So a few weeks ago, in February, I mentioned and posted pictures of the
progress of the kitchen.

We are moving right along and I'm ready to be finished. But we still
have to paint the old cabinets that we are keeping and paint the new 5
cabinets that we are adding. We will lose 2 builder drawers and an 8'x
36",24" cabinet. We will gain 18 drawers that are a minimum of 22" wide.

Next steps are to paint build drawer fronts and cabinet doors for both
new and old cabinets.
And then the counter tops approximately 77 sq feet to yield about 30
linear feet of counter space. And a new sink and disposal.

This is where the refrigerator was and is now where 6 of the new drawers
will be located. More room to the right of the range for my wife, the
whole purpose of doing this renovation.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb11211/52793385678/in/datetaken/

Where the refrigerator is not along with relocated cabinets and the new
large upper cabinet.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb11211/52793385683/in/datetaken/

The new pony wall cabinets, 2 similar in size with same sized drawers in
each.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb11211/52793333170/in/datetaken/

And finally the relocated electrical wall outlet that the cabinets now hide.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb11211/52792939906/in/datetaken/

On Tuesday, April 4, 2023 at 11:04:56 AM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
> So a few weeks ago, in February, I mentioned and posted pictures of the
> progress of the kitchen.
>
> We are moving right along and I'm ready to be finished. But we still
> have to paint the old cabinets that we are keeping and paint the new 5
> cabinets that we are adding. We will lose 2 builder drawers and an 8'x
> 36",24" cabinet. We will gain 18 drawers that are a minimum of 22" wide.
>
> Next steps are to paint build drawer fronts and cabinet doors for both
> new and old cabinets.
> And then the counter tops approximately 77 sq feet to yield about 30
> linear feet of counter space. And a new sink and disposal.
>
> This is where the refrigerator was and is now where 6 of the new drawers
> will be located. More room to the right of the range for my wife, the
> whole purpose of doing this renovation.
>
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb11211/52793385678/in/datetaken/
>
> Where the refrigerator is not along with relocated cabinets and the new
> large upper cabinet.
>
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb11211/52793385683/in/datetaken/
>
> The new pony wall cabinets, 2 similar in size with same sized drawers in
> each.
>
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb11211/52793333170/in/datetaken/
>
> And finally the relocated electrical wall outlet that the cabinets now hide.
>
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb11211/52792939906/in/datetaken/

It all looks really good and I'm sure it will be very enjoyable once complete.
Lots of countertop next to the range is always nice.

I just (like 10 minutes ago) finished moving my 5 receptacles and 2 switches
to make room for the new countertop that SWMBO is still deciding on. I've
already made my choice, so it's really up to her at this point. As long as she
doesn't pick something that I really dislike, I'll be fine. The one I chose ticks
all of her boxes - as in the colors in the stone (not just for now but also if we
want to repaint in the future), it picks up a little of the color from the new floor,
it's got a matte finish vs. polished, etc. Everything she wants, plus the price
point is right where we want to be. Of course, she doesn't "want to settle" so
she's still looking. What can I say?

We're shopping for a drywall contractor to "unstiple" the ceiling. I found a guy
who was recommended by a neighbor, but pinning him down for an estimate
took forever and now I can't get him to commit to a time to do the job. I just
got a new recommendation today from coworker who flips houses, so I'm
going to give him a call. I haven't signed anything with the other guy and I'm
strongly considering cutting him loose. I hate chasing people down.

Regarding your relocated receptacle. You said that the cabinets hide the old
one. Assuming you turned the old receptacle box into a junction box and
extended the wires, I hope you didn't hide that box behind the new cabinets..
That's a code violation. At a minimum, you should cut a hole in the back of
the cabinet so that it's accessible.

On 4/4/2023 11:07 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> On Tuesday, April 4, 2023 at 11:04:56 AM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
>> So a few weeks ago, in February, I mentioned and posted pictures of the
>> progress of the kitchen.
>>
>> We are moving right along and I'm ready to be finished. But we still
>> have to paint the old cabinets that we are keeping and paint the new 5
>> cabinets that we are adding. We will lose 2 builder drawers and an 8'x
>> 36",24" cabinet. We will gain 18 drawers that are a minimum of 22" wide.
>>
>> Next steps are to paint build drawer fronts and cabinet doors for both
>> new and old cabinets.
>> And then the counter tops approximately 77 sq feet to yield about 30
>> linear feet of counter space. And a new sink and disposal.
>>
>> This is where the refrigerator was and is now where 6 of the new drawers
>> will be located. More room to the right of the range for my wife, the
>> whole purpose of doing this renovation.
>>
>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb11211/52793385678/in/datetaken/
>>
>> Where the refrigerator is not along with relocated cabinets and the new
>> large upper cabinet.
>>
>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb11211/52793385683/in/datetaken/
>>
>> The new pony wall cabinets, 2 similar in size with same sized drawers in
>> each.
>>
>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb11211/52793333170/in/datetaken/
>>
>> And finally the relocated electrical wall outlet that the cabinets now hide.
>>
>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb11211/52792939906/in/datetaken/
>
> It all looks really good and I'm sure it will be very enjoyable once complete.
> Lots of countertop next to the range is always nice.

Thank you.
>
> I just (like 10 minutes ago) finished moving my 5 receptacles and 2 switches
> to make room for the new countertop that SWMBO is still deciding on. I've
> already made my choice, so it's really up to her at this point. As long as she
> doesn't pick something that I really dislike, I'll be fine. The one I chose ticks
> all of her boxes - as in the colors in the stone (not just for now but also if we
> want to repaint in the future), it picks up a little of the color from the new floor,
> it's got a matte finish vs. polished, etc. Everything she wants, plus the price
> point is right where we want to be. Of course, she doesn't "want to settle" so
> she's still looking. What can I say?

LOL THAT still continues. We will be going out again to look "again"
and to have several providers come out for measurements.

>
> We're shopping for a drywall contractor to "unstiple" the ceiling. I found a guy
> who was recommended by a neighbor, but pinning him down for an estimate
> took forever and now I can't get him to commit to a time to do the job. I just
> got a new recommendation today from coworker who flips houses, so I'm
> going to give him a call. I haven't signed anything with the other guy and I'm
> strongly considering cutting him loose. I hate chasing people down.

