On 8/24/2022 11:12 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> On Wednesday, August 24, 2022 at 10:45:43 PM UTC-4, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>> On 8/18/2022 12:19 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, August 17, 2022 at 11:46:11 PM UTC-4, Markem618 wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 17 Aug 2022 10:09:56 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
>>>> <teama...@eznet.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Survey time...
>>>>>
>>>>> How close to your miter saw blade do you allow your fingers to get
>>>>> while making a cut?
>>>> End of the table with the left, right hand is on the switch.
>>>
>>> So you never cut boards that are shorter than half the table?
>> If too short for comfort I put another board on top to hold it.
>
> Now there's a technique I've seen or even heard of.
>
>> Never measure but my limit is about 12" or so.
>
> I would need to put a decimal point between the 1 and the 2.
>
> What do you think could go wrong that keeps you 12" from the blade?
>
> Let's cut that in half. (NPI) Let's say your hand was 6" away. How would
> a person get hurt by a miter saw with a hand that is more than a finger's
> length away?

In theory, the blade travels a tight path so 1/4" is safe.

On 8/25/2022 3:20 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> On Thursday, August 25, 2022 at 12:38:12 AM UTC-4, Markem618 wrote:
>> On Wed, 24 Aug 2022 20:12:57 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
>> <teama...@eznet.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On Wednesday, August 24, 2022 at 10:45:43 PM UTC-4, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>>>> On 8/18/2022 12:19 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>>>>> On Wednesday, August 17, 2022 at 11:46:11 PM UTC-4, Markem618 wrote:
>>>>>> On Wed, 17 Aug 2022 10:09:56 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
>>>>>> <teama...@eznet.net> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Survey time...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> How close to your miter saw blade do you allow your fingers to get
>>>>>>> while making a cut?
>>>>>> End of the table with the left, right hand is on the switch.
>>>>>
>>>>> So you never cut boards that are shorter than half the table?
>>>> If too short for comfort I put another board on top to hold it.
>>>
>>> Now there's a technique I've seen or even heard of.
>>>
>>>> Never measure but my limit is about 12" or so.
>>>
>>> I would need to put a decimal point between the 1 and the 2.
>>>
>>> What do you think could go wrong that keeps you 12" from the blade?
>>>
>>> Let's cut that in half. (NPI) Let's say your hand was 6" away. How would
>>> a person get hurt by a miter saw with a hand that is more than a finger's
>>> length away?
>> Jammed finger if something goes awry?
>
> What do you mean by “jammed fingers” and what could go
> “awry” to cause that?
>

The work coming back against your hand or finger and jamming the finger
joint.

If the blade caught the piece you are holding and bangs it into the back
fence and then back toward your hand/finger.

> I’m looking for a specific situation, similar to how you would
> explain kickback on a table saw. “The board does _this_ causing
> your hand to do _this_.”
>
> What could happen with the wood and blade to cause an injury
> while holding it at 2” that wouldn’t happen while holding it at 6”
> or 12”? (I am, of course, assuming that the user is fully aware
> of the placement of all fingers, e.g. the thumb or any other finger
> is not in the path of the blade.)

With a 2" long piece you do not have as much leverage and or holding
force to keep the piece flat against the fence as with a 4" long piece.

When in doubt, with the saw blade up and away try a 2" long piece and a
4" long piece against the fence. Notice the more of the 4 inch piece is
against the fence and less likely to pivot at the fence opening than the
2" long piece.

Also think about cutting a 4 foot long piece in half. Now cutting 2"
off of the end of that piece. It happens with regularity that the
shorter cut off pieces twist, jam, and get thrown by the blade.

And the narrower the stock the more likely to jam.

>
>> Being tired and in a hurry is
>> not recommend though, that my story I have all my fingers though, skin
>> lucky grows back.

On 8/25/2022 8:33 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
> On 8/24/2022 11:12 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>> On Wednesday, August 24, 2022 at 10:45:43 PM UTC-4, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>>> On 8/18/2022 12:19 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>>>> On Wednesday, August 17, 2022 at 11:46:11 PM UTC-4, Markem618 wrote:
>>>>> On Wed, 17 Aug 2022 10:09:56 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
>>>>> <teama...@eznet.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Survey time...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> How close to your miter saw blade do you allow your fingers to get
>>>>>> while making a cut?
>>>>> End of the table with the left, right hand is on the switch.
>>>>
>>>> So you never cut boards that are shorter than half the table?
>>> If too short for comfort I put another board on top to hold it.
>>
>> Now there's a technique I've seen or even heard of.
>>
>>> Never measure but my limit is about 12" or so.
>>
>> I would need to put a decimal point between the 1 and the 2.
>>
>> What do you think could go wrong that keeps you 12" from the blade?
>>
>> Let's cut that in half. (NPI) Let's say your hand was 6" away. How would
>> a person get hurt by a miter saw with a hand that is more than a finger's
>> length away?
>
> In theory, the blade travels a tight path so 1/4" is safe.

Yes! but theory is what should happen. Case hardened wood, warped
wood, what ever the issue, the wood can move slightly and cause all
kinds of havoc if the piece is short and mostly NOT supported by the
back fence.

Most miter saw fences have something like a 2" gap between the left and
right fence. So if the piece is 2" wide only half of the piece is
being supported by the end of the fence on either side. The piece can
easily pivot on the end of the fence and get thrown by the blade.

