On 2023-02-16, Scott Lurndal <scott@slp53.sl.home> wrote:
> maus <maus@mail.com> writes:
>>On 2023-02-16, Vir Campestris <vir.campestris@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>> On 16/02/2023 10:41, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>>>> True, the real question is how much energy consumption per capita
>>>> can we sustain and what can we do with it.
>>>
>>> It's not just the energy per capita, but the number of people.
>>>
>>> In 1800 the world population was less than a billion.
>>> It's now over 6, and still growing.
>>
>>No, It's not.
>
> https://www.un.org/en/desa/world-population-projected-reach-98-billion-2050-and-112-billion-2100
>
>

I think one could safely ignore any web address with `un' on it.

--
greymausg@mail.com
where is our money gone, Dude?

On 2023-02-16, johnson <root@example.net> wrote:
> On 2023-02-16, maus <maus@mail.com> wrote:
>> On 2023-02-16, Scott Lurndal <scott@slp53.sl.home> wrote:
>>> Vir Campestris <vir.campestris@invalid.invalid> writes:
>>>>On 15/02/2023 19:32, maus wrote:
>>>>> On 2023-02-15, Vir Campestris <vir.campestris@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>> On 12/02/2023 22:50, maus wrote:
>>>>>>> Most hybrid's I have heard of have petrol, not deisel, engines. Utterley useless for
>>>>>>> pulling a load.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So a Land-Rover V8 can't pull anything?
>>>>>
>>>>> What has a Landrover V8 got to do with anything? (Thoughts of Tina Turner}
>>>>>
>>>>In case it's escaped your notice it's a petrol engine.
>>>><snip>
>>>
>>> We pulled a travel trailer (caravan to those across the pond) with a
>>> 1962 chevy impala (gasoline/petrol). Maus' experiences in Eire don't
>>> appear to be universal.
>>
>>
>> Go along any road, anything pulling anything is diesel. (Or Deisel),
>> I can't remember. The EU parliment has decided that all deisel will
>> be stopped by 2030. Just goes to show, all the idiots are not in the US.
>>
>>
>
> Quite so: we have plenty here in the UK too.
> Thankfully the Prime Idiot of Scotland is abandoning her post.

I will have to find a Scots politician with a fishy based name

--
greymausg@mail.com
where is our money gone, Dude?

Vir Campestris <vir.campestris@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> On 16/02/2023 10:41, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>> True, the real question is how much energy consumption per capita
>> can we sustain and what can we do with it.
>
> It's not just the energy per capita, but the number of people.
>
> In 1800 the world population was less than a billion.
> It's now over 6, and still growing.
>
> If we don't get that under control nothing else matters.

But, God forbid that the birthrate drops below replacement level! Then the
seals will be opened and the four horsemen ride out.

--
Pete

Scott Lurndal <scott@slp53.sl.home> wrote:
> johnson <root@example.net> writes:
>> On 2023-02-16, D.J <chucktheouch@gmnol.com> wrote:
>>> On Thu, 16 Feb 2023 12:21:39 +0000, Vir Campestris
>>> <vir.campestris@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>>> On 16/02/2023 10:41, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>>>>> True, the real question is how much energy consumption per capita
>>>>> can we sustain and what can we do with it.
>>>>
>>>> It's not just the energy per capita, but the number of people.
>>>>
>>>> In 1800 the world population was less than a billion.
>>>> It's now over 6, and still growing.
>>>>
>>>> If we don't get that under control nothing else matters.
>>>
>>> 8 billion, recent figures.
>>
>> yes, American 'billions'
>
> It's my understanding that even the British have accepted the
> American definition of billion at this point in time.
>
> https://www.plainenglish.co.uk/campaigning/past-campaigns/budget/how-much-is-a-billion.html
>

It’s even worse if Google shows you an article from an Indian paper where
they talk about krors of lakhs. Or is that lakhs of krors?

--
Pete

On Thu, 16 Feb 2023 15:13:00 GMT
scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) wrote:

> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> writes:
> >On Wed, 15 Feb 2023 21:40:56 GMT

> > Yes it is, but that growth is only essential so that the money
> >manipulators can cream off their cut for doing nothing productive.
>
> Yes, and they're the ones who write the rules, sadly.

