"The abandonment of Afghanistan, a democratic state, to its fate under the rule of a terrorist organization reveals some hard truths about Biden’s stated democracy and human rights agenda. Afghanistan is the latest and most troubling sign there is a lot more bark to Biden’s democratic bite.

The Biden administration is pointing to the lightning speed collapse of the Afghan army over the past few weeks as evidence of the brilliance behind Biden’s decision to withdraw. In large part, Afghan forces melted away because the glue holding the Afghan army together—the logistical and psychological U.S. system of support they were dependent on—was taken away wholesale. At that point, the endgame was clear.

But ultimately, the Taliban were able to take over so easily because Afghans were unwilling to die in the name of a corrupt president and incompetent government they didn’t support. That was the contingency the Biden administration evidently didn’t consider, though the signs had been blinking red for months.
....
Biden was repeating mistakes former U.S. President Donald Trump—and the two U.S. presidents before him—made, which was to prop up a corrupt government that never earned the Afghan people’s trust. Just like they did in Iraq, Americans convinced themselves their enormous military footprint and blank checkbook would be enough for Afghanistan to stand on its own feet without dealing with the systemic problems of weak governance.

But unlike his predecessors, Biden came to office promising to stand up for U.S. values of democracy and human rights. He has spoken eloquently about the need for the world’s democracies to rally against tyranny and outcompete authoritarian governments.
....
Today, Russia and China are celebrating the U.S. defeat and are on the verge of recognizing the Taliban as the legitimate government. They will undoubtedly be among the group’s biggest backers, fill the vacuum the United States left behind, and point to the resulting damage in the United States’ standing as evidence that democracies cannot, in Biden’s words, “deliver.”

This is why it’s hard to square Biden’s proclamations about human rights and democracy promotion with his approach to Afghanistan. As a presidential candidate last year, Biden was asked whether the United States had a responsibility to Afghan women and girls in light of a possible Taliban takeover. “No, I don’t!” Biden said. “Zero responsibility.”
....
“There was a lot of promise, a lot of assurance,” a journalist in Afghanistan wrote in an essay for Politico under the condition of anonymity to protect his security. “A lot of talk about values, a lot of talk about progress, about rights, about women’s rights, about freedom, about democracy. That all turned out to be hollow. Had I known that this commitment was temporary, I wouldn’t have risked my life.”"

https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/08/17/afghanistan-withdrawal-biden-democracy-agenda-human-rights-evacuation/

ltlee1 <ltlee1@hotmail.com> wrote:
> "The abandonment of Afghanistan, a democratic state, to its fate under
> the rule of a terrorist organization reveals some hard truths about
> Biden’s stated democracy and human rights agenda. Afghanistan is the
> latest and most troubling sign there is a lot more bark to Biden’s
> democratic bite.
> […]
> https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/08/17/afghanistan-withdrawal-biden-democracy-agenda-human-rights-evacuation/

What is worth democracy without the people ready *and willing* to
defender it? "Little" in the world as it is.

IMHO from this newsgroup perspective it boils down to: US created
a *shitty* democracy/"democracy" in Afghanistan, something Afghans
themselves have not been eager to *really* defend.

Wisdom from the most democratic (non tiny) country in the world IMHO:
"There isn’t any army in Switzerland; Switzerland is an army itself”.
Mao paraphrased: Political power grows out of the barrel of a military
gun *kept at home*.

--
A. Filip : Big Tech Brother is watching you.
| Worst Month of 1981 for Downhill Skiing: August. The lift
| lines are the shortest, though. (Steve Rubenstein)

On Wednesday, August 18, 2021 at 11:32:53 AM UTC-7, A. Filip wrote:
> ltlee1 <ltl...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > "The abandonment of Afghanistan, a democratic state, to its fate under
> > the rule of a terrorist organization reveals some hard truths about
> > Biden’s stated democracy and human rights agenda. Afghanistan is the
> > latest and most troubling sign there is a lot more bark to Biden’s
> > democratic bite.
> > […]
> > https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/08/17/afghanistan-withdrawal-biden-democracy-agenda-human-rights-evacuation/
>
> What is worth democracy without the people ready *and willing* to
> defender it? "Little" in the world as it is.
>
> IMHO from this newsgroup perspective it boils down to: US created
> a *shitty* democracy/"democracy" in Afghanistan, something Afghans
> themselves have not been eager to *really* defend.
>
> Wisdom from the most democratic (non tiny) country in the world IMHO:
> "There isn’t any army in Switzerland; Switzerland is an army itself”.
> Mao paraphrased: Political power grows out of the barrel of a military
> gun *kept at home*.

What is "democracy" to the Muslim people? If they understand what "democracy" is, they wouldn't be Muslims!!! Muslim belief and democracy are mutually exclusive.

>
> --
> A. Filip : Big Tech Brother is watching you.
> | Worst Month of 1981 for Downhill Skiing: August. The lift
> | lines are the shortest, though. (Steve Rubenstein)

On Wednesday, August 18, 2021 at 2:32:53 PM UTC-4, A. Filip wrote:
> ltlee1 <ltl... wrote:
> > "The abandonment of Afghanistan, a democratic state, to its fate under
> > the rule of a terrorist organization reveals some hard truths about
> > Biden’s stated democracy and human rights agenda. Afghanistan is the
> > latest and most troubling sign there is a lot more bark to Biden’s
> > democratic bite.
> > […]
> > https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/08/17/afghanistan-withdrawal-biden-democracy-agenda-human-rights-evacuation/
>
> What is worth democracy without the people ready *and willing* to
> defender it? "Little" in the world as it is.
>
> IMHO from this newsgroup perspective it boils down to: US created
> a *shitty* democracy/"democracy" in Afghanistan, something Afghans
> themselves have not been eager to *really* defend.
>
> Wisdom from the most democratic (non tiny) country in the world IMHO:
> "There isn’t any army in Switzerland; Switzerland is an army itself”.
> Mao paraphrased: Political power grows out of the barrel of a military
> gun *kept at home*.

It is obvious that the ForeignPolicy.com writer Elise Labott believes Biden and his
democracy agenda on US foreign policy until Biden gave up on Afghanistan. Do
you have information on Biden showing he was not sincere concerning his
democracy agenda.

Concerning Afghans not will to defend the current government, is willingness to defend
under all circumstances an inalienable part of democracy in the West? More important,
who is to decide which democracy is shitty? Ane which democracy is at present perfect
in every way.

>
> --
> A. Filip : Big Tech Brother is watching you.
> | Worst Month of 1981 for Downhill Skiing: August. The lift
> | lines are the shortest, though. (Steve Rubenstein)

Rusty Wyse <yale.mar@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wednesday, August 18, 2021 at 11:32:53 AM UTC-7, A. Filip wrote:
>> ltlee1 <ltl...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> > "The abandonment of Afghanistan, a democratic state, to its fate under
>> > the rule of a terrorist organization reveals some hard truths about
>> > Biden’s stated democracy and human rights agenda. Afghanistan is the
>> > latest and most troubling sign there is a lot more bark to Biden’s
>> > democratic bite.
>> > […]
>> > https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/08/17/afghanistan-withdrawal-biden-democracy-agenda-human-rights-evacuation/
>>
>> What is worth democracy without the people ready *and willing* to
>> defender it? "Little" in the world as it is.
>>
>> IMHO from this newsgroup perspective it boils down to: US created
>> a *shitty* democracy/"democracy" in Afghanistan, something Afghans
>> themselves have not been eager to *really* defend.
>>
>> Wisdom from the most democratic (non tiny) country in the world IMHO:
>> "There isn’t any army in Switzerland; Switzerland is an army itself”.
>> Mao paraphrased: Political power grows out of the barrel of a military
>> gun *kept at home*.
>
> What is "democracy" to the Muslim people? If they understand what
> "democracy" is, they wouldn't be Muslims!!! Muslim belief and
> democracy are mutually exclusive.