Yeah, I would look for some one else. He is likely not going to be
dependable.

>
> Regarding your relocated receptacle. You said that the cabinets hide the old
> one. Assuming you turned the old receptacle box into a junction box and
> extended the wires, I hope you didn't hide that box behind the new cabinets.
> That's a code violation. At a minimum, you should cut a hole in the back of
> the cabinet so that it's accessible.

Yes, I turned the old wall outlet box into a junction box and added a
metal cover with a protected "L" coming out of it to guide the Romex out
of the box. From there to the new outlet between the 2 cabinets. It
is all accessible if you remove the bottom drawer.

Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> writes:
>On 4/4/2023 11:07 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:

>>
>> Regarding your relocated receptacle. You said that the cabinets hide the old
>> one. Assuming you turned the old receptacle box into a junction box and
>> extended the wires, I hope you didn't hide that box behind the new cabinets.
>> That's a code violation. At a minimum, you should cut a hole in the back of
>> the cabinet so that it's accessible.
>
>Yes, I turned the old wall outlet box into a junction box and added a
>metal cover with a protected "L" coming out of it to guide the Romex out
>of the box. From there to the new outlet between the 2 cabinets. It
>is all accessible if you remove the bottom drawer.

FWIW, "accessible" means that you must not need to remove "obstacles"
for access, per the NEC.

On 4/4/2023 11:42 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> writes:
>> On 4/4/2023 11:07 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>
>>>
>>> Regarding your relocated receptacle. You said that the cabinets hide the old
>>> one. Assuming you turned the old receptacle box into a junction box and
>>> extended the wires, I hope you didn't hide that box behind the new cabinets.
>>> That's a code violation. At a minimum, you should cut a hole in the back of
>>> the cabinet so that it's accessible.
>>
>> Yes, I turned the old wall outlet box into a junction box and added a
>> metal cover with a protected "L" coming out of it to guide the Romex out
>> of the box. From there to the new outlet between the 2 cabinets. It
>> is all accessible if you remove the bottom drawer.
>
> FWIW, "accessible" means that you must not need to remove "obstacles"
> for access, per the NEC.

I'll have to live with that. ;~( I guess it could be argued that the
8' desk that is in front of 2 outlets or the 8' cabinet, in front of an
outlet would not be allowed. Or our bed. ;~)

Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> writes:
>On 4/4/2023 11:42 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>> Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> writes:
>>> On 4/4/2023 11:07 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>>
>>>>
>>>> Regarding your relocated receptacle. You said that the cabinets hide the old
>>>> one. Assuming you turned the old receptacle box into a junction box and
>>>> extended the wires, I hope you didn't hide that box behind the new cabinets.
>>>> That's a code violation. At a minimum, you should cut a hole in the back of
>>>> the cabinet so that it's accessible.
>>>
>>> Yes, I turned the old wall outlet box into a junction box and added a
>>> metal cover with a protected "L" coming out of it to guide the Romex out
>>> of the box. From there to the new outlet between the 2 cabinets. It
>>> is all accessible if you remove the bottom drawer.
>>
>> FWIW, "accessible" means that you must not need to remove "obstacles"
>> for access, per the NEC.
>
>
>I'll have to live with that. ;~( I guess it could be argued that the
>8' desk that is in front of 2 outlets or the 8' cabinet, in front of an
>outlet would not be allowed. Or our bed. ;~)

The accessibility rule applies to junction boxes (which must
not be hidden), not receptacles.

On 4/4/2023 2:05 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> writes:
>> On 4/4/2023 11:42 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>>> Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> writes:
>>>> On 4/4/2023 11:07 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Regarding your relocated receptacle. You said that the cabinets hide the old
>>>>> one. Assuming you turned the old receptacle box into a junction box and
>>>>> extended the wires, I hope you didn't hide that box behind the new cabinets.
>>>>> That's a code violation. At a minimum, you should cut a hole in the back of
>>>>> the cabinet so that it's accessible.
>>>>
>>>> Yes, I turned the old wall outlet box into a junction box and added a
>>>> metal cover with a protected "L" coming out of it to guide the Romex out
>>>> of the box. From there to the new outlet between the 2 cabinets. It
>>>> is all accessible if you remove the bottom drawer.
>>>
>>> FWIW, "accessible" means that you must not need to remove "obstacles"
>>> for access, per the NEC.
>>
>>
>> I'll have to live with that. ;~( I guess it could be argued that the
>> 8' desk that is in front of 2 outlets or the 8' cabinet, in front of an
>> outlet would not be allowed. Or our bed. ;~)
>
> The accessibility rule applies to junction boxes (which must
> not be hidden), not receptacles.

Ohhhhh. So technically the box is simply an in and out to house the
wire nuts extending the cable going to the new location. No other
cables come in or out. But yeah, there is probably some rule against
that too.

On Tuesday, April 4, 2023 at 2:42:46 PM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
> On 4/4/2023 11:42 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> > Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> writes:
> >> On 4/4/2023 11:07 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> >
> >>>
> >>> Regarding your relocated receptacle. You said that the cabinets hide the old
> >>> one. Assuming you turned the old receptacle box into a junction box and
> >>> extended the wires, I hope you didn't hide that box behind the new cabinets.
> >>> That's a code violation. At a minimum, you should cut a hole in the back of
> >>> the cabinet so that it's accessible.
> >>
> >> Yes, I turned the old wall outlet box into a junction box and added a
> >> metal cover with a protected "L" coming out of it to guide the Romex out
> >> of the box. From there to the new outlet between the 2 cabinets. It
> >> is all accessible if you remove the bottom drawer.
> >
> > FWIW, "accessible" means that you must not need to remove "obstacles"
> > for access, per the NEC.
> I'll have to live with that. ;~( I guess it could be argued that the
> 8' desk that is in front of 2 outlets or the 8' cabinet, in front of an
> outlet would not be allowed. Or our bed. ;~)

Be careful when you use the word "outlet." That is (sort of) not the same as a
"receptacle". The following was stolen without permission from:

https://www.electricallicenserenewal.com/Electrical-Continuing-Education-Courses/NEC-Content.php?sectionID=209.0

*** Begin Stolen Text ***

Code Change Summary: The definition of a “Receptacle” has changed.

