On Thu, 4 Aug 2022 22:11:17 -0400
"25B.Z969" <25B.Z969@noda.net> wrote:

> The SCARIEST proposition that keeps popping up is a
> "space elevator" - a 150-mile-tall hypermaterial
> cable with something massive on the top end. What

That's not a space elevator - a space elevator is a cable structure
with it's centre of mass at geosynchronous orbit 23000 miles up. So not 150
miles but more like 30-40,0000 depending on the counterweight.

> future bin-Laden could RESIST ??? And we're ALMOST
> there in terms of the cable ....

We're nowhere near in terms of cable last I checked.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/

John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> writes:
>According to 25B.Z969 <25B.Z969@noda.net>:
>>> There are too many things you need digital for, from anti-lock brakes to
>>> engine control.
>>
>> I drove cars for decades that didn't have those "luxury
>> features" ...... they got you from A to B just fine,
>> they WORKED, they could be MADE, SOLD and BOUGHT.
>
>So did I. They got 19 MPG and fell apart after 75,000 miles. No thanks.

You were lucky to get 19MPG, 8 to 10mpg was common until
the late 70s.

And you needed new tires every 10k miles (pre radial) and they
burned oil like locomotives. Frequent tuneups, poor cabin
acoustics, rough rides, thrown rods.

I'll take a modern car anyday.

On 2022-08-05, Scott Lurndal <scott@slp53.sl.home> wrote:
> John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> writes:
>>According to 25B.Z969 <25B.Z969@noda.net>:
>>>> There are too many things you need digital for, from anti-lock brakes to
>>>> engine control.
>>>
>>> I drove cars for decades that didn't have those "luxury
>>> features" ...... they got you from A to B just fine,
>>> they WORKED, they could be MADE, SOLD and BOUGHT.
>>
>>So did I. They got 19 MPG and fell apart after 75,000 miles. No thanks.
>
> You were lucky to get 19MPG, 8 to 10mpg was common until
> the late 70s.
>
> And you needed new tires every 10k miles (pre radial) and they
> burned oil like locomotives. Frequent tuneups, poor cabin
> acoustics, rough rides, thrown rods.
>
> I'll take a modern car anyday.

I remember Yanks would import big `yankee cars' back to ireland to show
off to the old neighbours how well they were doing. There was a story
about someone that did that, and brought it to the local filling
station, where then a man would actually use a pump to pump the fuel
into the car tank, so as the driver left the engine running for some
reason, the man pumping the fuel in had to tap on the window, to turn
the engine off, ``I'm falling behind.''

Gassguzzlers, I don't miss them.

--
greymausg@mail.org
Fi Fi Fo Fum, I smell the stench of an influencer
ten, twenty million tops

On 2022-08-05, Scott Lurndal <scott@slp53.sl.home> wrote:

> John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> writes:
>
>> According to 25B.Z969 <25B.Z969@noda.net>:
>>
>>>> There are too many things you need digital for, from anti-lock brakes to
>>>> engine control.
>>>
>>> I drove cars for decades that didn't have those "luxury
>>> features" ...... they got you from A to B just fine,
>>> they WORKED, they could be MADE, SOLD and BOUGHT.
>>
>> So did I. They got 19 MPG and fell apart after 75,000 miles. No thanks.
>
> You were lucky to get 19MPG, 8 to 10mpg was common until
> the late 70s.
>
> And you needed new tires every 10k miles (pre radial) and they
> burned oil like locomotives. Frequent tuneups, poor cabin
> acoustics, rough rides, thrown rods.

You might be exaggerating a bit. My 1970 Suburban got 15 MPG
with its 350-cubic-inch engine and 4-barrel carburetor. Mind
you, those were Imperial gallons. And I figured you could get
30k miles from a set of tires - but I much prefer radials.
(At one point I found myself with a mix of radial and bias-ply
tires. It did _not_ handle well.)

> I'll take a modern car anyday.

So will I - they sure start more easily on a cold day.
Or any day, for that matter. I might change my mind
with the current genration, though - at least until
someone hacks the onboard computers and disconnects
the surveillance equipment.

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | Microsoft is a dictatorship.
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | Apple is a cult.
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | Linux is anarchy.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | Pick your poison.

On 2022-08-05, 25B.Z969 <25B.Z969@noda.net> wrote:

> On 8/4/22 1:05 PM, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>
>> It's probably possible to do a really nice engine controller
>> with an analogue computer - but it would be a pain to reprogram.
>
> But you don't have to. Digital ignition controllers are,
> or can be, burned into PROMs, mask-programmed chips - get
> it right the first time and you'll never need to change it.

That's anathema to today's SaaS paradigm.

Consider the latest announcement from BMW, where you have to
subscribe to a service to get them to activate heated seats.
The last thing modern manufacturers want is something you can
buy and use without further intervention from them.

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | Microsoft is a dictatorship.
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | Apple is a cult.
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | Linux is anarchy.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | Pick your poison.

Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> writes:

> On 2022-08-05, Scott Lurndal <scott@slp53.sl.home> wrote:
>
>> John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> writes:
>>
>>> According to 25B.Z969 <25B.Z969@noda.net>:
>>>
>>>>> There are too many things you need digital for, from anti-lock brakes to
>>>>> engine control.
>>>>
>>>> I drove cars for decades that didn't have those "luxury
>>>> features" ...... they got you from A to B just fine,
>>>> they WORKED, they could be MADE, SOLD and BOUGHT.
>>>
>>> So did I. They got 19 MPG and fell apart after 75,000 miles. No thanks.
>>
>> You were lucky to get 19MPG, 8 to 10mpg was common until
>> the late 70s.
>>
>> And you needed new tires every 10k miles (pre radial) and they
>> burned oil like locomotives. Frequent tuneups, poor cabin
>> acoustics, rough rides, thrown rods.
>
> You might be exaggerating a bit. My 1970 Suburban got 15 MPG
> with its 350-cubic-inch engine and 4-barrel carburetor. Mind
> you, those were Imperial gallons. And I figured you could get
> 30k miles from a set of tires - but I much prefer radials.
> (At one point I found myself with a mix of radial and bias-ply
> tires. It did _not_ handle well.)
>
>> I'll take a modern car anyday.
>
> So will I - they sure start more easily on a cold day.
> Or any day, for that matter. I might change my mind
> with the current genration, though - at least until
> someone hacks the onboard computers and disconnects
> the surveillance equipment.

I don't have anything that modern but stopping the surveillance should
be as simple as failing to pay the monthly fee. (Leave your cell phone
at home if you really care.)

My car is not new enough for the backup camera but that seems like a
worthwhile feature. The anti-lock brakes are really good and I really
like not needing a tune up every 10K miles.

--
Dan Espen

On 2022-08-05, Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
> On 2022-08-05, Scott Lurndal <scott@slp53.sl.home> wrote:
>
>> John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> writes:
>>
>>> According to 25B.Z969 <25B.Z969@noda.net>:
>>>
>>>>> There are too many things you need digital for, from anti-lock brakes to
>>>>> engine control.
>>>>
>>>> I drove cars for decades that didn't have those "luxury
>>>> features" ...... they got you from A to B just fine,
>>>> they WORKED, they could be MADE, SOLD and BOUGHT.
>>>
>>> So did I. They got 19 MPG and fell apart after 75,000 miles. No thanks.
>>
>> You were lucky to get 19MPG, 8 to 10mpg was common until
>> the late 70s.
>>
>> And you needed new tires every 10k miles (pre radial) and they
>> burned oil like locomotives. Frequent tuneups, poor cabin
>> acoustics, rough rides, thrown rods.
>
> You might be exaggerating a bit. My 1970 Suburban got 15 MPG
> with its 350-cubic-inch engine and 4-barrel carburetor. Mind
> you, those were Imperial gallons. And I figured you could get
> 30k miles from a set of tires - but I much prefer radials.
> (At one point I found myself with a mix of radial and bias-ply
> tires. It did _not_ handle well.)
>
>> I'll take a modern car anyday.
>
> So will I - they sure start more easily on a cold day.
> Or any day, for that matter. I might change my mind
> with the current genration, though - at least until
> someone hacks the onboard computers and disconnects
> the surveillance equipment.
>

There is a story floating around rightpondia that cars will be
brogrammed to stop when a signal is sent. I could not conceive that
anyone could be that stupid to provide such an aid for kidnappers.

--
greymausg@mail.org
Fi Fi Fo Fum, I smell the stench of an influencer
ten, twenty million tops

On 2022-08-05, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
> Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> writes:
>
>> On 2022-08-05, Scott Lurndal <scott@slp53.sl.home> wrote:
>>
>>> John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> writes:
>>>
>>>> According to 25B.Z969 <25B.Z969@noda.net>:
>>>>
>>>>>> There are too many things you need digital for, from anti-lock brakes to
>>>>>> engine control.
>>>>>
>>>>> I drove cars for decades that didn't have those "luxury
>>>>> features" ...... they got you from A to B just fine,
>>>>> they WORKED, they could be MADE, SOLD and BOUGHT.
>>>>
>>>> So did I. They got 19 MPG and fell apart after 75,000 miles. No thanks.
>>>
>>> You were lucky to get 19MPG, 8 to 10mpg was common until
>>> the late 70s.
>>>
>>> And you needed new tires every 10k miles (pre radial) and they
>>> burned oil like locomotives. Frequent tuneups, poor cabin
>>> acoustics, rough rides, thrown rods.
>>
>> You might be exaggerating a bit. My 1970 Suburban got 15 MPG
>> with its 350-cubic-inch engine and 4-barrel carburetor. Mind
>> you, those were Imperial gallons. And I figured you could get
>> 30k miles from a set of tires - but I much prefer radials.
>> (At one point I found myself with a mix of radial and bias-ply
>> tires. It did _not_ handle well.)
>>
>>> I'll take a modern car anyday.
>>
>> So will I - they sure start more easily on a cold day.
>> Or any day, for that matter. I might change my mind
>> with the current genration, though - at least until
>> someone hacks the onboard computers and disconnects
>> the surveillance equipment.
>
> I don't have anything that modern but stopping the surveillance should
> be as simple as failing to pay the monthly fee. (Leave your cell phone
> at home if you really care.)