A few weeks ago I was cutting base board moldings. In some cases the
piece needed was mitered on one end and square cut on the opposite and
they were 1.5" long.
This was a dangerous cut and I stood clear of the where that piece would
fly back should it pivot against the end of the fence. It happened
twice. Ideally this should have been done a TS but I was not at the shop.

On 8/25/2022 10:54 AM, Leon wrote:

>> What do you mean by “jammed fingers” and what could go
>> “awry” to cause that?
>>
>
> The work coming back against your hand or finger and jamming the finger
> joint.

I had a piece of wood snapped away ("forward") from me once,
so I will validate that it can happen. It was a gentle reminder
that the work should be pushed all the way forward before you cut! : )

On 8/25/2022 10:34 AM, Bill wrote:
> On 8/25/2022 10:54 AM, Leon wrote:
>
>>> What do you mean by “jammed fingers” and what could go
>>> “awry” to cause that?
>>>
>>
>> The work coming back against your hand or finger and jamming the
>> finger joint.
>
> I had a piece of wood snapped away ("forward") from me once,
> so I will validate that it can happen.  It was a gentle reminder
> that the work should be pushed all the way forward before you cut! : )

Well in my case if you do a LOT of woodworking something is going to
happen at some time or another. And a lapse of judgement is the
leading cause. Weekend before last I had issues with short pieces
coming back at me but this has happened time and again in the past so I
made sure that the saw motor was between me and the work.

On Wed, 24 Aug 2022 20:12:57 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
<teamarrows@eznet.net> wrote:

>On Wednesday, August 24, 2022 at 10:45:43 PM UTC-4, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>> On 8/18/2022 12:19 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>> > On Wednesday, August 17, 2022 at 11:46:11 PM UTC-4, Markem618 wrote:
>> >> On Wed, 17 Aug 2022 10:09:56 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
>> >> <teama...@eznet.net> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> Survey time...
>> >>>
>> >>> How close to your miter saw blade do you allow your fingers to get
>> >>> while making a cut?
>> >> End of the table with the left, right hand is on the switch.
>> >
>> > So you never cut boards that are shorter than half the table?
>> If too short for comfort I put another board on top to hold it.
>
>Now there's a technique I've seen or even heard of.
>
>> Never measure but my limit is about 12" or so.
>
>I would need to put a decimal point between the 1 and the 2.
>
>What do you think could go wrong that keeps you 12" from the blade?

GO wrong? Stupid mistake. Not thinking. Distraction (and if you say
that you're never distracted when your attitude about something is
"What could go wrong?", well...

As soon as you say "What could go wrong?" It will.

>Let's cut that in half. (NPI) Let's say your hand was 6" away. How would
>a person get hurt by a miter saw with a hand that is more than a finger's
>length away?

On Thu, 25 Aug 2022 09:33:17 -0400, Ed Pawlowski <esp@snet.xxx> wrote:

>On 8/24/2022 11:12 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>> On Wednesday, August 24, 2022 at 10:45:43 PM UTC-4, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>>> On 8/18/2022 12:19 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>>>> On Wednesday, August 17, 2022 at 11:46:11 PM UTC-4, Markem618 wrote:
>>>>> On Wed, 17 Aug 2022 10:09:56 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
>>>>> <teama...@eznet.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Survey time...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> How close to your miter saw blade do you allow your fingers to get
>>>>>> while making a cut?
>>>>> End of the table with the left, right hand is on the switch.
>>>>
>>>> So you never cut boards that are shorter than half the table?
>>> If too short for comfort I put another board on top to hold it.
>>
>> Now there's a technique I've seen or even heard of.
>>
>>> Never measure but my limit is about 12" or so.
>>
>> I would need to put a decimal point between the 1 and the 2.
>>
>> What do you think could go wrong that keeps you 12" from the blade?
>>
>> Let's cut that in half. (NPI) Let's say your hand was 6" away. How would
>> a person get hurt by a miter saw with a hand that is more than a finger's
>> length away?
>
>In theory, the blade travels a tight path so 1/4" is safe.

In theory, reality and theory are the same. In reality, they aren't.

On Thursday, August 25, 2022 at 2:36:10 PM UTC-4, k...@notreal.com wrote:
> On Wed, 24 Aug 2022 20:12:57 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
> <teama...@eznet.net> wrote:
>
> >On Wednesday, August 24, 2022 at 10:45:43 PM UTC-4, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
> >> On 8/18/2022 12:19 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> >> > On Wednesday, August 17, 2022 at 11:46:11 PM UTC-4, Markem618 wrote:
> >> >> On Wed, 17 Aug 2022 10:09:56 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
> >> >> <teama...@eznet.net> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >>> Survey time...
> >> >>>
> >> >>> How close to your miter saw blade do you allow your fingers to get
> >> >>> while making a cut?
> >> >> End of the table with the left, right hand is on the switch.
> >> >
> >> > So you never cut boards that are shorter than half the table?
> >> If too short for comfort I put another board on top to hold it.
> >
> >Now there's a technique I've seen or even heard of.
> >
> >> Never measure but my limit is about 12" or so.
> >
> >I would need to put a decimal point between the 1 and the 2.
> >
> >What do you think could go wrong that keeps you 12" from the blade?
> GO wrong? Stupid mistake. Not thinking. Distraction (and if you say
> that you're never distracted when your attitude about something is
> "What could go wrong?", well...