Very true - but more and more seem to be questioning and
complaining about them. Documentaries are appearing laying it all out now.
I suspect their days are numbered.

> https://prospect.org/power/mapping-corruption-donald-trump-executive-branch/

See also Britain's Second Empire (Netflix documentary).

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/

On 16 Feb 2023 17:07:28 GMT
maus <maus@mail.com> wrote:

> Go along any road, anything pulling anything is diesel. (Or Deisel),

Nope but most are - this has more to do with the relative price per
mile of petrol and diesel which gets more important the bigger the load.
> I can't remember. The EU parliment has decided that all deisel will
> be stopped by 2030.

Also all petrol, propane and other directly fossil fuel driven
vehicles.

> Just goes to show, all the idiots are not in the US.

We *have* to stop using fossil fuels just as the guy whose just
found €500 in the street *has* to stop buying rounds while he still has
enough left for the taxi home.

The thing is the manufacturers are likely to beat them to it, by
the time 2030 rolls round I doubt there will have been any new mainstream
IC for some time. Long term it will save them a fortune IC engine
development is getting ridiculously expensive to do and they're already all
busily tooling up for EV production and rolling out their EV from scratch
designs.

The first corporate war might be international car manufacturers
fighting over access to lithium.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/

On Thu, 16 Feb 2023 12:21:39 +0000
Vir Campestris <vir.campestris@invalid.invalid> wrote:

> On 16/02/2023 10:41, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> > True, the real question is how much energy consumption per
> > capita can we sustain and what can we do with it.
>
> It's not just the energy per capita, but the number of people.
>
> In 1800 the world population was less than a billion.
> It's now over 6, and still growing.

Make that 8 but the roll off of the sigmoid is showing, it's
expected to flatten at around 10 billion.

> If we don't get that under control nothing else matters.

We can't control it, but the most effective way to influence it
seems to be to make people feel richer.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/

On Thu, 16 Feb 2023 17:13:17 GMT
scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) wrote:

> https://www.un.org/en/desa/world-population-projected-reach-98-billion-2050-and-112-billion-2100

I think there's some decimal points missing 9.8 and 11.2 I might
believe.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/

Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:

> Scott Lurndal wrote:
>
>> https://www.un.org/en/desa/world-population-projected-reach-98-billion-2050-and-112-billion-2100
>
> I think there's some decimal points missing

Tell their content management system that generates URLs from article
titles ...

maus <maus@mail.com> writes:

> On 2023-02-16, Scott Lurndal <scott@slp53.sl.home> wrote:
>
>> Well, it is over 6. Currently 7.9 billion, so pushing eight
>
> One could agree about that. How does anyone know how many there is?.
> Who counts the counters? Japan, I suppose, is a pointer, reportedly
> boys spend most of their time in their rooms, looking at games and
> porn. Also the highest use of adult nappies. There may a correlation
> between adult nappies and condoms :):)
>
> The girls spend most of their time on smartphones. I don't know any
> way of becoming pregnant by smart phone (The mind boggles). It may
> be on alt.risks.

An interesting observation but I have to ask: Just what does that have
to do with Hunter Biden's laptop?

--
Mike Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada

On Thu, 16 Feb 2023 19:39:12 +0000
Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:

> Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>
> > Scott Lurndal wrote:
> >
> >> https://www.un.org/en/desa/world-population-projected-reach-98-billion-2050-and-112-billion-2100
> >
> > I think there's some decimal points missing
>
> Tell their content management system that generates URLs from article
> titles ...

They'd have to pay me a lot to go anywhere near it!

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/

On 2023-02-16, Vir Campestris <vir.campestris@invalid.invalid> wrote:

> On 16/02/2023 10:41, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>
>> True, the real question is how much energy consumption per capita
>> can we sustain and what can we do with it.
>
> It's not just the energy per capita, but the number of people.

'zackly. The planet doesn't care about per-capita consumption,
just total consumption. Conservation tries to reduce per-capita
consumption, but that only works until the general populace is
reduced to a subsistence level. If population continues to grow
beyond that point, things get ugly.

> In 1800 the world population was less than a billion.
> It's now over 6, and still growing.
>
> If we don't get that under control nothing else matters.

Hear, hear.

