On Friday, May 27, 2022 at 1:50:38 PM UTC+8, David P. wrote:
> ‘Such Bad Guys Will Come’: How One Russian Brigade Terrorized Bucha
> By Carlotta Gall, May 22, 2022, NY Times
>
> Based in Russia’s far east, near the border with China, the
> 64th Brigade belongs to the Eastern Military District, long
> seen as the part of the Russian Army with the lowest levels
> of training and equipment. The brigade has ethnic Russian
> commanders but consists largely of soldiers drawn from minority
> ethnic groups and disadvantaged communities, according to
> Col. Mykola Krasny, the head of public affairs of Ukrainian
> military intelligence. In radio conversations that were
> intercepted by Ukrainian forces, some of the Russians expressed
> surprise that village roads in outlying areas of Kyiv were
> paved with asphalt, he said. “We see it as a deliberate policy
> to draft soldiers from depressed regions of Russia,”
> Colonel Krasny said.
>
> Not a lot is known about the brigade, but Colonel Krasny
> claimed that it was notable for its lack of morality, for
> beatings of soldiers and for thieving. Drawn from a regiment
> that had served in Chechnya, the brigade was established on
> Jan. 1, 2009, shortly after Russia’s war in Georgia, Colonel
> Krasny said. The goal was clear, he added: to build up a
> fearsome army unit that could instill control. “The consequences
> of these politics was what happened in Bucha,” he said. “Having
> no discipline, and these aggressive habits, it looks like it
> was created to scare the population.”
>
> He claimed that the Russian soldiers’ disadvantaged backgrounds,
> and the fact that they could act with impunity, prompted them
> “to do unspeakable things.” It was not only the enemy who
> suffered their brutality. The Russian Army has long had a
> reputation for hazing its own soldiers, and on a cellphone
> left behind in Bucha by a member of the 64th, investigators
> found recent evidence of the practice: a video in which an
> officer is talking to a subordinate and then suddenly punches
> him in the side of the head while other soldiers stand around
> talking. The Russian government did not respond to a request
> for comment on the accusations against the 64th Brigade but
> has repeatedly claimed that allegations of its forces having
> committed atrocities in Bucha and elsewhere are false.
>
> Western analysts who have studied the Russian Army said that
> the behavior of troops in Bucha was not a surprise. “It is
> consistent with the way they consider responding,” said Nick
> Reynolds, a researcher of land warfare at the Royal United
> Services Institute, a military research organization in London.
> “Reprisals are part and parcel of how the Russian military does
> business.”
>
> The ‘Bad Guys’ Will Come
> ----------------------
> Killings occurred in Bucha from the first days that Russian
> troops appeared. The first units were airborne assault troops,
> paratroopers and special forces who fired on cars and civilians
> in the streets and detained men suspected of being in the
> Ukrainian Army or territorial defense. The extent of the
> killings, and the seeming lack of hesitation among Russian
> soldiers to carry them out, has led Ukrainian officials to
> surmise that they were acting under orders. “They couldn’t
> not know,” Bucha’s prosecutor, Mr. Kravchenko, said of senior
> military commanders. “I think the terror was planned.”
>
> Many of the documented killings occurred on Yablunska Street,
> where bodies lay for weeks, visible on satellite images. But
> not far away, on a corner of Ivana Franka Street, a particular
> form of hell played out after March 12. Residents had already
> been warned that things would get worse. A pensioner, Mykola,
> 67, said that the Russian troops who first came to the neighbor-
> hood had advised him to leave while he could. “‘After us, such
> bad guys will come,’” the commander told him, he recalled..
> “I think they had radio contact and they knew who was coming,
> and they had their own opinion of them.” Mykola left Bucha
> before the 64th Brigade arrived.
>
> The spring flowers are pushing up everywhere in Bucha, fruit
> trees are in blossom, and city workers have swept the streets
> and filled in some of the bomb craters. But at the end of Ivana
> Franka Street, amid smashed cars and destroyed homes, there is
> an eerie desolation. “From this house to the end, no one is
> left alive,” said Ms. Havryliuk, 65. “Eleven people were killed
> here. Only we stayed alive.” Her son and son-in-law had stayed
> behind to look after the house and the dogs, and were killed on
> March 12 or 13, when the 64th Brigade first arrived, she said.
> The death certificates said that they had been shot in the head.
>
> What happened over the next two weeks is hard to fathom. The
> few residents who stayed were confined to their homes and only
> occasionally dared to go out to fetch water from a well. Some of
> them saw people being detained by the Russians. Nadezhda
> Cherednychenko, 50, pleaded with the soldiers to let her son go.
> He was being held in the yard of a house and his arm had been
> injured when she last saw him. She found him dead in the cellar
> of the same house three weeks later, after the Russians withdrew.
> “They should be punished,” she said of his captors. “They brought
> so much pain to people. Mothers without children, fathers,
> children without parents. It’s something you cannot forgive.”
>
> Neighbors who lived next door to the Havryliuks just disappeared.
> Volodymyr and Tetiana Shypilo, a teacher, and their son Andriy, 39,
> lived in one part of the house, and Oleh Yarmolenko, 47, lived alone
> in the other side. “They were all our relatives,” Ms. Havryliuk said.
