On Wednesday, September 28, 2022 at 4:00:31 PM UTC-5, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> On Wednesday, September 28, 2022 at 4:23:10 PM UTC-4, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > On Tuesday, September 27, 2022 at 10:35:24 PM UTC-5, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, September 27, 2022 at 11:16:33 PM UTC-4, russell...@yahoo..com wrote:
> > > > On Tuesday, September 27, 2022 at 4:51:37 PM UTC-5, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> > > > > On Tuesday, September 27, 2022 at 2:20:22 AM UTC-4, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > > > > > On Monday, September 26, 2022 at 5:04:29 PM UTC-5, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> > > > > > > On Monday, September 26, 2022 at 2:34:44 AM UTC-4, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > > > > > > > On Tuesday, September 20, 2022 at 5:20:11 PM UTC-5, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> > > > > > > > > On Tuesday, September 20, 2022 at 5:33:58 PM UTC-4, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > On Tuesday, September 20, 2022 at 2:15:36 PM UTC-5, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > On Monday, September 19, 2022 at 11:57:02 PM UTC-4, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > On Monday, September 19, 2022 at 7:26:34 PM UTC-5, Markem618 wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, 19 Sep 2022 17:10:28 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
> > > > > > > > > > > > > <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >For PVC gluing, these are the parts I need.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >https://www.menards.com/main/plumbing/pipe-fittings/pvc-pipe-fittings/nibco-reg-hub-pvc-sanitary-tee-dwv/k09920c/p-1444449194051-c-8571.htm?tid=-1130025097665889175&ipos=48
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >https://www.menards.com/main/plumbing/pipe-fittings/pvc-pipe-fittings/4-pvc-sewer-and-drain-stop-coupling/36-665/p-1100429375664603-c-8571.htm
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >https://www.menards.com/main/plumbing/pipe-fittings/pvc-pipe-fittings/pvc-sch-40-dwv-plain-end-cellular-core-pipe/pvc044001000hc/p-1444426398146-c-8571.htm
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >https://www.menards.com/main/plumbing/plumbing-installation-repair/toilet-installation/sioux-chief-4-hub-pvc-toilet-flange/886-4ppk/p-1444442709166-c-9418.htm?tid=-5156148938299798422&ipos=53
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >For the Fernco sanitary tee option.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >https://www.amazon.com/Fernco-Inc-PQT-400-4-Inch-Degree/dp/B000BQQZEI
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >https://www.menards.com/main/plumbing/pipe-fittings/pvc-pipe-fittings/pvc-sch-40-dwv-plain-end-cellular-core-pipe/pvc044001000hc/p-1444426398146-c-8571.htm
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >https://www.menards.com/main/plumbing/plumbing-installation-repair/toilet-installation/sioux-chief-4-hub-pvc-toilet-flange/886-4ppk/p-1444442709166-c-9418.htm?tid=-5156148938299798422&ipos=53
> > > > > > > > > > > > > If you do glue, set it up dry, mark across the joints with a marker so
> > > > > > > > > > > > > you can line them back up. Marking would the flange on the floor so
> > > > > > > > > > > > > the toilet is not skewed. You can turn them about an 1/8 to a 1/4 turn
> > > > > > > > > > > > > usually.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > I think I would go with Fernco route though, easier to line it up
> > > > > > > > > > > > > nice. Quick and easy with existing plumbing is nice.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Nice thoughts DerbyDad.
> > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for the advice to do it dry and put marks on the pieces first. I knew it would be critical to make sure the sanitary tee was straight up and down and directly under the hole in the subfloor. But thought I'd just make it work. Doing it dry and putting marks on everything is much smarter.
> > > > > > > > > > > The thing to be aware of with dry fitting PVC is that fittings do not
> > > > > > > > > > > typically seat fully when dry. You'll get close, but they'll slip in farther
> > > > > > > > > > > once the glue is applied. Sometimes it's as much as a 50% difference
> > > > > > > > > > > per joint.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Measuring the actual depth of the socket is actually the better option, especially
> > > > > > > > > > > if you don't have any slack in the pipes.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Don't take my word for it...
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > <https://terrylove.com/forums/index.php?threads/is-there-a-trick-to-dry-fitting-pvc.62397/>
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > For some reason, I don't like the Fernco option. It does not seem permanent.
