Hi All,

I am noticing that Kohler's whole house standby
generator comes in single phase and three phase.

My dryer and my stove both use 230V. So I
though my house was two phase from the
service and the two sides balanced between
my house for 115V at the outlets with
the exception of the stove and the dryer
where I get both phases.

Am I wrong about that? Could my house be
three phase? If so, how is it divided up?

Many thanks,
-T

On 7/22/23 00:02, T wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> I am noticing that Kohler's whole house standby
> generator comes in single phase and three phase.
>
> My dryer and my stove both use 230V.  So I
> though my house was two phase from the
> service and the two sides balanced between
> my house for 115V at the outlets with
> the exception of the stove and the dryer
> where I get both phases.
>
> Am I wrong about that? Could my house be
> three phase? If so, how is it divided up?
>
> Many thanks,
> -T

I am noticing on Kolker's spec sheet:
https://kohlerpower.com/en/residential/generators/product/14resa
Phase Single Phase or Three Phase
Voltage @ 60 Hz 120/240
Now my understanding of two phase is
that your have three wires. The middle
one is ground, one of the outer ones is
120V 0 degrees, and the other one is
120V 180 degrees.
My understand of three phase is
four wires. One ground and three
other wires of 120V that are
0 degrees
120 degree, and
240 degrees
Am I missing something here? How did
Kohler come up with three phase and 240
volts?
Many thanks,
-T

On 7/22/23 00:27, T wrote:
> On 7/22/23 00:02, T wrote:
>> Hi All,
>>
>> I am noticing that Kohler's whole house standby
>> generator comes in single phase and three phase.
>>
>> My dryer and my stove both use 230V.  So I
>> though my house was two phase from the
>> service and the two sides balanced between
>> my house for 115V at the outlets with
>> the exception of the stove and the dryer
>> where I get both phases.
>>
>> Am I wrong about that? Could my house be
>> three phase? If so, how is it divided up?
>>
>> Many thanks,
>> -T
>
>
> I am noticing on Kolker's spec sheet:
>
> https://kohlerpower.com/en/residential/generators/product/14resa
>
> Phase Single Phase or Three Phase
> Voltage @ 60 Hz 120/240
>
> Now my understanding of two phase is
> that your have three wires.  The middle
> one is ground, one of the outer ones is
> 120V 0 degrees, and the other one is
> 120V 180 degrees.
>
> My understand of three phase is
> four wires. One ground and  three
> other wires of 120V that are
>    0   degrees
>    120 degree, and
>    240 degrees
>
> Am I missing something here?  How did
> Kohler come up with three phase and 240
> volts?
>
> Many thanks,
> -T
By chance are they using one of the
three phases for the neutral and not
using a forth wire for the return?

On 7/22/2023 3:16 AM, T wrote:
> On 7/22/23 00:27, T wrote:
>> On 7/22/23 00:02, T wrote:
>>> Hi All,
>>>
>>> I am noticing that Kohler's whole house standby
>>> generator comes in single phase and three phase.
>>>
>>> My dryer and my stove both use 230V.  So I
>>> though my house was two phase from the
>>> service and the two sides balanced between
>>> my house for 115V at the outlets with
>>> the exception of the stove and the dryer
>>> where I get both phases.
>>>
>>> Am I wrong about that? Could my house be
>>> three phase? If so, how is it divided up?
>>>
>>> Many thanks,
>>> -T
>>
>>
>> I am noticing on Kolker's spec sheet:
>>
>> https://kohlerpower.com/en/residential/generators/product/14resa
>>
>> Phase Single Phase or Three Phase
>> Voltage @ 60 Hz 120/240
>>
>> Now my understanding of two phase is
>> that your have three wires.  The middle
>> one is ground, one of the outer ones is
>> 120V 0 degrees, and the other one is
>> 120V 180 degrees.
>>
>> My understand of three phase is
>> four wires. One ground and  three
>> other wires of 120V that are
>>     0   degrees
>>     120 degree, and
>>     240 degrees
>>
>> Am I missing something here?  How did
>> Kohler come up with three phase and 240
>> volts?
>>
>> Many thanks,
>> -T
>
> By chance are they using one of the
> three phases for the neutral and not
> using a forth wire for the return?
>

The transformer supplies 120/240 single phase . The load side of the
transformer has a "tap" coming from the center of the winding . Loads
hooked to the center tap and either side will be 120 , across the whole
winding will be 240 V . All the same phase .
--
Snag
Men don't protect women because they're weak .
We protect them because they're important .

