I was at Highland today taking a serious look at the MFT/3. I must be
missing something (so was the sales guy and the Festool Owner's group)
but that think is about as accurate as a dull axe. The rail hinge is
just stamped steel, as is the pin it sits on. Before resting on the
pin there is about 1/4" play in the rail. Even after it's sitting on
the pin, there is about 1/16" play. How the hell can this thing be
used for woodworking. Framing, maybe.

Stamped steel hinges? It's worse than just a hinge. The "hinge" is
two pins with about 1-1/2" steel arms to hold the rail. Moving the
rail flexes these arms. It's a terrible design.

FOG members say something like "Yeah, it's a terrible design and has
never been addressed but at least they make it more expensive every
year.".

Leon?

On Saturday, November 5, 2022 at 7:56:06 PM UTC-5, k...@notreal.com wrote:
> I was at Highland today taking a serious look at the MFT/3. I must be
> missing something (so was the sales guy and the Festool Owner's group)
> but that think is about as accurate as a dull axe. The rail hinge is
> just stamped steel, as is the pin it sits on. Before resting on the
> pin there is about 1/4" play in the rail. Even after it's sitting on
> the pin, there is about 1/16" play. How the hell can this thing be
> used for woodworking. Framing, maybe.
>
> Stamped steel hinges? It's worse than just a hinge. The "hinge" is
> two pins with about 1-1/2" steel arms to hold the rail. Moving the
> rail flexes these arms. It's a terrible design.
>
> FOG members say something like "Yeah, it's a terrible design and has
> never been addressed but at least they make it more expensive every
> year.".
>
> Leon?

No comment from me. I have a vague idea of what the MFT/3 is. A MDF table top with some size of mm holes drilled in it in a grid pattern. And you can use the newer Festool rails and track saw and maybe router on top of it. And expensive posts and other things fit into the mm holes. I never understood the appeal of it. Why not just use your table saw or miter saw to cut the wood? Or if using the track saw to cut the wood, just toss the wood onto a Styrofoam panel, lay the guide on top, and cut with the track saw.

Now, I will admit to creating my own MFT style table. I glued and screwed a set of 2x4s together to make a frame. Then have a piece of particleboard to sit on top. And some pipe sockets and pipes to make legs on the bottom.. I can lay pieces of wood on top and straight line rip the edges with the track saw. Then feed the pieces into my table saw to rip to width. Its kind of an elevated Styrofoam panel so I don't have to crawl around on the floor.

On Sun, 6 Nov 2022 00:46:36 -0700 (PDT), "russellseaton1@yahoo.com"
<ritzannaseaton@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Saturday, November 5, 2022 at 7:56:06 PM UTC-5, k...@notreal.com wrote:
>> I was at Highland today taking a serious look at the MFT/3. I must be
>> missing something (so was the sales guy and the Festool Owner's group)
>> but that think is about as accurate as a dull axe. The rail hinge is
>> just stamped steel, as is the pin it sits on. Before resting on the
>> pin there is about 1/4" play in the rail. Even after it's sitting on
>> the pin, there is about 1/16" play. How the hell can this thing be
>> used for woodworking. Framing, maybe.
>>
>> Stamped steel hinges? It's worse than just a hinge. The "hinge" is
>> two pins with about 1-1/2" steel arms to hold the rail. Moving the
>> rail flexes these arms. It's a terrible design.
>>
>> FOG members say something like "Yeah, it's a terrible design and has
>> never been addressed but at least they make it more expensive every
>> year.".
>>
>> Leon?
>
>
>No comment from me. I have a vague idea of what the MFT/3 is. A MDF table top with some size of mm holes drilled in it in a grid pattern. And you can use the newer Festool rails and track saw and maybe router on top of it. And expensive posts and other things fit into the mm holes. I never understood the appeal of it. Why not just use your table saw or miter saw to cut the wood? Or if using the track saw to cut the wood, just toss the wood onto a Styrofoam panel, lay the guide on top, and cut with the track saw.

I wasn't much interested until the Festool travlin' road show. They
were demonstrating some other tools, using the MFT. The setup is very
fast and they (of course) were making it look really good. I went
back Saturday to look closer without a bunch of Festool employees
standing around me. I was disappointed but could still be talked into
it by someone who uses one every day. There are just some things
about the rail mechanism (the MFT's bottom line) that didn't sit well.
It could have been so much more robust.

>Now, I will admit to creating my own MFT style table. I glued and screwed a set of 2x4s together to make a frame. Then have a piece of particleboard to sit on top. And some pipe sockets and pipes to make legs on the bottom. I can lay pieces of wood on top and straight line rip the edges with the track saw. Then feed the pieces into my table saw to rip to width. Its kind of an elevated Styrofoam panel so I don't have to crawl around on the floor.

I have a table with a sheet of MDF on a solid-core door, with edge
banding to hold the MDF from moving (it's just sitting there so can be
replaced easily). It's great for "ripping" panels down to size but not
so great at "cross-cutting".

I plan on drilling dog holes in it but haven't decided on the US 3/4"
or European (Festool) 20mm holes. Since the table is so thick (2",
IIRC) passing the clamps from the bottom isn't going to work but
surface clamps will, which is always a problem.

Since I always work alone and really can't moose full sheets around
like I once did (particularly now) so the table saw isn't very
user-friendly. I'd like to use it just for ripping and small parts.
The MFT is set up to make short work of "cross-cutting" panels. If
it were a little better, it could put a miter saw out to pasture.

On Sunday, November 6, 2022 at 6:34:06 PM UTC-6, k...@notreal.com wrote:
> On Sun, 6 Nov 2022 00:46:36 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >On Saturday, November 5, 2022 at 7:56:06 PM UTC-5, k...@notreal.com wrote:
> >> I was at Highland today taking a serious look at the MFT/3. I must be
> >> missing something (so was the sales guy and the Festool Owner's group)
> >> but that think is about as accurate as a dull axe. The rail hinge is
> >> just stamped steel, as is the pin it sits on. Before resting on the
> >> pin there is about 1/4" play in the rail. Even after it's sitting on
> >> the pin, there is about 1/16" play. How the hell can this thing be
> >> used for woodworking. Framing, maybe.
> >>
> >> Stamped steel hinges? It's worse than just a hinge. The "hinge" is
> >> two pins with about 1-1/2" steel arms to hold the rail. Moving the
> >> rail flexes these arms. It's a terrible design.
> >>
> >> FOG members say something like "Yeah, it's a terrible design and has
> >> never been addressed but at least they make it more expensive every
> >> year.".
> >>
> >> Leon?
> >
> >
> >No comment from me. I have a vague idea of what the MFT/3 is. A MDF table top with some size of mm holes drilled in it in a grid pattern. And you can use the newer Festool rails and track saw and maybe router on top of it. And expensive posts and other things fit into the mm holes. I never understood the appeal of it. Why not just use your table saw or miter saw to cut the wood? Or if using the track saw to cut the wood, just toss the wood onto a Styrofoam panel, lay the guide on top, and cut with the track saw.
> I wasn't much interested until the Festool travlin' road show. They
> were demonstrating some other tools, using the MFT. The setup is very
> fast and they (of course) were making it look really good. I went
> back Saturday to look closer without a bunch of Festool employees
> standing around me. I was disappointed but could still be talked into
> it by someone who uses one every day. There are just some things
> about the rail mechanism (the MFT's bottom line) that didn't sit well.
> It could have been so much more robust.
> >Now, I will admit to creating my own MFT style table. I glued and screwed a set of 2x4s together to make a frame. Then have a piece of particleboard to sit on top. And some pipe sockets and pipes to make legs on the bottom.. I can lay pieces of wood on top and straight line rip the edges with the track saw. Then feed the pieces into my table saw to rip to width. Its kind of an elevated Styrofoam panel so I don't have to crawl around on the floor.
> I have a table with a sheet of MDF on a solid-core door, with edge
> banding to hold the MDF from moving (it's just sitting there so can be
> replaced easily). It's great for "ripping" panels down to size but not
> so great at "cross-cutting".
>
> I plan on drilling dog holes in it but haven't decided on the US 3/4"
> or European (Festool) 20mm holes. Since the table is so thick (2",
> IIRC) passing the clamps from the bottom isn't going to work but
> surface clamps will, which is always a problem.
>
> Since I always work alone and really can't moose full sheets around
> like I once did (particularly now) so the table saw isn't very
> user-friendly. I'd like to use it just for ripping and small parts.
> The MFT is set up to make short work of "cross-cutting" panels. If
> it were a little better, it could put a miter saw out to pasture.

Again, I have no direct experience with the MFT table. Just seen pictures of it and read lots of comments from devotees about how wonderous it is. But I can't figure out why its so wonderful. I already own a SCMS that crosscuts 12 inches. I guess I could put in stop blocks on one side and flip the piece over so it would then crosscut 24 inches. Maybe that would work OK. SCMS cost $500 lets say. I also own a table saw. Its old now. Delta Contractors saw. I can crosscut and rip with it pretty darn good. Now, I agree working with full plywood sheets is cumbersome. Best to use the track saw and a Styrofoam panel first to cut the plywood down to size. Or to straight line rip an edge on long boards. I probably have at least $1000 over the decades invested into the table saw. Track saw and rails are of course expensive too. But you have to have a track saw and rails to make the MFT work. So you have to buy a track saw no matter what. MFT by itself is $775. Comes with a 42" rail. It can cut 42" by 27". So you still need to buy a new longer rail to even crosscut a 4' x 8' sheet of plywood on the floor before you can even put it on the MFT. And a long rail to rip the plywood on its 8 foot side. And in addition to the $775 base cost, you still "need" to buy all the extra doo-dads for several hundreds of extra dollars.. So the MFT table is over $1000 before its in its wonderous state.

As I said, I already own a SCMS. Probably don't need that, but I already bought it. So not going to get rid of it. And I have a table saw that does everything the MFT does. For less money. And I own a track saw and rails.. Which you have to buy to use the MFT, so that is a wash. What would a MFT do that I cannot already do now? And I can probably do everything better now too. And faster.

Now, I can understand the appeal of the MFT in certain situations. You are a traveling carpenter living in your van. And all of your cutting is done with the MFT. And you pull it out of the van and set it up on the grass to do all your work. Might make sense in that situation. Or maybe you are moving into the retirement home and you only have a 10' by 10' room as your shop. So you have to sell all your other tools first before moving in. And now you need something tiny to use in your new tiny shop. And you can carry the lightweight Styrofoam panel out onto the retirement home's center lawn when you need to cut a piece of plywood down to size. Before it can even fit on the MFT table inside your tiny shop.

On Mon, 7 Nov 2022 19:22:26 -0800 (PST), "russellseaton1@yahoo.com"
<ritzannaseaton@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Sunday, November 6, 2022 at 6:34:06 PM UTC-6, k...@notreal.com wrote:
>> On Sun, 6 Nov 2022 00:46:36 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >On Saturday, November 5, 2022 at 7:56:06 PM UTC-5, k...@notreal.com wrote:
>> >> I was at Highland today taking a serious look at the MFT/3. I must be
>> >> missing something (so was the sales guy and the Festool Owner's group)
>> >> but that think is about as accurate as a dull axe. The rail hinge is
>> >> just stamped steel, as is the pin it sits on. Before resting on the
>> >> pin there is about 1/4" play in the rail. Even after it's sitting on
>> >> the pin, there is about 1/16" play. How the hell can this thing be
>> >> used for woodworking. Framing, maybe.
>> >>
>> >> Stamped steel hinges? It's worse than just a hinge. The "hinge" is
>> >> two pins with about 1-1/2" steel arms to hold the rail. Moving the
>> >> rail flexes these arms. It's a terrible design.
>> >>
>> >> FOG members say something like "Yeah, it's a terrible design and has
>> >> never been addressed but at least they make it more expensive every
>> >> year.".
>> >>
>> >> Leon?
>> >
>> >
>> >No comment from me. I have a vague idea of what the MFT/3 is. A MDF table top with some size of mm holes drilled in it in a grid pattern. And you can use the newer Festool rails and track saw and maybe router on top of it. And expensive posts and other things fit into the mm holes. I never understood the appeal of it. Why not just use your table saw or miter saw to cut the wood? Or if using the track saw to cut the wood, just toss the wood onto a Styrofoam panel, lay the guide on top, and cut with the track saw.
>> I wasn't much interested until the Festool travlin' road show. They
>> were demonstrating some other tools, using the MFT. The setup is very
>> fast and they (of course) were making it look really good. I went
>> back Saturday to look closer without a bunch of Festool employees
>> standing around me. I was disappointed but could still be talked into
>> it by someone who uses one every day. There are just some things
>> about the rail mechanism (the MFT's bottom line) that didn't sit well.
>> It could have been so much more robust.
>> >Now, I will admit to creating my own MFT style table. I glued and screwed a set of 2x4s together to make a frame. Then have a piece of particleboard to sit on top. And some pipe sockets and pipes to make legs on the bottom. I can lay pieces of wood on top and straight line rip the edges with the track saw. Then feed the pieces into my table saw to rip to width. Its kind of an elevated Styrofoam panel so I don't have to crawl around on the floor.
>> I have a table with a sheet of MDF on a solid-core door, with edge
>> banding to hold the MDF from moving (it's just sitting there so can be
>> replaced easily). It's great for "ripping" panels down to size but not
>> so great at "cross-cutting".
>>
>> I plan on drilling dog holes in it but haven't decided on the US 3/4"
>> or European (Festool) 20mm holes. Since the table is so thick (2",
>> IIRC) passing the clamps from the bottom isn't going to work but
>> surface clamps will, which is always a problem.
>>
>> Since I always work alone and really can't moose full sheets around
>> like I once did (particularly now) so the table saw isn't very
>> user-friendly. I'd like to use it just for ripping and small parts.
>> The MFT is set up to make short work of "cross-cutting" panels. If
>> it were a little better, it could put a miter saw out to pasture.
>
>Again, I have no direct experience with the MFT table. Just seen pictures of it and read lots of comments from devotees about how wonderous it is. But I can't figure out why its so wonderful. I already own a SCMS that crosscuts 12 inches. I guess I could put in stop blocks on one side and flip the piece over so it would then crosscut 24 inches. Maybe that would work OK. SCMS cost $500 lets say. I also own a table saw. Its old now. Delta Contractors saw. I can crosscut and rip with it pretty darn good. Now, I agree working with full plywood sheets is cumbersome. Best to use the track saw and a Styrofoam panel first to cut the plywood down to size. Or to straight line rip an edge on long boards. I probably have at least $1000 over the decades invested into the table saw. Track saw and rails are of course expensive too. But you have to have a track saw and rails to make the MFT work. So you have to buy a track saw no matter what. MFT by itself is $775. Comes with a
>42" rail. It can cut 42" by 27". So you still need to buy a new longer rail to even crosscut a 4' x 8' sheet of plywood on the floor before you can even put it on the MFT. And a long rail to rip the plywood on its 8 foot side. And in addition to the $775 base cost, you still "need" to buy all the extra doo-dads for several hundreds of extra dollars. So the MFT table is over $1000 before its in its wonderous state.