A receptacle is always an outlet but an outlet is not only a receptacle. Ceiling fans, luminaires
and other hard wired connections are all connected to outlets. An outlet is defined as “A point
on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment”.

A receptacle however has always been something that an attachment plug is connected to.
With the introduction of new products comes the need to revise certain code definitions.

Now, the 2017 NEC® definition of a receptacle includes “devices for the direct connection of
electrical utilization equipment designed to mate with the corresponding contact device”. This
makes it clear that other products, like in the image, are considered to be receptacles even if
a plug cap is not used.

Below is a preview of Article 100. See the actual NEC® text at NFPA.ORG for the complete
code section. Once there, click on their link to free access to the 2017 NEC® edition of NFPA 70.

2014 Code Language:

Receptacle. A receptacle is a contact device installed at the outlet for the connection of an
attachment plug. A single receptacle is a single contact device with no other contact device
on the same yoke. A multiple receptacle is two or more contact devices on the same yoke.

2017 Code Language:

Receptacle. A contact device installed at the outlet for the connection of an attachment
plug, or for the direct connection of electrical utilization equipment designed to mate
with the corresponding contact device. A single receptacle is a single contact device
with no other contact device on the same yoke. A multiple receptacle is two or more
contact devices on the same yoke. (CMP-18)

***End Stolen Text***

On Tuesday, April 4, 2023 at 12:42:59 PM UTC-4, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> writes:
> >On 4/4/2023 11:07 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>
> >>
> >> Regarding your relocated receptacle. You said that the cabinets hide the old
> >> one. Assuming you turned the old receptacle box into a junction box and
> >> extended the wires, I hope you didn't hide that box behind the new cabinets.
> >> That's a code violation. At a minimum, you should cut a hole in the back of
> >> the cabinet so that it's accessible.
> >
> >Yes, I turned the old wall outlet box into a junction box and added a
> >metal cover with a protected "L" coming out of it to guide the Romex out
> >of the box. From there to the new outlet between the 2 cabinets. It
> >is all accessible if you remove the bottom drawer.
> FWIW, "accessible" means that you must not need to remove "obstacles"
> for access, per the NEC.

FWIW, only one type of Accessible (Readily) involves the word "obstacle",
per the NEC.

Most junction boxes (like in a home) don't have to be Readily Accessible.
"Accessible (as applied to wiring methods)" is what we're talking about
here.

2020 Code Language:

Article 100.

Accessible (as applied to equipment). Capable of being reached for operation,
renewal, and inspection.

Accessible (as applied to wiring methods). Capable of being removed or
exposed without damaging the building structure or finish or not permanently
closed in by the structure or finish of the building.

Accessible, Readily (Readily Accessible). Capable of being reached quickly
for operation, renewal, or inspections without requiring those to whom ready
access is requisite to take actions such as to use tools (other than keys), to
climb over or under, to remove obstacles, or to resort to portable ladders,
and so forth.

Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> writes:
>On 4/4/2023 2:05 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>> Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> writes:
>>> On 4/4/2023 11:42 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>>>> Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> writes:
>>>>> On 4/4/2023 11:07 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Regarding your relocated receptacle. You said that the cabinets hide the old
>>>>>> one. Assuming you turned the old receptacle box into a junction box and
>>>>>> extended the wires, I hope you didn't hide that box behind the new cabinets.
>>>>>> That's a code violation. At a minimum, you should cut a hole in the back of
>>>>>> the cabinet so that it's accessible.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, I turned the old wall outlet box into a junction box and added a
>>>>> metal cover with a protected "L" coming out of it to guide the Romex out
>>>>> of the box. From there to the new outlet between the 2 cabinets. It
>>>>> is all accessible if you remove the bottom drawer.
>>>>
>>>> FWIW, "accessible" means that you must not need to remove "obstacles"
>>>> for access, per the NEC.
>>>
>>>
>>> I'll have to live with that. ;~( I guess it could be argued that the
>>> 8' desk that is in front of 2 outlets or the 8' cabinet, in front of an
>>> outlet would not be allowed. Or our bed. ;~)
>>
>> The accessibility rule applies to junction boxes (which must
>> not be hidden), not receptacles.
>
>Ohhhhh. So technically the box is simply an in and out to house the
>wire nuts extending the cable going to the new location.

That's the definition of a j-box :-).

Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> writes:
>On 4/4/2023 2:05 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>> Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> writes:
>>> On 4/4/2023 11:42 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>>>> Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> writes:
>>>>> On 4/4/2023 11:07 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Regarding your relocated receptacle. You said that the cabinets hide the old
>>>>>> one. Assuming you turned the old receptacle box into a junction box and
>>>>>> extended the wires, I hope you didn't hide that box behind the new cabinets.
>>>>>> That's a code violation. At a minimum, you should cut a hole in the back of
>>>>>> the cabinet so that it's accessible.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, I turned the old wall outlet box into a junction box and added a
>>>>> metal cover with a protected "L" coming out of it to guide the Romex out
>>>>> of the box. From there to the new outlet between the 2 cabinets. It
>>>>> is all accessible if you remove the bottom drawer.
>>>>
>>>> FWIW, "accessible" means that you must not need to remove "obstacles"
>>>> for access, per the NEC.
>>>
>>>
>>> I'll have to live with that. ;~( I guess it could be argued that the
>>> 8' desk that is in front of 2 outlets or the 8' cabinet, in front of an
>>> outlet would not be allowed. Or our bed. ;~)
>>
>> The accessibility rule applies to junction boxes (which must
>> not be hidden), not receptacles.
>
>Ohhhhh. So technically the box is simply an in and out to house the
>wire nuts extending the cable going to the new location. No other
>cables come in or out. But yeah, there is probably some rule against
>that too.

The reason the code forbids that is that the next owner or the electrician
trying to diagnose an issue down-stream has no idea that your j-box is there,
and then there is a potential fire hazard at any j-box depending on the
method(s) used to make the connections.

