On Friday, March 18, 2022 at 8:36:39 AM UTC, David P. wrote:
> Why didn't Russia, Ukraine, and Belarus join the
> European Union? They joined the United Nations!!
> --
> --

Yeltsin as well as Putin had sought to join NATO.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/nov/04/ex-nato-head-says-putin-wanted-to-join-alliance-early-on-in-his-rule

"The Labour peer recalled an early meeting with Putin, who became Russian president in 2000. “Putin said: ‘When are you going to invite us to join Nato?’ And [Robertson] said: ‘Well, we don’t invite people to join Nato, they apply to join Nato.’ And he said: ‘Well, we’re not standing in line with a lot of countries that don’t matter.’”

The account chimes with what Putin told the late David Frost in a BBC interview shortly before he was first inaugurated as Russian president more than 21 years ago. Putin told Frost he would not rule out joining Nato “if and when Russia’s views are taken into account as those of an equal partner”.

He told Frost it was hard for him to visualise Nato as an enemy. “Russia is part of the European culture. And I cannot imagine my own country in isolation from Europe and what we often call the civilised world.”"

On Friday, March 18, 2022 at 6:45:00 PM UTC+8, ltlee1 wrote:
> On Friday, March 18, 2022 at 8:36:39 AM UTC, David P. wrote:
> > Why didn't Russia, Ukraine, and Belarus join the
> > European Union? They joined the United Nations!!
> > --
> > --
> Yeltsin as well as Putin had sought to join NATO.
> https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/nov/04/ex-nato-head-says-putin-wanted-to-join-alliance-early-on-in-his-rule
>
> "The Labour peer recalled an early meeting with Putin, who became Russian president in 2000. “Putin said: ‘When are you going to invite us to join Nato?’ And [Robertson] said: ‘Well, we don’t invite people to join Nato, they apply to join Nato.’ And he said: ‘Well, we’re not standing in line with a lot of countries that don’t matter.’”
>
> The account chimes with what Putin told the late David Frost in a BBC interview shortly before he was first inaugurated as Russian president more than 21 years ago. Putin told Frost he would not rule out joining Nato “if and when Russia’s views are taken into account as those of an equal partner”.
>
> He told Frost it was hard for him to visualise Nato as an enemy. “Russia is part of the European culture. And I cannot imagine my own country in isolation from Europe and what we often call the civilised world.”"

US has used Russia and China as their competitive powers. Hence, even if they like to gave them as friends and equal partners, they decided not to give them as equal, but to use them as their enemies against US so that they have more media leverage to talk about these countries while their own country was in deep situation with deficit every year.

They want to seek more money in October/November from Congress for more money to pay its civil service public employees. This is a perennial problem with every year asking for tax payer monies to pay their civil service staff which is bloated and over-fed by their staff paying them.

On Friday, March 18, 2022 at 10:45:00 AM UTC, ltlee1 wrote:
> On Friday, March 18, 2022 at 8:36:39 AM UTC, David P. wrote:
> > Why didn't Russia, Ukraine, and Belarus join the
> > European Union? They joined the United Nations!!
> > --
> > --
> Yeltsin as well as Putin had sought to join NATO.
> https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/nov/04/ex-nato-head-says-putin-wanted-to-join-alliance-early-on-in-his-rule
>
> "The Labour peer recalled an early meeting with Putin, who became Russian president in 2000. “Putin said: ‘When are you going to invite us to join Nato?’ And [Robertson] said: ‘Well, we don’t invite people to join Nato, they apply to join Nato.’ And he said: ‘Well, we’re not standing in line with a lot of countries that don’t matter.’”
>
> The account chimes with what Putin told the late David Frost in a BBC interview shortly before he was first inaugurated as Russian president more than 21 years ago. Putin told Frost he would not rule out joining Nato “if and when Russia’s views are taken into account as those of an equal partner”.
>
> He told Frost it was hard for him to visualise Nato as an enemy. “Russia is part of the European culture. And I cannot imagine my own country in isolation from Europe and what we often call the civilised world.”"

But of course, Putin changed his view about the West with time.
The Guardian.com article continues with the following:

"After the Orange Revolution street protests in Ukraine in 2004, Putin became increasingly suspicious of the west, which he blamed for funding pro-democracy NGOs. He was further angered by Nato’s continuing expansion into central and eastern Europe: Romania, Bulgaria, Slovakia, Slovenia, Latvia, Estonia and Lithuania chose to join the alliance in 2004; Croatia and Albania followed in 2009. Georgia and Ukraine were promised membership in 2008 but have remained outside."

On Friday, March 18, 2022 at 11:27:38 PM UTC, ltlee1 wrote:
> On Friday, March 18, 2022 at 10:45:00 AM UTC, ltlee1 wrote:
> > On Friday, March 18, 2022 at 8:36:39 AM UTC, David P. wrote:
> > > Why didn't Russia, Ukraine, and Belarus join the
> > > European Union? They joined the United Nations!!
> > > --
> > > --
> > Yeltsin as well as Putin had sought to join NATO.
> > https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/nov/04/ex-nato-head-says-putin-wanted-to-join-alliance-early-on-in-his-rule
> >
> > "The Labour peer recalled an early meeting with Putin, who became Russian president in 2000. “Putin said: ‘When are you going to invite us to join Nato?’ And [Robertson] said: ‘Well, we don’t invite people to join Nato, they apply to join Nato.’ And he said: ‘Well, we’re not standing in line with a lot of countries that don’t matter.’”
> >
> > The account chimes with what Putin told the late David Frost in a BBC interview shortly before he was first inaugurated as Russian president more than 21 years ago. Putin told Frost he would not rule out joining Nato “if and when Russia’s views are taken into account as those of an equal partner”.
> >
> > He told Frost it was hard for him to visualise Nato as an enemy. “Russia is part of the European culture. And I cannot imagine my own country in isolation from Europe and what we often call the civilised world.”"
> But of course, Putin changed his view about the West with time.
> The Guardian.com article continues with the following:
>
> "After the Orange Revolution street protests in Ukraine in 2004, Putin became increasingly suspicious of the west, which he blamed for funding pro-democracy NGOs. He was further angered by Nato’s continuing expansion into central and eastern Europe: Romania, Bulgaria, Slovakia, Slovenia, Latvia, Estonia and Lithuania chose to join the alliance in 2004; Croatia and Albania followed in 2009. Georgia and Ukraine were promised membership in 2008 but have remained outside."

Besides color Revolution, Putin has other reasons to suspect US/West. And 2004 was indeed the year when the US/West had lost Putin/Russia.
Some news items from 2004.

