they buyers weren't warned.   The maker of the engines might
>>>>> have known they fail at that age and not warned the buyers, or
>>>>> maybe he
>>>>> didn't know this.
>>>>
>>>> This does not explain why the power went out and came back on.
>>>>
>>>>> I'm sure there are other things that could have caused this.
>>>>
>>>> Fat finger pushing the wrong button?
>>>
>>> The pilot never touches any buttons, other than perhaps the switch
>>> on a microphone.
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> It's not clear from afar, and it's not even clear to those on the
>>>>> scene,
>>>>> if someone was at fault and if so, who it was.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> You keep trying to make excuses for the Baltimore harbour pilots
>>>> when their human error is the most likely culprit of this disaster.
>>>
>>> You keep blaming the pilot, without an ounce of evidence or any
>>> reasonable way a pilot could have caused the power failure(s).
>>>
>>> When the reports are made, equipment failure will most likely be the
>>> cause, and the pilot is highly unlikely to be held responsible,
>>> since there is nothing a pilot could do to cause equipment failures.
>>> Some form of poor maintenance will likely be cited as the cause,
>>> with crew operational mistakes being the most likely alternative.
>>>
>>
>> "There were two ship pilots aboard the ship as it left its berth in
>> the Port of Baltimore. Can you tell us what ship pilots do?
>>
>> Post: Ship pilots are brought on board in what are considered
>> restricted maneuverability or navigation areas. They are local
>> experts who are usually certified by the state or federal government
>> to provide advice to the master of the vessel as to how to control
>> the vessel, safely and adequately, through the pilotage waters, which
>> in this case would be down the river from the Port of Baltimore.
>>
>> Pilots are well practiced in close-quarters maneuvering, especially
>> with tugboats and docking the vessel alongside the assigned berth.
>>
>> But a pilot doesn’t come aboard the ship and take control of it, do
>> they?
>>
>> Post: They are just advisers to the captain, who is known as the
>> “master.” The master still has full responsibility for the safe
>> navigation of the vessel. So the pilot will meet the ship out at sea
>> or at the dock if it’s in port and leaving to go to sea. They proceed
>> up to the bridge. Usually they exchange greetings, and usually a
>> little bit of ship’s swag is given, either a hat or something else,
>> or at least a cup of coffee.
>>
>> They then set up their gear. With the electronics that we now have,
>> they plug into the ship’s electronic chart data information system.
>> And then they conduct the pilot exchange with the master of the
>> vessel, where the master of the vessel describes where they are
>> going, what the characteristics of the ship are, who’s on the bridge,
>> what their first language is and the air draft of the vessel, which
>> refers to how high out of the water the vessel is, so that you know
>> whether you can take the ship under a bridge safely.
>>
>> Once that’s completed, the pilot then starts instructing the officer
>> of the watch or the captain – those are usually the same person – in
>> how to get to where they need to be to dock the ship, or undock the
>> ship and bring it to sea. This instructing is done during complex
>> maneuvers, not all the time. The pilot can also say he’s not going to
>> do it, and can shut down their operations if conditions are unsafe or
>> if they feel that the vessel is not in condition to be able to
>> transit safely. That happens a lot, especially in fog.
>>
>> The ship pilot also interacts with the Coast Guard Vessel Traffic
>> Service and other ships in the area, and coordinates with the
>> tugboats and line handlers to be able to safely maneuver the vessel
>> close to the pier or when a ship is leaving the berth."
>>
>> https://today.tamu.edu/2024/03/26/how-captains-and-harbor-pilots-safely-guide-ships-into-port/
>>
>
> Interesting description.
>
> -----
> Stupid idea - that a pilot directly operates the controls of a ship he
> has no experience operating. (If that is not completely obvious read
> above.)
>

On 4/5/2024 1:01 PM, 😎 Mighty Wannabe ✅ wrote:
> bud-- wrote on 4/5/2024 3:38 PM:
>> On 4/5/2024 6:04 AM, Bob F wrote:
>>> On 4/5/2024 4:48 AM, Bob F wrote:
>>>> On 4/3/2024 8:36 PM, 😎 Mighty Wannabe ✅ wrote:
>>>>> micky wrote on 4/3/2024 11:06 PM:
>>>>>> In alt.home.repair, on Wed, 3 Apr 2024 22:28:36 -0400, ? Mighty
>>>>>> Wannabe
>>>>>> ? <@.> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Bob F wrote on 4/3/2024 9:58 PM:
>>>>>>>> On 4/3/2024 6:30 PM, ? Mighty Wannabe ? wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Ed P wrote on 4/3/2024 9:05 PM:
>>>>>>>>>> On 4/3/2024 8:31 PM, ? Mighty Wannabe ? wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Bob F wrote on 4/3/2024 7:59 PM:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/3/2024 3:02 PM, ? Mighty Wannabe ? wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> micky wrote on 4/3/2024 9:46 AM:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Can't find the thread about the Key Bridge being knocked
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> down in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Baltimore, but wanted to comment on the racist pigs around
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> USA who
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> claimed it had something to do with seeking diversity in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> who the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> shipping company hires.   What nonsense.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Did you notice that the news kept mentioning the "pilot"
>>>>>>>>>>>>> instead
>>>>>>>>>>>>> of the "captain"? The captain didn't hit the Baltimore Key
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bridge. The "pilot" who was working for Baltimore was steering
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the ship, not the captain. The pilot was hired to do just
>>>>>>>>>>>>> that,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> because the pilot knows the water channel like the back of his
>>>>>>>>>>>>> hand. The pilot knows where the ship should avoid so that it
>>>>>>>>>>>>> won't run aground.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Baltimore authorities cannot sue the captain of the ship or
>>>>>>>>>>>>> owner
>>>>>>>>>>>>> of the ship, because the "pilot" who was steering the ship
>>>>>>>>>>>>> worked
>>>>>>>>>>>>> for Baltimore.
>>>>>>>>>>>> The pilot did not hit the bridge, the ship hit the bridge,
>>>>>>>>>>>> after
>>>>>>>>>>>> it's power systems failed. You actually think that was the
>>>>>>>>>>>> pilots
>>>>>>>>>>>> fault?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> How would you like to have been the second pilot, who was there
>>>>>>>>>>>> being trained?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The Baltimore's pilot was at the helm. Good luck blaming anyone
>>>>>>>>>>> else for the accident. The US will have to pick up the tab for
>>>>>>>>>>> third party liability (people hurt/killed as a result of the
>>>>>>>>>>> bridge
>>>>>>>>>>> collapse) and property damage (the bridge and the vehicles that
>>>>>>>>>>> fell into the water).
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> How We Steer A Cargo Ship
>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3T-wFfPm37U
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> He was at the helm, but the helm did not work. Can't pin that
>>>>>>>>>> on him.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Nice video.  Did you notice in the last minute that the
>>>>>>>>>> engines were
>>>>>>>>>> running and making power?  The ship that hit the bridge did
>>>>>>>>>> not have
>>>>>>>>>> that luxury.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Baltimore's pilot was at the helm. He might have accidentally
>>>>>>>>> killed
>>>>>>>>> the power by pushing the wrong button.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Are you Rod Speed??? You certainly have his stupid know it all
>>>>>>>> attitude.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I merely put forward the best, unbiased analysis of what caused the
>>>>>>> accident.
>>>>>> Might be unbiased, but definitely not the best analysis.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Other have answered pretty well but since you replied first to my
>>>>>> post,
>>>>>> I will take the bait.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If I were driving a Ford with 1000 miles on it, and the rack and
>>>>>> pinion
>>>>>> locked up so that I coudlnt' steer it, do you think I would be liable
>>>>>> for the damages that followed or Ford would?
>>>>>
>>>>> You were driving your own car. How's that relevant to the case of
>>>>> the Baltimore harbour pilots at the helm of a strange (or not so
>>>>> familiar) ship?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> It's the same here.  Assuming the engine could have been turned
>>>>>> off, and
>>>>>> that the pilot had the power to do that, and he did it, that would
>>>>>> make
>>>>>> the pilot and his employer liable. But you have to prove that by a
>>>>>> preponderance of the evidence.
>>>>>
>>>>> I think there is a black box in ships like that. I think they got
>>>>> the hold of the black box.
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.businessinsider.com/baltimore-bridge-collapse-cargo-ship-black-box-recovered-2024-3
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> It could also be that the owner of the ship didn't maintain the
>>>>>> engines
>>>>>> properly and that caused the engines to stop.  That would make the
>>>>>> owner
>>>>>> liable.
>>>>>
>>>>> It worked fine all over the world until the Baltimore harbour
>>>>> pilots took over the helm. I'd blame the pilots first.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> It could be, I hear, that the fuel they used was bad and that made
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> engnine and the electrical generating engines stop. That could
>>>>>> make the
>>>>>> vendor of the fuel liable, unless maybe he took the standard
>>>>>> amount of
>>>>>> care but someone else not related to the fuel vendor intentionally
>>>>>> damaged the fuel.   Or it could be the fuel wholesaler or producer
>>>>>> made
>>>>>> bad fuel that fouled the engines.
>>>>>
>>>>> Bad fuel won't make the power go out and come back on.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> It could be that none of those parties were negligent but it turns
>>>>>> out
>>>>>> the electical generating engines fail at a certain age, and it was
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> old but they buyers weren't warned.   The maker of the engines might
>>>>>> have known they fail at that age and not warned the buyers, or
>>>>>> maybe he
>>>>>> didn't know this.
>>>>>
>>>>> This does not explain why the power went out and came back on.
>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm sure there are other things that could have caused this.
>>>>>
>>>>> Fat finger pushing the wrong button?
>>>>
>>>> The pilot never touches any buttons, other than perhaps the switch
>>>> on a microphone.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It's not clear from afar, and it's not even clear to those on the
>>>>>> scene,
>>>>>> if someone was at fault and if so, who it was.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> You keep trying to make excuses for the Baltimore harbour pilots
>>>>> when their human error is the most likely culprit of this disaster.
>>>>
>>>> You keep blaming the pilot, without an ounce of evidence or any
>>>> reasonable way a pilot could have caused the power failure(s).
>>>>
>>>> When the reports are made, equipment failure will most likely be the
>>>> cause, and the pilot is highly unlikely to be held responsible,
>>>> since there is nothing a pilot could do to cause equipment failures.
>>>> Some form of poor maintenance will likely be cited as the cause,
>>>> with crew operational mistakes being the most likely alternative.
>>>>
>>>
>>> "There were two ship pilots aboard the ship as it left its berth in
>>> the Port of Baltimore. Can you tell us what ship pilots do?
>>>
>>> Post: Ship pilots are brought on board in what are considered
>>> restricted maneuverability or navigation areas. They are local
>>> experts who are usually certified by the state or federal government
>>> to provide advice to the master of the vessel as to how to control
>>> the vessel, safely and adequately, through the pilotage waters, which
>>> in this case would be down the river from the Port of Baltimore.
>>>
>>> Pilots are well practiced in close-quarters maneuvering, especially
>>> with tugboats and docking the vessel alongside the assigned berth.
>>>
>>> But a pilot doesn’t come aboard the ship and take control of it, do
>>> they?
>>>
>>> Post: They are just advisers to the captain, who is known as the
>>> “master.” The master still has full responsibility for the safe
>>> navigation of the vessel. So the pilot will meet the ship out at sea
>>> or at the dock if it’s in port and leaving to go to sea. They proceed
>>> up to the bridge. Usually they exchange greetings, and usually a
>>> little bit of ship’s swag is given, either a hat or something else,
>>> or at least a cup of coffee.
>>>
>>> They then set up their gear. With the electronics that we now have,
>>> they plug into the ship’s electronic chart data information system.
>>> And then they conduct the pilot exchange with the master of the
>>> vessel, where the master of the vessel describes where they are
>>> going, what the characteristics of the ship are, who’s on the bridge,
>>> what their first language is and the air draft of the vessel, which
>>> refers to how high out of the water the vessel is, so that you know
>>> whether you can take the ship under a bridge safely.
>>>
>>> Once that’s completed, the pilot then starts instructing the officer
>>> of the watch or the captain – those are usually the same person – in
>>> how to get to where they need to be to dock the ship, or undock the
>>> ship and bring it to sea. This instructing is done during complex
>>> maneuvers, not all the time. The pilot can also say he’s not going to
>>> do it, and can shut down their operations if conditions are unsafe or
>>> if they feel that the vessel is not in condition to be able to
>>> transit safely. That happens a lot, especially in fog.
>>>
>>> The ship pilot also interacts with the Coast Guard Vessel Traffic
>>> Service and other ships in the area, and coordinates with the
>>> tugboats and line handlers to be able to safely maneuver the vessel
>>> close to the pier or when a ship is leaving the berth."
>>>
>>> https://today.tamu.edu/2024/03/26/how-captains-and-harbor-pilots-safely-guide-ships-into-port/
>>>
>>
>> Interesting description.
>>
>> -----
>> Stupid idea - that a pilot directly operates the controls of a ship he
>> has no experience operating. (If that is not completely obvious read
>> above.)
>>
>
> There are only a limited variety of control rooms built by a limit
> number of control rooms builders.