My daughter cannot get into her flat unless she has her mobile with her.
>
> My car is not new enough for the backup camera but that seems like a
> worthwhile feature. The anti-lock brakes are really good and I really
> like not needing a tune up every 10K miles.
>

--
greymausg@mail.org
Fi Fi Fo Fum, I smell the stench of an influencer
ten, twenty million tops

On 5 Aug 2022 19:12:25 GMT
maus <maus@dmaus.org> wrote:

> There is a story floating around rightpondia that cars will be
> brogrammed to stop when a signal is sent. I could not conceive that
> anyone could be that stupid to provide such an aid for kidnappers.

This comes up from time to time. Some law and order group proposes
that police should have the ability to stop any car, the manufacturers
push back on the grounds that they can't make it hacker proof *and* put it
in every patrol car so do they want script kiddies randomly stopping cars
on the freeway. That ends it until the next round.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/

On 05/08/2022 04:35, 25B.Z969 wrote:
>   But you don't have to. Digital ignition controllers are,
>   or can be, burned into PROMs, mask-programmed chips - get
>   it right the first time and you'll never need to change it.
>
>   And you don't NEED an "engine controller". '57 Chevy's didn't
>   have any - and were robust driving machines. Model-T's don't
>   have them, and STILL run. The engines weren't super-refined
>   of course - but modern sim tech and materials can easily
>   make a very efficient motor.
>
>   And not one chip, or even transistor or tube, required.

Let's see.

Google tells me a '57 chevy does about 13MPG for 140HP.

The current Honda Civic does nearly 60MPG for 180BHP, and I'm sure other
modern cars are similar.

I don't think "efficient" is the right term.

Andy

On 2022-08-05, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:

> Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> writes:
>
>> On 2022-08-05, Scott Lurndal <scott@slp53.sl.home> wrote:
>>
>>> I'll take a modern car anyday.
>>
>> So will I - they sure start more easily on a cold day.
>> Or any day, for that matter. I might change my mind
>> with the current genration, though - at least until
>> someone hacks the onboard computers and disconnects
>> the surveillance equipment.
>
> I don't have anything that modern but stopping the surveillance should
> be as simple as failing to pay the monthly fee. (Leave your cell phone
> at home if you really care.)

Of course, if you stop paying the monthly fee, the car might refuse
to start. Maybe not this generation, but probably the next one.

I'm not too worried about cell phones; I'll give up my flip phone
when they pry it from my cold dead fingers.

About 10 years ago I read a science fiction story about someone driving
along when an ad came up on his radio^Winfotainment centre. The car
then pulled over to the side of the road, locked the doors, and refused
to let him out until he bought whatever they were selling. Fortunately
a friend came along and got him out - but it's coming soon, I'm sure.

Recommended reading: _Unauthorized Bread_ by Cory Doctorow.

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | Microsoft is a dictatorship.
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | Apple is a cult.
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | Linux is anarchy.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | Pick your poison.

On Fri, 05 Aug 2022 21:40:43 GMT, Charlie Gibbs
<cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:

>On 2022-08-05, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> writes:
>>
>>> On 2022-08-05, Scott Lurndal <scott@slp53.sl.home> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I'll take a modern car anyday.
>>>
>>> So will I - they sure start more easily on a cold day.
>>> Or any day, for that matter. I might change my mind
>>> with the current genration, though - at least until
>>> someone hacks the onboard computers and disconnects
>>> the surveillance equipment.
>>
>> I don't have anything that modern but stopping the surveillance should
>> be as simple as failing to pay the monthly fee. (Leave your cell phone
>> at home if you really care.)
>
>Of course, if you stop paying the monthly fee, the car might refuse
>to start. Maybe not this generation, but probably the next one.
>
>I'm not too worried about cell phones; I'll give up my flip phone
>when they pry it from my cold dead fingers.
>
>About 10 years ago I read a science fiction story about someone driving
>along when an ad came up on his radio^Winfotainment centre. The car
>then pulled over to the side of the road, locked the doors, and refused
>to let him out until he bought whatever they were selling. Fortunately
>a friend came along and got him out - but it's coming soon, I'm sure.
>
>Recommended reading: _Unauthorized Bread_ by Cory Doctorow.

I got a demented Nissan NV200 van.

Early on in my driving it went crazy - six lights starting flashing on
the display screen - including "dangerous engine fault, pull over
immediately and get it towed."
So, I pulled over , switched it off and on again.
Maybe one light less - but the engine started, so I tried to drive.
But it seemed limited in revs, speed to about 50 kph - it has a manual
gearbox.
So I guessed it was a computer fault - not mechanical.
I put on the hazard lights and crawled home.
Checking on the net I found that there is a push button at knee height
that switches in/out ABS traction control.
And if you dare to go manual - the van goes apeshit.

The Nissan equivalent of CTR+ALT+DELETE is this -
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Open the driver's side door and get into the drivers seat.

Insert the key into the ignition and turn it a quarter turn so the
ignition turns on, but the engine doesn't start.

Step on the accelerator and quickly release it.
Do this 5 times in less than 5 seconds.
When you step on the pedal, press it down as far as it can go.

Wait 10 seconds.

Press the accelerator completely down with your foot and hold it there
for 10 seconds, or until the SES light blinks on and off.
--------------------------------------------------------------------

This is what you get with kids trained on Windoze.

