This week I learned the difference in French between "meurtre" et
"assassinat": "meurtre" is any old homicide; "assassinat" is
premeditated murder, i.e. intentional murder. It seems to me in in
English "murder" and "assassination" don't differ in the same way: if
you kill your your next-door neighbour then that's a murder, but if you
kill a well-known public figure, such the Prime Minister, then that's
an assassination. In other words the difference related to the identity
of the victim rather than to the intent to kill. Am I right? Is that
how others see the difference between murder and assassination?

--
Athel -- French and British, living in Marseilles for 37 years; mainly
in England until 1987.

Athel Cornish-Bowden:
> This week I learned the difference in French between "meurtre" et
> "assassinat": "meurtre" is any old homicide; "assassinat" is
> premeditated murder, i.e. intentional murder.

Interesting; I had not come across that information.

> It seems to me in in
> English "murder" and "assassination" don't differ in the same way: if
> you kill your your next-door neighbour then that's a murder, but if you
> kill a well-known public figure, such the Prime Minister, then that's
> an assassination.

Well, it's both, ipso facto: An assassination is a type of murder.

> In other words the difference related to the identity
> of the victim rather than to the intent to kill.

I think the identity has to be part of the motive, too. In other words,
it's only an assassination if you kill her *because* she's the PM, or
because of what she's done or likely to do as PM, or the like.
--
Mark Brader "In general, it is safe and legal to
Toronto kill your children and their children."
msb@vex.net -- POSIX manual, quoted by Thomas Koenig

My text in this article is in the public domain.

In article <l8ihapF27bgU1@mid.individual.net>,
Athel Cornish-Bowden <me@yahoo.com> wrote:
>This week I learned the difference in French between "meurtre" et
>"assassinat": "meurtre" is any old homicide; "assassinat" is
>premeditated murder, i.e. intentional murder.

Yes. For instance, in the news just now:
https://www.lefigaro.fr/faits-divers/agression-mortelle-du-jeune-philippe-a-grande-synthe-deux-mineurs-mis-en-examen-pour-assassinat-annonce-la-procureure-20240419
https://tinyurl.com/25nppyg9

Deux mineurs de 14 et 15 ans ont été mis en examen pour
«assassinat» vendredi, dans l'enquête sur l'agression mortelle de
Philippe Coopman, un jeune homme de 22 ans battu à mort mardi à
Grande-Synthe (Nord) lors d'un guet-apens.

> It seems to me in in
>English "murder" and "assassination" don't differ in the same way: if
>you kill your your next-door neighbour then that's a murder, but if you
>kill a well-known public figure, such the Prime Minister, then that's
>an assassination. In other words the difference related to the identity
>of the victim rather than to the intent to kill. Am I right? Is that
>how others see the difference between murder and assassination?

assassination = assassinat à motif politique

Pierre
--
Pierre Jelenc
The Gigometer www.gigometer.com
The NYC Beer Guide www.nycbeer.org

On 4/20/24 13:54, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> Am I right?

No. Here and in Europe both, if you kill a public figure you've done an
"Iran-backed" act.

On 21/04/2024 6:54 a.m., Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> This week I learned the difference in French between "meurtre" et
> "assassinat": "meurtre" is any old homicide; "assassinat" is
> premeditated murder, i.e. intentional murder. It seems to me in in
> English "murder" and "assassination" don't differ in the same way: if
> you kill your your next-door neighbour then that's a murder, but if you
> kill a well-known public figure, such the Prime Minister, then that's an
> assassination. In other words the difference related to the identity of
> the victim rather than to the intent to kill. Am I right? Is that how
> others see the difference between murder and assassination?
>

That's right for English.
I didn't know the French distinction, and I'm not sure I understand it.
"Unpremeditated" is not the same as "unintentional", is it? The latter
would be what English calls "manslaughter". The former could apply to
kiling someone in a sudden fit of rage, without having planned it in
advance.

