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Everyone has a purpose in life. Perhaps yours is watching television. -- David Letterman


devel / rocksolid.programming / Ideas for an Alternative Web

SubjectAuthor
* The Modern WebAnonUser
+* The Modern WebAnonUser
|`* The Modern Webanonymous
| `* The Modern WebAnonUser
|  `* The Modern Webanonymous
|   `* The Modern WebAnonUser
|    `* Re The Modern Webtrw
|     `- Re The Modern WebAnonUser
+* Ideas for an Alternative WebAnonUser
|+* Ideas for an Alternative Webanonymous
||`- Ideas for an Alternative WebAnonUser
|+* Handling MediaAnonUser
||+* Handling Mediaanonymous
|||`* Handling MediaAnonUser
||| `* Handling Mediaanonymous
|||  `- Handling MediaAnonUser
||`* Handling MediaAnonUser
|| `* Handling Mediatrw
||  `* Handling MediaAnonUser
||   `* Handling Mediatrw
||    `* Handling MediaAnonUser
||     `* Handling MediaAnonymous
||      `- Handling MediaAnonymous
|+* Handling Media with StreamsAnonUser
||`- Handling Media with StreamsAnonUser
|+* Media SanitizationAnonUser
||`- Media SanitizationAnonUser
|`* Category-Based WebAnonUser
| `* Category-Based WebAnonUser
|  +* Category-Based Webanon
|  |`* Category-Based WebAnonUser
|  | +- Category-Based WebRetro Guy
|  | `- PrototypeAnonUser
|  `* Category-Based Webanon
|   `- Category-Based WebAnonUser
+- The Modern Webtrw
`- The Modern WebAnonUser

Pages:12
Re: Handling Media

<02518ec0cf13aeb8e4eeed41b8670ff5@news.novabbs.org>

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From: Anonym...@news.novabbs.org (Anonymous)
Newsgroups: rocksolid.programming
Subject: Re: Handling Media
Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2022 06:05:46 +0000
Organization: Rocksolid Light
Message-ID: <02518ec0cf13aeb8e4eeed41b8670ff5@news.novabbs.org>
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 by: Anonymous - Wed, 6 Apr 2022 06:05 UTC

If you want a starting point for PDF specification, look at PDF/A. It's the archival format that already has most of the bloat removed. The problem with PDF is these different variants all fall under the .pdf umbrella and are not visually differentiable based on suffix, which is important in this situation.

--
Posted on Rocksolid Light

Re: Handling Media

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From: Anonym...@news.novabbs.org (Anonymous)
Newsgroups: rocksolid.programming
Subject: Re: Handling Media
Date: Sun, 8 May 2022 16:28:53 +0000
Organization: Rocksolid Light
Message-ID: <9aa680eb693fe147752f886844811703@news.novabbs.org>
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 by: Anonymous - Sun, 8 May 2022 16:28 UTC

The Gemini protocol seems like a better fit for this. It is plain text and therefore directly readable in its' original state, and it can be rendered in its own graphical browser, like Lagrange. It should listen to mime types and therefore launch image viewers and audio players externally if they are not incorporated in the gemini client itself.

The protocol is trivial to implement and could be made to function over I2P and/or tor without much problem. There are already dozens of clients and servers for it, for I2P one could utilize SAM to make a client and server for instance.

--
Posted on Rocksolid Light

The Modern Web

<7d67c77564c2cef72686df53d04f286a$1@retrobbs.i2p>

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https://novabbs.com/devel/article-flat.php?id=485&group=rocksolid.programming#485

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From: anonu...@retrobbs.rocksolidbbs.com.remove-sdc-this (AnonUser)
Newsgroups: rocksolid.programming
Subject: The Modern Web
Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2019 09:33:30 +0000
Organization: RetroBBS
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 by: AnonUser - Sun, 13 Oct 2019 09:33 UTC

To: rocksolid.programming
The modern web has become a monstrosity that is more akin to an
application distribution platform more than anything else at this point
and it is a terrible one at that.

It doesn't allow you to choose your own language, you are stuck with the
abomination of a language that is called JavaScript. W3C even stated that
WebAssembly is not meant to replace JavaScript, it is meant to complement
it. What a load of bullshit. It is not possible to access the DOM directly
via. WebAssembly. In other words, you will not be able to run other
languages without JavaScript intermingling _by design_.