> Down a side alley lived Lidiya Sydorenko, 62, and her husband Serhiy,
> 65. Their daughter, Tetiana Naumova, said that she spoke to them by
> telephone midmorning on March 22. “Mother was crying the whole time,”
> Ms. Naumova said. “She was usually an optimist, but I think she had a
> bad feeling.” Minutes later, Russian soldiers came in and demanded
> to search their garage. They told a neighbor to leave, shooting at
> the ground by her feet. “By lunchtime they had killed them,”
> Ms. Naumova said.
>
> She returned to the house with her husband, Vitaliy, and her son
> Anton last month after the Russian troops withdrew from Kyiv. Her
> parents were nowhere to be found, but they found ominous traces —
> her father’s hat with bullet holes in it, three pools of blood and
> a piece of her mother’s scalp and hair. There was also no sign of
> the Shypilos or of Mr. Yarmolenko, except trails of blood where
> bodies had been dragged along the floor of their house. Eventually,
> French forensic investigators solved the mystery. They examined
> six charred bodies found in an empty lot up the street and confirmed
> that they were the missing civilians: the Sydorenkos, the 3 Shypilos
> and Mr. Yarmolenko. Several bore bullet wounds but three of them had
> had limbs severed, including Ms. Naumova’s mother, the investigators
> told the families. Her father had multiple gunshot wounds to the
> head and chest, her mother had had an arm and a leg cut off, she said.
> “They tortured them,” Ms. Havryliuk said, “and burned them to
> cover their tracks.”
>
> https://www.nytimes.com/2022/05/22/world/europe/ukraine-bucha-war-crimes-russia.html

US has had a army group called as "the punisher" to violently kill people when invading or in the occupied country. No difference from this, when war is concerned. To win the war, one has to be ruthless in the kill. This is regardless of whether it is a mistake made in the decision to kill or not.

On Sunday, May 29, 2022 at 9:53:35 AM UTC-7, stoney wrote:
> On Friday, May 27, 2022 at 1:50:38 PM UTC+8, David P. wrote:
> > ‘Such Bad Guys Will Come’: How One Russian Brigade Terrorized Bucha
> > By Carlotta Gall, May 22, 2022, NY Times
> >
> > Based in Russia’s far east, near the border with China, the
> > 64th Brigade belongs to the Eastern Military District, long
> > seen as the part of the Russian Army with the lowest levels
> > of training and equipment. The brigade has ethnic Russian
> > commanders but consists largely of soldiers drawn from minority
> > ethnic groups and disadvantaged communities, according to
> > Col. Mykola Krasny, the head of public affairs of Ukrainian
> > military intelligence. In radio conversations that were
> > intercepted by Ukrainian forces, some of the Russians expressed
> > surprise that village roads in outlying areas of Kyiv were
> > paved with asphalt, he said. “We see it as a deliberate policy
> > to draft soldiers from depressed regions of Russia,”
> > Colonel Krasny said.
> >
> > Not a lot is known about the brigade, but Colonel Krasny
> > claimed that it was notable for its lack of morality, for
> > beatings of soldiers and for thieving. Drawn from a regiment
> > that had served in Chechnya, the brigade was established on
> > Jan. 1, 2009, shortly after Russia’s war in Georgia, Colonel
> > Krasny said. The goal was clear, he added: to build up a
> > fearsome army unit that could instill control. “The consequences
> > of these politics was what happened in Bucha,” he said. “Having
> > no discipline, and these aggressive habits, it looks like it
> > was created to scare the population.”
> >
> > He claimed that the Russian soldiers’ disadvantaged backgrounds,
> > and the fact that they could act with impunity, prompted them
> > “to do unspeakable things.” It was not only the enemy who
> > suffered their brutality. The Russian Army has long had a
> > reputation for hazing its own soldiers, and on a cellphone
> > left behind in Bucha by a member of the 64th, investigators
> > found recent evidence of the practice: a video in which an
> > officer is talking to a subordinate and then suddenly punches
> > him in the side of the head while other soldiers stand around
> > talking. The Russian government did not respond to a request
> > for comment on the accusations against the 64th Brigade but
> > has repeatedly claimed that allegations of its forces having
> > committed atrocities in Bucha and elsewhere are false.
> >
> > Western analysts who have studied the Russian Army said that
> > the behavior of troops in Bucha was not a surprise. “It is
> > consistent with the way they consider responding,” said Nick
> > Reynolds, a researcher of land warfare at the Royal United
> > Services Institute, a military research organization in London.
> > “Reprisals are part and parcel of how the Russian military does
> > business.”
> >
> > The ‘Bad Guys’ Will Come
> > ----------------------
> > Killings occurred in Bucha from the first days that Russian
> > troops appeared. The first units were airborne assault troops,
> > paratroopers and special forces who fired on cars and civilians
> > in the streets and detained men suspected of being in the
> > Ukrainian Army or territorial defense. The extent of the
> > killings, and the seeming lack of hesitation among Russian
> > soldiers to carry them out, has led Ukrainian officials to
> > surmise that they were acting under orders. “They couldn’t
> > not know,” Bucha’s prosecutor, Mr. Kravchenko, said of senior
> > military commanders. “I think the terror was planned.”