What you read as an "attitude" was typed as a legitimate question.

As far as being distracted, of course, that happens to all of us from time
to time. But if I am doing something like making a "hazardous" cut (e.g.
fingers close the blade) my concentration is centered on the cut.

I'm going to take a guess here and assume that you do the same thing:
"OK, pay attention. Where are my fingers, what is the wood going to do?
What could go wrong?"

I tend to follow the old adage of "If what you are about to do makes you
uncomfortable, there is probably a reason." Stop, think about it and perhaps
comes up with an alternative way to get the job done.

>
> As soon as you say "What could go wrong?" It will.

Nope, because, at least for me, saying "What could go wrong?" is not
the cavalier attitude that you took it to be. It's a legitimate question. An
assessment of the situation. A chance to change what I'm going to do
next, because I took the time to answer the question.

I ask myself that question all time and not just in the shop. Setting up
a ladder, jacking up the car, any situation where something *could* go
wrong, I ask myself "What could go wrong?" and then I adjust my plan
as required.

> >Let's cut that in half. (NPI) Let's say your hand was 6" away. How would
> >a person get hurt by a miter saw with a hand that is more than a finger's
> >length away?

On Thursday, August 25, 2022 at 11:05:03 AM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
> On 8/25/2022 8:33 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
> > On 8/24/2022 11:12 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> >> On Wednesday, August 24, 2022 at 10:45:43 PM UTC-4, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
> >>> On 8/18/2022 12:19 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> >>>> On Wednesday, August 17, 2022 at 11:46:11 PM UTC-4, Markem618 wrote:
> >>>>> On Wed, 17 Aug 2022 10:09:56 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
> >>>>> <teama...@eznet.net> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Survey time...
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> How close to your miter saw blade do you allow your fingers to get
> >>>>>> while making a cut?
> >>>>> End of the table with the left, right hand is on the switch.
> >>>>
> >>>> So you never cut boards that are shorter than half the table?
> >>> If too short for comfort I put another board on top to hold it.
> >>
> >> Now there's a technique I've seen or even heard of.
> >>
> >>> Never measure but my limit is about 12" or so.
> >>
> >> I would need to put a decimal point between the 1 and the 2.
> >>
> >> What do you think could go wrong that keeps you 12" from the blade?
> >>
> >> Let's cut that in half. (NPI) Let's say your hand was 6" away. How would
> >> a person get hurt by a miter saw with a hand that is more than a finger's
> >> length away?
> >
> > In theory, the blade travels a tight path so 1/4" is safe.
> Yes! but theory is what should happen. Case hardened wood, warped
> wood, what ever the issue, the wood can move slightly and cause all
> kinds of havoc if the piece is short and mostly NOT supported by the
> back fence.
>
>
> Most miter saw fences have something like a 2" gap between the left and
> right fence. So if the piece is 2" wide only half of the piece is
> being supported by the end of the fence on either side. The piece can
> easily pivot on the end of the fence and get thrown by the blade.
>
> A few weeks ago I was cutting base board moldings. In some cases the
> piece needed was mitered on one end and square cut on the opposite and
> they were 1.5" long.
> This was a dangerous cut and I stood clear of the where that piece would
> fly back should it pivot against the end of the fence. It happened
> twice. Ideally this should have been done a TS but I was not at the shop.

I agree with everything you've said here. I thought I addressed that issue
a few days ago, but looking back I see that I did not mentioned it. I know
that I thought about, because it makes a big difference in terms of my
hand placement question:

Both of my miter saws have zero clearance fences and zero clearance inserts.
I wouldn't cut some of the small pieces that I do without the fence and insert
backing up both sides as well as the bottom of the cut.

On the other hand (PI), you are talking about a situation where the cutoff could
be thrown, while I'm asking about hand placement on the board. In either case, a
zero clearance fence makes a huge difference.

(I was cutting some plugs in half on my bandsaw recently. I used blue painters
tape to create a zero clearance "insert" around the blade so that the plug was fully
supported by the table as it went through the blade.)

On Thu, 25 Aug 2022 12:30:42 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
<teamarrows@eznet.net> wrote:

>On Thursday, August 25, 2022 at 2:36:10 PM UTC-4, k...@notreal.com wrote:
>> On Wed, 24 Aug 2022 20:12:57 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
>> <teama...@eznet.net> wrote:
>>
>> >On Wednesday, August 24, 2022 at 10:45:43 PM UTC-4, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>> >> On 8/18/2022 12:19 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>> >> > On Wednesday, August 17, 2022 at 11:46:11 PM UTC-4, Markem618 wrote:
>> >> >> On Wed, 17 Aug 2022 10:09:56 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
>> >> >> <teama...@eznet.net> wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >>> Survey time...
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> How close to your miter saw blade do you allow your fingers to get
>> >> >>> while making a cut?
>> >> >> End of the table with the left, right hand is on the switch.
>> >> >
>> >> > So you never cut boards that are shorter than half the table?
>> >> If too short for comfort I put another board on top to hold it.
>> >
>> >Now there's a technique I've seen or even heard of.
>> >
>> >> Never measure but my limit is about 12" or so.
>> >
>> >I would need to put a decimal point between the 1 and the 2.
>> >
>> >What do you think could go wrong that keeps you 12" from the blade?
>> GO wrong? Stupid mistake. Not thinking. Distraction (and if you say
>> that you're never distracted when your attitude about something is
>> "What could go wrong?", well...
>
>What you read as an "attitude" was typed as a legitimate question.