On Saturday, July 22, 2023 at 3:28:45 AM UTC-4, T wrote:
> On 7/22/23 00:02, T wrote:
> > Hi All,
> >
> > I am noticing that Kohler's whole house standby
> > generator comes in single phase and three phase.
> >
> > My dryer and my stove both use 230V. So I
> > though my house was two phase from the
> > service and the two sides balanced between
> > my house for 115V at the outlets with
> > the exception of the stove and the dryer
> > where I get both phases.
> >
> > Am I wrong about that? Could my house be
> > three phase? If so, how is it divided up?
> >
> > Many thanks,
> > -T
> I am noticing on Kolker's spec sheet:
>
> https://kohlerpower.com/en/residential/generators/product/14resa
>
> Phase Single Phase or Three Phase
> Voltage @ 60 Hz 120/240
>
> Now my understanding of two phase is
> that your have three wires. The middle
> one is ground, one of the outer ones is
> 120V 0 degrees, and the other one is
> 120V 180 degrees.

It's called split-phase, but it does look and act like two 120V
phases 180 deg apart.

>
> My understand of three phase is
> four wires. One ground and three
> other wires of 120V that are
> 0 degrees
> 120 degree, and
> 240 degrees

Typically it's those 3 plus a ground. Some applications can have
a neutral added too, so then it's 5 wires.

>
> Am I missing something here? How did
> Kohler come up with three phase and 240
> volts?
>
> Many thanks,
> -T

240V 3 phase is used in commercial applications to support light 3 phase
loads and 120/240V service. You're house doesn't have 3 phase.

On Saturday, July 22, 2023 at 2:02:27 AM UTC-5, T wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> I am noticing that Kohler's whole house standby
> generator comes in single phase and three phase.
>
> My dryer and my stove both use 230V. So I
> though my house was two phase from the
> service and the two sides balanced between
> my house for 115V at the outlets with
> the exception of the stove and the dryer
> where I get both phases.
>
> Am I wrong about that? Could my house be
> three phase? If so, how is it divided up?
>
> Many thanks,
> -T

Niagara Falls generators were originally two phase. They've been changed out. Some areas of Philadelphia still use two phase. I've seen three phase 240vac for hookups to grain bins. That's because the dryer fans need more power than single phase could supply. There's a 10 hp. limit in my are for single phase.

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-phase_electric_power>

In article <u9futs$3npvo$1@dont-email.me>, T@invalid.invalid says...
>
> I am noticing that Kohler's whole house standby
> generator comes in single phase and three phase.
>
> My dryer and my stove both use 230V. So I
> though my house was two phase from the
> service and the two sides balanced between
> my house for 115V at the outlets with
> the exception of the stove and the dryer
> where I get both phases.
>
> Am I wrong about that? Could my house be
> three phase? If so, how is it divided up?
>
>
>

Forget about the 2 phase and 3 phase stuff. What you and most all homes
in the US has is a single phase with a center tap. Three wires plus
maybe a ground come into the house. Across 2 of the wires is the 240
volts. From the neuteal wire to either of those two wires is 120 volts.

There are some odd ball places that seem to have 120/208 volts. Seems
like the standard for the US is not so standard.

Almost no homes will have 3 phase going into them. That is for larger
users of electricity and especially if they have large motors.

People often call what is comming into the house as 2 phase, but that is
not true two phase. It is single phase with a center tap.

True 2 phase was never used in most homes of the US. I think there may
have been some in the New York area but it is an exception to most of
the US.

People may use several voltages when talking. They are all the same
such as 110/220, 115/230, 120/240. Over the years the power company has
been upping the voltage. My house is often 126/252 as measured by a
meter I have traced to the government standard.

