rbowman wrote on 3/27/2024 9:23 PM:
> On Wed, 27 Mar 2024 12:15:58 -0400, 😎 Mighty Wannabe ✅ wrote:
>
>> The red exclamation mark you saw might have meant the road construction
>> that was going on. Six construction workers who were pouring concrete on
>> the bridge went down with the bridge.
> https://www.cbsnews.com/baltimore/news/who-is-missing-in-baltimores-francis-scott-key-bridge-collapse-what-we-know-about-those-unaccounted-for
>
> "The men, who are now presumed dead, are from El Salvador, Guatemala,
> Honduras and Mexico, and were living in Dundalk and Highlandtown,
> according to WJZ media partner The Baltimore Banner."
>
> Hmmmmm...

What's your point? You think they would have survived the fall and not
drown after falling from that height if they were white?

On 3/27/2024 10:58 AM, Frank wrote:
> On 3/27/2024 10:27 AM, Retirednoguilt wrote:
>> On 3/26/2024 7:54 PM, Ed P wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> I never thought much about it in the past, but things happen.  One
>>> Sunday night we were going home to CT from Philadelphia.  Heavy traffic
>>> on the GW bridge and we were stopped a minute.  My daughter noticed the
>>> bridge moving and asked about it.  I told here they were designed to
>>> move in high winds and storms, nothing to worry about.   We continued on
>>> I95 north.  Next morning, I have the news on and hear the Mianus River
>>> Bridge collapsed a bit after we crossed it.
>>>
>>
>> Many of us have had close calls.  I'm an extremely punctual person, to
>> the point of usually being somewhat early.  Only once in my life did I
>> ever miss an airplane flight.  I was a high school student visiting an
>> out of town college to be interviewed and also to try to decide if I
>> wanted to apply.  There were accidents on the road ahead during the cab
>> ride from my home to the airport and we were in stop and go traffic for
>> almost an hour.  I missed the plane - which crashed with no survivors
>> during the flight that I missed.  Life is just a series of serendipitous
>> happenings.
>>

The benefit of a college education?
I think I never would have left my house again.

>
> We are now hearing that a project has been going on at the Delaware
> Memorial twin span to add protectors to the bridge column.  Should be
> complete next year.  They did foresee the need with bigger vessels going
> up the river.
>
> https://www.delawarepublic.org/delaware-headlines/2024-03-26/work-on-the-delaware-memorial-bridge-collision-protection-system-is-going-smoothly
>
>
> Apparently the other bridges going to PA are OK.

I believe Buttigieg has said he doesn't know of any bridge that could
withstand a similar hit. The energy is huge. Unless the barrier extended
far from the piers (to gradually slow) the barrier would put a huge dent
in the ship (which requires a less large barrier that won't move,
perhaps made of unobtainium). You can't suddenly stop the ship.

May be more practical to require tug boats accompany large ships. Lower
speeds (was going about 9 mph)?

"When an irresistible force such as [a ship] meets an old immovable
object like [a bridge]...."

On 3/28/2024 12:38 AM, bud-- wrote:

> I believe Buttigieg has said he doesn't know of any bridge that could
> withstand a similar hit. The energy is huge. Unless the barrier extended
> far from the piers (to gradually slow) the barrier would put a huge dent
> in the ship (which requires a less large barrier that won't move,
> perhaps made of unobtainium). You can't suddenly stop the ship.
>
> May be more practical to require tug boats accompany large ships. Lower
> speeds (was going about 9 mph)?
>
> "When an irresistible force such as [a ship] meets an old immovable
> object like [a bridge]...."

Have you ever piloted a boat? At lower speed it may have been more of a
danger and less maneuverable. The rudder requires motion to make the
vessel turn. Tides and currents are factors also.

Tug may or may not have helped, depending on timing and staging.

On Thu, 28 Mar 2024 00:58:26 +1100, Retirednoguilt
<HapilyRetired@fakeaddress.com> wrote:

> On 3/27/2024 2:53 AM, 😎 Mighty Wannabe ✅ wrote:
>> Ed P wrote on 3/26/2024 7:54 PM:
>>> I image most of you have seen the video of the Francis Scott Key
>>> bridge in Baltimore getting hit my a ship. Went down like a kids toy.
>>>
>>>
>>> I never thought much about it in the past, but things happen. One
>>> Sunday night we were going home to CT from Philadelphia. Heavy
>>> traffic on the GW bridge and we were stopped a minute. My daughter
>>> noticed the bridge moving and asked about it. I told here they were
>>> designed to move in high winds and storms, nothing to worry about. We
>>> continued on I95 north. Next morning, I have the news on and hear
>>> the Mianus River Bridge collapsed a bit after we crossed it.
>>>
>>> I don't worry, but I do think about the possibility. I often cross
>>> the Skyway Bridge over Tampa Bay. It is the bridge rebuilt after the
>>> original went down in 1980. What remained has been converted to
>>> fishing piers.
>>
>> It's a matter of time a large ship would hit the pier and take out the
>> supporting truss structure (note that even the legs of the bridge are
>> truss A-frames, not concrete columns) of the truss bridge. They built
>> the bridge so flimsy, for convenience. No "over-engineering" at all. I
>> blame capitalism. Award the project to the company which submits the
>> lowest bid. Brace for more "bare minimum" American engineering come
>> tumbling down. China is building infrastructure all over Africa and
>> South America. Maybe pay China to "Build Back Better" for Uncle Sam.
>>
>>
>>
>
> You seem so enamored with the way China is doing things, why don't you
> move there? Permanently!

They aren't actually stupid enough to have him.

On Thu, 28 Mar 2024 01:38:20 +1100, micky <NONONOmisc07@fmguy.com> wrote:

> In alt.home.repair, on Wed, 27 Mar 2024 02:53:32 -0400, ? Mighty Wannabe
> ? <@.> wrote:
>
>> Ed P wrote on 3/26/2024 7:54 PM:
>>> I image most of you have seen the video of the Francis Scott Key
>>> bridge in Baltimore getting hit my a ship. Went down like a kids toy.
>>>
>>>
>>> I never thought much about it in the past, but things happen. One
>>> Sunday night we were going home to CT from Philadelphia. Heavy
>>> traffic on the GW bridge and we were stopped a minute. My daughter
>>> noticed the bridge moving and asked about it. I told here they were
>>> designed to move in high winds and storms, nothing to worry about. We
>>> continued on I95 north. Next morning, I have the news on and hear
>>> the Mianus River Bridge collapsed a bit after we crossed it.
>>>
>>> I don't worry, but I do think about the possibility. I often cross
>>> the Skyway Bridge over Tampa Bay. It is the bridge rebuilt after the
>>> original went down in 1980. What remained has been converted to
>>> fishing piers.
>>
>> It's a matter of time a large ship would hit the pier and take out the
>> supporting truss structure (note that even the legs of the bridge are
>> truss A-frames, not concrete columns) of the truss bridge. They built
>> the bridge so flimsy, for convenience. No "over-engineering" at all. I
>> blame capitalism. Award the project to the company which submits the
>> lowest bid. Brace for more "bare minimum" American engineering come
>> tumbling down. China is building infrastructure all over Africa and
>> South America. Maybe pay China to "Build Back Better" for Uncle Sam.
>>
>>
> I was going to point this out somewhere anyhow, and this seems the right
> spot. they didn't have ships anywhere near this big or heavy when the
> bridge was built. And i don't think anyone foresaw them either.

Yes they did. And they had even heavier tankers then

On Thu, 28 Mar 2024 02:02:27 +1100, micky <NONONOmisc07@fmguy.com> wrote:

> In alt.home.repair, on Wed, 27 Mar 2024 02:53:32 -0400, ? Mighty Wannabe
> ? <@.> wrote:
>
>> Ed P wrote on 3/26/2024 7:54 PM:
>>> I image most of you have seen the video of the Francis Scott Key
>>> bridge in Baltimore getting hit my a ship. Went down like a kids toy.
>>>
>>>
>>> I never thought much about it in the past, but things happen. One
>>> Sunday night we were going home to CT from Philadelphia. Heavy
>>> traffic on the GW bridge and we were stopped a minute. My daughter
>>> noticed the bridge moving and asked about it. I told here they were
>>> designed to move in high winds and storms, nothing to worry about. We
>>> continued on I95 north. Next morning, I have the news on and hear
>>> the Mianus River Bridge collapsed a bit after we crossed it.
>>>
>>> I don't worry, but I do think about the possibility. I often cross
>>> the Skyway Bridge over Tampa Bay. It is the bridge rebuilt after the
>>> original went down in 1980. What remained has been converted to
>>> fishing piers.
>>
>> It's a matter of time a large ship would hit the pier and take out the
>> supporting truss structure (note that even the legs of the bridge are
>> truss A-frames, not concrete columns) of the truss bridge. They built
>> the bridge so flimsy, for convenience. No "over-engineering" at all. I
>> blame capitalism.
>
> Maybe this is a better point to make: I've found people use the word
> capitalism for all kinds of meanings, often related to money, but which
> are not actually capitalism. Free enterprise, free market, market
> system, supply and demand, and there are more even further afield I
> can't think of right now. I hear businesses which require no capital
> referred to as capitalist.
>
> Do you honestly think everything in non-capitalist economies is well
> built?

