danny burstein wrote:

> In <66134364$0$1643519$882e4bbb@reader.netnews.com> Ed P
> <esp@snet.xxx> writes:
>
> [snip]
> > In my last house, built in 1978, had 20A both kitchen and dining
> > room. That does not mean it was a good idea though.
>
> > I had an 18,000BTU window air conditioner in the dining room. You
> > could not run the AC and make toast in the kitchen though. Nine
> > moths of the year is was OK. Both plugs on the same circuit. I
> > could probably have moved the toaster.
>
> You needed one of these! Note, they're discontinued
> but sometimes show up. They're perfectly matched
> for this type of issue.
>
>
https://www.compactappliance.com/ac-3-microwave-refrigerator-combo-avanti-amp-overload-protector/AC-3.html

Looks nifty to have for an RV.

On 4/7/2024 9:35 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
> On 4/8/2024 12:10 AM, Bob F wrote:
>> On 4/7/2024 3:16 PM, micky wrote:
>>> In alt.home.repair, on Sun, 7 Apr 2024 17:00:42 -0600, bud--
>>> <null@void.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 4/7/2024 9:36 AM, Ed P wrote:
>>>>> On 4/7/2024 10:36 AM, cshenk wrote:
>>>>>> bud-- wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 4/5/2024 6:10 PM, Xeno wrote:
>>>>>> I was taught the 15amps were lighting and the others are 20.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> You were taught a good way, but that is not code.  Bathroom and
>>>>> kitchen
>>>>> are the only places it is required to be 20A.
>>>>
>>>> Also laundry. Bathroom is the most recent addition. Kitchen includes
>>>> some other areas like dining room.
>>>
>>> Don't tell me people blow-dry their hair in the laundry room.  Now that
>>> is sick.
>>
>> I wash my hair in the laundry tub. Sure beats a bathroom sink.
>>
>
> I sent my hair to the laundry to get washed a few years ago.  Has not
> come back yet.

That sucks! I have not had that problem.

bud-- <null@void.com> writes:
>On 4/7/2024 9:36 AM, Ed P wrote:
>> On 4/7/2024 10:36 AM, cshenk wrote:
>>> bud-- wrote:
>>>

>> You can have 10 outlets but should be a max of 1250W on a 15A circuit.
>
>Residential doesn't have a limit on the number of receptacles per
>circuit but the load, based generally on area, should be distributed
>among the general use circuits, which can be 15 or 20A.
>
>Duplex 15A receptacles can be placed on 20A circuits, and are rated 20A
>total from both sides and 20A wired in and wire out downstream.
>
>I don't know where 1250 comes from.

80% of 15A.

On 4/8/2024 11:36 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> bud-- <null@void.com> writes:
>> On 4/7/2024 9:36 AM, Ed P wrote:
>>> On 4/7/2024 10:36 AM, cshenk wrote:
>>>> bud-- wrote:
>>>>
>
>>> You can have 10 outlets but should be a max of 1250W on a 15A circuit.
>>
>> Residential doesn't have a limit on the number of receptacles per
>> circuit but the load, based generally on area, should be distributed
>> among the general use circuits, which can be 15 or 20A.
>>
>> Duplex 15A receptacles can be placed on 20A circuits, and are rated 20A
>> total from both sides and 20A wired in and wire out downstream.
>>
>> I don't know where 1250 comes from.
>
> 80% of 15A.
>

15 x 120 x 0.8 = 1440W ?

1250 is close to 1A each for 10 receptacles.
Going from memory, commercial receptacles count as 1.5A. Maybe?
But not for residential.

In alt.home.repair, on Sun, 7 Apr 2024 17:54:44 -0500, Mark Lloyd
<not.email@all.invalid> wrote:

>On 4/7/24 17:14, micky wrote:
>
>[snip]
>
>>> Also allowed use oif "dirt cheap" (like $0.49) "contractor grade" 15
>>> amp outlets (until the tamper-proof outlets became required by code)
>>
>> TAmper-proof?
>
>That probably means "hard to use", like it does with some bottles
>including the kind where the real cap is hidden under a fake cap that
>feels like it is ALWAYS loose.

Oh, yeah. You can break off the outer cap sometimes.