US and support for democracy "in Egypt" are really exclusive.
*Real* democracy may produce results disliked by US. Despots are
much simpler to maintain.

Shift from Monarchies to republics happened in Europe a mere century ago
(after World War One). I do believe that a few decades can change a lot.

Democracy ruled in HK *Colony*, British democracy.

--
A. Filip : Big Tech Brother is watching you.
| If all the world's a stage, I want to operate the trap door.
| (Paul Beatty)

On Wednesday, August 18, 2021 at 11:05:38 AM UTC-7, ltlee1 wrote:
> "The abandonment of Afghanistan, a democratic state,

When and how did this happen? As long as the people are Muslim, it can never be a "democratic state"!!!

> to its fate under the rule of a terrorist organization reveals some hard truths about Biden’s stated democracy and human rights agenda. Afghanistan is the latest and most troubling sign there is a lot more bark to Biden’s democratic bite.

No!!! There was never any "democratic bite". The U.S. is only fooling itself. Muslim countries can never be democratic.

>
> The Biden administration is pointing to the lightning speed collapse of the Afghan army over the past few weeks as evidence of the brilliance behind Biden’s decision to withdraw. In large part, Afghan forces melted away because the glue holding the Afghan army together—the logistical and psychological U.S. system of support they were dependent on—was taken away wholesale. At that point, the endgame was clear.
>
> But ultimately, the Taliban were able to take over so easily because Afghans were unwilling to die in the name of a corrupt president and incompetent government they didn’t support. That was the contingency the Biden administration evidently didn’t consider, though the signs had been blinking red for months.
> ...
> Biden was repeating mistakes former U.S. President Donald Trump—and the two U.S. presidents before him—made, which was to prop up a corrupt government that never earned the Afghan people’s trust. Just like they did in Iraq, Americans convinced themselves their enormous military footprint and blank checkbook would be enough for Afghanistan to stand on its own feet without dealing with the systemic problems of weak governance.
>
> But unlike his predecessors, Biden came to office promising to stand up for U.S. values of democracy and human rights.

"U.S. values of democracy and human rights." Hummm!!! Do we really, really have "U.S. values of democracy and human rights" at home??? Talk to many Black and Mexican Americans, and even
Asian Americans. Back in the 1930s-1940s, former California governor Earl Warren had a talkative limousine driver who constantly talked about how hard it is to live in America as a Black person.

> He has spoken eloquently about the need for the world’s democracies to rally against tyranny and outcompete authoritarian governments.

Solve your own problems at home first before trying to solve the problems around the world...

> ...
> Today, Russia and China are celebrating the U.S. defeat and are on the verge of recognizing the Taliban as the legitimate government. They will undoubtedly be among the group’s biggest backers, fill the vacuum the United States left behind, and point to the resulting damage in the United States’ standing as evidence that democracies cannot, in Biden’s words, “deliver.”
>
> This is why it’s hard to square Biden’s proclamations about human rights and democracy promotion with his approach to Afghanistan. As a presidential candidate last year, Biden was asked whether the United States had a responsibility to Afghan women and girls in light of a possible Taliban takeover. “No, I don’t!” Biden said. “Zero responsibility.”
> ...
> “There was a lot of promise, a lot of assurance,” a journalist in Afghanistan wrote in an essay for Politico under the condition of anonymity to protect his security. “A lot of talk about values, a lot of talk about progress, about rights, about women’s rights, about freedom, about democracy. That all turned out to be hollow. Had I known that this commitment was temporary, I wouldn’t have risked my life.”"
>
> https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/08/17/afghanistan-withdrawal-biden-democracy-agenda-human-rights-evacuation/

On Wednesday, August 18, 2021 at 2:56:50 PM UTC-7, A. Filip wrote:
> Rusty Wyse <yale...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Wednesday, August 18, 2021 at 11:32:53 AM UTC-7, A. Filip wrote:
> >> ltlee1 <ltl...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >> > "The abandonment of Afghanistan, a democratic state, to its fate under
> >> > the rule of a terrorist organization reveals some hard truths about
> >> > Biden’s stated democracy and human rights agenda. Afghanistan is the
> >> > latest and most troubling sign there is a lot more bark to Biden’s
> >> > democratic bite.
> >> > […]
> >> > https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/08/17/afghanistan-withdrawal-biden-democracy-agenda-human-rights-evacuation/
> >>
> >> What is worth democracy without the people ready *and willing* to
> >> defender it? "Little" in the world as it is.
> >>
> >> IMHO from this newsgroup perspective it boils down to: US created
> >> a *shitty* democracy/"democracy" in Afghanistan, something Afghans
> >> themselves have not been eager to *really* defend.
> >>
> >> Wisdom from the most democratic (non tiny) country in the world IMHO:
> >> "There isn’t any army in Switzerland; Switzerland is an army itself”.
> >> Mao paraphrased: Political power grows out of the barrel of a military
> >> gun *kept at home*.
> >
> > What is "democracy" to the Muslim people? If they understand what
> > "democracy" is, they wouldn't be Muslims!!! Muslim belief and
> > democracy are mutually exclusive.
> US and support for democracy "in Egypt" are really exclusive.
> *Real* democracy may produce results disliked by US. Despots are
> much simpler to maintain.
>
> Shift from Monarchies to republics happened in Europe a mere century ago
> (after World War One). I do believe that a few decades can change a lot.
>
> Democracy ruled in HK *Colony*, British democracy.

What you really meant is:

British ruled HK "colony" with British Iron-fist!!!
The Hong Kong people were just ant-workers...

> --
> A. Filip : Big Tech Brother is watching you.
> | If all the world's a stage, I want to operate the trap door.
> | (Paul Beatty)

On Wednesday, August 18, 2021 at 2:44:02 PM UTC-7, ltlee1 wrote:
> On Wednesday, August 18, 2021 at 2:32:53 PM UTC-4, A. Filip wrote:
> > ltlee1 <ltl... wrote:
> > > "The abandonment of Afghanistan, a democratic state, to its fate under
> > > the rule of a terrorist organization reveals some hard truths about
> > > Biden’s stated democracy and human rights agenda. Afghanistan is the
> > > latest and most troubling sign there is a lot more bark to Biden’s
> > > democratic bite.
> > > […]
> > > https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/08/17/afghanistan-withdrawal-biden-democracy-agenda-human-rights-evacuation/
> >
> > What is worth democracy without the people ready *and willing* to
> > defender it? "Little" in the world as it is.
> >
> > IMHO from this newsgroup perspective it boils down to: US created
> > a *shitty* democracy/"democracy" in Afghanistan, something Afghans
> > themselves have not been eager to *really* defend.
> >
> > Wisdom from the most democratic (non tiny) country in the world IMHO:
> > "There isn’t any army in Switzerland; Switzerland is an army itself”.
> > Mao paraphrased: Political power grows out of the barrel of a military
> > gun *kept at home*.
> It is obvious that the ForeignPolicy.com writer Elise Labott believes Biden and his
> democracy agenda on US foreign policy until Biden gave up on Afghanistan. Do
> you have information on Biden showing he was not sincere concerning his
> democracy agenda.
>
> Concerning Afghans not will to defend the current government, is willingness to defend
> under all circumstances an inalienable part of democracy in the West? More important,
> who is to decide which democracy is shitty? Ane which democracy is at present perfect
> in every way.