On Fri, 05 Aug 2022 23:35:43 +0100, Ibmekon <Ibmekon@google.com>
wrote:
>On Fri, 05 Aug 2022 21:40:43 GMT, Charlie Gibbs
><cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>
>>On 2022-08-05, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> writes:
>>>
>>>> On 2022-08-05, Scott Lurndal <scott@slp53.sl.home> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I'll take a modern car anyday.
>>>>
>>>> So will I - they sure start more easily on a cold day.
>>>> Or any day, for that matter. I might change my mind
>>>> with the current genration, though - at least until
>>>> someone hacks the onboard computers and disconnects
>>>> the surveillance equipment.
>>>
>>> I don't have anything that modern but stopping the surveillance should
>>> be as simple as failing to pay the monthly fee. (Leave your cell phone
>>> at home if you really care.)
>>
>>Of course, if you stop paying the monthly fee, the car might refuse
>>to start. Maybe not this generation, but probably the next one.
>>
>>I'm not too worried about cell phones; I'll give up my flip phone
>>when they pry it from my cold dead fingers.
>>
>>About 10 years ago I read a science fiction story about someone driving
>>along when an ad came up on his radio^Winfotainment centre. The car
>>then pulled over to the side of the road, locked the doors, and refused
>>to let him out until he bought whatever they were selling. Fortunately
>>a friend came along and got him out - but it's coming soon, I'm sure.
>>
>>Recommended reading: _Unauthorized Bread_ by Cory Doctorow.
>
>I got a demented Nissan NV200 van.
>
>Early on in my driving it went crazy - six lights starting flashing on
>the display screen - including "dangerous engine fault, pull over
>immediately and get it towed."
>So, I pulled over , switched it off and on again.
>Maybe one light less - but the engine started, so I tried to drive.
>But it seemed limited in revs, speed to about 50 kph - it has a manual
>gearbox.
>So I guessed it was a computer fault - not mechanical.
>I put on the hazard lights and crawled home.
>Checking on the net I found that there is a push button at knee height
>that switches in/out ABS traction control.
>And if you dare to go manual - the van goes apeshit.
>
>The Nissan equivalent of CTR+ALT+DELETE is this -
>--------------------------------------------------------------------
>Open the driver's side door and get into the drivers seat.
>
>Insert the key into the ignition and turn it a quarter turn so the
>ignition turns on, but the engine doesn't start.
>
>Step on the accelerator and quickly release it.
>Do this 5 times in less than 5 seconds.
>When you step on the pedal, press it down as far as it can go.
>
>Wait 10 seconds.
>
>Press the accelerator completely down with your foot and hold it there
>for 10 seconds, or until the SES light blinks on and off.
>--------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>This is what you get with kids trained on Windoze.

Yeah, that sounds dumb for the car makers to do that.
--
Jim

On Fri, 05 Aug 2022 17:51:28 -0500, D.J. <chucktheouch@gmnol.com>
wrote:

>On Fri, 05 Aug 2022 23:35:43 +0100, Ibmekon <Ibmekon@google.com>
>wrote:
>>On Fri, 05 Aug 2022 21:40:43 GMT, Charlie Gibbs
>><cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>>On 2022-08-05, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> writes:
>>>>
>>>>> On 2022-08-05, Scott Lurndal <scott@slp53.sl.home> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I'll take a modern car anyday.
>>>>>
>>>>> So will I - they sure start more easily on a cold day.
>>>>> Or any day, for that matter. I might change my mind
>>>>> with the current genration, though - at least until
>>>>> someone hacks the onboard computers and disconnects
>>>>> the surveillance equipment.
>>>>
>>>> I don't have anything that modern but stopping the surveillance should
>>>> be as simple as failing to pay the monthly fee. (Leave your cell phone
>>>> at home if you really care.)
>>>
>>>Of course, if you stop paying the monthly fee, the car might refuse
>>>to start. Maybe not this generation, but probably the next one.
>>>
>>>I'm not too worried about cell phones; I'll give up my flip phone
>>>when they pry it from my cold dead fingers.
>>>
>>>About 10 years ago I read a science fiction story about someone driving
>>>along when an ad came up on his radio^Winfotainment centre. The car
>>>then pulled over to the side of the road, locked the doors, and refused
>>>to let him out until he bought whatever they were selling. Fortunately
>>>a friend came along and got him out - but it's coming soon, I'm sure.
>>>
>>>Recommended reading: _Unauthorized Bread_ by Cory Doctorow.
>>
>>I got a demented Nissan NV200 van.
>>
>>Early on in my driving it went crazy - six lights starting flashing on
>>the display screen - including "dangerous engine fault, pull over
>>immediately and get it towed."
>>So, I pulled over , switched it off and on again.
>>Maybe one light less - but the engine started, so I tried to drive.
>>But it seemed limited in revs, speed to about 50 kph - it has a manual
>>gearbox.
>>So I guessed it was a computer fault - not mechanical.
>>I put on the hazard lights and crawled home.
>>Checking on the net I found that there is a push button at knee height
>>that switches in/out ABS traction control.
>>And if you dare to go manual - the van goes apeshit.
>>
>>The Nissan equivalent of CTR+ALT+DELETE is this -
>>--------------------------------------------------------------------
>>Open the driver's side door and get into the drivers seat.
>>
>>Insert the key into the ignition and turn it a quarter turn so the
>>ignition turns on, but the engine doesn't start.
>>
>>Step on the accelerator and quickly release it.
>>Do this 5 times in less than 5 seconds.
>>When you step on the pedal, press it down as far as it can go.
>>
>>Wait 10 seconds.
>>
>>Press the accelerator completely down with your foot and hold it there
>>for 10 seconds, or until the SES light blinks on and off.
>>--------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>This is what you get with kids trained on Windoze.
>
>Yeah, that sounds dumb for the car makers to do that.
>--
>Jim

Not quite the words I used.
"dumb" I do not mind.
But this was "accidentally on purpose" management sabotage to force my
compliance illegally.