"What can go wrong?" attitude leads to complacency.

>As far as being distracted, of course, that happens to all of us from time
>to time. But if I am doing something like making a "hazardous" cut (e.g.
>fingers close the blade) my concentration is centered on the cut.

THe nonchalant "What can go wrong?" attitude makes it a whole lot
worse. If you *expect* something to go wrong, distractions are a lot
less likely.

>
>I'm going to take a guess here and assume that you do the same thing:
>"OK, pay attention. Where are my fingers, what is the wood going to do?
>What could go wrong?"

The difference is that you're saying "What can go wrong?" as in "What,
me worry?", vs my attitude of "what _could_ go wrong?" (there is a
difference", or what happens _if_ something does go wrong". I don't
want my hands anywhere near the blade if something *DOES* go wrong,
even if that something could "never go wrong".

I'm a conservative. Unintended consequences are inevitable.
>
>I tend to follow the old adage of "If what you are about to do makes you
>uncomfortable, there is probably a reason." Stop, think about it and perhaps
>comes up with an alternative way to get the job done.

So that's why you put your fingers 2" from the blade? Putting your
fingers right next to a spinning, moving, blade doesn't make you
uncomfortable? It certainly does me. That's why they're a shoulder's
width away.

>> As soon as you say "What could go wrong?" It will.
>
>Nope, because, at least for me, saying "What could go wrong?" is not
>the cavalier attitude that you took it to be. It's a legitimate question. An
>assessment of the situation. A chance to change what I'm going to do
>next, because I took the time to answer the question.

Yet you put your fingers right next to a spinning, moving blade. Even
parallax doesn't bother you.

>I ask myself that question all time and not just in the shop. Setting up
>a ladder, jacking up the car, any situation where something *could* go
>wrong, I ask myself "What could go wrong?" and then I adjust my plan
>as required.
>
But you don't think "What can go wrong, then lean 2' outside the
ladder or use the top step anyway.

>> >Let's cut that in half. (NPI) Let's say your hand was 6" away. How would
>> >a person get hurt by a miter saw with a hand that is more than a finger's
>> >length away?

12" from the blade on many (most?) miter saws is outside of the fence - you'd be pushing against air.

On Thu, 25 Aug 2022 15:23:31 -0700 (PDT), Jay Pique
<JayPique@hotmail.com> wrote:

>12" from the blade on many (most?) miter saws is outside of the fence - you'd be pushing against air.

13" from blade to edge of table on one, 11" on the other. From
sternum to shoulder = 9". It works even without a miter station.

On Thursday, August 25, 2022 at 5:46:49 PM UTC-4, k...@notreal.com wrote:
> On Thu, 25 Aug 2022 12:30:42 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
> <teama...@eznet.net> wrote:
>
> >On Thursday, August 25, 2022 at 2:36:10 PM UTC-4, k...@notreal.com wrote:
> >> On Wed, 24 Aug 2022 20:12:57 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
> >> <teama...@eznet.net> wrote:
> >>
> >> >On Wednesday, August 24, 2022 at 10:45:43 PM UTC-4, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
> >> >> On 8/18/2022 12:19 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> >> >> > On Wednesday, August 17, 2022 at 11:46:11 PM UTC-4, Markem618 wrote:
> >> >> >> On Wed, 17 Aug 2022 10:09:56 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
> >> >> >> <teama...@eznet.net> wrote:
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>> Survey time...
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>> How close to your miter saw blade do you allow your fingers to get
> >> >> >>> while making a cut?
> >> >> >> End of the table with the left, right hand is on the switch.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > So you never cut boards that are shorter than half the table?
> >> >> If too short for comfort I put another board on top to hold it.
> >> >
> >> >Now there's a technique I've seen or even heard of.
> >> >
> >> >> Never measure but my limit is about 12" or so.
> >> >
> >> >I would need to put a decimal point between the 1 and the 2.
> >> >
> >> >What do you think could go wrong that keeps you 12" from the blade?
> >> GO wrong? Stupid mistake. Not thinking. Distraction (and if you say
> >> that you're never distracted when your attitude about something is
> >> "What could go wrong?", well...
> >
> >What you read as an "attitude" was typed as a legitimate question.
> "What can go wrong?" attitude leads to complacency.
> >As far as being distracted, of course, that happens to all of us from time
> >to time. But if I am doing something like making a "hazardous" cut (e.g.
> >fingers close the blade) my concentration is centered on the cut.
> THe nonchalant "What can go wrong?" attitude makes it a whole lot
> worse. If you *expect* something to go wrong, distractions are a lot
> less likely.
> >
> >I'm going to take a guess here and assume that you do the same thing:
> >"OK, pay attention. Where are my fingers, what is the wood going to do?
> >What could go wrong?"
> The difference is that you're saying "What can go wrong?" as in "What,
> me worry?", vs my attitude of "what _could_ go wrong?" (there is a
> difference", or what happens _if_ something does go wrong". I don't
> want my hands anywhere near the blade if something *DOES* go wrong,
> even if that something could "never go wrong".
>
> I'm a conservative. Unintended consequences are inevitable.
> >
> >I tend to follow the old adage of "If what you are about to do makes you
> >uncomfortable, there is probably a reason." Stop, think about it and perhaps
> >comes up with an alternative way to get the job done.
> So that's why you put your fingers 2" from the blade? Putting your
> fingers right next to a spinning, moving, blade doesn't make you
> uncomfortable? It certainly does me. That's why they're a shoulder's
> width away.
> >> As soon as you say "What could go wrong?" It will.
> >
> >Nope, because, at least for me, saying "What could go wrong?" is not
> >the cavalier attitude that you took it to be. It's a legitimate question. An
> >assessment of the situation. A chance to change what I'm going to do
> >next, because I took the time to answer the question.
> Yet you put your fingers right next to a spinning, moving blade. Even
> parallax doesn't bother you.
> >I ask myself that question all time and not just in the shop. Setting up
> >a ladder, jacking up the car, any situation where something *could* go
> >wrong, I ask myself "What could go wrong?" and then I adjust my plan
> >as required.
> >
> But you don't think "What can go wrong, then lean 2' outside the
> ladder or use the top step anyway.
> >> >Let's cut that in half. (NPI) Let's say your hand was 6" away. How would
> >> >a person get hurt by a miter saw with a hand that is more than a finger's
> >> >length away?

