D.J. <chucktheouch@gmnol.com> writes:
> The Cray YMP-2 had a non-conductive fluid that flowed across the
> circuit boards, then out to a head exchanger.

IBM water cooled machines had flow sensor on inboard fluid side but not
on outboard side of heat exchanger ... and a customer machine outboard
side lost water flow ... by the time the thermal sensor registered
temperature was increasing (and shutoff power) ... it was too late and
circuits fried. All heat exchangers were then retrofitted with flow
sensor on the outboard side.

as periodically mentioned, during Future System project (in first half
of 70s), 370 projects were being shutdown (FS was going to completely
replace 370s and completely different). When FS imploded there was mad
rush to get stuff back into the 370 product pipelines, including kicking
off quick&dirty 3033 & 3081 in parallel.
http://www.jfsowa.com/computer/memo125.htm

The 370 emulator minus the FS microcode was eventually sold in 1980 as
as the IBM 3081. The ratio of the amount of circuitry in the 3081 to its
performance was significantly worse than other IBM systems of the time;
its price/performance ratio wasn't quite so bad because IBM had to cut
the price to be competitive. The major competition at the time was from
Amdahl Systems -- a company founded by Gene Amdahl, who left IBM
shortly before the FS project began, when his plans for the Advanced
Computer System (ACS) were killed. The Amdahl machine was indeed
superior to the 3081 in price/performance and spectaculary superior in
terms of performance compared to the amount of circuitry.]

.... snip ...

the enormous number of circuits for 3081 helped motivate TCMs ... to
pack them in reasonable sized physical volume
https://www.ibm.com/ibm/history/exhibits/vintage/vintage_4506VV2137.html

.... note above marketing respinning the enormous number of circuits,
also the increased heat density significantly exacerbated sensitivity to
loss of cooling.

Note initial 3081D was two processor claiming 5mips/processor (although
several benchmarks were slower than 4.5mips 3033). IBM then doubled the
cache size for 3081K claiming 7mips/processor (aka from improved cache
hit rate, with some of those benchmarks now equivalent to 4.5mips 3033
or slightly better, see previous post increasingly machine throughput
was becoming increasingly sensitive to cache miss and wating on memory)
.... or two processor aggregate of 14mips claimed. By comparison, the
single processor Amdahl benchmarked at around 13mips.

shutdown of ACS/360
https://people.cs.clemson.edu/~mark/acs_end.html

--
virtualization experience starting Jan1968, online at home since Mar1970

On 24/12/2022 17:17, D.J. wrote:
> The Cray YMP-2 had a non-conductive fluid that flowed across the
> circuit boards, then out to a head exchanger.

Liquid cooling is not uncommon.

Boiling liquid cooling has all sorts of problems, which is what Steve
suggested.

Andy

On 2022-12-30, Vir Campestris <vir.campestris@invalid.invalid> wrote:

> On 24/12/2022 17:17, D.J. wrote:
>
>> The Cray YMP-2 had a non-conductive fluid that flowed across the
>> circuit boards, then out to a head exchanger.
>
> Liquid cooling is not uncommon.
>
> Boiling liquid cooling has all sorts of problems, which is what Steve
> suggested.

I can't help but visualize a car pulled over to the side of the road
with its radiator boiling over. Maybe Tesla will bring it back.

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | Microsoft is a dictatorship.
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | Apple is a cult.
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | Linux is anarchy.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | Pick your poison.

D.J <chucktheouch@gmnol.com> schrieb:
> On Sat, 24 Dec 2022 11:54:10 +0000, Vir Campestris
><vir.campestris@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>On 23/12/2022 21:42, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>>> I think the cleverest twist in system cooling has to be the trick of
>>> immersing the whole thing in an inert fluid that boils at 50C with a
>>> fan assisted condenser at the top.
>>
>>The problem with that is hot spots under the bubbles. You'll need a
>>decent heat spreader too.
>>
>>Andy
>
> The Cray YMP-2 had a non-conductive fluid that flowed across the
> circuit boards, then out to a head exchanger.

Not sure I'd want to have my head exchanged, I'd stay well clear
of that machine :-)

On Friday, March 4, 2022 at 12:06:39 PM UTC-7, Peter Flass wrote:

> It would have to be hard to tell, since the VAX hardware was a lot faster
> than the PDP-10. I enjoyed working with both systems.

I briefly used OpenVMS, and I noted one feature that it had because
VAX hardware was modern and fast... and thus it had very large disk
files.

You could put square brackets after a file name, and get previous
versions of the file. I'm pretty sure they wouldn't have offered _that_
facility with TOPS-10 or TOPS-20.