On 05/08/2022 04:29, 25B.Z969 wrote:
> On 8/4/22 11:23 AM, Peter Flass wrote:
>> 25B.Z969 <25B.Z969@noda.net> wrote:
>>> On 8/3/22 9:41 AM, Lew Pitcher wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 03 Aug 2022 01:07:52 -0400, 25B.Z969 wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 8/2/22 3:09 PM, Rich Alderson wrote:
>>>>>> scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) writes:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "25B.Z959" <25B.Z959@nada.net> writes:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Do you have something against those hardware geeks
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I don't know what you're talking about.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It's OK, Scott, neither does he.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Oh, one of THOSE too I see ....   :-)
>>>>>
>>>>> No hardware, no programs. It's all one thing
>>>>> bottom to top to bottom. Babbage would have
>>>>> got it ...
>>>>
>>>> Lack of hardware did not stop Lady Ada Lovelace
>>>> from writing programs for Charles Babbage's
>>>> (never-built) "Analytical Engine"
>>>
>>>    Programs that DID nothing ...... just abstractions,
>>>    short 'stories' to amuse a non-existent audience.
>>>
>>>    These days the MONEY is in them DOING STUFF.
>>>
>>>    I won't knock Babbage - he DID have it right, just
>>>    lacked decent hardware. Lovelace saw it's possibilities
>>>    even more than Babbage. Alas it was all for naught,
>>>    an 'intellectual excercise' ........
>>>
>>>    Jobs or Woz ? I'll pick Woz - HE made it WORK.
>>>
>>>    Yer tofu-burger relies on a VAST chain - from
>>>    miners and geologists and farm-gurus to metallurgists
>>>    and engineers who made possible the engines for the
>>>    harvesters/processors/transport all the way on up
>>>    to the COBOL handling the cash transactions. It's
>>>    an INTEGRATED SYSTEM from one end to the other, all
>>>    the SAME THING, different parts of the SAME ANIMAL.
>>>    Can't remove any of the steps or it all falls apart.
>>>
>>>    Maybe that Big Picture isn't so "important" ... well ...
>>>    until one of those links in the chain fails .......
>>>
>>>    I hear GM now has over 100,000 vehicles just SITTING in
>>>    storage because one link in their chain failed - can't
>>>    get a few kinds of MPUs and sensor devices. I urged them
>>>    to go back to analog ..... everybody seems *shocked* at
>>>    the suggestion ... why, autos were IMPOSSIBLE before
>>>    digital ya know  :-)
>>>
>>>    Oh well, THINK about it. One day ......
>>>
>>
>> There are too many things you need digital for, from anti-lock brakes to
>> engine control.
>
>
>   I drove cars for decades that didn't have those "luxury
>   features" ...... they got you from A to B just fine,
>   they WORKED, they could be MADE, SOLD and BOUGHT.
>
>
>> Apparently it’s impossible to meet current emission-control
>> standards without computers.
>
>   So change those standards. Just takes a few pen-strokes
>   from the right people - THAT simple. Actually with computer
>   sims, much more efficient carburetors or mechanical injectors
>   systems could be designed quickly - "less perfect" than digital,
>   but not bad at all and NOT dependent on tech imported from
>   enemy/vulnerable nations. The proverbial '57 Chevy was the
>   right idea - but, given the times, not refined quite enough.
>
>> As one who has spent time doing a tune-up on
>> an “analog” engine, I think the current situation is much better. No
>> more fooling around with setting points, etc.
>
>   You really don't even need "points" - Google "magneto
>   ignition". All small aircraft have TWO of them ...
>   each wired to a different set of spark plugs. You are
>   supposed to test each of them before take-off.
>
A magneto uses 'points', as well as an internal coil

All it is is a standard coil system with an inbuilt generator to replace
the battery

> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SBEsrpSVFVY
>
> https://mechanicaljungle.com/magneto-ignition/
>
>   Modern magnetics can deliver a sharper, more robust spark
>   than the old AlNiCo or iron magnets.
>
>   Points/Distributors were invented because it was a little
>   bit easier to vary the spark according to RPM and load
>   conditions ... and you only needed 12volts and not an
>   entire magneto - about the size of a small alternator.
>   Yer lawnmower probably uses magneto ignition - it's
>   just a magnet fitted into the flywheel that whizzes
>   past a little coil. All very low-tech. No Chinese
>   chips required.
>
My lawnmower uses an electronic ignition.

Its simply more relatable

>   So it CAN be done, and WAS done for 100 years.

--
“Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit
atrocities.”