> > > > > > > > > > > Don't take this the wrong way, but when you use phrases like "for some reason"
> > > > > > > > > > > and "it does not seem", it makes me think that you haven't done any research.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > A simple Google search for fernco vs. glue (or however you like to phrase your
> > > > > > > > > > > search strings) may convince you that Fernco (or Fernco like fittings) are not
> > > > > > > > > > > just for temporary connections. Look at some of the plumbing forums. Pros
> > > > > > > > > > > use them all the time.
> > > > > > > > > > > > Like glued in PVC pipe. BUT, I will look at a PVC sanitary tee at Menards and figure out if the Fernco sanitary tee comes built so it just slips into the place of a cutout tee. Based on its published length.
> > > > > > > > > > > > Fernco extra long so it goes over the pipe ends, no making the pipe longer to use the Fernco. Because a glued in sanitary tee has to have the pipe about 4 inches longer because the ends of the sanitary tee go over the pipe by about 4 inches where its glued. I am definitely considering it. It would make everything real easy. Just glue the PVC flange to a short piece of 4" pipe. Drop it down the hole. Figure out how much needs to be cut off to make it the perfect length. Then screw the band clamps tight.
> > > > > > > > > > > First, I'm not sure why you feel that the Fernco S-Tee has to fit without lengthening
> > > > > > > > > > > the pipes once the caulked S-Tee is cut out. Assuming you get yourself to a point
> > > > > > > > > > > where you trust Fernco couplings, just use a straight coupler to extend the pipes
> > > > > > > > > > > on both sides of the S-Tee
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Maybe I'm missing something, but it sounds like you are almost willing to use a
> > > > > > > > > > > a Fernco S-Tee *only* if fits right in, otherwise you'll use glue. I don't see the logic
> > > > > > > > > > > in that thinking.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > re: "Just glue the PVC flange to a short piece of 4" pipe. Drop it down the hole."
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > I didn't see any mention of the Oatey compression fit flange that I linked to:
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > <https://www.amazon.com/Oatey-43539-Flange-Replacement-4-Inch/dp/B000DZHDQG>
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > By using that flange along with Fernco fittings, you wouldn't have to glue *anything*.
> > > > > > > > > > > If you don't already have glue available, you'd be buying glue and cleaner/primer for
> > > > > > > > > > > one fitting. (admittedly, I have never used (or seen used) that Oatey flange, but I do
> > > > > > > > > > > plan on looking into it a little further for my own edification) They make one style for
> > > > > > > > > > > PVC pipes and one for cast iron.
> > > > > > > > > > Again, thank you for the recommendation of the Fernco products. I think I am going to use the Fernco sanitary tee on this project. Menards sells it off the shelf. For cheaper than Amazon. So I can go to the store and look at it and measure it in person. Yeah. And I am coming around to believing it is a permanent solution. So Yeah!!!!!
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > As for my wanting, wishing I could do it with glued PVC instead. Probably because houses are always built new and renovated with glued PVC. Not Fernco. Do plumbers ever build a new house using only Fernco products for the plumbing? Or do plumbers use Fernco for repairs and difficult to access places when repairing? I am guessing the latter. New houses are always built with glued PVC. (Or in the old days with cast iron or even copper.) So glued PVC is better?????? That is how my reasoning is working. And glued PVC is cheaper too. But that is not a concern here. I bet even the president and vice presidents of Fernco have houses with normal glued DWV pipes. They do not have only Fernco products for all their plumbing.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I think the Fernco sanitary tee fits in without lengthening the pipe itself. Its a direct replacement. But I said that because if I have to glue to lengthen the pipe, then why not just glue a little more to put in a PVC glued sanitary tee. Sort of the if you have to do 80% of the work anyway, why not just do 100% of the work to get it perfect. That kind of logic. But I also realize the simplicity of putting the Fernco sanitary tee into place and then moving it to the perfect position and then screwing it tight. It has an advantage.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I already own PVC glue and primer. So using it to glue the PVC flange and pipe for the vertical stack is simple and easy. Just slop primer and glue onto the ends, shove the pipe into the flange laying on the floor, and Boom, you are done. Easy. So the Oatey flange is a No for me. I can understand it would be useful if you were working where you did not have access to the vertical pipe and had to work from the top down. Such as a slab floor or crawl space. But I have access to all the plumbing from the top and basement. So there is zero reason not to glue the pipe and flange together. And the Oatey also makes the inside of the pipe smaller so less flow. Bigger hole with glued PVC flange is an advantage for a toilet.