It is highly inefficient and wasteful. Any program written in HTML/CSS/JS
is by default extremely resource intensive in comparison to, for example,
its C++ counterpart. It hogs your memory, wastes your CPU cycles and
drains your mobile's battery. Not only that, but on the desktop every
electron program ships their own chromium browser, which is not what one
would consider a lightweight program. Same people writing those shitty
inefficient programs are devout environmentalists. What a joke.

The modern browser is a beast. A single person can not possibly implement
a standard compliant browser on his own. Which is why we are stuck with a
few huge browsers and they all suck equally bad.

The design of the modern browser is also not one which has privacy in
mind. Data leaks through every nook and cranny. Browser fingerprinting is
really easy and very reliable. Who needs IP based tracking when you've got
a browser fingerprint that is pretty much unique? Add JavaScript into the
mix and they also get your monitors resolution and other configurations
that tie the noose around your privacy-aware neck even tighter.

The web should have been for _one_ thing, and _one_ thing only: static
interlinked documents. Everything else on top is bloat at the expense of
basically everything.

TL;DR: The modern web sucks dick.
--
Posted on RetroBBS

Re: The Modern Web

<aeb50c813e3554377f4e6a9f4f0fcf40$1@www.i2pn2.org>

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From: AnonU...@i2pn2.org (AnonUser)
Newsgroups: rocksolid.programming
Subject: Re: The Modern Web
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2019 01:27:16 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: i2pn2.org
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 by: AnonUser - Mon, 14 Oct 2019 01:27 UTC

AnonUser wrote:

> The modern browser is a beast. A single person can not possibly implement
> a standard compliant browser on his own. Which is why we are stuck with a
> few huge browsers and they all suck equally bad.

Very true, and most sites try to out perform eachother with bloat. The web
now is completely geared toward advertising and keeping viewers, content
is the last thought.

> The design of the modern browser is also not one which has privacy in
> mind. Data leaks through every nook and cranny. Browser fingerprinting is
> really easy and very reliable. Who needs IP based tracking when you've got
> a browser fingerprint that is pretty much unique? Add JavaScript into the
> mix and they also get your monitors resolution and other configurations
> that tie the noose around your privacy-aware neck even tighter.

It's interesting that browsers do not offer a simple way to block things
like screen size, browser size etc. Sites want to look more at you than
you look at them.

--
Posted on Rocksolid Light

Re: The Modern Web

<cbbf6edb90172c014d10c4ae42e30285$1@z5bqfv5v75kxy7pj.onion>

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From: anonym...@def2.anon (anonymous)
Newsgroups: rocksolid.programming
Subject: Re: The Modern Web
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2019 20:54:42 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: def2org
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 by: anonymous - Mon, 14 Oct 2019 20:54 UTC

>The web should have been for _one_ thing, and _one_ thing only: static
interlinked documents. Everything else on top is bloat at the expense of
basically everything.

Although I agree with most of what you write...
you do realize that you use a platform that goes a bit beyond what you
describe above...lol

>It's interesting that browsers do not offer a simple way to block things like
screen size, browser size etc. Sites want to look more at you than you look at
them.

tbb does that by default.
Posted on def2

Re: The Modern Web

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From: anonu...@retrobbs.rocksolidbbs.com.remove-t2a-this (AnonUser)
Newsgroups: rocksolid.programming
Subject: Re: The Modern Web
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2019 07:25:21 +0000
Organization: RetroBBS
Message-ID: <38b566f42ae0ba1dc83791b48ecc69d9$1@retrobbs.i2p>
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 by: AnonUser - Tue, 15 Oct 2019 07:25 UTC

To: anonymous
> Although I agree with most of what you write... you do realize that you use
a platform that goes a bit beyond what you describe above...lol

Yes and I believe the modern web was a big mistake which will be extremely
difficult to undo.

We should ideally use specific client programs where possible instead of
relying on the web, but the damage is already done and now it is
"convenient" because the entire infrastructure is built around these obese
browsers.

Ideally the web would have stayed static and we would be accessing
services through specialized client programs such that the browser would
only launch external programs and it would have been just as convenient
without it being monolithic, but only if the infrastructure is structured
as such. As an example, when browsing to retrobbs.i2p in an alternate
reality, the page would redirect you to nntp://retrobbs.i2p:119 and the
browser would launch an NNTP client and let it handle the rest.

Nowadays web browsers have NIH syndrome and build everything into the
browser. Case in point is the JavaScript PDF viewer in Firefox, there is
ZERO reason for it to exist inside Firefox. Launching external
applications to handle such things is not even a new idea. It has been
possible to do this for ever but apparently browser developers rather
implement their own solution and bloat their browser even further than
ship an existing solution with their browser.