― Voltaire, Questions sur les Miracles à M. Claparede, Professeur de
Théologie à Genève, par un Proposant: Ou Extrait de Diverses Lettres de
M. de Voltaire

On 05/08/2022 04:33, John Levine wrote:
> According to 25B.Z969 <25B.Z969@noda.net>:
>>> There are too many things you need digital for, from anti-lock brakes to
>>> engine control.
>>
>> I drove cars for decades that didn't have those "luxury
>> features" ...... they got you from A to B just fine,
>> they WORKED, they could be MADE, SOLD and BOUGHT.
>
> So did I. They got 19 MPG and fell apart after 75,000 miles. No thanks.
>
I remember the manuals. new big ends at 30,000, new mains AND big ends
at 60,000 and new pistons and a rebore at 120,000 plus a reground crank

New carb at 75,000.

In general electronic ignition/injection doesn't wear out, it just
works, or it fails. And it has pretty comprehensive diagnostics .

--
“Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit
atrocities.”

― Voltaire, Questions sur les Miracles à M. Claparede, Professeur de
Théologie à Genève, par un Proposant: Ou Extrait de Diverses Lettres de
M. de Voltaire

On 05/08/2022 21:50, Vir Campestris wrote:
> On 05/08/2022 04:35, 25B.Z969 wrote:
>>    But you don't have to. Digital ignition controllers are,
>>    or can be, burned into PROMs, mask-programmed chips - get
>>    it right the first time and you'll never need to change it.
>>
>>    And you don't NEED an "engine controller". '57 Chevy's didn't
>>    have any - and were robust driving machines. Model-T's don't
>>    have them, and STILL run. The engines weren't super-refined
>>    of course - but modern sim tech and materials can easily
>>    make a very efficient motor.
>>
>>    And not one chip, or even transistor or tube, required.
>
> Let's see.
>
> Google tells me a '57 chevy does about 13MPG for 140HP.
>
> The current Honda Civic does nearly 60MPG for 180BHP, and I'm sure other
> modern cars are similar.
>
> I don't think "efficient" is the right term.
>
> Andy

I get 33mpg for 285 bhp
Nice compromise

--
“Progress is precisely that which rules and regulations did not foresee,”

– Ludwig von Mises

On 8/4/22 11:33 PM, John Levine wrote:
> According to 25B.Z969 <25B.Z969@noda.net>:
>>> There are too many things you need digital for, from anti-lock brakes to
>>> engine control.
>>
>> I drove cars for decades that didn't have those "luxury
>> features" ...... they got you from A to B just fine,
>> they WORKED, they could be MADE, SOLD and BOUGHT.
>
> So did I. They got 19 MPG and fell apart after 75,000 miles. No thanks.

Metallurgy & machining tech, and they weren't trying very
hard anyway. The electronics had nothing to do with it.
An all-digital '57 Chevy would still get 19mpg and have
to be rebuilt after 70,000 miles.

On 8/5/22 10:05 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> writes:
>> According to 25B.Z969 <25B.Z969@noda.net>:
>>>> There are too many things you need digital for, from anti-lock brakes to
>>>> engine control.
>>>
>>> I drove cars for decades that didn't have those "luxury
>>> features" ...... they got you from A to B just fine,
>>> they WORKED, they could be MADE, SOLD and BOUGHT.
>>
>> So did I. They got 19 MPG and fell apart after 75,000 miles. No thanks.
>
> You were lucky to get 19MPG, 8 to 10mpg was common until
> the late 70s.
>
> And you needed new tires every 10k miles (pre radial) and they
> burned oil like locomotives. Frequent tuneups, poor cabin
> acoustics, rough rides, thrown rods.
>
> I'll take a modern car anyday.

But again, NONE of those issues had ANYTHING to do
with whether they were 'digital' or not. It was just
loosey-goosey manufacturing and Babbit bearings.

maus <maus@dmaus.org> writes:

> On 2022-08-05, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> writes:
>>
>>> On 2022-08-05, Scott Lurndal <scott@slp53.sl.home> wrote:
>>>
>>>> John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> writes:
>>>>
>>>>> According to 25B.Z969 <25B.Z969@noda.net>:
>>>>>
>>>>>>> There are too many things you need digital for, from anti-lock brakes to
>>>>>>> engine control.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I drove cars for decades that didn't have those "luxury
>>>>>> features" ...... they got you from A to B just fine,
>>>>>> they WORKED, they could be MADE, SOLD and BOUGHT.
>>>>>
>>>>> So did I. They got 19 MPG and fell apart after 75,000 miles. No thanks.
>>>>
>>>> You were lucky to get 19MPG, 8 to 10mpg was common until
>>>> the late 70s.
>>>>
>>>> And you needed new tires every 10k miles (pre radial) and they
>>>> burned oil like locomotives. Frequent tuneups, poor cabin
>>>> acoustics, rough rides, thrown rods.
>>>
>>> You might be exaggerating a bit. My 1970 Suburban got 15 MPG
>>> with its 350-cubic-inch engine and 4-barrel carburetor. Mind
>>> you, those were Imperial gallons. And I figured you could get
>>> 30k miles from a set of tires - but I much prefer radials.
>>> (At one point I found myself with a mix of radial and bias-ply
>>> tires. It did _not_ handle well.)
>>>
>>>> I'll take a modern car anyday.
>>>
>>> So will I - they sure start more easily on a cold day.
>>> Or any day, for that matter. I might change my mind
>>> with the current genration, though - at least until
>>> someone hacks the onboard computers and disconnects
>>> the surveillance equipment.
>>
>> I don't have anything that modern but stopping the surveillance should
>> be as simple as failing to pay the monthly fee. (Leave your cell phone
>> at home if you really care.)
>
> My daughter cannot get into her flat unless she has her mobile with her.