On Sun, 07 Apr 2024 18:14:38 -0400, micky <NONONOmisc07@fmguy.com>
wrote:

>In alt.home.repair, on Sun, 07 Apr 2024 17:01:12 -0400, Clare Snyder
><clare@snyder.on.ca> wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 7 Apr 2024 11:36:48 -0400, Ed P <esp@snet.xxx> wrote:
>>
>>>On 4/7/2024 10:36 AM, cshenk wrote:
>>>> I was taught the 15amps were lighting and the others are 20.
>>>
>>>
>>>You were taught a good way, but that is not code. Bathroom and kitchen
>>>are the only places it is required to be 20A.
>>>
>>>You can have 10 outlets but should be a max of 1250W on a 15A circuit.
>>>
>>>15A allows the builder to cheap out and use 14ga instead of 12ga wire.
>>
>> Also allowed use oif "dirt cheap" (like $0.49) "contractor grade" 15
>>amp outlets (until the tamper-proof outlets became required by code)
>
>TAmper-proof?
They make it really hard for kids to stick things in

On Sun, 07 Apr 2024 23:29:13 -0500, Jim Joyce <none@none.invalid>
wrote:

>On Sun, 7 Apr 2024 18:24:28 -0400, Ralph Mowery <rmowery42@charter.net> wrote:
>
>>In article <6612bd90$0$1082206$882e4bbb@reader.netnews.com>,
>>esp@snet.xxx says...
>>>
>>> You were taught a good way, but that is not code. Bathroom and kitchen
>>> are the only places it is required to be 20A.
>>>
>>> You can have 10 outlets but should be a max of 1250W on a 15A circuit.
>>>
>>> 15A allows the builder to cheap out and use 14ga instead of 12ga wire.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>Not sure but think the NEC was just changed to allow even lower amps for
>>the lights so that # 16 wire could be used as newer lights are mostly
>>LED and need lots less amps for the same light.
>
>Looks like 16ga has a blue jacket, as opposed to white for 14ga and yellow for
>20ga. I've never seen 16ga out in the wild but I guess it makes sense.
>
>The guys who built my house wouldn't have been able to use it, however, since
>each room's lights and receptacles are on a single circuit, for the most part.
Most electricians would rather use one size wire for as much as
possible so they only need to carry 2 or 3 wire sizes - 14 for normal
circuits. 12 for 20 amp, and stove/dryer cable

On Tue, 09 Apr 2024 01:23:47 -0400, Clare Snyder <clare@snyder.on.ca> wrote:

>On Sun, 07 Apr 2024 23:29:13 -0500, Jim Joyce <none@none.invalid>
>wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 7 Apr 2024 18:24:28 -0400, Ralph Mowery <rmowery42@charter.net> wrote:
>>
>>>In article <6612bd90$0$1082206$882e4bbb@reader.netnews.com>,
>>>esp@snet.xxx says...
>>>>
>>>> You were taught a good way, but that is not code. Bathroom and kitchen
>>>> are the only places it is required to be 20A.
>>>>
>>>> You can have 10 outlets but should be a max of 1250W on a 15A circuit.
>>>>
>>>> 15A allows the builder to cheap out and use 14ga instead of 12ga wire.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>Not sure but think the NEC was just changed to allow even lower amps for
>>>the lights so that # 16 wire could be used as newer lights are mostly
>>>LED and need lots less amps for the same light.
>>
>>Looks like 16ga has a blue jacket, as opposed to white for 14ga and yellow for
>>20ga. I've never seen 16ga out in the wild but I guess it makes sense.
>>
>>The guys who built my house wouldn't have been able to use it, however, since
>>each room's lights and receptacles are on a single circuit, for the most part.
> Most electricians would rather use one size wire for as much as
>possible so they only need to carry 2 or 3 wire sizes - 14 for normal
>circuits. 12 for 20 amp, and stove/dryer cable

My build crew was one step lazier - there's no 14ga in this house.

On Mon, 08 Apr 2024 23:20:52 -0400, micky <NONONOmisc07@fmguy.com> wrote:

>In alt.home.repair, on Sun, 7 Apr 2024 17:54:44 -0500, Mark Lloyd
><not.email@all.invalid> wrote:
>
>>On 4/7/24 17:14, micky wrote:
>>
>>[snip]
>>
>>>> Also allowed use oif "dirt cheap" (like $0.49) "contractor grade" 15
>>>> amp outlets (until the tamper-proof outlets became required by code)
>>>
>>> TAmper-proof?
>>
>>That probably means "hard to use", like it does with some bottles
>>including the kind where the real cap is hidden under a fake cap that
>>feels like it is ALWAYS loose.
>
>Oh, yeah. You can break off the outer cap sometimes.

Sometimes I remove the outer cap, but other times I just drop a few drops of
super glue between the two caps. Both ways work well.