Clearly Chernobyle and that fucking great ship the russians
can never manage to keep working for long weren't.

> Those built by private builders, or only by the government? Do
> you think all the so-called non-capitalist countries' governments are
> rolling in money they overdesign what they build. Or do they have more
> things to spend money on than they have money to spend, and so they
> often build things just to what they think is a reasonable standard, or
> even less than that. The ugly barren apartment buildings of the Soviet
> Union is one example of "less than that", at least in apparance if not
> structural endurance.
>
> How much could you possible know about construction throughout the
> world?
>
>> Award the project to the company which submits the
>> lowest bid. Brace for more "bare minimum" American engineering come
>> tumbling down. China is building infrastructure all over Africa and
>> South America. Maybe pay China to "Build Back Better" for Uncle Sam.
>>

On 3/28/2024 12:06 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
> On 3/28/2024 12:38 AM, bud-- wrote:
>
>> I believe Buttigieg has said he doesn't know of any bridge that could
>> withstand a similar hit. The energy is huge. Unless the barrier extended
>> far from the piers (to gradually slow) the barrier would put a huge dent
>> in the ship (which requires a less large barrier that won't move,
>> perhaps made of unobtainium). You can't suddenly stop the ship.
>>
>> May be more practical to require tug boats accompany large ships. Lower
>> speeds (was going about 9 mph)?
>>
>> "When an irresistible force such as [a ship] meets an old immovable
>> object like [a bridge]...."
>
>
> Have you ever piloted a boat? At lower speed it may have been more of a
> danger and less maneuverable. The rudder requires motion to make the
> vessel turn. Tides and currents are factors also.
>
> Tug may or may not have helped, depending on timing and staging.

Anyone know if the Dali has horizontal thrusters? Of course, in a total
power failure, they wouldn't work; but having them would assist
maneuverability at lower speeds.

On Wed, 27 Mar 2024 20:57:09 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:

>Fishrrman <Fishrrman2000@yahoo.com> writes:
>>On 3/27/24 1:12 PM, Ed P wrote:
>>> It is going to suck for people that use if for daily commute
>>> and such. It will add quite a bit of time and distance to go
>>> around.  It will take from 5 to 8 years to rebuild.
>>
>>I would advocate that they NOT build another bridge, but
>>instead construct a tunnel.
>
>At twice the cost (or more)?
And ten? times as long to complete??

On Thu, 28 Mar 2024 00:06:16 -0400, Ed Pawlowski <esp@snet.xxx> wrote:

>On 3/28/2024 12:38 AM, bud-- wrote:
>
>> I believe Buttigieg has said he doesn't know of any bridge that could
>> withstand a similar hit. The energy is huge. Unless the barrier extended
>> far from the piers (to gradually slow) the barrier would put a huge dent
>> in the ship (which requires a less large barrier that won't move,
>> perhaps made of unobtainium). You can't suddenly stop the ship.
>>
>> May be more practical to require tug boats accompany large ships. Lower
>> speeds (was going about 9 mph)?
>>
>> "When an irresistible force such as [a ship] meets an old immovable
>> object like [a bridge]...."
>
>
>Have you ever piloted a boat? At lower speed it may have been more of a
>danger and less maneuverable. The rudder requires motion to make the
>vessel turn. Tides and currents are factors also.
>
>Tug may or may not have helped, depending on timing and staging.
Speculation that dropping the anchor actually contributed to the
ship hitting the pillar as the current swung the ship in line with the
current from the anchor point - basically "weathercocking" it right
into the bridge - without dropping the anchorit MAY have made it
through, or it may have sideawiped the pillar - but if they had NOT
dropped the anchor and still hit the bridge the pilots would have
DEFINITELY been found neglegent - so they dropped the anchor.
A ship without power basically has no rudder if it is not moving
faster than the current.