On 4/5/2024 12:38 PM, bud-- wrote:
> On 4/5/2024 6:04 AM, Bob F wrote:
>> On 4/5/2024 4:48 AM, Bob F wrote:
>>> On 4/3/2024 8:36 PM, 😎 Mighty Wannabe ✅ wrote:
>>>> micky wrote on 4/3/2024 11:06 PM:
>>>>> In alt.home.repair, on Wed, 3 Apr 2024 22:28:36 -0400, ? Mighty
>>>>> Wannabe
>>>>> ? <@.> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Bob F wrote on 4/3/2024 9:58 PM:
>>>>>>> On 4/3/2024 6:30 PM, ? Mighty Wannabe ? wrote:
>>>>>>>> Ed P wrote on 4/3/2024 9:05 PM:
>>>>>>>>> On 4/3/2024 8:31 PM, ? Mighty Wannabe ? wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Bob F wrote on 4/3/2024 7:59 PM:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/3/2024 3:02 PM, ? Mighty Wannabe ? wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> micky wrote on 4/3/2024 9:46 AM:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Can't find the thread about the Key Bridge being knocked
>>>>>>>>>>>>> down in
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Baltimore, but wanted to comment on the racist pigs around the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> USA who
>>>>>>>>>>>>> claimed it had something to do with seeking diversity in
>>>>>>>>>>>>> who the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> shipping company hires.   What nonsense.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Did you notice that the news kept mentioning the "pilot"
>>>>>>>>>>>> instead
>>>>>>>>>>>> of the "captain"? The captain didn't hit the Baltimore Key
>>>>>>>>>>>> Bridge. The "pilot" who was working for Baltimore was steering
>>>>>>>>>>>> the ship, not the captain. The pilot was hired to do just that,
>>>>>>>>>>>> because the pilot knows the water channel like the back of his
>>>>>>>>>>>> hand. The pilot knows where the ship should avoid so that it
>>>>>>>>>>>> won't run aground.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Baltimore authorities cannot sue the captain of the ship or
>>>>>>>>>>>> owner
>>>>>>>>>>>> of the ship, because the "pilot" who was steering the ship
>>>>>>>>>>>> worked
>>>>>>>>>>>> for Baltimore.
>>>>>>>>>>> The pilot did not hit the bridge, the ship hit the bridge, after
>>>>>>>>>>> it's power systems failed. You actually think that was the
>>>>>>>>>>> pilots
>>>>>>>>>>> fault?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> How would you like to have been the second pilot, who was there
>>>>>>>>>>> being trained?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The Baltimore's pilot was at the helm. Good luck blaming anyone
>>>>>>>>>> else for the accident. The US will have to pick up the tab for
>>>>>>>>>> third party liability (people hurt/killed as a result of the
>>>>>>>>>> bridge
>>>>>>>>>> collapse) and property damage (the bridge and the vehicles that
>>>>>>>>>> fell into the water).
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> How We Steer A Cargo Ship
>>>>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3T-wFfPm37U
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> He was at the helm, but the helm did not work.  Can't pin that
>>>>>>>>> on him.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Nice video.  Did you notice in the last minute that the engines
>>>>>>>>> were
>>>>>>>>> running and making power?  The ship that hit the bridge did not
>>>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>>> that luxury.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Baltimore's pilot was at the helm. He might have accidentally
>>>>>>>> killed
>>>>>>>> the power by pushing the wrong button.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Are you Rod Speed??? You certainly have his stupid know it all
>>>>>>> attitude.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I merely put forward the best, unbiased analysis of what caused the
>>>>>> accident.
>>>>> Might be unbiased, but definitely not the best analysis.
>>>>>
>>>>> Other have answered pretty well but since you replied first to my
>>>>> post,
>>>>> I will take the bait.
>>>>>
>>>>> If I were driving a Ford with 1000 miles on it, and the rack and
>>>>> pinion
>>>>> locked up so that I coudlnt' steer it, do you think I would be liable
>>>>> for the damages that followed or Ford would?
>>>>
>>>> You were driving your own car. How's that relevant to the case of
>>>> the Baltimore harbour pilots at the helm of a strange (or not so
>>>> familiar) ship?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> It's the same here.  Assuming the engine could have been turned
>>>>> off, and
>>>>> that the pilot had the power to do that, and he did it, that would
>>>>> make
>>>>> the pilot and his employer liable. But you have to prove that by a
>>>>> preponderance of the evidence.
>>>>
>>>> I think there is a black box in ships like that. I think they got
>>>> the hold of the black box.
>>>>
>>>> https://www.businessinsider.com/baltimore-bridge-collapse-cargo-ship-black-box-recovered-2024-3
>>>>
>>>>> It could also be that the owner of the ship didn't maintain the
>>>>> engines
>>>>> properly and that caused the engines to stop.  That would make the
>>>>> owner
>>>>> liable.
>>>>
>>>> It worked fine all over the world until the Baltimore harbour pilots
>>>> took over the helm. I'd blame the pilots first.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> It could be, I hear, that the fuel they used was bad and that made the
>>>>> engnine and the electrical generating engines stop. That could make
>>>>> the
>>>>> vendor of the fuel liable, unless maybe he took the standard amount of
>>>>> care but someone else not related to the fuel vendor intentionally
>>>>> damaged the fuel.   Or it could be the fuel wholesaler or producer
>>>>> made
>>>>> bad fuel that fouled the engines.
>>>>
>>>> Bad fuel won't make the power go out and come back on.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> It could be that none of those parties were negligent but it turns out
>>>>> the electical generating engines fail at a certain age, and it was
>>>>> that
>>>>> old but they buyers weren't warned.   The maker of the engines might
>>>>> have known they fail at that age and not warned the buyers, or
>>>>> maybe he
>>>>> didn't know this.
>>>>
>>>> This does not explain why the power went out and came back on.
>>>>
>>>>> I'm sure there are other things that could have caused this.
>>>>
>>>> Fat finger pushing the wrong button?
>>>
>>> The pilot never touches any buttons, other than perhaps the switch on
>>> a microphone.
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> It's not clear from afar, and it's not even clear to those on the
>>>>> scene,
>>>>> if someone was at fault and if so, who it was.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> You keep trying to make excuses for the Baltimore harbour pilots
>>>> when their human error is the most likely culprit of this disaster.
>>>
>>> You keep blaming the pilot, without an ounce of evidence or any
>>> reasonable way a pilot could have caused the power failure(s).
>>>
>>> When the reports are made, equipment failure will most likely be the
>>> cause, and the pilot is highly unlikely to be held responsible, since
>>> there is nothing a pilot could do to cause equipment failures. Some
>>> form of poor maintenance will likely be cited as the cause, with crew
>>> operational mistakes being the most likely alternative.
>>>
>>
>> "There were two ship pilots aboard the ship as it left its berth in
>> the Port of Baltimore. Can you tell us what ship pilots do?
>>
>> Post: Ship pilots are brought on board in what are considered
>> restricted maneuverability or navigation areas. They are local experts
>> who are usually certified by the state or federal government to
>> provide advice to the master of the vessel as to how to control the
>> vessel, safely and adequately, through the pilotage waters, which in
>> this case would be down the river from the Port of Baltimore.
>>
>> Pilots are well practiced in close-quarters maneuvering, especially
>> with tugboats and docking the vessel alongside the assigned berth.
>>
>> But a pilot doesn’t come aboard the ship and take control of it, do they?
>>
>> Post: They are just advisers to the captain, who is known as the
>> “master.” The master still has full responsibility for the safe
>> navigation of the vessel. So the pilot will meet the ship out at sea
>> or at the dock if it’s in port and leaving to go to sea. They proceed
>> up to the bridge. Usually they exchange greetings, and usually a
>> little bit of ship’s swag is given, either a hat or something else, or
>> at least a cup of coffee.
>>
>> They then set up their gear. With the electronics that we now have,
>> they plug into the ship’s electronic chart data information system.
>> And then they conduct the pilot exchange with the master of the
>> vessel, where the master of the vessel describes where they are going,
>> what the characteristics of the ship are, who’s on the bridge, what
>> their first language is and the air draft of the vessel, which refers
>> to how high out of the water the vessel is, so that you know whether
>> you can take the ship under a bridge safely.
>>
>> Once that’s completed, the pilot then starts instructing the officer
>> of the watch or the captain – those are usually the same person – in
>> how to get to where they need to be to dock the ship, or undock the
>> ship and bring it to sea. This instructing is done during complex
>> maneuvers, not all the time. The pilot can also say he’s not going to
>> do it, and can shut down their operations if conditions are unsafe or
>> if they feel that the vessel is not in condition to be able to transit
>> safely. That happens a lot, especially in fog.
>>
>> The ship pilot also interacts with the Coast Guard Vessel Traffic
>> Service and other ships in the area, and coordinates with the tugboats
>> and line handlers to be able to safely maneuver the vessel close to
>> the pier or when a ship is leaving the berth."
>>
>> https://today.tamu.edu/2024/03/26/how-captains-and-harbor-pilots-safely-guide-ships-into-port/
>
> Interesting description.
>
> -----
> Stupid idea - that a pilot directly operates the controls of a ship he
> has no experience operating. (If that is not completely obvious read
> above.)
>
> Stupid idea - that there is a readily accessible easily operated button
> on the bridge that will shut down the engines. (If I am driving and push
> the car Run/Off button nothing happens.)
>
> Someone is competing for Ed's coveted Worst Post Ever award. With stiff
> competition I don't think he has quite made it yet.