On Mon, 08 Apr 2024 00:02:08 -0500, Jim Joyce <none@none.invalid>
wrote:

>On Sun, 7 Apr 2024 22:52:08 -0600, bud-- <null@void.com> wrote:
>
>>On 4/7/2024 7:22 PM, bud-- wrote:
>>> On 4/7/2024 4:54 PM, Mark Lloyd wrote:
>>>> On 4/7/24 17:14, micky wrote:
>>>>
>>>> [snip]
>>>>
>>>>>> Also allowed use oif "dirt cheap" (like $0.49) "contractor grade" 15
>>>>>> amp outlets (until the tamper-proof outlets became required by code)
>>>>>
>>>>> TAmper-proof?
>>>>
>>>> That probably means "hard to use", like it does with some bottles
>>>> including the kind where the real cap is hidden under a fake cap that
>>>> feels like it is ALWAYS loose.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Or child-proof. Required in many locations, including replacement
>>> receptacles for those locations. There are shutters where the blades go
>>> in so kids can't push in something like a paper clip. Push both shutters
>>> and they open for a plug.
>>>
>>
>>The NEC generally just covers new work. There has been a requirement
>>for about 15 years that is, in effect, a retroactive requirement. When
>>receptacles are replaced, the replacement must meet the requirements for
>>a new receptacle at that location - replacement receptacles may have to be:
>> tamper-resistant (child proof - easy to provide)
>> corrosion resistance (outside, easy to provide)
>
>Those receptacles are marked WR, right? I just installed a couple of outside
>receptacles that were marked TR WR (tamper resistant, weather resistant), with
>the GFCI function being provided by the breaker.
>
>
>> GFCI (receptacle or upstream protection)
>> AFCI (receptacle or upstream protection)
>> Some residential receptacles require GFCI + AFCI + tamper-resistant.
>>
>>Tamper-resistant appears to be required for almost all residential 120V
>>15 & 20A receptacles.
>>
>>I am confident everyone here has been using the correct receptacle when
>>they replace one.
>
>For sure.

Good friend is having her kitchen redone. Has "edison" circuit splits
on countertop. Being a StabLok panel 2 pole GFCI breakers run about
$300 up here in Canada so we will have to double up the box and
install 2 duplex GFCI outlets in each location. Will be installing
Dead-Face GFCI outlets "in series" with the separate circuits for
refrigerator, OTR Microwave, and dish washer - at the panel - because
single 15 amp StabLok breakers are almost $100 each - dead-faces are
about $25.

On Mon, 08 Apr 2024 04:21:32 -0500, Jim Joyce <none@none.invalid>
wrote:

>On Mon, 08 Apr 2024 01:04:01 -0400, micky <NONONOmisc07@fmguy.com> wrote:
>
>>In alt.home.repair, on Sun, 07 Apr 2024 23:50:50 -0500, Jim Joyce
>><none@none.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>>On 07 Apr 2024 08:54:16 GMT, Cindy Hamilton <hamilton@invalid.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On 2024-04-07, micky <NONONOmisc07@fmguy.com> wrote:
>>>>> Even though I play the piano fairly well, because the two are unrelated.
>>>>
>>>>Good thing you don't play the trombone, or any other instrument that
>>>>requires you to produce the desired pitch yourself.
>>>>
>>>>All these years later, I can still hear A 440 Hz in my head from
>>>>tuning up in high school band.
>>>
>>>Same here. All these years later I hear a constant tone, but they call it
>>>tinnitus and blame it on my many years of working around running jet engines.
>>
>>I have that too, in one ear. Sounds like water running in a pipe.
>>Didn't notice it until I was 45 or 50 and I went to Mammoth Cave in
>>Kentucky. Part of the tour they make everyone be quiet so they can hear
>>what quiet is like, and that's when I noticed it wasn't quiet in one
>>ear, but I'm sure I've had it since I was 10 or 20 years old. One
>>summer job when I was about 20 for a couple weeks with a jack hammer in
>>a steel dome, but the hammer only was used for a minute or two every 20
>>minutes. I don't think that could have done it.
>>
>>It was constant volume for years, but then got twice as loud, half as
>>loud, and back to "normal" most of the time. I don't like it but it
>>doesn't bother me much. I ignore it. Some people I hear have tinnitus
>>so bad it drives them crazy.
>
>Mine doesn't drive me crazy, AFAIK, but it's always with me.
I hear mine without my hearing aids - with hearing aids virtually
not.