1. Putin addressed Russia following the Beslan Massacre. He kind of
blamed America for it.

1. http://www.moscowtimes.ru/stories/2004/09/06/002.html
"In his address, Putin chose not to specify what terrorist
organizations are waging a war against Russia. But in a clearly
emotional outburst he revealed that the Kremlin believes some
countries could be supporting the terrorist attacks to try to weaken
Russia, whose nuclear deterrent they see as a threat.

The efforts to "tear off a big chunk of our country" are being
assisted by those who "think that Russia, as one of the greatest
nuclear powers of the world, is still a threat, and this threat has to
be eliminated."

Putin did not say what countries he was referring to, but he appeared
to have Western countries in mind."

2. Putin clashed with US over what Russia could do with Chechyna.

http://www.washtimes.com/world/20040908-121147-2686r.htm
"The United States and Russia clashed yesterday over a way to end the
conflict in the breakaway republic of Chechnya, with Washington
calling for a political solution and Moscow vowing to crush the
separatist movement.
Days after a school siege in the Northern Ossetia region that
claimed at least 350 lives, Russian President Vladimir Putin accused
the West — and the United States in particular — of having a double
standard when dealing with terrorism.
"Why don't you meet Osama bin Laden, invite him to Brussels or to
the White House and engage in talks, ask him what he wants and give it
to him so he leaves you in peace?" Mr. Putin told foreign reporters in
Moscow late Monday."

"David P." wrote in message
news:8cb8cb85-69d3-4ee4-80e6-e5849a8acd69n@googlegroups.com...
>
> Why did the USA have to help with European security issues for the last
> 105 years?

As I've said before: The next time you Eurofucks start a world war, you'll
be on your own. Twice in the last century we had to come over and put an end
to world wars that YOU started. Sure, we'll loan you all the money and send
you all the materiel you need to duke it out, but "boots on the ground"?
FORGET IT! This time we'll just stand back and let the corpses fall where
they may, which is what we should have done a hundred years ago...

On Friday, March 18, 2022 at 11:36:14 PM UTC, David P. wrote:
> ltlee1 wrote:
> > ltlee1 wrote:
> > > David P. wrote:
> > > > Why didn't Russia, Ukraine, and Belarus join the
> > > > European Union? They joined the United Nations!!
> > > > --
> > > Yeltsin as well as Putin had sought to join NATO.
> > > https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/nov/04/ex-nato-head-says-putin-wanted-to-join-alliance-early-on-in-his-rule
> > >
> > > "The Labour peer recalled an early meeting with Putin, who became Russian president in 2000. “Putin said: ‘When are you going to invite us to join Nato?’ And [Robertson] said: ‘Well, we don’t invite people to join Nato, they apply to join Nato.’ And he said: ‘Well, we’re not standing in line with a lot of countries that don’t matter.’”
> > >
> > > The account chimes with what Putin told the late David Frost in a BBC interview shortly before he was first inaugurated as Russian president more than 21 years ago. Putin told Frost he would not rule out joining Nato “if and when Russia’s views are taken into account as those of an equal partner”.
> > >
> > > He told Frost it was hard for him to visualise Nato as an enemy. “Russia is part of the European culture. And I cannot imagine my own country in isolation from Europe and what we often call the civilised world.”"
> > But of course, Putin changed his view about the West with time.
> > The Guardian.com article continues with the following:
> >
> > "After the Orange Revolution street protests in Ukraine in 2004, Putin became increasingly suspicious of the west, which he blamed for funding pro-democracy NGOs. He was further angered by Nato’s continuing expansion into central and eastern Europe: Romania, Bulgaria, Slovakia, Slovenia, Latvia, Estonia and Lithuania chose to join the alliance in 2004; Croatia and Albania followed in 2009. Georgia and Ukraine were promised membership in 2008 but have remained outside."
> -------------------
> Why did the USA have to help with European security issues
> for the last 105 years?
> --
> --

Some years during the 105 years.
The US also financed various European nations including Germany prior WWI and WWII.
At present, is NATO a force for European security or a tool of continuous domination? Only history can tell.

On Saturday, March 19, 2022 at 1:31:08 PM UTC, ltlee1 wrote:
> On Friday, March 18, 2022 at 11:27:38 PM UTC, ltlee1 wrote:
> > On Friday, March 18, 2022 at 10:45:00 AM UTC, ltlee1 wrote:
> > > On Friday, March 18, 2022 at 8:36:39 AM UTC, David P. wrote:
> > > > Why didn't Russia, Ukraine, and Belarus join the
> > > > European Union? They joined the United Nations!!
> > > > --
> > > > --
> > > Yeltsin as well as Putin had sought to join NATO.
> > > https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/nov/04/ex-nato-head-says-putin-wanted-to-join-alliance-early-on-in-his-rule
> > >
> > > "The Labour peer recalled an early meeting with Putin, who became Russian president in 2000. “Putin said: ‘When are you going to invite us to join Nato?’ And [Robertson] said: ‘Well, we don’t invite people to join Nato, they apply to join Nato.’ And he said: ‘Well, we’re not standing in line with a lot of countries that don’t matter.’”
> > >
> > > The account chimes with what Putin told the late David Frost in a BBC interview shortly before he was first inaugurated as Russian president more than 21 years ago. Putin told Frost he would not rule out joining Nato “if and when Russia’s views are taken into account as those of an equal partner”.
> > >
> > > He told Frost it was hard for him to visualise Nato as an enemy. “Russia is part of the European culture. And I cannot imagine my own country in isolation from Europe and what we often call the civilised world.”"
> > But of course, Putin changed his view about the West with time.
> > The Guardian.com article continues with the following:
> >
> > "After the Orange Revolution street protests in Ukraine in 2004, Putin became increasingly suspicious of the west, which he blamed for funding pro-democracy NGOs. He was further angered by Nato’s continuing expansion into central and eastern Europe: Romania, Bulgaria, Slovakia, Slovenia, Latvia, Estonia and Lithuania chose to join the alliance in 2004; Croatia and Albania followed in 2009. Georgia and Ukraine were promised membership in 2008 but have remained outside."
> Besides color Revolution, Putin has other reasons to suspect US/West. And 2004 was indeed the year when the US/West had lost Putin/Russia.
> Some news items from 2004.
>
> 1. Putin addressed Russia following the Beslan Massacre. He kind of
> blamed America for it.
>
> 1. http://www.moscowtimes.ru/stories/2004/09/06/002.html
> "In his address, Putin chose not to specify what terrorist
> organizations are waging a war against Russia. But in a clearly
> emotional outburst he revealed that the Kremlin believes some
> countries could be supporting the terrorist attacks to try to weaken
> Russia, whose nuclear deterrent they see as a threat.
>
> The efforts to "tear off a big chunk of our country" are being
> assisted by those who "think that Russia, as one of the greatest
> nuclear powers of the world, is still a threat, and this threat has to
> be eliminated."
>
> Putin did not say what countries he was referring to, but he appeared
> to have Western countries in mind."
>
> 2. Putin clashed with US over what Russia could do with Chechyna.
>
> http://www.washtimes.com/world/20040908-121147-2686r.htm
> "The United States and Russia clashed yesterday over a way to end the
> conflict in the breakaway republic of Chechnya, with Washington
> calling for a political solution and Moscow vowing to crush the
> separatist movement.
> Days after a school siege in the Northern Ossetia region that
> claimed at least 350 lives, Russian President Vladimir Putin accused
> the West — and the United States in particular — of having a double
> standard when dealing with terrorism.
> "Why don't you meet Osama bin Laden, invite him to Brussels or to
> the White House and engage in talks, ask him what he wants and give it
> to him so he leaves you in peace?" Mr. Putin told foreign reporters in
> Moscow late Monday."