On 20/04/2024 20:54, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> This week I learned the difference in French between "meurtre" et
> "assassinat": "meurtre" is any old homicide; "assassinat" is
> premeditated murder, i.e. intentional murder.

Good to know.

> It seems to me in in
> English "murder" and "assassination" don't differ in the same way: if
> you kill your your next-door neighbour then that's a murder, but if you
> kill a well-known public figure, such the Prime Minister, then that's an
> assassination.

I think assassination also has a third-party element to it. An assassin
is a murderer, yet an assassination is not necessarily conceived by the
murderer. It could be a contract or plan put in place by someone other
than the hired assassin. (Maybe.)

> In other words the difference related to the identity of
> the victim rather than to the intent to kill. Am I right? Is that how
> others see the difference between murder and assassination?
>
>

On 20/04/2024 at 22:34, occam wrote:
> On 20/04/2024 20:54, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>> This week I learned the difference in French between "meurtre" et
>> "assassinat": "meurtre" is any old homicide; "assassinat" is
>> premeditated murder, i.e. intentional murder.
>
> Good to know.
>
>> It seems to me in in
>> English "murder" and "assassination" don't differ in the same way: if
>> you kill your your next-door neighbour then that's a murder, but if you
>> kill a well-known public figure, such the Prime Minister, then that's an
>> assassination.
>
> I think assassination also has a third-party element to it. An assassin
> is a murderer, yet an assassination is not necessarily conceived by the
> murderer. It could be a contract or plan put in place by someone other
> than the hired assassin. (Maybe.)
>
>> In other words the difference related to the identity of
>> the victim rather than to the intent to kill. Am I right? Is that how
>> others see the difference between murder and assassination?
>>
>>
>

It's assassination if you're a member of the Guild of Assassins. And
then it's legal, too. Assassins don't kill unless paid* (well).

*Courtesy PTerry

--
Chris Elvidge, England
I WAS NOT TOLD TO DO THIS

Physfitfreak wrote:

> On 4/20/24 13:54, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>> Am I right?

> No. Here and in Europe both, if you kill a public figure you've done an
> "Iran-backed" act.

Oy Roachie, suppose you had got enough crowdfunding physicists to hire a cheap killer bump off Arindam as you tried and failed, thankfully, question is whether it would be a murder or assassination?

We ghostly dogs of war are interested.

GRR GRR
bt

On 20-Apr-24 21:58, Ross Clark wrote:
> On 21/04/2024 6:54 a.m., Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>> This week I learned the difference in French between "meurtre" et
>> "assassinat": "meurtre" is any old homicide; "assassinat" is
>> premeditated murder, i.e. intentional murder. It seems to me in in
>> English "murder" and "assassination" don't differ in the same way: if
>> you kill your your next-door neighbour then that's a murder, but if
>> you kill a well-known public figure, such the Prime Minister, then
>> that's an assassination. In other words the difference related to the
>> identity of the victim rather than to the intent to kill. Am I right?
>> Is that how others see the difference between murder and assassination?
>>
>
> That's right for English.
> I didn't know the French distinction, and I'm not sure I understand it.
> "Unpremeditated" is not the same as "unintentional", is it? The latter
> would be what English calls "manslaughter". The former could apply to
> kiling someone in a sudden fit of rage, without having planned it in
> advance.

Even "man's laughter" is no laughing matter.

--
Sam Plusnet

On 21/04/24 06:41, Physfitfreak wrote:
> On 4/20/24 13:54, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:

>> Am I right?
>
> No. Here and in Europe both, if you kill a public figure you've done an
> "Iran-backed" act.

In Russia, assassassins are automatically given Ukranian citizenship.

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW

In article <l8ihapF27bgU1@mid.individual.net>,
me@yahoo.com says...
>
> This week I learned the difference in French between "meurtre" et
> "assassinat": "meurtre" is any old homicide; "assassinat" is
> premeditated murder, i.e. intentional murder. It seems to me in in
> English "murder" and "assassination" don't differ in the same way: if
> you kill your your next-door neighbour then that's a murder, but if you
> kill a well-known public figure, such the Prime Minister, then that's
> an assassination. In other words the difference related to the identity
> of the victim rather than to the intent to kill. Am I right? Is that
> how others see the difference between murder and assassination?