In alt.home.repair, on Tue, 09 Apr 2024 01:33:12 -0400, Clare Snyder
<clare@snyder.on.ca> wrote:

>On Mon, 08 Apr 2024 04:21:32 -0500, Jim Joyce <none@none.invalid>
>wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 08 Apr 2024 01:04:01 -0400, micky <NONONOmisc07@fmguy.com> wrote:
>>
>>>In alt.home.repair, on Sun, 07 Apr 2024 23:50:50 -0500, Jim Joyce
>>><none@none.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On 07 Apr 2024 08:54:16 GMT, Cindy Hamilton <hamilton@invalid.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On 2024-04-07, micky <NONONOmisc07@fmguy.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Even though I play the piano fairly well, because the two are unrelated.
>>>>>
>>>>>Good thing you don't play the trombone, or any other instrument that
>>>>>requires you to produce the desired pitch yourself.
>>>>>
>>>>>All these years later, I can still hear A 440 Hz in my head from
>>>>>tuning up in high school band.
>>>>
>>>>Same here. All these years later I hear a constant tone, but they call it
>>>>tinnitus and blame it on my many years of working around running jet engines.
>>>
>>>I have that too, in one ear. Sounds like water running in a pipe.
>>>Didn't notice it until I was 45 or 50 and I went to Mammoth Cave in
>>>Kentucky. Part of the tour they make everyone be quiet so they can hear
>>>what quiet is like, and that's when I noticed it wasn't quiet in one
>>>ear, but I'm sure I've had it since I was 10 or 20 years old. One
>>>summer job when I was about 20 for a couple weeks with a jack hammer in
>>>a steel dome, but the hammer only was used for a minute or two every 20
>>>minutes. I don't think that could have done it.
>>>
>>>It was constant volume for years, but then got twice as loud, half as
>>>loud, and back to "normal" most of the time. I don't like it but it
>>>doesn't bother me much. I ignore it. Some people I hear have tinnitus
>>>so bad it drives them crazy.
>>
>>Mine doesn't drive me crazy, AFAIK, but it's always with me.

> I hear mine without my hearing aids - with hearing aids virtually
>not.

vERY interesting. I read about a hearing aid that covered up single
tone tinnitus, so for the first time I went to see a hearing aid
company. She told me that, Yes, it worked for single tones, but what I
had was not that. As I said before, it's the sound of water running in
a pipe, shhhhhhhhhhhhh, and she said that was a composite tone, and it
wouldn't work. Surely if it would have she'd have been happy to sell me
something, but maybe your experience is different. Should I try
again, another company?

On Tue, 09 Apr 2024 01:31:00 -0400, Clare Snyder <clare@snyder.on.ca> wrote:

>On Mon, 08 Apr 2024 00:02:08 -0500, Jim Joyce <none@none.invalid>
>wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 7 Apr 2024 22:52:08 -0600, bud-- <null@void.com> wrote:
>>
>>>On 4/7/2024 7:22 PM, bud-- wrote:
>>>> On 4/7/2024 4:54 PM, Mark Lloyd wrote:
>>>>> On 4/7/24 17:14, micky wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> [snip]
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Also allowed use oif "dirt cheap" (like $0.49) "contractor grade" 15
>>>>>>> amp outlets (until the tamper-proof outlets became required by code)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> TAmper-proof?
>>>>>
>>>>> That probably means "hard to use", like it does with some bottles
>>>>> including the kind where the real cap is hidden under a fake cap that
>>>>> feels like it is ALWAYS loose.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Or child-proof. Required in many locations, including replacement
>>>> receptacles for those locations. There are shutters where the blades go
>>>> in so kids can't push in something like a paper clip. Push both shutters
>>>> and they open for a plug.
>>>>
>>>
>>>The NEC generally just covers new work. There has been a requirement
>>>for about 15 years that is, in effect, a retroactive requirement. When
>>>receptacles are replaced, the replacement must meet the requirements for
>>>a new receptacle at that location - replacement receptacles may have to be:
>>> tamper-resistant (child proof - easy to provide)
>>> corrosion resistance (outside, easy to provide)
>>
>>Those receptacles are marked WR, right? I just installed a couple of outside
>>receptacles that were marked TR WR (tamper resistant, weather resistant), with
>>the GFCI function being provided by the breaker.
>>
>>
>>> GFCI (receptacle or upstream protection)
>>> AFCI (receptacle or upstream protection)
>>> Some residential receptacles require GFCI + AFCI + tamper-resistant.
>>>
>>>Tamper-resistant appears to be required for almost all residential 120V
>>>15 & 20A receptacles.
>>>
>>>I am confident everyone here has been using the correct receptacle when
>>>they replace one.
>>
>>For sure.
>
> Good friend is having her kitchen redone. Has "edison" circuit splits
>on countertop. Being a StabLok panel 2 pole GFCI breakers run about
>$300 up here in Canada so we will have to double up the box and
>install 2 duplex GFCI outlets in each location. Will be installing
>Dead-Face GFCI outlets "in series" with the separate circuits for
>refrigerator, OTR Microwave, and dish washer - at the panel - because
>single 15 amp StabLok breakers are almost $100 each - dead-faces are
>about $25.