On 4/5/2024 9:55 AM, 😎 Mighty Wannabe ✅ wrote:
> micky wrote on 4/5/2024 12:35 PM:
>> In alt.home.repair, on Wed, 3 Apr 2024 23:53:24 -0400, Ed P
>> <esp@snet.xxx> wrote:
>>
>>> On 4/3/2024 11:47 PM, 😎 Mighty Wannabe ✅ wrote:
>>>> Ed P wrote on 4/3/2024 11:07 PM:
>>>>> On 4/3/2024 10:26 PM, 😎 Mighty Wannabe ✅ wrote:
>>>>>> Ed P wrote on 4/3/2024 9:51 PM:
>>>>>>> On 4/3/2024 9:30 PM, 😎 Mighty Wannabe ✅ wrote:
>>>>>>>> Ed P wrote on 4/3/2024 9:05 PM:
>>>>>>>>> On 4/3/2024 8:31 PM, 😎 Mighty Wannabe ✅ wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Bob F wrote on 4/3/2024 7:59 PM:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/3/2024 3:02 PM, 😎 Mighty Wannabe ✅ wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> micky wrote on 4/3/2024 9:46 AM:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Can't find the thread about the Key Bridge being knocked
>>>>>>>>>>>>> down in
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Baltimore, but wanted to comment on the racist pigs around the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> USA who
>>>>>>>>>>>>> claimed it had something to do with seeking diversity in
>>>>>>>>>>>>> who the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> shipping company hires.   What nonsense.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Did you notice that the news kept mentioning the "pilot"
>>>>>>>>>>>> instead of the "captain"? The captain didn't hit the Baltimore
>>>>>>>>>>>> Key Bridge. The "pilot" who was working for Baltimore was
>>>>>>>>>>>> steering the ship, not the captain. The pilot was hired to do
>>>>>>>>>>>> just that, because the pilot knows the water channel like the
>>>>>>>>>>>> back of his hand. The pilot knows where the ship should avoid
>>>>>>>>>>>> so that it won't run aground.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Baltimore authorities cannot sue the captain of the ship or
>>>>>>>>>>>> owner of the ship, because the "pilot" who was steering the
>>>>>>>>>>>> ship worked for Baltimore.
>>>>>>>>>>> The pilot did not hit the bridge, the ship hit the bridge, after
>>>>>>>>>>> it's power systems failed. You actually think that was the
>>>>>>>>>>> pilots fault?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> How would you like to have been the second pilot, who was there
>>>>>>>>>>> being trained?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The Baltimore's pilot was at the helm. Good luck blaming anyone
>>>>>>>>>> else for the accident. The US will have to pick up the tab for
>>>>>>>>>> third party liability (people hurt/killed as a result of the
>>>>>>>>>> bridge collapse) and property damage (the bridge and the vehicles
>>>>>>>>>> that fell into the water).
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> How We Steer A Cargo Ship
>>>>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3T-wFfPm37U
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> He was at the helm, but the helm did not work.  Can't pin that on
>>>>>>>>> him.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Nice video.  Did you notice in the last minute that the engines
>>>>>>>>> were running and making power?  The ship that hit the bridge did
>>>>>>>>> not have that luxury.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Baltimore's pilot was at the helm. He might have accidentally
>>>>>>>> killed the power by pushing the wrong button.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> No, does not work like that.  Not the same as turning off the
>>>>>>> key in
>>>>>>> your car ignition.
>>>>>> The ship's power went out and came back on. Someone realized the
>>>>>> mistake and corrected it. That's the logical explanation.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Homer Simpson was at the helm.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> Have you ever been on a ship?  Ever see the power plant?
>>>>>
>>>>> The pilot did not hit the off button.
>>>> Your psychic power determined that?
>>> No, my knowledge of ships did.
>> But it was Wannabe's psychic power that told him and us that he did hit
>> the button.
>>
>> I wonder if Wannabe can bend spoons with his psychic power.
>
> I know you try to be funny. Feel free to help yourself.
>
> You can plug your ears and close your eyes all you want. Of course you
> want to bail out, because I am right, as usually.
>
> This is my reply to ED P's post. Apparently a trainee pilot from
> Baltimore port authority was handling all the maneuvers on the bridge of
> the container ship, right until the crash:
>
>
> https://www.thebaltimorebanner.com/baltimore/key-bridge-collapse-ship-pilot-LKDWFY237JFR5NCR7KXZIWRDVA/
>
> The following paragraphs are excerpts from your link:
>
> #1
> “The pilot ordered a hard left rudder, and dropped the port anchor to
> try to keep the ship from moving right,” said Clayton L. Diamond,
> executive director and general counsel for The American Pilots’
> Association. “The pilot did everything he could to slow the ship.”
>
> #2
> The Maryland pilot who guided the ship received years of training to
> become a pilot, has a state license which requires knowledge of the
> local waters and has more than a decade of experience. An apprentice
> pilot was on board observing the pilot, but Diamond said he was new to
> the pilot training program, having started on Feb. 1, and was not
> involved in any of the decisions during the three minutes before the crash.
>
> From the above two paragraphs (apparently carefully crafted), I can
> understand that there was a pilot and a trainee. The second paragraph
> above pointed out that the trainee "was not involved in any of the
> decisions during the three minutes before the crash". That implies that
> the trainee was making the decisions and operating the controls on
> his/her own all the time, but was following orders from the pilot during
> the three minutes before the crash. Everybody should understand that
> when a pilot and a trainee pilot are present on the bridge of the ship,
> the trainee pilot would be operating the controls (theoretically under
> the supervision of the pilot, but generally that's not the case in real
> life. The pilot would be drinking coffee, walking around, and yapping
> with other people on the bridge). The trainee operating the controls is
> how the trainee gets the experience in operating the controls.
>
> From the first paragraph: "the pilot ordered a hard left rudder,
> dropped the port anchor...". Apparently the pilot ordered the trainee to
> drop the "port" anchor. From the crash video, the ship jerked to the
> right and hit the bridge. If really the "port" anchor was dropped, the
> ship would have jerked to the left. Apparently the trainee did not
> understand "port" means left, and "starboard" means right, and dropped
> the wrong anchor.
>
> The ship's black box should reveal what the hell the trainee had done
> and what buttons were pushed. I hope they have surveillance video of the
> inside of the ship's bridge to see what the hell the pilot and the
> trainee were doing the whole time.