Otherwise - the operating system was a way to ask for the
program you wanted to run by name. As long as it wasn't as
incomprehensible as IBM's JCL for OS/360, for the most part,
they're all good... but _one_ notable feature of the PDP-10
environment is the text editor TECO, which was the inspiration
for EMACS.

John Savard

On Fri, 30 Dec 2022 17:06:35 +0000, Vir Campestris
<vir.campestris@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>On 24/12/2022 17:17, D.J. wrote:
>> The Cray YMP-2 had a non-conductive fluid that flowed across the
>> circuit boards, then out to a head exchanger.
>
>Liquid cooling is not uncommon.
>
>Boiling liquid cooling has all sorts of problems, which is what Steve
>suggested.
>
>Andy

Yeah, I can see that would be a problem if a leak happened.
--
Jim

On 2022-12-30, Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>
> but _one_ notable feature of the PDP-10 environment is the text editor
> TECO, which was the inspiration for EMACS.

Wasn't EMACS originally implemented in TECO macros? Hence the name,
"Editing MACroS".

Niklas
--
You know you're in trouble when the Russians are adding safety
features to your design.
-- Maciej Ceglowski on Buran, the Space Shuttle clone

On Fri, 30 Dec 2022 20:22:44 -0000 (UTC), Thomas Koenig
<tkoenig@netcologne.de> wrote:
>D.J <chucktheouch@gmnol.com> schrieb:
>> On Sat, 24 Dec 2022 11:54:10 +0000, Vir Campestris
>><vir.campestris@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>>On 23/12/2022 21:42, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>>>> I think the cleverest twist in system cooling has to be the trick of
>>>> immersing the whole thing in an inert fluid that boils at 50C with a
>>>> fan assisted condenser at the top.
>>>
>>>The problem with that is hot spots under the bubbles. You'll need a
>>>decent heat spreader too.
>>>
>>>Andy
>>
>> The Cray YMP-2 had a non-conductive fluid that flowed across the
>> circuit boards, then out to a head exchanger.
>
>Not sure I'd want to have my head exchanged, I'd stay well clear
>of that machine :-)

Yeah, typo. I did correct it, but maybe the correction didn't make it.
Too few new charactrers.
--
Jim

On 2022-12-30, Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> wrote:

> D.J <chucktheouch@gmnol.com> schrieb:
>
>> On Sat, 24 Dec 2022 11:54:10 +0000, Vir Campestris
>> <vir.campestris@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> On 23/12/2022 21:42, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>>>
>>>> I think the cleverest twist in system cooling has to be the trick of
>>>> immersing the whole thing in an inert fluid that boils at 50C with a
>>>> fan assisted condenser at the top.
>>>
>>> The problem with that is hot spots under the bubbles. You'll need a
>>> decent heat spreader too.
>>
>> The Cray YMP-2 had a non-conductive fluid that flowed across the
>> circuit boards, then out to a head exchanger.
>
> Not sure I'd want to have my head exchanged, I'd stay well clear
> of that machine :-)

This reminds me of a couple of scenes from _Red Dwarf_
(perhaps with a bit of _Sleeper_ thrown in for good measure).

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | Microsoft is a dictatorship.
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | Apple is a cult.
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | Linux is anarchy.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | Pick your poison.

On 2022-12-30, Niklas Karlsson <nikke.karlsson@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 2022-12-30, Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>
>> but _one_ notable feature of the PDP-10 environment is the text editor
>> TECO, which was the inspiration for EMACS.
>
> Wasn't EMACS originally implemented in TECO macros? Hence the name,
> "Editing MACroS".

I thought it was "Eight Megabytes And Constantly Swapping".

> You know you're in trouble when the Russians are adding safety
> features to your design.
> -- Maciej Ceglowski on Buran, the Space Shuttle clone

They could probably do it with the 737 MAX, too.

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | Microsoft is a dictatorship.
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | Apple is a cult.
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | Linux is anarchy.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | Pick your poison.

On 2022-12-30, Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
> On 2022-12-30, Niklas Karlsson <nikke.karlsson@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On 2022-12-30, Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>>
>>> but _one_ notable feature of the PDP-10 environment is the text editor
>>> TECO, which was the inspiration for EMACS.
>>
>> Wasn't EMACS originally implemented in TECO macros? Hence the name,
>> "Editing MACroS".
>
> I thought it was "Eight Megabytes And Constantly Swapping".

Well, yes, that's the _real_ name. But not the official story. :-)

"Emacs is a fine operating system, but lacks a decent text editor," as
some say.

I'm not really an Emacs person (don't much care what others edit with,
though), but I do run it for one sole purpose. There's a domestically
developed bulletin board system called KOM, and the most feature-rich
client is implemented in Emacs LISP.