Let's talk truth. No one commenting here would want the Taliban running their show. They would be scared shitless.

Gee whiz, LT. You continue to defend things in places you would never live.

bmoore <bmoore@nyx.net> wrote:
> On Wednesday, August 18, 2021 at 2:44:02 PM UTC-7, ltlee1 wrote:
>> On Wednesday, August 18, 2021 at 2:32:53 PM UTC-4, A. Filip wrote:
>> > ltlee1 <ltl... wrote:
>> > > "The abandonment of Afghanistan, a democratic state, to its fate under
>> > > the rule of a terrorist organization reveals some hard truths about
>> > > Biden’s stated democracy and human rights agenda. Afghanistan is the
>> > > latest and most troubling sign there is a lot more bark to Biden’s
>> > > democratic bite.
>> > > […]
>> > > https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/08/17/afghanistan-withdrawal-biden-democracy-agenda-human-rights-evacuation/
>> >
>> > What is worth democracy without the people ready *and willing* to
>> > defender it? "Little" in the world as it is.
>> >
>> > IMHO from this newsgroup perspective it boils down to: US created
>> > a *shitty* democracy/"democracy" in Afghanistan, something Afghans
>> > themselves have not been eager to *really* defend.
>> >
>> > Wisdom from the most democratic (non tiny) country in the world IMHO:
>> > "There isn’t any army in Switzerland; Switzerland is an army itself”.
>> > Mao paraphrased: Political power grows out of the barrel of a military
>> > gun *kept at home*.
>> It is obvious that the ForeignPolicy.com writer Elise Labott believes Biden and his
>> democracy agenda on US foreign policy until Biden gave up on Afghanistan. Do
>> you have information on Biden showing he was not sincere concerning his
>> democracy agenda.
>>
>> Concerning Afghans not will to defend the current government, is willingness to defend
>> under all circumstances an inalienable part of democracy in the West? More important,
>> who is to decide which democracy is shitty? Ane which democracy is at present perfect
>> in every way.
>
> Let's talk truth. No one commenting here would want the Taliban
> running their show. They would be scared shitless.
>
> Gee whiz, LT. You continue to defend things in places you would never live.

So what? Who commenting here is ready to fight Taliban *himself* ?

--
A. Filip : Big Tech Brother is watching you.
| You tread upon my patience. (William Shakespeare, "Henry IV")

ltlee1 <ltlee1@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On Wednesday, August 18, 2021 at 2:32:53 PM UTC-4, A. Filip wrote:
>> ltlee1 <ltl... wrote:
>> > "The abandonment of Afghanistan, a democratic state, to its fate under
>> > the rule of a terrorist organization reveals some hard truths about
>> > Biden’s stated democracy and human rights agenda. Afghanistan is the
>> > latest and most troubling sign there is a lot more bark to Biden’s
>> > democratic bite.
>> > […]
>> > https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/08/17/afghanistan-withdrawal-biden-democracy-agenda-human-rights-evacuation/
>>
>> What is worth democracy without the people ready *and willing* to
>> defender it? "Little" in the world as it is.
>>
>> IMHO from this newsgroup perspective it boils down to: US created
>> a *shitty* democracy/"democracy" in Afghanistan, something Afghans
>> themselves have not been eager to *really* defend.
>>
>> Wisdom from the most democratic (non tiny) country in the world IMHO:
>> "There isn’t any army in Switzerland; Switzerland is an army itself”.
>> Mao paraphrased: Political power grows out of the barrel of a military
>> gun *kept at home*.
>
>
> It is obvious that the ForeignPolicy.com writer Elise Labott believes
> Biden and his democracy agenda on US foreign policy until Biden gave
> up on Afghanistan. Do you have information on Biden showing he was not
> sincere concerning his democracy agenda.
>
> Concerning Afghans not will to defend the current government, is
> willingness to defend under all circumstances an inalienable part of
> democracy in the West? More important, who is to decide which
> democracy is shitty? Ane which democracy is at present perfect in
> every way.

It should be readiness to defend right to choose *next* government.
In some "democracies" such right looks like a mirage.

Anyway AFAIR the final fall of South Vietnam was also fast+.
Twenty years to build "a house of straw" shows impressive stupidity IMHO.

--
A. Filip : Big Tech Brother is watching you.
| If a 6600 used paper tape instead of core memory, it would use up
| tape at about 30 miles/second.
| (Grishman, Assembly Language Programming)

Actually it is cut loss situation. The US military is yawning there. The
military is the one that has not idea on how to handle the terrorists and
run their trained Afghanistan army.

The US military is just a "tree stump" doing nothing. They are there as a
highly paid "security guard" over seeing the Afghan troops and police.

They were there to show the world they have their foot on Afghanistan's
Taliban, instead. The US military is too boastful, too great, has no
economic skill as to what to do in Afghanistan after conquering it.

Actually decision to vacate Afghanistan came from Trump who set the dateline
of May 1. Regardless of whether May 1 or August 31 by Biden made no
difference to it.

The outcome is how come the intelligence data collected was wrong and
inaccurate, in that the data anticipated 3 months, and US withdrawal by
August 31. But, instead, the Taliban arrived the capital in 9 days, Sunday,
August 15.

"ltlee1" wrote in message
news:e3849f8f-b40e-4cd4-a628-d0d0ad3d2338n@googlegroups.com...

"The abandonment of Afghanistan, a democratic state, to its fate under the
rule of a terrorist organization reveals some hard truths about Biden’s
stated democracy and human rights agenda. Afghanistan is the latest and most
troubling sign there is a lot more bark to Biden’s democratic bite.

The Biden administration is pointing to the lightning speed collapse of the
Afghan army over the past few weeks as evidence of the brilliance behind
Biden’s decision to withdraw. In large part, Afghan forces melted away
because the glue holding the Afghan army together—the logistical and
psychological U.S. system of support they were dependent on—was taken away
wholesale. At that point, the endgame was clear.

But ultimately, the Taliban were able to take over so easily because Afghans
were unwilling to die in the name of a corrupt president and incompetent
government they didn’t support. That was the contingency the Biden
administration evidently didn’t consider, though the signs had been blinking
red for months.
....
Biden was repeating mistakes former U.S. President Donald Trump—and the two
U.S. presidents before him—made, which was to prop up a corrupt government
that never earned the Afghan people’s trust. Just like they did in Iraq,
Americans convinced themselves their enormous military footprint and blank
checkbook would be enough for Afghanistan to stand on its own feet without
dealing with the systemic problems of weak governance.

But unlike his predecessors, Biden came to office promising to stand up for
U.S. values of democracy and human rights. He has spoken eloquently about
the need for the world’s democracies to rally against tyranny and outcompete
authoritarian governments.
....
Today, Russia and China are celebrating the U.S. defeat and are on the verge
of recognizing the Taliban as the legitimate government. They will
undoubtedly be among the group’s biggest backers, fill the vacuum the United
States left behind, and point to the resulting damage in the United States’
standing as evidence that democracies cannot, in Biden’s words, “deliver.”