You truly are an absolute idiot.

The pilot NEVER operates the controls. He directs the captain to make
the necessary changes, and the trained ships crew respond to their
captains orders. "Big thumb" indeed.

On 4/5/2024 9:46 AM, 😎 Mighty Wannabe ✅ wrote:
> micky wrote on 4/5/2024 12:27 PM:
>> In alt.home.repair, on Fri, 5 Apr 2024 10:06:48 -0400, ? Mighty Wannabe
>> ? <@.> wrote:
>>
>>> micky wrote on 4/5/2024 9:45 AM:
>>>> In alt.home.repair, on Fri, 5 Apr 2024 08:56:01 -0400, ? Mighty Wannabe
>>>> ? <@.> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> micky wrote on 4/5/2024 7:50 AM:
>>>>>> In alt.home.repair, on Fri, 5 Apr 2024 00:57:57 -0400, ? Mighty
>>>>>> Wannabe
>>>>>> ? <@.> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> micky wrote on 4/4/2024 8:11 PM:
>>>>>>>> In alt.home.repair, on Wed, 3 Apr 2024 23:36:44 -0400, ? Mighty
>>>>>>>> Wannabe
>>>>>>>> ? <@.> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> It's not clear from afar, and it's not even clear to those on
>>>>>>>>>> the scene,
>>>>>>>>>> if someone was at fault and if so, who it was.
>>>>>>>>> You keep trying to make excuses for the Baltimore harbour
>>>>>>>>> pilots when
>>>>>>>>> their human error is the most likely culprit of this disaster.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I'm not making excuses for Baltiomre pilots.  I'm saying you
>>>>>>>> don't know
>>>>>>>> a darn thing about how the law works.   You show that over and over
>>>>>>>> again.
>>>>>>> You are definitely making excuses for Baltimore pilots. You have the
>>>>>>> attitude of "my boys can do no wrong" and try to blame everything
>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>> the Baltimore pilots running the ship into the bridge.
>>>>>> You're funny.  And you also forgot that the power failed on the boat.
>>>>>> You try steering a ship wihtout any power.
>>>>> I have posted about this to another poster. The two pilot might
>>>>> have hit
>>>>> the wrong button and turned off the power.
>>>>>
>>>>> The press mentioned the ship "throwing an anchor". My explanation is
>>>>> that when the anchor hit the sea floor, the anchor chain would pull on
>>>>> the ship. Since the anchor is attached to the bow of the ship, the
>>>>> pulling force from the anchor chain would pull the ship to one side,
>>>>> depending on which side the anchor came from. In this case, you can
>>>>> see from the accident video that the ship suddenly jerked to the
>>>>> right hand side (starboard side) and hit the bridge. But in one
>>>>> news article,
>>>>> reportedly the pilot dropped the anchor on the "port" side. If this
>>>>> was
>>>>> the case, the ship's bow should have jerked to the left side and
>>>>> avoided
>>>>> hitting the bridge. Apparently the pilots couldn't tell which side of
>>>>> the ship is called "port", and which side of the ship is called
>>>>> "starboard", and dropped the anchor on the wrong side.
>>>>>
>>>> Loads of things might have happened.  The problems is that you have no
>>>> idea what happened and yet you write as if you do.   No amount of
>>>> detailed speculation on your part changes that.
>> This was meant to be my last word on this subject and you're just
>> repeating yourself now, so it will continue to be my last word.
>>
>> Except that iirc you had predicted who will be held legally responsible.
>> We got away from that topic, but I want to point out that you were wrong
>> there for the same reason.  That is, speculation from a distance does
>> not decide the facts.
>>
>> Your reply is unchanged below:
>>>
>>> You still have the "my boys can do no wrong" attitude. The harbour
>>> pilots were in control of the ship. Steering the ship out of dangerous
>>> waters is what they were there for. Their mistakes are the the most
>>> likely culprit.
>>>
>>> Here I repeat my previous reply to you:
>>>
>>> There is one thing very sinister about the aftermath of this incident.
>>> The Baltimore port authority was digging into all the details about the
>>> history of the ship, trying to pin blame on the ship, the ship owner, or
>>> the ship owner's parent company, but the Baltimore port authorities has
>>> never made any mention of the identities of the two pilots who were in
>>> charge of steering the ship through the water channel, their training,
>>> and the years of services. Don't you think it is odd? You'd think big
>>> boo-boo of this magnitude, the press would delve into the detail of the
>>> two pilots, and the public should know.
>>>
>>> Please mark my word. I suspect the Baltimore port authority is
>>> deliberately hiding something. The truth they want to hide is that the
>>> two pilots who ultimately should be responsible for steering the ship
>>> into the bridge are very likely new hires who hardly had, if any,
>>> previous experience in piloting before this accident. The two pilots
>>> might even be "extreme DEI hires": both might be young, black, female
>>> and gay.  ThinkKarine Jean-Pierre with pink and purple hair.
>>>
>>>
>
>
> This is my reply to ED P's post. Apparently a trainee pilot from
> Baltimore port authority was handling all the maneuvers on the bridge of
> the container ship, right until the crash:
>
>
> https://www.thebaltimorebanner.com/baltimore/key-bridge-collapse-ship-pilot-LKDWFY237JFR5NCR7KXZIWRDVA/
>
> The following paragraphs are excerpts from your link:
>
> #1
> “The pilot ordered a hard left rudder, and dropped the port anchor to
> try to keep the ship from moving right,” said Clayton L. Diamond,
> executive director and general counsel for The American Pilots’
> Association. “The pilot did everything he could to slow the ship.”
>
> #2
> The Maryland pilot who guided the ship received years of training to
> become a pilot, has a state license which requires knowledge of the
> local waters and has more than a decade of experience. An apprentice
> pilot was on board observing the pilot, but Diamond said he was new to
> the pilot training program, having started on Feb. 1, and was not
> involved in any of the decisions during the three minutes before the crash.
>
> From the above two paragraphs (apparently carefully crafted), I can
> understand that there was a pilot and a trainee. The second paragraph
> above pointed out that the trainee "was not involved in any of the
> decisions during the three minutes before the crash". That implies that
> the trainee was making the decisions and operating the controls on
> his/her own all the time, but was following orders from the pilot during
> the three minutes before the crash. Everybody should understand that
> when a pilot and a trainee pilot are present on the bridge of the ship,
> the trainee pilot would be operating the controls (theoretically under
> the supervision of the pilot, but generally that's not the case in real
> life. The pilot would be drinking coffee, walking around, and yapping
> with other people on the bridge). The trainee operating the controls is
> how the trainee gets the experience in operating the controls.
>
> From the first paragraph: "the pilot ordered a hard left rudder,
> dropped the port anchor...". Apparently the pilot ordered the trainee to
> drop the "port" anchor. From the crash video, the ship jerked to the
> right and hit the bridge. If really the "port" anchor was dropped, the
> ship would have jerked to the left. Apparently the trainee did not
> understand "port" means left, and "starboard" means right, and dropped
> the wrong anchor.
>
> The ship's black box should reveal what the hell the trainee had done
> and what buttons were pushed. I hope they have surveillance video of the
> inside of the ship's bridge to see what the hell the pilot and the
> trainee were doing the whole time.

We all have no doubt that the final report will show the idiocy of your
idiotic claims about this accident. Nothing you have said connects to
any reality.

bud-- wrote on 4/5/2024 5:01 PM:
>
> It is a genuinely stupid idea to think that a pilot will directly
> operate controls (in "all sorts of control rooms") instead of talking
> to someone who's job is to run the controls.
> As is made clear in the post by Bob F.

That is the job of the harbour pilots, you ignorant mouthbreathing
idiot. That's what they are trained and paid for, you ignorant
mouthbreathing idiot. There are videos on the internet they have
simulators to train harbour pilot how to operate the controls in the
control room on the bridge of a gigantic container ship, you ignorant
mouthbreathing idiot!!!