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | Microsoft is a dictatorship.
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | Apple is a cult.
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | Linux is anarchy.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | Pick your poison.

Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote:
>
> maus <maus@mail.com> writes:
>
>> On 2023-02-16, Scott Lurndal <scott@slp53.sl.home> wrote:
>>
>>> Well, it is over 6. Currently 7.9 billion, so pushing eight
>>
>> One could agree about that. How does anyone know how many there is?.
>> Who counts the counters? Japan, I suppose, is a pointer, reportedly
>> boys spend most of their time in their rooms, looking at games and
>> porn. Also the highest use of adult nappies. There may a correlation
>> between adult nappies and condoms :):)
>>
>> The girls spend most of their time on smartphones. I don't know any
>> way of becoming pregnant by smart phone (The mind boggles). It may
>> be on alt.risks.
>
> An interesting observation but I have to ask: Just what does that have
> to do with Hunter Biden's laptop?
>
>

Hunter’s laptop has to do with EVERYTHING. I think, if you check, you’ll
see he has some stuff about spy balloons there too.

--
Pete

Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
> On 16 Feb 2023 17:07:28 GMT
> maus <maus@mail.com> wrote:
>
>> Go along any road, anything pulling anything is diesel. (Or Deisel),
>
> Nope but most are - this has more to do with the relative price per
> mile of petrol and diesel which gets more important the bigger the load.
>
>> I can't remember. The EU parliment has decided that all deisel will
>> be stopped by 2030.
>
> Also all petrol, propane and other directly fossil fuel driven
> vehicles.
>
>> Just goes to show, all the idiots are not in the US.
>
> We *have* to stop using fossil fuels just as the guy whose just
> found €500 in the street *has* to stop buying rounds while he still has
> enough left for the taxi home.
>
> The thing is the manufacturers are likely to beat them to it, by
> the time 2030 rolls round I doubt there will have been any new mainstream
> IC for some time. Long term it will save them a fortune IC engine
> development is getting ridiculously expensive to do and they're already all
> busily tooling up for EV production and rolling out their EV from scratch
> designs.
>
> The first corporate war might be international car manufacturers
> fighting over access to lithium.
>

I might still be around by 2030, but I probably won’t be buying a new car
then. Possibly a used car, but they’re going to have to pry my gas-powered
car from my cold dead hands (or make EVs an improvement on ICs, which is a
very long shot).

--
Pete

On 2023-02-16 22:13, Peter Flass wrote:
> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>> On 16 Feb 2023 17:07:28 GMT
>> maus <maus@mail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Go along any road, anything pulling anything is diesel. (Or Deisel),
>>
>> Nope but most are - this has more to do with the relative price per
>> mile of petrol and diesel which gets more important the bigger the load.
>>
>>> I can't remember. The EU parliment has decided that all deisel will
>>> be stopped by 2030.
>>
>> Also all petrol, propane and other directly fossil fuel driven
>> vehicles.
>>
>>> Just goes to show, all the idiots are not in the US.
>>
>> We *have* to stop using fossil fuels just as the guy whose just
>> found €500 in the street *has* to stop buying rounds while he still has
>> enough left for the taxi home.
>>
>> The thing is the manufacturers are likely to beat them to it, by
>> the time 2030 rolls round I doubt there will have been any new mainstream
>> IC for some time. Long term it will save them a fortune IC engine
>> development is getting ridiculously expensive to do and they're already all
>> busily tooling up for EV production and rolling out their EV from scratch
>> designs.
>>
>> The first corporate war might be international car manufacturers
>> fighting over access to lithium.
>>
>
> I might still be around by 2030, but I probably won’t be buying a new car
> then. Possibly a used car, but they’re going to have to pry my gas-powered
> car from my cold dead hands (or make EVs an improvement on ICs, which is a
> very long shot).

You can keep using your ICE (in Europe) for years. Till 2050. Then you
won't be able, not because they'll pry it from your cold dead hands, but
because you will not be able to buy petrol or diesel.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

On Thu, 16 Feb 2023 14:13:20 -0700
Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:

> (or make EVs an improvement on ICs, which is a very long shot).

In many ways they already are a big improvement on ICEs. In fact
apart from the range available with a full tank and being cheaper I can't
think of a single advantage for IC based cars.