On Wed, 27 Mar 2024 21:53:53 -0400, 😎 Mighty Wannabe ✅ wrote:

> rbowman wrote on 3/27/2024 9:23 PM:
>> On Wed, 27 Mar 2024 12:15:58 -0400, 😎 Mighty Wannabe ✅ wrote:
>>
>>> The red exclamation mark you saw might have meant the road
>>> construction that was going on. Six construction workers who were
>>> pouring concrete on the bridge went down with the bridge.
>> https://www.cbsnews.com/baltimore/news/who-is-missing-in-baltimores-
francis-scott-key-bridge-collapse-what-we-know-about-those-unaccounted-for
>>
>> "The men, who are now presumed dead, are from El Salvador, Guatemala,
>> Honduras and Mexico, and were living in Dundalk and Highlandtown,
>> according to WJZ media partner The Baltimore Banner."
>>
>> Hmmmmm...
>
> What's your point? You think they would have survived the fall and not
> drown after falling from that height if they were white?

Certainly! Didn't you ever watch Superman? I am curious if people filling
potholes at 3AM could produce a green card on demand.

On Wed, 27 Mar 2024 21:45:55 -0400, 😎 Mighty Wannabe ✅ wrote:

> There were no such thing as DEI in 1981 when the condo was built. Ronald
> Reagan was president.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diversity,_equity,_and_inclusion

"DEI policy emerged from Affirmative Action in the United States.[20] The
legal term "affirmative action" was first used in "Executive Order No.
10925",[21] signed by President John F. Kennedy on 6 March 1961, which
included a provision that government contractors "take affirmative action
to ensure that applicants are employed, and employees are treated [fairly]
during employment, without regard to their race, creed, color, or national
origin".[22] It was used to promote actions that achieve non-
discrimination. In September 1965, President Lyndon Johnson issued
Executive Order 11246 which required government employers to "hire without
regard to race, religion and national origin" and "take affirmative action
to ensure that applicants are employed and that employees are treated
during employment, without regard to their race, color, religion, sex or
national origin."[23] The Civil Rights Act of 1964 prohibited
discrimination on the basis of race, color, religion, sex or national
origin. Neither executive order nor The Civil Rights Act authorized group
preferences. The Senate floor manager of the bill, Senator Hubert
Humphrey, declared that the bill “would prohibit preferential treatment
for any particular group” adding “I will eat my hat if this leads to
racial quotas.” [24] However affirmative action in practice would
eventually become synonymous with preferences, goals and quotas as upheld
or struck down by Supreme Court decisions even though no law had been
passed explicitly permitting discrimination in favor of disadvantaged
groups. Some state laws explicitly banned racial preferences, and in
response some laws have failed attempting to explicitly legalize race
preferences."

Lipstick on a fucking pig...

rbowman wrote on 3/28/2024 4:53 PM:
> On Wed, 27 Mar 2024 21:45:55 -0400, 😎 Mighty Wannabe ✅ wrote:
>
>> There were no such thing as DEI in 1981 when the condo was built. Ronald
>> Reagan was president.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diversity,_equity,_and_inclusion
>
> "DEI policy emerged from Affirmative Action in the United States.[20] The
> legal term "affirmative action" was first used in "Executive Order No.
> 10925",[21] signed by President John F. Kennedy on 6 March 1961, which
> included a provision that government contractors "take affirmative action
> to ensure that applicants are employed, and employees are treated [fairly]
> during employment, without regard to their race, creed, color, or national
> origin".[22] It was used to promote actions that achieve non-
> discrimination. In September 1965, President Lyndon Johnson issued
> Executive Order 11246 which required government employers to "hire without
> regard to race, religion and national origin" and "take affirmative action
> to ensure that applicants are employed and that employees are treated
> during employment, without regard to their race, color, religion, sex or
> national origin."[23] The Civil Rights Act of 1964 prohibited
> discrimination on the basis of race, color, religion, sex or national
> origin. Neither executive order nor The Civil Rights Act authorized group
> preferences.

Basically those laws were for anti-discrimination against hiring women
and blacks, but there were hardly any woman and black that was available
to fill the jobs that require higher education and skills.

Although I am not American, our Canadian laws closely keep pace with our
American counterpart. I remember even in the 1980s women and blacks
couldn't pass easily in math and science, so the university changed the
achievement evaluation system into "percentile" grading, meaning that
they would take the average test results of all the students in the
course, and you would pass if you were not near the bottom of the class.
The result is that even if all the students were stupid, there would
still be students who would get A's and B's in their course.

I remember there were only 5 females in a class of more than 100
students in my engineering course in early 1980s.

And then there were enough female graduating from higher education to
start making inroads into traditionally high-pay male jobs. I wonder if
you remember the grumbling about women taking men's jobs in late 1980s.
I remember snide remarks like "she must have a pens!".

The above is mainly about the "Equity" part.

Now let me look at the "Inclusion" part. Even Obama was telling the gay
soldiers "Don't show. Don't tell".