I believe we need a small, lean and efficient web alternative that does
one thing and does it well. Might as well solve the whole privacy fiasco
while we are at it. The main hurdle would be to get others on board and
get them to offer their websites in an alternative format (other than
html/css/js), which will be extremely difficult.

Maybe due to all the smart phone hype some people might get on board if
sites load and render in milliseconds instead of seconds.
--
Posted on RetroBBS

Re: The Modern Web

<f8c5fb4a4b02e8aad57cbb7bf5d4a011$1@def2.i2p>

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Newsgroups: rocksolid.programming
Subject: Re: The Modern Web
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2019 18:24:42 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: anonymous - Fri, 18 Oct 2019 18:24 UTC

>The main hurdle would be to get others on board and get them to offer their
websites in an alternative format (other than html/css/js)

firstly: what is wrong with html ?
secondly: what is wrong with css ?
thirdly: what you describe sounds nice, but there is no profit in it, so
count out all commercial players. if you want text only, there are
newsgroups.
Posted on def2

Re: The Modern Web

<763a303d9f88443c45a003337129d14e$1@retrobbs.i2p>

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From: anonu...@retrobbs.rocksolidbbs.com.remove-dhv-this (AnonUser)
Newsgroups: rocksolid.programming
Subject: Re: The Modern Web
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2019 21:40:15 +0000
Organization: RetroBBS
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 by: AnonUser - Fri, 18 Oct 2019 21:40 UTC

To: anonymous
> firstly: what is wrong with html ?
> secondly: what is wrong with css ?

Both too complicated for my use case. I would also avoid HTML, simply
because of the overhead. Look up deserialization performance of XML, then
imagine that you would also have the overhead of having to keep track of
incorrect HTML and correct it (fuzzy parsing). Using existing formats also
come with certain expectations. A developer will think "It's HTML! I know
HTML!", then be gravely disappointed because none of the modern features
are implemented, leaving a bad aftertaste.

I will probably go for a simple data format that can be compiled down to
an efficient and specific binary representation, which can then be
deserialized fast and efficiently on end-user clients. The protocol in the
place of HTTP would probably be a simple one too, think something like
Gopher.

> thirdly: what you describe sounds nice, but there is no profit in it, so
count out all commercial players. if you want text only, there are newsgroups.

There is no profit in it and that is OK. I would already be happy with it
if a tiny community could form around it. I want basically a bit of rich
text with linking. It should ideally become something that anyone could
implement in a few weeks, not an entire lifetime. Stylistically it should
look modern, yet simple, something like this:
http://bettermotherfuckingwebsite.com/

Usenet is great, but it is interlinking and easy use of multimedia what
really sells the web (which could be achieved with launching external
programs...). One could probably retrofit a usenet client to do this but
that is more effort than is worth.

I have a rough draft document that I am currently working on. I need to
sort through all my ideas and come to a conclusion.
--
Posted on RetroBBS

Re: Re The Modern Web

<qodd6b$nar$1@def2.org>

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From: trw...@i2pmail.org (trw)
Newsgroups: rocksolid.programming
Subject: Re: Re The Modern Web
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2019 18:09:16 -0400
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 by: trw - Fri, 18 Oct 2019 22:09 UTC

>There is no profit in it and that is OK. I would already be happy with it if a tiny community could form around it. I want basically a bit of rich text with linking.

well, sounds good to me, although i am not sure about the ratio between effort and gain here.
feel free to use /rocksolid/programming to publish your code, or apply for your own forum if you want something with a bit more options than a thread.

would be cool to have a converter for normal (=bloated) websites to a nice clean text feed, stripping out all the annoying, unnecessary and dangerous stuff.

cheers

trw
Posted on def3

Re: Re The Modern Web

<14d37d4da3681ebf42f680e47d103603$1@retrobbs.i2p>

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From: anonu...@retrobbs.rocksolidbbs.com.remove-wk1-this (AnonUser)
Newsgroups: rocksolid.programming
Subject: Re: Re The Modern Web
Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2019 12:37:47 +0000
Organization: RetroBBS
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 by: AnonUser - Sat, 26 Oct 2019 12:37 UTC

To: trw
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA512

>well, sounds good to me, although i am not sure about the ratio between
effort and gain here.
We unfortunately don't have a real alternative to the web, so from my
perspective it's worth a shot.