On 7/22/2023 10:33 AM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
> In article <u9futs$3npvo$1@dont-email.me>, T@invalid.invalid says...
>>
>> I am noticing that Kohler's whole house standby
>> generator comes in single phase and three phase.
>>
>> My dryer and my stove both use 230V. So I
>> though my house was two phase from the
>> service and the two sides balanced between
>> my house for 115V at the outlets with
>> the exception of the stove and the dryer
>> where I get both phases.
>>
>> Am I wrong about that? Could my house be
>> three phase? If so, how is it divided up?
>>
>>
>>
>
> Forget about the 2 phase and 3 phase stuff. What you and most all homes
> in the US has is a single phase with a center tap. Three wires plus
> maybe a ground come into the house. Across 2 of the wires is the 240
> volts. From the neuteal wire to either of those two wires is 120 volts.
>
> There are some odd ball places that seem to have 120/208 volts. Seems
> like the standard for the US is not so standard.
>

I think the 208 comes from 440 3 phase with the transformer wired wye
(or is it delta? memory fails me on this one) . 440 between legs but
only 208 from any one leg to neutral/ground . Been a lotta years since
that knowledge was useful to me ...
--
Snag
Men don't protect women because they're weak .
We protect them because they're important .

In article <V1TuM.85057$GMN3.29678@fx16.iad>, snag_one@msn.com says...
> I think the 208 comes from 440 3 phase with the transformer wired wye
> (or is it delta? memory fails me on this one) . 440 between legs but
> only 208 from any one leg to neutral/ground . Been a lotta years since
> that knowledge was useful to me ...
> --
> Sn
>

I forgot where the 208 comes from. It may be 208 3 phase with 120 volts
on the center conductor. At the plant we has about 2 circuits that had
208 on it. I think we had a little of many kinds of circuits except none
of the true 2 phase stuff. Even had some Europe stuff that had 380 volts
3 phase if I recall that odd voltage correctly. It was 300 and some.
They used red for on (danger) and green for off (safe to work on).
Might as well not have any colors at all with that confusion.

On the 440 volt circuit the Y was used and it is 277 volts from the
center of the y to one leg. Mainly used for the lighting circuits where
I worked. Had to make sure all 3 breakers for the hot wires were cut
off before the circuit was totally dead.

On 7/22/23 04:36, Snag wrote:
> On 7/22/2023 3:16 AM, T wrote:
>> On 7/22/23 00:27, T wrote:
>>> On 7/22/23 00:02, T wrote:
>>>> Hi All,
>>>>
>>>> I am noticing that Kohler's whole house standby
>>>> generator comes in single phase and three phase.
>>>>
>>>> My dryer and my stove both use 230V.  So I
>>>> though my house was two phase from the
>>>> service and the two sides balanced between
>>>> my house for 115V at the outlets with
>>>> the exception of the stove and the dryer
>>>> where I get both phases.
>>>>
>>>> Am I wrong about that? Could my house be
>>>> three phase? If so, how is it divided up?
>>>>
>>>> Many thanks,
>>>> -T
>>>
>>>
>>> I am noticing on Kolker's spec sheet:
>>>
>>> https://kohlerpower.com/en/residential/generators/product/14resa
>>>
>>> Phase Single Phase or Three Phase
>>> Voltage @ 60 Hz 120/240
>>>
>>> Now my understanding of two phase is
>>> that your have three wires.  The middle
>>> one is ground, one of the outer ones is
>>> 120V 0 degrees, and the other one is
>>> 120V 180 degrees.
>>>
>>> My understand of three phase is
>>> four wires. One ground and  three
>>> other wires of 120V that are
>>>     0   degrees
>>>     120 degree, and
>>>     240 degrees
>>>
>>> Am I missing something here?  How did
>>> Kohler come up with three phase and 240
>>> volts?
>>>
>>> Many thanks,
>>> -T
>>
>> By chance are they using one of the
>> three phases for the neutral and not
>> using a forth wire for the return?
>>
>
>   The transformer supplies 120/240 single phase . The load side of the
> transformer has a "tap" coming from the center of the winding . Loads
> hooked to the center tap and either side will be 120 , across the whole
> winding will be 240 V . All the same phase .