This is why it’s hard to square Biden’s proclamations about human rights and
democracy promotion with his approach to Afghanistan. As a presidential
candidate last year, Biden was asked whether the United States had a
responsibility to Afghan women and girls in light of a possible Taliban
takeover. “No, I don’t!” Biden said. “Zero responsibility.”
....
“There was a lot of promise, a lot of assurance,” a journalist in
Afghanistan wrote in an essay for Politico under the condition of anonymity
to protect his security. “A lot of talk about values, a lot of talk about
progress, about rights, about women’s rights, about freedom, about
democracy. That all turned out to be hollow. Had I known that this
commitment was temporary, I wouldn’t have risked my life.”"

https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/08/17/afghanistan-withdrawal-biden-democracy-agenda-human-rights-evacuation/

On Wednesday, August 18, 2021 at 10:37:39 PM UTC-7, A. Filip wrote:
> bmoore <bmo...@nyx.net> wrote:
> > On Wednesday, August 18, 2021 at 2:44:02 PM UTC-7, ltlee1 wrote:
> >> On Wednesday, August 18, 2021 at 2:32:53 PM UTC-4, A. Filip wrote:
> >> > ltlee1 <ltl... wrote:
> >> > > "The abandonment of Afghanistan, a democratic state, to its fate under
> >> > > the rule of a terrorist organization reveals some hard truths about
> >> > > Biden’s stated democracy and human rights agenda. Afghanistan is the
> >> > > latest and most troubling sign there is a lot more bark to Biden’s
> >> > > democratic bite.
> >> > > […]
> >> > > https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/08/17/afghanistan-withdrawal-biden-democracy-agenda-human-rights-evacuation/
> >> >
> >> > What is worth democracy without the people ready *and willing* to
> >> > defender it? "Little" in the world as it is.
> >> >
> >> > IMHO from this newsgroup perspective it boils down to: US created
> >> > a *shitty* democracy/"democracy" in Afghanistan, something Afghans
> >> > themselves have not been eager to *really* defend.
> >> >
> >> > Wisdom from the most democratic (non tiny) country in the world IMHO:
> >> > "There isn’t any army in Switzerland; Switzerland is an army itself”.
> >> > Mao paraphrased: Political power grows out of the barrel of a military
> >> > gun *kept at home*.
> >> It is obvious that the ForeignPolicy.com writer Elise Labott believes Biden and his
> >> democracy agenda on US foreign policy until Biden gave up on Afghanistan. Do
> >> you have information on Biden showing he was not sincere concerning his
> >> democracy agenda.
> >>
> >> Concerning Afghans not will to defend the current government, is willingness to defend
> >> under all circumstances an inalienable part of democracy in the West? More important,
> >> who is to decide which democracy is shitty? Ane which democracy is at present perfect
> >> in every way.
> >
> > Let's talk truth. No one commenting here would want the Taliban
> > running their show. They would be scared shitless.
> >
> > Gee whiz, LT. You continue to defend things in places you would never live.
> So what? Who commenting here is ready to fight Taliban *himself* ?

That has nothing to do with the fact that they are obviously horrible.

bmoore <bmoore@nyx.net> wrote:
> On Wednesday, August 18, 2021 at 10:37:39 PM UTC-7, A. Filip wrote:
>> bmoore <bmo...@nyx.net> wrote:
>> > On Wednesday, August 18, 2021 at 2:44:02 PM UTC-7, ltlee1 wrote:
>> >> On Wednesday, August 18, 2021 at 2:32:53 PM UTC-4, A. Filip wrote:
>> >> > ltlee1 <ltl... wrote:
>> >> > > "The abandonment of Afghanistan, a democratic state, to its fate under
>> >> > > the rule of a terrorist organization reveals some hard truths about
>> >> > > Biden’s stated democracy and human rights agenda. Afghanistan is the
>> >> > > latest and most troubling sign there is a lot more bark to Biden’s
>> >> > > democratic bite.
>> >> > > […]
>> >> > > https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/08/17/afghanistan-withdrawal-biden-democracy-agenda-human-rights-evacuation/
>> >> >
>> >> > What is worth democracy without the people ready *and willing* to
>> >> > defender it? "Little" in the world as it is.
>> >> >
>> >> > IMHO from this newsgroup perspective it boils down to: US created
>> >> > a *shitty* democracy/"democracy" in Afghanistan, something Afghans
>> >> > themselves have not been eager to *really* defend.
>> >> >
>> >> > Wisdom from the most democratic (non tiny) country in the world IMHO:
>> >> > "There isn’t any army in Switzerland; Switzerland is an army itself”.
>> >> > Mao paraphrased: Political power grows out of the barrel of a military
>> >> > gun *kept at home*.
>> >> It is obvious that the ForeignPolicy.com writer Elise Labott believes Biden and his
>> >> democracy agenda on US foreign policy until Biden gave up on Afghanistan. Do
>> >> you have information on Biden showing he was not sincere concerning his
>> >> democracy agenda.
>> >>
>> >> Concerning Afghans not will to defend the current government, is willingness to defend
>> >> under all circumstances an inalienable part of democracy in the West? More important,
>> >> who is to decide which democracy is shitty? Ane which democracy is at present perfect
>> >> in every way.
>> >
>> > Let's talk truth. No one commenting here would want the Taliban
>> > running their show. They would be scared shitless.
>> >
>> > Gee whiz, LT. You continue to defend things in places you would never live.
>> So what? Who commenting here is ready to fight Taliban *himself* ?
>
> That has nothing to do with the fact that they are obviously horrible.

Nice people hardly ever win with overwhelming military superiority.
Taliban are horrible but not horrible enough to make you risk your own life.

I can see two issues:
1. Are Taliban horrible enough to justify *twenty* years of US-Afghanistan?
It is disputable (at very least IMHO).
2. Unless you are ready for next 20 years of military interventions
indicate some limits of proper reaction NOW.

Declaring no (military) reaction no matter what would be plain stupid
*but* it should be clear that such intervention is unlikely and it would
require BIG provocation.

--
A. Filip : Big Tech Brother is watching you.
| "Not only is God dead, but just try to find a plumber on weekends."
| (Woody Allen)

On Wednesday, August 18, 2021 at 6:58:18 PM UTC-7, bmoore wrote:
> On Wednesday, August 18, 2021 at 2:44:02 PM UTC-7, ltlee1 wrote:
> > On Wednesday, August 18, 2021 at 2:32:53 PM UTC-4, A. Filip wrote:
> > > ltlee1 <ltl... wrote:
> > > > "The abandonment of Afghanistan, a democratic state, to its fate under
> > > > the rule of a terrorist organization reveals some hard truths about
> > > > Biden’s stated democracy and human rights agenda. Afghanistan is the
> > > > latest and most troubling sign there is a lot more bark to Biden’s
> > > > democratic bite.
> > > > […]
> > > > https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/08/17/afghanistan-withdrawal-biden-democracy-agenda-human-rights-evacuation/
> > >
> > > What is worth democracy without the people ready *and willing* to
> > > defender it? "Little" in the world as it is.
> > >
> > > IMHO from this newsgroup perspective it boils down to: US created
> > > a *shitty* democracy/"democracy" in Afghanistan, something Afghans
> > > themselves have not been eager to *really* defend.
> > >
> > > Wisdom from the most democratic (non tiny) country in the world IMHO:
> > > "There isn’t any army in Switzerland; Switzerland is an army itself”.
> > > Mao paraphrased: Political power grows out of the barrel of a military
> > > gun *kept at home*.
> > It is obvious that the ForeignPolicy.com writer Elise Labott believes Biden and his
> > democracy agenda on US foreign policy until Biden gave up on Afghanistan. Do
> > you have information on Biden showing he was not sincere concerning his
> > democracy agenda.
> >
> > Concerning Afghans not will to defend the current government, is willingness to defend
> > under all circumstances an inalienable part of democracy in the West? More important,
> > who is to decide which democracy is shitty? Ane which democracy is at present perfect
> > in every way.
> Let's talk truth. No one commenting here would want the Taliban running their show.