3. Talking up Russian threat in the U.S.

Alexei Bayer wrote in his Oct. 8 WSJ article "Russia off the Radar
Screen":

"[F]oreign policy elites in Washington have been mislead by their own
claims and have come to believe that the U.S. is now the world's only
military superpower, holding an overwhelming advantage over any
potential rival. This is patent nonsense."

"The Pentagon Budget may be larger than the sum total of what the rest
of the world spends on defense, but Russia can still incinerate all of
the U.S. in about 15 minutes - hardly a condition for world domination
by Washington."

4. Among those who traded oil future for a living, some believed that the US, with the
help of Saudi Arabia, had engineer the large drop in crude price during the last half of
the second half of the 1980s. Such drop deprived the USSR of foreign currency
from oil export and exacerbated USSR economic problems at home.
And indirectly contributed to its implosion. The price of crude recovered since 2002
and Russian economy improved quite a lot since Putin had taken power. Some
Moscow elites thought the US had a darker intention, i.e. it wanted to gain control of
Russian oil as a mean to preclude Russia's rise again.

https://terrorstate.blogspot.com/2004/12/gaining-control-of-russian-oil.html

"In other words, the "negotiated settlement" in Chechnya, which the US
Secretary of Defence, Colin Powell, has instructed the Russian
government to seek, is the way to prevent Russia from ever counter-balancing the
United States in world affairs, and to get the oil price down.

Where is the connection?
Chechnya borders Georgia, and Georgia, like Azerbaidjan, is on the
fast track to join NATO. There are already hundreds of US troops in
Georgia, training the local forces. They are there for two reasons: first, to
protect the US-built Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan pipeline; secondly - and this follows
from the first - to assist Georgia in recuperating her two secessionist
territories, South Ossetia and Abkhazia. It will not do to have Russia
anywhere close to the pipeline, and she has troops in both these
areas.
Pushing Russia comprehensively out of the Caucasus, and humiliating
her, requires victory for the Chechens. An independent Chechnya may also be
the prelude to the longer-term break-up of Russia herself: the CIA
predicted that oil-rich Siberia might escape Moscow's control in its report,
Global Trends 2015, published in April.

This imperative of getting the oil price down, and of establishing control
over the sources and transport of hydrocarbons, and has become all the
more urgent as the situation in Iraq deteriorates. Oddly enough, it was
Mikhaïl Khodorkovsky, the now-imprisoned Russian oil billionaire, who first
drew my attention to the true American war aims in Iraq, when Chris Sanders
and I met him in September 2002.[iv] Khodorkovksy feared that if the US
gained control of the Iraqi oilfields, it would pump out so much oil that the
price would fall to $12 a barrel. This, he told me, would destroy the
Russian oil industry and Russia herself. His worst fears have gone unfulfilled

On 2022-03-20, Byker <byker@do~rag.net> wrote:
> "David P." wrote in message
> news:8cb8cb85-69d3-4ee4-80e6-e5849a8acd69n@googlegroups.com...
>>
>> Why did the USA have to help with European security issues for the last
>> 105 years?
>
> As I've said before: The next time you Eurofucks start a world war, you'll
> be on your own. Twice in the last century we had to come over and put an end
> to world wars that YOU started.

Russia did far more to put a stop to World War 2 than the USA. In both
wars, it took attacks on your shipping and military bases before you
decided to enter the fray. Of course, in your mind, your late entry
somehow magically erases the three or four years of fighting before you
decided to get out of bed.

> Sure, we'll loan you all the money and send
> you all the materiel you need to duke it out, but "boots on the ground"?
> FORGET IT! This time we'll just stand back and let the corpses fall where
> they may, which is what we should have done a hundred years ago...

You'll do whatever your ruling elite tells you to. That's where all
your talk of freedom always ends.

Incubus wrote:
>
> Russia did far more to put a stop to World War 2 than the USA.

And had it not been for Lend-Lease, Oleg and his ilk would be speaking
German. And they KNOW it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fcpUdhj-9A8&t=30s

Yeah, Oleg, keep that in mind the next time you see footage of Marshal
Zhukov being driven around in a U.S.-made Willys jeep:
https://share.america.gov/america-sent-equipment-to-soviet-union-in-world-war-ii/

On Tuesday, March 22, 2022 at 4:44:52 PM UTC, Byker wrote:
> Incubus wrote:
> >
> > Russia did far more to put a stop to World War 2 than the USA.
> And had it not been for Lend-Lease, Oleg and his ilk would be speaking
> German. And they KNOW it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fcpUdhj-9A8&t=30s
>
> Yeah, Oleg, keep that in mind the next time you see footage of Marshal
> Zhukov being driven around in a U.S.-made Willys jeep:
> https://share.america.gov/america-sent-equipment-to-soviet-union-in-world-war-ii/

Which nation is strong enough such that Russia has to ask for help?
Without doubt, the US is militarily the strongest.
But then don't forget, Russia has as many nuclear weapons as the US.

On Wednesday, March 23, 2022 at 8:41:18 PM UTC+8, ltlee1 wrote:
> On Tuesday, March 22, 2022 at 4:44:52 PM UTC, Byker wrote:
> > Incubus wrote:
> > >
> > > Russia did far more to put a stop to World War 2 than the USA.
> > And had it not been for Lend-Lease, Oleg and his ilk would be speaking
> > German. And they KNOW it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fcpUdhj-9A8&t=30s
> >
> > Yeah, Oleg, keep that in mind the next time you see footage of Marshal
> > Zhukov being driven around in a U.S.-made Willys jeep:
> > https://share.america.gov/america-sent-equipment-to-soviet-union-in-world-war-ii/
> Which nation is strong enough such that Russia has to ask for help?
> Without doubt, the US is militarily the strongest.
> But then don't forget, Russia has as many nuclear weapons as the US.