On Tuesday, April 4, 2023 at 6:58:52 PM UTC-4, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> writes:
> >On 4/4/2023 2:05 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> >> Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> writes:
> >>> On 4/4/2023 11:42 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> >>>> Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> writes:
> >>>>> On 4/4/2023 11:07 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Regarding your relocated receptacle. You said that the cabinets hide the old
> >>>>>> one. Assuming you turned the old receptacle box into a junction box and
> >>>>>> extended the wires, I hope you didn't hide that box behind the new cabinets.
> >>>>>> That's a code violation. At a minimum, you should cut a hole in the back of
> >>>>>> the cabinet so that it's accessible.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Yes, I turned the old wall outlet box into a junction box and added a
> >>>>> metal cover with a protected "L" coming out of it to guide the Romex out
> >>>>> of the box. From there to the new outlet between the 2 cabinets. It
> >>>>> is all accessible if you remove the bottom drawer.
> >>>>
> >>>> FWIW, "accessible" means that you must not need to remove "obstacles"
> >>>> for access, per the NEC.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> I'll have to live with that. ;~( I guess it could be argued that the
> >>> 8' desk that is in front of 2 outlets or the 8' cabinet, in front of an
> >>> outlet would not be allowed. Or our bed. ;~)
> >>
> >> The accessibility rule applies to junction boxes (which must
> >> not be hidden), not receptacles.
> >
> >Ohhhhh. So technically the box is simply an in and out to house the
> >wire nuts extending the cable going to the new location. No other
> >cables come in or out. But yeah, there is probably some rule against
> >that too.
> The reason the code forbids that is that the next owner or the electrician
> trying to diagnose an issue down-stream has no idea that your j-box is there,
> and then there is a potential fire hazard at any j-box depending on the
> method(s) used to make the connections.

Forbids *what*?

Are you saying the junction box behind Leon's drawer would be considered "hidden" per
the NEC? If so, please provide the relevant article.

On Tuesday, April 4, 2023 at 5:43:03 PM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
> On 4/4/2023 2:05 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> > Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> writes:
> >> On 4/4/2023 11:42 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> >>> Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> writes:
> >>>> On 4/4/2023 11:07 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Regarding your relocated receptacle. You said that the cabinets hide the old
> >>>>> one. Assuming you turned the old receptacle box into a junction box and
> >>>>> extended the wires, I hope you didn't hide that box behind the new cabinets.
> >>>>> That's a code violation. At a minimum, you should cut a hole in the back of
> >>>>> the cabinet so that it's accessible.
> >>>>
> >>>> Yes, I turned the old wall outlet box into a junction box and added a
> >>>> metal cover with a protected "L" coming out of it to guide the Romex out
> >>>> of the box. From there to the new outlet between the 2 cabinets. It
> >>>> is all accessible if you remove the bottom drawer.
> >>>
> >>> FWIW, "accessible" means that you must not need to remove "obstacles"
> >>> for access, per the NEC.
> >>
> >>
> >> I'll have to live with that. ;~( I guess it could be argued that the
> >> 8' desk that is in front of 2 outlets or the 8' cabinet, in front of an
> >> outlet would not be allowed. Or our bed. ;~)
> >
> > The accessibility rule applies to junction boxes (which must
> > not be hidden), not receptacles.
> Ohhhhh. So technically the box is simply an in and out to house the
> wire nuts extending the cable going to the new location. No other
> cables come in or out. But yeah, there is probably some rule against
> that too.

That's a junction box. Your location is perfectly fine.

"Accessible (as applied to wiring methods). Capable of being removed or
exposed without damaging the building structure or finish or not permanently
closed in by the structure or finish of the building."

Drawers, cabinet doors, free standing bookcases, beds, etc. None of those are
"structure" or "finish". Now, the solid back of a kitchen cabinet, a built-in bookcase,
a Murphy bed...those might be an issue, even though they are not technically
"structure" they do fit many definitions of "finishes".

On Tuesday, April 4, 2023 at 11:04:56 AM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
> So a few weeks ago, in February, I mentioned and posted pictures of the
> progress of the kitchen.
>
> We are moving right along and I'm ready to be finished. But we still
> have to paint the old cabinets that we are keeping and paint the new 5
> cabinets that we are adding. We will lose 2 builder drawers and an 8'x
> 36",24" cabinet. We will gain 18 drawers that are a minimum of 22" wide.
>
> Next steps are to paint build drawer fronts and cabinet doors for both
> new and old cabinets.
> And then the counter tops approximately 77 sq feet to yield about 30
> linear feet of counter space. And a new sink and disposal.
>
> This is where the refrigerator was and is now where 6 of the new drawers
> will be located. More room to the right of the range for my wife, the
> whole purpose of doing this renovation.
>
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb11211/52793385678/in/datetaken/
>
> Where the refrigerator is not along with relocated cabinets and the new
> large upper cabinet.
>
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb11211/52793385683/in/datetaken/
>
> The new pony wall cabinets, 2 similar in size with same sized drawers in
> each.
>
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb11211/52793333170/in/datetaken/
>
> And finally the relocated electrical wall outlet that the cabinets now hide.
>
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb11211/52792939906/in/datetaken/

One other thing worth mentioning...

I don't how the box for that relocated receptacle is mounted, but the second
paragraph below applies to your situation.

"314.20 Flush-Mounted Installations
Installations within or behind a surface of concrete, tile, gypsum, plaster, or
other noncombustible material, including boxes employing a flush type cover
or faceplate, shall be made so that the front edge of the box, plaster ring,
extension ring, or listed extender will not be set back of the finished surface
more than 6 mm (1/4 in.).

Installations within a surface of wood or other combustible surface material,
boxes, plaster rings, extension rings, or listed extenders shall extend to the
finished surface or project therefrom."

I just did a shiplap wall and had to use extenders on all the boxes to bring the
boxes flush. Luckily I had just enough wire to meet the 3" required by 300.14.