> >
> > Many of the documented killings occurred on Yablunska Street,
> > where bodies lay for weeks, visible on satellite images. But
> > not far away, on a corner of Ivana Franka Street, a particular
> > form of hell played out after March 12. Residents had already
> > been warned that things would get worse. A pensioner, Mykola,
> > 67, said that the Russian troops who first came to the neighbor-
> > hood had advised him to leave while he could. “‘After us, such
> > bad guys will come,’” the commander told him, he recalled.
> > “I think they had radio contact and they knew who was coming,
> > and they had their own opinion of them.” Mykola left Bucha
> > before the 64th Brigade arrived.
> >
> > The spring flowers are pushing up everywhere in Bucha, fruit
> > trees are in blossom, and city workers have swept the streets
> > and filled in some of the bomb craters. But at the end of Ivana
> > Franka Street, amid smashed cars and destroyed homes, there is
> > an eerie desolation. “From this house to the end, no one is
> > left alive,” said Ms. Havryliuk, 65. “Eleven people were killed
> > here. Only we stayed alive.” Her son and son-in-law had stayed
> > behind to look after the house and the dogs, and were killed on
> > March 12 or 13, when the 64th Brigade first arrived, she said.
> > The death certificates said that they had been shot in the head.
> >
> > What happened over the next two weeks is hard to fathom. The
> > few residents who stayed were confined to their homes and only
> > occasionally dared to go out to fetch water from a well. Some of
> > them saw people being detained by the Russians. Nadezhda
> > Cherednychenko, 50, pleaded with the soldiers to let her son go.
> > He was being held in the yard of a house and his arm had been
> > injured when she last saw him. She found him dead in the cellar
> > of the same house three weeks later, after the Russians withdrew.
> > “They should be punished,” she said of his captors. “They brought
> > so much pain to people. Mothers without children, fathers,
> > children without parents. It’s something you cannot forgive.”
> >
> > Neighbors who lived next door to the Havryliuks just disappeared.
> > Volodymyr and Tetiana Shypilo, a teacher, and their son Andriy, 39,
> > lived in one part of the house, and Oleh Yarmolenko, 47, lived alone
> > in the other side. “They were all our relatives,” Ms. Havryliuk said.
> > Down a side alley lived Lidiya Sydorenko, 62, and her husband Serhiy,
> > 65. Their daughter, Tetiana Naumova, said that she spoke to them by
> > telephone midmorning on March 22. “Mother was crying the whole time,”
> > Ms. Naumova said. “She was usually an optimist, but I think she had a
> > bad feeling.” Minutes later, Russian soldiers came in and demanded
> > to search their garage. They told a neighbor to leave, shooting at
> > the ground by her feet. “By lunchtime they had killed them,”
> > Ms. Naumova said.
> >
> > She returned to the house with her husband, Vitaliy, and her son
> > Anton last month after the Russian troops withdrew from Kyiv. Her
> > parents were nowhere to be found, but they found ominous traces —
> > her father’s hat with bullet holes in it, three pools of blood and
> > a piece of her mother’s scalp and hair. There was also no sign of
> > the Shypilos or of Mr. Yarmolenko, except trails of blood where
> > bodies had been dragged along the floor of their house. Eventually,
> > French forensic investigators solved the mystery. They examined
> > six charred bodies found in an empty lot up the street and confirmed
> > that they were the missing civilians: the Sydorenkos, the 3 Shypilos
> > and Mr. Yarmolenko. Several bore bullet wounds but three of them had
> > had limbs severed, including Ms. Naumova’s mother, the investigators
> > told the families. Her father had multiple gunshot wounds to the
> > head and chest, her mother had had an arm and a leg cut off, she said.
> > “They tortured them,” Ms. Havryliuk said, “and burned them to
> > cover their tracks.”
> >
> > https://www.nytimes.com/2022/05/22/world/europe/ukraine-bucha-war-crimes-russia.html
> US has had a army group called as "the punisher" to violently kill people when invading or in the occupied country. No difference from this, when war is concerned. To win the war, one has to be ruthless in the kill. This is regardless of whether it is a mistake made in the decision to kill or not.

Um, "the Punisher" is a comic book character. You can do better than that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punisher

On Monday, May 30, 2022 at 10:45:07 PM UTC+8, bmoore wrote:
> On Sunday, May 29, 2022 at 9:53:35 AM UTC-7, stoney wrote:
> > On Friday, May 27, 2022 at 1:50:38 PM UTC+8, David P. wrote:
> > > ‘Such Bad Guys Will Come’: How One Russian Brigade Terrorized Bucha
> > > By Carlotta Gall, May 22, 2022, NY Times
> > >
> > > Based in Russia’s far east, near the border with China, the
> > > 64th Brigade belongs to the Eastern Military District, long
> > > seen as the part of the Russian Army with the lowest levels
> > > of training and equipment. The brigade has ethnic Russian
> > > commanders but consists largely of soldiers drawn from minority
> > > ethnic groups and disadvantaged communities, according to
> > > Col. Mykola Krasny, the head of public affairs of Ukrainian
> > > military intelligence. In radio conversations that were
> > > intercepted by Ukrainian forces, some of the Russians expressed
> > > surprise that village roads in outlying areas of Kyiv were
> > > paved with asphalt, he said. “We see it as a deliberate policy
> > > to draft soldiers from depressed regions of Russia,”
> > > Colonel Krasny said.