You can buy a second and cut 8' pieces. ;-)

>As I said, I already own a SCMS. Probably don't need that, but I already bought it. So not going to get rid of it. And I have a table saw that does everything the MFT does. For less money. And I own a track saw and rails. Which you have to buy to use the MFT, so that is a wash. What would a MFT do that I cannot already do now? And I can probably do everything better now too. And faster.

There are certain situations where neither the table saw or the track
saw seem to be the right tool. The piece is big enough that I really
don't want to use the table saw and setting the track up is a PITA for
one cut. I've been thinking about getting a short track and just do
that. I have enough track to build a railroad but nothing shorter
than 55". I could cut one down on a track saw. ;-) I just might.

>Now, I can understand the appeal of the MFT in certain situations. You are a traveling carpenter living in your van. And all of your cutting is done with the MFT. And you pull it out of the van and set it up on the grass to do all your work. Might make sense in that situation. Or maybe you are moving into the retirement home and you only have a 10' by 10' room as your shop. So you have to sell all your other tools first before moving in. And now you need something tiny to use in your new tiny shop. And you can carry the lightweight Styrofoam panel out onto the retirement home's center lawn when you need to cut a piece of plywood down to size. Before it can even fit on the MFT table inside your tiny shop.

No question they're great for installers. At 42#, hauling one around
would be easy. I didn't like the wobbly legs, either but this would
be an acceptable tradeoff for a mobile workstation. One of the
attendees at the Festool show said that he put a shelf across the
bottom rungs and it's fine. That defeats its purpose as a mobile saw
but solves the wobblies, apparently. They have a router MFT table too.
I *really* didn't like how wobbly it was. I know everything is
referenced to the top and movement doesn't matter to the cut but I
want to work on a solid bench.

Leon has and MFT for his shop and loves it. I was hoping he was still
around to answer questions.

On Tuesday, November 8, 2022 at 1:21:54 PM UTC-6, k...@notreal.com wrote:
> On Mon, 7 Nov 2022 19:22:26 -0800 (PST), "russell...@yahoo.com"
> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >On Sunday, November 6, 2022 at 6:34:06 PM UTC-6, k...@notreal.com wrote:
> >> On Sun, 6 Nov 2022 00:46:36 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
> >> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> >On Saturday, November 5, 2022 at 7:56:06 PM UTC-5, k...@notreal.com wrote:
> >> >> I was at Highland today taking a serious look at the MFT/3. I must be
> >> >> missing something (so was the sales guy and the Festool Owner's group)
> >> >> but that think is about as accurate as a dull axe. The rail hinge is
> >> >> just stamped steel, as is the pin it sits on. Before resting on the
> >> >> pin there is about 1/4" play in the rail. Even after it's sitting on
> >> >> the pin, there is about 1/16" play. How the hell can this thing be
> >> >> used for woodworking. Framing, maybe.
> >> >>
> >> >> Stamped steel hinges? It's worse than just a hinge. The "hinge" is
> >> >> two pins with about 1-1/2" steel arms to hold the rail. Moving the
> >> >> rail flexes these arms. It's a terrible design.
> >> >>
> >> >> FOG members say something like "Yeah, it's a terrible design and has
> >> >> never been addressed but at least they make it more expensive every
> >> >> year.".
> >> >>
> >> >> Leon?
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >No comment from me. I have a vague idea of what the MFT/3 is. A MDF table top with some size of mm holes drilled in it in a grid pattern. And you can use the newer Festool rails and track saw and maybe router on top of it. And expensive posts and other things fit into the mm holes. I never understood the appeal of it. Why not just use your table saw or miter saw to cut the wood? Or if using the track saw to cut the wood, just toss the wood onto a Styrofoam panel, lay the guide on top, and cut with the track saw.
> >> I wasn't much interested until the Festool travlin' road show. They
> >> were demonstrating some other tools, using the MFT. The setup is very
> >> fast and they (of course) were making it look really good. I went
> >> back Saturday to look closer without a bunch of Festool employees
> >> standing around me. I was disappointed but could still be talked into
> >> it by someone who uses one every day. There are just some things
> >> about the rail mechanism (the MFT's bottom line) that didn't sit well.
> >> It could have been so much more robust.
> >> >Now, I will admit to creating my own MFT style table. I glued and screwed a set of 2x4s together to make a frame. Then have a piece of particleboard to sit on top. And some pipe sockets and pipes to make legs on the bottom. I can lay pieces of wood on top and straight line rip the edges with the track saw. Then feed the pieces into my table saw to rip to width. Its kind of an elevated Styrofoam panel so I don't have to crawl around on the floor.
> >> I have a table with a sheet of MDF on a solid-core door, with edge
> >> banding to hold the MDF from moving (it's just sitting there so can be
> >> replaced easily). It's great for "ripping" panels down to size but not
> >> so great at "cross-cutting".
> >>
> >> I plan on drilling dog holes in it but haven't decided on the US 3/4"
> >> or European (Festool) 20mm holes. Since the table is so thick (2",
> >> IIRC) passing the clamps from the bottom isn't going to work but
> >> surface clamps will, which is always a problem.
> >>
> >> Since I always work alone and really can't moose full sheets around
> >> like I once did (particularly now) so the table saw isn't very
> >> user-friendly. I'd like to use it just for ripping and small parts.
> >> The MFT is set up to make short work of "cross-cutting" panels. If
> >> it were a little better, it could put a miter saw out to pasture.
> >
> >Again, I have no direct experience with the MFT table. Just seen pictures of it and read lots of comments from devotees about how wonderous it is. But I can't figure out why its so wonderful. I already own a SCMS that crosscuts 12 inches. I guess I could put in stop blocks on one side and flip the piece over so it would then crosscut 24 inches. Maybe that would work OK. SCMS cost $500 lets say. I also own a table saw. Its old now. Delta Contractors saw. I can crosscut and rip with it pretty darn good. Now, I agree working with full plywood sheets is cumbersome. Best to use the track saw and a Styrofoam panel first to cut the plywood down to size. Or to straight line rip an edge on long boards. I probably have at least $1000 over the decades invested into the table saw. Track saw and rails are of course expensive too. But you have to have a track saw and rails to make the MFT work. So you have to buy a track saw no matter what. MFT by itself is $775. Comes with a
> >42" rail. It can cut 42" by 27". So you still need to buy a new longer rail to even crosscut a 4' x 8' sheet of plywood on the floor before you can even put it on the MFT. And a long rail to rip the plywood on its 8 foot side. And in addition to the $775 base cost, you still "need" to buy all the extra doo-dads for several hundreds of extra dollars. So the MFT table is over $1000 before its in its wonderous state.
> You can buy a second and cut 8' pieces. ;-)
> >As I said, I already own a SCMS. Probably don't need that, but I already bought it. So not going to get rid of it. And I have a table saw that does everything the MFT does. For less money. And I own a track saw and rails. Which you have to buy to use the MFT, so that is a wash. What would a MFT do that I cannot already do now? And I can probably do everything better now too. And faster.
> There are certain situations where neither the table saw or the track
> saw seem to be the right tool. The piece is big enough that I really
> don't want to use the table saw and setting the track up is a PITA for
> one cut. I've been thinking about getting a short track and just do
> that. I have enough track to build a railroad but nothing shorter
> than 55". I could cut one down on a track saw. ;-) I just might.
> >Now, I can understand the appeal of the MFT in certain situations. You are a traveling carpenter living in your van. And all of your cutting is done with the MFT. And you pull it out of the van and set it up on the grass to do all your work. Might make sense in that situation. Or maybe you are moving into the retirement home and you only have a 10' by 10' room as your shop. So you have to sell all your other tools first before moving in. And now you need something tiny to use in your new tiny shop. And you can carry the lightweight Styrofoam panel out onto the retirement home's center lawn when you need to cut a piece of plywood down to size. Before it can even fit on the MFT table inside your tiny shop.
> No question they're great for installers. At 42#, hauling one around
> would be easy. I didn't like the wobbly legs, either but this would
> be an acceptable tradeoff for a mobile workstation. One of the
> attendees at the Festool show said that he put a shelf across the
> bottom rungs and it's fine. That defeats its purpose as a mobile saw
> but solves the wobblies, apparently. They have a router MFT table too.
> I *really* didn't like how wobbly it was. I know everything is
> referenced to the top and movement doesn't matter to the cut but I
> want to work on a solid bench.
>
> Leon has and MFT for his shop and loves it. I was hoping he was still
> around to answer questions.

I am probably the wrong person to comment in this thread. Since I do not own an MFT and have never used it. Kind of like you. But I look at it and think, I already own tools that can do what the MFT does, but easier than the MFT. So why would I want an MFT? Unless there is a real reason, such as the space aspect or portability aspect. If a woodworker already owns all the tools, then the MFT does not seem like a good replacement. If you are just starting out and have nothing, then maybe the MFT is a good starter that means you never need anything else. Maybe. But I don't think you are talking about that type of situation.

As for shorter rails, I own an 800mm (31"). Not the holey one. Regular rail. I use it a little. But its not much more convenient than the 1400. And if you are cutting short things that fit the 800 rail, then they are about short enough to cut with the table saw or SCMS.

I like my Festool track saw. Its great. And great at many different cuts. But its bad at some cuts too. And the MFT seems to try to improve on the bad cuts. It probably helps. But there are other tools that are the very best for the bad track saw cuts. So why not just get the better other tool. Why try to improve on the track saw and get it just to mediocre. When you can get great with a different tool.