The power of the gun speaks the loudest and is always right. Right now, the Taliban has the power of the gun in Afghanistan. Now, who can speak up against the Taliban???

> They would be scared shitless.
>
> Gee whiz, LT. You continue to defend things in places you would never live.

On Thursday, August 19, 2021 at 8:04:57 AM UTC-7, bmoore wrote:
> On Wednesday, August 18, 2021 at 10:37:39 PM UTC-7, A. Filip wrote:
> > bmoore <bmo...@nyx.net> wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, August 18, 2021 at 2:44:02 PM UTC-7, ltlee1 wrote:
> > >> On Wednesday, August 18, 2021 at 2:32:53 PM UTC-4, A. Filip wrote:
> > >> > ltlee1 <ltl... wrote:
> > >> > > "The abandonment of Afghanistan, a democratic state, to its fate under
> > >> > > the rule of a terrorist organization reveals some hard truths about
> > >> > > Biden’s stated democracy and human rights agenda. Afghanistan is the
> > >> > > latest and most troubling sign there is a lot more bark to Biden’s
> > >> > > democratic bite.
> > >> > > […]
> > >> > > https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/08/17/afghanistan-withdrawal-biden-democracy-agenda-human-rights-evacuation/
> > >> >
> > >> > What is worth democracy without the people ready *and willing* to
> > >> > defender it? "Little" in the world as it is.
> > >> >
> > >> > IMHO from this newsgroup perspective it boils down to: US created
> > >> > a *shitty* democracy/"democracy" in Afghanistan, something Afghans
> > >> > themselves have not been eager to *really* defend.
> > >> >
> > >> > Wisdom from the most democratic (non tiny) country in the world IMHO:
> > >> > "There isn’t any army in Switzerland; Switzerland is an army itself”.
> > >> > Mao paraphrased: Political power grows out of the barrel of a military
> > >> > gun *kept at home*.
> > >> It is obvious that the ForeignPolicy.com writer Elise Labott believes Biden and his
> > >> democracy agenda on US foreign policy until Biden gave up on Afghanistan. Do
> > >> you have information on Biden showing he was not sincere concerning his
> > >> democracy agenda.
> > >>
> > >> Concerning Afghans not will to defend the current government, is willingness to defend
> > >> under all circumstances an inalienable part of democracy in the West? More important,
> > >> who is to decide which democracy is shitty? Ane which democracy is at present perfect
> > >> in every way.
> > >
> > > Let's talk truth. No one commenting here would want the Taliban
> > > running their show. They would be scared shitless.
> > >
> > > Gee whiz, LT. You continue to defend things in places you would never live.
> > So what? Who commenting here is ready to fight Taliban *himself* ?
> That has nothing to do with the fact that they are obviously horrible.

"Horrible" to you, but "honorable" to Muslims...

On Thursday, August 19, 2021 at 8:24:17 AM UTC-7, A. Filip wrote:
> bmoore <bmo...@nyx.net> wrote:
> > On Wednesday, August 18, 2021 at 10:37:39 PM UTC-7, A. Filip wrote:
> >> bmoore <bmo...@nyx.net> wrote:
> >> > On Wednesday, August 18, 2021 at 2:44:02 PM UTC-7, ltlee1 wrote:
> >> >> On Wednesday, August 18, 2021 at 2:32:53 PM UTC-4, A. Filip wrote:
> >> >> > ltlee1 <ltl... wrote:
> >> >> > > "The abandonment of Afghanistan, a democratic state, to its fate under
> >> >> > > the rule of a terrorist organization reveals some hard truths about
> >> >> > > Biden’s stated democracy and human rights agenda. Afghanistan is the
> >> >> > > latest and most troubling sign there is a lot more bark to Biden’s
> >> >> > > democratic bite.
> >> >> > > […]
> >> >> > > https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/08/17/afghanistan-withdrawal-biden-democracy-agenda-human-rights-evacuation/
> >> >> >
> >> >> > What is worth democracy without the people ready *and willing* to
> >> >> > defender it? "Little" in the world as it is.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > IMHO from this newsgroup perspective it boils down to: US created
> >> >> > a *shitty* democracy/"democracy" in Afghanistan, something Afghans
> >> >> > themselves have not been eager to *really* defend.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Wisdom from the most democratic (non tiny) country in the world IMHO:
> >> >> > "There isn’t any army in Switzerland; Switzerland is an army itself”.
> >> >> > Mao paraphrased: Political power grows out of the barrel of a military
> >> >> > gun *kept at home*.
> >> >> It is obvious that the ForeignPolicy.com writer Elise Labott believes Biden and his
> >> >> democracy agenda on US foreign policy until Biden gave up on Afghanistan. Do
> >> >> you have information on Biden showing he was not sincere concerning his
> >> >> democracy agenda.
> >> >>
> >> >> Concerning Afghans not will to defend the current government, is willingness to defend
> >> >> under all circumstances an inalienable part of democracy in the West? More important,
> >> >> who is to decide which democracy is shitty? Ane which democracy is at present perfect
> >> >> in every way.
> >> >
> >> > Let's talk truth. No one commenting here would want the Taliban
> >> > running their show. They would be scared shitless.
> >> >
> >> > Gee whiz, LT. You continue to defend things in places you would never live.
> >> So what? Who commenting here is ready to fight Taliban *himself* ?
> >
> > That has nothing to do with the fact that they are obviously horrible.
> Nice people hardly ever win with overwhelming military superiority.

Yes, they do win!!! Overwhelming military superiority will ALWAYS win in all cases with planning and proper execution.

> Taliban are horrible but not horrible enough to make you risk your own life.
>
> I can see two issues:
> 1. Are Taliban horrible enough to justify *twenty* years of US-Afghanistan?

Who is to say "horrible"? We say the Muslim's way of life is "horrible" while the Muslim says our way of life is "horrible"!!!

> It is disputable (at very least IMHO).
> 2. Unless you are ready for next 20 years of military interventions
> indicate some limits of proper reaction NOW.
>
> Declaring no (military) reaction no matter what would be plain stupid
> *but* it should be clear that such intervention is unlikely and it would
> require BIG provocation.
> --
> A. Filip : Big Tech Brother is watching you.
> | "Not only is God dead, but just try to find a plumber on weekends."
> | (Woody Allen)

On Thursday, August 19, 2021 at 8:24:17 AM UTC-7, A. Filip wrote:
> bmoore <bmo...@nyx.net> wrote:
> > On Wednesday, August 18, 2021 at 10:37:39 PM UTC-7, A. Filip wrote:
> >> bmoore <bmo...@nyx.net> wrote:
> >> > On Wednesday, August 18, 2021 at 2:44:02 PM UTC-7, ltlee1 wrote:
> >> >> On Wednesday, August 18, 2021 at 2:32:53 PM UTC-4, A. Filip wrote:
> >> >> > ltlee1 <ltl... wrote:
> >> >> > > "The abandonment of Afghanistan, a democratic state, to its fate under
> >> >> > > the rule of a terrorist organization reveals some hard truths about
> >> >> > > Biden’s stated democracy and human rights agenda. Afghanistan is the
> >> >> > > latest and most troubling sign there is a lot more bark to Biden’s
> >> >> > > democratic bite.
> >> >> > > […]
> >> >> > > https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/08/17/afghanistan-withdrawal-biden-democracy-agenda-human-rights-evacuation/
> >> >> >
> >> >> > What is worth democracy without the people ready *and willing* to
> >> >> > defender it? "Little" in the world as it is.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > IMHO from this newsgroup perspective it boils down to: US created
> >> >> > a *shitty* democracy/"democracy" in Afghanistan, something Afghans
> >> >> > themselves have not been eager to *really* defend.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Wisdom from the most democratic (non tiny) country in the world IMHO:
> >> >> > "There isn’t any army in Switzerland; Switzerland is an army itself”.
> >> >> > Mao paraphrased: Political power grows out of the barrel of a military
> >> >> > gun *kept at home*.
> >> >> It is obvious that the ForeignPolicy.com writer Elise Labott believes Biden and his
> >> >> democracy agenda on US foreign policy until Biden gave up on Afghanistan. Do
> >> >> you have information on Biden showing he was not sincere concerning his
> >> >> democracy agenda.
> >> >>
> >> >> Concerning Afghans not will to defend the current government, is willingness to defend
> >> >> under all circumstances an inalienable part of democracy in the West? More important,
> >> >> who is to decide which democracy is shitty? Ane which democracy is at present perfect
> >> >> in every way.
> >> >
> >> > Let's talk truth. No one commenting here would want the Taliban
> >> > running their show. They would be scared shitless.
> >> >
> >> > Gee whiz, LT. You continue to defend things in places you would never live.
> >> So what? Who commenting here is ready to fight Taliban *himself* ?
> >
> > That has nothing to do with the fact that they are obviously horrible.
> Nice people hardly ever win with overwhelming military superiority.
> Taliban are horrible but not horrible enough to make you risk your own life.