It's like you never even read my post. If you did, then you certainly missed the
point by about 1000 board feet.

I said, right at the beginning, that you mistook my question for an attitude, yet
you came right back with "What can go wrong?" attitude leads to complacency."

Then you repeated your assumption, absolutely reversing what I specifically said.

"The difference is that you're saying "What can go wrong?" as in "What,
me worry?", vs my attitude of "what _could_ go wrong?""

You are completely wrong with that assumption. I said it before and I just said it
again - for the last time.

On Thursday, August 25, 2022 at 7:11:36 PM UTC-4, k...@notreal.com wrote:
> On Thu, 25 Aug 2022 15:23:31 -0700 (PDT), Jay Pique
> <JayP...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >12" from the blade on many (most?) miter saws is outside of the fence - you'd be pushing against air.
> 13" from blade to edge of table on one, 11" on the other. From
> sternum to shoulder = 9". It works even without a miter station.

What are you even talking about -is this meant for me or your tailor?

On Thu, 25 Aug 2022 16:48:37 -0700 (PDT), Jay Pique
<JayPique@hotmail.com> wrote:

>On Thursday, August 25, 2022 at 7:11:36 PM UTC-4, k...@notreal.com wrote:
>> On Thu, 25 Aug 2022 15:23:31 -0700 (PDT), Jay Pique
>> <JayP...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >12" from the blade on many (most?) miter saws is outside of the fence - you'd be pushing against air.
>> 13" from blade to edge of table on one, 11" on the other. From
>> sternum to shoulder = 9". It works even without a miter station.
>
>What are you even talking about -is this meant for me or your tailor?

Read the thread. *I* didn't say 12". That was DD.

*I* said a shoulder's width (i.e. arm kept straight from shoulder to
saw).

On Thu, 25 Aug 2022 16:28:22 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
<teamarrows@eznet.net> wrote:

>On Thursday, August 25, 2022 at 5:46:49 PM UTC-4, k...@notreal.com wrote:
>> On Thu, 25 Aug 2022 12:30:42 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
>> <teama...@eznet.net> wrote:
>>
>> >On Thursday, August 25, 2022 at 2:36:10 PM UTC-4, k...@notreal.com wrote:
>> >> On Wed, 24 Aug 2022 20:12:57 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
>> >> <teama...@eznet.net> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >On Wednesday, August 24, 2022 at 10:45:43 PM UTC-4, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>> >> >> On 8/18/2022 12:19 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>> >> >> > On Wednesday, August 17, 2022 at 11:46:11 PM UTC-4, Markem618 wrote:
>> >> >> >> On Wed, 17 Aug 2022 10:09:56 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
>> >> >> >> <teama...@eznet.net> wrote:
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>> Survey time...
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>> How close to your miter saw blade do you allow your fingers to get
>> >> >> >>> while making a cut?
>> >> >> >> End of the table with the left, right hand is on the switch.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > So you never cut boards that are shorter than half the table?
>> >> >> If too short for comfort I put another board on top to hold it.
>> >> >
>> >> >Now there's a technique I've seen or even heard of.
>> >> >
>> >> >> Never measure but my limit is about 12" or so.
>> >> >
>> >> >I would need to put a decimal point between the 1 and the 2.
>> >> >
>> >> >What do you think could go wrong that keeps you 12" from the blade?
>> >> GO wrong? Stupid mistake. Not thinking. Distraction (and if you say
>> >> that you're never distracted when your attitude about something is
>> >> "What could go wrong?", well...
>> >
>> >What you read as an "attitude" was typed as a legitimate question.
>> "What can go wrong?" attitude leads to complacency.
>> >As far as being distracted, of course, that happens to all of us from time
>> >to time. But if I am doing something like making a "hazardous" cut (e.g.
>> >fingers close the blade) my concentration is centered on the cut.
>> THe nonchalant "What can go wrong?" attitude makes it a whole lot
>> worse. If you *expect* something to go wrong, distractions are a lot
>> less likely.
>> >
>> >I'm going to take a guess here and assume that you do the same thing:
>> >"OK, pay attention. Where are my fingers, what is the wood going to do?
>> >What could go wrong?"
>> The difference is that you're saying "What can go wrong?" as in "What,
>> me worry?", vs my attitude of "what _could_ go wrong?" (there is a
>> difference", or what happens _if_ something does go wrong". I don't
>> want my hands anywhere near the blade if something *DOES* go wrong,
>> even if that something could "never go wrong".
>>
>> I'm a conservative. Unintended consequences are inevitable.
>> >
>> >I tend to follow the old adage of "If what you are about to do makes you
>> >uncomfortable, there is probably a reason." Stop, think about it and perhaps
>> >comes up with an alternative way to get the job done.
>> So that's why you put your fingers 2" from the blade? Putting your
>> fingers right next to a spinning, moving, blade doesn't make you
>> uncomfortable? It certainly does me. That's why they're a shoulder's
>> width away.
>> >> As soon as you say "What could go wrong?" It will.
>> >
>> >Nope, because, at least for me, saying "What could go wrong?" is not
>> >the cavalier attitude that you took it to be. It's a legitimate question. An
>> >assessment of the situation. A chance to change what I'm going to do
>> >next, because I took the time to answer the question.
>> Yet you put your fingers right next to a spinning, moving blade. Even
>> parallax doesn't bother you.
>> >I ask myself that question all time and not just in the shop. Setting up
>> >a ladder, jacking up the car, any situation where something *could* go
>> >wrong, I ask myself "What could go wrong?" and then I adjust my plan
>> >as required.
>> >
>> But you don't think "What can go wrong, then lean 2' outside the
>> ladder or use the top step anyway.
>> >> >Let's cut that in half. (NPI) Let's say your hand was 6" away. How would
>> >> >a person get hurt by a miter saw with a hand that is more than a finger's
>> >> >length away?
>
>It's like you never even read my post. If you did, then you certainly missed the
>point by about 1000 board feet.