I also do not think it is _that_ huge of an undertaking, I'm keeping it
simple and uncomplicated to give others the chance to write their own
implementations. I want to avoid a one-implementation standard in the long
run, if possible...

>feel free to use /rocksolid/programming to publish your code, or apply for
your own forum if you want something with a bit more options than a thread.
Thank you, I'll let you know if I need something more than a thread. I
think with the way Usenet does threading it shouldn't be an issue to
discuss ideas independently of one another easily.

>would be cool to have a converter for normal (=bloated) websites to a nice
clean text feed, stripping out all the annoying, unnecessary and dangerous
stuff.
I am still deciding in which direction to take this, but this would be
something I would also like to implement.

I'll use this opportunity to also post my public GPG key, to prevent
imposters down the line. I don't know how likely that is, but I'll just
post it here anyhow.

- -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
Comment: User-ID: crowbar <crowbar@mail.i2p>
Comment: Created: 26/10/2019 14:17
Comment: Expires: 01/01/2030 12:00
Comment: Type: 4096-bit RSA (secret key available)
Comment: Usage: Signing, Encryption, Certifying User-IDs
Comment: Fingerprint: A4460A9DE1AC2FB8DD21723427DBFF1D0324D351

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- -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
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--
Posted on RetroBBS

Ideas for an Alternative Web

<2de0b21bc8144ab9d91079b426675caf$1@retrobbs.i2p>

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https://novabbs.com/devel/article-flat.php?id=493&group=rocksolid.programming#493

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Path: i2pn2.org!rocksolid3!.POSTED.localhost!not-for-mail
From: anonu...@retrobbs.rocksolidbbs.com.remove-mfo-this (AnonUser)
Newsgroups: rocksolid.programming
Subject: Ideas for an Alternative Web
Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2019 12:58:18 +0000
Organization: RetroBBS
Message-ID: <2de0b21bc8144ab9d91079b426675caf$1@retrobbs.i2p>
References: <7d67c77564c2cef72686df53d04f286a$1@retrobbs.i2p>
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logging-data="1983"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@rocksolidbbs.com"
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To: AnonUser
X-Comment-To: AnonUser
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X-FTN-PID: Synchronet 3.17a-Linux Dec 29 2018 GCC 6.3.0
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 by: AnonUser - Sat, 26 Oct 2019 12:58 UTC

To: AnonUser
I'm going to be posting my ideas below this, maybe you guys also have some
ideas to share. The ideas should ideally be scrutinized keeping the
following priorities in mind (descending priority).

1. security
2. privacy/anonymity
3. user experience

While user experience is lowest, I still want something that is usable by
the average mortal. The elderly should ideally also be able to use it with
very low schooling (if any at all). Preferably, for Windows, all you would
need to do is download and run. On Linux based operating systems you
should only have to install it through a package manager and it should be
good to go.

I want to avoid unnecessary pre-configuration by the user. Security and
anonymity should be the default configuration, but experienced users
should also be able to override any security measures if they really want
to.
--
Posted on RetroBBS

Re: Ideas for an Alternative Web

<f5d9d491dc7b4052e0547f8a82c8c2c3$1@z5bqfv5v75kxy7pj.onion>

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https://novabbs.com/devel/article-flat.php?id=494&group=rocksolid.programming#494

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Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!rocksolid2!def2!.POSTED.localhost!not-for-mail
From: anonym...@def2.anon (anonymous)
Newsgroups: rocksolid.programming
Subject: Re: Ideas for an Alternative Web
Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2019 20:46:52 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: def2org
Message-ID: <f5d9d491dc7b4052e0547f8a82c8c2c3$1@z5bqfv5v75kxy7pj.onion>
References: <7d67c77564c2cef72686df53d04f286a$1@retrobbs.i2p> <2de0b21bc8144ab9d91079b426675caf$1@retrobbs.i2p>
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 by: anonymous - Sat, 26 Oct 2019 20:46 UTC

while i agree with your priorities, i think you need to define a bit more
on which level you want to work. there is a lot of code already,
addressing all three targets that you listed on different levels.
reinventing everything seems pointless imo, so you need to decide what
protocols you are going to use to achieve your purpose, and at which point
you will implement your own code.
i guess this will be part of your stacK:

http/https
tor
tcp

then on top you will parse the content and do something with it.