You at least agree that they *are* horrible. That's obviously a separate issue from who is willing to fight against them.
---------
Najia was at home with her three young sons and daughter in a small
village in northern Afghanistan when Taliban fighters knocked on their door..

Najia's daughter Manizha, 25, knew they were coming -- her mother had
told her they'd done the same thing the previous three days, demanding
that she cook food for up to 15 fighters.
"My mother told them, 'I am poor, how can I cook for you?'" said
Manizha. "(The Taliban) started beating her. My mother collapsed and
they hit her with their guns -- AK47s."
Manizha said she yelled at the fighters to stop. They paused for a
moment before throwing a grenade into the next room and fleeing as the
flames spread, she said. The mother-of-four died from the beating.

(snip)

Some women said they had no time to buy a burqa to comply with Taliban
rules that women should be covered up and accompanied by a male relative
when they leave the house.

(snip)

When the Taliban last ruled Afghanistan between 1996 and 2001, they
closed girls' schools and banned women from working.

(snip)

Taliban spokesman Suhail Shaheen said Monday that under the Taliban,
girls would be allowed to study. "Schools will be open and the girls and
the women, they will be going to schools, as teachers, as students," he
said.

But stories from locals on the ground paint a different picture -- and
there's a deep mistrust of militants who caused such misery under their
last rule.

In July, the Afghanistan Independent Human Rights Commission said in
areas controlled by the Taliban, women had been ordered not to attend
health services without a male guardian. TV was banned, and teachers and
students were instructed to wear turbans and grow beards.

(snip)

"As a woman, they just keep us inside. We fought for years to get out,
do we need to fight again for the same things? To get the permission to
work, to get the permission to go to hospital alone?"

(snip)

"Taliban don't let any women out without a male relative. Men are the
only ones allowed out. They can go to work," she said.

"If I need something, how I am I supposed to get it? It's a punishment.
It's not Islam. They call themselves Muslim. It's not right for them to
punish women."

https://www.cnn.com/2021/08/17/asia/afghanistan-women-taliban-intl-hnk-dst/index.html

>
> I can see two issues:
> 1. Are Taliban horrible enough to justify *twenty* years of US-Afghanistan?
> It is disputable (at very least IMHO).
> 2. Unless you are ready for next 20 years of military interventions
> indicate some limits of proper reaction NOW.
>
> Declaring no (military) reaction no matter what would be plain stupid
> *but* it should be clear that such intervention is unlikely and it would
> require BIG provocation.
> --
> A. Filip : Big Tech Brother is watching you.
> | "Not only is God dead, but just try to find a plumber on weekends."
> | (Woody Allen)

Rusty Wyse <yale.mar@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thursday, August 19, 2021 at 8:24:17 AM UTC-7, A. Filip wrote:
>> bmoore <bmo...@nyx.net> wrote:
>> > On Wednesday, August 18, 2021 at 10:37:39 PM UTC-7, A. Filip wrote:
>> >> bmoore <bmo...@nyx.net> wrote:
>> >> > On Wednesday, August 18, 2021 at 2:44:02 PM UTC-7, ltlee1 wrote:
>> >> >> On Wednesday, August 18, 2021 at 2:32:53 PM UTC-4, A. Filip wrote:
>> >> >> > ltlee1 <ltl... wrote:
>> >> >> > > "The abandonment of Afghanistan, a democratic state, to its fate under
>> >> >> > > the rule of a terrorist organization reveals some hard truths about
>> >> >> > > Biden’s stated democracy and human rights agenda. Afghanistan is the
>> >> >> > > latest and most troubling sign there is a lot more bark to Biden’s
>> >> >> > > democratic bite.
>> >> >> > > […]
>> >> >> > > https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/08/17/afghanistan-withdrawal-biden-democracy-agenda-human-rights-evacuation/
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > What is worth democracy without the people ready *and willing* to
>> >> >> > defender it? "Little" in the world as it is.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > IMHO from this newsgroup perspective it boils down to: US created
>> >> >> > a *shitty* democracy/"democracy" in Afghanistan, something Afghans
>> >> >> > themselves have not been eager to *really* defend.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > Wisdom from the most democratic (non tiny) country in the world IMHO:
>> >> >> > "There isn’t any army in Switzerland; Switzerland is an army itself”.
>> >> >> > Mao paraphrased: Political power grows out of the barrel of a military
>> >> >> > gun *kept at home*.
>> >> >> It is obvious that the ForeignPolicy.com writer Elise Labott believes Biden and his
>> >> >> democracy agenda on US foreign policy until Biden gave up on Afghanistan. Do
>> >> >> you have information on Biden showing he was not sincere concerning his
>> >> >> democracy agenda.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Concerning Afghans not will to defend the current government, is willingness to defend
>> >> >> under all circumstances an inalienable part of democracy in the West? More important,
>> >> >> who is to decide which democracy is shitty? Ane which democracy is at present perfect
>> >> >> in every way.
>> >> >
>> >> > Let's talk truth. No one commenting here would want the Taliban
>> >> > running their show. They would be scared shitless.
>> >> >
>> >> > Gee whiz, LT. You continue to defend things in places you would never live.
>> >> So what? Who commenting here is ready to fight Taliban *himself* ?
>> >
>> > That has nothing to do with the fact that they are obviously horrible.
>> Nice people hardly ever win with overwhelming military superiority.
>
> Yes, they do win!!! Overwhelming military superiority will ALWAYS
> win in all cases with planning and proper execution.
> […]

Are you ready for "kill everything that moves" escalation?
[ *Mass* civilian casualties ] Is Afghanistan important enough for US
to get image "We are FIRST SUPER SOBs"? IMHO *NO*.

Afghan war have not been "survive or die" war for US. It usually
introduces military limitations. Remember *multiplayer* worldwide big
game. Or if you prefer economic/business approach: Afghan war was not
important enough for US to win at any cost.

You do not win "battles" to loose "the war".

--
A. Filip : Big Tech Brother is watching you.
| C'est magnifique, mais ce n'est pas l'Informatique.
| (Bosquet [on seeing the IBM 4341])

On Thursday, August 19, 2021 at 3:26:44 AM UTC-4, kiroro wrote:
> Actually it is cut loss situation. The US military is yawning there. The
> military is the one that has not idea on how to handle the terrorists and
> run their trained Afghanistan army.