On 4/5/2024 8:04 PM, 😎 Mighty Wannabe ✅ wrote:
> bud-- wrote on 4/5/2024 5:01 PM:
>>
>> It is a genuinely stupid idea to think that a pilot will directly
>> operate controls (in "all sorts of control rooms") instead of talking
>> to someone who's job is to run the controls.
>> As is made clear in the post by Bob F.
>
> That is the job of the harbour pilots, you ignorant mouthbreathing
> idiot. That's what they are trained and paid for, you ignorant
> mouthbreathing idiot. There are videos on the internet they have
> simulators to train harbour pilot how to operate the controls in the
> control room on the bridge of a gigantic container ship, you ignorant
> mouthbreathing idiot!!!
>
>
>
>

That is my job. I'm the HELMSMAN and steer the ship according to the
direction of the pilot

I know my ship and how it reacts and would never give it to someone else
or I'd lose my job.

On 4/5/2024 6:04 PM, 😎 Mighty Wannabe ✅ wrote:
> bud-- wrote on 4/5/2024 5:01 PM:
>>
>> It is a genuinely stupid idea to think that a pilot will directly
>> operate controls (in "all sorts of control rooms") instead of talking
>> to someone who's job is to run the controls.
>> As is made clear in the post by Bob F.
>
> That is the job of the harbour pilots, you ignorant mouthbreathing
> idiot. That's what they are trained and paid for, you ignorant
> mouthbreathing idiot. There are videos on the internet they have
> simulators to train harbour pilot how to operate the controls in the
> control room on the bridge of a gigantic container ship, you ignorant
> mouthbreathing idiot!!!
>

Your cognitive disability preventing you from reading and understanding
Bob F's post (copied from a reliable source) is noted. Stupid idea
continues.

!!!!!

The pilot does not want to get the Helmsman fired.

So pilot operates controls he is not familiar with in "all sorts of
control rooms". Do you suppose there is a huge liability issue there? Do
you suppose anyone (but you) would be stupid enough to do that?

On 4/5/2024 1:38 PM, bud-- wrote:
> On 4/5/2024 6:04 AM, Bob F wrote:
>> On 4/5/2024 4:48 AM, Bob F wrote:
>>> On 4/3/2024 8:36 PM, 😎 Mighty Wannabe ✅ wrote:
>>>> micky wrote on 4/3/2024 11:06 PM:
>>>>> In alt.home.repair, on Wed, 3 Apr 2024 22:28:36 -0400, ? Mighty
>>>>> Wannabe
>>>>> ? <@.> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Bob F wrote on 4/3/2024 9:58 PM:
>>>>>>> On 4/3/2024 6:30 PM, ? Mighty Wannabe ? wrote:
>>>>>>>> Ed P wrote on 4/3/2024 9:05 PM:
>>>>>>>>> On 4/3/2024 8:31 PM, ? Mighty Wannabe ? wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Bob F wrote on 4/3/2024 7:59 PM:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/3/2024 3:02 PM, ? Mighty Wannabe ? wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> micky wrote on 4/3/2024 9:46 AM:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Can't find the thread about the Key Bridge being knocked
>>>>>>>>>>>>> down in
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Baltimore, but wanted to comment on the racist pigs around the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> USA who
>>>>>>>>>>>>> claimed it had something to do with seeking diversity in
>>>>>>>>>>>>> who the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> shipping company hires.   What nonsense.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Did you notice that the news kept mentioning the "pilot"
>>>>>>>>>>>> instead
>>>>>>>>>>>> of the "captain"? The captain didn't hit the Baltimore Key
>>>>>>>>>>>> Bridge. The "pilot" who was working for Baltimore was steering
>>>>>>>>>>>> the ship, not the captain. The pilot was hired to do just that,
>>>>>>>>>>>> because the pilot knows the water channel like the back of his
>>>>>>>>>>>> hand. The pilot knows where the ship should avoid so that it
>>>>>>>>>>>> won't run aground.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Baltimore authorities cannot sue the captain of the ship or
>>>>>>>>>>>> owner
>>>>>>>>>>>> of the ship, because the "pilot" who was steering the ship
>>>>>>>>>>>> worked
>>>>>>>>>>>> for Baltimore.
>>>>>>>>>>> The pilot did not hit the bridge, the ship hit the bridge, after
>>>>>>>>>>> it's power systems failed. You actually think that was the
>>>>>>>>>>> pilots
>>>>>>>>>>> fault?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> How would you like to have been the second pilot, who was there
>>>>>>>>>>> being trained?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The Baltimore's pilot was at the helm. Good luck blaming anyone
>>>>>>>>>> else for the accident. The US will have to pick up the tab for
>>>>>>>>>> third party liability (people hurt/killed as a result of the
>>>>>>>>>> bridge
>>>>>>>>>> collapse) and property damage (the bridge and the vehicles that
>>>>>>>>>> fell into the water).
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> How We Steer A Cargo Ship
>>>>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3T-wFfPm37U
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> He was at the helm, but the helm did not work.  Can't pin that
>>>>>>>>> on him.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Nice video.  Did you notice in the last minute that the engines
>>>>>>>>> were
>>>>>>>>> running and making power?  The ship that hit the bridge did not
>>>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>>> that luxury.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Baltimore's pilot was at the helm. He might have accidentally
>>>>>>>> killed
>>>>>>>> the power by pushing the wrong button.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Are you Rod Speed??? You certainly have his stupid know it all
>>>>>>> attitude.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I merely put forward the best, unbiased analysis of what caused the
>>>>>> accident.
>>>>> Might be unbiased, but definitely not the best analysis.
>>>>>
>>>>> Other have answered pretty well but since you replied first to my
>>>>> post,
>>>>> I will take the bait.
>>>>>
>>>>> If I were driving a Ford with 1000 miles on it, and the rack and
>>>>> pinion
>>>>> locked up so that I coudlnt' steer it, do you think I would be liable
>>>>> for the damages that followed or Ford would?
>>>>
>>>> You were driving your own car. How's that relevant to the case of
>>>> the Baltimore harbour pilots at the helm of a strange (or not so
>>>> familiar) ship?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> It's the same here.  Assuming the engine could have been turned
>>>>> off, and
>>>>> that the pilot had the power to do that, and he did it, that would
>>>>> make
>>>>> the pilot and his employer liable. But you have to prove that by a
>>>>> preponderance of the evidence.
>>>>
>>>> I think there is a black box in ships like that. I think they got
>>>> the hold of the black box.
>>>>
>>>> https://www.businessinsider.com/baltimore-bridge-collapse-cargo-ship-black-box-recovered-2024-3
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> It could also be that the owner of the ship didn't maintain the
>>>>> engines
>>>>> properly and that caused the engines to stop.  That would make the
>>>>> owner
>>>>> liable.
>>>>
>>>> It worked fine all over the world until the Baltimore harbour pilots
>>>> took over the helm. I'd blame the pilots first.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> It could be, I hear, that the fuel they used was bad and that made the
>>>>> engnine and the electrical generating engines stop. That could make
>>>>> the
>>>>> vendor of the fuel liable, unless maybe he took the standard amount of
>>>>> care but someone else not related to the fuel vendor intentionally
>>>>> damaged the fuel.   Or it could be the fuel wholesaler or producer
>>>>> made
>>>>> bad fuel that fouled the engines.
>>>>
>>>> Bad fuel won't make the power go out and come back on.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> It could be that none of those parties were negligent but it turns out
>>>>> the electical generating engines fail at a certain age, and it was
>>>>> that
>>>>> old but they buyers weren't warned.   The maker of the engines might
>>>>> have known they fail at that age and not warned the buyers, or
>>>>> maybe he
>>>>> didn't know this.
>>>>
>>>> This does not explain why the power went out and came back on.
>>>>
>>>>> I'm sure there are other things that could have caused this.
>>>>
>>>> Fat finger pushing the wrong button?
>>>
>>> The pilot never touches any buttons, other than perhaps the switch on
>>> a microphone.
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> It's not clear from afar, and it's not even clear to those on the
>>>>> scene,
>>>>> if someone was at fault and if so, who it was.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> You keep trying to make excuses for the Baltimore harbour pilots
>>>> when their human error is the most likely culprit of this disaster.
>>>
>>> You keep blaming the pilot, without an ounce of evidence or any
>>> reasonable way a pilot could have caused the power failure(s).
>>>
>>> When the reports are made, equipment failure will most likely be the
>>> cause, and the pilot is highly unlikely to be held responsible, since
>>> there is nothing a pilot could do to cause equipment failures. Some
>>> form of poor maintenance will likely be cited as the cause, with crew
>>> operational mistakes being the most likely alternative.
>>>
>>
>> "There were two ship pilots aboard the ship as it left its berth in
>> the Port of Baltimore. Can you tell us what ship pilots do?
>>
>> Post: Ship pilots are brought on board in what are considered
>> restricted maneuverability or navigation areas. They are local experts
>> who are usually certified by the state or federal government to
>> provide advice to the master of the vessel as to how to control the
>> vessel, safely and adequately, through the pilotage waters, which in
>> this case would be down the river from the Port of Baltimore.
>>
>> Pilots are well practiced in close-quarters maneuvering, especially
>> with tugboats and docking the vessel alongside the assigned berth.
>>
>> But a pilot doesn’t come aboard the ship and take control of it, do they?
>>
>> Post: They are just advisers to the captain, who is known as the
>> “master.” The master still has full responsibility for the safe
>> navigation of the vessel. So the pilot will meet the ship out at sea
>> or at the dock if it’s in port and leaving to go to sea. They proceed
>> up to the bridge. Usually they exchange greetings, and usually a
>> little bit of ship’s swag is given, either a hat or something else, or
>> at least a cup of coffee.
>>
>> They then set up their gear. With the electronics that we now have,
>> they plug into the ship’s electronic chart data information system.
>> And then they conduct the pilot exchange with the master of the
>> vessel, where the master of the vessel describes where they are going,
>> what the characteristics of the ship are, who’s on the bridge, what
>> their first language is and the air draft of the vessel, which refers
>> to how high out of the water the vessel is, so that you know whether
>> you can take the ship under a bridge safely.
>>
>> Once that’s completed, the pilot then starts instructing the officer
>> of the watch or the captain – those are usually the same person – in
>> how to get to where they need to be to dock the ship, or undock the
>> ship and bring it to sea. This instructing is done during complex
>> maneuvers, not all the time. The pilot can also say he’s not going to
>> do it, and can shut down their operations if conditions are unsafe or
>> if they feel that the vessel is not in condition to be able to transit
>> safely. That happens a lot, especially in fog.
>>
>> The ship pilot also interacts with the Coast Guard Vessel Traffic
>> Service and other ships in the area, and coordinates with the tugboats
>> and line handlers to be able to safely maneuver the vessel close to
>> the pier or when a ship is leaving the berth."
>>
>> https://today.tamu.edu/2024/03/26/how-captains-and-harbor-pilots-safely-guide-ships-into-port/
>>
>
> Interesting description.
>
> -----
> Stupid idea - that a pilot directly operates the controls of a ship he
> has no experience operating. (If that is not completely obvious read
> above.)
>
> Stupid idea - that there is a readily accessible easily operated button
> on the bridge that will shut down the engines. (If I am driving and push
> the car Run/Off button nothing happens.)
>
> Someone is competing for Ed's coveted Worst Post Ever award. With stiff
> competition I don't think he has quite made it yet.
>