On Tue, 8 Nov 2022 12:53:51 -0800 (PST), "russellseaton1@yahoo.com"
<ritzannaseaton@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Tuesday, November 8, 2022 at 1:21:54 PM UTC-6, k...@notreal.com wrote:
>> On Mon, 7 Nov 2022 19:22:26 -0800 (PST), "russell...@yahoo.com"
>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >On Sunday, November 6, 2022 at 6:34:06 PM UTC-6, k...@notreal.com wrote:
>> >> On Sun, 6 Nov 2022 00:46:36 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
>> >> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >On Saturday, November 5, 2022 at 7:56:06 PM UTC-5, k...@notreal.com wrote:
>> >> >> I was at Highland today taking a serious look at the MFT/3. I must be
>> >> >> missing something (so was the sales guy and the Festool Owner's group)
>> >> >> but that think is about as accurate as a dull axe. The rail hinge is
>> >> >> just stamped steel, as is the pin it sits on. Before resting on the
>> >> >> pin there is about 1/4" play in the rail. Even after it's sitting on
>> >> >> the pin, there is about 1/16" play. How the hell can this thing be
>> >> >> used for woodworking. Framing, maybe.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Stamped steel hinges? It's worse than just a hinge. The "hinge" is
>> >> >> two pins with about 1-1/2" steel arms to hold the rail. Moving the
>> >> >> rail flexes these arms. It's a terrible design.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> FOG members say something like "Yeah, it's a terrible design and has
>> >> >> never been addressed but at least they make it more expensive every
>> >> >> year.".
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Leon?
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >No comment from me. I have a vague idea of what the MFT/3 is. A MDF table top with some size of mm holes drilled in it in a grid pattern. And you can use the newer Festool rails and track saw and maybe router on top of it. And expensive posts and other things fit into the mm holes. I never understood the appeal of it. Why not just use your table saw or miter saw to cut the wood? Or if using the track saw to cut the wood, just toss the wood onto a Styrofoam panel, lay the guide on top, and cut with the track saw.
>> >> I wasn't much interested until the Festool travlin' road show. They
>> >> were demonstrating some other tools, using the MFT. The setup is very
>> >> fast and they (of course) were making it look really good. I went
>> >> back Saturday to look closer without a bunch of Festool employees
>> >> standing around me. I was disappointed but could still be talked into
>> >> it by someone who uses one every day. There are just some things
>> >> about the rail mechanism (the MFT's bottom line) that didn't sit well.
>> >> It could have been so much more robust.
>> >> >Now, I will admit to creating my own MFT style table. I glued and screwed a set of 2x4s together to make a frame. Then have a piece of particleboard to sit on top. And some pipe sockets and pipes to make legs on the bottom. I can lay pieces of wood on top and straight line rip the edges with the track saw. Then feed the pieces into my table saw to rip to width. Its kind of an elevated Styrofoam panel so I don't have to crawl around on the floor.
>> >> I have a table with a sheet of MDF on a solid-core door, with edge
>> >> banding to hold the MDF from moving (it's just sitting there so can be
>> >> replaced easily). It's great for "ripping" panels down to size but not
>> >> so great at "cross-cutting".
>> >>
>> >> I plan on drilling dog holes in it but haven't decided on the US 3/4"
>> >> or European (Festool) 20mm holes. Since the table is so thick (2",
>> >> IIRC) passing the clamps from the bottom isn't going to work but
>> >> surface clamps will, which is always a problem.
>> >>
>> >> Since I always work alone and really can't moose full sheets around
>> >> like I once did (particularly now) so the table saw isn't very
>> >> user-friendly. I'd like to use it just for ripping and small parts.
>> >> The MFT is set up to make short work of "cross-cutting" panels. If
>> >> it were a little better, it could put a miter saw out to pasture.
>> >
>> >Again, I have no direct experience with the MFT table. Just seen pictures of it and read lots of comments from devotees about how wonderous it is. But I can't figure out why its so wonderful. I already own a SCMS that crosscuts 12 inches. I guess I could put in stop blocks on one side and flip the piece over so it would then crosscut 24 inches. Maybe that would work OK. SCMS cost $500 lets say. I also own a table saw. Its old now. Delta Contractors saw. I can crosscut and rip with it pretty darn good. Now, I agree working with full plywood sheets is cumbersome. Best to use the track saw and a Styrofoam panel first to cut the plywood down to size. Or to straight line rip an edge on long boards. I probably have at least $1000 over the decades invested into the table saw. Track saw and rails are of course expensive too. But you have to have a track saw and rails to make the MFT work. So you have to buy a track saw no matter what. MFT by itself is $775. Comes with a
>> >42" rail. It can cut 42" by 27". So you still need to buy a new longer rail to even crosscut a 4' x 8' sheet of plywood on the floor before you can even put it on the MFT. And a long rail to rip the plywood on its 8 foot side. And in addition to the $775 base cost, you still "need" to buy all the extra doo-dads for several hundreds of extra dollars. So the MFT table is over $1000 before its in its wonderous state.
>> You can buy a second and cut 8' pieces. ;-)
>> >As I said, I already own a SCMS. Probably don't need that, but I already bought it. So not going to get rid of it. And I have a table saw that does everything the MFT does. For less money. And I own a track saw and rails. Which you have to buy to use the MFT, so that is a wash. What would a MFT do that I cannot already do now? And I can probably do everything better now too. And faster.
>> There are certain situations where neither the table saw or the track
>> saw seem to be the right tool. The piece is big enough that I really
>> don't want to use the table saw and setting the track up is a PITA for
>> one cut. I've been thinking about getting a short track and just do
>> that. I have enough track to build a railroad but nothing shorter
>> than 55". I could cut one down on a track saw. ;-) I just might.
>> >Now, I can understand the appeal of the MFT in certain situations. You are a traveling carpenter living in your van. And all of your cutting is done with the MFT. And you pull it out of the van and set it up on the grass to do all your work. Might make sense in that situation. Or maybe you are moving into the retirement home and you only have a 10' by 10' room as your shop. So you have to sell all your other tools first before moving in. And now you need something tiny to use in your new tiny shop. And you can carry the lightweight Styrofoam panel out onto the retirement home's center lawn when you need to cut a piece of plywood down to size. Before it can even fit on the MFT table inside your tiny shop.
>> No question they're great for installers. At 42#, hauling one around
>> would be easy. I didn't like the wobbly legs, either but this would
>> be an acceptable tradeoff for a mobile workstation. One of the
>> attendees at the Festool show said that he put a shelf across the
>> bottom rungs and it's fine. That defeats its purpose as a mobile saw
>> but solves the wobblies, apparently. They have a router MFT table too.
>> I *really* didn't like how wobbly it was. I know everything is
>> referenced to the top and movement doesn't matter to the cut but I
>> want to work on a solid bench.
>>
>> Leon has and MFT for his shop and loves it. I was hoping he was still
>> around to answer questions.
>
>
>I am probably the wrong person to comment in this thread. Since I do not own an MFT and have never used it. Kind of like you. But I look at it and think, I already own tools that can do what the MFT does, but easier than the MFT. So why would I want an MFT? Unless there is a real reason, such as the space aspect or portability aspect. If a woodworker already owns all the tools, then the MFT does not seem like a good replacement. If you are just starting out and have nothing, then maybe the MFT is a good starter that means you never need anything else. Maybe. But I don't think you are talking about that type of situation.
>
>As for shorter rails, I own an 800mm (31"). Not the holey one. Regular rail. I use it a little. But its not much more convenient than the 1400. And if you are cutting short things that fit the 800 rail, then they are about short enough to cut with the table saw or SCMS.

On Tuesday, November 8, 2022 at 7:59:38 PM UTC-6, k...@notreal.com wrote:
> On Tue, 8 Nov 2022 12:53:51 -0800 (PST), "russell...@yahoo.com"
> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >On Tuesday, November 8, 2022 at 1:21:54 PM UTC-6, k...@notreal.com wrote:
> >> On Mon, 7 Nov 2022 19:22:26 -0800 (PST), "russell...@yahoo.com"
> >> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> >On Sunday, November 6, 2022 at 6:34:06 PM UTC-6, k...@notreal.com wrote:
> >> >> On Sun, 6 Nov 2022 00:46:36 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
> >> >> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> >On Saturday, November 5, 2022 at 7:56:06 PM UTC-5, k...@notreal.com wrote:
> >> >> >> I was at Highland today taking a serious look at the MFT/3. I must be
> >> >> >> missing something (so was the sales guy and the Festool Owner's group)
> >> >> >> but that think is about as accurate as a dull axe. The rail hinge is
> >> >> >> just stamped steel, as is the pin it sits on. Before resting on the
> >> >> >> pin there is about 1/4" play in the rail. Even after it's sitting on
> >> >> >> the pin, there is about 1/16" play. How the hell can this thing be
> >> >> >> used for woodworking. Framing, maybe.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Stamped steel hinges? It's worse than just a hinge. The "hinge" is
> >> >> >> two pins with about 1-1/2" steel arms to hold the rail. Moving the
> >> >> >> rail flexes these arms. It's a terrible design.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> FOG members say something like "Yeah, it's a terrible design and has
> >> >> >> never been addressed but at least they make it more expensive every
> >> >> >> year.".
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Leon?
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >No comment from me. I have a vague idea of what the MFT/3 is. A MDF table top with some size of mm holes drilled in it in a grid pattern. And you can use the newer Festool rails and track saw and maybe router on top of it. And expensive posts and other things fit into the mm holes. I never understood the appeal of it. Why not just use your table saw or miter saw to cut the wood? Or if using the track saw to cut the wood, just toss the wood onto a Styrofoam panel, lay the guide on top, and cut with the track saw..
> >> >> I wasn't much interested until the Festool travlin' road show. They
> >> >> were demonstrating some other tools, using the MFT. The setup is very
> >> >> fast and they (of course) were making it look really good. I went
> >> >> back Saturday to look closer without a bunch of Festool employees
> >> >> standing around me. I was disappointed but could still be talked into
> >> >> it by someone who uses one every day. There are just some things
> >> >> about the rail mechanism (the MFT's bottom line) that didn't sit well.
> >> >> It could have been so much more robust.
> >> >> >Now, I will admit to creating my own MFT style table. I glued and screwed a set of 2x4s together to make a frame. Then have a piece of particleboard to sit on top. And some pipe sockets and pipes to make legs on the bottom. I can lay pieces of wood on top and straight line rip the edges with the track saw. Then feed the pieces into my table saw to rip to width. Its kind of an elevated Styrofoam panel so I don't have to crawl around on the floor.
> >> >> I have a table with a sheet of MDF on a solid-core door, with edge
> >> >> banding to hold the MDF from moving (it's just sitting there so can be
> >> >> replaced easily). It's great for "ripping" panels down to size but not
> >> >> so great at "cross-cutting".
> >> >>
> >> >> I plan on drilling dog holes in it but haven't decided on the US 3/4"
> >> >> or European (Festool) 20mm holes. Since the table is so thick (2",
> >> >> IIRC) passing the clamps from the bottom isn't going to work but
> >> >> surface clamps will, which is always a problem.
> >> >>
> >> >> Since I always work alone and really can't moose full sheets around
> >> >> like I once did (particularly now) so the table saw isn't very
> >> >> user-friendly. I'd like to use it just for ripping and small parts.
> >> >> The MFT is set up to make short work of "cross-cutting" panels. If
> >> >> it were a little better, it could put a miter saw out to pasture.
> >> >
> >> >Again, I have no direct experience with the MFT table. Just seen pictures of it and read lots of comments from devotees about how wonderous it is. But I can't figure out why its so wonderful. I already own a SCMS that crosscuts 12 inches. I guess I could put in stop blocks on one side and flip the piece over so it would then crosscut 24 inches. Maybe that would work OK. SCMS cost $500 lets say. I also own a table saw. Its old now. Delta Contractors saw. I can crosscut and rip with it pretty darn good. Now, I agree working with full plywood sheets is cumbersome. Best to use the track saw and a Styrofoam panel first to cut the plywood down to size. Or to straight line rip an edge on long boards. I probably have at least $1000 over the decades invested into the table saw. Track saw and rails are of course expensive too. But you have to have a track saw and rails to make the MFT work. So you have to buy a track saw no matter what. MFT by itself is $775. Comes with a
> >> >42" rail. It can cut 42" by 27". So you still need to buy a new longer rail to even crosscut a 4' x 8' sheet of plywood on the floor before you can even put it on the MFT. And a long rail to rip the plywood on its 8 foot side. And in addition to the $775 base cost, you still "need" to buy all the extra doo-dads for several hundreds of extra dollars. So the MFT table is over $1000 before its in its wonderous state.
> >> You can buy a second and cut 8' pieces. ;-)
> >> >As I said, I already own a SCMS. Probably don't need that, but I already bought it. So not going to get rid of it. And I have a table saw that does everything the MFT does. For less money. And I own a track saw and rails. Which you have to buy to use the MFT, so that is a wash. What would a MFT do that I cannot already do now? And I can probably do everything better now too. And faster.
> >> There are certain situations where neither the table saw or the track
> >> saw seem to be the right tool. The piece is big enough that I really
> >> don't want to use the table saw and setting the track up is a PITA for
> >> one cut. I've been thinking about getting a short track and just do
> >> that. I have enough track to build a railroad but nothing shorter
> >> than 55". I could cut one down on a track saw. ;-) I just might.
> >> >Now, I can understand the appeal of the MFT in certain situations. You are a traveling carpenter living in your van. And all of your cutting is done with the MFT. And you pull it out of the van and set it up on the grass to do all your work. Might make sense in that situation. Or maybe you are moving into the retirement home and you only have a 10' by 10' room as your shop. So you have to sell all your other tools first before moving in. And now you need something tiny to use in your new tiny shop. And you can carry the lightweight Styrofoam panel out onto the retirement home's center lawn when you need to cut a piece of plywood down to size. Before it can even fit on the MFT table inside your tiny shop.
> >> No question they're great for installers. At 42#, hauling one around
> >> would be easy. I didn't like the wobbly legs, either but this would
> >> be an acceptable tradeoff for a mobile workstation. One of the
> >> attendees at the Festool show said that he put a shelf across the
> >> bottom rungs and it's fine. That defeats its purpose as a mobile saw
> >> but solves the wobblies, apparently. They have a router MFT table too.
> >> I *really* didn't like how wobbly it was. I know everything is
> >> referenced to the top and movement doesn't matter to the cut but I
> >> want to work on a solid bench.
> >>
> >> Leon has and MFT for his shop and loves it. I was hoping he was still
> >> around to answer questions.
> >
> >
> >I am probably the wrong person to comment in this thread. Since I do not own an MFT and have never used it. Kind of like you. But I look at it and think, I already own tools that can do what the MFT does, but easier than the MFT. So why would I want an MFT? Unless there is a real reason, such as the space aspect or portability aspect. If a woodworker already owns all the tools, then the MFT does not seem like a good replacement. If you are just starting out and have nothing, then maybe the MFT is a good starter that means you never need anything else. Maybe. But I don't think you are talking about that type of situation.
> >
> >As for shorter rails, I own an 800mm (31"). Not the holey one. Regular rail. I use it a little. But its not much more convenient than the 1400. And if you are cutting short things that fit the 800 rail, then they are about short enough to cut with the table saw or SCMS.
> I often get into a situation where I have a long piece (8' for
> argument's sake) that may be 2' wide that I want to cut cross-wise. A
> 55" track is a pain because, while the bench I use will easily handle
> it, the space around it gets cramped. It's too long to cut on the
> table saw easily and the 55" rail gets to be a pain. Your 31" rail
> might be a good alternative. That's pretty much what I'd use the MFT
> for.
>
> The MFT is also really good at cutting sheets at an angle. I have to
> admit, though, that I think I've only needed to do it once. I think it
> would replace a SMCS, though like most here, I already have one
> (three, actually).
> >I like my Festool track saw. Its great. And great at many different cuts.. But its bad at some cuts too. And the MFT seems to try to improve on the bad cuts. It probably helps. But there are other tools that are the very best for the bad track saw cuts. So why not just get the better other tool. Why try to improve on the track saw and get it just to mediocre. When you can get great with a different tool.
> Do you have an example of these cuts and tools?