>> You know you're in trouble when the Russians are adding safety
>> features to your design.
>> -- Maciej Ceglowski on Buran, the Space Shuttle clone
>
> They could probably do it with the 737 MAX, too.

Probably.

> Microsoft is a dictatorship.
> Apple is a cult.
> Linux is anarchy.
> Pick your poison.

I mix and match. I run Windows at home for games, with a Linux shell
server that I use for, among other things, usenet. My workstation at
work is a Mac, and the servers are all Linux.

I also have an iPhone for private use and an Android phone for work.

I like to keep up to date with all the major factions.

Niklas
--
Microsoft's software "Wizards" show that their marketing department
is envisioning Tolkien but their coders are more into Pratchett.
-- Anthony de Boer, asr

Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> writes:

> On Friday, March 4, 2022 at 12:06:39 PM UTC-7, Peter Flass wrote:

>> It would have to be hard to tell, since the VAX hardware was a lot faster
>> than the PDP-10. I enjoyed working with both systems.

The VAX-11/780 wished it was as fast as the PDP-10.

> they're all good... but _one_ notable feature of the PDP-10
> environment is the text editor TECO, which was the inspiration
> for EMACS.

TECO originated on the PDP-1 at MIT. The name was originally an acronym for
"Tape Editor and COrrector" (referring to paper tape on the Friden Flexowriter).
DEC did implementations for each architecture, and MIT did their own
implementations for the PDP-6 and PDP-10 (running their own OS, the
Incompatible Timesharing System).

EMACS was implemented in the MIT dialect for the PDP-10, after a real-time
video mode was created for that TECO.

Old .sig:

Rich Alderson Last LOTS Tops-20 Systems Programmer, 1984-1991
Current maintainer, MIT TECO EMACS (v. 170)
last name @ XKL dot COM Customer Interface, XKL LLC

--
Rich Alderson news@alderson.users.panix.com
Audendum est, et veritas investiganda; quam etiamsi non assequamur,
omnino tamen proprius, quam nunc sumus, ad eam perveniemus.
--Galen

Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
> On Friday, March 4, 2022 at 12:06:39 PM UTC-7, Peter Flass wrote:
>
>> It would have to be hard to tell, since the VAX hardware was a lot faster
>> than the PDP-10. I enjoyed working with both systems.
>
> I briefly used OpenVMS, and I noted one feature that it had because
> VAX hardware was modern and fast... and thus it had very large disk
> files.
>
> You could put square brackets after a file name, and get previous
> versions of the file. I'm pretty sure they wouldn't have offered _that_
> facility with TOPS-10 or TOPS-20.

TOPS-20 supports file versioning. I had to look this up, because memory
begins to fail after 50 years.

--
Pete

On Friday, December 30, 2022 at 8:08:33 PM UTC-7, Peter Flass wrote:

> TOPS-20 supports file versioning. I had to look this up, because memory
> begins to fail after 50 years.

Was that something you had to specifically request, though? Because
OpenVMS basically versioned all files by default. To an extent that I
would have thought to be far too wasteful to countenance on older
systems.

John Savard

In article <k19c5jFiqf0U1@mid.individual.net>,
Niklas Karlsson <nikke.karlsson@gmail.com> wrote:
>Well, yes, that's the _real_ name. But not the official story. :-)
>
>"Emacs is a fine operating system, but lacks a decent text editor," as
>some say.
>
>I'm not really an Emacs person (don't much care what others edit with,
>though), but I do run it for one sole purpose. There's a domestically
>developed bulletin board system called KOM, and the most feature-rich
>client is implemented in Emacs LISP.

I am reminded of this (rather old) joke:

Q: What's the name of the kernel file in the GNU operating system?

A: /vmunix.el

// Christian

On 2022-12-31 09:25, Quadibloc wrote:
> On Friday, December 30, 2022 at 8:08:33 PM UTC-7, Peter Flass wrote:
>
>> TOPS-20 supports file versioning. I had to look this up, because memory
>> begins to fail after 50 years.
>
> Was that something you had to specifically request, though? Because
> OpenVMS basically versioned all files by default. To an extent that I
> would have thought to be far too wasteful to countenance on older
> systems.
>
> John Savard

TOPS-20 always have versions of files, just like VMS and RSX.
However, you could set both TOPS-20 and VMS to automatically purge older
versions.

Also, the notation was not with any square brackets.

In VMS, it is DEV:[DIRECTORY]FILENAME.EXT;VERSION
In TOPS-20, it is DEV:<DIRECTORY>FILENAME.EXT.VERSION

unless my brain suddenly developed another bit error. :-)

(VMS and RSX do also support the TOPS-20 style syntax.)

And version can be left out, which always gives you the latest version
when opening, and a new version when creating. There are some special
values possible on version as well.

Johnny