The current crop of EVs have more range than I care to drive in a
day and far more than I usually drive and the lower running costs will in
due course cancel out the higher purchase cost so those advantages are more
illusion than fact. They're also getting cheaper - especially with the
Chinese getting into the market.

There are far fewer moving parts so there's much less regular
maintenance.

They accelerate faster than IC based cars.

Those designed for towing do so *extremely* well, there's a video
of Tesla X pulling a 40 tonne artic up hill in snow!

They usually have a very low centre of gravity from putting the
batteries down as low as possible - which makes for good handling.

Many these days have mains power take off (V2L) which is handy for
power tools on the move.

They don't emit toxic fumes.

Finally, unless you're driving a long distance in one day you never
have to go into one of those dirty, smelly filling stations because you get
all the charging done at home, at night.

So I'm curious - just what are the big advantages of IC cars ?

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/

On Thu, 16 Feb 2023 22:40:12 +0100
"Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

> You can keep using your ICE (in Europe) for years. Till 2050. Then you
> won't be able, not because they'll pry it from your cold dead hands, but
> because you will not be able to buy petrol or diesel.

If it's a diesel then it should be easy enough to run it on home
made biodiesel - making instructions and even kits are easily available
online, try not to burn down the house.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/

On 2023-02-16, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Scott Lurndal <scott@slp53.sl.home> wrote:
>> johnson <root@example.net> writes:
>>> On 2023-02-16, D.J <chucktheouch@gmnol.com> wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 16 Feb 2023 12:21:39 +0000, Vir Campestris
>>>> <vir.campestris@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>>>> On 16/02/2023 10:41, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>>>>>> True, the real question is how much energy consumption per capita
>>>>>> can we sustain and what can we do with it.
>>>>>
>>>>> It's not just the energy per capita, but the number of people.
>>>>>
>>>>> In 1800 the world population was less than a billion.
>>>>> It's now over 6, and still growing.
>>>>>
>>>>> If we don't get that under control nothing else matters.
>>>>
>>>> 8 billion, recent figures.
>>>
>>> yes, American 'billions'
>>
>> It's my understanding that even the British have accepted the
>> American definition of billion at this point in time.
>>
>> https://www.plainenglish.co.uk/campaigning/past-campaigns/budget/how-much-is-a-billion.html
>>
>
> It’s even worse if Google shows you an article from an Indian paper where
> they talk about krors of lakhs. Or is that lakhs of krors?
>

crores

To: Ahem A Rivet's Shot
-=> Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote to alt.folklore.computers <=-

AAS> If it's a diesel then it should be easy enough to run it on
AAS> home made biodiesel - making instructions and even kits are easily
AAS> available online, try not to burn down the house.

So, after the Motor Law [1], instead of a Red Barchetta,, it'll be a 1980s
Mercedes 300D that the kid takes out for joy rides?

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Barchetta

kurt weiske | kweiske at realitycheckbbs dot org
| http://realitycheckbbs.org
| 1:218/700@fidonet

.... "The swift blade penetrates the salad."
--- MultiMail/Win v0.52
--- Synchronet 3.20a-Win32 NewsLink 1.113
* realitycheckBBS - Aptos, CA - telnet://realitycheckbbs.org

On Fri, 17 Feb 2023 07:21:00 -0800
"Kurt Weiske" <kurt.weiske@realitycheckbbs.org.remove-8e2-this> wrote:

> To: Ahem A Rivet's Shot
> -=> Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote to alt.folklore.computers <=-
>
> AAS> If it's a diesel then it should be easy enough to run it on
> AAS> home made biodiesel - making instructions and even kits are easily
> AAS> available online, try not to burn down the house.
>
> So, after the Motor Law [1], instead of a Red Barchetta,, it'll be a 1980s
> Mercedes 300D that the kid takes out for joy rides?

Well perhaps, but a Tesla Roadster is a pretty good Red Barchetta
and if they ever do the promised version with a cold gas thruster pack[1]
replacing the back seats it will make any previous sports car look like a
kids toy. I'm not holding my breath, I won't be surprised if it never
appears.

Failing that the Porche Taycan 4S is not exactly slow off the mark.