> > >
> > > Not a lot is known about the brigade, but Colonel Krasny
> > > claimed that it was notable for its lack of morality, for
> > > beatings of soldiers and for thieving. Drawn from a regiment
> > > that had served in Chechnya, the brigade was established on
> > > Jan. 1, 2009, shortly after Russia’s war in Georgia, Colonel
> > > Krasny said. The goal was clear, he added: to build up a
> > > fearsome army unit that could instill control. “The consequences
> > > of these politics was what happened in Bucha,” he said. “Having
> > > no discipline, and these aggressive habits, it looks like it
> > > was created to scare the population.”
> > >
> > > He claimed that the Russian soldiers’ disadvantaged backgrounds,
> > > and the fact that they could act with impunity, prompted them
> > > “to do unspeakable things.” It was not only the enemy who
> > > suffered their brutality. The Russian Army has long had a
> > > reputation for hazing its own soldiers, and on a cellphone
> > > left behind in Bucha by a member of the 64th, investigators
> > > found recent evidence of the practice: a video in which an
> > > officer is talking to a subordinate and then suddenly punches
> > > him in the side of the head while other soldiers stand around
> > > talking. The Russian government did not respond to a request
> > > for comment on the accusations against the 64th Brigade but
> > > has repeatedly claimed that allegations of its forces having
> > > committed atrocities in Bucha and elsewhere are false.
> > >
> > > Western analysts who have studied the Russian Army said that
> > > the behavior of troops in Bucha was not a surprise. “It is
> > > consistent with the way they consider responding,” said Nick
> > > Reynolds, a researcher of land warfare at the Royal United
> > > Services Institute, a military research organization in London.
> > > “Reprisals are part and parcel of how the Russian military does
> > > business.”
> > >
> > > The ‘Bad Guys’ Will Come
> > > ----------------------
> > > Killings occurred in Bucha from the first days that Russian
> > > troops appeared. The first units were airborne assault troops,
> > > paratroopers and special forces who fired on cars and civilians
> > > in the streets and detained men suspected of being in the
> > > Ukrainian Army or territorial defense. The extent of the
> > > killings, and the seeming lack of hesitation among Russian
> > > soldiers to carry them out, has led Ukrainian officials to
> > > surmise that they were acting under orders. “They couldn’t
> > > not know,” Bucha’s prosecutor, Mr. Kravchenko, said of senior
> > > military commanders. “I think the terror was planned.”
> > >
> > > Many of the documented killings occurred on Yablunska Street,
> > > where bodies lay for weeks, visible on satellite images. But
> > > not far away, on a corner of Ivana Franka Street, a particular
> > > form of hell played out after March 12. Residents had already
> > > been warned that things would get worse. A pensioner, Mykola,
> > > 67, said that the Russian troops who first came to the neighbor-
> > > hood had advised him to leave while he could. “‘After us, such
> > > bad guys will come,’” the commander told him, he recalled.
> > > “I think they had radio contact and they knew who was coming,
> > > and they had their own opinion of them.” Mykola left Bucha
> > > before the 64th Brigade arrived.
> > >
> > > The spring flowers are pushing up everywhere in Bucha, fruit
> > > trees are in blossom, and city workers have swept the streets
> > > and filled in some of the bomb craters. But at the end of Ivana
> > > Franka Street, amid smashed cars and destroyed homes, there is
> > > an eerie desolation. “From this house to the end, no one is
> > > left alive,” said Ms. Havryliuk, 65. “Eleven people were killed
> > > here. Only we stayed alive.” Her son and son-in-law had stayed
> > > behind to look after the house and the dogs, and were killed on
> > > March 12 or 13, when the 64th Brigade first arrived, she said.
> > > The death certificates said that they had been shot in the head.
> > >
> > > What happened over the next two weeks is hard to fathom. The
> > > few residents who stayed were confined to their homes and only
> > > occasionally dared to go out to fetch water from a well. Some of
> > > them saw people being detained by the Russians. Nadezhda
> > > Cherednychenko, 50, pleaded with the soldiers to let her son go.
> > > He was being held in the yard of a house and his arm had been
> > > injured when she last saw him. She found him dead in the cellar
> > > of the same house three weeks later, after the Russians withdrew.
> > > “They should be punished,” she said of his captors. “They brought
> > > so much pain to people. Mothers without children, fathers,
> > > children without parents. It’s something you cannot forgive.”
> > >
> > > Neighbors who lived next door to the Havryliuks just disappeared.
> > > Volodymyr and Tetiana Shypilo, a teacher, and their son Andriy, 39,
> > > lived in one part of the house, and Oleh Yarmolenko, 47, lived alone
> > > in the other side. “They were all our relatives,” Ms. Havryliuk said.
> > > Down a side alley lived Lidiya Sydorenko, 62, and her husband Serhiy,
> > > 65. Their daughter, Tetiana Naumova, said that she spoke to them by
> > > telephone midmorning on March 22. “Mother was crying the whole time,”
> > > Ms. Naumova said. “She was usually an optimist, but I think she had a
> > > bad feeling.” Minutes later, Russian soldiers came in and demanded
> > > to search their garage. They told a neighbor to leave, shooting at
> > > the ground by her feet. “By lunchtime they had killed them,”
> > > Ms. Naumova said.