My conclusion is that "Inclusion" is a relatively new phenomenon.

The chronological order is "Equity" first. Female is 50% of the
population. Women started barging into men's good-job market in the late
1980s. And then the "Diversity" came through. The blacks started showing
up in good jobs. The "Inclusion" part is after Obama's tenure.

> The Senate floor manager of the bill, Senator Hubert
> Humphrey, declared that the bill “would prohibit preferential treatment
> for any particular group” adding “I will eat my hat if this leads to
> racial quotas.” [24] However affirmative action in practice would
> eventually become synonymous with preferences, goals and quotas as upheld
> or struck down by Supreme Court decisions even though no law had been
> passed explicitly permitting discrimination in favor of disadvantaged
> groups. Some state laws explicitly banned racial preferences, and in
> response some laws have failed attempting to explicitly legalize race
> preferences."
>
> Lipstick on a fucking pig...

On 3/28/24 8:30 AM, Retirednoguilt wrote:
> Anyone know if the Dali has horizontal thrusters?

It does have them, but apparently with the loss of power
they were unavailable in "the moment of need"...

On 3/28/2024 6:39 PM, Fishrrman wrote:
> On 3/28/24 8:30 AM, Retirednoguilt wrote:
>> Anyone know if the Dali has horizontal thrusters?
>
> It does have them, but apparently with the loss of power they were
> unavailable in "the moment of need"...

I'm a bit surprised by that. Sure, loss of power by the main engine is
a problem, but I'd have thought there would be a secondary source for
things like rudder or even thrusters.

Just like manufacturing plants. We always had two boilers, two
compressors, etc. Rare we ever had to 100% stop, aside from a flood and
a fire.

On 3/28/2024 4:35 PM, Ed P wrote:
> On 3/28/2024 6:39 PM, Fishrrman wrote:
>> On 3/28/24 8:30 AM, Retirednoguilt wrote:
>>> Anyone know if the Dali has horizontal thrusters?
>>
>> It does have them, but apparently with the loss of power they were
>> unavailable in "the moment of need"...
>
>
> I'm a bit surprised by that.  Sure, loss of power by the main engine is
> a problem, but I'd have thought there would be a secondary source for
> things like rudder or even thrusters.
>
> Just like manufacturing plants.  We always had two boilers, two
> compressors, etc.  Rare we ever had to 100% stop, aside from a flood and
> a fire.

Word was they "lost all power".

On Thu, 28 Mar 2024 18:30:20 -0400, 😎 Mighty Wannabe ✅ wrote:

> I remember there were only 5 females in a class of more than 100
> students in my engineering course in early 1980s.

We had more than that in the '60s. RPI had been traditionally male and I
don't know when they started accepting co-eds but they were there. In fact
the class valedictorian was a woman. At the time they were domiciled at
what was a traditional women's college downtown which was a trek in the
winter.

They were not all US women either; one of my physics TAs was Indian. If
you had the ability you were accepted. I only recall one black student and
iirc he was from Nigeria.

Then, as now, some of the hires were tokens. That really sucked for the
truly competent to carry the suspicion they were only token hires.

That was "Don't ask, don't tell." I don't have a problem with a modified
version of that. I've hired gays, worked with gays, and have had relatives
that were gay. None of them were "Look at me! I'm QUEER! I'm SPECIAL!" You
might infer it like when a new cubicle mate put up a Playboy calendar.
(management made her take it down. I certainly didn't mind.)

On 3/28/2024 7:40 PM, Bob F wrote:
> On 3/28/2024 4:35 PM, Ed P wrote:
>> On 3/28/2024 6:39 PM, Fishrrman wrote:
>>> On 3/28/24 8:30 AM, Retirednoguilt wrote:
>>>> Anyone know if the Dali has horizontal thrusters?
>>>
>>> It does have them, but apparently with the loss of power they were
>>> unavailable in "the moment of need"...
>>
>>
>> I'm a bit surprised by that.  Sure, loss of power by the main engine
>> is a problem, but I'd have thought there would be a secondary source
>> for things like rudder or even thrusters.
>>
>> Just like manufacturing plants.  We always had two boilers, two
>> compressors, etc.  Rare we ever had to 100% stop, aside from a flood
>> and a fire.
>
> Word was they "lost all power".
>

Correct, that is my point. That should not be able to happen. IMO, it
is a design flaw to not have at lease some redundancy. If the engine in
your car fails, you can still steer and brake, though it may take more
effort.