Wow. No key or she lost it?
If one really cared, put the cell in a metal box in the car.

--
Dan Espen

On 7/29/22 6:23 PM, Peter Flass wrote:
> 25B.Z959 <25B.Z959@nada.net> wrote:
>> On 7/28/22 3:13 PM, Peter Flass wrote:
>>> 25B.Z959 <25B.Z959@nada.net> wrote:
>>>> On 7/25/22 7:37 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
>>>>> On 2022-07-24 00:23, Peter Flass wrote:
>>>>>> 25B.Z959 <25B.Z959@nada.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>     Sometimes that IS a factor ... you have to have people who
>>>>>>>     can write it. But 1990 ... IMHO it should have been 'C'.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> IMNSHO, COBOL. C is a terrible language for those types of language.
>>>>> Things
>>>>>>    that are so dimple in COBOL, like moving a character string with blank
>>>>>> fill, or formatting numeric output, requires calling subroutines in
>>>>> C, and
>>>>>> lack of length checking on string moves is a recipe for disaster.
>>>>> This is one of the weirder arguments I've ever seen:
>>>>> "requires calling a subroutine in C". As if that somehow is a problem?
>>>>> Not to mention it's a function, and not a subroutine. Any claim of "used
>>>>> the language quite a bit" sounds hollow after that.
>>>>>
>>>>> A statement to move a character string in COBOL will in the end be a
>>>>> subroutine call as well.
>>>>>
>>>>> And lack of length checking depends on the function. Nothing prevents
>>>>> you from using strncpy in C. Or write your own, with whatever
>>>>> characteristic you want. It will actually be pretty efficient.
>>>>> Comparable to the provided functions.
>>>>>
>>>>>> I have used both languages quite a bit, perhaps COBOL more, years
>>>>> ago, but
>>>>>> neither is my preferred language, so I have no dog in this fight.
>>>>>> …
>>>>> Seems like your C is both rusty and bad.
>>>>>
>>>>>>>     Mostly I like "terse" languages - less typing and lots
>>>>>>>     of room left over for comments at the ends of the lines.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sounds like assembler ;-)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It’s too easy to write tricky code with side-effects in C. COBOL
>>>>> might not
>>>>>> be as self-documenting as advertised, but the operation of each
>>>>> statement
>>>>>> is pretty obvious and easily understood.
>>>>> What kind of side effects are we talking about? The operation of each
>>>>> statement in C is very obvious and easy to understand.
>>>>> Most people get into trouble because of memory handling. Not the
>>>>> language semantics.
>>>>> But that is where you get to the point where things gets even harder to
>>>>> even do in COBOL. And if you manage to do it, it won't be easily
>>>>> understood.
>>>>
>>>> Consider "print x" ... those of us that go back some years
>>>> will acutely recognize how "print x" stands atop a veritable
>>>> Everest of subroutines, device abstractors, drivers for
>>>> display controllers .........
>>>>
>>>> CPUs don't *have* a "print x".
>>>
>>> I think the 1401 did. It had instructions for “read a card”, “print a
>>> line”, etc.
>>
>> As I said to another ... just sending a binary stream out
>> of a pin is NOT "printing". There's a LOT between that
>> and actual human-readable data display.
>>
>
> I think it would have been all hardware on the 1401 - not even firmware,
> which wasn’t invented yet.

Depends on how you define "firmware". That can be
anything from Babbage's gear-packs to UNIVAC plug-wire
patterns to hardwired TTL logic to mask-programmed
chips to ....... :-)

Anyway, my *theme* here ... it's all part of the
SAME THING. "smart" peripherials are really just
co-processors that add to the power of the "main"
CPU, create the "whole experience". "DISPLAY XVAL"
means crap without the downstream intelligence.

On 8/5/22 1:52 AM, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> On Thu, 4 Aug 2022 22:11:17 -0400
> "25B.Z969" <25B.Z969@noda.net> wrote:
>
>> The SCARIEST proposition that keeps popping up is a
>> "space elevator" - a 150-mile-tall hypermaterial
>> cable with something massive on the top end. What
>
> That's not a space elevator - a space elevator is a cable structure
> with it's centre of mass at geosynchronous orbit 23000 miles up. So not 150
> miles but more like 30-40,0000 depending on the counterweight.

You MIGHT be able to put it at a lower altitude ... but
it'd surely require some kind of constant power. The
cable would drag out diagonally, trailing the anchor
point - and there'd be WIND RESISTANCE in the lower
atmosphere section.

A 'cable' to sync-orbit+ is a BIG challenge, from a
technical POV. Might require some kind of "active
material", strengthened by magnetic or electrical
fields. The OTHER challenge is that it'd be the
biggest TARGET in the world .......