No, 1000bf has no point. We're talking about the distance from
fingers to blade.

>I said, right at the beginning, that you mistook my question for an attitude, yet
>you came right back with "What can go wrong?" attitude leads to complacency."

It is a very ambiguous statement.

>Then you repeated your assumption, absolutely reversing what I specifically said.
>
>"The difference is that you're saying "What can go wrong?" as in "What,
> me worry?", vs my attitude of "what _could_ go wrong?""

You can't always know what _could_ go wrong. I want as much margin as
possible.

>You are completely wrong with that assumption. I said it before and I just said it
>again - for the last time.

OK

On 8/25/2022 3:30 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:

> I ask myself that question all time and not just in the shop. Setting up
> a ladder, jacking up the car, any situation where something *could* go
> wrong, I ask myself "What could go wrong?" and then I adjust my plan
> as required.

Someone formulated a rule (which can't restate exactly), but the gist of
it is that the "set up" should be such that there are at least two
mistakes in front of any major mishap, not just one.

On Thursday, August 25, 2022 at 8:32:15 PM UTC-4, k...@notreal.com wrote:
> On Thu, 25 Aug 2022 16:48:37 -0700 (PDT), Jay Pique
> <JayP...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >On Thursday, August 25, 2022 at 7:11:36 PM UTC-4, k...@notreal.com wrote:
> >> On Thu, 25 Aug 2022 15:23:31 -0700 (PDT), Jay Pique
> >> <JayP...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> >12" from the blade on many (most?) miter saws is outside of the fence - you'd be pushing against air.
> >> 13" from blade to edge of table on one, 11" on the other. From
> >> sternum to shoulder = 9". It works even without a miter station.
> >
> >What are you even talking about -is this meant for me or your tailor?
> Read the thread. *I* didn't say 12". That was DD.
>
> *I* said a shoulder's width (i.e. arm kept straight from shoulder to
> saw).

Actually you said, and I quote, "Shoulder's width. Both arms/hands straight forward."
But we both know why you changed it.

On Fri, 26 Aug 2022 01:06:51 -0400, Bill <nonegiven@att.net> wrote:

>On 8/25/2022 3:30 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>
>> I ask myself that question all time and not just in the shop. Setting up
>> a ladder, jacking up the car, any situation where something *could* go
>> wrong, I ask myself "What could go wrong?" and then I adjust my plan
>> as required.
>
>Someone formulated a rule (which can't restate exactly), but the gist of
>it is that the "set up" should be such that there are at least two
>mistakes in front of any major mishap, not just one.

And airplanes still fall out of the sky.

On Thursday, August 25, 2022 at 8:32:15 PM UTC-4, k...@notreal.com wrote:
> On Thu, 25 Aug 2022 16:48:37 -0700 (PDT), Jay Pique
> <JayP...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >On Thursday, August 25, 2022 at 7:11:36 PM UTC-4, k...@notreal.com wrote:
> >> On Thu, 25 Aug 2022 15:23:31 -0700 (PDT), Jay Pique
> >> <JayP...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> >12" from the blade on many (most?) miter saws is outside of the fence - you'd be pushing against air.
> >> 13" from blade to edge of table on one, 11" on the other. From
> >> sternum to shoulder = 9". It works even without a miter station.
> >
> >What are you even talking about -is this meant for me or your tailor?
> Read the thread. *I* didn't say 12". That was DD.

Read the thread. *I* didn't say 12". That was Ed.

I *questioned* Ed's limit of 12", asking what he thought could wrong that
set 12" as his limit.

>
> *I* said a shoulder's width (i.e. arm kept straight from shoulder to
> saw).