just guessing here, really...
Posted on def2

Re: Ideas for an Alternative Web

<3d5f9163e81f16b73813b26b2d17c095$1@retrobbs.i2p>

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https://novabbs.com/devel/article-flat.php?id=495&group=rocksolid.programming#495

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From: anonu...@retrobbs.rocksolidbbs.com.remove-4d2-this (AnonUser)
Newsgroups: rocksolid.programming
Subject: Re: Ideas for an Alternative Web
Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2019 13:12:45 +0000
Organization: RetroBBS
Message-ID: <3d5f9163e81f16b73813b26b2d17c095$1@retrobbs.i2p>
References: <f5d9d491dc7b4052e0547f8a82c8c2c3$1@z5bqfv5v75kxy7pj.onion>
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To: anonymous
X-Comment-To: anonymous
In-Reply-To: <f5d9d491dc7b4052e0547f8a82c8c2c3$1@z5bqfv5v75kxy7pj.onion>
X-FTN-PID: Synchronet 3.17a-Linux Dec 29 2018 GCC 6.3.0
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 by: AnonUser - Sun, 27 Oct 2019 13:12 UTC

To: anonymous
I will post my ideas in detail when I find the time to do so. I have a lot
going on right now so I wasn't able to do that.

>i guess this will be part of your stacK:

>http/https
>tor
>tcp

Somthing like this, I'm thinking:

custom protocol
Tor and/or I2P
TCP / UDP

HTTP and the way current browsers use it is what I want to avoid. I would
basically remove everything from the HTTP protocol and I'm then left with
something that doesn't even resemble HTTP in the slightest, so I might as
well go with something custom. I'm thinking something along the lines of
Gopher, but even that has indices that are not required, because it will
work differently.

TLS or something similar isn't needed right now, as I intend it only to be
used through Tor or I2P (at least for now). It will only be required if it
gets somewhat popular and people actually want to use it on the clearnet.

I'm not going to reinvent the wheel for Tor or I2P, they are good
anonymization networks that work just fine.

>then on top you will parse the content and do something with it.

Yes, I'm still working out some ideas on "how" it should be done. I'll
post one of my ideas on how to handle media after this.
--
Posted on RetroBBS

Handling Media

<28219f6dd0b0abdeb2d53ce5d7ac946e$1@retrobbs.i2p>

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https://novabbs.com/devel/article-flat.php?id=496&group=rocksolid.programming#496

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Path: i2pn2.org!rocksolid3!.POSTED.localhost!not-for-mail
From: anonu...@retrobbs.rocksolidbbs.com.remove-cxc-this (AnonUser)
Newsgroups: rocksolid.programming
Subject: Handling Media
Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2019 14:20:23 +0000
Organization: RetroBBS
Message-ID: <28219f6dd0b0abdeb2d53ce5d7ac946e$1@retrobbs.i2p>
References: <2de0b21bc8144ab9d91079b426675caf$1@retrobbs.i2p>
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To: AnonUser
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X-FTN-PID: Synchronet 3.17a-Linux Dec 29 2018 GCC 6.3.0
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 by: AnonUser - Sun, 27 Oct 2019 14:20 UTC

To: AnonUser
Having a static web on its own with text-only would solve all the privacy
and bloat issues we are having, but we would like a lot of the convenience
of current browsers without the privacy, anonymity and performance issues.

This can be achieved by launching external programs which we trust, rather
than having the browser handle everything. The idea isn't by all means
new, and browsers were able to do this for practically ever. To view an
image, you could download an image and then make your browser launch your
favorite image viewer to display that image.

There is however a problem with this approach: it spawns new windows and
that image is no longer part of the "document". We've also had the ability
to display text and other media like images side-by-side inside the
browser for ages.

What we do _not_ have, is the ability to replace our browsers internal
image viewer easily. We also can not sandbox it externally, because it is
part of the browser itself.

Here's what I'm proposing:

The browser that I envision, downloads media and launches an external
program to open said media, but it embeds the external program (using the
window manager) optionally and on demand as if they were part of the
browser itself.

This has some nice properties:

* Browser becomes very lean
* Image (or media in general) viewing functionality is _completely_
separate from the browser, while at the same time it looks as if it were
part of the browser to the user
* User can easily allow/disallow media entirely
* User has the ability to easily swap his image viewer (or media viewers)
to a different one
* We do not have to modify existing external programs, they will work
as-is with our browser
* We have the ability to optionally sandbox media independently of the
browser

Note on sandboxing and Linux: if we use X11 then it's pretty pointless
with regards to security, but sandboxing on Wayland could be interesting.
Sandboxing would however be helpful in ensuring no data can accidentally
leak over the network by removing any networking permissions the external
program would otherwise have.