Hi Snag,
This has all been a trip down memory lane for me as I
hold a bachelors degree in electrical, electronics,
and computer engineering.
If a center tap transformer is using one of the
the upper or lower legs as neutral, then
your explanation holds.
But if the center tap is used as neutral, the
two legs are of equal and opposite polarity (180
deg out of phase with each other).
I use to do this all the time with "push pull"
amplifiers.
And if your are really cleaver with the winding,
you can have two legs that are 90 degrees out of
phase and a third legs that absorbs any standing
waves reflected back to the transformer from your
load, usually and antenna. I use to do this all
the time with Low Noise (radio) Amplifiers
(LNA's). Got really good at it too. I use to
design radio circuit in my 20's and 30's.
https://engineering.electrical-equipment.org/electrical-distribution/centre-tapped-transformer.html
When an additional wire is connected across the
exact middle point of the secondary winding of
a transformer, it is called a center tapped
transformer. The wire is adjusted such that
it falls in the exact middle point of the
secondary winding and is thus at zero volts,
forming the neutral point for the winding. This
is called the “center tap” and this thing
allows the transformer to provide two separate
output voltages which are equal in magnitude,
but *opposite in polarity* to each other. In this
way, we can also use a number of turn ratios
from such a transformer.
A standard house look to me to use a Center Tap neutral.
It is if this guys paper holds true:
http://thecircuitdetective.com/bkgrd.php
A circuit's hot wire is, we might say, one half
of the path the circuit takes between the
electrical source and the operating items
("loads"). The other half, in the case of a
120-volt circuit, is the "neutral" wire. For a
240-volt circuit, the other half is a hot wire
from the other phase -- the other hot coming
from the transformer. When they are turned
on (operating, running), the loads are part
of the path of the current and are where
the electricity is doing its intended work.
This is where my confusion comes in. Why would
Kohler be specifying out a three phase generator
if you had an electric dryer and stove, but a
single phase generator is you had a gas stove
and range? Both my dryer and my range are both
two phase.
Maybe they are using one of the thee phases
as neutral? But that does not make any sense
to me.
-T

On Sunday, July 23, 2023 at 12:54:03 AM UTC-4, T wrote:
> On 7/22/23 04:36, Snag wrote:
> > On 7/22/2023 3:16 AM, T wrote:
> >> On 7/22/23 00:27, T wrote:
> >>> On 7/22/23 00:02, T wrote:
> >>>> Hi All,
> >>>>
> >>>> I am noticing that Kohler's whole house standby
> >>>> generator comes in single phase and three phase.
> >>>>
> >>>> My dryer and my stove both use 230V. So I
> >>>> though my house was two phase from the
> >>>> service and the two sides balanced between
> >>>> my house for 115V at the outlets with
> >>>> the exception of the stove and the dryer
> >>>> where I get both phases.
> >>>>
> >>>> Am I wrong about that? Could my house be
> >>>> three phase? If so, how is it divided up?
> >>>>
> >>>> Many thanks,
> >>>> -T
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> I am noticing on Kolker's spec sheet:
> >>>
> >>> https://kohlerpower.com/en/residential/generators/product/14resa
> >>>
> >>> Phase Single Phase or Three Phase
> >>> Voltage @ 60 Hz 120/240
> >>>
> >>> Now my understanding of two phase is
> >>> that your have three wires. The middle
> >>> one is ground, one of the outer ones is
> >>> 120V 0 degrees, and the other one is
> >>> 120V 180 degrees.
> >>>
> >>> My understand of three phase is
> >>> four wires. One ground and three
> >>> other wires of 120V that are
> >>> 0 degrees
> >>> 120 degree, and
> >>> 240 degrees
> >>>
> >>> Am I missing something here? How did
> >>> Kohler come up with three phase and 240
> >>> volts?
> >>>
> >>> Many thanks,
> >>> -T
> >>
> >> By chance are they using one of the
> >> three phases for the neutral and not
> >> using a forth wire for the return?
> >>
> >
> > The transformer supplies 120/240 single phase . The load side of the
> > transformer has a "tap" coming from the center of the winding . Loads
> > hooked to the center tap and either side will be 120 , across the whole
> > winding will be 240 V . All the same phase .
> Hi Snag,
>
> This has all been a trip down memory lane for me as I
> hold a bachelors degree in electrical, electronics,
> and computer engineering.
>
> If a center tap transformer is using one of the
> the upper or lower legs as neutral, then
> your explanation holds.
>
> But if the center tap is used as neutral, the
> two legs are of equal and opposite polarity (180
> deg out of phase with each other).
>
> I use to do this all the time with "push pull"
> amplifiers.
>
> And if your are really cleaver with the winding,
> you can have two legs that are 90 degrees out of
> phase and a third legs that absorbs any standing
> waves reflected back to the transformer from your
> load, usually and antenna. I use to do this all
> the time with Low Noise (radio) Amplifiers
> (LNA's). Got really good at it too. I use to
> design radio circuit in my 20's and 30's.
>
> https://engineering.electrical-equipment.org/electrical-distribution/centre-tapped-transformer.html
>
> When an additional wire is connected across the
> exact middle point of the secondary winding of
> a transformer, it is called a center tapped
> transformer. The wire is adjusted such that
> it falls in the exact middle point of the
> secondary winding and is thus at zero volts,
> forming the neutral point for the winding. This
> is called the “center tap” and this thing
> allows the transformer to provide two separate
> output voltages which are equal in magnitude,
> but *opposite in polarity* to each other. In this
> way, we can also use a number of turn ratios
> from such a transformer.
>
> A standard house look to me to use a Center Tap neutral.
> It is if this guys paper holds true:
>
> http://thecircuitdetective.com/bkgrd.php
>
> A circuit's hot wire is, we might say, one half
> of the path the circuit takes between the
> electrical source and the operating items
> ("loads"). The other half, in the case of a
> 120-volt circuit, is the "neutral" wire. For a
> 240-volt circuit, the other half is a hot wire
> from the other phase -- the other hot coming
> from the transformer. When they are turned
> on (operating, running), the loads are part
> of the path of the current and are where
> the electricity is doing its intended work.
>
> This is where my confusion comes in. Why would
> Kohler be specifying out a three phase generator
> if you had an electric dryer and stove, but a
> single phase generator is you had a gas stove
> and range? Both my dryer and my range are both
> two phase.