There are more options and will no doubt be far more by the time
2030 rolls round.

[1] 3G of thrust in any direction *including* straight up.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/

Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
> On Thu, 16 Feb 2023 14:13:20 -0700
> Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> (or make EVs an improvement on ICs, which is a very long shot).
>
> In many ways they already are a big improvement on ICEs. In fact
> apart from the range available with a full tank and being cheaper I can't
> think of a single advantage for IC based cars.

Range is a biggie, also recharging time. Not everyone has access to a
charger at home. once EVs become more common support infrastructure will
start showing signs of stress.

--
Pete

Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> writes:
>Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>> On Thu, 16 Feb 2023 14:13:20 -0700
>> Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> (or make EVs an improvement on ICs, which is a very long shot).
>>
>> In many ways they already are a big improvement on ICEs. In fact
>> apart from the range available with a full tank and being cheaper I can't
>> think of a single advantage for IC based cars.
>
>Range is a biggie, also recharging time.

Not a particular biggie - ranges are approaching 500 miles;
that's a good 8 to 10 hours of driving time. A stop for
30 minutes half-way through for lunch or a picnic at
a rest area would be a nice break, and you'll get a
charge while eating.

>Not everyone has access to a
>charger at home.

That's true today, however even fewer have a gas station
at their home either. Rather a wash, don't you think?

Charge times are becoming more competitive with gas tank
fill times.

> once EVs become more common support infrastructure will
>start showing signs of stress.

Or the support structures will be built out to prevent
stress - a significant part of the recently passed
Infrastructure Investment act.

It's pretty clear that the car manufacturers are all
on board (simplifies the process of building a vehicle,
that's for sure).

On 2023-02-17, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 16 Feb 2023 14:13:20 -0700
>> Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> (or make EVs an improvement on ICs, which is a very long shot).
>>
>> In many ways they already are a big improvement on ICEs. In fact
>> apart from the range available with a full tank and being cheaper I can't
>> think of a single advantage for IC based cars.
>
> Range is a biggie, also recharging time. Not everyone has access to a
> charger at home. once EVs become more common support infrastructure will
> start showing signs of stress.

Although you can charge at home overnight without needing new hardware,
all that extra load on the electrical grid will indeed cause problems.
Here in B.C. we have lots of hydro power, but most new capacity is
earmarked for LNG production or sales to California.

Another factor that isn't yet fully appreciated is battery life.
EVs haven't been around long enough for a significant number of
batteries to wear out, so we have yet to find out exactly what
is involved in amortizing a $25,000 replacement battery.

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | Microsoft is a dictatorship.
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | Apple is a cult.
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | Linux is anarchy.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | Pick your poison.

On Sat, 18 Feb 2023 03:02:10 GMT
Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:

> Although you can charge at home overnight without needing new hardware,
> all that extra load on the electrical grid will indeed cause problems.

No it doesn't the grid is running way under capacity at night.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/

On Fri, 17 Feb 2023 16:33:29 -0700
Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
> > On Thu, 16 Feb 2023 14:13:20 -0700
> > Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> >> (or make EVs an improvement on ICs, which is a very long shot).
> >
> > In many ways they already are a big improvement on ICEs. In fact
> > apart from the range available with a full tank and being cheaper I
> > can't think of a single advantage for IC based cars.
>
> Range is a biggie,

Range is not a biggie! Pretty much every EV on the market has more
range than anyone sane would drive in a day and way more than anyone should
drive without a good break.

> also recharging time.

For overnight it doesn't matter and the charging time at high speed
chargers is around coffee and snack time on most of the current crop of
EVs. So no charging time is not a biggie.

> Not everyone has access to a charger at home.

For those that do it's all advantages, but yes if you can't charge
at home they're less attractive.

That is a solvable problem and not a problem with the cars,
everyone has to park somewhere, providing a charge point that activates at
night by every parking spot shouldn't be hard.

> once EVs become more
> common support infrastructure will start showing signs of stress.

Why ? The grid that can take everyone cooking an evening meal in
the same narrow window should have no trouble delivering a few kilowatts
to each car at a steady drain overnight when nearly *all* the big consumers
are idle. If the car is at home during the day then a solar porch makes a
*lot* of sense and makes the car largely independent of the infrastructure.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/