Of course it is. The issue raised by Ms Elise Labott is not the US has decided to
cut its loss. Rather, it is the manner it leaves. "Abandonment " is the right word.

It raises the issue of how much Biden really cares about his so called "democratic
agenda". At present, the US has to compete and hopefully contain China. To ensure
a favorable outcome, it wants to unite allies under the a democratic agenda.. If Biden
does not really care about democracy and the human rights of Afghans, Biden's
effort would die an ugly death per Ms Elise Labott.

>
> The US military is just a "tree stump" doing nothing. They are there as a
> highly paid "security guard" over seeing the Afghan troops and police.
>
> They were there to show the world they have their foot on Afghanistan's
> Taliban, instead. The US military is too boastful, too great, has no
> economic skill as to what to do in Afghanistan after conquering it.
>
> Actually decision to vacate Afghanistan came from Trump who set the dateline
> of May 1. Regardless of whether May 1 or August 31 by Biden made no
> difference to it.
>
> The outcome is how come the intelligence data collected was wrong and
> inaccurate, in that the data anticipated 3 months, and US withdrawal by
> August 31. But, instead, the Taliban arrived the capital in 9 days, Sunday,
> August 15.
>
>
>
> "ltlee1" wrote in message
> news:e3849f8f-b40e-4cd4...@googlegroups.com...
> "The abandonment of Afghanistan, a democratic state, to its fate under the
> rule of a terrorist organization reveals some hard truths about Biden’s
> stated democracy and human rights agenda. Afghanistan is the latest and most
> troubling sign there is a lot more bark to Biden’s democratic bite.
>
> The Biden administration is pointing to the lightning speed collapse of the
> Afghan army over the past few weeks as evidence of the brilliance behind
> Biden’s decision to withdraw. In large part, Afghan forces melted away
> because the glue holding the Afghan army together—the logistical and
> psychological U.S. system of support they were dependent on—was taken away
> wholesale. At that point, the endgame was clear.
>
> But ultimately, the Taliban were able to take over so easily because Afghans
> were unwilling to die in the name of a corrupt president and incompetent
> government they didn’t support. That was the contingency the Biden
> administration evidently didn’t consider, though the signs had been blinking
> red for months.
> ...
> Biden was repeating mistakes former U.S. President Donald Trump—and the two
> U.S. presidents before him—made, which was to prop up a corrupt government
> that never earned the Afghan people’s trust. Just like they did in Iraq,
> Americans convinced themselves their enormous military footprint and blank
> checkbook would be enough for Afghanistan to stand on its own feet without
> dealing with the systemic problems of weak governance.
>
> But unlike his predecessors, Biden came to office promising to stand up for
> U.S. values of democracy and human rights. He has spoken eloquently about
> the need for the world’s democracies to rally against tyranny and outcompete
> authoritarian governments.
> ...
> Today, Russia and China are celebrating the U.S. defeat and are on the verge
> of recognizing the Taliban as the legitimate government. They will
> undoubtedly be among the group’s biggest backers, fill the vacuum the United
> States left behind, and point to the resulting damage in the United States’
> standing as evidence that democracies cannot, in Biden’s words, “deliver.”
>
> This is why it’s hard to square Biden’s proclamations about human rights and
> democracy promotion with his approach to Afghanistan. As a presidential
> candidate last year, Biden was asked whether the United States had a
> responsibility to Afghan women and girls in light of a possible Taliban
> takeover. “No, I don’t!” Biden said. “Zero responsibility.”
> ...
> “There was a lot of promise, a lot of assurance,” a journalist in
> Afghanistan wrote in an essay for Politico under the condition of anonymity
> to protect his security. “A lot of talk about values, a lot of talk about
> progress, about rights, about women’s rights, about freedom, about
> democracy. That all turned out to be hollow. Had I known that this
> commitment was temporary, I wouldn’t have risked my life.”"
>
> https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/08/17/afghanistan-withdrawal-biden-democracy-agenda-human-rights-evacuation/

bmoore <bmoore@nyx.net> wrote:
[…]
> You at least agree that they *are* horrible. That's obviously a separate issue from who is willing to fight against them.
> ---------
> Najia was at home with her three young sons and daughter in a small
> village in northern Afghanistan when Taliban fighters knocked on their door.
[…]
> "Taliban don't let any women out without a male relative. Men are the
> only ones allowed out. They can go to work," she said.
>
> "If I need something, how I am I supposed to get it? It's a punishment.
> It's not Islam. They call themselves Muslim. It's not right for them to
> punish women."
>
> https://www.cnn.com/2021/08/17/asia/afghanistan-women-taliban-intl-hnk-dst/index.html

1. It looks like cheap war propaganda before Iraq invasion.
It also looks like US post defeat in "20 years war" propaganda.
[ The best propaganda is based on almost truth IMHO ]
2. Compare woman treatment to Saudi Kingdom standards or get lost.
Without willingness for such comparison it is a double standards
bullshit for me.

--
A. Filip : Big Tech Brother is watching you.
| Beauty, n.: The power by which a woman charms a lover and
| terrifies a husband. (Ambrose Bierce)

On Thursday, August 19, 2021 at 9:58:28 AM UTC-7, A. Filip wrote:
> bmoore <bmo...@nyx.net> wrote:
> […]
> > You at least agree that they *are* horrible. That's obviously a separate issue from who is willing to fight against them.
> > ---------
> > Najia was at home with her three young sons and daughter in a small
> > village in northern Afghanistan when Taliban fighters knocked on their door.
> […]
> > "Taliban don't let any women out without a male relative. Men are the
> > only ones allowed out. They can go to work," she said.
> >
> > "If I need something, how I am I supposed to get it? It's a punishment.
> > It's not Islam. They call themselves Muslim. It's not right for them to
> > punish women."
> >
> > https://www.cnn.com/2021/08/17/asia/afghanistan-women-taliban-intl-hnk-dst/index.html
> 1. It looks like cheap war propaganda before Iraq invasion.
> It also looks like US post defeat in "20 years war" propaganda.
> [ The best propaganda is based on almost truth IMHO ]
> 2. Compare woman treatment to Saudi Kingdom standards or get lost.
> Without willingness for such comparison it is a double standards
> bullshit for me.

OK. Saudi Arabia is pretty bad to women, but the Taliban are much worse. How's that?

bmoore <bmoore@nyx.net> wrote:
> On Thursday, August 19, 2021 at 9:58:28 AM UTC-7, A. Filip wrote:
>> bmoore <bmo...@nyx.net> wrote:
>> […]
>> > You at least agree that they *are* horrible. That's obviously a separate issue from who is willing to fight against them.
>> > ---------
>> > Najia was at home with her three young sons and daughter in a small
>> > village in northern Afghanistan when Taliban fighters knocked on their door.
>> […]
>> > "Taliban don't let any women out without a male relative. Men are the
>> > only ones allowed out. They can go to work," she said.
>> >
>> > "If I need something, how I am I supposed to get it? It's a punishment.
>> > It's not Islam. They call themselves Muslim. It's not right for them to
>> > punish women."
>> >
>> > https://www.cnn.com/2021/08/17/asia/afghanistan-women-taliban-intl-hnk-dst/index.html
>> 1. It looks like cheap war propaganda before Iraq invasion.
>> It also looks like US post defeat in "20 years war" propaganda.
>> [ The best propaganda is based on almost truth IMHO ]
>> 2. Compare woman treatment to Saudi Kingdom standards or get lost.
>> Without willingness for such comparison it is a double standards
>> bullshit for me.
>
> OK. Saudi Arabia is pretty bad to women, but the Taliban are much
> worse. How's that?