bud-- wrote on 4/5/2024 11:37 PM:
> On 4/5/2024 6:04 PM, 😎 Mighty Wannabe ✅ wrote:
>> bud-- wrote on 4/5/2024 5:01 PM:
>>>
>>> It is a genuinely stupid idea to think that a pilot will directly
>>> operate controls (in "all sorts of control rooms") instead of
>>> talking to someone who's job is to run the controls.
>>> As is made clear in the post by Bob F.
>>
>> That is the job of the harbour pilots, you ignorant mouthbreathing
>> idiot. That's what they are trained and paid for, you ignorant
>> mouthbreathing idiot. There are videos on the internet they have
>> simulators to train harbour pilot how to operate the controls in the
>> control room on the bridge of a gigantic container ship, you ignorant
>> mouthbreathing idiot!!!
>>
>
> My cognitive disability preventing me from reading and understanding!!!!!
>

That's true. You are a mouthbreathing idiot.

This is my reply to ED P's post. Apparently a trainee pilot from
Baltimore port authority was handling all the maneuvers on the bridge of
the container ship, right until the crash:

https://www.thebaltimorebanner.com/baltimore/key-bridge-collapse-ship-pilot-LKDWFY237JFR5NCR7KXZIWRDVA/

The following paragraphs are excerpts from your link:

#1
“The pilot ordered a hard left rudder, and dropped the port anchor to
try to keep the ship from moving right,” said Clayton L. Diamond,
executive director and general counsel for The American Pilots’
Association. “The pilot did everything he could to slow the ship.”

#2
The Maryland pilot who guided the ship received years of training to
become a pilot, has a state license which requires knowledge of the
local waters and has more than a decade of experience. An apprentice
pilot was on board observing the pilot, but Diamond said he was new to
the pilot training program, having started on Feb. 1, and was not
involved in any of the decisions during the three minutes before the crash.

From the above two paragraphs (apparently carefully crafted), I can
understand that there was a pilot and a trainee. The second paragraph
above pointed out that the trainee "was not involved in any of the
decisions during the three minutes before the crash". That implies that
the trainee was making the decisions and operating the controls on
his/her own all the time, but was following orders from the pilot during
the three minutes before the crash. Everybody should understand that
when a pilot and a trainee pilot are present on the bridge of the ship,
the trainee pilot would be operating the controls (theoretically under
the supervision of the pilot, but generally that's not the case in real
life. The pilot would be drinking coffee, walking around, and yapping
with other people on the bridge). The trainee operating the controls is
how the trainee gets the experience in operating the controls.

From the first paragraph: "the pilot ordered a hard left rudder,
dropped the port anchor...". Apparently the pilot ordered the trainee to
drop the "port" anchor. From the crash video, the ship jerked to the
right and hit the bridge. If really the "port" anchor was dropped, the
ship would have jerked to the left. Apparently the trainee did not
understand "port" means left, and "starboard" means right, and dropped
the wrong anchor.

The ship's black box should reveal what the hell the trainee had done
and what buttons were pushed. I hope they have surveillance video of the
inside of the ship's bridge to see what the hell the pilot and the
trainee were doing the whole time.