On 11/5/2022 7:56 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
> I was at Highland today taking a serious look at the MFT/3. I must be
> missing something (so was the sales guy and the Festool Owner's group)
> but that think is about as accurate as a dull axe. The rail hinge is
> just stamped steel, as is the pin it sits on. Before resting on the
> pin there is about 1/4" play in the rail. Even after it's sitting on
> the pin, there is about 1/16" play. How the hell can this thing be
> used for woodworking. Framing, maybe.
>
> Stamped steel hinges? It's worse than just a hinge. The "hinge" is
> two pins with about 1-1/2" steel arms to hold the rail. Moving the
> rail flexes these arms. It's a terrible design.
>
> FOG members say something like "Yeah, it's a terrible design and has
> never been addressed but at least they make it more expensive every
> year.".
>
> Leon?

I suppose you are talking about the guide rail hinges. It works well
enough, you have an indexing spot on the opposite side from the hinge
that keeps the rail square and or stable. BUT it is a RPIA to set all
of that up every time I set up or take it down. So I seldom use it at
all in that capacity but I have the extra short guide rail. It used to
be that the rail and miter and accessories were a $100 add on to the
MFT. The rail alone was worth more than that so I opted for the whole
set up 8~10 years ago.

As for the MFT table, I use it all the time. Yet it wobbles but I do
not notice that. The clamping elements and hold down clamps, and dogs
are constant use items. Great table for the Shaper Workstation.

On 11/11/2022 10:47 AM, Leon wrote:
> On 11/5/2022 7:56 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
>> I was at Highland today taking a serious look at the MFT/3.  I must be
>> missing something (so was the sales guy and the Festool Owner's group)
>> but that think is about as accurate as a dull axe.  The rail hinge is
>> just stamped steel, as is the pin it sits on.  Before resting on the
>> pin there is about 1/4" play in the rail.  Even after it's sitting on
>> the pin, there is about 1/16" play.  How the hell can this thing be
>> used for woodworking. Framing, maybe.
>>
>> Stamped steel hinges?  It's worse than just a hinge.  The "hinge" is
>> two pins with about 1-1/2" steel arms to hold the rail.  Moving the
>> rail flexes these arms.  It's a terrible design.
>>
>> FOG members say something like "Yeah, it's a terrible design and has
>> never been addressed but at least they make it more expensive every
>> year.".
>>
>> Leon?
>
> I suppose you are talking about the guide rail hinges.   It works well
> enough, you have an indexing spot on the opposite side from the hinge
> that keeps the rail square and or stable.  BUT it is a RPIA to set all
> of that up every time I set up or take it down.  So I seldom use it at
> all in that capacity but I have the extra short guide rail.  It used to
> be that the rail and miter and accessories were a $100 add on to the
> MFT.  The rail alone was worth more than that so I opted for the whole
> set up 8~10 years ago.
>
> As for the MFT table, I use it all the time.   Yet it wobbles but I do
> not notice that.   The clamping elements and hold down clamps, and dogs
> are constant use items.   Great table for the Shaper Workstation.

And I have cut countless, well many thousands of, mortises with my
Domino on that table using its dogs and clamping elements. Fast and easy.

On Fri, 11 Nov 2022 10:47:52 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:

>On 11/5/2022 7:56 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
>> I was at Highland today taking a serious look at the MFT/3. I must be
>> missing something (so was the sales guy and the Festool Owner's group)
>> but that think is about as accurate as a dull axe. The rail hinge is
>> just stamped steel, as is the pin it sits on. Before resting on the
>> pin there is about 1/4" play in the rail. Even after it's sitting on
>> the pin, there is about 1/16" play. How the hell can this thing be
>> used for woodworking. Framing, maybe.
>>
>> Stamped steel hinges? It's worse than just a hinge. The "hinge" is
>> two pins with about 1-1/2" steel arms to hold the rail. Moving the
>> rail flexes these arms. It's a terrible design.
>>
>> FOG members say something like "Yeah, it's a terrible design and has
>> never been addressed but at least they make it more expensive every
>> year.".
>>
>> Leon?
>
>I suppose you are talking about the guide rail hinges. It works well
>enough, you have an indexing spot on the opposite side from the hinge
>that keeps the rail square and or stable. BUT it is a RPIA to set all
>of that up every time I set up or take it down. So I seldom use it at
>all in that capacity but I have the extra short guide rail. It used to
>be that the rail and miter and accessories were a $100 add on to the
>MFT. The rail alone was worth more than that so I opted for the whole
>set up 8~10 years ago.

The hinge has a lot of play but even with the rail down on the index
tang there is a 1/16" play in the rail. The index tang has to be moved
for a different miter setting but there is a 1/4" play in the rail
without resting on the index. So, how does the opposite side index get
set?

The rail miter gauge and everything is now a $200 option but it's
still well worth it. I don't see the table being useful without it.

>As for the MFT table, I use it all the time. Yet it wobbles but I do
>not notice that. The clamping elements and hold down clamps, and dogs
>are constant use items. Great table for the Shaper Workstation.

Hadn't though of that but I put some 1/4-20 threaded inserts in my
workbench and use knurled brass screws to mount the workstation. When
not in use the screws are recessed into the bench top so the threads
stay clean. The bench is too thick to fish clamps from the bottom but
it works otherwise. I plan on drilling 20mm holes in the top so I can
use the Festool mounting parts.

On Friday, November 11, 2022 at 10:52:37 AM UTC-6, Leon wrote:
> On 11/11/2022 10:47 AM, Leon wrote:
> >> Leon?
> >
> > I suppose you are talking about the guide rail hinges. It works well
> > enough, you have an indexing spot on the opposite side from the hinge
> > that keeps the rail square and or stable. BUT it is a RPIA to set all
> > of that up every time I set up or take it down. So I seldom use it at
> > all in that capacity but I have the extra short guide rail. It used to
> > be that the rail and miter and accessories were a $100 add on to the
> > MFT. The rail alone was worth more than that so I opted for the whole
> > set up 8~10 years ago.
> >
> > As for the MFT table, I use it all the time. Yet it wobbles but I do
> > not notice that. The clamping elements and hold down clamps, and dogs
> > are constant use items. Great table for the Shaper Workstation.
> And I have cut countless, well many thousands of, mortises with my
> Domino on that table using its dogs and clamping elements. Fast and easy.

Seems to me you are saying the MFT/3 is a good work table. And you use its associated dogs, clamps, and holes in the table top to hold and clamp lots of things. Great. But what about its main purpose(?) of using the track saw and rails on top to cut things?

I looked on Google and the official MFT/3 perforated top is sold for $172. And Amazon has copies for less. Couldn't you easily make a base out of 2x4s and achieve your usage of the MFT/3? Or get fancy and make a folding base of sorts.

On 11/12/2022 1:36 AM, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Friday, November 11, 2022 at 10:52:37 AM UTC-6, Leon wrote:
>> On 11/11/2022 10:47 AM, Leon wrote:
>>>> Leon?
>>>
>>> I suppose you are talking about the guide rail hinges. It works well
>>> enough, you have an indexing spot on the opposite side from the hinge
>>> that keeps the rail square and or stable. BUT it is a RPIA to set all
>>> of that up every time I set up or take it down. So I seldom use it at
>>> all in that capacity but I have the extra short guide rail. It used to
>>> be that the rail and miter and accessories were a $100 add on to the
>>> MFT. The rail alone was worth more than that so I opted for the whole
>>> set up 8~10 years ago.
>>>
>>> As for the MFT table, I use it all the time. Yet it wobbles but I do
>>> not notice that. The clamping elements and hold down clamps, and dogs
>>> are constant use items. Great table for the Shaper Workstation.
>> And I have cut countless, well many thousands of, mortises with my
>> Domino on that table using its dogs and clamping elements. Fast and easy.
>
> Seems to me you are saying the MFT/3 is a good work table. And you use its associated dogs, clamps, and holes in the table top to hold and clamp lots of things. Great. But what about its main purpose(?) of using the track saw and rails on top to cut things?
>
> I looked on Google and the official MFT/3 perforated top is sold for $172. And Amazon has copies for less. Couldn't you easily make a base out of 2x4s and achieve your usage of the MFT/3? Or get fancy and make a folding base of sorts.
On 11/12/2022 1:36 AM, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Friday, November 11, 2022 at 10:52:37 AM UTC-6, Leon wrote:
>> On 11/11/2022 10:47 AM, Leon wrote:
>>>> Leon?
>>>
>>> I suppose you are talking about the guide rail hinges. It works well
>>> enough, you have an indexing spot on the opposite side from the hinge
>>> that keeps the rail square and or stable. BUT it is a RPIA to set all
>>> of that up every time I set up or take it down. So I seldom use it at
>>> all in that capacity but I have the extra short guide rail. It used to
>>> be that the rail and miter and accessories were a $100 add on to the
>>> MFT. The rail alone was worth more than that so I opted for the whole
>>> set up 8~10 years ago.
>>>
>>> As for the MFT table, I use it all the time. Yet it wobbles but I do
>>> not notice that. The clamping elements and hold down clamps, and dogs
>>> are constant use items. Great table for the Shaper Workstation.
>> And I have cut countless, well many thousands of, mortises with my
>> Domino on that table using its dogs and clamping elements. Fast and
easy.
>
> Seems to me you are saying the MFT/3 is a good work table. And you
use its associated dogs, clamps, and holes in the table top to hold and
clamp lots of things. Great. But what about its main purpose(?) of
using the track saw and rails on top to cut things?
The MFT/3 main purpose is to be a work table. Multi Function Table.
The track saw track accessory is a $100.00 option. Just the work table
can be bought for $675.00 vs $775.00 that includes the 42" track
accessory, mounting hardware and protractor. It is less expensive to
buy the MFT/3 with the track saw rail option than to buy the basic MFT/3
and seperately only the 42" track. The track accessory is not its main
purpose. The MFT/3 can also be had as a Conturo Table set for $845.00.

>
> I looked on Google and the official MFT/3 perforated top is sold for
$172. And Amazon has copies for less. Couldn't you easily make a base
out of 2x4s and achieve your usage of the MFT/3? Or get fancy and make
a folding base of sorts.
Prices depend on whether you are buying after market tops or genuine
Festool tops. I see the Festool top on Amazon for $172.

Yes you can build a base and mount that top to it.

But a comparable base would have foldable and adjustable legs, side
rails for using clamps to hold work vertically, and folds to about 8"
thick and stores on its edge/side.

No doubt there are countless options if you do not want the track saw or
conturo options for the MFT/3 and no one argues that Festool is not
expensive. Bora makes a foldable top for their Cenepede set up that is
$42 and about the same size as the MDT/3 table top.

I will restate that I have the stack saw set up for my MFT/3. I opted
for that addition to get the 42" track for less than buying the track
out right by itself. I cannot remember the last time I set the MFT/3
up to use with the track to cut stock. But I use the 42" rail by
itself all of the time. The track saw set up is not a quick set up.
You pretty much have to remove the track and, protractor, and mounting
brackets if you want to put the MFT/3 away with its legs folded.

The question is do you want something that is Festool comparable and
uses all of the Festool accessories or something fashioned like the
MFT/3 and kinda has similar functions.