Note on embedding: it's trivial to embed windows in X11 and Microsoft
Windows into other windows. I do not know if it's trivial on OS X, iOS and
Android, which I will have to look into, as I would like the browser to
also run on those.

The same idea can be applied to other media and is not limited to images,
for example: video, audio, etc.

I also thought about the possible issues with this idea:

* The external programs may have exploits and we can not guarantee that
they don't, without auditing them ourselves (this is a hard problem)
* The user can, at his own risk, use different programs for which we can't
guarantee anything
* As mentioned earlier, sandboxing is nice but on Linux with X11 it is
quite pointless with regards to security.

Thoughts/criticisms/comments on this are welcome and appreciated.
--
Posted on RetroBBS

Re: Handling Media

<c74cdc91d58523b3f3a3fba087453187$1@z5bqfv5v75kxy7pj.onion>

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https://novabbs.com/devel/article-flat.php?id=497&group=rocksolid.programming#497

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From: anonym...@def2.anon (anonymous)
Newsgroups: rocksolid.programming
Subject: Re: Handling Media
Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2019 17:01:20 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: def2org
Message-ID: <c74cdc91d58523b3f3a3fba087453187$1@z5bqfv5v75kxy7pj.onion>
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 by: anonymous - Sun, 27 Oct 2019 17:01 UTC

>as I would like the browser to also run on those.

this suggest the language to be used to be java, python or something like
that (unless you want to maintain a separate codebase for each system).

Posted on def2

Re: Handling Media

<a8e77a815a22a49bfd89665b3f84d3b1$1@retrobbs.i2p>

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https://novabbs.com/devel/article-flat.php?id=498&group=rocksolid.programming#498

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From: anonu...@retrobbs.rocksolidbbs.com.remove-on5-this (AnonUser)
Newsgroups: rocksolid.programming
Subject: Re: Handling Media
Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2019 23:22:09 +0000
Organization: RetroBBS
Message-ID: <a8e77a815a22a49bfd89665b3f84d3b1$1@retrobbs.i2p>
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To: anonymous
X-Comment-To: anonymous
In-Reply-To: <c74cdc91d58523b3f3a3fba087453187$1@z5bqfv5v75kxy7pj.onion>
X-FTN-PID: Synchronet 3.17a-Linux Dec 29 2018 GCC 6.3.0
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 by: AnonUser - Sun, 27 Oct 2019 23:22 UTC

To: anonymous
>this suggest the language to be used to be java, python or something like
that (unless you want to maintain a separate codebase for each system).
The two languages that mainly come in question for me are: Haskell and
C++. I would prefer a single codebase, but maybe I'll have to bite the
bullet and go with separate codebases down the line. I did read that the
developers of subsurface were able to reuse their entire core logic on
desktop and mobile operating systems. I think they did it by having their
core logic as a shared native library, though I did not read into the
specifics.

Haskell is my preferred language because of the anal type safety and
decent performance. However, I will write a prototype before I start
implementing the browser to see if I can achieve my desired performance
and memory usage. If I'm not able to, then I will either try something
like Ivory (typesafe Haskell eDSL to generate C) or go with C++. I'm not
dead set on Haskell, but I would highly prefer it.

As for the operating systems themselves:
In the beginning I'll likely start off with a Linux prototype and a
Windows port shortly after I have the core functionality implemented. It
will be ported to the other operating systems later down the line, getting
Linux and Windows in a usable state is higher priority simply because the
implementation and the ideas need to be tested in practice first.
--
Posted on RetroBBS

Re: Handling Media

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From: anonym...@def2.anon (anonymous)
Newsgroups: rocksolid.programming
Subject: Re: Handling Media
Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2019 06:21:02 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: def2org
Message-ID: <7597708ae2e6c28bb64633d7477d02fe$1@z5bqfv5v75kxy7pj.onion>
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 by: anonymous - Mon, 28 Oct 2019 06:21 UTC

>Haskell is my preferred language because of the anal type safety

For anal safety use patience, a good rubber and lots of lube...lol
Posted on def2

Re: Handling Media

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Newsgroups: rocksolid.programming
Subject: Re: Handling Media
Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2019 13:23:52 +0000
Organization: RetroBBS
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To: anonymous
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 by: AnonUser - Mon, 28 Oct 2019 13:23 UTC