bud-- wrote on 4/5/2024 11:49 PM:
> On 4/5/2024 1:38 PM, bud-- wrote:
>> On 4/5/2024 6:04 AM, Bob F wrote:
>>> On 4/5/2024 4:48 AM, Bob F wrote:
>>>> On 4/3/2024 8:36 PM, 😎 Mighty Wannabe ✅ wrote:
>>>>> micky wrote on 4/3/2024 11:06 PM:
>>>>>> In alt.home.repair, on Wed, 3 Apr 2024 22:28:36 -0400, ? Mighty
>>>>>> Wannabe
>>>>>> ? <@.> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Bob F wrote on 4/3/2024 9:58 PM:
>>>>>>>> On 4/3/2024 6:30 PM, ? Mighty Wannabe ? wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Ed P wrote on 4/3/2024 9:05 PM:
>>>>>>>>>> On 4/3/2024 8:31 PM, ? Mighty Wannabe ? wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Bob F wrote on 4/3/2024 7:59 PM:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/3/2024 3:02 PM, ? Mighty Wannabe ? wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> micky wrote on 4/3/2024 9:46 AM:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Can't find the thread about the Key Bridge being knocked
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> down in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Baltimore, but wanted to comment on the racist pigs
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> around the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> USA who
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> claimed it had something to do with seeking diversity in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> who the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> shipping company hires.   What nonsense.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Did you notice that the news kept mentioning the "pilot"
>>>>>>>>>>>>> instead
>>>>>>>>>>>>> of the "captain"? The captain didn't hit the Baltimore Key
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bridge. The "pilot" who was working for Baltimore was
>>>>>>>>>>>>> steering
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the ship, not the captain. The pilot was hired to do just
>>>>>>>>>>>>> that,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> because the pilot knows the water channel like the back of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> his
>>>>>>>>>>>>> hand. The pilot knows where the ship should avoid so that it
>>>>>>>>>>>>> won't run aground.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Baltimore authorities cannot sue the captain of the ship
>>>>>>>>>>>>> or owner
>>>>>>>>>>>>> of the ship, because the "pilot" who was steering the ship
>>>>>>>>>>>>> worked
>>>>>>>>>>>>> for Baltimore.
>>>>>>>>>>>> The pilot did not hit the bridge, the ship hit the bridge,
>>>>>>>>>>>> after
>>>>>>>>>>>> it's power systems failed. You actually think that was the
>>>>>>>>>>>> pilots
>>>>>>>>>>>> fault?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> How would you like to have been the second pilot, who was
>>>>>>>>>>>> there
>>>>>>>>>>>> being trained?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The Baltimore's pilot was at the helm. Good luck blaming anyone
>>>>>>>>>>> else for the accident. The US will have to pick up the tab for
>>>>>>>>>>> third party liability (people hurt/killed as a result of the
>>>>>>>>>>> bridge
>>>>>>>>>>> collapse) and property damage (the bridge and the vehicles that
>>>>>>>>>>> fell into the water).
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> How We Steer A Cargo Ship
>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3T-wFfPm37U
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> He was at the helm, but the helm did not work. Can't pin that
>>>>>>>>>> on him.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Nice video.  Did you notice in the last minute that the
>>>>>>>>>> engines were
>>>>>>>>>> running and making power?  The ship that hit the bridge did
>>>>>>>>>> not have
>>>>>>>>>> that luxury.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Baltimore's pilot was at the helm. He might have accidentally
>>>>>>>>> killed
>>>>>>>>> the power by pushing the wrong button.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Are you Rod Speed??? You certainly have his stupid know it all
>>>>>>>> attitude.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I merely put forward the best, unbiased analysis of what caused the
>>>>>>> accident.
>>>>>> Might be unbiased, but definitely not the best analysis.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Other have answered pretty well but since you replied first to my
>>>>>> post,
>>>>>> I will take the bait.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If I were driving a Ford with 1000 miles on it, and the rack and
>>>>>> pinion
>>>>>> locked up so that I coudlnt' steer it, do you think I would be
>>>>>> liable
>>>>>> for the damages that followed or Ford would?
>>>>>
>>>>> You were driving your own car. How's that relevant to the case of
>>>>> the Baltimore harbour pilots at the helm of a strange (or not so
>>>>> familiar) ship?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> It's the same here.  Assuming the engine could have been turned
>>>>>> off, and
>>>>>> that the pilot had the power to do that, and he did it, that
>>>>>> would make
>>>>>> the pilot and his employer liable. But you have to prove that by a
>>>>>> preponderance of the evidence.
>>>>>
>>>>> I think there is a black box in ships like that. I think they got
>>>>> the hold of the black box.
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.businessinsider.com/baltimore-bridge-collapse-cargo-ship-black-box-recovered-2024-3
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> It could also be that the owner of the ship didn't maintain the
>>>>>> engines
>>>>>> properly and that caused the engines to stop.  That would make
>>>>>> the owner
>>>>>> liable.
>>>>>
>>>>> It worked fine all over the world until the Baltimore harbour
>>>>> pilots took over the helm. I'd blame the pilots first.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> It could be, I hear, that the fuel they used was bad and that
>>>>>> made the
>>>>>> engnine and the electrical generating engines stop. That could
>>>>>> make the
>>>>>> vendor of the fuel liable, unless maybe he took the standard
>>>>>> amount of
>>>>>> care but someone else not related to the fuel vendor intentionally
>>>>>> damaged the fuel.   Or it could be the fuel wholesaler or
>>>>>> producer made
>>>>>> bad fuel that fouled the engines.
>>>>>
>>>>> Bad fuel won't make the power go out and come back on.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> It could be that none of those parties were negligent but it
>>>>>> turns out
>>>>>> the electical generating engines fail at a certain age, and it
>>>>>> was that
>>>>>> old but they buyers weren't warned.   The maker of the engines might
>>>>>> have known they fail at that age and not warned the buyers, or
>>>>>> maybe he
>>>>>> didn't know this.
>>>>>
>>>>> This does not explain why the power went out and came back on.
>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm sure there are other things that could have caused this.
>>>>>
>>>>> Fat finger pushing the wrong button?
>>>>
>>>> The pilot never touches any buttons, other than perhaps the switch
>>>> on a microphone.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It's not clear from afar, and it's not even clear to those on the
>>>>>> scene,
>>>>>> if someone was at fault and if so, who it was.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> You keep trying to make excuses for the Baltimore harbour pilots
>>>>> when their human error is the most likely culprit of this disaster.
>>>>
>>>> You keep blaming the pilot, without an ounce of evidence or any
>>>> reasonable way a pilot could have caused the power failure(s).
>>>>
>>>> When the reports are made, equipment failure will most likely be
>>>> the cause, and the pilot is highly unlikely to be held responsible,
>>>> since there is nothing a pilot could do to cause equipment
>>>> failures. Some form of poor maintenance will likely be cited as the
>>>> cause, with crew operational mistakes being the most likely
>>>> alternative.
>>>>
>>>
>>> "There were two ship pilots aboard the ship as it left its berth in
>>> the Port of Baltimore. Can you tell us what ship pilots do?
>>>
>>> Post: Ship pilots are brought on board in what are considered
>>> restricted maneuverability or navigation areas. They are local
>>> experts who are usually certified by the state or federal government
>>> to provide advice to the master of the vessel as to how to control
>>> the vessel, safely and adequately, through the pilotage waters,
>>> which in this case would be down the river from the Port of Baltimore.
>>>
>>> Pilots are well practiced in close-quarters maneuvering, especially
>>> with tugboats and docking the vessel alongside the assigned berth.
>>>
>>> But a pilot doesn’t come aboard the ship and take control of it, do
>>> they?
>>>
>>> Post: They are just advisers to the captain, who is known as the
>>> “master.” The master still has full responsibility for the safe
>>> navigation of the vessel. So the pilot will meet the ship out at sea
>>> or at the dock if it’s in port and leaving to go to sea. They
>>> proceed up to the bridge. Usually they exchange greetings, and
>>> usually a little bit of ship’s swag is given, either a hat or
>>> something else, or at least a cup of coffee.
>>>
>>> They then set up their gear. With the electronics that we now have,
>>> they plug into the ship’s electronic chart data information system.
>>> And then they conduct the pilot exchange with the master of the
>>> vessel, where the master of the vessel describes where they are
>>> going, what the characteristics of the ship are, who’s on the
>>> bridge, what their first language is and the air draft of the
>>> vessel, which refers to how high out of the water the vessel is, so
>>> that you know whether you can take the ship under a bridge safely.
>>>
>>> Once that’s completed, the pilot then starts instructing the officer
>>> of the watch or the captain – those are usually the same person – in
>>> how to get to where they need to be to dock the ship, or undock the
>>> ship and bring it to sea. This instructing is done during complex
>>> maneuvers, not all the time. The pilot can also say he’s not going
>>> to do it, and can shut down their operations if conditions are
>>> unsafe or if they feel that the vessel is not in condition to be
>>> able to transit safely. That happens a lot, especially in fog.
>>>
>>> The ship pilot also interacts with the Coast Guard Vessel Traffic
>>> Service and other ships in the area, and coordinates with the
>>> tugboats and line handlers to be able to safely maneuver the vessel
>>> close to the pier or when a ship is leaving the berth."
>>>
>>> https://today.tamu.edu/2024/03/26/how-captains-and-harbor-pilots-safely-guide-ships-into-port/
>>>
>>
>> Interesting description.
>>
>> -----
>> Stupid idea - that a pilot directly operates the controls of a ship
>> he has no experience operating. (If that is not completely obvious
>> read above.)
>>
>> Stupid idea - that there is a readily accessible easily operated
>> button on the bridge that will shut down the engines. (If I am
>> driving and push the car Run/Off button nothing happens.)
>>
>> Someone is competing for Ed's coveted Worst Post Ever award. With
>> stiff competition I don't think he has quite made it yet.
>>
>
> I may have accidentally deleted a Mighty Wannabe post, because I am a
> mouthbreathing idiot!!!
>