> > >
> > > She returned to the house with her husband, Vitaliy, and her son
> > > Anton last month after the Russian troops withdrew from Kyiv. Her
> > > parents were nowhere to be found, but they found ominous traces —
> > > her father’s hat with bullet holes in it, three pools of blood and
> > > a piece of her mother’s scalp and hair. There was also no sign of
> > > the Shypilos or of Mr. Yarmolenko, except trails of blood where
> > > bodies had been dragged along the floor of their house. Eventually,
> > > French forensic investigators solved the mystery. They examined
> > > six charred bodies found in an empty lot up the street and confirmed
> > > that they were the missing civilians: the Sydorenkos, the 3 Shypilos
> > > and Mr. Yarmolenko. Several bore bullet wounds but three of them had
> > > had limbs severed, including Ms. Naumova’s mother, the investigators
> > > told the families. Her father had multiple gunshot wounds to the
> > > head and chest, her mother had had an arm and a leg cut off, she said..
> > > “They tortured them,” Ms. Havryliuk said, “and burned them to
> > > cover their tracks.”
> > >
> > > https://www.nytimes.com/2022/05/22/world/europe/ukraine-bucha-war-crimes-russia.html
> > US has had a army group called as "the punisher" to violently kill people when invading or in the occupied country. No difference from this, when war is concerned. To win the war, one has to be ruthless in the kill. This is regardless of whether it is a mistake made in the decision to kill or not.
> Um, "the Punisher" is a comic book character. You can do better than that..
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punisher

On Monday, May 30, 2022 at 10:43:08 AM UTC-7, stoney wrote:
> On Monday, May 30, 2022 at 10:45:07 PM UTC+8, bmoore wrote:
> > On Sunday, May 29, 2022 at 9:53:35 AM UTC-7, stoney wrote:
> > > On Friday, May 27, 2022 at 1:50:38 PM UTC+8, David P. wrote:
> > > > ‘Such Bad Guys Will Come’: How One Russian Brigade Terrorized Bucha
> > > > By Carlotta Gall, May 22, 2022, NY Times
> > > >
> > > > Based in Russia’s far east, near the border with China, the
> > > > 64th Brigade belongs to the Eastern Military District, long
> > > > seen as the part of the Russian Army with the lowest levels
> > > > of training and equipment. The brigade has ethnic Russian
> > > > commanders but consists largely of soldiers drawn from minority
> > > > ethnic groups and disadvantaged communities, according to
> > > > Col. Mykola Krasny, the head of public affairs of Ukrainian
> > > > military intelligence. In radio conversations that were
> > > > intercepted by Ukrainian forces, some of the Russians expressed
> > > > surprise that village roads in outlying areas of Kyiv were
> > > > paved with asphalt, he said. “We see it as a deliberate policy
> > > > to draft soldiers from depressed regions of Russia,”
> > > > Colonel Krasny said.
> > > >
> > > > Not a lot is known about the brigade, but Colonel Krasny
> > > > claimed that it was notable for its lack of morality, for
> > > > beatings of soldiers and for thieving. Drawn from a regiment
> > > > that had served in Chechnya, the brigade was established on
> > > > Jan. 1, 2009, shortly after Russia’s war in Georgia, Colonel
> > > > Krasny said. The goal was clear, he added: to build up a
> > > > fearsome army unit that could instill control. “The consequences
> > > > of these politics was what happened in Bucha,” he said. “Having
> > > > no discipline, and these aggressive habits, it looks like it
> > > > was created to scare the population.”
> > > >
> > > > He claimed that the Russian soldiers’ disadvantaged backgrounds,
> > > > and the fact that they could act with impunity, prompted them
> > > > “to do unspeakable things.” It was not only the enemy who
> > > > suffered their brutality. The Russian Army has long had a
> > > > reputation for hazing its own soldiers, and on a cellphone
> > > > left behind in Bucha by a member of the 64th, investigators
> > > > found recent evidence of the practice: a video in which an
> > > > officer is talking to a subordinate and then suddenly punches
> > > > him in the side of the head while other soldiers stand around
> > > > talking. The Russian government did not respond to a request
> > > > for comment on the accusations against the 64th Brigade but
> > > > has repeatedly claimed that allegations of its forces having
> > > > committed atrocities in Bucha and elsewhere are false.
> > > >
> > > > Western analysts who have studied the Russian Army said that
> > > > the behavior of troops in Bucha was not a surprise. “It is
> > > > consistent with the way they consider responding,” said Nick
> > > > Reynolds, a researcher of land warfare at the Royal United
> > > > Services Institute, a military research organization in London.
> > > > “Reprisals are part and parcel of how the Russian military does
> > > > business.”
> > > >
> > > > The ‘Bad Guys’ Will Come
> > > > ----------------------
> > > > Killings occurred in Bucha from the first days that Russian
> > > > troops appeared. The first units were airborne assault troops,
> > > > paratroopers and special forces who fired on cars and civilians
> > > > in the streets and detained men suspected of being in the
> > > > Ukrainian Army or territorial defense. The extent of the
> > > > killings, and the seeming lack of hesitation among Russian
> > > > soldiers to carry them out, has led Ukrainian officials to
> > > > surmise that they were acting under orders. “They couldn’t
> > > > not know,” Bucha’s prosecutor, Mr. Kravchenko, said of senior
> > > > military commanders. “I think the terror was planned.”