> > > > > > > > > Got it. That all makes sense. So, if I was in your situation, having the glue (which I do)
> > > > > > > > > and not wanting to use the Oatey flange (for all the right reasons) I'd probably do what
> > > > > > > > > I suggested earlier with my cut-cut Fernco-Fernco suggestion - unless the Fernco S-Tee
> > > > > > > > > fits perfectly. I'll be surprised if it does...just sounds too easy. ;-)
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I'd glue the PVC flange on, drop the vertical pipe into the hole and screw the flange down in
> > > > > > > > > the proper position. Then I'd glue short pieces of PVC pipe into the horizontal ports of a
> > > > > > > > > PVC S-Tee and glue it to the bottom of the pipe from the toilet. Two Fernco couplings later
> > > > > > > > > and it would be connected to the existing drain.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Like this, but with a new S-Tee and vertical pipe.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > https://i.imgur.com/88G8ve9.jpg
> > > > > > > > OH!!!!!!!!! Kind of sort of maybe possibly wish I had seen this post before I did what I did.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > BUT, I think it all turned out OK. I did the job!!!!!! Yeah for me!!!!!!!!!
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Here are some pictures of what I did. I used the Fernco sanitary T. 3" size since that is what my plumbing is. Its the black piece in the pictures of course. I had to put in a coupling since my math or cutting or something was not exactly right. Or I drilled the hole for the toilet stack in the not right spot. I did put it at 12" + a tiny bit from the wall. So its right. But I still had to put in a coupler and a short piece of pipe on the horizontal waste pipe.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > https://i.imgur.com/MqSNl53.jpg
> > > > > > > > https://i.imgur.com/sXIC15n.jpg
> > > > > > > > https://i.imgur.com/LvB4dxX.jpg
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Three links above are the Fernco sanitary T I installed on the horizontal run. First link is the total run. Second and third links are just the installed T and the new coupler I had to put in. On the horizontal waste run, the furthest right elbow is for the other toilet. Middle black stack is for the sinks in both bathrooms and the washing machine. And the furthest left stack is the new sanitary T one I put in.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Here are links for the fixed subfloor and the new toilet flange.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > https://i.imgur.com/8FbjkBh.jpg
> > > > > > > > https://i.imgur.com/sl4Pxqo.jpg
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > First link is just the patched subfloor. On the right of the patch, a little bit of the subfloor is still not perfect. But that tiny bit rotted wood is in the other joist bay. So I could not get to it for replacement. Its not bad so I am not worried about it. Vinyl flooring on top will be fine covering it. Second link is the toilet and sink area. I will have to cut the sink pipes lower and cut holes in the bottom of the vanity. And maybe cut a big hole in the back of the vanity to get it over the drain pipe elbow. That is after the vinyl floor is installed.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Now, considering your suggestion of putting the toilet stack in place and gluing a PVC sanitary T to it. And gluing in a couple short pieces to it for the horizontal run. Then using Fernco couplers to tie it all in. Maybe, possibly, probably, I would have done that if I could redo everything. Using the Fernco sanitary T as I did worked. But your idea might have been even better.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > For the subfloor patch it turned out to be 5/8" plywood. I had a scrap piece I used as a cutting board for shingles last November when I roofed a house. Used the Festool track saw to get it to the right size. Milwaukee reciprocating saw to cut the plumbing pipes out. Makita sliding saw in chop mode to cut the new 3" pipe. Electric 1/2" drill and a hole saw I already owned for the toilet flange. Bosch jigsaw got used somewhere too. Makita cordless drill was used for all the screw drilling and driving of course. Manual handsaw and screwdrivers of course. Socket wrench to tighten the Fernco band clamps. All in all, it was a bigger job than one would imagine.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > One more picture link. This is of the other toilet stack for the other full bathroom. The one I worked on is a half bath. The hole cut for the toilet flange is bad, not round. And it is showing a little rot. So when I take out that toilet for a new vinyl floor, I will also replace some subfloor. And likely glue in a new long turn 90 degree elbow on the bottom for the horizontal run in the basement. And drill a hole in the new subfloor and glue in a piece of pipe to the toilet flange. And glue the stack to the elbow. All glued PVC.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > https://i.imgur.com/jHVgO4T.jpg
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > DerbyDad03, notice that this stack has a Fernco coupler. It was put in before 2010 when we acquired the house. Prior owner maybe put a new toilet stack in and the plumber figured the easiest way to get a new stack was to use the Fernco coupler.