Nuclear weapons are deterrents for defense.

stoney <zanzibar_duck@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Wednesday, March 23, 2022 at 8:41:18 PM UTC+8, ltlee1 wrote:
>> On Tuesday, March 22, 2022 at 4:44:52 PM UTC, Byker wrote:
>> > Incubus wrote:
>> > >
>> > > Russia did far more to put a stop to World War 2 than the USA.
>> > And had it not been for Lend-Lease, Oleg and his ilk would be speaking
>> > German. And they KNOW it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fcpUdhj-9A8&t=30s
>> >
>> > Yeah, Oleg, keep that in mind the next time you see footage of Marshal
>> > Zhukov being driven around in a U.S.-made Willys jeep:
>> > https://share.america.gov/america-sent-equipment-to-soviet-union-in-world-war-ii/
>> Which nation is strong enough such that Russia has to ask for help?
>> Without doubt, the US is militarily the strongest.
>> But then don't forget, Russia has as many nuclear weapons as the US.
>
> Nuclear weapons are deterrents for defense.

Can't they be used any other way?

AFAIR Classical justification of nuke strikes against Hiroshima and
Nagasaki has been to avoid deaths during _invasion of Japan_.
To put in another way: force _unconditional_ surrender.
Making it "defense" is at very least "(wide) open to challenges".

Israel strikes against Iraq nuclear program had been intended to make
Iraq without means of defense, hadn't they? :-)

--
A. Filip : Big (Tech) Brother is watching you.
| Life would be so much easier if we could just look at the source
| code. (Dave Olson)

On Thursday, March 24, 2022 at 12:48:45 PM UTC, A. Filip wrote:
> stoney <zanzib...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > On Wednesday, March 23, 2022 at 8:41:18 PM UTC+8, ltlee1 wrote:
> >> On Tuesday, March 22, 2022 at 4:44:52 PM UTC, Byker wrote:
> >> > Incubus wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > > Russia did far more to put a stop to World War 2 than the USA.
> >> > And had it not been for Lend-Lease, Oleg and his ilk would be speaking
> >> > German. And they KNOW it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fcpUdhj-9A8&t=30s
> >> >
> >> > Yeah, Oleg, keep that in mind the next time you see footage of Marshal
> >> > Zhukov being driven around in a U.S.-made Willys jeep:
> >> > https://share.america.gov/america-sent-equipment-to-soviet-union-in-world-war-ii/
> >> Which nation is strong enough such that Russia has to ask for help?
> >> Without doubt, the US is militarily the strongest.
> >> But then don't forget, Russia has as many nuclear weapons as the US.
> >
> > Nuclear weapons are deterrents for defense.
> Can't they be used any other way?
>
> AFAIR Classical justification of nuke strikes against Hiroshima and
> Nagasaki has been to avoid deaths during _invasion of Japan_.
> To put in another way: force _unconditional_ surrender.
> Making it "defense" is at very least "(wide) open to challenges".

The US sees Russia's nuclear weapon stockpile as an existential threat.
Russia, in return, sees Ukraine joining NATO as an existential threat.
Russia could win mano e mano. So it signals the use of nuclear weapons to preclude
third party involvement. Is this defensive?
>
> Israel strikes against Iraq nuclear program had been intended to make
> Iraq without means of defense, hadn't they? :-)
>
> --
> A. Filip : Big (Tech) Brother is watching you.
> | Life would be so much easier if we could just look at the source
> | code. (Dave Olson)

On Thursday, March 24, 2022 at 5:30:26 PM UTC-7, David P. wrote:
> ltlee1 wrote:
> > A. Filip wrote:
> > > stoney wrote:
> > > > , ltlee1 wrote:
> > > >> Byker wrote:
> > > >> > Incubus wrote:
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > Russia did far more to put a stop to World War 2 than the USA.
> > > >> > And had it not been for Lend-Lease, Oleg and his ilk would be speaking
> > > >> > German. And they KNOW it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fcpUdhj-9A8&t=30s
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Yeah, Oleg, keep that in mind the next time you see footage of Marshal
> > > >> > Zhukov being driven around in a U.S.-made Willys jeep:
> > > >> > https://share.america.gov/america-sent-equipment-to-soviet-union-in-world-war-ii/
> > > >> Which nation is strong enough such that Russia has to ask for help?
> > > >> Without doubt, the US is militarily the strongest.
> > > >> But then don't forget, Russia has as many nuclear weapons as the US.
> > > >
> > > > Nuclear weapons are deterrents for defense.
> > > Can't they be used any other way?
> > >
> > > AFAIR Classical justification of nuke strikes against Hiroshima and
> > > Nagasaki has been to avoid deaths during _invasion of Japan_.
> > > To put in another way: force _unconditional_ surrender.
> > > Making it "defense" is at very least "(wide) open to challenges".
> >-----------------
> > The US sees Russia's nuclear weapon stockpile as an existential threat.
> > Russia, in return, sees Ukraine joining NATO as an existential threat.
> > Russia could win mano e mano. So it signals the use of nuclear weapons to preclude
> > third party involvement. Is this defensive?
> ----------------------
> Jennifer Rankin in Brussels, 4 Nov 2021
> "The Labour peer recalled an early meeting with Putin,
> who became Russian president in 2000. “Putin said:
> ‘When are you going to invite us to join NATO?’ And
> [Robertson] said: ‘Well, we don’t invite people to join
> NATO, they apply to join NATO.’ And he said: ‘Well, we’re
> not standing in line with a lot of countries that don’t matter.’”
>
> The account chimes with what Putin told the late David Frost
> in a BBC interview shortly before he was first inaugurated
> as Russian president more than 21 years ago. Putin told Frost
> he would not rule out joining NATO “if and when Russia’s views
> are taken into account as those of an equal partner”.
> He told Frost it was hard for him to visualise NATO as an enemy.
> “Russia is part of the European culture. And I cannot imagine
> my own country in isolation from Europe and what we often call
> the civilised world.”"
> https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/nov/04/ex-nato-head-says-putin-wanted-to-join-alliance-early-on-in-his-rule

Putin started as an elected leader, but that ship has sailed. He is now a brutal dictator. Too bad.