BTW...AFAIK, nothing prohibits stacking extenders, which often helps if you
need more capacity in a box. e.g. this is technically compliant, although
some may say that it violates 110.12. ;-) (Look it up)

https://i.imgur.com/6t7asLR.jpg

On 4/4/2023 5:56 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> writes:
>> On 4/4/2023 2:05 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>>> Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> writes:
>>>> On 4/4/2023 11:42 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>>>>> Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> writes:
>>>>>> On 4/4/2023 11:07 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Regarding your relocated receptacle. You said that the cabinets hide the old
>>>>>>> one. Assuming you turned the old receptacle box into a junction box and
>>>>>>> extended the wires, I hope you didn't hide that box behind the new cabinets.
>>>>>>> That's a code violation. At a minimum, you should cut a hole in the back of
>>>>>>> the cabinet so that it's accessible.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, I turned the old wall outlet box into a junction box and added a
>>>>>> metal cover with a protected "L" coming out of it to guide the Romex out
>>>>>> of the box. From there to the new outlet between the 2 cabinets. It
>>>>>> is all accessible if you remove the bottom drawer.
>>>>>
>>>>> FWIW, "accessible" means that you must not need to remove "obstacles"
>>>>> for access, per the NEC.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I'll have to live with that. ;~( I guess it could be argued that the
>>>> 8' desk that is in front of 2 outlets or the 8' cabinet, in front of an
>>>> outlet would not be allowed. Or our bed. ;~)
>>>
>>> The accessibility rule applies to junction boxes (which must
>>> not be hidden), not receptacles.
>>
>> Ohhhhh. So technically the box is simply an in and out to house the
>> wire nuts extending the cable going to the new location.
>
> That's the definition of a j-box :-).

I know. LOL I was able to go stick my head and torso through the
drawer opening to get to the box. :~) Large drawers.

On 4/4/2023 6:10 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> On Tuesday, April 4, 2023 at 6:58:52 PM UTC-4, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>> Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> writes:
>>> On 4/4/2023 2:05 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>>>> Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> writes:
>>>>> On 4/4/2023 11:42 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>>>>>> Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> writes:
>>>>>>> On 4/4/2023 11:07 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Regarding your relocated receptacle. You said that the cabinets hide the old
>>>>>>>> one. Assuming you turned the old receptacle box into a junction box and
>>>>>>>> extended the wires, I hope you didn't hide that box behind the new cabinets.
>>>>>>>> That's a code violation. At a minimum, you should cut a hole in the back of
>>>>>>>> the cabinet so that it's accessible.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yes, I turned the old wall outlet box into a junction box and added a
>>>>>>> metal cover with a protected "L" coming out of it to guide the Romex out
>>>>>>> of the box. From there to the new outlet between the 2 cabinets. It
>>>>>>> is all accessible if you remove the bottom drawer.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> FWIW, "accessible" means that you must not need to remove "obstacles"
>>>>>> for access, per the NEC.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I'll have to live with that. ;~( I guess it could be argued that the
>>>>> 8' desk that is in front of 2 outlets or the 8' cabinet, in front of an
>>>>> outlet would not be allowed. Or our bed. ;~)
>>>>
>>>> The accessibility rule applies to junction boxes (which must
>>>> not be hidden), not receptacles.
>>>
>>> Ohhhhh. So technically the box is simply an in and out to house the
>>> wire nuts extending the cable going to the new location. No other
>>> cables come in or out. But yeah, there is probably some rule against
>>> that too.
>> The reason the code forbids that is that the next owner or the electrician
>> trying to diagnose an issue down-stream has no idea that your j-box is there,
>> and then there is a potential fire hazard at any j-box depending on the
>> method(s) used to make the connections.
>
> Forbids *what*?
>
> Are you saying the junction box behind Leon's drawer would be considered "hidden" per
> the NEC? If so, please provide the relevant article.

FWIW as I understand it a home owner can do most anything to his home
code or no code. It is the licensed electrician that has to follow the
rules.

And this connection that I am extending terminated at that wall plug.
It was a simple connection, there were only the single ground, neutral,
and hot wires coming in. I understand the concerns but if my
connection fails it will not affect any of the other outlets on the circuit.

Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> writes:
>On 4/4/2023 6:10 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:

>>
>> Are you saying the junction box behind Leon's drawer would be considered "hidden" per
>> the NEC? If so, please provide the relevant article.
>
>
>FWIW as I understand it a home owner can do most anything to his home
>code or no code. It is the licensed electrician that has to follow the
>rules.

I think that depends on the county you live in. And possibly
your insurance company (although I believe that to be urban legend).

Some locales don't allow unlicensed electrical work (I've personally
seen horrible homeowner work on several occasions, including using
AWG18 speaker wire on a 20a circuit).

>
>And this connection that I am extending terminated at that wall plug.
>It was a simple connection, there were only the single ground, neutral,
>and hot wires coming in. I understand the concerns but if my
>connection fails it will not affect any of the other outlets on the circuit.

There may be failure modes that could cause problems, a loose neutral
for instance.

On Sat, 8 Apr 2023 10:49:43 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote:

>On 4/4/2023 6:10 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>> On Tuesday, April 4, 2023 at 6:58:52?PM UTC-4, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>>> Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> writes:
>>>> On 4/4/2023 2:05 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>>>>> Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> writes:
>>>>>> On 4/4/2023 11:42 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>>>>>>> Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> writes:
>>>>>>>> On 4/4/2023 11:07 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Regarding your relocated receptacle. You said that the cabinets hide the old
>>>>>>>>> one. Assuming you turned the old receptacle box into a junction box and
>>>>>>>>> extended the wires, I hope you didn't hide that box behind the new cabinets.
>>>>>>>>> That's a code violation. At a minimum, you should cut a hole in the back of
>>>>>>>>> the cabinet so that it's accessible.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Yes, I turned the old wall outlet box into a junction box and added a
>>>>>>>> metal cover with a protected "L" coming out of it to guide the Romex out
>>>>>>>> of the box. From there to the new outlet between the 2 cabinets. It
>>>>>>>> is all accessible if you remove the bottom drawer.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> FWIW, "accessible" means that you must not need to remove "obstacles"
>>>>>>> for access, per the NEC.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'll have to live with that. ;~( I guess it could be argued that the
>>>>>> 8' desk that is in front of 2 outlets or the 8' cabinet, in front of an
>>>>>> outlet would not be allowed. Or our bed. ;~)
>>>>>
>>>>> The accessibility rule applies to junction boxes (which must
>>>>> not be hidden), not receptacles.
>>>>
>>>> Ohhhhh. So technically the box is simply an in and out to house the
>>>> wire nuts extending the cable going to the new location. No other
>>>> cables come in or out. But yeah, there is probably some rule against
>>>> that too.
>>> The reason the code forbids that is that the next owner or the electrician
>>> trying to diagnose an issue down-stream has no idea that your j-box is there,
>>> and then there is a potential fire hazard at any j-box depending on the
>>> method(s) used to make the connections.
>>
>> Forbids *what*?
>>
>> Are you saying the junction box behind Leon's drawer would be considered "hidden" per
>> the NEC? If so, please provide the relevant article.
>
>
>FWIW as I understand it a home owner can do most anything to his home
>code or no code. It is the licensed electrician that has to follow the
>rules.
>
>And this connection that I am extending terminated at that wall plug.
>It was a simple connection, there were only the single ground, neutral,
>and hot wires coming in. I understand the concerns but if my
>connection fails it will not affect any of the other outlets on the circuit.