To: anonymous
>For anal safety use patience, a good rubber and lots of lube...lol

I will take your word for it, you seem to be very experienced in that
matter lol.
--
Posted on RetroBBS

Handling Media with Streams

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From: anonu...@retrobbs.rocksolidbbs.com.remove-10bd-this (AnonUser)
Newsgroups: rocksolid.programming
Subject: Handling Media with Streams
Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2019 18:26:24 +0000
Organization: RetroBBS
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 by: AnonUser - Thu, 31 Oct 2019 18:26 UTC

To: AnonUser
With the first method I described using existing external programs to
handle the media for us by launching them in a sandbox with command line
parameters to open the downloaded media. This method is basically like the
first, but instead of downloading the file we provide a standardized
stream API to access the file and/or content through the browser.

In this situation the browser will merely act as a gateway to the media.
If the browser needs to display an image, then it would launch an external
program and give it a local port to connect to. From there on the program
will communicate with the browser and receive the media as a stream of
bytes.

The advantages of using this approach are:

* standardized way to interact with external programs, instead of using
command line parameters which are program specific (would likely require
"launch profiles" for external programs)
* live-media such as live streams can be easily proxied through without
requiring a separate mechanism like with the first idea
* it would be easy to extend the browser to act as a transparent proxy for
certain types of interactive media like IRC, through which all data is
sanitized for anonymity (for example: when the user click on an IRC media
link, the browser provides a local port through which the IRC client will
connect through and the browser acts as a benevolent man in the middle)

The possible problems and or disadvantages I can see are:

* external program developers will have to implement our stream API for
certain types of media. The chicken and egg problem of popularity is going
to require us to implement support for it in external programs (extra work)
* does it really make much of a difference in the end? compared to the
first idea it's basically the same but just a different method to pass on
data.

I suppose this would be the overall the "cleaner" method to implement
media handling, but would also require a lot more work than with the
initial idea. I do not know if the amount of work is worth it in the end.
Maybe extending the first idea with benevolent man-in-the-middle
capabilities for certain interactive media (for example IRC) would be a
more realistic approach than shoehorning everything to use a stream API.

Media sanitization can also be done with the first idea, but I'll make a
separate thread for that.
--
Posted on RetroBBS

Media Sanitization

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From: anonu...@retrobbs.rocksolidbbs.com.remove-qkw-this (AnonUser)
Newsgroups: rocksolid.programming
Subject: Media Sanitization
Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2019 18:38:34 +0000
Organization: RetroBBS
Message-ID: <5308f6a7c48d49f461df20323873bb1a$1@retrobbs.i2p>
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 by: AnonUser - Thu, 31 Oct 2019 18:38 UTC

To: AnonUser
What do you think about media sanitization in general?

Say our browser downloads a PDF and wants to display it. Instead of
passing that PDF directly to a sandboxed external program it would first
"sanitize" it. Sanitization basically means that we take the PDF and strip
everything that is a possible security concern or could cause your
anonymity to be compromised. (e.g. links inside a PDF)

Media sanitization isn't trivial unfortunately. You need to implement a
parser for the format and also a sanitizer. You also must know how the
external program could possibly cause security issues and / or identity
leaks. Interactive media such as IRC can also be sanitized the same way,
but in this case we must implement an IRC man-in-the-middle.

PS: This wouldn't be a replacement for sandboxing, it would be in addition
to it.
--
Posted on RetroBBS

Re: Media Sanitization

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From: anonu...@retrobbs.rocksolidbbs.com.remove-p8j-this (AnonUser)
Newsgroups: rocksolid.programming
Subject: Re: Media Sanitization
Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2019 11:47:33 +0000
Organization: RetroBBS
Message-ID: <14294cee3a8c6cf4c78554b28dbfe93c$1@retrobbs.i2p>
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 by: AnonUser - Fri, 1 Nov 2019 11:47 UTC

To: AnonUser
In retrospect, scrap this idea. We'd end up basically with complexity and
bloat we don't want.
--
Posted on RetroBBS

Re: The Modern Web

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From: trw...@i2pmail.org (trw)
Newsgroups: rocksolid.programming
Subject: Re: The Modern Web
Date: Fri, 01 Nov 2019 16:12:47 -0400
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 by: trw - Fri, 1 Nov 2019 20:12 UTC

>In retrospect, scrap this idea. We'd end up basically with complexity and bloat we don't want.

my thoughts exactly. also you would increase the attack surface by far.
Posted on def3

Re: Handling Media

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Newsgroups: rocksolid.programming
Subject: Re: Handling Media
Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2019 23:59:18 +0000
Organization: RetroBBS
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 by: AnonUser - Fri, 1 Nov 2019 23:59 UTC

To: AnonUser
>The external programs may have exploits and we can not guarantee that they
don't, without auditing them ourselves (this is a hard problem)
>hard problem
This is my understatement of the year.