> > > >
> > > > Many of the documented killings occurred on Yablunska Street,
> > > > where bodies lay for weeks, visible on satellite images. But
> > > > not far away, on a corner of Ivana Franka Street, a particular
> > > > form of hell played out after March 12. Residents had already
> > > > been warned that things would get worse. A pensioner, Mykola,
> > > > 67, said that the Russian troops who first came to the neighbor-
> > > > hood had advised him to leave while he could. “‘After us, such
> > > > bad guys will come,’” the commander told him, he recalled.
> > > > “I think they had radio contact and they knew who was coming,
> > > > and they had their own opinion of them.” Mykola left Bucha
> > > > before the 64th Brigade arrived.
> > > >
> > > > The spring flowers are pushing up everywhere in Bucha, fruit
> > > > trees are in blossom, and city workers have swept the streets
> > > > and filled in some of the bomb craters. But at the end of Ivana
> > > > Franka Street, amid smashed cars and destroyed homes, there is
> > > > an eerie desolation. “From this house to the end, no one is
> > > > left alive,” said Ms. Havryliuk, 65. “Eleven people were killed
> > > > here. Only we stayed alive.” Her son and son-in-law had stayed
> > > > behind to look after the house and the dogs, and were killed on
> > > > March 12 or 13, when the 64th Brigade first arrived, she said.
> > > > The death certificates said that they had been shot in the head.
> > > >
> > > > What happened over the next two weeks is hard to fathom. The
> > > > few residents who stayed were confined to their homes and only
> > > > occasionally dared to go out to fetch water from a well. Some of
> > > > them saw people being detained by the Russians. Nadezhda
> > > > Cherednychenko, 50, pleaded with the soldiers to let her son go.
> > > > He was being held in the yard of a house and his arm had been
> > > > injured when she last saw him. She found him dead in the cellar
> > > > of the same house three weeks later, after the Russians withdrew.
> > > > “They should be punished,” she said of his captors. “They brought
> > > > so much pain to people. Mothers without children, fathers,
> > > > children without parents. It’s something you cannot forgive..”
> > > >
> > > > Neighbors who lived next door to the Havryliuks just disappeared.
> > > > Volodymyr and Tetiana Shypilo, a teacher, and their son Andriy, 39,
> > > > lived in one part of the house, and Oleh Yarmolenko, 47, lived alone
> > > > in the other side. “They were all our relatives,” Ms. Havryliuk said.
> > > > Down a side alley lived Lidiya Sydorenko, 62, and her husband Serhiy,
> > > > 65. Their daughter, Tetiana Naumova, said that she spoke to them by
> > > > telephone midmorning on March 22. “Mother was crying the whole time,”
> > > > Ms. Naumova said. “She was usually an optimist, but I think she had a
> > > > bad feeling.” Minutes later, Russian soldiers came in and demanded
> > > > to search their garage. They told a neighbor to leave, shooting at
> > > > the ground by her feet. “By lunchtime they had killed them,”
> > > > Ms. Naumova said.
> > > >
> > > > She returned to the house with her husband, Vitaliy, and her son
> > > > Anton last month after the Russian troops withdrew from Kyiv. Her
> > > > parents were nowhere to be found, but they found ominous traces —
> > > > her father’s hat with bullet holes in it, three pools of blood and
> > > > a piece of her mother’s scalp and hair. There was also no sign of
> > > > the Shypilos or of Mr. Yarmolenko, except trails of blood where
> > > > bodies had been dragged along the floor of their house. Eventually,
> > > > French forensic investigators solved the mystery. They examined
> > > > six charred bodies found in an empty lot up the street and confirmed
> > > > that they were the missing civilians: the Sydorenkos, the 3 Shypilos
> > > > and Mr. Yarmolenko. Several bore bullet wounds but three of them had
> > > > had limbs severed, including Ms. Naumova’s mother, the investigators
> > > > told the families. Her father had multiple gunshot wounds to the
> > > > head and chest, her mother had had an arm and a leg cut off, she said.
> > > > “They tortured them,” Ms. Havryliuk said, “and burned them to
> > > > cover their tracks.”
> > > >
> > > > https://www.nytimes.com/2022/05/22/world/europe/ukraine-bucha-war-crimes-russia.html
> > > US has had a army group called as "the punisher" to violently kill people when invading or in the occupied country. No difference from this, when war is concerned. To win the war, one has to be ruthless in the kill. This is regardless of whether it is a mistake made in the decision to kill or not.
> > Um, "the Punisher" is a comic book character. You can do better than that.
> >
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punisher
> You know nuts.