On 8/25/2022 2:49 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> On Thursday, August 25, 2022 at 11:05:03 AM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
>> On 8/25/2022 8:33 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>>> On 8/24/2022 11:12 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>>>> On Wednesday, August 24, 2022 at 10:45:43 PM UTC-4, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>>>>> On 8/18/2022 12:19 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>>>>>> On Wednesday, August 17, 2022 at 11:46:11 PM UTC-4, Markem618 wrote:
>>>>>>> On Wed, 17 Aug 2022 10:09:56 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
>>>>>>> <teama...@eznet.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Survey time...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> How close to your miter saw blade do you allow your fingers to get
>>>>>>>> while making a cut?
>>>>>>> End of the table with the left, right hand is on the switch.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So you never cut boards that are shorter than half the table?
>>>>> If too short for comfort I put another board on top to hold it.
>>>>
>>>> Now there's a technique I've seen or even heard of.
>>>>
>>>>> Never measure but my limit is about 12" or so.
>>>>
>>>> I would need to put a decimal point between the 1 and the 2.
>>>>
>>>> What do you think could go wrong that keeps you 12" from the blade?
>>>>
>>>> Let's cut that in half. (NPI) Let's say your hand was 6" away. How would
>>>> a person get hurt by a miter saw with a hand that is more than a finger's
>>>> length away?
>>>
>>> In theory, the blade travels a tight path so 1/4" is safe.
>> Yes! but theory is what should happen. Case hardened wood, warped
>> wood, what ever the issue, the wood can move slightly and cause all
>> kinds of havoc if the piece is short and mostly NOT supported by the
>> back fence.
>>
>>
>> Most miter saw fences have something like a 2" gap between the left and
>> right fence. So if the piece is 2" wide only half of the piece is
>> being supported by the end of the fence on either side. The piece can
>> easily pivot on the end of the fence and get thrown by the blade.
>>
>> A few weeks ago I was cutting base board moldings. In some cases the
>> piece needed was mitered on one end and square cut on the opposite and
>> they were 1.5" long.
>> This was a dangerous cut and I stood clear of the where that piece would
>> fly back should it pivot against the end of the fence. It happened
>> twice. Ideally this should have been done a TS but I was not at the shop.
>
> I agree with everything you've said here. I thought I addressed that issue
> a few days ago, but looking back I see that I did not mentioned it. I know
> that I thought about, because it makes a big difference in terms of my
> hand placement question:
>
> Both of my miter saws have zero clearance fences and zero clearance inserts.
> I wouldn't cut some of the small pieces that I do without the fence and insert
> backing up both sides as well as the bottom of the cut.

Yes but normally I cut small pieces in my shop on the TS. This was an
onsite job and I do not have zero clearance fences on my Kapex, yet.
And I am not certain that a zero clearance fence would be the answer in
this case. The moldings were too tall to make miter cuts, So I made
bevel cuts which would have made a V on a Zero clearance fence. That
still would have provided poor support.

>
> On the other hand (PI), you are talking about a situation where the cutoff could
> be thrown, while I'm asking about hand placement on the board. In either case, a
> zero clearance fence makes a huge difference.

Again bevel cuts vs miter cuts.

>
> (I was cutting some plugs in half on my bandsaw recently. I used blue painters
> tape to create a zero clearance "insert" around the blade so that the plug was fully
> supported by the table as it went through the blade.)
>
+1

On Friday, August 26, 2022 at 12:23:50 PM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
> On 8/25/2022 2:49 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> > On Thursday, August 25, 2022 at 11:05:03 AM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
> >> On 8/25/2022 8:33 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
> >>> On 8/24/2022 11:12 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> >>>> On Wednesday, August 24, 2022 at 10:45:43 PM UTC-4, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
> >>>>> On 8/18/2022 12:19 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> >>>>>> On Wednesday, August 17, 2022 at 11:46:11 PM UTC-4, Markem618 wrote:
> >>>>>>> On Wed, 17 Aug 2022 10:09:56 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
> >>>>>>> <teama...@eznet.net> wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Survey time...
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> How close to your miter saw blade do you allow your fingers to get
> >>>>>>>> while making a cut?
> >>>>>>> End of the table with the left, right hand is on the switch.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> So you never cut boards that are shorter than half the table?
> >>>>> If too short for comfort I put another board on top to hold it.
> >>>>
> >>>> Now there's a technique I've seen or even heard of.
> >>>>
> >>>>> Never measure but my limit is about 12" or so.
> >>>>
> >>>> I would need to put a decimal point between the 1 and the 2.
> >>>>
> >>>> What do you think could go wrong that keeps you 12" from the blade?
> >>>>
> >>>> Let's cut that in half. (NPI) Let's say your hand was 6" away. How would
> >>>> a person get hurt by a miter saw with a hand that is more than a finger's
> >>>> length away?
> >>>
> >>> In theory, the blade travels a tight path so 1/4" is safe.
> >> Yes! but theory is what should happen. Case hardened wood, warped
> >> wood, what ever the issue, the wood can move slightly and cause all
> >> kinds of havoc if the piece is short and mostly NOT supported by the
> >> back fence.
> >>
> >>
> >> Most miter saw fences have something like a 2" gap between the left and
> >> right fence. So if the piece is 2" wide only half of the piece is
> >> being supported by the end of the fence on either side. The piece can
> >> easily pivot on the end of the fence and get thrown by the blade.
> >>
> >> A few weeks ago I was cutting base board moldings. In some cases the
> >> piece needed was mitered on one end and square cut on the opposite and
> >> they were 1.5" long.
> >> This was a dangerous cut and I stood clear of the where that piece would
> >> fly back should it pivot against the end of the fence. It happened
> >> twice. Ideally this should have been done a TS but I was not at the shop.
> >
> > I agree with everything you've said here. I thought I addressed that issue
> > a few days ago, but looking back I see that I did not mentioned it. I know
> > that I thought about, because it makes a big difference in terms of my
> > hand placement question:
> >
> > Both of my miter saws have zero clearance fences and zero clearance inserts.
> > I wouldn't cut some of the small pieces that I do without the fence and insert
> > backing up both sides as well as the bottom of the cut.
> Yes but normally I cut small pieces in my shop on the TS. This was an
> onsite job and I do not have zero clearance fences on my Kapex, yet.
> And I am not certain that a zero clearance fence would be the answer in
> this case. The moldings were too tall to make miter cuts, So I made
> bevel cuts which would have made a V on a Zero clearance fence. That
> still would have provided poor support.