Those sound like some fancy breakers.

On 4/9/2024 1:15 AM, Clare Snyder wrote:
> On Sun, 07 Apr 2024 18:14:38 -0400, micky <NONONOmisc07@fmguy.com>
> wrote:
>
>> In alt.home.repair, on Sun, 07 Apr 2024 17:01:12 -0400, Clare Snyder
>> <clare@snyder.on.ca> wrote:
>>
>>> On Sun, 7 Apr 2024 11:36:48 -0400, Ed P <esp@snet.xxx> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 4/7/2024 10:36 AM, cshenk wrote:
>>>>> I was taught the 15amps were lighting and the others are 20.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> You were taught a good way, but that is not code. Bathroom and kitchen
>>>> are the only places it is required to be 20A.
>>>>
>>>> You can have 10 outlets but should be a max of 1250W on a 15A circuit.
>>>>
>>>> 15A allows the builder to cheap out and use 14ga instead of 12ga wire.
>>>
>>> Also allowed use oif "dirt cheap" (like $0.49) "contractor grade" 15
>>> amp outlets (until the tamper-proof outlets became required by code)
>>
>> TAmper-proof?
> They make it really hard for kids to stick things in

So did some girls I dated.

[snip]

> Sometimes I remove the outer cap, but other times I just drop a few drops of
> super glue between the two caps. Both ways work well.

I didn't know about using super glue. That could be easier. Thanks.

--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"I think I'll believe in Gosh instead of God. If you don't believe in
Gosh too, you'll be darned to heck."

[snip]

> Most electricians would rather use one size wire for as much as
> possible so they only need to carry 2 or 3 wire sizes - 14 for normal
> circuits. 12 for 20 amp, and stove/dryer cable

That might explain why this house built in 1969 has no 15A circuits. All
240V circuits are 30A (except the 50A for central A/C).

--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"I think I'll believe in Gosh instead of God. If you don't believe in
Gosh too, you'll be darned to heck."

On Tue, 09 Apr 2024 00:29:00 -0500, Jim Joyce <none@none.invalid>
wrote:

>On Tue, 09 Apr 2024 01:23:47 -0400, Clare Snyder <clare@snyder.on.ca> wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 07 Apr 2024 23:29:13 -0500, Jim Joyce <none@none.invalid>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>On Sun, 7 Apr 2024 18:24:28 -0400, Ralph Mowery <rmowery42@charter.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>>In article <6612bd90$0$1082206$882e4bbb@reader.netnews.com>,
>>>>esp@snet.xxx says...
>>>>>
>>>>> You were taught a good way, but that is not code. Bathroom and kitchen
>>>>> are the only places it is required to be 20A.
>>>>>
>>>>> You can have 10 outlets but should be a max of 1250W on a 15A circuit.
>>>>>
>>>>> 15A allows the builder to cheap out and use 14ga instead of 12ga wire.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Not sure but think the NEC was just changed to allow even lower amps for
>>>>the lights so that # 16 wire could be used as newer lights are mostly
>>>>LED and need lots less amps for the same light.
>>>
>>>Looks like 16ga has a blue jacket, as opposed to white for 14ga and yellow for
>>>20ga. I've never seen 16ga out in the wild but I guess it makes sense.
>>>
>>>The guys who built my house wouldn't have been able to use it, however, since
>>>each room's lights and receptacles are on a single circuit, for the most part.
>> Most electricians would rather use one size wire for as much as
>>possible so they only need to carry 2 or 3 wire sizes - 14 for normal
>>circuits. 12 for 20 amp, and stove/dryer cable
>
>My build crew was one step lazier - there's no 14ga in this house.
Must have gotten a good deal on #12 - - -

On Tue, 09 Apr 2024 01:22:34 -0500, Jim Joyce <none@none.invalid>
wrote:

>On Tue, 09 Apr 2024 01:31:00 -0400, Clare Snyder <clare@snyder.on.ca> wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 08 Apr 2024 00:02:08 -0500, Jim Joyce <none@none.invalid>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>On Sun, 7 Apr 2024 22:52:08 -0600, bud-- <null@void.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On 4/7/2024 7:22 PM, bud-- wrote:
>>>>> On 4/7/2024 4:54 PM, Mark Lloyd wrote:
>>>>>> On 4/7/24 17:14, micky wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [snip]
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Also allowed use oif "dirt cheap" (like $0.49) "contractor grade" 15
>>>>>>>> amp outlets (until the tamper-proof outlets became required by code)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> TAmper-proof?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That probably means "hard to use", like it does with some bottles
>>>>>> including the kind where the real cap is hidden under a fake cap that
>>>>>> feels like it is ALWAYS loose.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Or child-proof. Required in many locations, including replacement
>>>>> receptacles for those locations. There are shutters where the blades go
>>>>> in so kids can't push in something like a paper clip. Push both shutters
>>>>> and they open for a plug.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>The NEC generally just covers new work. There has been a requirement
>>>>for about 15 years that is, in effect, a retroactive requirement. When
>>>>receptacles are replaced, the replacement must meet the requirements for
>>>>a new receptacle at that location - replacement receptacles may have to be:
>>>> tamper-resistant (child proof - easy to provide)
>>>> corrosion resistance (outside, easy to provide)
>>>
>>>Those receptacles are marked WR, right? I just installed a couple of outside
>>>receptacles that were marked TR WR (tamper resistant, weather resistant), with
>>>the GFCI function being provided by the breaker.
>>>
>>>
>>>> GFCI (receptacle or upstream protection)
>>>> AFCI (receptacle or upstream protection)
>>>> Some residential receptacles require GFCI + AFCI + tamper-resistant.
>>>>
>>>>Tamper-resistant appears to be required for almost all residential 120V
>>>>15 & 20A receptacles.
>>>>
>>>>I am confident everyone here has been using the correct receptacle when
>>>>they replace one.
>>>
>>>For sure.
>>
>> Good friend is having her kitchen redone. Has "edison" circuit splits
>>on countertop. Being a StabLok panel 2 pole GFCI breakers run about
>>$300 up here in Canada so we will have to double up the box and
>>install 2 duplex GFCI outlets in each location. Will be installing
>>Dead-Face GFCI outlets "in series" with the separate circuits for
>>refrigerator, OTR Microwave, and dish washer - at the panel - because
>>single 15 amp StabLok breakers are almost $100 each - dead-faces are
>>about $25.
>
>Those sound like some fancy breakers.
They are aftermarket replacements for an obsolete panel who's original
manufacturer went out of business before GFCI was code. Still cheaper
than replacing the panel which requires bringing SO MUCH MORE up to
code.

On 4/9/2024 7:21 PM, Clare Snyder wrote:
> On Tue, 09 Apr 2024 01:22:34 -0500, Jim Joyce <none@none.invalid>
> wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 09 Apr 2024 01:31:00 -0400, Clare Snyder <clare@snyder.on.ca> wrote:
>>
>>> On Mon, 08 Apr 2024 00:02:08 -0500, Jim Joyce <none@none.invalid>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Sun, 7 Apr 2024 22:52:08 -0600, bud-- <null@void.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 4/7/2024 7:22 PM, bud-- wrote:
>>>>>> On 4/7/2024 4:54 PM, Mark Lloyd wrote:
>>>>>>> On 4/7/24 17:14, micky wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> [snip]
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Also allowed use oif "dirt cheap" (like $0.49) "contractor grade" 15
>>>>>>>>> amp outlets (until the tamper-proof outlets became required by code)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> TAmper-proof?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That probably means "hard to use", like it does with some bottles
>>>>>>> including the kind where the real cap is hidden under a fake cap that
>>>>>>> feels like it is ALWAYS loose.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Or child-proof. Required in many locations, including replacement
>>>>>> receptacles for those locations. There are shutters where the blades go
>>>>>> in so kids can't push in something like a paper clip. Push both shutters
>>>>>> and they open for a plug.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The NEC generally just covers new work. There has been a requirement
>>>>> for about 15 years that is, in effect, a retroactive requirement. When
>>>>> receptacles are replaced, the replacement must meet the requirements for
>>>>> a new receptacle at that location - replacement receptacles may have to be:
>>>>> tamper-resistant (child proof - easy to provide)
>>>>> corrosion resistance (outside, easy to provide)
>>>>
>>>> Those receptacles are marked WR, right? I just installed a couple of outside
>>>> receptacles that were marked TR WR (tamper resistant, weather resistant), with
>>>> the GFCI function being provided by the breaker.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> GFCI (receptacle or upstream protection)
>>>>> AFCI (receptacle or upstream protection)
>>>>> Some residential receptacles require GFCI + AFCI + tamper-resistant.
>>>>>
>>>>> Tamper-resistant appears to be required for almost all residential 120V
>>>>> 15 & 20A receptacles.
>>>>>
>>>>> I am confident everyone here has been using the correct receptacle when
>>>>> they replace one.
>>>>
>>>> For sure.
>>>
>>> Good friend is having her kitchen redone. Has "edison" circuit splits
>>> on countertop. Being a StabLok panel 2 pole GFCI breakers run about
>>> $300 up here in Canada so we will have to double up the box and
>>> install 2 duplex GFCI outlets in each location. Will be installing
>>> Dead-Face GFCI outlets "in series" with the separate circuits for
>>> refrigerator, OTR Microwave, and dish washer - at the panel - because
>>> single 15 amp StabLok breakers are almost $100 each - dead-faces are
>>> about $25.
>>
>> Those sound like some fancy breakers.
>
> They are aftermarket replacements for an obsolete panel who's original
> manufacturer went out of business before GFCI was code. Still cheaper
> than replacing the panel which requires bringing SO MUCH MORE up to
> code.
>