On Friday, March 25, 2022 at 1:32:00 AM UTC, bmoore wrote:
> On Thursday, March 24, 2022 at 5:30:26 PM UTC-7, David P. wrote:
> > ltlee1 wrote:
> > > A. Filip wrote:
> > > > stoney wrote:
> > > > > , ltlee1 wrote:
> > > > >> Byker wrote:
> > > > >> > Incubus wrote:
> > > > >> > >
> > > > >> > > Russia did far more to put a stop to World War 2 than the USA.
> > > > >> > And had it not been for Lend-Lease, Oleg and his ilk would be speaking
> > > > >> > German. And they KNOW it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fcpUdhj-9A8&t=30s
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > Yeah, Oleg, keep that in mind the next time you see footage of Marshal
> > > > >> > Zhukov being driven around in a U.S.-made Willys jeep:
> > > > >> > https://share.america.gov/america-sent-equipment-to-soviet-union-in-world-war-ii/
> > > > >> Which nation is strong enough such that Russia has to ask for help?
> > > > >> Without doubt, the US is militarily the strongest.
> > > > >> But then don't forget, Russia has as many nuclear weapons as the US.
> > > > >
> > > > > Nuclear weapons are deterrents for defense.
> > > > Can't they be used any other way?
> > > >
> > > > AFAIR Classical justification of nuke strikes against Hiroshima and
> > > > Nagasaki has been to avoid deaths during _invasion of Japan_.
> > > > To put in another way: force _unconditional_ surrender.
> > > > Making it "defense" is at very least "(wide) open to challenges".
> > >-----------------
> > > The US sees Russia's nuclear weapon stockpile as an existential threat.
> > > Russia, in return, sees Ukraine joining NATO as an existential threat..
> > > Russia could win mano e mano. So it signals the use of nuclear weapons to preclude
> > > third party involvement. Is this defensive?
> > ----------------------
> > Jennifer Rankin in Brussels, 4 Nov 2021
> > "The Labour peer recalled an early meeting with Putin,
> > who became Russian president in 2000. “Putin said:
> > ‘When are you going to invite us to join NATO?’ And
> > [Robertson] said: ‘Well, we don’t invite people to join
> > NATO, they apply to join NATO.’ And he said: ‘Well, we’re
> > not standing in line with a lot of countries that don’t matter.’”
> >
> > The account chimes with what Putin told the late David Frost
> > in a BBC interview shortly before he was first inaugurated
> > as Russian president more than 21 years ago. Putin told Frost
> > he would not rule out joining NATO “if and when Russia’s views
> > are taken into account as those of an equal partner”.
> > He told Frost it was hard for him to visualise NATO as an enemy.
> > “Russia is part of the European culture. And I cannot imagine
> > my own country in isolation from Europe and what we often call
> > the civilised world.”"
> > https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/nov/04/ex-nato-head-says-putin-wanted-to-join-alliance-early-on-in-his-rule
> Putin started as an elected leader, but that ship has sailed. He is now a brutal dictator. Too bad.

Relevant statistical information please.
For example, how many Russian citizens had been unjustedly silenced with and without fatal forces.

On Friday, March 25, 2022 at 6:03:07 AM UTC, David P. wrote:
> , bmoore wrote:
> > David P. wrote:
> > > ltlee1 wrote:
> > > > A. Filip wrote:
> > > > > stoney wrote:
> > > > > > , ltlee1 wrote:
> > > > > >> Byker wrote:
> > > > > >> > Incubus wrote:
> > > > > >> > >
> > > > > >> > > Russia did far more to put a stop to World War 2 than the USA.
> > > > > >> > And had it not been for Lend-Lease, Oleg and his ilk would be speaking
> > > > > >> > German. And they KNOW it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fcpUdhj-9A8&t=30s
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > Yeah, Oleg, keep that in mind the next time you see footage of Marshal
> > > > > >> > Zhukov being driven around in a U.S.-made Willys jeep:
> > > > > >> > https://share.america.gov/america-sent-equipment-to-soviet-union-in-world-war-ii/
> > > > > >> Which nation is strong enough such that Russia has to ask for help?
> > > > > >> Without doubt, the US is militarily the strongest.
> > > > > >> But then don't forget, Russia has as many nuclear weapons as the US.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Nuclear weapons are deterrents for defense.
> > > > > Can't they be used any other way?
> > > > >
> > > > > AFAIR Classical justification of nuke strikes against Hiroshima and
> > > > > Nagasaki has been to avoid deaths during _invasion of Japan_.
> > > > > To put in another way: force _unconditional_ surrender.
> > > > > Making it "defense" is at very least "(wide) open to challenges".
> > > >-----------------
> > > > The US sees Russia's nuclear weapon stockpile as an existential threat.
> > > > Russia, in return, sees Ukraine joining NATO as an existential threat.
> > > > Russia could win mano e mano. So it signals the use of nuclear weapons to preclude
> > > > third party involvement. Is this defensive?
> > > ----------------------
> > > Jennifer Rankin in Brussels, 4 Nov 2021
> > > "The Labour peer recalled an early meeting with Putin,
> > > who became Russian president in 2000. “Putin said:
> > > ‘When are you going to invite us to join NATO?’ And
> > > [Robertson] said: ‘Well, we don’t invite people to join
> > > NATO, they apply to join NATO.’ And he said: ‘Well, we’re
> > > not standing in line with a lot of countries that don’t matter.’”
> > >
> > > The account chimes with what Putin told the late David Frost
> > > in a BBC interview shortly before he was first inaugurated
> > > as Russian president more than 21 years ago. Putin told Frost
> > > he would not rule out joining NATO “if and when Russia’s views
> > > are taken into account as those of an equal partner”.
> > > He told Frost it was hard for him to visualise NATO as an enemy.
> > > “Russia is part of the European culture. And I cannot imagine
> > > my own country in isolation from Europe and what we often call
> > > the civilised world.”"
> > > https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/nov/04/ex-nato-head-says-putin-wanted-to-join-alliance-early-on-in-his-rule
> >-----------------
> > Putin started as an elected leader, but that ship has sailed. He is now a brutal dictator. Too bad.
> -----------
> That's why the Founders created the U.S. the way they did, with
> Separation of Powers, Rule of Law, Civil Society, Free Press,
> Free Elections, Free Markets; to try to "Tame the Beast"!
> You know, the Beast that's always lurking, getting ready
> to rear it's ugly head!