On Tue, 26 Mar 2024 20:13:33 -0400, hubops@ccanoemail.com wrote:

>On Tue, 26 Mar 2024 19:54:21 -0400, Ed P <esp@snet.xxx> wrote:
>
>>I image most of you have seen the video of the Francis Scott Key bridge
>>in Baltimore getting hit my a ship. Went down like a kids toy.
>>
>>
>>I never thought much about it in the past, but things happen. One
>>Sunday night we were going home to CT from Philadelphia. Heavy traffic
>>on the GW bridge and we were stopped a minute. My daughter noticed the
>>bridge moving and asked about it. I told here they were designed to
>>move in high winds and storms, nothing to worry about. We continued on
>>I95 north. Next morning, I have the news on and hear the Mianus River
>>Bridge collapsed a bit after we crossed it.
>>
>>I don't worry, but I do think about the possibility. I often cross the
>>Skyway Bridge over Tampa Bay. It is the bridge rebuilt after the
>>original went down in 1980. What remained has been converted to fishing
>>piers.
>
>
>I don't understand Sleepy Joe's quick statement about paying for
>the repairs - the ship's insurance should be paying 100 %.
> John T.
Somebidy needs to pay for iot while the insurance claim wirks it's way
through the courts for the next 10 years

On Tue, 26 Mar 2024 23:00:09 -0400, Ed P <esp@snet.xxx> wrote:

>On 3/26/2024 8:13 PM, hubops@ccanoemail.com wrote:
>> On Tue, 26 Mar 2024 19:54:21 -0400, Ed P <esp@snet.xxx> wrote:
>>
>>> I image most of you have seen the video of the Francis Scott Key bridge
>>> in Baltimore getting hit my a ship. Went down like a kids toy.
>>>
>>>
>>> I never thought much about it in the past, but things happen. One
>>> Sunday night we were going home to CT from Philadelphia. Heavy traffic
>>> on the GW bridge and we were stopped a minute. My daughter noticed the
>>> bridge moving and asked about it. I told here they were designed to
>>> move in high winds and storms, nothing to worry about. We continued on
>>> I95 north. Next morning, I have the news on and hear the Mianus River
>>> Bridge collapsed a bit after we crossed it.
>>>
>>> I don't worry, but I do think about the possibility. I often cross the
>>> Skyway Bridge over Tampa Bay. It is the bridge rebuilt after the
>>> original went down in 1980. What remained has been converted to fishing
>>> piers.
>>
>>
>> I don't understand Sleepy Joe's quick statement about paying for
>> the repairs - the ship's insurance should be paying 100 %.
>> John T.
>
>Perhaps that should be clarified. Do you think the insurance company
>will be sending a check this week? Will it cover 100% of the cost to
>replace? Should we wait for the check to get started or start tomorrow
>with government funds?
>
>https://tinyurl.com/m62pwrvk
>
>While the accident will generate a complex web of claims and liability
>that may take years to untangle, the financial fallout is expected to
>fall heavily on the reinsurance industry.
>
>"No doubt both marine insurers and reinsurers will be involved with this
>loss," said Loretta Worters, a spokesperson for the Insurance
>Information Institute.
100%. add that to the floods , storms and wildfires and without the
re-insurers many insurance providers would be wiped out. You KNOW your
(and my) insurance rates - for ALL INSURANCE - will be going through
the roof

On Wed, 27 Mar 2024 10:49:58 -0400, micky <NONONOmisc07@fmguy.com>
wrote:

>In alt.home.repair, on Wed, 27 Mar 2024 10:27:25 -0400, Retirednoguilt
><HapilyRetired@fakeaddress.com> wrote:
>
>>On 3/26/2024 7:54 PM, Ed P wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> I never thought much about it in the past, but things happen. One
>>> Sunday night we were going home to CT from Philadelphia. Heavy traffic
>>> on the GW bridge and we were stopped a minute. My daughter noticed the
>>> bridge moving and asked about it. I told here they were designed to
>>> move in high winds and storms, nothing to worry about. We continued on
>>> I95 north. Next morning, I have the news on and hear the Mianus River
>>> Bridge collapsed a bit after we crossed it.
>>>
>>
>>Many of us have had close calls. I'm an extremely punctual person, to
>>the point of usually being somewhat early. Only once in my life did I
>>ever miss an airplane flight. I was a high school student visiting an
>>out of town college to be interviewed and also to try to decide if I
>>wanted to apply. There were accidents on the road ahead during the cab
>>ride from my home to the airport and we were in stop and go traffic for
>>almost an hour. I missed the plane - which crashed with no survivors
>>during the flight that I missed. Life is just a series of serendipitous
>>happenings.
>
>That *is* close.
>
>Around 1986, I was on a business trip to Montreal, and in the basement
>of the trainstation connected to the hotel were lockers for travelers to
>use, and I was going to stay serveral hours after I had to check out of
>the hotel - but they were still going to let me use one of their
>bicycles.
>
>I went to the lockers the first day to see if they were really
>available, then again 3 days later to put my stuff in one, and several
>hours later to get my stuff. It was either the next day at the same
>clock time I had been there, or 7 days later at that time, that Quuebec
>terrorists blew up the lockers, and killed people and injured more. Not
>as close as your near miss but it's too close for me.