On 11/11/2022 2:27 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
> On Fri, 11 Nov 2022 10:47:52 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
> wrote:
>
>> On 11/5/2022 7:56 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
>>> I was at Highland today taking a serious look at the MFT/3. I must be
>>> missing something (so was the sales guy and the Festool Owner's group)
>>> but that think is about as accurate as a dull axe. The rail hinge is
>>> just stamped steel, as is the pin it sits on. Before resting on the
>>> pin there is about 1/4" play in the rail. Even after it's sitting on
>>> the pin, there is about 1/16" play. How the hell can this thing be
>>> used for woodworking. Framing, maybe.
>>>
>>> Stamped steel hinges? It's worse than just a hinge. The "hinge" is
>>> two pins with about 1-1/2" steel arms to hold the rail. Moving the
>>> rail flexes these arms. It's a terrible design.
>>>
>>> FOG members say something like "Yeah, it's a terrible design and has
>>> never been addressed but at least they make it more expensive every
>>> year.".
>>>
>>> Leon?
>>
>> I suppose you are talking about the guide rail hinges. It works well
>> enough, you have an indexing spot on the opposite side from the hinge
>> that keeps the rail square and or stable. BUT it is a RPIA to set all
>> of that up every time I set up or take it down. So I seldom use it at
>> all in that capacity but I have the extra short guide rail. It used to
>> be that the rail and miter and accessories were a $100 add on to the
>> MFT. The rail alone was worth more than that so I opted for the whole
>> set up 8~10 years ago.
>
> The hinge has a lot of play but even with the rail down on the index
> tang there is a 1/16" play in the rail. The index tang has to be moved
> for a different miter setting but there is a 1/4" play in the rail
> without resting on the index. So, how does the opposite side index get
> set?
>
> The rail miter gauge and everything is now a $200 option but it's
> still well worth it. I don't see the table being useful without it.
>
>
>> As for the MFT table, I use it all the time. Yet it wobbles but I do
>> not notice that. The clamping elements and hold down clamps, and dogs
>> are constant use items. Great table for the Shaper Workstation.
>
> Hadn't though of that but I put some 1/4-20 threaded inserts in my
> workbench and use knurled brass screws to mount the workstation. When
> not in use the screws are recessed into the bench top so the threads
> stay clean. The bench is too thick to fish clamps from the bottom but
> it works otherwise. I plan on drilling 20mm holes in the top so I can
> use the Festool mounting parts.
On 11/11/2022 2:27 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
> On Fri, 11 Nov 2022 10:47:52 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
> wrote:
>
>> On 11/5/2022 7:56 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
>>> I was at Highland today taking a serious look at the MFT/3. I must be
>>> missing something (so was the sales guy and the Festool Owner's group)
>>> but that think is about as accurate as a dull axe. The rail hinge is
>>> just stamped steel, as is the pin it sits on. Before resting on the
>>> pin there is about 1/4" play in the rail. Even after it's sitting on
>>> the pin, there is about 1/16" play. How the hell can this thing be
>>> used for woodworking. Framing, maybe.
>>>
>>> Stamped steel hinges? It's worse than just a hinge. The "hinge" is
>>> two pins with about 1-1/2" steel arms to hold the rail. Moving the
>>> rail flexes these arms. It's a terrible design.
>>>
>>> FOG members say something like "Yeah, it's a terrible design and has
>>> never been addressed but at least they make it more expensive every
>>> year.".
>>>
>>> Leon?
>>
>> I suppose you are talking about the guide rail hinges. It works well
>> enough, you have an indexing spot on the opposite side from the hinge
>> that keeps the rail square and or stable. BUT it is a RPIA to set all
>> of that up every time I set up or take it down. So I seldom use it at
>> all in that capacity but I have the extra short guide rail. It used to
>> be that the rail and miter and accessories were a $100 add on to the
>> MFT. The rail alone was worth more than that so I opted for the whole
>> set up 8~10 years ago.
>
> The hinge has a lot of play but even with the rail down on the index
> tang there is a 1/16" play in the rail. The index tang has to be moved
> for a different miter setting but there is a 1/4" play in the rail
> without resting on the index. So, how does the opposite side index get
> set?
I think most any type of hinge would have a lot of play if you are
holding the other end of the 42" track. I don't think anything is
going to be fool proof in this type set up.
The indexing support indexes against a stop that is placed and fixed
inside the MFT/3 side rail slot. You make that adjustment for that
piece. It is for resetting up the track to make 90 degree cuts if you
break the set up down after use. As for angles, I have never cut
angles on mine, the indexing pin on the support would be at an angle to
the slot in the track and I can see how there could be play. BUT even
Incra miter gauges and long extension fences have play. Keep in mind
that 1/4" play at the end of 42" may only equate to being 1/3 of a
degree. I know that 1/4" play seems pretty sloppy but you may not be
able to measure the degree result from one extreme to the next. If you
are looking for dead on accuracy consider just using the track aligned
with marks on the work, less the protractor, hinge, mounting hardware.
For the time and effort to break down the track saw set up I simply
don't use it in that capacity. But as I mentioned on another response
I do use the 42" track by it self quite often. And the track saw
option to the MFT/3 is less than buying the 42" rack alone.

If you need to do "a lot" of "angle" cutting of panels this may be a
good choice. I do not cut a lot of angles and my miter saw and or my
TS and or simply measuring and aligning the TS track to pencil marks is
good enough for me, and I can be pretty anal.

>
> The rail miter gauge and everything is now a $200 option but it's
> still well worth it. I don't see the table being useful without it.
>
>
>> As for the MFT table, I use it all the time. Yet it wobbles but I do
>> not notice that. The clamping elements and hold down clamps, and dogs
>> are constant use items. Great table for the Shaper Workstation.
>
> Hadn't though of that but I put some 1/4-20 threaded inserts in my
> workbench and use knurled brass screws to mount the workstation. When
> not in use the screws are recessed into the bench top so the threads
> stay clean. The bench is too thick to fish clamps from the bottom but
> it works otherwise. I plan on drilling 20mm holes in the top so I can
> use the Festool mounting parts.
I use the ratcheting Festool clamps through the bench holes and located
at the back and side of the Workstation. The ratcheting handle is on
the top side of the bench and does not get in the way back there in that
location.

On 11/12/2022 9:19 AM, L

11/12/2022 9:19 AM, Leon wrote:

Ok, It has been so long since I used the track with the MFT/3 that I
forgot that the protractor is a separate piece. I was somehow thinking
that the protractor mounted to the track. The track angle is fixed,
the indexing rest and the hinge snug up against a fixed indexing stop,
both sides, tucked inside the MFT/3 side rail slot. You do not remove
those stops. So that is repeatable when setting back up.

On Fri, 11 Nov 2022 23:36:23 -0800 (PST), "russellseaton1@yahoo.com"
<ritzannaseaton@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Friday, November 11, 2022 at 10:52:37 AM UTC-6, Leon wrote:
>> On 11/11/2022 10:47 AM, Leon wrote:
>> >> Leon?
>> >
>> > I suppose you are talking about the guide rail hinges. It works well
>> > enough, you have an indexing spot on the opposite side from the hinge
>> > that keeps the rail square and or stable. BUT it is a RPIA to set all
>> > of that up every time I set up or take it down. So I seldom use it at
>> > all in that capacity but I have the extra short guide rail. It used to
>> > be that the rail and miter and accessories were a $100 add on to the
>> > MFT. The rail alone was worth more than that so I opted for the whole
>> > set up 8~10 years ago.
>> >
>> > As for the MFT table, I use it all the time. Yet it wobbles but I do
>> > not notice that. The clamping elements and hold down clamps, and dogs
>> > are constant use items. Great table for the Shaper Workstation.
>> And I have cut countless, well many thousands of, mortises with my
>> Domino on that table using its dogs and clamping elements. Fast and easy.
>
>Seems to me you are saying the MFT/3 is a good work table. And you use its associated dogs, clamps, and holes in the table top to hold and clamp lots of things. Great. But what about its main purpose(?) of using the track saw and rails on top to cut things?
>
>I looked on Google and the official MFT/3 perforated top is sold for $172. And Amazon has copies for less. Couldn't you easily make a base out of 2x4s and achieve your usage of the MFT/3? Or get fancy and make a folding base of sorts.

If all you want is an MDF table with dog holes in it, buy a sheet of
MDF and a Woodpeckers hole boring jig. The jig and MDF will cost
about the same but you can make the table as large as you want. You
can make replacements for that at just the cost of another piece of
MDF.

On Sat, 12 Nov 2022 09:19:19 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:

>On 11/11/2022 2:27 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
>> On Fri, 11 Nov 2022 10:47:52 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 11/5/2022 7:56 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
>>>> I was at Highland today taking a serious look at the MFT/3. I must be
>>>> missing something (so was the sales guy and the Festool Owner's group)
>>>> but that think is about as accurate as a dull axe. The rail hinge is
>>>> just stamped steel, as is the pin it sits on. Before resting on the
>>>> pin there is about 1/4" play in the rail. Even after it's sitting on
>>>> the pin, there is about 1/16" play. How the hell can this thing be
>>>> used for woodworking. Framing, maybe.
>>>>
>>>> Stamped steel hinges? It's worse than just a hinge. The "hinge" is
>>>> two pins with about 1-1/2" steel arms to hold the rail. Moving the
>>>> rail flexes these arms. It's a terrible design.
>>>>
>>>> FOG members say something like "Yeah, it's a terrible design and has
>>>> never been addressed but at least they make it more expensive every
>>>> year.".
>>>>
>>>> Leon?
>>>
>>> I suppose you are talking about the guide rail hinges. It works well
>>> enough, you have an indexing spot on the opposite side from the hinge
>>> that keeps the rail square and or stable. BUT it is a RPIA to set all
>>> of that up every time I set up or take it down. So I seldom use it at
>>> all in that capacity but I have the extra short guide rail. It used to
>>> be that the rail and miter and accessories were a $100 add on to the
>>> MFT. The rail alone was worth more than that so I opted for the whole
>>> set up 8~10 years ago.
>>
>> The hinge has a lot of play but even with the rail down on the index
>> tang there is a 1/16" play in the rail. The index tang has to be moved
>> for a different miter setting but there is a 1/4" play in the rail
>> without resting on the index. So, how does the opposite side index get
>> set?
>>
>> The rail miter gauge and everything is now a $200 option but it's
>> still well worth it. I don't see the table being useful without it.
>>
>>
>>> As for the MFT table, I use it all the time. Yet it wobbles but I do
>>> not notice that. The clamping elements and hold down clamps, and dogs
>>> are constant use items. Great table for the Shaper Workstation.
>>
>> Hadn't though of that but I put some 1/4-20 threaded inserts in my
>> workbench and use knurled brass screws to mount the workstation. When
>> not in use the screws are recessed into the bench top so the threads
>> stay clean. The bench is too thick to fish clamps from the bottom but
>> it works otherwise. I plan on drilling 20mm holes in the top so I can
>> use the Festool mounting parts.
>On 11/11/2022 2:27 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
> > On Fri, 11 Nov 2022 10:47:52 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> On 11/5/2022 7:56 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
> >>> I was at Highland today taking a serious look at the MFT/3. I must be
> >>> missing something (so was the sales guy and the Festool Owner's group)
> >>> but that think is about as accurate as a dull axe. The rail hinge is
> >>> just stamped steel, as is the pin it sits on. Before resting on the
> >>> pin there is about 1/4" play in the rail. Even after it's sitting on
> >>> the pin, there is about 1/16" play. How the hell can this thing be
> >>> used for woodworking. Framing, maybe.
> >>>
> >>> Stamped steel hinges? It's worse than just a hinge. The "hinge" is
> >>> two pins with about 1-1/2" steel arms to hold the rail. Moving the
> >>> rail flexes these arms. It's a terrible design.
> >>>
> >>> FOG members say something like "Yeah, it's a terrible design and has
> >>> never been addressed but at least they make it more expensive every
> >>> year.".
> >>>
> >>> Leon?
> >>
> >> I suppose you are talking about the guide rail hinges. It works well
> >> enough, you have an indexing spot on the opposite side from the hinge
> >> that keeps the rail square and or stable. BUT it is a RPIA to set all
> >> of that up every time I set up or take it down. So I seldom use it at
> >> all in that capacity but I have the extra short guide rail. It used to
> >> be that the rail and miter and accessories were a $100 add on to the
> >> MFT. The rail alone was worth more than that so I opted for the whole
> >> set up 8~10 years ago.
> >
> > The hinge has a lot of play but even with the rail down on the index
> > tang there is a 1/16" play in the rail. The index tang has to be moved
> > for a different miter setting but there is a 1/4" play in the rail
> > without resting on the index. So, how does the opposite side index get
> > set?
>I think most any type of hinge would have a lot of play if you are
>holding the other end of the 42" track. I don't think anything is
>going to be fool proof in this type set up.

If it were cast, it would have a lot less. You can see the sheet
metal bending when you put even very little side pressure on the
track. In the 90-degree position the opposite side index reduces the
play a lot. It wouldn't take much to make it better.

>The indexing support indexes against a stop that is placed and fixed
>inside the MFT/3 side rail slot. You make that adjustment for that
>piece. It is for resetting up the track to make 90 degree cuts if you
>break the set up down after use. As for angles, I have never cut
>angles on mine, the indexing pin on the support would be at an angle to
>the slot in the track and I can see how there could be play. BUT even
>Incra miter gauges and long extension fences have play. Keep in mind
>that 1/4" play at the end of 42" may only equate to being 1/3 of a
>degree.

The miter gauge and fence looks like a pretty expensive part to never
use. ;-0 Frankly, I've never used my track saw for angles either.

>I know that 1/4" play seems pretty sloppy but you may not be
>able to measure the degree result from one extreme to the next.

I get 1/8 of a degree - point taken (if I didn't blow the arithmetic
1/2-degree per inch). With the indexing pin, it's more like 1/16", so
completely irrelevant. Hard to believe that I didn't screw up the
arithmetic. 30 * 2pi inches in the circumference, divided by 360
equals 1/2 inch per degree. 1/4" = 1/8 degree. Seems a square is
superfluous. ;-)

>If you
>are looking for dead on accuracy consider just using the track aligned
>with marks on the work, less the protractor, hinge, mounting hardware.
>For the time and effort to break down the track saw set up I simply
>don't use it in that capacity. But as I mentioned on another response
>I do use the 42" track by it self quite often. And the track saw
>option to the MFT/3 is less than buying the 42" rack alone.