So they can sell that generator to customers that will use it for
split-phase residential like you or customers that will use it for
light commercial that needs 3 phase for some equipment.

>
> Maybe they are using one of the thee phases
> as neutral? But that does not make any sense
> to me.
>
> -T

On Saturday, July 22, 2023 at 2:02:27 AM UTC-5, T wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> I am noticing that Kohler's whole house standby
> generator comes in single phase and three phase.
>
> My dryer and my stove both use 230V. So I
> though my house was two phase from the
> service and the two sides balanced between
> my house for 115V at the outlets with
> the exception of the stove and the dryer
> where I get both phases.
>
> Am I wrong about that? Could my house be
> three phase? If so, how is it divided up?
>
> Many thanks,
> -T

Try sci.electronics.design

On Saturday, July 22, 2023 at 11:33:44 AM UTC-4, Ralph Mowery wrote:
>
> There are some odd ball places that seem to have 120/208 volts. Seems
> like the standard for the US is not so standard.
>
> Almost no homes will have 3 phase going into them. That is for larger
> users of electricity and especially if they have large motors.
>

We had a residential area with 3 phase for the air conditioners. I think they got a deal on the units buying in bulk - it happened before I got there so I don't really know.

Anyway, that meant 208 leg to ground. The occupants all complained their dryers took longer to dry, and the stoves longer to heat up.

On Sunday, July 23, 2023 at 2:00:57 PM UTC-4, TimR wrote:
> On Saturday, July 22, 2023 at 11:33:44 AM UTC-4, Ralph Mowery wrote:
> >
> > There are some odd ball places that seem to have 120/208 volts. Seems
> > like the standard for the US is not so standard.
> >
> > Almost no homes will have 3 phase going into them. That is for larger
> > users of electricity and especially if they have large motors.
> >
> We had a residential area with 3 phase for the air conditioners. I think they got a deal on the units buying in bulk - it happened before I got there so I don't really know.
>
> Anyway, that meant 208 leg to ground. The occupants all complained their dryers took longer to dry, and the stoves longer to heat up.