> > > > > > > Good job! Looks great. Plumbing can be a pain, but for the most part
> > > > > > > it’s not all that hard - when you can get to what you need to get to.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I’ve done similar jobs, but had to go in through a hole in the ceiling
> > > > > > > below. That’s the worst for me because I wasn’t born with the drywall
> > > > > > > mudding gene. It takes me forever and I’m rarely satisfied with the
> > > > > > > results.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Good luck with the floor and fixtures. Paint first. ;-)
> > > > > > I love love love electrical work. Tolerate but do not like plumbing work. As for going through a hole, I recently added some lights into the garage. Accessed by an access panel and 8 foot step ladder. Crawled around on my hands and knees and belly on pieces of wood and plywood I brought up to span the trusses. Took several days and many hours. But I still liked that better than this plumbing work. I don't mind painting. Maybe because a freshly painted room always looks nice. Confirmation that you did something good.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I'm reasonably happy with the finished job. Its right. But knowing what I know now, after doing it my way, I would do it your way the next time. As you described above of putting PVC sanitary T and stack and flange. Then use the rubber Fernco couplers to tie it into the horizontal run. Not that there will be a next time. Next time may be the other bathroom in the house. The one with the toilet still working. I probably cannot do a plumbing fix in there until we are ready to put in the vinyl flooring. Maybe do the plumbing fix the night before and the day the flooring installer is there. Vinyl flooring install will be hired out.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Yes, painting is next job to be done. Before flooring is installed. And install new ceiling fans. One worry I have is getting the new cabinets in. The water supply lines come up through the floor. So have to take the valves off, figure out where to drill holes in the floor of the cabinet, then drop it over the water pipes. All while maneuvering the cabinet over the drain pipes coming out of the wall. I think bathroom vanities come with an open back or a big opening in the back. So no cutting a hole by me. But I will look at bathroom vanities next time I am at the store.
> > > > > Just because the pipes come up through the floor now doesn't mean that they have to
> > > > > stay there.
> > > > >
> > > > > Get some SharkBite fittings and few short lengths of PEX. Cut the copper pipes down in
> > > > > the basement and route the PEX inside the wall where the sink drain is. Bring the PEX
> > > > > into the back of the vanity, leaving a nice open bottom for "stuff". Pipes in the middle
> > > > > of a vanity bottom are just a PITA. Make your life even easier and cut out some of the
> > > > > drywall for better access. Hide it with the vanity.
> > > > >
> > > > > An example configuration...
> > > > >
> > > > > https://i.imgur.com/ym4ijXE.jpg
> > > > >
> > > > > If you hate plumbing, and you've never used SharkBites, ignore the cost and get it done in
> > > > > a matter of minutes. Easy transition from copper to PEX. No solder, no glue, minimal layout.
> > > > > Just push to fit. You don't even have to really line anything up, because once installed, they
> > > > > rotate on the pipe, so just point them in the direction you need. They are easier than Fernco
> > > > > couplings and just as permanent. ;-)
> > > > >
> > > > > https://www.sharkbite.com/us/en/brass-push-to-connect/fittings
> > > > You're bad, really really bad. Now you are making me contemplate things. I will have to get over to the house and look at the basement again. See if I can figure out where the water supply lines are located. And if I can figure out where the stud bays for the walls are located. So I would even know where to drill holes up from the basement.
> > > >
> > > > As I maybe mentioned before, or not, the basement ceiling is covered in plywood. Only open spots are the few areas where some of the plumbing was run up to the bathrooms. Some of the drain lines. And some of the water lines. A lot of the water and drain lines are buried in the walls and or within the covered up joist bays.
> > > >
> > > > For instance, the picture of the bathroom sink area with the drain line coming out of the wall. The one where you deleted out my water pipes coming up through the floor and added in red and blue Sharkbite lines coming out of the wall. That drain ties into a stack within the wall. So I do not know where that drain really is and do not know where the wall cavity is. That sink drain does not come out directly into the basement.
> > > > So I do not know where to drill up through the floor and into the stud bay. And I don't think I know where the hot and cold water lines are either. Same with the other bathroom. Its drain out of the wall ties into the vertical stack within the walls in between the bathrooms. And I do not know where the water lines for the other bathroom originate from either. All the water supply lines just come up through the floor in both bathrooms.