The option implies the table, though. The function is then $775.
>
>If you need to do "a lot" of "angle" cutting of panels this may be a
>good choice. I do not cut a lot of angles and my miter saw and or my
>TS and or simply measuring and aligning the TS track to pencil marks is
>good enough for me, and I can be pretty anal.

THe angle unit comes with the track for that $100.
>
>
> >
> > The rail miter gauge and everything is now a $200 option but it's
> > still well worth it. I don't see the table being useful without it.
> >
> >
> >> As for the MFT table, I use it all the time. Yet it wobbles but I do
> >> not notice that. The clamping elements and hold down clamps, and dogs
> >> are constant use items. Great table for the Shaper Workstation.
> >
> > Hadn't though of that but I put some 1/4-20 threaded inserts in my
> > workbench and use knurled brass screws to mount the workstation. When
> > not in use the screws are recessed into the bench top so the threads
> > stay clean. The bench is too thick to fish clamps from the bottom but
> > it works otherwise. I plan on drilling 20mm holes in the top so I can
> > use the Festool mounting parts.
>I use the ratcheting Festool clamps through the bench holes and located
>at the back and side of the Workstation. The ratcheting handle is on
>the top side of the bench and does not get in the way back there in that
>location.

On Wed, 9 Nov 2022 19:52:02 -0800 (PST), "russellseaton1@yahoo.com"
<ritzannaseaton@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Tuesday, November 8, 2022 at 7:59:38 PM UTC-6, k...@notreal.com wrote:
>> On Tue, 8 Nov 2022 12:53:51 -0800 (PST), "russell...@yahoo.com"
>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >On Tuesday, November 8, 2022 at 1:21:54 PM UTC-6, k...@notreal.com wrote:
>> >> On Mon, 7 Nov 2022 19:22:26 -0800 (PST), "russell...@yahoo.com"
>> >> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >On Sunday, November 6, 2022 at 6:34:06 PM UTC-6, k...@notreal.com wrote:
>> >> >> On Sun, 6 Nov 2022 00:46:36 -0700 (PDT), "russell...@yahoo.com"
>> >> >> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> >On Saturday, November 5, 2022 at 7:56:06 PM UTC-5, k...@notreal.com wrote:
>> >> >> >> I was at Highland today taking a serious look at the MFT/3. I must be
>> >> >> >> missing something (so was the sales guy and the Festool Owner's group)
>> >> >> >> but that think is about as accurate as a dull axe. The rail hinge is
>> >> >> >> just stamped steel, as is the pin it sits on. Before resting on the
>> >> >> >> pin there is about 1/4" play in the rail. Even after it's sitting on
>> >> >> >> the pin, there is about 1/16" play. How the hell can this thing be
>> >> >> >> used for woodworking. Framing, maybe.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Stamped steel hinges? It's worse than just a hinge. The "hinge" is
>> >> >> >> two pins with about 1-1/2" steel arms to hold the rail. Moving the
>> >> >> >> rail flexes these arms. It's a terrible design.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> FOG members say something like "Yeah, it's a terrible design and has
>> >> >> >> never been addressed but at least they make it more expensive every
>> >> >> >> year.".
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Leon?
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >No comment from me. I have a vague idea of what the MFT/3 is. A MDF table top with some size of mm holes drilled in it in a grid pattern. And you can use the newer Festool rails and track saw and maybe router on top of it. And expensive posts and other things fit into the mm holes. I never understood the appeal of it. Why not just use your table saw or miter saw to cut the wood? Or if using the track saw to cut the wood, just toss the wood onto a Styrofoam panel, lay the guide on top, and cut with the track saw.
>> >> >> I wasn't much interested until the Festool travlin' road show. They
>> >> >> were demonstrating some other tools, using the MFT. The setup is very
>> >> >> fast and they (of course) were making it look really good. I went
>> >> >> back Saturday to look closer without a bunch of Festool employees
>> >> >> standing around me. I was disappointed but could still be talked into
>> >> >> it by someone who uses one every day. There are just some things
>> >> >> about the rail mechanism (the MFT's bottom line) that didn't sit well.
>> >> >> It could have been so much more robust.
>> >> >> >Now, I will admit to creating my own MFT style table. I glued and screwed a set of 2x4s together to make a frame. Then have a piece of particleboard to sit on top. And some pipe sockets and pipes to make legs on the bottom. I can lay pieces of wood on top and straight line rip the edges with the track saw. Then feed the pieces into my table saw to rip to width. Its kind of an elevated Styrofoam panel so I don't have to crawl around on the floor.
>> >> >> I have a table with a sheet of MDF on a solid-core door, with edge
>> >> >> banding to hold the MDF from moving (it's just sitting there so can be
>> >> >> replaced easily). It's great for "ripping" panels down to size but not
>> >> >> so great at "cross-cutting".
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I plan on drilling dog holes in it but haven't decided on the US 3/4"
>> >> >> or European (Festool) 20mm holes. Since the table is so thick (2",
>> >> >> IIRC) passing the clamps from the bottom isn't going to work but
>> >> >> surface clamps will, which is always a problem.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Since I always work alone and really can't moose full sheets around
>> >> >> like I once did (particularly now) so the table saw isn't very
>> >> >> user-friendly. I'd like to use it just for ripping and small parts.
>> >> >> The MFT is set up to make short work of "cross-cutting" panels. If
>> >> >> it were a little better, it could put a miter saw out to pasture.
>> >> >
>> >> >Again, I have no direct experience with the MFT table. Just seen pictures of it and read lots of comments from devotees about how wonderous it is. But I can't figure out why its so wonderful. I already own a SCMS that crosscuts 12 inches. I guess I could put in stop blocks on one side and flip the piece over so it would then crosscut 24 inches. Maybe that would work OK. SCMS cost $500 lets say. I also own a table saw. Its old now. Delta Contractors saw. I can crosscut and rip with it pretty darn good. Now, I agree working with full plywood sheets is cumbersome. Best to use the track saw and a Styrofoam panel first to cut the plywood down to size. Or to straight line rip an edge on long boards. I probably have at least $1000 over the decades invested into the table saw. Track saw and rails are of course expensive too. But you have to have a track saw and rails to make the MFT work. So you have to buy a track saw no matter what. MFT by itself is $775. Comes with a
>> >> >42" rail. It can cut 42" by 27". So you still need to buy a new longer rail to even crosscut a 4' x 8' sheet of plywood on the floor before you can even put it on the MFT. And a long rail to rip the plywood on its 8 foot side. And in addition to the $775 base cost, you still "need" to buy all the extra doo-dads for several hundreds of extra dollars. So the MFT table is over $1000 before its in its wonderous state.
>> >> You can buy a second and cut 8' pieces. ;-)
>> >> >As I said, I already own a SCMS. Probably don't need that, but I already bought it. So not going to get rid of it. And I have a table saw that does everything the MFT does. For less money. And I own a track saw and rails. Which you have to buy to use the MFT, so that is a wash. What would a MFT do that I cannot already do now? And I can probably do everything better now too. And faster.
>> >> There are certain situations where neither the table saw or the track
>> >> saw seem to be the right tool. The piece is big enough that I really
>> >> don't want to use the table saw and setting the track up is a PITA for
>> >> one cut. I've been thinking about getting a short track and just do
>> >> that. I have enough track to build a railroad but nothing shorter
>> >> than 55". I could cut one down on a track saw. ;-) I just might.
>> >> >Now, I can understand the appeal of the MFT in certain situations. You are a traveling carpenter living in your van. And all of your cutting is done with the MFT. And you pull it out of the van and set it up on the grass to do all your work. Might make sense in that situation. Or maybe you are moving into the retirement home and you only have a 10' by 10' room as your shop. So you have to sell all your other tools first before moving in. And now you need something tiny to use in your new tiny shop. And you can carry the lightweight Styrofoam panel out onto the retirement home's center lawn when you need to cut a piece of plywood down to size. Before it can even fit on the MFT table inside your tiny shop.
>> >> No question they're great for installers. At 42#, hauling one around
>> >> would be easy. I didn't like the wobbly legs, either but this would
>> >> be an acceptable tradeoff for a mobile workstation. One of the
>> >> attendees at the Festool show said that he put a shelf across the
>> >> bottom rungs and it's fine. That defeats its purpose as a mobile saw
>> >> but solves the wobblies, apparently. They have a router MFT table too.
>> >> I *really* didn't like how wobbly it was. I know everything is
>> >> referenced to the top and movement doesn't matter to the cut but I
>> >> want to work on a solid bench.
>> >>
>> >> Leon has and MFT for his shop and loves it. I was hoping he was still
>> >> around to answer questions.
>> >
>> >
>> >I am probably the wrong person to comment in this thread. Since I do not own an MFT and have never used it. Kind of like you. But I look at it and think, I already own tools that can do what the MFT does, but easier than the MFT. So why would I want an MFT? Unless there is a real reason, such as the space aspect or portability aspect. If a woodworker already owns all the tools, then the MFT does not seem like a good replacement. If you are just starting out and have nothing, then maybe the MFT is a good starter that means you never need anything else. Maybe. But I don't think you are talking about that type of situation.
>> >
>> >As for shorter rails, I own an 800mm (31"). Not the holey one. Regular rail. I use it a little. But its not much more convenient than the 1400. And if you are cutting short things that fit the 800 rail, then they are about short enough to cut with the table saw or SCMS.
>> I often get into a situation where I have a long piece (8' for
>> argument's sake) that may be 2' wide that I want to cut cross-wise. A
>> 55" track is a pain because, while the bench I use will easily handle
>> it, the space around it gets cramped. It's too long to cut on the
>> table saw easily and the 55" rail gets to be a pain. Your 31" rail
>> might be a good alternative. That's pretty much what I'd use the MFT
>> for.
>>
>> The MFT is also really good at cutting sheets at an angle. I have to
>> admit, though, that I think I've only needed to do it once. I think it
>> would replace a SMCS, though like most here, I already have one
>> (three, actually).
>> >I like my Festool track saw. Its great. And great at many different cuts. But its bad at some cuts too. And the MFT seems to try to improve on the bad cuts. It probably helps. But there are other tools that are the very best for the bad track saw cuts. So why not just get the better other tool. Why try to improve on the track saw and get it just to mediocre. When you can get great with a different tool.
>> Do you have an example of these cuts and tools?
>
>For the bad at certain cuts, the track saw is not great at ripping to exact widths, or cutting small pieces. I know there are parallel guides to make the ripping to exact widths repeatable. And I suspect they work. Many different companies sell guides that fit onto twin slot guide rails to allow you to get repeatable width cuts. The MFT might also have something like this built in. As for cutting small parts, track saws just aren't really designed for that. If I had a 3" wide short board and wanted to rip it down to 2.5", and its only 18" long, a track saw would not be my choice. Such as the rails and stiles on face frames. But a table saw would do this easy. Or you are making bottoms out of plywood for drawers. You cut them all to 12" width. But turns out they need to be 11" and 15/16" width. It would take you a minute or two to rip them to final width on a table saw with a rip fence. But a half hour using a MFT. And if you had all your rails and stiles in rough
>lengths. Say 13" instead of the final 12", a miter saw would take care of everything in 30 seconds. Or spend a half hour monkeying on a MFT. Or trying to cross cut small or short pieces with a track saw is also not easy.

On 11/12/2022 2:57 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:

>
> I wouldn't use a track saw to rip boards. It's underpowered for most
> wood. Great for sheet goods, not so great on hardwood. That's the
> territory of 3HP table saws.

Not an issue with a TS 75. And remember the growling you hear when
cutting is the motor constantly adjusting to maintain a constant speed.