If I intentionally kill someone that's murder.
If I hire a professional hitman to do the job, it's
still murder.
Assassination seems to depend on my motives.

Janet

In article <Hw_UN.46796$T%2.10680@fx08.ams1>, not@home.com
says...
>
> On 20-Apr-24 21:58, Ross Clark wrote:
> > On 21/04/2024 6:54 a.m., Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> >> This week I learned the difference in French between "meurtre" et
> >> "assassinat": "meurtre" is any old homicide; "assassinat" is
> >> premeditated murder, i.e. intentional murder. It seems to me in in
> >> English "murder" and "assassination" don't differ in the same way: if
> >> you kill your your next-door neighbour then that's a murder, but if
> >> you kill a well-known public figure, such the Prime Minister, then
> >> that's an assassination. In other words the difference related to the
> >> identity of the victim rather than to the intent to kill. Am I right?
> >> Is that how others see the difference between murder and assassination?
> >>
> >
> > That's right for English.
> > I didn't know the French distinction, and I'm not sure I understand it.
> > "Unpremeditated" is not the same as "unintentional", is it? The latter
> > would be what English calls "manslaughter". The former could apply to
> > kiling someone in a sudden fit of rage, without having planned it in
> > advance.
>
> Even "man's laughter" is no laughing matter.

"Can't you men take a joke? No sense of humour."

Janet

On 21/04/2024 12:21, Janet wrote:
> In article <l8ihapF27bgU1@mid.individual.net>,
> me@yahoo.com says...
>>
>> This week I learned the difference in French between "meurtre" et
>> "assassinat": "meurtre" is any old homicide; "assassinat" is
>> premeditated murder, i.e. intentional murder. It seems to me in in
>> English "murder" and "assassination" don't differ in the same way: if
>> you kill your your next-door neighbour then that's a murder, but if you
>> kill a well-known public figure, such the Prime Minister, then that's
>> an assassination. In other words the difference related to the identity
>> of the victim rather than to the intent to kill. Am I right? Is that
>> how others see the difference between murder and assassination?
>
> If I intentionally kill someone that's murder.
>
> If I hire a professional hitman to do the job, it's
> still murder.
>
> Assassination seems to depend on my motives.
>

If you intentionally kill someone yourself, is that murder or
assassination?

Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:

> On 21/04/24 06:41, Physfitfreak wrote:
> > On 4/20/24 13:54, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>
> >> Am I right?
> >
> > No. Here and in Europe both, if you kill a public figure you've done an
> > "Iran-backed" act.
>
> In Russia, assassassins are automatically given Ukranian citizenship.

Similarly to 'bananana', how does one stop spelling 'assassassins'?

--
^Ï^. Sn!pe, PA, FIBS - Professional Crastinator

My pet rock Gordon just is.

In article <l8kbo9FahpiU1@mid.individual.net>,
occam@nowhere.nix says...
>
> On 21/04/2024 12:21, Janet wrote:
> > In article <l8ihapF27bgU1@mid.individual.net>,
> > me@yahoo.com says...
> >>
> >> This week I learned the difference in French between "meurtre" et
> >> "assassinat": "meurtre" is any old homicide; "assassinat" is
> >> premeditated murder, i.e. intentional murder. It seems to me in in
> >> English "murder" and "assassination" don't differ in the same way: if
> >> you kill your your next-door neighbour then that's a murder, but if you
> >> kill a well-known public figure, such the Prime Minister, then that's
> >> an assassination. In other words the difference related to the identity
> >> of the victim rather than to the intent to kill. Am I right? Is that
> >> how others see the difference between murder and assassination?
> >
> > If I intentionally kill someone that's murder.
> >
> > If I hire a professional hitman to do the job, it's
> > still murder.
> >
> > Assassination seems to depend on my motives.
> >
>
>
> If you intentionally kill someone yourself, is that murder or
> assassination?