Back in '72 or '73 a car bomb blew up outside the Livingstone
(Zambis) post office less than half an hour after I walked by

On Wed, 27 Mar 2024 11:02:27 -0400, micky <NONONOmisc07@fmguy.com>
wrote:

>In alt.home.repair, on Wed, 27 Mar 2024 02:53:32 -0400, ? Mighty Wannabe
>? <@.> wrote:
>
>>Ed P wrote on 3/26/2024 7:54 PM:
>>> I image most of you have seen the video of the Francis Scott Key
>>> bridge in Baltimore getting hit my a ship.  Went down like a kids toy.
>>>
>>>
>>> I never thought much about it in the past, but things happen.  One
>>> Sunday night we were going home to CT from Philadelphia.  Heavy
>>> traffic on the GW bridge and we were stopped a minute.  My daughter
>>> noticed the bridge moving and asked about it.  I told here they were
>>> designed to move in high winds and storms, nothing to worry about.  
>>> We continued on I95 north.  Next morning, I have the news on and hear
>>> the Mianus River Bridge collapsed a bit after we crossed it.
>>>
>>> I don't worry, but I do think about the possibility.  I often cross
>>> the Skyway Bridge over Tampa Bay.  It is the bridge rebuilt after the
>>> original went down in 1980.  What remained has been converted to
>>> fishing piers.
>>
>>It's a matter of time a large ship would hit the pier and take out the
>>supporting truss structure (note that even the legs of the bridge are
>>truss A-frames, not concrete columns) of the truss bridge. They built
>>the bridge so flimsy, for convenience. No "over-engineering" at all. I
>>blame capitalism.
>
>Maybe this is a better point to make: I've found people use the word
>capitalism for all kinds of meanings, often related to money, but which
>are not actually capitalism. Free enterprise, free market, market
>system, supply and demand, and there are more even further afield I
>can't think of right now. I hear businesses which require no capital
>referred to as capitalist.
>
>Do you honestly think everything in non-capitalist economies is well
>built? Those built by private builders, or only by the government? Do
>you think all the so-called non-capitalist countries' governments are
>rolling in money they overdesign what they build. Or do they have more
>things to spend money on than they have money to spend, and so they
>often build things just to what they think is a reasonable standard, or
>even less than that. The ugly barren apartment buildings of the Soviet
>Union is one example of "less than that", at least in apparance if not
>structural endurance.
>
>How much could you possible know about construction throughout the
>world?

All the low strength concrete (watered down to pay the gradt to
government inspectors) and missing re-bar (for the same reason) in
non-"capitalist" counties around the world that show up when a medium
strength earthquake hits show how shoddy a LOT of this so-called
"infrastructure" is - and the Zam-Tam railway from Dar-Es Salam to
Zambia is a good case in point about Chinese crap construction in
Africa.
It has been an unmitigated disaster from the first day it ran.
>
>> Award the project to the company which submits the
>>lowest bid. Brace for more "bare minimum" American engineering come
>>tumbling down. China is building infrastructure all over Africa and
>>South America. Maybe pay China to "Build Back Better" for Uncle Sam.
>>
>>

On Wed, 27 Mar 2024 14:03:09 -0400, Retirednoguilt
<HapilyRetired@fakeaddress.com> wrote:

>On 3/27/2024 1:36 PM, ? Mighty Wannabe ? wrote:
>> Ed P wrote on 3/27/2024 1:12 PM:
>>> On 3/27/2024 11:09 AM, micky wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> I have to go to New Jersey tomorrow, and at 10 PM last night google maps
>>>> was still showing me the Key Bridge as one possible route.
>>>>
>>>> But now it has a red exclamation mark and says it was updated 17 hours
>>>> ago.  That would be 6 PM yesterday but I'm sure it was 8, 9, or even 10
>>>> when it was still routing me across the bridge.
>>>
>>>
>>> When I pass around Baltimore going to NJ it takes me I95 through the
>>> tunnel so I never saw that bridge.
>>>
>>> It is going to suck for people that use if for daily commute and such.
>>> It will add quite a bit of time and distance to go around. It will
>>> take from 5 to 8 years to rebuild.
>>
>>
>> You can probably pay China to build it in just one year. Look at all
>> those artificial islands China built out of coral reefs in the middle of
>> South China Sea in no time flat, including airports, runways, hangars,
>> piers, and concrete buildings. China has all those dredgers, barges, and
>> concrete mixers ready to go. Just ask them for a quote.
>>
>>
>>
>
>The river is relatively narrow compared to the South China Sea and has
>tidal and rip currents. The bottom is covered with a thick layer of
>silt. Construction also has to contend with a high volume of ships
>going to and from the Baltimore Port that will need to transit the
>construction zone. That's a completely different construction
>environment than the Chinese had to deal with. Also, construction costs
>in China are negligible. They enslave a work force and pay them nothing
>or next to nothing, work them long hours with minimal time off, and only
>have the expenses of materials and lousy food and shelter for the
>slaves. You're comparing apples and oranges.
Not to mention using their bodies as grease or fill when they die.
Human life has NO VALUE to the Chinese contractirs

On Wed, 27 Mar 2024 16:16:23 -0400, Fishrrman
<Fishrrman2000@yahoo.com> wrote:

>On 3/27/24 1:12 PM, Ed P wrote:
>> It is going to suck for people that use if for daily commute
>> and such. It will add quite a bit of time and distance to go
>> around.  It will take from 5 to 8 years to rebuild.
>
>I would advocate that they NOT build another bridge, but
>instead construct a tunnel.
>
>I realize the bridge had served as a route for hazardous
>trucks that couldn't use the existing tunnels. So be it.
>
>For them, I would recommend that they also get a small fleet
>of specialized boats.
>You know... they used to have them everywhere.
>Called... "ferries".
>
>Again, only for those vehicles that would be banned from the
>tunnel.
You are advocating regular cross traffic in a heavilly travelled
waterway??? - carrying HazMat?? Gee - you ARE dummer than you look!

In article <660613b5$3$1258331$882e4bbb@reader.netnews.com>,
esp@snet.xxx says...
>
> Correct, that is my point. That should not be able to happen. IMO, it
> is a design flaw to not have at lease some redundancy. If the engine in
> your car fails, you can still steer and brake, though it may take more
> effort.
>
>

I do not know about the ships but some airplanes are 'fly by wire' and
if something hapens to the computer or wire links there is no direct
control for them.

Do the all electric cars still have mechanical breaks or do they have
some electrical breaking system where a fuse blowes or a wire comes
loose can they stop?

On 3/28/2024 7:04 PM, Ed P wrote:
> On 3/28/2024 7:40 PM, Bob F wrote:
>> On 3/28/2024 4:35 PM, Ed P wrote:
>>> On 3/28/2024 6:39 PM, Fishrrman wrote:
>>>> On 3/28/24 8:30 AM, Retirednoguilt wrote:
>>>>> Anyone know if the Dali has horizontal thrusters?
>>>>
>>>> It does have them, but apparently with the loss of power they were
>>>> unavailable in "the moment of need"...
>>>
>>>
>>> I'm a bit surprised by that.  Sure, loss of power by the main engine
>>> is a problem, but I'd have thought there would be a secondary source
>>> for things like rudder or even thrusters.
>>>
>>> Just like manufacturing plants.  We always had two boilers, two
>>> compressors, etc.  Rare we ever had to 100% stop, aside from a flood
>>> and a fire.
>>
>> Word was they "lost all power".
>>
>
> Correct, that is my point.  That should not be able to happen.  IMO, it
> is a design flaw to not have at lease some redundancy.  If the engine in
> your car fails, you can still steer and brake, though it may take more
> effort.

Car steering and braking take very little power. Rudder on a ship might
be manageable. Thrusters actually require power.

Further speculation without many facts (but this is the internet) - one
report showed black smoke coming out of the ship stack and guessed that
an alternate power source was started, just before the collision. (They
also called for tugs.) With a little more lead time that may have
avoided collision? Should they/can they run aux power in harbor? How
often would that help worldwide in the last 10 years?

The ship is reported to be on the river bottom and needs to be
"refloated". It is on the bottom because of the bridge on the bow.
Bottoming may be what stopped the ship. "Refloating" presumably means
removing the bridge.

(But all ships have a bridge.)