On 11/12/2022 1:30 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:

On 11/12/2022 1:30 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
> On Sat, 12 Nov 2022 09:19:19 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
> wrote:
>
>> On 11/11/2022 2:27 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
>>> On Fri, 11 Nov 2022 10:47:52 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 11/5/2022 7:56 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
>>>>> I was at Highland today taking a serious look at the MFT/3. I
must be
>>>>> missing something (so was the sales guy and the Festool Owner's
group)
>>>>> but that think is about as accurate as a dull axe. The rail hinge is
>>>>> just stamped steel, as is the pin it sits on. Before resting on the
>>>>> pin there is about 1/4" play in the rail. Even after it's sitting on
>>>>> the pin, there is about 1/16" play. How the hell can this thing be
>>>>> used for woodworking. Framing, maybe.
>>>>>
>>>>> Stamped steel hinges? It's worse than just a hinge. The "hinge" is
>>>>> two pins with about 1-1/2" steel arms to hold the rail. Moving the
>>>>> rail flexes these arms. It's a terrible design.
>>>>>
>>>>> FOG members say something like "Yeah, it's a terrible design and has
>>>>> never been addressed but at least they make it more expensive every
>>>>> year.".
>>>>>
>>>>> Leon?
>>>>
>>>> I suppose you are talking about the guide rail hinges. It works well
>>>> enough, you have an indexing spot on the opposite side from the hinge
>>>> that keeps the rail square and or stable. BUT it is a RPIA to set all
>>>> of that up every time I set up or take it down. So I seldom use it at
>>>> all in that capacity but I have the extra short guide rail. It
used to
>>>> be that the rail and miter and accessories were a $100 add on to the
>>>> MFT. The rail alone was worth more than that so I opted for the whole
>>>> set up 8~10 years ago.
>>>
>>> The hinge has a lot of play but even with the rail down on the index
>>> tang there is a 1/16" play in the rail. The index tang has to be moved
>>> for a different miter setting but there is a 1/4" play in the rail
>>> without resting on the index. So, how does the opposite side index get
>>> set?
>>>
>>> The rail miter gauge and everything is now a $200 option but it's
>>> still well worth it. I don't see the table being useful without it.
>>>
>>>
>>>> As for the MFT table, I use it all the time. Yet it wobbles but I do
>>>> not notice that. The clamping elements and hold down clamps, and
dogs
>>>> are constant use items. Great table for the Shaper Workstation.
>>>
>>> Hadn't though of that but I put some 1/4-20 threaded inserts in my
>>> workbench and use knurled brass screws to mount the workstation. When
>>> not in use the screws are recessed into the bench top so the threads
>>> stay clean. The bench is too thick to fish clamps from the bottom but
>>> it works otherwise. I plan on drilling 20mm holes in the top so I can
>>> use the Festool mounting parts.
>> On 11/11/2022 2:27 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
>>> On Fri, 11 Nov 2022 10:47:52 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 11/5/2022 7:56 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
>>>>> I was at Highland today taking a serious look at the MFT/3. I
must be
>>>>> missing something (so was the sales guy and the Festool Owner's
group)
>>>>> but that think is about as accurate as a dull axe. The rail hinge is
>>>>> just stamped steel, as is the pin it sits on. Before resting on the
>>>>> pin there is about 1/4" play in the rail. Even after it's sitting on
>>>>> the pin, there is about 1/16" play. How the hell can this thing be
>>>>> used for woodworking. Framing, maybe.
>>>>>
>>>>> Stamped steel hinges? It's worse than just a hinge. The "hinge" is
>>>>> two pins with about 1-1/2" steel arms to hold the rail. Moving the
>>>>> rail flexes these arms. It's a terrible design.
>>>>>
>>>>> FOG members say something like "Yeah, it's a terrible design and has
>>>>> never been addressed but at least they make it more expensive every
>>>>> year.".
>>>>>
>>>>> Leon?
>>>>
>>>> I suppose you are talking about the guide rail hinges. It works well
>>>> enough, you have an indexing spot on the opposite side from the hinge
>>>> that keeps the rail square and or stable. BUT it is a RPIA to set all
>>>> of that up every time I set up or take it down. So I seldom use it at
>>>> all in that capacity but I have the extra short guide rail. It
used to
>>>> be that the rail and miter and accessories were a $100 add on to the
>>>> MFT. The rail alone was worth more than that so I opted for the whole
>>>> set up 8~10 years ago.
>>>
>>> The hinge has a lot of play but even with the rail down on the index
>>> tang there is a 1/16" play in the rail. The index tang has to be moved
>>> for a different miter setting but there is a 1/4" play in the rail
>>> without resting on the index. So, how does the opposite side index get
>>> set?
>> I think most any type of hinge would have a lot of play if you are
>> holding the other end of the 42" track. I don't think anything is
>> going to be fool proof in this type set up.
>
> If it were cast, it would have a lot less. You can see the sheet
> metal bending when you put even very little side pressure on the
> track. In the 90-degree position the opposite side index reduces the
> play a lot. It wouldn't take much to make it better.
The cure is to NOT put pressure on the track when it is pivoted up and
off of the indexing pin. I assure you that even cast will flex.

>
>> The indexing support indexes against a stop that is placed and fixed
>> inside the MFT/3 side rail slot. You make that adjustment for that
>> piece. It is for resetting up the track to make 90 degree cuts if you
>> break the set up down after use. As for angles, I have never cut
>> angles on mine, the indexing pin on the support would be at an angle to
>> the slot in the track and I can see how there could be play. BUT even
>> Incra miter gauges and long extension fences have play. Keep in mind
>> that 1/4" play at the end of 42" may only equate to being 1/3 of a
>> degree.
>
> The miter gauge and fence looks like a pretty expensive part to never
> use. ;-0 Frankly, I've never used my track saw for angles either.
But all of those parts and the 42" track are $20 less expensive than
buying the 42" track alone by itself. I have cut angles with my track
saw and quite accurately simply by marking the panel and aligning the
track. The MFT/3 with the track/angle option would be better for
repeated cuts and cuts narrow enough to fit.

>
>> I know that 1/4" play seems pretty sloppy but you may not be
>> able to measure the degree result from one extreme to the next.
>
> I get 1/8 of a degree - point taken (if I didn't blow the arithmetic
> 1/2-degree per inch). With the indexing pin, it's more like 1/16", so
> completely irrelevant. Hard to believe that I didn't screw up the
> arithmetic. 30 * 2pi inches in the circumference, divided by 360
> equals 1/2 inch per degree. 1/4" = 1/8 degree. Seems a square is
> superfluous. ;-)
I simply drew it out on Sketchup. A 42" horizontal line and up 1/4" at
one end of the line and back to the beginning of the horizontal line.
Then measured the angle between the 2 lines.

>
>> If you
>> are looking for dead on accuracy consider just using the track aligned
>> with marks on the work, less the protractor, hinge, mounting hardware.
>> For the time and effort to break down the track saw set up I simply
>> don't use it in that capacity. But as I mentioned on another response
>> I do use the 42" track by it self quite often. And the track saw
>> option to the MFT/3 is less than buying the 42" rack alone.
>
> The option implies the table, though. The function is then $775.
Yes, the table alone is $675, add the 42"track/miter gauge option for
$100 more, $775.

On Mon, 14 Nov 2022 12:07:04 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:

>On 11/12/2022 2:57 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
>
>>
>> I wouldn't use a track saw to rip boards. It's underpowered for most
>> wood. Great for sheet goods, not so great on hardwood. That's the
>> territory of 3HP table saws.
>
>
>Not an issue with a TS 75. And remember the growling you hear when
>cutting is the motor constantly adjusting to maintain a constant speed.

I have the original ('10 maybe?) TS55. No, it noticeably struggles on
much more than 3/4" ply.

We discussed this at the time. The TS75 came with the 75" track,
which made it a somewhat better deal. I thought I'd only use it on
ply, so didn't see the point of the larger, heavier saw. I was right.
I've never been tempted to use it for anything else. It's not really
a carpentry tool. ;-)

On Mon, 14 Nov 2022 13:22:11 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:

>On 11/12/2022 1:30 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
>
>On 11/12/2022 1:30 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
>> On Sat, 12 Nov 2022 09:19:19 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 11/11/2022 2:27 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 11 Nov 2022 10:47:52 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 11/5/2022 7:56 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
>>>>>> I was at Highland today taking a serious look at the MFT/3. I
>must be
>>>>>> missing something (so was the sales guy and the Festool Owner's
>group)
>>>>>> but that think is about as accurate as a dull axe. The rail hinge is
>>>>>> just stamped steel, as is the pin it sits on. Before resting on the
>>>>>> pin there is about 1/4" play in the rail. Even after it's sitting on
>>>>>> the pin, there is about 1/16" play. How the hell can this thing be
>>>>>> used for woodworking. Framing, maybe.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Stamped steel hinges? It's worse than just a hinge. The "hinge" is
>>>>>> two pins with about 1-1/2" steel arms to hold the rail. Moving the
>>>>>> rail flexes these arms. It's a terrible design.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> FOG members say something like "Yeah, it's a terrible design and has
>>>>>> never been addressed but at least they make it more expensive every
>>>>>> year.".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Leon?
>>>>>
>>>>> I suppose you are talking about the guide rail hinges. It works well
>>>>> enough, you have an indexing spot on the opposite side from the hinge
>>>>> that keeps the rail square and or stable. BUT it is a RPIA to set all
>>>>> of that up every time I set up or take it down. So I seldom use it at
>>>>> all in that capacity but I have the extra short guide rail. It
>used to
>>>>> be that the rail and miter and accessories were a $100 add on to the
>>>>> MFT. The rail alone was worth more than that so I opted for the whole
>>>>> set up 8~10 years ago.
>>>>
>>>> The hinge has a lot of play but even with the rail down on the index
>>>> tang there is a 1/16" play in the rail. The index tang has to be moved
>>>> for a different miter setting but there is a 1/4" play in the rail
>>>> without resting on the index. So, how does the opposite side index get
>>>> set?
>>>>
>>>> The rail miter gauge and everything is now a $200 option but it's
>>>> still well worth it. I don't see the table being useful without it.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> As for the MFT table, I use it all the time. Yet it wobbles but I do
>>>>> not notice that. The clamping elements and hold down clamps, and
>dogs
>>>>> are constant use items. Great table for the Shaper Workstation.
>>>>
>>>> Hadn't though of that but I put some 1/4-20 threaded inserts in my
>>>> workbench and use knurled brass screws to mount the workstation. When
>>>> not in use the screws are recessed into the bench top so the threads
>>>> stay clean. The bench is too thick to fish clamps from the bottom but
>>>> it works otherwise. I plan on drilling 20mm holes in the top so I can
>>>> use the Festool mounting parts.
>>> On 11/11/2022 2:27 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 11 Nov 2022 10:47:52 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 11/5/2022 7:56 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
>>>>>> I was at Highland today taking a serious look at the MFT/3. I
>must be
>>>>>> missing something (so was the sales guy and the Festool Owner's
>group)
>>>>>> but that think is about as accurate as a dull axe. The rail hinge is
>>>>>> just stamped steel, as is the pin it sits on. Before resting on the
>>>>>> pin there is about 1/4" play in the rail. Even after it's sitting on
>>>>>> the pin, there is about 1/16" play. How the hell can this thing be
>>>>>> used for woodworking. Framing, maybe.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Stamped steel hinges? It's worse than just a hinge. The "hinge" is
>>>>>> two pins with about 1-1/2" steel arms to hold the rail. Moving the
>>>>>> rail flexes these arms. It's a terrible design.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> FOG members say something like "Yeah, it's a terrible design and has
>>>>>> never been addressed but at least they make it more expensive every
>>>>>> year.".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Leon?
>>>>>
>>>>> I suppose you are talking about the guide rail hinges. It works well
>>>>> enough, you have an indexing spot on the opposite side from the hinge
>>>>> that keeps the rail square and or stable. BUT it is a RPIA to set all
>>>>> of that up every time I set up or take it down. So I seldom use it at
>>>>> all in that capacity but I have the extra short guide rail. It
>used to
>>>>> be that the rail and miter and accessories were a $100 add on to the
>>>>> MFT. The rail alone was worth more than that so I opted for the whole
>>>>> set up 8~10 years ago.
>>>>
>>>> The hinge has a lot of play but even with the rail down on the index
>>>> tang there is a 1/16" play in the rail. The index tang has to be moved
>>>> for a different miter setting but there is a 1/4" play in the rail
>>>> without resting on the index. So, how does the opposite side index get
>>>> set?
>>> I think most any type of hinge would have a lot of play if you are
>>> holding the other end of the 42" track. I don't think anything is
>>> going to be fool proof in this type set up.
>>
>> If it were cast, it would have a lot less. You can see the sheet
>> metal bending when you put even very little side pressure on the
>> track. In the 90-degree position the opposite side index reduces the
>> play a lot. It wouldn't take much to make it better.
>The cure is to NOT put pressure on the track when it is pivoted up and
>off of the indexing pin. I assure you that even cast will flex.
>
It's not a matter of it flexing, rather there is no guarantee which
side of the line it'll come down on. It can be off ~1/16" from cut to
cut. That may not be much of an angle but it's not great for
cabinets, or whatever.
>>
>>> The indexing support indexes against a stop that is placed and fixed
>>> inside the MFT/3 side rail slot. You make that adjustment for that
>>> piece. It is for resetting up the track to make 90 degree cuts if you
>>> break the set up down after use. As for angles, I have never cut
>>> angles on mine, the indexing pin on the support would be at an angle to
>>> the slot in the track and I can see how there could be play. BUT even
>>> Incra miter gauges and long extension fences have play. Keep in mind
>>> that 1/4" play at the end of 42" may only equate to being 1/3 of a
>>> degree.
>>
>> The miter gauge and fence looks like a pretty expensive part to never
>> use. ;-0 Frankly, I've never used my track saw for angles either.
>But all of those parts and the 42" track are $20 less expensive than
>buying the 42" track alone by itself. I have cut angles with my track
>saw and quite accurately simply by marking the panel and aligning the
>track. The MFT/3 with the track/angle option would be better for
>repeated cuts and cuts narrow enough to fit.
>
If you buy the table, of course. It would be silly not to. I've even
seen YouTubes where people bought two of the full sets instead of one
of the basic and one full. There was an explanation for it but I
didn't spent time watching. I may be wrong, but an 8' MFT doesn't
thrill me much. I already have a table that works for lengthwise cuts.
>
>
>
>>
>>> I know that 1/4" play seems pretty sloppy but you may not be
>>> able to measure the degree result from one extreme to the next.
>>
>> I get 1/8 of a degree - point taken (if I didn't blow the arithmetic
>> 1/2-degree per inch). With the indexing pin, it's more like 1/16", so
>> completely irrelevant. Hard to believe that I didn't screw up the
>> arithmetic. 30 * 2pi inches in the circumference, divided by 360
>> equals 1/2 inch per degree. 1/4" = 1/8 degree. Seems a square is
>> superfluous. ;-)
>I simply drew it out on Sketchup. A 42" horizontal line and up 1/4" at
>one end of the line and back to the beginning of the horizontal line.
>Then measured the angle between the 2 lines.