Image viewers:
https://cve.mitre.org/cgi-bin/cvekey.cgi?keyword=feh
https://cve.mitre.org/cgi-bin/cvekey.cgi?keyword=eye+of+gnome
https://cve.mitre.org/cgi-bin/cvekey.cgi?keyword=okular
https://cve.mitre.org/cgi-bin/cvekey.cgi?keyword=imagemagick
https://cve.mitre.org/cgi-bin/cvekey.cgi?keyword=Shotwell

Video players:
https://cve.mitre.org/cgi-bin/cvekey.cgi?keyword=mpv
https://cve.mitre.org/cgi-bin/cvekey.cgi?keyword=mplayer
https://cve.mitre.org/cgi-bin/cvekey.cgi?keyword=vlc
https://cve.mitre.org/cgi-bin/cvekey.cgi?keyword=ffplay
https://cve.mitre.org/cgi-bin/cvekey.cgi?keyword=smplayer

3D object viewers (just for shits and giggles):
https://cve.mitre.org/cgi-bin/cvekey.cgi?keyword=blender

IRC clients:
https://cve.mitre.org/cgi-bin/cvekey.cgi?keyword=hexchat
https://cve.mitre.org/cgi-bin/cvekey.cgi?keyword=xchat

Sandboxes:
https://cve.mitre.org/cgi-bin/cvekey.cgi?keyword=bubblewrap
https://cve.mitre.org/cgi-bin/cvekey.cgi?keyword=firejail

These are only the known vulnerabilities that have existed. Who knows what
nastiness lies in those codebases. Programs which aren't too popular don't
seem to show up and I have omitted them.

God fucking damn it.
--
Posted on RetroBBS

Re: Handling Media

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Newsgroups: rocksolid.programming
Subject: Re: Handling Media
Date: Sat, 02 Nov 2019 14:51:37 -0400
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 by: trw - Sat, 2 Nov 2019 18:51 UTC

>These are only the known vulnerabilities that have existed.

If opsec is the absolute paramount parameter than restricting the content to ASCII text will go a long way imho. Dealing with all kinds of different file and stream formats is complex, and with complexity come bugs, some of which will be exploitable. Just a fact in programming.

trw
Posted on def3

Re: Handling Media

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From: anonu...@retrobbs.rocksolidbbs.com.remove-xyp-this (AnonUser)
Newsgroups: rocksolid.programming
Subject: Re: Handling Media
Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2019 09:38:21 +0000
Organization: RetroBBS
Message-ID: <82ba6ca2e21d1e44195de36d763c7ce3$1@retrobbs.i2p>
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 by: AnonUser - Tue, 5 Nov 2019 09:38 UTC

To: trw
>If opsec is the absolute paramount parameter than restricting the content to
ASCII text will go a long way imho.
I agree, it is the safest to just restrict the content to ASCII text, but
I'm not really happy with that alone. I think a plaintext browser is far
too restrictive and imo kind of pointless without other media. At minimum
I would expect images to be available.

Maybe the degree of security should be controlled by the user, perhaps
with different security levels:

0. low security - "embedded" media downloaded and displayed in
sandboxed "embedded" external program.
1. standard security - select formats that aren't considered "risky"
(images of certain formats, maybe?) are downloaded and displayed in
eandboxed "embedded" external programs.
2. high security - ASCII text only, with media only being downloaded
to disk and never opened.

There is also something interesting that I've been reading about recently:
formal verification of software. In other words the software is produced
using logical proofs using a proof assistant, such as Coq. Something
similar is possible with Haskell, but because Haskell isn't a proof
assistant (no dependent types, no totality checker) it can only be used to
semi-formally verify the program being written.

Just a random thought, but maybe having a formally verified implementation
of the decompression algorithm of a popular image format and an associated
program would be interesting down the line.

formally verified C compiler: http://compcert.inria.fr/
Haskell "semi-formal" development:
https://iohk.io/en/blog/posts/2018/06/04/semi-formal-development-the-cardano-wallet/
--
Posted on RetroBBS

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