On Wednesday, June 1, 2022 at 9:13:01 AM UTC+8, bmoore wrote:
> On Monday, May 30, 2022 at 10:43:08 AM UTC-7, stoney wrote:
> > On Monday, May 30, 2022 at 10:45:07 PM UTC+8, bmoore wrote:
> > > On Sunday, May 29, 2022 at 9:53:35 AM UTC-7, stoney wrote:
> > > > On Friday, May 27, 2022 at 1:50:38 PM UTC+8, David P. wrote:
> > > > > ‘Such Bad Guys Will Come’: How One Russian Brigade Terrorized Bucha
> > > > > By Carlotta Gall, May 22, 2022, NY Times
> > > > >
> > > > > Based in Russia’s far east, near the border with China, the
> > > > > 64th Brigade belongs to the Eastern Military District, long
> > > > > seen as the part of the Russian Army with the lowest levels
> > > > > of training and equipment. The brigade has ethnic Russian
> > > > > commanders but consists largely of soldiers drawn from minority
> > > > > ethnic groups and disadvantaged communities, according to
> > > > > Col. Mykola Krasny, the head of public affairs of Ukrainian
> > > > > military intelligence. In radio conversations that were
> > > > > intercepted by Ukrainian forces, some of the Russians expressed
> > > > > surprise that village roads in outlying areas of Kyiv were
> > > > > paved with asphalt, he said. “We see it as a deliberate policy
> > > > > to draft soldiers from depressed regions of Russia,”
> > > > > Colonel Krasny said.
> > > > >
> > > > > Not a lot is known about the brigade, but Colonel Krasny
> > > > > claimed that it was notable for its lack of morality, for
> > > > > beatings of soldiers and for thieving. Drawn from a regiment
> > > > > that had served in Chechnya, the brigade was established on
> > > > > Jan. 1, 2009, shortly after Russia’s war in Georgia, Colonel
> > > > > Krasny said. The goal was clear, he added: to build up a
> > > > > fearsome army unit that could instill control. “The consequences
> > > > > of these politics was what happened in Bucha,” he said. “Having
> > > > > no discipline, and these aggressive habits, it looks like it
> > > > > was created to scare the population.”
> > > > >
> > > > > He claimed that the Russian soldiers’ disadvantaged backgrounds,
> > > > > and the fact that they could act with impunity, prompted them
> > > > > “to do unspeakable things.” It was not only the enemy who
> > > > > suffered their brutality. The Russian Army has long had a
> > > > > reputation for hazing its own soldiers, and on a cellphone
> > > > > left behind in Bucha by a member of the 64th, investigators
> > > > > found recent evidence of the practice: a video in which an
> > > > > officer is talking to a subordinate and then suddenly punches
> > > > > him in the side of the head while other soldiers stand around
> > > > > talking. The Russian government did not respond to a request
> > > > > for comment on the accusations against the 64th Brigade but
> > > > > has repeatedly claimed that allegations of its forces having
> > > > > committed atrocities in Bucha and elsewhere are false.
> > > > >
> > > > > Western analysts who have studied the Russian Army said that
> > > > > the behavior of troops in Bucha was not a surprise. “It is
> > > > > consistent with the way they consider responding,” said Nick
> > > > > Reynolds, a researcher of land warfare at the Royal United
> > > > > Services Institute, a military research organization in London.
> > > > > “Reprisals are part and parcel of how the Russian military does
> > > > > business.”
> > > > >
> > > > > The ‘Bad Guys’ Will Come
> > > > > ----------------------
> > > > > Killings occurred in Bucha from the first days that Russian
> > > > > troops appeared. The first units were airborne assault troops,
> > > > > paratroopers and special forces who fired on cars and civilians
> > > > > in the streets and detained men suspected of being in the
> > > > > Ukrainian Army or territorial defense. The extent of the
> > > > > killings, and the seeming lack of hesitation among Russian
> > > > > soldiers to carry them out, has led Ukrainian officials to
> > > > > surmise that they were acting under orders. “They couldn’t
> > > > > not know,” Bucha’s prosecutor, Mr. Kravchenko, said of senior
> > > > > military commanders. “I think the terror was planned.”
> > > > >
> > > > > Many of the documented killings occurred on Yablunska Street,
> > > > > where bodies lay for weeks, visible on satellite images. But
> > > > > not far away, on a corner of Ivana Franka Street, a particular
> > > > > form of hell played out after March 12. Residents had already
> > > > > been warned that things would get worse. A pensioner, Mykola,
> > > > > 67, said that the Russian troops who first came to the neighbor-
> > > > > hood had advised him to leave while he could. “‘After us, such
> > > > > bad guys will come,’” the commander told him, he recalled.
> > > > > “I think they had radio contact and they knew who was coming,
> > > > > and they had their own opinion of them.” Mykola left Bucha
> > > > > before the 64th Brigade arrived.
> > > > >
> > > > > The spring flowers are pushing up everywhere in Bucha, fruit
> > > > > trees are in blossom, and city workers have swept the streets
> > > > > and filled in some of the bomb craters. But at the end of Ivana
> > > > > Franka Street, amid smashed cars and destroyed homes, there is
> > > > > an eerie desolation. “From this house to the end, no one is
> > > > > left alive,” said Ms. Havryliuk, 65. “Eleven people were killed
> > > > > here. Only we stayed alive.” Her son and son-in-law had stayed
> > > > > behind to look after the house and the dogs, and were killed on
> > > > > March 12 or 13, when the 64th Brigade first arrived, she said.
> > > > > The death certificates said that they had been shot in the head.
> > > > >
> > > > > What happened over the next two weeks is hard to fathom. The
> > > > > few residents who stayed were confined to their homes and only
> > > > > occasionally dared to go out to fetch water from a well. Some of
> > > > > them saw people being detained by the Russians. Nadezhda
> > > > > Cherednychenko, 50, pleaded with the soldiers to let her son go.