<cynicism> List the differences explicitly or get lost. Let people see
how much is western acceptable by standards for Saudi Kingdom. </cynicism>

--
A. Filip : Big Tech Brother is watching you.
| Politicians are the same all over. They promise to build a bridge
| even where there is no river. (Nikita Khrushchev)

On Thursday, August 19, 2021 at 10:33:03 AM UTC-7, A. Filip wrote:
> bmoore <bmo...@nyx.net> wrote:
> > On Thursday, August 19, 2021 at 9:58:28 AM UTC-7, A. Filip wrote:
> >> bmoore <bmo...@nyx.net> wrote:
> >> […]
> >> > You at least agree that they *are* horrible. That's obviously a separate issue from who is willing to fight against them.
> >> > ---------
> >> > Najia was at home with her three young sons and daughter in a small
> >> > village in northern Afghanistan when Taliban fighters knocked on their door.
> >> […]
> >> > "Taliban don't let any women out without a male relative. Men are the
> >> > only ones allowed out. They can go to work," she said.
> >> >
> >> > "If I need something, how I am I supposed to get it? It's a punishment.
> >> > It's not Islam. They call themselves Muslim. It's not right for them to
> >> > punish women."
> >> >
> >> > https://www.cnn.com/2021/08/17/asia/afghanistan-women-taliban-intl-hnk-dst/index.html
> >> 1. It looks like cheap war propaganda before Iraq invasion.
> >> It also looks like US post defeat in "20 years war" propaganda.
> >> [ The best propaganda is based on almost truth IMHO ]
> >> 2. Compare woman treatment to Saudi Kingdom standards or get lost.
> >> Without willingness for such comparison it is a double standards
> >> bullshit for me.
> >
> > OK. Saudi Arabia is pretty bad to women, but the Taliban are much
> > worse. How's that?
> <cynicism> List the differences explicitly or get lost. Let people see
> how much is western acceptable by standards for Saudi Kingdom. </cynicism>

You're resorting to whataboutism. The fact remains that the Taliban are horrible. You're free to believe that the Saudis are as bad, but you don't seem to want to admit the obvious horribleness of the Taliban.

bmoore <bmoore@nyx.net> wrote:
> On Thursday, August 19, 2021 at 10:33:03 AM UTC-7, A. Filip wrote:
>> bmoore <bmo...@nyx.net> wrote:
>> > On Thursday, August 19, 2021 at 9:58:28 AM UTC-7, A. Filip wrote:
>> >> bmoore <bmo...@nyx.net> wrote:
>> >> […]
>> >> > You at least agree that they *are* horrible. That's obviously a separate issue from who is willing to fight against them.
>> >> > ---------
>> >> > Najia was at home with her three young sons and daughter in a small
>> >> > village in northern Afghanistan when Taliban fighters knocked on their door.
>> >> […]
>> >> > "Taliban don't let any women out without a male relative. Men are the
>> >> > only ones allowed out. They can go to work," she said.
>> >> >
>> >> > "If I need something, how I am I supposed to get it? It's a punishment.
>> >> > It's not Islam. They call themselves Muslim. It's not right for them to
>> >> > punish women."
>> >> >
>> >> > https://www.cnn.com/2021/08/17/asia/afghanistan-women-taliban-intl-hnk-dst/index.html
>> >> 1. It looks like cheap war propaganda before Iraq invasion.
>> >> It also looks like US post defeat in "20 years war" propaganda.
>> >> [ The best propaganda is based on almost truth IMHO ]
>> >> 2. Compare woman treatment to Saudi Kingdom standards or get lost.
>> >> Without willingness for such comparison it is a double standards
>> >> bullshit for me.
>> >
>> > OK. Saudi Arabia is pretty bad to women, but the Taliban are much
>> > worse. How's that?
>> <cynicism> List the differences explicitly or get lost. Let people see
>> how much is western acceptable by standards for Saudi Kingdom. </cynicism>
>
> You're resorting to whataboutism. The fact remains that the Taliban
> are horrible. You're free to believe that the Saudis are as bad, but
> you don't seem to want to admit the obvious horribleness of the
> Taliban.

Doing really "something" about Taliban "may be" risky+.
So it is crucial to estimate how much worse they are,
evaluate how far are you willing to go. After 20 years of
"The Afghan Adventure" US+ should learn value of setting (soft) limits.

I see the following as a *base* plan for dealing with Taliban:
+ evacuate huge number of more educated Afghans (from Kabul)
to create shortcomings pretty soon
+ after a few weeks of semi-public consultation introduce plan schedule
for increasing sanction/restrictions lifted after elections
(with results acknowledged by some international body, not US itself)

--
A. Filip : Big Tech Brother is watching you.
| I have ways of making money that you know nothing of.
| (John D. Rockefeller)

On Thursday, August 19, 2021 at 10:51:35 AM UTC-7, A. Filip wrote:
> bmoore <bmo...@nyx.net> wrote:
> > On Thursday, August 19, 2021 at 10:33:03 AM UTC-7, A. Filip wrote:
> >> bmoore <bmo...@nyx.net> wrote:
> >> > On Thursday, August 19, 2021 at 9:58:28 AM UTC-7, A. Filip wrote:
> >> >> bmoore <bmo...@nyx.net> wrote:
> >> >> […]
> >> >> > You at least agree that they *are* horrible. That's obviously a separate issue from who is willing to fight against them.
> >> >> > ---------
> >> >> > Najia was at home with her three young sons and daughter in a small
> >> >> > village in northern Afghanistan when Taliban fighters knocked on their door.
> >> >> […]
> >> >> > "Taliban don't let any women out without a male relative. Men are the
> >> >> > only ones allowed out. They can go to work," she said.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > "If I need something, how I am I supposed to get it? It's a punishment.
> >> >> > It's not Islam. They call themselves Muslim. It's not right for them to
> >> >> > punish women."
> >> >> >
> >> >> > https://www.cnn.com/2021/08/17/asia/afghanistan-women-taliban-intl-hnk-dst/index.html
> >> >> 1. It looks like cheap war propaganda before Iraq invasion.
> >> >> It also looks like US post defeat in "20 years war" propaganda.
> >> >> [ The best propaganda is based on almost truth IMHO ]
> >> >> 2. Compare woman treatment to Saudi Kingdom standards or get lost.
> >> >> Without willingness for such comparison it is a double standards
> >> >> bullshit for me.
> >> >
> >> > OK. Saudi Arabia is pretty bad to women, but the Taliban are much
> >> > worse. How's that?
> >> <cynicism> List the differences explicitly or get lost. Let people see
> >> how much is western acceptable by standards for Saudi Kingdom. </cynicism>
> >
> > You're resorting to whataboutism. The fact remains that the Taliban
> > are horrible. You're free to believe that the Saudis are as bad, but
> > you don't seem to want to admit the obvious horribleness of the
> > Taliban.
> Doing really "something" about Taliban "may be" risky+.
> So it is crucial to estimate how much worse they are,
> evaluate how far are you willing to go. After 20 years of
> "The Afghan Adventure" US+ should learn value of setting (soft) limits.
>
> I see the following as a *base* plan for dealing with Taliban:
> + evacuate huge number of more educated Afghans (from Kabul)
> to create shortcomings pretty soon
> + after a few weeks of semi-public consultation introduce plan schedule
> for increasing sanction/restrictions lifted after elections
> (with results acknowledged by some international body, not US itself)

Yes, will need to see what this evolves into... the Taliban say they will be different this time. No evidence of that yet.