😎 Mighty Wannabe ✅ wrote on 4/6/2024 3:49 AM:
> bud-- wrote on 4/5/2024 11:49 PM:
>> On 4/5/2024 1:38 PM, bud-- wrote:
>>> On 4/5/2024 6:04 AM, Bob F wrote:
>>>> On 4/5/2024 4:48 AM, Bob F wrote:
>>>>> On 4/3/2024 8:36 PM, 😎 Mighty Wannabe ✅ wrote:
>>>>>> micky wrote on 4/3/2024 11:06 PM:
>>>>>>> In alt.home.repair, on Wed, 3 Apr 2024 22:28:36 -0400, ? Mighty
>>>>>>> Wannabe
>>>>>>> ? <@.> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Bob F wrote on 4/3/2024 9:58 PM:
>>>>>>>>> On 4/3/2024 6:30 PM, ? Mighty Wannabe ? wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Ed P wrote on 4/3/2024 9:05 PM:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/3/2024 8:31 PM, ? Mighty Wannabe ? wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> Bob F wrote on 4/3/2024 7:59 PM:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/3/2024 3:02 PM, ? Mighty Wannabe ? wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> micky wrote on 4/3/2024 9:46 AM:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Can't find the thread about the Key Bridge being knocked
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> down in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Baltimore, but wanted to comment on the racist pigs
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> around the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> USA who
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> claimed it had something to do with seeking diversity in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> who the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> shipping company hires.   What nonsense.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Did you notice that the news kept mentioning the "pilot"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> instead
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of the "captain"? The captain didn't hit the Baltimore Key
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bridge. The "pilot" who was working for Baltimore was
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> steering
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the ship, not the captain. The pilot was hired to do just
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> because the pilot knows the water channel like the back
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of his
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hand. The pilot knows where the ship should avoid so that it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> won't run aground.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Baltimore authorities cannot sue the captain of the ship
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or owner
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of the ship, because the "pilot" who was steering the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ship worked
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for Baltimore.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> The pilot did not hit the bridge, the ship hit the bridge,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> after
>>>>>>>>>>>>> it's power systems failed. You actually think that was the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> pilots
>>>>>>>>>>>>> fault?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> How would you like to have been the second pilot, who was
>>>>>>>>>>>>> there
>>>>>>>>>>>>> being trained?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> The Baltimore's pilot was at the helm. Good luck blaming
>>>>>>>>>>>> anyone
>>>>>>>>>>>> else for the accident. The US will have to pick up the tab for
>>>>>>>>>>>> third party liability (people hurt/killed as a result of
>>>>>>>>>>>> the bridge
>>>>>>>>>>>> collapse) and property damage (the bridge and the vehicles
>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>> fell into the water).
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> How We Steer A Cargo Ship
>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3T-wFfPm37U
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> He was at the helm, but the helm did not work. Can't pin
>>>>>>>>>>> that on him.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Nice video.  Did you notice in the last minute that the
>>>>>>>>>>> engines were
>>>>>>>>>>> running and making power?  The ship that hit the bridge did
>>>>>>>>>>> not have
>>>>>>>>>>> that luxury.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Baltimore's pilot was at the helm. He might have accidentally
>>>>>>>>>> killed
>>>>>>>>>> the power by pushing the wrong button.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Are you Rod Speed??? You certainly have his stupid know it all
>>>>>>>>> attitude.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I merely put forward the best, unbiased analysis of what caused
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> accident.
>>>>>>> Might be unbiased, but definitely not the best analysis.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Other have answered pretty well but since you replied first to
>>>>>>> my post,
>>>>>>> I will take the bait.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If I were driving a Ford with 1000 miles on it, and the rack and
>>>>>>> pinion
>>>>>>> locked up so that I coudlnt' steer it, do you think I would be
>>>>>>> liable
>>>>>>> for the damages that followed or Ford would?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You were driving your own car. How's that relevant to the case of
>>>>>> the Baltimore harbour pilots at the helm of a strange (or not so
>>>>>> familiar) ship?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It's the same here.  Assuming the engine could have been turned
>>>>>>> off, and
>>>>>>> that the pilot had the power to do that, and he did it, that
>>>>>>> would make
>>>>>>> the pilot and his employer liable. But you have to prove that by a
>>>>>>> preponderance of the evidence.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think there is a black box in ships like that. I think they got
>>>>>> the hold of the black box.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.businessinsider.com/baltimore-bridge-collapse-cargo-ship-black-box-recovered-2024-3
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It could also be that the owner of the ship didn't maintain the
>>>>>>> engines
>>>>>>> properly and that caused the engines to stop.  That would make
>>>>>>> the owner
>>>>>>> liable.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It worked fine all over the world until the Baltimore harbour
>>>>>> pilots took over the helm. I'd blame the pilots first.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It could be, I hear, that the fuel they used was bad and that
>>>>>>> made the
>>>>>>> engnine and the electrical generating engines stop. That could
>>>>>>> make the
>>>>>>> vendor of the fuel liable, unless maybe he took the standard
>>>>>>> amount of
>>>>>>> care but someone else not related to the fuel vendor intentionally
>>>>>>> damaged the fuel.   Or it could be the fuel wholesaler or
>>>>>>> producer made
>>>>>>> bad fuel that fouled the engines.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Bad fuel won't make the power go out and come back on.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It could be that none of those parties were negligent but it
>>>>>>> turns out
>>>>>>> the electical generating engines fail at a certain age, and it
>>>>>>> was that
>>>>>>> old but they buyers weren't warned.   The maker of the engines
>>>>>>> might
>>>>>>> have known they fail at that age and not warned the buyers, or
>>>>>>> maybe he
>>>>>>> didn't know this.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This does not explain why the power went out and came back on.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm sure there are other things that could have caused this.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Fat finger pushing the wrong button?
>>>>>
>>>>> The pilot never touches any buttons, other than perhaps the switch
>>>>> on a microphone.
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It's not clear from afar, and it's not even clear to those on
>>>>>>> the scene,
>>>>>>> if someone was at fault and if so, who it was.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You keep trying to make excuses for the Baltimore harbour pilots
>>>>>> when their human error is the most likely culprit of this disaster.
>>>>>
>>>>> You keep blaming the pilot, without an ounce of evidence or any
>>>>> reasonable way a pilot could have caused the power failure(s).
>>>>>
>>>>> When the reports are made, equipment failure will most likely be
>>>>> the cause, and the pilot is highly unlikely to be held
>>>>> responsible, since there is nothing a pilot could do to cause
>>>>> equipment failures. Some form of poor maintenance will likely be
>>>>> cited as the cause, with crew operational mistakes being the most
>>>>> likely alternative.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "There were two ship pilots aboard the ship as it left its berth in
>>>> the Port of Baltimore. Can you tell us what ship pilots do?
>>>>
>>>> Post: Ship pilots are brought on board in what are considered
>>>> restricted maneuverability or navigation areas. They are local
>>>> experts who are usually certified by the state or federal
>>>> government to provide advice to the master of the vessel as to how
>>>> to control the vessel, safely and adequately, through the pilotage
>>>> waters, which in this case would be down the river from the Port of
>>>> Baltimore.
>>>>
>>>> Pilots are well practiced in close-quarters maneuvering, especially
>>>> with tugboats and docking the vessel alongside the assigned berth.
>>>>
>>>> But a pilot doesn’t come aboard the ship and take control of it, do
>>>> they?
>>>>
>>>> Post: They are just advisers to the captain, who is known as the
>>>> “master.” The master still has full responsibility for the safe
>>>> navigation of the vessel. So the pilot will meet the ship out at
>>>> sea or at the dock if it’s in port and leaving to go to sea. They
>>>> proceed up to the bridge. Usually they exchange greetings, and
>>>> usually a little bit of ship’s swag is given, either a hat or
>>>> something else, or at least a cup of coffee.
>>>>
>>>> They then set up their gear. With the electronics that we now have,
>>>> they plug into the ship’s electronic chart data information system.
>>>> And then they conduct the pilot exchange with the master of the
>>>> vessel, where the master of the vessel describes where they are
>>>> going, what the characteristics of the ship are, who’s on the
>>>> bridge, what their first language is and the air draft of the
>>>> vessel, which refers to how high out of the water the vessel is, so
>>>> that you know whether you can take the ship under a bridge safely.
>>>>
>>>> Once that’s completed, the pilot then starts instructing the
>>>> officer of the watch or the captain – those are usually the same
>>>> person – in how to get to where they need to be to dock the ship,
>>>> or undock the ship and bring it to sea. This instructing is done
>>>> during complex maneuvers, not all the time. The pilot can also say
>>>> he’s not going to do it, and can shut down their operations if
>>>> conditions are unsafe or if they feel that the vessel is not in
>>>> condition to be able to transit safely. That happens a lot,
>>>> especially in fog.
>>>>
>>>> The ship pilot also interacts with the Coast Guard Vessel Traffic
>>>> Service and other ships in the area, and coordinates with the
>>>> tugboats and line handlers to be able to safely maneuver the vessel
>>>> close to the pier or when a ship is leaving the berth."
>>>>
>>>> https://today.tamu.edu/2024/03/26/how-captains-and-harbor-pilots-safely-guide-ships-into-port/
>>>>
>>>
>>> Interesting description.
>>>
>>> -----
>>> Stupid idea - that a pilot directly operates the controls of a ship
>>> he has no experience operating. (If that is not completely obvious
>>> read above.)
>>>
>>> Stupid idea - that there is a readily accessible easily operated
>>> button on the bridge that will shut down the engines. (If I am
>>> driving and push the car Run/Off button nothing happens.)
>>>
>>> Someone is competing for Ed's coveted Worst Post Ever award. With
>>> stiff competition I don't think he has quite made it yet.
>>>
>>
>> I may have accidentally deleted a Mighty Wannabe post, because I am a
>> mouthbreathing idiot!!!
>>
>
> Fear not!!!
>
>
> This is my reply to ED P's post. Apparently a trainee pilot from
> Baltimore port authority was handling all the maneuvers on the bridge
> of the container ship, right until the crash:
>
>
> https://www.thebaltimorebanner.com/baltimore/key-bridge-collapse-ship-pilot-LKDWFY237JFR5NCR7KXZIWRDVA/
>
>
> The following paragraphs are excerpts from your link:
>
> #1
> “The pilot ordered a hard left rudder, and dropped the port anchor to
> try to keep the ship from moving right,” said Clayton L. Diamond,
> executive director and general counsel for The American Pilots’
> Association. “The pilot did everything he could to slow the ship.”
>
> #2
> The Maryland pilot who guided the ship received years of training to
> become a pilot, has a state license which requires knowledge of the
> local waters and has more than a decade of experience. An apprentice
> pilot was on board observing the pilot, but Diamond said he was new to
> the pilot training program, having started on Feb. 1, and was not
> involved in any of the decisions during the three minutes before the
> crash.
>
> From the above two paragraphs (apparently carefully crafted), I can
> understand that there was a pilot and a trainee. The second paragraph
> above pointed out that the trainee "was not involved in any of the
> decisions during the three minutes before the crash". That implies
> that the trainee was making the decisions and operating the controls
> on his/her own all the time, but was following orders from the pilot
> during the three minutes before the crash. Everybody should understand
> that when a pilot and a trainee pilot are present on the bridge of the
> ship, the trainee pilot would be operating the controls (theoretically
> under the supervision of the pilot, but generally that's not the case
> in real life. The pilot would be drinking coffee, walking around, and
> yapping with other people on the bridge). The trainee operating the
> controls is how the trainee gets the experience in operating the
> controls.
>
> From the first paragraph: "the pilot ordered a hard left rudder,
> dropped the port anchor...". Apparently the pilot ordered the trainee
> to drop the "port" anchor. From the crash video, the ship jerked to
> the right and hit the bridge. If really the "port" anchor was dropped,
> the ship would have jerked to the left. Apparently the trainee did not
> understand "port" means left, and "starboard" means right, and dropped
> the wrong anchor.
>
> The ship's black box should reveal what the hell the trainee had done
> and what buttons were pushed. I hope they have surveillance video of
> the inside of the ship's bridge to see what the hell the pilot and the
> trainee were doing the whole time.
>
>