Did the founding fathers really know democracy?
Even today, many Western politicians still fail to differentiate between democratic politics with democratic governance.
> --
> --

On Friday, March 25, 2022 at 12:10:03 PM UTC-7, ltlee1 wrote:
> On Friday, March 25, 2022 at 1:32:00 AM UTC, bmoore wrote:
> > On Thursday, March 24, 2022 at 5:30:26 PM UTC-7, David P. wrote:
> > > ltlee1 wrote:
> > > > A. Filip wrote:
> > > > > stoney wrote:
> > > > > > , ltlee1 wrote:
> > > > > >> Byker wrote:
> > > > > >> > Incubus wrote:
> > > > > >> > >
> > > > > >> > > Russia did far more to put a stop to World War 2 than the USA.
> > > > > >> > And had it not been for Lend-Lease, Oleg and his ilk would be speaking
> > > > > >> > German. And they KNOW it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fcpUdhj-9A8&t=30s
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > Yeah, Oleg, keep that in mind the next time you see footage of Marshal
> > > > > >> > Zhukov being driven around in a U.S.-made Willys jeep:
> > > > > >> > https://share.america.gov/america-sent-equipment-to-soviet-union-in-world-war-ii/
> > > > > >> Which nation is strong enough such that Russia has to ask for help?
> > > > > >> Without doubt, the US is militarily the strongest.
> > > > > >> But then don't forget, Russia has as many nuclear weapons as the US.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Nuclear weapons are deterrents for defense.
> > > > > Can't they be used any other way?
> > > > >
> > > > > AFAIR Classical justification of nuke strikes against Hiroshima and
> > > > > Nagasaki has been to avoid deaths during _invasion of Japan_.
> > > > > To put in another way: force _unconditional_ surrender.
> > > > > Making it "defense" is at very least "(wide) open to challenges".
> > > >-----------------
> > > > The US sees Russia's nuclear weapon stockpile as an existential threat.
> > > > Russia, in return, sees Ukraine joining NATO as an existential threat.
> > > > Russia could win mano e mano. So it signals the use of nuclear weapons to preclude
> > > > third party involvement. Is this defensive?
> > > ----------------------
> > > Jennifer Rankin in Brussels, 4 Nov 2021
> > > "The Labour peer recalled an early meeting with Putin,
> > > who became Russian president in 2000. “Putin said:
> > > ‘When are you going to invite us to join NATO?’ And
> > > [Robertson] said: ‘Well, we don’t invite people to join
> > > NATO, they apply to join NATO.’ And he said: ‘Well, we’re
> > > not standing in line with a lot of countries that don’t matter.’”
> > >
> > > The account chimes with what Putin told the late David Frost
> > > in a BBC interview shortly before he was first inaugurated
> > > as Russian president more than 21 years ago. Putin told Frost
> > > he would not rule out joining NATO “if and when Russia’s views
> > > are taken into account as those of an equal partner”.
> > > He told Frost it was hard for him to visualise NATO as an enemy.
> > > “Russia is part of the European culture. And I cannot imagine
> > > my own country in isolation from Europe and what we often call
> > > the civilised world.”"
> > > https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/nov/04/ex-nato-head-says-putin-wanted-to-join-alliance-early-on-in-his-rule
> > Putin started as an elected leader, but that ship has sailed. He is now a brutal dictator. Too bad.
> Relevant statistical information please.
> For example, how many Russian citizens had been unjustedly silenced with and without fatal forces.

???

Are you actually questioning that Putin is a brutal dictator?

Wow.

On Saturday, March 26, 2022 at 3:28:00 PM UTC, bmoore wrote:
> On Friday, March 25, 2022 at 12:10:03 PM UTC-7, ltlee1 wrote:
> > On Friday, March 25, 2022 at 1:32:00 AM UTC, bmoore wrote:
> > > On Thursday, March 24, 2022 at 5:30:26 PM UTC-7, David P. wrote:
> > > > ltlee1 wrote:
> > > > > A. Filip wrote:
> > > > > > stoney wrote:
> > > > > > > , ltlee1 wrote:
> > > > > > >> Byker wrote:
> > > > > > >> > Incubus wrote:
> > > > > > >> > >
> > > > > > >> > > Russia did far more to put a stop to World War 2 than the USA.
> > > > > > >> > And had it not been for Lend-Lease, Oleg and his ilk would be speaking
> > > > > > >> > German. And they KNOW it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fcpUdhj-9A8&t=30s
> > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > >> > Yeah, Oleg, keep that in mind the next time you see footage of Marshal
> > > > > > >> > Zhukov being driven around in a U.S.-made Willys jeep:
> > > > > > >> > https://share.america.gov/america-sent-equipment-to-soviet-union-in-world-war-ii/
> > > > > > >> Which nation is strong enough such that Russia has to ask for help?
> > > > > > >> Without doubt, the US is militarily the strongest.
> > > > > > >> But then don't forget, Russia has as many nuclear weapons as the US.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Nuclear weapons are deterrents for defense.
> > > > > > Can't they be used any other way?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > AFAIR Classical justification of nuke strikes against Hiroshima and
> > > > > > Nagasaki has been to avoid deaths during _invasion of Japan_.
> > > > > > To put in another way: force _unconditional_ surrender.
> > > > > > Making it "defense" is at very least "(wide) open to challenges".
> > > > >-----------------
> > > > > The US sees Russia's nuclear weapon stockpile as an existential threat.
> > > > > Russia, in return, sees Ukraine joining NATO as an existential threat.
> > > > > Russia could win mano e mano. So it signals the use of nuclear weapons to preclude
> > > > > third party involvement. Is this defensive?
> > > > ----------------------
> > > > Jennifer Rankin in Brussels, 4 Nov 2021
> > > > "The Labour peer recalled an early meeting with Putin,
> > > > who became Russian president in 2000. “Putin said:
> > > > ‘When are you going to invite us to join NATO?’ And
> > > > [Robertson] said: ‘Well, we don’t invite people to join
> > > > NATO, they apply to join NATO.’ And he said: ‘Well, we’re
> > > > not standing in line with a lot of countries that don’t matter.’”
> > > >
> > > > The account chimes with what Putin told the late David Frost
> > > > in a BBC interview shortly before he was first inaugurated
> > > > as Russian president more than 21 years ago. Putin told Frost
> > > > he would not rule out joining NATO “if and when Russia’s views
> > > > are taken into account as those of an equal partner”.
> > > > He told Frost it was hard for him to visualise NATO as an enemy.
> > > > “Russia is part of the European culture. And I cannot imagine
> > > > my own country in isolation from Europe and what we often call
> > > > the civilised world.”"
> > > > https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/nov/04/ex-nato-head-says-putin-wanted-to-join-alliance-early-on-in-his-rule
> > > Putin started as an elected leader, but that ship has sailed. He is now a brutal dictator. Too bad.
> > Relevant statistical information please.
> > For example, how many Russian citizens had been unjustedly silenced with and without fatal forces.
> ???
>
> Are you actually questioning that Putin is a brutal dictator?
>
> Wow.

Again, it is not about me.
Rather, you made and/or believe a claim. I am asking for evidence.
If you think that a certain God has divined the claimed and no evidence is needed, please inform.