Depends whether the corpse was Mrs Thatcher or my
mother-in-law.

Janet

On 21/04/24 21:31, Sn!pe wrote:
> Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On 21/04/24 06:41, Physfitfreak wrote:
>>> On 4/20/24 13:54, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>>
>>>> Am I right?
>>>
>>> No. Here and in Europe both, if you kill a public figure you've
>>> done an "Iran-backed" act.
>>
>> In Russia, assassassins are automatically given Ukranian
>> citizenship.
>
> Similarly to 'bananana', how does one stop spelling 'assassassins'?

I'll admit that my shopping list sometimes includes "banananas". (And
also "Qcumber".) My "assassassins" was a typo, of course, along the same
lines as Missississippi.

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW

* Janet <MPG.408f190ab023927d989c4c@news.individual.net> :
Wrote on Sun, 21 Apr 2024 13:38:05 +0100:
> In article <l8kbo9FahpiU1@mid.individual.net>,
>> On 21/04/2024 12:21, Janet wrote:
>> > In article <l8ihapF27bgU1@mid.individual.net>,
>> >> This week I learned the difference in French between "meurtre" et
>> >> "assassinat": "meurtre" is any old homicide; "assassinat" is
>> >> premeditated murder, i.e. intentional murder. It seems to me in in
>> >> English "murder" and "assassination" don't differ in the same way: if
>> >> you kill your your next-door neighbour then that's a murder, but if you
>> >> kill a well-known public figure, such the Prime Minister, then that's
>> >> an assassination. In other words the difference related to the identity
>> >> of the victim rather than to the intent to kill. Am I right? Is that
>> >> how others see the difference between murder and assassination?
>> >
>> > If I intentionally kill someone that's murder.
>> > If I hire a professional hitman to do the job, it's still murder.
>> > Assassination seems to depend on my motives.

here's mu take. if the effect of the outcome of the murder of the
personage (being murdered) falls into some recognizable category it is
assasination.

so you have character assasination, (which is worse than murder)

>> If you intentionally kill someone yourself, is that murder or
>> assassination?
>
> Depends whether the corpse was Mrs Thatcher or my
> mother-in-law.

On 2024-04-21, Janet wrote:

> In article <l8ihapF27bgU1@mid.individual.net>,
> me@yahoo.com says...
>>
>> This week I learned the difference in French between "meurtre" et
>> "assassinat": "meurtre" is any old homicide; "assassinat" is
>> premeditated murder, i.e. intentional murder. It seems to me in in
>> English "murder" and "assassination" don't differ in the same way: if
>> you kill your your next-door neighbour then that's a murder, but if you
>> kill a well-known public figure, such the Prime Minister, then that's
>> an assassination. In other words the difference related to the identity
>> of the victim rather than to the intent to kill. Am I right? Is that
>> how others see the difference between murder and assassination?
>
> If I intentionally kill someone that's murder.
>
> If I hire a professional hitman to do the job, it's
> still murder.

Yabbut I think in that case the hitman is charged with murder but you
are charged with a different offence.

> Assassination seems to depend on my motives.
>
> Janet

--
$2.95!
PLATE O' SHRIMP
Luncheon Special

On Sun, 21 Apr 2024 21:28:25 +0100, Adam Funk <a24061@ducksburg.com>
wrote:

[hiring hitmen]
>
>Yabbut I think in that case the hitman is charged with murder but you
>are charged with a different offence.
>

Maybe thirty years ago, I used to read about arrests
made for attempting to hire a hit. They would come up
every year or so. Every one was caught when the
person being hired turned out to be an undercover cop.
(That does not speak to the ones who were not caught.)

I don't know if that reflected western Pennsylvania,
or the state or the US.

Or my poor attention -- Google ngram shows a smooth,
four-fold increase in 'hired to kill' from 1980 to now.
However, the book-previews were largely historical,
and often fictional, so it takes a closer look than that
before I conclude that I am wrong.