Could probably add a subpanel that takes modern breakers.

StabLok wss FPE - Federal Pacific Electric. Reliance Electric bought FPE
and found out fraudulent test results had been sent to UL. UL pulled the
listing for part or all of FPE. Quite sure you have heard all that. Did
the scandal hit Canada? I thought Canada was selling StabLok under
another brand - Challenger?

Limited testing by the CPSC found some breakers failed one of the trip
tests and GFCIs, which I think were very new, might jam and never trip.

[snip]

> StabLok wss FPE - Federal Pacific Electric. Reliance Electric bought FPE
> and found out fraudulent test results had been sent to UL. UL pulled the
> listing for part or all of FPE. Quite sure you have heard all that. Did
> the scandal hit Canada? I thought Canada was selling StabLok under
> another brand - Challenger?
>
> Limited testing by the CPSC found some breakers failed one of the trip
> tests and GFCIs, which I think were very new, might jam and never trip.

I know two people who have had house fires because of FPE panels. One
actually saw the panel glowing.

--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"The Bible is not my book, nor Christianity my religion." -- President
Abraham Lincoln

In alt.home.repair, on Wed, 10 Apr 2024 13:01:11 -0500, Mark Lloyd
<not.email@all.invalid> wrote:

>[snip]
>
>> StabLok wss FPE - Federal Pacific Electric. Reliance Electric bought FPE
>> and found out fraudulent test results had been sent to UL. UL pulled the
>> listing for part or all of FPE. Quite sure you have heard all that. Did
>> the scandal hit Canada? I thought Canada was selling StabLok under
>> another brand - Challenger?
>>
>> Limited testing by the CPSC found some breakers failed one of the trip
>> tests and GFCIs, which I think were very new, might jam and never trip.
>
>I know two people who have had house fires because of FPE panels. One
>actually saw the panel glowing.

I thougt that was a feature, to make it easy to find the breaker box in
an unlit basement.

On Tue, 9 Apr 2024 21:47:32 -0600, bud-- <null@void.com> wrote:

>On 4/9/2024 7:21 PM, Clare Snyder wrote:
>> On Tue, 09 Apr 2024 01:22:34 -0500, Jim Joyce <none@none.invalid>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On Tue, 09 Apr 2024 01:31:00 -0400, Clare Snyder <clare@snyder.on.ca> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Mon, 08 Apr 2024 00:02:08 -0500, Jim Joyce <none@none.invalid>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Sun, 7 Apr 2024 22:52:08 -0600, bud-- <null@void.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 4/7/2024 7:22 PM, bud-- wrote:
>>>>>>> On 4/7/2024 4:54 PM, Mark Lloyd wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 4/7/24 17:14, micky wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> [snip]
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Also allowed use oif "dirt cheap" (like $0.49) "contractor grade" 15
>>>>>>>>>> amp outlets (until the tamper-proof outlets became required by code)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> TAmper-proof?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That probably means "hard to use", like it does with some bottles
>>>>>>>> including the kind where the real cap is hidden under a fake cap that
>>>>>>>> feels like it is ALWAYS loose.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Or child-proof. Required in many locations, including replacement
>>>>>>> receptacles for those locations. There are shutters where the blades go
>>>>>>> in so kids can't push in something like a paper clip. Push both shutters
>>>>>>> and they open for a plug.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The NEC generally just covers new work. There has been a requirement
>>>>>> for about 15 years that is, in effect, a retroactive requirement. When
>>>>>> receptacles are replaced, the replacement must meet the requirements for
>>>>>> a new receptacle at that location - replacement receptacles may have to be:
>>>>>> tamper-resistant (child proof - easy to provide)
>>>>>> corrosion resistance (outside, easy to provide)
>>>>>
>>>>> Those receptacles are marked WR, right? I just installed a couple of outside
>>>>> receptacles that were marked TR WR (tamper resistant, weather resistant), with
>>>>> the GFCI function being provided by the breaker.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> GFCI (receptacle or upstream protection)
>>>>>> AFCI (receptacle or upstream protection)
>>>>>> Some residential receptacles require GFCI + AFCI + tamper-resistant.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Tamper-resistant appears to be required for almost all residential 120V
>>>>>> 15 & 20A receptacles.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I am confident everyone here has been using the correct receptacle when
>>>>>> they replace one.
>>>>>
>>>>> For sure.
>>>>
>>>> Good friend is having her kitchen redone. Has "edison" circuit splits
>>>> on countertop. Being a StabLok panel 2 pole GFCI breakers run about
>>>> $300 up here in Canada so we will have to double up the box and
>>>> install 2 duplex GFCI outlets in each location. Will be installing
>>>> Dead-Face GFCI outlets "in series" with the separate circuits for
>>>> refrigerator, OTR Microwave, and dish washer - at the panel - because
>>>> single 15 amp StabLok breakers are almost $100 each - dead-faces are
>>>> about $25.
>>>
>>> Those sound like some fancy breakers.
> >
>> They are aftermarket replacements for an obsolete panel who's original
>> manufacturer went out of business before GFCI was code. Still cheaper
>> than replacing the panel which requires bringing SO MUCH MORE up to
>> code.
>>
>
>Could probably add a subpanel that takes modern breakers.
That would be an option - but a LOT more work - no room on the current
board and no good place to add another one
>
>StabLok wss FPE - Federal Pacific Electric. Reliance Electric bought FPE
>and found out fraudulent test results had been sent to UL. UL pulled the
>listing for part or all of FPE. Quite sure you have heard all that. Did
>the scandal hit Canada? I thought Canada was selling StabLok under
>another brand - Challenger?

FPE here was Federal Pioneer and yes there was scandal here too -
quiality issues - which were somewhat overstated - but "nobody: wants
FPE panels here either. Not sure we ever got the original FPE GFCI
deviced here. CSA certification is/was a LOT more strenuois than
amarican certification
>
>Limited testing by the CPSC found some breakers failed one of the trip
>tests and GFCIs, which I think were very new, might jam and never trip.
FPE is now owned by Schneider Electric and is marketed as Square D
Homeline.??

have a look at amazon https://www.amazon.co.uk/

--
For full context, visit https://www.homeownershub.com/maintenance/flicker-free-led-bulbs-3464285-.htm

On Mon, 8 Apr 2024 00:35:15 -0400, Ed Pawlowski posted for all of us to
digest...

>
> On 4/8/2024 12:10 AM, Bob F wrote:
> > On 4/7/2024 3:16 PM, micky wrote:
> >> In alt.home.repair, on Sun, 7 Apr 2024 17:00:42 -0600, bud--
> >> <null@void.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> On 4/7/2024 9:36 AM, Ed P wrote:
> >>>> On 4/7/2024 10:36 AM, cshenk wrote:
> >>>>> bud-- wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> On 4/5/2024 6:10 PM, Xeno wrote:
> >>>>> I was taught the 15amps were lighting and the others are 20.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> You were taught a good way, but that is not code.  Bathroom and kitchen
> >>>> are the only places it is required to be 20A.
> >>>
> >>> Also laundry. Bathroom is the most recent addition. Kitchen includes
> >>> some other areas like dining room.
> >>
> >> Don't tell me people blow-dry their hair in the laundry room.  Now that
> >> is sick.
> >
> > I wash my hair in the laundry tub. Sure beats a bathroom sink.
> >
>
> I sent my hair to the laundry to get washed a few years ago. Has not
> come back yet.

Hair Club for Men leave you down?

--
Hiram