On Saturday, March 26, 2022 at 4:36:23 PM UTC, David P. wrote:
> ltlee1 wrote:
> > , David P. wrote:
> > > , bmoore wrote:
> > > > David P. wrote:
> > > > > ltlee1 wrote:
> > > > > > A. Filip wrote:
> > > > > > > stoney wrote:
> > > > > > > > , ltlee1 wrote:
> > > > > > > >> Byker wrote:
> > > > > > > >> > Incubus wrote:
> > > > > > > >> > >
> > > > > > > >> > > Russia did far more to put a stop to World War 2 than the USA.
> > > > > > > >> > And had it not been for Lend-Lease, Oleg and his ilk would be speaking
> > > > > > > >> > German. And they KNOW it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fcpUdhj-9A8&t=30s
> > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > >> > Yeah, Oleg, keep that in mind the next time you see footage of Marshal
> > > > > > > >> > Zhukov being driven around in a U.S.-made Willys jeep:
> > > > > > > >> > https://share.america.gov/america-sent-equipment-to-soviet-union-in-world-war-ii/
> > > > > > > >> Which nation is strong enough such that Russia has to ask for help?
> > > > > > > >> Without doubt, the US is militarily the strongest.
> > > > > > > >> But then don't forget, Russia has as many nuclear weapons as the US.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Nuclear weapons are deterrents for defense.
> > > > > > > Can't they be used any other way?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > AFAIR Classical justification of nuke strikes against Hiroshima and
> > > > > > > Nagasaki has been to avoid deaths during _invasion of Japan_.
> > > > > > > To put in another way: force _unconditional_ surrender.
> > > > > > > Making it "defense" is at very least "(wide) open to challenges".
> > > > > >-----------------
> > > > > > The US sees Russia's nuclear weapon stockpile as an existential threat.
> > > > > > Russia, in return, sees Ukraine joining NATO as an existential threat.
> > > > > > Russia could win mano e mano. So it signals the use of nuclear weapons to preclude
> > > > > > third party involvement. Is this defensive?
> > > > > ----------------------
> > > > > Jennifer Rankin in Brussels, 4 Nov 2021
> > > > > "The Labour peer recalled an early meeting with Putin,
> > > > > who became Russian president in 2000. “Putin said:
> > > > > ‘When are you going to invite us to join NATO?’ And
> > > > > [Robertson] said: ‘Well, we don’t invite people to join
> > > > > NATO, they apply to join NATO.’ And he said: ‘Well, we’re
> > > > > not standing in line with a lot of countries that don’t matter.’”
> > > > >
> > > > > The account chimes with what Putin told the late David Frost
> > > > > in a BBC interview shortly before he was first inaugurated
> > > > > as Russian president more than 21 years ago. Putin told Frost
> > > > > he would not rule out joining NATO “if and when Russia’s views
> > > > > are taken into account as those of an equal partner”.
> > > > > He told Frost it was hard for him to visualise NATO as an enemy.
> > > > > “Russia is part of the European culture. And I cannot imagine
> > > > > my own country in isolation from Europe and what we often call
> > > > > the civilised world.”"
> > > > > https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/nov/04/ex-nato-head-says-putin-wanted-to-join-alliance-early-on-in-his-rule
> > > >-----------------
> > > > Putin started as an elected leader, but that ship has sailed. He is now a brutal dictator. Too bad.
> > > -----------
> > > That's why the Founders created the U.S. the way they did, with
> > > Separation of Powers, Rule of Law, Civil Society, Free Press,
> > > Free Elections, Free Markets; to try to "Tame the Beast"!
> > > You know, the Beast that's always lurking, getting ready
> > > to rear it's ugly head!
> >------------------
> > Did the founding fathers really know democracy?
> > Even today, many Western politicians still fail to differentiate between democratic politics with democratic governance.
> -------------------
> There's no excuse! Russia & the others should have joined the club!
> But they couldn't humble themselves.....that's the problem!
> --
> --
Join what club? When was the US a real democracy?

On Sunday, March 27, 2022 at 6:20:49 AM UTC, David P. wrote:
> ltlee1 wrote:
> > David P. wrote:
> > > ltlee1 wrote: stern politicians still fail to differentiate between democratic politics with democratic governance.
> > > -------------------
> > > There's no excuse! Russia & the others should have joined the club!
> > > But they couldn't humble themselves.....that's the problem!
> > > -- ------------
> > Join what club?
> -------------------
> The European Union, of course!
> --
> --

Why do you think humbling themselves is the issue?
EU is an exclusive club with its own rules and associated costs and benefits .
As a matter of fact, not all European nations have joined the EU. Members such as
Greece also complained vehemently against EU bureaucrats which do not necessarily
consider the interest of member states. Important member such as the UK also chose
to leave.

Anyway, Russia's avowed grievence is mostly against the NATO's eastward expansion.

"David P." <imbibe@mindspring.com> wrote:
> ltlee1 wrote:
>> David P. wrote:
>> > ltlee1 wrote: stern politicians still fail to differentiate between democratic politics with democratic governance.
>> > -------------------
>> > There's no excuse! Russia & the others should have joined the club!
>> > But they couldn't humble themselves.....that's the problem!
>> > -- ------------
>> Join what club?
> -------------------
> The European Union, of course!

EU voting system have not been twisted (yet) to accommodate
"Russian option". I do believe that EU is fully capable to
deliver such (underhanded) twist :-)

The countries who cast the votes decide nothing. The people who decided
how to count the votes decide everything. [Stalin paraphrased]

--
A. Filip : Big (Tech) Brother is watching you.
| Think lucky. If you fall in a pond, check your pockets for fish.
| (Darrell Royal)

On Sunday, March 27, 2022 at 11:47:39 AM UTC, A. Filip wrote:
> "David P." <imb...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> > ltlee1 wrote:
> >> David P. wrote:
> >> > ltlee1 wrote: stern politicians still fail to differentiate between democratic politics with democratic governance.
> >> > -------------------
> >> > There's no excuse! Russia & the others should have joined the club!
> >> > But they couldn't humble themselves.....that's the problem!
> >> > -- ------------
> >> Join what club?
> > -------------------
> > The European Union, of course!
> EU voting system have not been twisted (yet) to accommodate
> "Russian option". I do believe that EU is fully capable to
> deliver such (underhanded) twist :-)
>
> The countries who cast the votes decide nothing. The people who decided
> how to count the votes decide everything. [Stalin paraphrased]

It is voter counter agency.
Trump certainly believed that.
Michael Pence did not. According to him, the US Constitution has stipulated (electoral)
vote counter to behave like a robot.
> --
> A. Filip : Big (Tech) Brother is watching you.
> | Think lucky. If you fall in a pond, check your pockets for fish.
> | (Darrell Royal)

On Monday, March 28, 2022 at 3:55:34 AM UTC, David P. wrote:
> ltlee1 wrote:
> > David P. wrote:
> > > ltlee1 wrote:
> > > > David P. wrote:
> > > > > ltlee1 wrote: stern politicians still fail to differentiate between democratic politics with democratic governance.
> > > > > -------------------
> > > > > There's no excuse! Russia & the others should have joined the club!
> > > > > But they couldn't humble themselves.....that's the problem!
> > > > > -- ------------
> > > > Join what club?
> > > -------------------
> > > The European Union, of course!
> > > --
> > > --
> > Why do you think humbling themselves is the issue?
> -------------
> Humility has ALWAYS been the issue for ALL politicians!
> --------------
> > EU is an exclusive club with its own rules and associated costs and benefits .
> > As a matter of fact, not all European nations have joined the EU. Members such as
> > Greece also complained vehemently against EU bureaucrats which do not necessarily
> > consider the interest of member states. Important member such as the UK also chose
> > to leave.
> >
> > Anyway, Russia's avowed grievence is mostly against the NATO's eastward expansion.
> ---------------
> If Russia, Ukraine & Belarus had joined the EU, that would have been a non-issue!