I tried Google - News - and specified a date range.
2000 to 2024 had many more hits (seemingly) than 1980
to 2000 (10+ screens, vs. 5 more screens of results).
One of those hits DID mention tons of agents being around,
imitating hit men.

Googling 'Do hitment exist' gets a lot of speculation.

My favorite hitman movie is Mr. Right with Anna Kendrick
and Sam Rockwell. He is a hitman of fantastic, mystical skills
and reputation. Before the movie's action, he has decided
to kill anyone who tries to hire him; because 'murder is bad'.
The movie is a rom-com. With action.

--
Rich Ulrich

bertietaylor wrote:

> Physfitfreak wrote:

>> On 4/20/24 13:54, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>>> Am I right?

>> No. Here and in Europe both, if you kill a public figure you've done an
>> "Iran-backed" act.

> Oy Roachie, suppose you had got enough crowdfunding physicists to hire a cheap killer bump off Arindam as you tried and failed, thankfully, question is whether it would be a murder or assassination?

This is an english usage group. So we need to do better.
Oy Roachie, suppose you had got enough crowdfunding from physicists to hire a cheap killer to bump off Arindam - as you publicly tried, and failed, thankfully - then the question is whether it would have been murder or assassination?

> We ghostly dogs of war are interested.

> GRR GRR
> bt

On 21/04/2024 14:48, Peter Moylan wrote:
> On 21/04/24 21:31, Sn!pe wrote:
>> Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> On 21/04/24 06:41, Physfitfreak wrote:
>>>> On 4/20/24 13:54, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>>>
>>>>> Am I right?
>>>>
>>>> No. Here and in Europe both, if you kill a public figure you've
>>>> done an "Iran-backed" act.
>>>
>>> In Russia, assassassins are automatically given Ukranian
>>> citizenship.
>>
>> Similarly to 'bananana', how does one stop spelling 'assassassins'?
>
> I'll admit that my shopping list sometimes includes "banananas". (And
> also "Qcumber".) My "assassassins" was a typo, of course, along the same
> lines as Missississippi.
>

Funny, I thought 'banananas' was a hybrid fruit - a cross between a
banana and an ananas (FR for pineapple). GM is getting up to all sort
of tricks these days.

occam <occam@nowhere.nix> wrote:

> On 21/04/2024 14:48, Peter Moylan wrote:
> > On 21/04/24 21:31, Sn!pe wrote:
> >> Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
> >>
> >>> On 21/04/24 06:41, Physfitfreak wrote:
> >>>> On 4/20/24 13:54, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>> Am I right?
> >>>>
> >>>> No. Here and in Europe both, if you kill a public figure you've
> >>>> done an "Iran-backed" act.
> >>>
> >>> In Russia, assassassins are automatically given Ukranian
> >>> citizenship.
> >>
> >> Similarly to 'bananana', how does one stop spelling 'assassassins'?
> >
> > I'll admit that my shopping list sometimes includes "banananas". (And
> > also "Qcumber".) My "assassassins" was a typo, of course, along the same
> > lines as Missississippi.
> >
>
> Funny, I thought 'banananas' was a hybrid fruit - a cross between a
> banana and an ananas (FR for pineapple). GM is getting up to all sort
> of tricks these days.
>

"How do you stop spelling bananana?" is a humorous quote from one
of Terry Pratchett's Discworld characters, probably the witch Nanny Ogg
in his novel 'Witches Abroad'.

This cocktail recipe is slightly apropos:

<https://thefantasyinn.com/2017/12/14/nannys-bananana-dakry/>

--
^Ï^. Sn!pe, PA, FIBS - Professional Crastinator

My pet rock Gordon just is.