On Mon, 14 Nov 2022 13:22:11 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:

>On 11/12/2022 1:30 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
>
>On 11/12/2022 1:30 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
>> On Sat, 12 Nov 2022 09:19:19 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 11/11/2022 2:27 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 11 Nov 2022 10:47:52 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 11/5/2022 7:56 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
>>>>>> I was at Highland today taking a serious look at the MFT/3. I
>must be
>>>>>> missing something (so was the sales guy and the Festool Owner's
>group)
>>>>>> but that think is about as accurate as a dull axe. The rail hinge is
>>>>>> just stamped steel, as is the pin it sits on. Before resting on the
>>>>>> pin there is about 1/4" play in the rail. Even after it's sitting on
>>>>>> the pin, there is about 1/16" play. How the hell can this thing be
>>>>>> used for woodworking. Framing, maybe.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Stamped steel hinges? It's worse than just a hinge. The "hinge" is
>>>>>> two pins with about 1-1/2" steel arms to hold the rail. Moving the
>>>>>> rail flexes these arms. It's a terrible design.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> FOG members say something like "Yeah, it's a terrible design and has
>>>>>> never been addressed but at least they make it more expensive every
>>>>>> year.".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Leon?
>>>>>
>>>>> I suppose you are talking about the guide rail hinges. It works well
>>>>> enough, you have an indexing spot on the opposite side from the hinge
>>>>> that keeps the rail square and or stable. BUT it is a RPIA to set all
>>>>> of that up every time I set up or take it down. So I seldom use it at
>>>>> all in that capacity but I have the extra short guide rail. It
>used to
>>>>> be that the rail and miter and accessories were a $100 add on to the
>>>>> MFT. The rail alone was worth more than that so I opted for the whole
>>>>> set up 8~10 years ago.
>>>>
>>>> The hinge has a lot of play but even with the rail down on the index
>>>> tang there is a 1/16" play in the rail. The index tang has to be moved
>>>> for a different miter setting but there is a 1/4" play in the rail
>>>> without resting on the index. So, how does the opposite side index get
>>>> set?
>>>>
>>>> The rail miter gauge and everything is now a $200 option but it's
>>>> still well worth it. I don't see the table being useful without it.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> As for the MFT table, I use it all the time. Yet it wobbles but I do
>>>>> not notice that. The clamping elements and hold down clamps, and
>dogs
>>>>> are constant use items. Great table for the Shaper Workstation.
>>>>
>>>> Hadn't though of that but I put some 1/4-20 threaded inserts in my
>>>> workbench and use knurled brass screws to mount the workstation. When
>>>> not in use the screws are recessed into the bench top so the threads
>>>> stay clean. The bench is too thick to fish clamps from the bottom but
>>>> it works otherwise. I plan on drilling 20mm holes in the top so I can
>>>> use the Festool mounting parts.
>>> On 11/11/2022 2:27 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 11 Nov 2022 10:47:52 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 11/5/2022 7:56 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
>>>>>> I was at Highland today taking a serious look at the MFT/3. I
>must be
>>>>>> missing something (so was the sales guy and the Festool Owner's
>group)
>>>>>> but that think is about as accurate as a dull axe. The rail hinge is
>>>>>> just stamped steel, as is the pin it sits on. Before resting on the
>>>>>> pin there is about 1/4" play in the rail. Even after it's sitting on
>>>>>> the pin, there is about 1/16" play. How the hell can this thing be
>>>>>> used for woodworking. Framing, maybe.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Stamped steel hinges? It's worse than just a hinge. The "hinge" is
>>>>>> two pins with about 1-1/2" steel arms to hold the rail. Moving the
>>>>>> rail flexes these arms. It's a terrible design.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> FOG members say something like "Yeah, it's a terrible design and has
>>>>>> never been addressed but at least they make it more expensive every
>>>>>> year.".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Leon?
>>>>>
>>>>> I suppose you are talking about the guide rail hinges. It works well
>>>>> enough, you have an indexing spot on the opposite side from the hinge
>>>>> that keeps the rail square and or stable. BUT it is a RPIA to set all
>>>>> of that up every time I set up or take it down. So I seldom use it at
>>>>> all in that capacity but I have the extra short guide rail. It
>used to
>>>>> be that the rail and miter and accessories were a $100 add on to the
>>>>> MFT. The rail alone was worth more than that so I opted for the whole
>>>>> set up 8~10 years ago.
>>>>
>>>> The hinge has a lot of play but even with the rail down on the index
>>>> tang there is a 1/16" play in the rail. The index tang has to be moved
>>>> for a different miter setting but there is a 1/4" play in the rail
>>>> without resting on the index. So, how does the opposite side index get
>>>> set?
>>> I think most any type of hinge would have a lot of play if you are
>>> holding the other end of the 42" track. I don't think anything is
>>> going to be fool proof in this type set up.
>>
>> If it were cast, it would have a lot less. You can see the sheet
>> metal bending when you put even very little side pressure on the
>> track. In the 90-degree position the opposite side index reduces the
>> play a lot. It wouldn't take much to make it better.
>The cure is to NOT put pressure on the track when it is pivoted up and
>off of the indexing pin. I assure you that even cast will flex.
>
I did some playing tonight, thinking about this some more. Miter
gauges have some slop in them but, at least the one I was playing with
is steel (Incra 1000HD). OTOH, my TS fence doesn't flex at all. I
would have thought the track would be similar but there isn't pressure
on it that there is a TS fence.

The other question I answered for myself was the position of the track
indexing support. I just realized that there is no reason to move
this, or the track. In fact, I remember the Festool rep saying that
many people route a slot and embed a strip of HDPE. When it gets too
cut up, just replace the strip. It's obvious that the rail would have
to be fixed for this to work.

On 11/15/2022 8:56 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
> On Mon, 14 Nov 2022 13:22:11 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
> wrote:
>
>> On 11/12/2022 1:30 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
>>
>> On 11/12/2022 1:30 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
>>> On Sat, 12 Nov 2022 09:19:19 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 11/11/2022 2:27 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
>>>>> On Fri, 11 Nov 2022 10:47:52 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 11/5/2022 7:56 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
>>>>>>> I was at Highland today taking a serious look at the MFT/3. I
>> must be
>>>>>>> missing something (so was the sales guy and the Festool Owner's
>> group)
>>>>>>> but that think is about as accurate as a dull axe. The rail hinge is
>>>>>>> just stamped steel, as is the pin it sits on. Before resting on the
>>>>>>> pin there is about 1/4" play in the rail. Even after it's sitting on
>>>>>>> the pin, there is about 1/16" play. How the hell can this thing be
>>>>>>> used for woodworking. Framing, maybe.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Stamped steel hinges? It's worse than just a hinge. The "hinge" is
>>>>>>> two pins with about 1-1/2" steel arms to hold the rail. Moving the
>>>>>>> rail flexes these arms. It's a terrible design.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> FOG members say something like "Yeah, it's a terrible design and has
>>>>>>> never been addressed but at least they make it more expensive every
>>>>>>> year.".
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Leon?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I suppose you are talking about the guide rail hinges. It works well
>>>>>> enough, you have an indexing spot on the opposite side from the hinge
>>>>>> that keeps the rail square and or stable. BUT it is a RPIA to set all
>>>>>> of that up every time I set up or take it down. So I seldom use it at
>>>>>> all in that capacity but I have the extra short guide rail. It
>> used to
>>>>>> be that the rail and miter and accessories were a $100 add on to the
>>>>>> MFT. The rail alone was worth more than that so I opted for the whole
>>>>>> set up 8~10 years ago.
>>>>>
>>>>> The hinge has a lot of play but even with the rail down on the index
>>>>> tang there is a 1/16" play in the rail. The index tang has to be moved
>>>>> for a different miter setting but there is a 1/4" play in the rail
>>>>> without resting on the index. So, how does the opposite side index get
>>>>> set?
>>>>>
>>>>> The rail miter gauge and everything is now a $200 option but it's
>>>>> still well worth it. I don't see the table being useful without it.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> As for the MFT table, I use it all the time. Yet it wobbles but I do
>>>>>> not notice that. The clamping elements and hold down clamps, and
>> dogs
>>>>>> are constant use items. Great table for the Shaper Workstation.
>>>>>
>>>>> Hadn't though of that but I put some 1/4-20 threaded inserts in my
>>>>> workbench and use knurled brass screws to mount the workstation. When
>>>>> not in use the screws are recessed into the bench top so the threads
>>>>> stay clean. The bench is too thick to fish clamps from the bottom but
>>>>> it works otherwise. I plan on drilling 20mm holes in the top so I can
>>>>> use the Festool mounting parts.
>>>> On 11/11/2022 2:27 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
>>>>> On Fri, 11 Nov 2022 10:47:52 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 11/5/2022 7:56 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
>>>>>>> I was at Highland today taking a serious look at the MFT/3. I
>> must be
>>>>>>> missing something (so was the sales guy and the Festool Owner's
>> group)
>>>>>>> but that think is about as accurate as a dull axe. The rail hinge is
>>>>>>> just stamped steel, as is the pin it sits on. Before resting on the
>>>>>>> pin there is about 1/4" play in the rail. Even after it's sitting on
>>>>>>> the pin, there is about 1/16" play. How the hell can this thing be
>>>>>>> used for woodworking. Framing, maybe.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Stamped steel hinges? It's worse than just a hinge. The "hinge" is
>>>>>>> two pins with about 1-1/2" steel arms to hold the rail. Moving the
>>>>>>> rail flexes these arms. It's a terrible design.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> FOG members say something like "Yeah, it's a terrible design and has
>>>>>>> never been addressed but at least they make it more expensive every
>>>>>>> year.".
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Leon?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I suppose you are talking about the guide rail hinges. It works well
>>>>>> enough, you have an indexing spot on the opposite side from the hinge
>>>>>> that keeps the rail square and or stable. BUT it is a RPIA to set all
>>>>>> of that up every time I set up or take it down. So I seldom use it at
>>>>>> all in that capacity but I have the extra short guide rail. It
>> used to
>>>>>> be that the rail and miter and accessories were a $100 add on to the
>>>>>> MFT. The rail alone was worth more than that so I opted for the whole
>>>>>> set up 8~10 years ago.
>>>>>
>>>>> The hinge has a lot of play but even with the rail down on the index
>>>>> tang there is a 1/16" play in the rail. The index tang has to be moved
>>>>> for a different miter setting but there is a 1/4" play in the rail
>>>>> without resting on the index. So, how does the opposite side index get
>>>>> set?
>>>> I think most any type of hinge would have a lot of play if you are
>>>> holding the other end of the 42" track. I don't think anything is
>>>> going to be fool proof in this type set up.
>>>
>>> If it were cast, it would have a lot less. You can see the sheet
>>> metal bending when you put even very little side pressure on the
>>> track. In the 90-degree position the opposite side index reduces the
>>> play a lot. It wouldn't take much to make it better.
>> The cure is to NOT put pressure on the track when it is pivoted up and
>> off of the indexing pin. I assure you that even cast will flex.
>>
> I did some playing tonight, thinking about this some more. Miter
> gauges have some slop in them but, at least the one I was playing with
> is steel (Incra 1000HD). OTOH, my TS fence doesn't flex at all. I
> would have thought the track would be similar but there isn't pressure
> on it that there is a TS fence.
>
> The other question I answered for myself was the position of the track
> indexing support. I just realized that there is no reason to move
> this, or the track. In fact, I remember the Festool rep saying that
> many people route a slot and embed a strip of HDPE. When it gets too
> cut up, just replace the strip. It's obvious that the rail would have
> to be fixed for this to work.
>
LOL. We do tend to over think things, don't we. ;~)
If the fence was changing angles that would be one thing but it is
simply adjusting up and down for the thickness of the stock and pivoting
up and down to ease insertion and removal of the stock to be cut. And
properly adjusted for the thickness of the stock. The track rubber
bottom strips are plenty to keep it from flexing or shifting when
cutting, but you do have the added hinge side and indexing side to help
realign after lifting and lowering the track.

I will warn you again however.....
Unless I am working on a project my MFT/3 is folded up and sitting on
its side. You have to remove the track and replace it. That is a bit
if a PIA. BUT if you leave the MFT/3 up all of the time, this is not
an issue.
I have a Paulk style work bench with a foot print. set up, of about
40"x96". It gets put away if I am not working on a job. And on small
jobs I may not pull it our at all, although set up is about 2~3 minutes.
That is where the MFT/3 comes in handy. It is smaller and set up,
bring it out, unfold the legs, and put it on its feet takes about a
minute. Plus it is a good size for the Shaper Workstation, mortising
with the Domino, and sanding. I also use it along with dogs and clamps
to hold drawers in place while I attach the drawer side of the slides.
IMHO the MFT/3 is worth the price since it gets used with every job,
even with out using the track saw on it.