> > > >
> > > > I think to find all of the hidden water and drain lines would mean tearing off a lot of the basement ceiling plywood. I guess there is a downside to having your basement ceiling covered in plywood.
> > > >
> > > > But your Sharkbite idea may be used by me for fixing the water line to the other bathroom's toilet. It has a flexible hose to the toilet that goes through the floor, and then ties into a threaded pipe connector, threads on both ends, which is connected to another flexible hose, and finally to a copper pipe with a soldered on threaded end. I am going to fix that mess. Had thought about soldering copper. But your Sharkbite will be a lot easier. I have access to that mess in the basement because its in joist bays where the plywood is cutout already.
> > > >
> > > > https://i.imgur.com/MqSNl53.jpg
> > > > In a couple of the pictures I posted before it shows three vertical drains in the horizontal run. See link above. Farthest left sanitary T is the new black rubber Fernco I just installed. Second sanitary T has the black ABS plumbing pipe on top. Its the vent pipe through the roof. The black pipe coming out the left side gets the tub in the other bathroom. The black pipe coming out the right gets the two sinks. I think. The sink drain pipes are in the walls above. Or maybe hidden in the joists under the plywood. Third white elbow at the forefront is for the toilet in the other bathroom.
> > > >
> > > > Some water lines are visible in the basement. Water to the tub in the other bathroom for example. Toilet supply line for the half bath I worked on. I'm going to fix it as I described above. But not sure if I can find the sink water lines.
> > > >
> > > > I need to get over there again and look at things again.
> > > Ok, it just looked like the exposed pipe to left of the
> > > work you just did went right up to where sink pipes
> > > come up out of the floor. My error.
> > >
> > > Good luck with the rest of the job.
> > I think those pipes are for the washing machine. The two bathrooms and washing machine are arranged all touching each other. To share drain pipes and water of course. The washing machine and half bath (I worked on) are along the outside of the house. Washing machine is east. Half bath is west. The full bath is inside of both of those rooms to the north. Its a big square. But inside of the other two rooms. It does not touch the outside wall.
> >
> > I will get back over to the house sometime soon and reassess everything.. Figure out if it is possible to put the water pipes in the wall or not. But right now I think I only know where the hot and cold water pipes for the shower and washing machine are located. Bathroom pipes are hidden up in the joists, covered by plywood. But I can get to both toilet water pipes. They are in already cutout exposed areas. And I will use the Sharkbite connectors to fix one of the toilet water pipes. My Ridgid compact pipe cutter, a straight coupler, 12" of copper pipe, an elbow coupler, 12" of copper pipe, and a shutoff valve on top.
> >
> > Funny thing. I did use Sharkbite connectors about 15 years ago. I installed a toilet and sink in my basement of the prior house. All pipes were easily seen and exposed in the joists. I put a Sharkbite T into the hot and cold master shower pipes and ran the water over to the wall. I used CPVC for my new water lines. Old pipe in house was copper. The Sharkbites I used were the yellow/white CPVC color, and plastic of course. They were not the brass pretty solid ones shown in the link you posted. The Sharkbites then saved me from having to solder copper pipes. I was happy about that. Gluing CPVC is so much easier. The Sharkbites I installed 15 years ago never ever gave me any problems. So I know they do work. But I had just forgotten they were an option to fix my current plumbing problems.
> >
> > https://www.menards.com/main/plumbing/pipe-fittings/push-to-connect-fittings/watts-reg-aqualock-trade-push-to-connect-lead-free-brass-coupling/0472000/p-1444446192233-c-12709.htm?tid=-1209553812764759867&ipos=1
> >
> > https://www.menards.com/main/plumbing/pipe-fittings/push-to-connect-fittings/watts-reg-aqualock-trade-push-to-connect-lead-free-brass-elbow/0472016/p-1444446179359-c-12709.htm?tid=-1209553812764759867&ipos=5
> >
> > Above are what I will use to fix my toilet water supply line. And 1/2" copper pipe I already own. And a shutoff valve I already bought.
> re: "The Sharkbites I used were the yellow/white CPVC color, and plastic of course."
>
> You may have used push-to-connect fittings, but I don't think that you used SharkBites.
>
> I'm anal that way and I don't apologize.