IF NATO does not try to keep Russia out, Ukraine joining NATO would also be a non-issue.
For the US, it is either the end of American dream or the end of history. History will not end.
So American dream would have to.
> --
> --

On Saturday, March 26, 2022 at 10:38:30 AM UTC-7, ltlee1 wrote:
> On Saturday, March 26, 2022 at 3:28:00 PM UTC, bmoore wrote:
> > On Friday, March 25, 2022 at 12:10:03 PM UTC-7, ltlee1 wrote:
> > > On Friday, March 25, 2022 at 1:32:00 AM UTC, bmoore wrote:
> > > > On Thursday, March 24, 2022 at 5:30:26 PM UTC-7, David P. wrote:
> > > > > ltlee1 wrote:
> > > > > > A. Filip wrote:
> > > > > > > stoney wrote:
> > > > > > > > , ltlee1 wrote:
> > > > > > > >> Byker wrote:
> > > > > > > >> > Incubus wrote:
> > > > > > > >> > >
> > > > > > > >> > > Russia did far more to put a stop to World War 2 than the USA.
> > > > > > > >> > And had it not been for Lend-Lease, Oleg and his ilk would be speaking
> > > > > > > >> > German. And they KNOW it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fcpUdhj-9A8&t=30s
> > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > >> > Yeah, Oleg, keep that in mind the next time you see footage of Marshal
> > > > > > > >> > Zhukov being driven around in a U.S.-made Willys jeep:
> > > > > > > >> > https://share.america.gov/america-sent-equipment-to-soviet-union-in-world-war-ii/
> > > > > > > >> Which nation is strong enough such that Russia has to ask for help?
> > > > > > > >> Without doubt, the US is militarily the strongest.
> > > > > > > >> But then don't forget, Russia has as many nuclear weapons as the US.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Nuclear weapons are deterrents for defense.
> > > > > > > Can't they be used any other way?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > AFAIR Classical justification of nuke strikes against Hiroshima and
> > > > > > > Nagasaki has been to avoid deaths during _invasion of Japan_.
> > > > > > > To put in another way: force _unconditional_ surrender.
> > > > > > > Making it "defense" is at very least "(wide) open to challenges".
> > > > > >-----------------
> > > > > > The US sees Russia's nuclear weapon stockpile as an existential threat.
> > > > > > Russia, in return, sees Ukraine joining NATO as an existential threat.
> > > > > > Russia could win mano e mano. So it signals the use of nuclear weapons to preclude
> > > > > > third party involvement. Is this defensive?
> > > > > ----------------------
> > > > > Jennifer Rankin in Brussels, 4 Nov 2021
> > > > > "The Labour peer recalled an early meeting with Putin,
> > > > > who became Russian president in 2000. “Putin said:
> > > > > ‘When are you going to invite us to join NATO?’ And
> > > > > [Robertson] said: ‘Well, we don’t invite people to join
> > > > > NATO, they apply to join NATO.’ And he said: ‘Well, we’re
> > > > > not standing in line with a lot of countries that don’t matter.’”
> > > > >
> > > > > The account chimes with what Putin told the late David Frost
> > > > > in a BBC interview shortly before he was first inaugurated
> > > > > as Russian president more than 21 years ago. Putin told Frost
> > > > > he would not rule out joining NATO “if and when Russia’s views
> > > > > are taken into account as those of an equal partner”.
> > > > > He told Frost it was hard for him to visualise NATO as an enemy.
> > > > > “Russia is part of the European culture. And I cannot imagine
> > > > > my own country in isolation from Europe and what we often call
> > > > > the civilised world.”"
> > > > > https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/nov/04/ex-nato-head-says-putin-wanted-to-join-alliance-early-on-in-his-rule
> > > > Putin started as an elected leader, but that ship has sailed. He is now a brutal dictator. Too bad.
> > > Relevant statistical information please.
> > > For example, how many Russian citizens had been unjustedly silenced with and without fatal forces.
> > ???
> >
> > Are you actually questioning that Putin is a brutal dictator?
> >
> > Wow.
> Again, it is not about me.
> Rather, you made and/or believe a claim. I am asking for evidence.
> If you think that a certain God has divined the claimed and no evidence is needed, please inform.

Again, wow, just wow.

On Monday, March 28, 2022 at 5:21:55 AM UTC-7, ltlee1 wrote:
> On Monday, March 28, 2022 at 3:55:34 AM UTC, David P. wrote:
> > ltlee1 wrote:
> > > David P. wrote:
> > > > ltlee1 wrote:
> > > > > David P. wrote:
> > > > > > ltlee1 wrote: stern politicians still fail to differentiate between democratic politics with democratic governance.
> > > > > > -------------------
> > > > > > There's no excuse! Russia & the others should have joined the club!
> > > > > > But they couldn't humble themselves.....that's the problem!
> > > > > > -- ------------
> > > > > Join what club?
> > > > -------------------
> > > > The European Union, of course!
> > > > --
> > > > --
> > > Why do you think humbling themselves is the issue?
> > -------------
> > Humility has ALWAYS been the issue for ALL politicians!
> > --------------
> > > EU is an exclusive club with its own rules and associated costs and benefits .
> > > As a matter of fact, not all European nations have joined the EU. Members such as
> > > Greece also complained vehemently against EU bureaucrats which do not necessarily
> > > consider the interest of member states. Important member such as the UK also chose
> > > to leave.
> > >
> > > Anyway, Russia's avowed grievence is mostly against the NATO's eastward expansion.
> > ---------------
> > If Russia, Ukraine & Belarus had joined the EU, that would have been a non-issue!
> IF NATO does not try to keep Russia out, Ukraine joining NATO would also be a non-issue.
> For the US, it is either the end of American dream or the end of history. History will not end.
> So American dream would have to.

Or maybe you are dreaming.