Janet wrote:

> In article <l8kbo9FahpiU1@mid.individual.net>,
> occam@nowhere.nix says...
>>
>> On 21/04/2024 12:21, Janet wrote:
>> > In article <l8ihapF27bgU1@mid.individual.net>,
>> > me@yahoo.com says...
>> >>
>> >> This week I learned the difference in French between "meurtre" et
>> >> "assassinat": "meurtre" is any old homicide; "assassinat" is
>> >> premeditated murder, i.e. intentional murder. It seems to me in in
>> >> English "murder" and "assassination" don't differ in the same way: if
>> >> you kill your your next-door neighbour then that's a murder, but if you
>> >> kill a well-known public figure, such the Prime Minister, then that's
>> >> an assassination. In other words the difference related to the identity
>> >> of the victim rather than to the intent to kill. Am I right? Is that
>> >> how others see the difference between murder and assassination?
>> >
>> > If I intentionally kill someone that's murder.
>> >
>> > If I hire a professional hitman to do the job, it's
>> > still murder.
>> >
>> > Assassination seems to depend on my motives.
>> >
>>
>>
>> If you intentionally kill someone yourself, is that murder or
>> assassination?

> Depends whether the corpse was Mrs Thatcher or my
> mother-in-law.

What if it was John Lennon? See for example /Death of a Dreamer:
The Assassination of John Lennon/, by Alison Marie Behnke.

--
Jerry Friedman

On 22/04/2024 15:11, jerryfriedman wrote:
> Janet wrote:
>
>> In article <l8kbo9FahpiU1@mid.individual.net>, occam@nowhere.nix says...
>>>
>>> On 21/04/2024 12:21, Janet wrote:
>>> > In article <l8ihapF27bgU1@mid.individual.net>, > me@yahoo.com says...
>>> >>
>>> >> This week I learned the difference in French between "meurtre" et
>>> >> "assassinat": "meurtre" is any old homicide; "assassinat" is >>
>>> premeditated murder, i.e. intentional murder. It seems to me in in >>
>>> English "murder" and "assassination" don't differ in the same way: if
>>> >> you kill your your next-door neighbour then that's a murder, but
>>> if you >> kill a well-known public figure, such the Prime Minister,
>>> then that's >> an assassination. In other words the difference
>>> related to the identity >> of the victim rather than to the intent to
>>> kill. Am I right? Is that >> how others see the difference between
>>> murder and assassination?
>>> > >   If I intentionally kill someone that's murder.
>>> >  >   If I hire a professional hitman to do the job, it's > still
>>> murder.
>>> >  >   Assassination seems to depend on my motives.
>>> >
>>>
>>> If you intentionally kill someone yourself, is that murder or
>>> assassination?
>
>>     Depends whether the corpse was Mrs Thatcher or my mother-in-law.
>
> What if it was John Lennon?  See for example /Death of a Dreamer:
> The Assassination of John Lennon/, by Alison Marie Behnke.
>

I think that was plain murder. The deranged murderer was suffering from
psychological problems, and hearing voices in his head. Oh wait, maybe
it was an assassination, if the instructions in his mind were telling
him to kill John.

In article <9g9gfkx376.ln2@news.ducksburg.com>,
Adam Funk <a24061@ducksburg.com> wrote:

>Yabbut I think in that case the hitman is charged with murder but you
>are charged with a different offence.

In the US there are many crimes that someone could be charged with in
that situation, including "felony murder" in some states. If you
conspire with someone to kill a third party, the prosecution can try
to make the case that the killing was a "joint enterprise" and both
parties are equally responsible, regardless of who actually did the
act. (It is often the case that the evidence does not allow the state
to prove beyond a reasonably doubt which of the accused actually did
it, and this construction allows both to be prosecuted.) There are of
course also conspiracy charges and I think in at least some states
procuring murder is a distinct offense. All of these crimes overlap
to some extent and which ones are actually presented to a jury will
depend on what evidence the prosecution can bring to bear. The jury
may well be instructed to make the determination among multiple
possible offenses on the basis of the facts they find.

-GAWollman
IANAL,TINLA

--
Garrett A. Wollman | "Act to avoid constraining the future; if you can,
wollman@bimajority.org| act to remove constraint from the future. This is
Opinions not shared by| a thing you can do, are able to do, to do together."
my employers. | - Graydon Saunders, _A Succession of Bad Days_ (2015)