My guess is you are not going to invite an electrical inspector to
check and sign off. With it being a terminated no worries for you just
a puzzle for the next home owner.

On Saturday, April 8, 2023 at 11:49:55 AM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
> On 4/4/2023 6:10 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> > On Tuesday, April 4, 2023 at 6:58:52 PM UTC-4, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> >> Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> writes:
> >>> On 4/4/2023 2:05 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> >>>> Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> writes:
> >>>>> On 4/4/2023 11:42 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> >>>>>> Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> writes:
> >>>>>>> On 4/4/2023 11:07 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Regarding your relocated receptacle. You said that the cabinets hide the old
> >>>>>>>> one. Assuming you turned the old receptacle box into a junction box and
> >>>>>>>> extended the wires, I hope you didn't hide that box behind the new cabinets.
> >>>>>>>> That's a code violation. At a minimum, you should cut a hole in the back of
> >>>>>>>> the cabinet so that it's accessible.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Yes, I turned the old wall outlet box into a junction box and added a
> >>>>>>> metal cover with a protected "L" coming out of it to guide the Romex out
> >>>>>>> of the box. From there to the new outlet between the 2 cabinets. It
> >>>>>>> is all accessible if you remove the bottom drawer.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> FWIW, "accessible" means that you must not need to remove "obstacles"
> >>>>>> for access, per the NEC.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I'll have to live with that. ;~( I guess it could be argued that the
> >>>>> 8' desk that is in front of 2 outlets or the 8' cabinet, in front of an
> >>>>> outlet would not be allowed. Or our bed. ;~)
> >>>>
> >>>> The accessibility rule applies to junction boxes (which must
> >>>> not be hidden), not receptacles.
> >>>
> >>> Ohhhhh. So technically the box is simply an in and out to house the
> >>> wire nuts extending the cable going to the new location. No other
> >>> cables come in or out. But yeah, there is probably some rule against
> >>> that too.
> >> The reason the code forbids that is that the next owner or the electrician
> >> trying to diagnose an issue down-stream has no idea that your j-box is there,
> >> and then there is a potential fire hazard at any j-box depending on the
> >> method(s) used to make the connections.
> >
> > Forbids *what*?
> >
> > Are you saying the junction box behind Leon's drawer would be considered "hidden" per
> > the NEC? If so, please provide the relevant article.
> FWIW as I understand it a home owner can do most anything to his home
> code or no code. It is the licensed electrician that has to follow the
> rules.

I'm sure a homeowner could do whatever they want. Of course, when it comes
time to sell, that could be an issue. This "no contingency" thing is a bit of a game.
The buyers may say "no inspection" when they put in an offer and then ask for one
afterwards "or we'll cancel the deal". That's when homeowner performed stuff
can come back and bite you if it's not done to code.

>
> And this connection that I am extending terminated at that wall plug.
> It was a simple connection, there were only the single ground, neutral,
> and hot wires coming in. I understand the concerns but if my
> connection fails it will not affect any of the other outlets on the circuit.

That depends on the mode of failure. Fire can affect lots of things. That's
why I brought up the new receptacle and article 314.20 regarding the box
being flush with the finished surface. The box and/or extension rings are
there to contain sparks (and small flames) from causing serious issues.

You'd be surprised how many videos showing how to install tile, shiplap,
etc. neglect to mention the requirement to extend the box. Some of them,
especially "homeowner" made videos, actually show the receptacle mounted
right on the wood shiplap with the box sunk into the wall half an inch. Yikes!

While some of the code may seem more of a nuisance than it's worth, there's
an underlying reason for it: safety of the homeowner and service personnel.
Just because homeowner is allowed to do their own work, that doesn't relieve
of the responsibility to follow the code. I do my own electrical work (other than
replacing a service line or panel) and I'm confident that everything I've done is
up to code. e.g. When I installed the inlet for my portable generator, I made
sure I knew what the code was for everything from the plug end of the generator
cord to the exterior inlet box to the interlock on the panel. A homeowner may be
"allowed" to put a male plug on both ends of a piece lamp cord and plug the
live end into any random receptacle, but that's not how I roll.

On 4/8/2023 12:23 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> writes:
>> On 4/4/2023 6:10 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>
>>>
>>> Are you saying the junction box behind Leon's drawer would be considered "hidden" per
>>> the NEC? If so, please provide the relevant article.
>>
>>
>> FWIW as I understand it a home owner can do most anything to his home
>> code or no code. It is the licensed electrician that has to follow the
>> rules.
>
> I think that depends on the county you live in. And possibly
> your insurance company (although I believe that to be urban legend).

Possibly so.

>
> Some locales don't allow unlicensed electrical work (I've personally
> seen horrible homeowner work on several occasions, including using
> AWG18 speaker wire on a 20a circuit).

Yeah, that wold be bad. LOL

>
>>
>> And this connection that I am extending terminated at that wall plug.
>> It was a simple connection, there were only the single ground, neutral,
>> and hot wires coming in. I understand the concerns but if my
>> connection fails it will not affect any of the other outlets on the circuit.
>
> There may be failure modes that could cause problems, a loose neutral
> for instance.

Understood but my connections were pretwisted with pliers and nipped to
equal length before the wire nuts were added so I believe that this will
not be an issue.