>
>> future bin-Laden could RESIST ??? And we're ALMOST
>> there in terms of the cable ....
>
> We're nowhere near in terms of cable last I checked.
>

After some searching I couldn't really find much on
the structural issues with "cone-shaped" buildings.
Very annoying. I visualize something like an incense
cone - with a 100-meter base, 1000 meters tall.
I don't think it'd suffer much from sway or resonance
issues. Glass dome for the penthouse suite. Oh the RENT
you could charge :-)

Might need a few

\/
--
/\

anti-buckling braces up the inner core ....

On 2022-08-05, Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
> On 2022-08-05, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> writes:
>>
>>> On 2022-08-05, Scott Lurndal <scott@slp53.sl.home> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I'll take a modern car anyday.
>>>
>>> So will I - they sure start more easily on a cold day.
>>> Or any day, for that matter. I might change my mind
>>> with the current genration, though - at least until
>>> someone hacks the onboard computers and disconnects
>>> the surveillance equipment.
>>
>> I don't have anything that modern but stopping the surveillance should
>> be as simple as failing to pay the monthly fee. (Leave your cell phone
>> at home if you really care.)

Signal shows up on the cars konsole "Mobile device not found"
Story from a policeman years ago. Roma children sitting on the sidewalk
on Merrion square, with blanket for warmth, and to hide electronic
sniffing device, to detect the signal of remote unlocking devices.

The daughter mentioned above, visits sometimes, to the sound of , "Dad,
can I use your mobile?. I have mislaid mine."
>
> Of course, if you stop paying the monthly fee, the car might refuse
> to start. Maybe not this generation, but probably the next one.
>
> I'm not too worried about cell phones; I'll give up my flip phone
> when they pry it from my cold dead fingers.
>
> About 10 years ago I read a science fiction story about someone driving
> along when an ad came up on his radio^Winfotainment centre. The car
> then pulled over to the side of the road, locked the doors, and refused
> to let him out until he bought whatever they were selling. Fortunately
> a friend came along and got him out - but it's coming soon, I'm sure.
>
> Recommended reading: _Unauthorized Bread_ by Cory Doctorow.
>

``Currently unavailable.''

Cory is an expert in futurism, why not code the book to epub?

--
greymausg@mail.org
Fi Fi Fo Fum, I smell the stench of an influencer
ten, twenty million tops

On 2022-08-05, Ibmekon <Ibmekon@google.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 05 Aug 2022 21:40:43 GMT, Charlie Gibbs
>
> Press the accelerator completely down with your foot and hold it there
> for 10 seconds, or until the SES light blinks on and off.
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> This is what you get with kids trained on Windoze.
>

I had an opel car that did that about 30 years ago, drive along the
road, and it would drop into a mode that the speed would be limited to
under 30 mph or so, like the deisel cars today will if you drive too
slowly and something in the exhaust fills up.

The opel got an upgrade eventually that cured that.

Present Honda seems to light up lights at times in Normal driving.

As part of business, I sometimes drove a Nissan Micra. Nothing went
wring, unless you drove over 60mph, the engine was too small to engine
break well.

--
greymausg@mail.org
Fi Fi Fo Fum, I smell the stench of an influencer
ten, twenty million tops

On Fri, 05 Aug 2022 13:13:34 -0400, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com>
wrote:

>Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> writes:
>
>> On 2022-08-05, Scott Lurndal <scott@slp53.sl.home> wrote:
>>
>>> John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> writes:
>>>
>>>> According to 25B.Z969 <25B.Z969@noda.net>:
>>>>
>>>>>> There are too many things you need digital for, from anti-lock brakes to
>>>>>> engine control.
>>>>>
>>>>> I drove cars for decades that didn't have those "luxury
>>>>> features" ...... they got you from A to B just fine,
>>>>> they WORKED, they could be MADE, SOLD and BOUGHT.
>>>>
>>>> So did I. They got 19 MPG and fell apart after 75,000 miles. No thanks.
>>>
>>> You were lucky to get 19MPG, 8 to 10mpg was common until
>>> the late 70s.
>>>
>>> And you needed new tires every 10k miles (pre radial) and they
>>> burned oil like locomotives. Frequent tuneups, poor cabin
>>> acoustics, rough rides, thrown rods.
>>
>> You might be exaggerating a bit. My 1970 Suburban got 15 MPG
>> with its 350-cubic-inch engine and 4-barrel carburetor. Mind
>> you, those were Imperial gallons. And I figured you could get
>> 30k miles from a set of tires - but I much prefer radials.
>> (At one point I found myself with a mix of radial and bias-ply
>> tires. It did _not_ handle well.)
>>
>>> I'll take a modern car anyday.
>>
>> So will I - they sure start more easily on a cold day.
>> Or any day, for that matter. I might change my mind
>> with the current genration, though - at least until
>> someone hacks the onboard computers and disconnects
>> the surveillance equipment.
>
>I don't have anything that modern but stopping the surveillance should
>be as simple as failing to pay the monthly fee. (Leave your cell phone
>at home if you really care.)
>
>My car is not new enough for the backup camera but that seems like a
>worthwhile feature. The anti-lock brakes are really good and I really
>like not needing a tune up every 10K miles.
All new cars since 2019 sold in the EU have an emergency rescue
transmitter.
I read the technical spec which went out to tender.
It is a computer and phone - and can be updated remotely without the
owner having any control or knowledge.
They are now bringing in legislation to automatically stop you
exceeding speed limits.