> > > > > He was being held in the yard of a house and his arm had been
> > > > > injured when she last saw him. She found him dead in the cellar
> > > > > of the same house three weeks later, after the Russians withdrew.
> > > > > “They should be punished,” she said of his captors. “They brought
> > > > > so much pain to people. Mothers without children, fathers,
> > > > > children without parents. It’s something you cannot forgive.”
> > > > >
> > > > > Neighbors who lived next door to the Havryliuks just disappeared.
> > > > > Volodymyr and Tetiana Shypilo, a teacher, and their son Andriy, 39,
> > > > > lived in one part of the house, and Oleh Yarmolenko, 47, lived alone
> > > > > in the other side. “They were all our relatives,” Ms. Havryliuk said.
> > > > > Down a side alley lived Lidiya Sydorenko, 62, and her husband Serhiy,
> > > > > 65. Their daughter, Tetiana Naumova, said that she spoke to them by
> > > > > telephone midmorning on March 22. “Mother was crying the whole time,”
> > > > > Ms. Naumova said. “She was usually an optimist, but I think she had a
> > > > > bad feeling.” Minutes later, Russian soldiers came in and demanded
> > > > > to search their garage. They told a neighbor to leave, shooting at
> > > > > the ground by her feet. “By lunchtime they had killed them,”
> > > > > Ms. Naumova said.
> > > > >
> > > > > She returned to the house with her husband, Vitaliy, and her son
> > > > > Anton last month after the Russian troops withdrew from Kyiv. Her
> > > > > parents were nowhere to be found, but they found ominous traces —
> > > > > her father’s hat with bullet holes in it, three pools of blood and
> > > > > a piece of her mother’s scalp and hair. There was also no sign of
> > > > > the Shypilos or of Mr. Yarmolenko, except trails of blood where
> > > > > bodies had been dragged along the floor of their house. Eventually,
> > > > > French forensic investigators solved the mystery. They examined
> > > > > six charred bodies found in an empty lot up the street and confirmed
> > > > > that they were the missing civilians: the Sydorenkos, the 3 Shypilos
> > > > > and Mr. Yarmolenko. Several bore bullet wounds but three of them had
> > > > > had limbs severed, including Ms. Naumova’s mother, the investigators
> > > > > told the families. Her father had multiple gunshot wounds to the
> > > > > head and chest, her mother had had an arm and a leg cut off, she said.
> > > > > “They tortured them,” Ms. Havryliuk said, “and burned them to
> > > > > cover their tracks.”
> > > > >
> > > > > https://www.nytimes.com/2022/05/22/world/europe/ukraine-bucha-war-crimes-russia.html
> > > > US has had a army group called as "the punisher" to violently kill people when invading or in the occupied country. No difference from this, when war is concerned. To win the war, one has to be ruthless in the kill. This is regardless of whether it is a mistake made in the decision to kill or not.
> > > Um, "the Punisher" is a comic book character. You can do better than that.
> > >
> > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punisher
> > You know nuts.
> LOL. You can do better. Try the truth for once.

stoney, <news:587cae29-d1dd-45e0-b187-371c6773aa3dn@googlegroups.com>
> On Friday, May 27, 2022 at 1:50:38 PM UTC+8, David P. wrote:

>> Based in Russia's far east, near the border with China, the
>> 64th Brigade belongs to the Eastern Military District, long

>> commanders but consists largely of soldiers drawn from minority
>> ethnic groups and disadvantaged communities, according to

>> Krasny said. The goal was clear, he added: to build up a
>> fearsome army unit that could instill control. "The consequences
>> of these politics was what happened in Bucha," he said. "Having

> US has had a army group called as "the punisher" to violently kill
> people when invading or in the occupied country. No difference from
> this, when war is concerned. To win the war, one has to be ruthless
> in the kill. This is regardless of whether it is a mistake made in
> the decision to kill or not.

Ruthlessness might be good against a military adversary, but
against non-combatants it's certainly not good. And what's going
on in the Ukraine is not a tribal war where one tribe would seek
to subdue another tribe though ruthless killing and terrorizing
of all their men. The Russian objective is to undermine the Kiev
regime as an institution that feeds its populace with hateful
stupidification and nurtures Nazi(-like) factions under its cover.
It's not only for humanitarian reasons (the hateful regime is
bad) but also because such a regime, if it's well-militarized and
integrated within the NATO structures, would exacerbate strategic
security threats to Russia. One might dispute on how the military
way, chosen by the Kremlin, is adequate to this objective, but
anyway it doesn't suppose ruthless intimidation of the populace.

The Kiev's agenda is asymmetric, and their propaganda seeks "to
mobilize" the populace against "the Russians" in a tribalist way,
- so they promote the idea that the Russian intentional approach
is to apply a "fearsome army that could instill control" through
ruthless indiscriminate genocidal terror, like primitive savages
would do, so the Russian troops are supposed to be such primitive
savages, especially those "minority ethnic groups" which are
supposed to be taken from the "Russia's far east, near the border
with China" (as it's especially accentuated in the article).

In other words, what they actually seek to say is, they've become
subjected to invasion of "asiatic horde" akin to those Mongols or
Huns from the past.