On 4/8/2023 3:25 PM, Markem618 wrote:
> On Sat, 8 Apr 2023 10:49:43 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote:
>
>> On 4/4/2023 6:10 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, April 4, 2023 at 6:58:52?PM UTC-4, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>>>> Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> writes:
>>>>> On 4/4/2023 2:05 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>>>>>> Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> writes:
>>>>>>> On 4/4/2023 11:42 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>>>>>>>> Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> writes:
>>>>>>>>> On 4/4/2023 11:07 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Regarding your relocated receptacle. You said that the cabinets hide the old
>>>>>>>>>> one. Assuming you turned the old receptacle box into a junction box and
>>>>>>>>>> extended the wires, I hope you didn't hide that box behind the new cabinets.
>>>>>>>>>> That's a code violation. At a minimum, you should cut a hole in the back of
>>>>>>>>>> the cabinet so that it's accessible.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Yes, I turned the old wall outlet box into a junction box and added a
>>>>>>>>> metal cover with a protected "L" coming out of it to guide the Romex out
>>>>>>>>> of the box. From there to the new outlet between the 2 cabinets. It
>>>>>>>>> is all accessible if you remove the bottom drawer.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> FWIW, "accessible" means that you must not need to remove "obstacles"
>>>>>>>> for access, per the NEC.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'll have to live with that. ;~( I guess it could be argued that the
>>>>>>> 8' desk that is in front of 2 outlets or the 8' cabinet, in front of an
>>>>>>> outlet would not be allowed. Or our bed. ;~)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The accessibility rule applies to junction boxes (which must
>>>>>> not be hidden), not receptacles.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ohhhhh. So technically the box is simply an in and out to house the
>>>>> wire nuts extending the cable going to the new location. No other
>>>>> cables come in or out. But yeah, there is probably some rule against
>>>>> that too.
>>>> The reason the code forbids that is that the next owner or the electrician
>>>> trying to diagnose an issue down-stream has no idea that your j-box is there,
>>>> and then there is a potential fire hazard at any j-box depending on the
>>>> method(s) used to make the connections.
>>>
>>> Forbids *what*?
>>>
>>> Are you saying the junction box behind Leon's drawer would be considered "hidden" per
>>> the NEC? If so, please provide the relevant article.
>>
>>
>> FWIW as I understand it a home owner can do most anything to his home
>> code or no code. It is the licensed electrician that has to follow the
>> rules.
>>
>> And this connection that I am extending terminated at that wall plug.
>> It was a simple connection, there were only the single ground, neutral,
>> and hot wires coming in. I understand the concerns but if my
>> connection fails it will not affect any of the other outlets on the circuit.
>
> My guess is you are not going to invite an electrical inspector to
> check and sign off. With it being a terminated no worries for you just
> a puzzle for the next home owner.

Correct. But it should not be an issue with the next home owner as the
junction box will be accessible IF the end of the line receptical
stooped working because a wire nut fell off and the connection came
loose. That could happen at any junction box.

On 4/8/2023 4:25 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> On Saturday, April 8, 2023 at 11:49:55 AM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
>> On 4/4/2023 6:10 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, April 4, 2023 at 6:58:52 PM UTC-4, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>>>> Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> writes:
>>>>> On 4/4/2023 2:05 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>>>>>> Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> writes:
>>>>>>> On 4/4/2023 11:42 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>>>>>>>> Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> writes:
>>>>>>>>> On 4/4/2023 11:07 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Regarding your relocated receptacle. You said that the cabinets hide the old
>>>>>>>>>> one. Assuming you turned the old receptacle box into a junction box and
>>>>>>>>>> extended the wires, I hope you didn't hide that box behind the new cabinets.
>>>>>>>>>> That's a code violation. At a minimum, you should cut a hole in the back of
>>>>>>>>>> the cabinet so that it's accessible.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Yes, I turned the old wall outlet box into a junction box and added a
>>>>>>>>> metal cover with a protected "L" coming out of it to guide the Romex out
>>>>>>>>> of the box. From there to the new outlet between the 2 cabinets. It
>>>>>>>>> is all accessible if you remove the bottom drawer.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> FWIW, "accessible" means that you must not need to remove "obstacles"
>>>>>>>> for access, per the NEC.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'll have to live with that. ;~( I guess it could be argued that the
>>>>>>> 8' desk that is in front of 2 outlets or the 8' cabinet, in front of an
>>>>>>> outlet would not be allowed. Or our bed. ;~)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The accessibility rule applies to junction boxes (which must
>>>>>> not be hidden), not receptacles.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ohhhhh. So technically the box is simply an in and out to house the
>>>>> wire nuts extending the cable going to the new location. No other
>>>>> cables come in or out. But yeah, there is probably some rule against
>>>>> that too.
>>>> The reason the code forbids that is that the next owner or the electrician
>>>> trying to diagnose an issue down-stream has no idea that your j-box is there,
>>>> and then there is a potential fire hazard at any j-box depending on the
>>>> method(s) used to make the connections.
>>>
>>> Forbids *what*?
>>>
>>> Are you saying the junction box behind Leon's drawer would be considered "hidden" per
>>> the NEC? If so, please provide the relevant article.
>> FWIW as I understand it a home owner can do most anything to his home
>> code or no code. It is the licensed electrician that has to follow the
>> rules.
>
> I'm sure a homeowner could do whatever they want. Of course, when it comes
> time to sell, that could be an issue. This "no contingency" thing is a bit of a game.
> The buyers may say "no inspection" when they put in an offer and then ask for one
> afterwards "or we'll cancel the deal". That's when homeowner performed stuff
> can come back and bite you if it's not done to code.

IF the inspector suspected something. It could be easily reversed and
the previous outlet box simply terminated and not extended as it is now.

>
>>
>> And this connection that I am extending terminated at that wall plug.
>> It was a simple connection, there were only the single ground, neutral,
>> and hot wires coming in. I understand the concerns but if my
>> connection fails it will not affect any of the other outlets on the circuit.
>
> That depends on the mode of failure. Fire can affect lots of things. That's
> why I brought up the new receptacle and article 314.20 regarding the box
> being flush with the finished surface. The box and/or extension rings are
> there to contain sparks (and small flames) from causing serious issues.

Yes, the new receptical is in a box and flush with the surface.