Wait, I think I said that wrong. I think it is 120 leg to neutral, and 208 leg to leg.

Which brings up a thought.
In an average US house, you have 240/120, and you try to divide up the load equally between the hot buses. Theoretically when the loads balance there is no current on the neutral. But you're always adjusting it, turning on lights or appliances, the refrigerator kicking on, etc.

Do they make a load center that can shift loads to keep it balanced?

[snip]

>We had a residential area with 3 phase for the air conditioners. I think t=
>hey got a deal on the units buying in bulk - it happened before I got there=
> so I don't really know.

>Anyway, that meant 208 leg to ground. The occupants all complained their d=
>ryers took longer to dry, and the stoves longer to heat up.

while most of the US does "center tapping" to bring "two hots and
a neutral" (plus safety ground) into houses and small buildings,
thus giving you 120VAC when hot <-> neutral and 240VAC hot <-> hot,
plenty of building in the NYC area use two legs of a three phase
wiring setup.

This is common in apartment buildings and many commercial structures,
so that...

apt # 1 will get Leg A and Leg B, plus neutral.
apt # 2 will get Leg A and Leg C
apt # 3 will get Leg B and Leg C.

Rinse, lather, repeat.

All three "hots" will feed into the three-phase motor
used for the elevator, pehaps water pumps, and to the
common area, large, central air conditioners.

What this leads to is that... the so-called "240VAC"
is actually (the equivalent of) 208VAC, which, as the
earlier poster pointed out, dramatically cuts down
the actual heat you get in electric dryers and stoves.

(Not as noticable in ovens)

It's worse than you'd think. 208 is
bout 85% of 240, so at first glance you might
say it's just ("just") a 15 percent reduction
in throughput, with only a modest time increase,
BUUUUUTTTT

that 15% voltage reduction _also_ means a 15% [a] reduction
in amperage, so that actual wattage going through is
cut by about 30% (numbers rounded). That adds up
pretty quickly. And the horrors of trying to match
color renditions ("colour temperature") of incandescent
lamps as the voltage changes will give you headaches.

And in regards to motors? supposedly most are designed
to handle that range od 208 - 240VAC without hiccuping,
but... well, I can tell you from personal experience
we had a half dozen modestly large (25,000 or so BTU/hr)
window air conditioners quickly die when used at
the lower voltage.

This despite specifically asking both the local sales
reps and the corporate hq mouthpieces if they'd be
ok running at 208.

[a] ignoring for now the changes in resistance at
different temperatures, etc/

--
_____________________________________________________
Knowledge may be power, but communications is the key
dannyb@panix.com
[to foil spammers, my address has been double rot-13 encoded]

In article <u9ibot$5kqj$1@dont-email.me>, T@invalid.invalid says...
>
> Hi Snag,
>
> This has all been a trip down memory lane for me as I
> hold a bachelors degree in electrical, electronics,
> and computer engineering.
>
>
>

It is time for you to revisit your text books. True two phase is
actually 90 deg out of phase and not 180 deg like you get from a center
tapped transformer or the push pull amplifier circuits. Often 4 wires
are used for the true 2 phase instead of 3 wires like the split phase
(single phase) found in most of the US power grid.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-phase_electric_power

The simple answer is that 240V residential circuits are - by definition
- single phase, not 2-phase, but the addition of a neutral causes a bit
of a split personality and a lot of misunderstandings.

In article <b864ad39-db8e-4d05-afb0-dc03a830a028n@googlegroups.com>,
timothy42bach@gmail.com says...
>
> We had a residential area with 3 phase for the air conditioners. I think they got a deal on the units buying in bulk - it happened before I got there so I don't really know.
>
> Anyway, that meant 208 leg to ground. The occupants all complained their dryers took longer to dry, and the stoves longer to heat up.
>
>

There are some , or used to be, appliances that are built for the lower
208 voltage that work and heat "normally". Probably hard to find now
and more expensive. Probably cheaper in the long run if a large
transformer was installed to bring up the voltage if one could be found.

At work we had some heaters that were rated for about 2 or 3 KW. They
looked identical but some were rated for 208 and some for 240. The
plant had a few areas that of all things had 208 volts. The 208 units
did not last too long at 240 volts. Where they were used it did not
make much difference if the 240 volt units were put in the 208 power.
They were just in block buildings about 10 feet square that housed some
fire protecton valves and pipes.