Yes...not all situations are equal.
> >
> > On the other hand (PI), you are talking about a situation where the cutoff could
> > be thrown, while I'm asking about hand placement on the board. In either case, a
> > zero clearance fence makes a huge difference.
> Again bevel cuts vs miter cuts.

Yes...not all situations are equal.

> >
> > (I was cutting some plugs in half on my bandsaw recently. I used blue painters
> > tape to create a zero clearance "insert" around the blade so that the plug was fully
> > supported by the table as it went through the blade.)
> >
> +1

Thanks.

Bill <nonegiven@att.net> on Fri, 26 Aug 2022 01:06:51 -0400 typed in
rec.woodworking the following:
>On 8/25/2022 3:30 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>
>> I ask myself that question all time and not just in the shop. Setting up
>> a ladder, jacking up the car, any situation where something *could* go
>> wrong, I ask myself "What could go wrong?" and then I adjust my plan
>> as required.

Sometimes, you have no idea what could go wrong, until it does.

E.G., jack stands on cobblestone paving are mostly stable. Until
they are not, and the one stone under the leg "packs" down just that
"little bit" to get vector of the weight of the bus past the
metacenter, and the jack tips. Just a little, before it falls over.
Fortunately, I heard the "creaking" and rolled out from underneath as
it fell.
So, now I know "what can go wrong" for a large class of
activities.
>
>Someone formulated a rule (which can't restate exactly), but the gist of
>it is that the "set up" should be such that there are at least two
>mistakes in front of any major mishap, not just one.
--
pyotr filipivich
This Week's Panel: Us & Them - Eliminating Them.
Next Month's Panel: Having eliminated the old Them(tm)
Selecting who insufficiently Woke(tm) as to serve as the new Them(tm)

On Friday, August 26, 2022 at 2:30:58 PM UTC-4, pyotr filipivich wrote:
> Bill <none...@att.net> on Fri, 26 Aug 2022 01:06:51 -0400 typed in
> rec.woodworking the following:
> >On 8/25/2022 3:30 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> >
> >> I ask myself that question all time and not just in the shop. Setting up
> >> a ladder, jacking up the car, any situation where something *could* go
> >> wrong, I ask myself "What could go wrong?" and then I adjust my plan
> >> as required.
> Sometimes, you have no idea what could go wrong, until it does.

That's absolutely true but it doesn't mean that you shouldn't ask yourself
the "What could go wrong?" question and, using your past knowledge and
experience, eliminate all of the possible issues that you can think of.

Similar to what you said, there's an old saying "We don't know what we don't
know." Simply reminding ourselves of that can help make the surprises less
surprising.

>
> E.G., jack stands on cobblestone paving are mostly stable. Until
> they are not, and the one stone under the leg "packs" down just that
> "little bit" to get vector of the weight of the bus past the
> metacenter, and the jack tips. Just a little, before it falls over.

I have four 12" x 12" x 1/4" steel plates stored with my jack stands. I
don't take any chances when I get under a vehicle. Each jack stand gets
a solid platform of its own. (The plates also prevent the legs from leaving
indentations on a hot asphalt driveway.)

....snip...

On Fri, 26 Aug 2022 04:01:51 -0700 (PDT), Jay Pique
<JayPique@hotmail.com> wrote:

>On Thursday, August 25, 2022 at 8:32:15 PM UTC-4, k...@notreal.com wrote:
>> On Thu, 25 Aug 2022 16:48:37 -0700 (PDT), Jay Pique
>> <JayP...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >On Thursday, August 25, 2022 at 7:11:36 PM UTC-4, k...@notreal.com wrote:
>> >> On Thu, 25 Aug 2022 15:23:31 -0700 (PDT), Jay Pique
>> >> <JayP...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >12" from the blade on many (most?) miter saws is outside of the fence - you'd be pushing against air.
>> >> 13" from blade to edge of table on one, 11" on the other. From
>> >> sternum to shoulder = 9". It works even without a miter station.
>> >
>> >What are you even talking about -is this meant for me or your tailor?
>> Read the thread. *I* didn't say 12". That was DD.
>>
>> *I* said a shoulder's width (i.e. arm kept straight from shoulder to
>> saw).
>
>Actually you said, and I quote, "Shoulder's width. Both arms/hands straight forward."
>But we both know why you changed it.

Oh, good grief. Are you always such an asshole?

First, you *did* say 12". Second, I'm not really that concerned about
the hand holding the handle.