>
> You'd be surprised how many videos showing how to install tile, shiplap,
> etc. neglect to mention the requirement to extend the box. Some of them,
> especially "homeowner" made videos, actually show the receptacle mounted
> right on the wood shiplap with the box sunk into the wall half an inch. Yikes!
>
> While some of the code may seem more of a nuisance than it's worth, there's
> an underlying reason for it: safety of the homeowner and service personnel.
> Just because homeowner is allowed to do their own work, that doesn't relieve
> of the responsibility to follow the code. I do my own electrical work (other than
> replacing a service line or panel) and I'm confident that everything I've done is
> up to code. e.g. When I installed the inlet for my portable generator, I made
> sure I knew what the code was for everything from the plug end of the generator
> cord to the exterior inlet box to the interlock on the panel. A homeowner may be
> "allowed" to put a male plug on both ends of a piece lamp cord and plug the
> live end into any random receptacle, but that's not how I roll.
>

On Sunday, April 9, 2023 at 10:19:29 AM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
> On 4/8/2023 4:25 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> > On Saturday, April 8, 2023 at 11:49:55 AM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
> >> On 4/4/2023 6:10 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> >>> On Tuesday, April 4, 2023 at 6:58:52 PM UTC-4, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> >>>> Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> writes:
> >>>>> On 4/4/2023 2:05 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> >>>>>> Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> writes:
> >>>>>>> On 4/4/2023 11:42 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> >>>>>>>> Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> writes:
> >>>>>>>>> On 4/4/2023 11:07 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Regarding your relocated receptacle. You said that the cabinets hide the old
> >>>>>>>>>> one. Assuming you turned the old receptacle box into a junction box and
> >>>>>>>>>> extended the wires, I hope you didn't hide that box behind the new cabinets.
> >>>>>>>>>> That's a code violation. At a minimum, you should cut a hole in the back of
> >>>>>>>>>> the cabinet so that it's accessible.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Yes, I turned the old wall outlet box into a junction box and added a
> >>>>>>>>> metal cover with a protected "L" coming out of it to guide the Romex out
> >>>>>>>>> of the box. From there to the new outlet between the 2 cabinets.. It
> >>>>>>>>> is all accessible if you remove the bottom drawer.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> FWIW, "accessible" means that you must not need to remove "obstacles"
> >>>>>>>> for access, per the NEC.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I'll have to live with that. ;~( I guess it could be argued that the
> >>>>>>> 8' desk that is in front of 2 outlets or the 8' cabinet, in front of an
> >>>>>>> outlet would not be allowed. Or our bed. ;~)
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> The accessibility rule applies to junction boxes (which must
> >>>>>> not be hidden), not receptacles.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Ohhhhh. So technically the box is simply an in and out to house the
> >>>>> wire nuts extending the cable going to the new location. No other
> >>>>> cables come in or out. But yeah, there is probably some rule against
> >>>>> that too.
> >>>> The reason the code forbids that is that the next owner or the electrician
> >>>> trying to diagnose an issue down-stream has no idea that your j-box is there,
> >>>> and then there is a potential fire hazard at any j-box depending on the
> >>>> method(s) used to make the connections.
> >>>
> >>> Forbids *what*?
> >>>
> >>> Are you saying the junction box behind Leon's drawer would be considered "hidden" per
> >>> the NEC? If so, please provide the relevant article.
> >> FWIW as I understand it a home owner can do most anything to his home
> >> code or no code. It is the licensed electrician that has to follow the
> >> rules.
> >
> > I'm sure a homeowner could do whatever they want. Of course, when it comes
> > time to sell, that could be an issue. This "no contingency" thing is a bit of a game.
> > The buyers may say "no inspection" when they put in an offer and then ask for one
> > afterwards "or we'll cancel the deal". That's when homeowner performed stuff
> > can come back and bite you if it's not done to code.
> IF the inspector suspected something. It could be easily reversed and
> the previous outlet box simply terminated and not extended as it is now.
> >
> >>
> >> And this connection that I am extending terminated at that wall plug.
> >> It was a simple connection, there were only the single ground, neutral,
> >> and hot wires coming in. I understand the concerns but if my
> >> connection fails it will not affect any of the other outlets on the circuit.
> >
> > That depends on the mode of failure. Fire can affect lots of things. That's
> > why I brought up the new receptacle and article 314.20 regarding the box
> > being flush with the finished surface. The box and/or extension rings are
> > there to contain sparks (and small flames) from causing serious issues.
> Yes, the new receptical is in a box and flush with the surface.
> >

The NEC is kind of like our constitution. There are different ways to
interpret the wording and that often leads to confusion. So, I have to
ask...

Do you mean "the new receptacle is in a box and the *box* is flush with the
surface" or simply that the *receptacle* is flush with the surface?

Since the receptacle is the subject of your sentence, the "and flush with
the surface" refers to the receptacle, leaving the reader to wonder about
the box. The code requires the box to be flush with the surface, not the
receptacle. (Consider a recessed receptacle behind a TV.)

I'm not nit-picking, just trying to understand your installation.

On 4/9/2023 9:55 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:

Snip

>>>
>>> That depends on the mode of failure. Fire can affect lots of things. That's
>>> why I brought up the new receptacle and article 314.20 regarding the box
>>> being flush with the finished surface. The box and/or extension rings are
>>> there to contain sparks (and small flames) from causing serious issues.
>> Yes, the new receptical is in a box and flush with the surface.
>>>
>
> The NEC is kind of like our constitution. There are different ways to
> interpret the wording and that often leads to confusion. So, I have to
> ask...
>
> Do you mean "the new receptacle is in a box and the *box* is flush with the
> surface" or simply that the *receptacle* is flush with the surface?

Yes, the box is flush with the surface. Relatively, Some boxes extend
past the surface about 1/16" by design. The mounting tabs are proud
but against the surface. The cover plate fits flush against the
mounting surface too.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb11211/52804635584/in/datetaken/
>
> Since the receptacle is the subject of your sentence, the "and flush with
> the surface" refers to the receptacle, leaving the reader to wonder about
> the box. The code requires the box to be flush with the surface, not the
> receptacle. (Consider a recessed receptacle behind a TV.)
>
> I'm not nit-picking, just trying to understand your installation.
>

Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> writes:
>On 4/8/2023 12:23 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>> Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> writes:
>>> On 4/4/2023 6:10 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:

>>> And this connection that I am extending terminated at that wall plug.
>>> It was a simple connection, there were only the single ground, neutral,
>>> and hot wires coming in. I understand the concerns but if my
>>> connection fails it will not affect any of the other outlets on the circuit.
>>
>> There may be failure modes that could cause problems, a loose neutral
>> for instance.
>
>Understood but my connections were pretwisted with pliers and nipped to
>equal length before the wire nuts were added so I believe that this will
>not be an issue.

I highly recommend WAGO connectors rather than wirenuts.