On Sat, 22 Jul 2023 11:33:36 -0400, Ralph Mowery
<rmowery42@charter.net> wrote:

>In article <u9futs$3npvo$1@dont-email.me>, T@invalid.invalid says...
>>
>> I am noticing that Kohler's whole house standby
>> generator comes in single phase and three phase.
>>
>> My dryer and my stove both use 230V. So I
>> though my house was two phase from the
>> service and the two sides balanced between
>> my house for 115V at the outlets with
>> the exception of the stove and the dryer
>> where I get both phases.
>>
>> Am I wrong about that? Could my house be
>> three phase? If so, how is it divided up?
>>
>>
>>
>
>Forget about the 2 phase and 3 phase stuff. What you and most all homes
>in the US has is a single phase with a center tap. Three wires plus
>maybe a ground come into the house. Across 2 of the wires is the 240
>volts. From the neuteal wire to either of those two wires is 120 volts.
>
>There are some odd ball places that seem to have 120/208 volts. Seems
>like the standard for the US is not so standard.

120/208 is 2 phases of a 3 phase circuit
>
>Almost no homes will have 3 phase going into them. That is for larger
>users of electricity and especially if they have large motors.
>
Many MURBs have 3 phase power - and that is where you generally find
120/208
>People often call what is comming into the house as 2 phase, but that is
>not true two phase. It is single phase with a center tap.
>
> True 2 phase was never used in most homes of the US. I think there may
>have been some in the New York area but it is an exception to most of
>the US.
>
>People may use several voltages when talking. They are all the same
>such as 110/220, 115/230, 120/240. Over the years the power company has
>been upping the voltage. My house is often 126/252 as measured by a
>meter I have traced to the government standard.

In article <MPG.3f2743d7eb633a91989e14@news.eternal-september.org>,
rmowery42@charter.net says...
>
> In article <u9ibot$5kqj$1@dont-email.me>, T@invalid.invalid says...
> >
> > Hi Snag,
> >
> > This has all been a trip down memory lane for me as I
> > hold a bachelors degree in electrical, electronics,
> > and computer engineering.
> >
>
>

https://ctlsys.com/support/electrical_service_types_and_voltages/

On Sun, 23 Jul 2023 11:06:47 -0700 (PDT), TimR <timothy42bach@gmail.com>
wrote:

>In an average US house, you have 240/120, and you try to divide up the load equally between the hot buses. Theoretically when the loads balance there is no current on the neutral. But you're always adjusting it, turning on lights or appliances, the refrigerator kicking on, etc.
>
>Do they make a load center that can shift loads to keep it balanced?

I haven't seen such a thing.

I think the general idea is that even if one home is unbalanced in one
direction, the next home might be unbalanced in the other direction,
thus smoothing things out. Across an entire neighborhood, perhaps the
difference becomes slight.

On 7/23/23 12:05, Ralph Mowery wrote:
> In article <u9ibot$5kqj$1@dont-email.me>, T@invalid.invalid says...
>>
>> Hi Snag,
>>
>> This has all been a trip down memory lane for me as I
>> hold a bachelors degree in electrical, electronics,
>> and computer engineering.
>>
>>
>>
>
> It is time for you to revisit your text books. True two phase is
> actually 90 deg out of phase and not 180 deg like you get from a center
> tapped transformer or the push pull amplifier circuits. Often 4 wires
> are used for the true 2 phase instead of 3 wires like the split phase
> (single phase) found in most of the US power grid.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-phase_electric_power
>
> The simple answer is that 240V residential circuits are - by definition
> - single phase, not 2-phase, but the addition of a neutral causes a bit
> of a split personality and a lot of misunderstandings.
>
>

Yikes! Hit the books for sure!!!!

Never heard of 90 degree power. This is
going to be an eductaion.

In college, the "electrical" courses mostly
consisted of lab with three phase and giant
engines running off them

On 7/23/23 12:32, Ralph Mowery wrote:
> In article <MPG.3f2743d7eb633a91989e14@news.eternal-september.org>,
> rmowery42@charter.net says...
>>
>> In article <u9ibot$5kqj$1@dont-email.me>, T@invalid.invalid says...
>>>
>>> Hi Snag,
>>>
>>> This has all been a trip down memory lane for me as I
>>> hold a bachelors degree in electrical, electronics,
>>> and computer engineering.
>>>
>>
>>
>
> https://ctlsys.com/support/electrical_service_types_and_voltages/
>
>

Hi Ralph,

Yikes! Hit the books for sure!

The schematic in the link

https://ctlsys.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/Single_phase_3_wire.png

for "Single Phase Three Wire" shows zero
and 180 degree voltages with a center tap
neutral. And that will work perfectly for
my range and dryer.

Next step is to look at the wiring manual
for the Kohler and see if their "single phase"
naming convention is actually 0 and 180 deg
center tap.

Thank you for the links!

-T

On 7/23/23 15:12, T wrote:
> On 7/23/23 12:05, Ralph Mowery wrote:
>> In article <u9ibot$5kqj$1@dont-email.me>, T@invalid.invalid says...
>>>
>>> Hi Snag,
>>>
>>> This has all been a trip down memory lane for me as I
>>> hold a bachelors degree in electrical, electronics,
>>> and computer engineering.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> It is time for you to revisit your text books.  True two phase is
>> actually 90 deg out of phase and not 180 deg like you get from a center
>> tapped transformer or the push pull amplifier circuits. Often 4 wires
>> are used for the true 2 phase instead of 3 wires like the split phase
>> (single phase) found in most of the US power grid.
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-phase_electric_power
>>
>> The simple answer is that 240V residential circuits are - by definition
>> - single phase, not 2-phase, but the addition of a neutral causes a bit
>> of a split personality and a lot of misunderstandings.
>>
>>
>
>
> Yikes!  Hit the books for sure!!!!
>
> Never heard of 90 degree power.  This is
> going to be an eductaion.
>
> In college, the "electrical" courses mostly
> consisted of lab with three phase and giant
> engines running off them

Ah Ha!!!! I get it now!

On 7/23/23 15:12, T wrote:
> On 7/23/23 12:05, Ralph Mowery wrote:
>> In article <u9ibot$5kqj$1@dont-email.me>, T@invalid.invalid says...
>>>
>>> Hi Snag,
>>>
>>> This has all been a trip down memory lane for me as I
>>> hold a bachelors degree in electrical, electronics,
>>> and computer engineering.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> It is time for you to revisit your text books.  True two phase is
>> actually 90 deg out of phase and not 180 deg like you get from a center
>> tapped transformer or the push pull amplifier circuits. Often 4 wires
>> are used for the true 2 phase instead of 3 wires like the split phase
>> (single phase) found in most of the US power grid.
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-phase_electric_power
>>
>> The simple answer is that 240V residential circuits are - by definition
>> - single phase, not 2-phase, but the addition of a neutral causes a bit
>> of a split personality and a lot of misunderstandings.
>>
>>
>
>
> Yikes!  Hit the books for sure!!!!
>
> Never heard of 90 degree power.  This is
> going to be an eductaion.
>
> In college, the "electrical" courses mostly
> consisted of lab with three phase and giant
> engines running off them
Hi Ralph,
Ah Ha! I get it now. I was looking at in
from the prospective of an electronic circuit
designer not a utility supplier.
In the following
https://engineering.electrical-equipment.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/Centre-Tapped-Transformer.jpg
I was look at the "secondary" of the transformer.
The naming convention is the "primary" of the
transformer, which is indeed single phase.
The convention is from the utilities prospective
(the primary), not mine (the secondary).
Thank you for the education!
:-)
-T

On 7/22/23 04:36, Snag wrote:
> On 7/22/2023 3:16 AM, T wrote:
>> On 7/22/23 00:27, T wrote:
>>> On 7/22/23 00:02, T wrote:
>>>> Hi All,
>>>>
>>>> I am noticing that Kohler's whole house standby
>>>> generator comes in single phase and three phase.
>>>>
>>>> My dryer and my stove both use 230V.  So I
>>>> though my house was two phase from the
>>>> service and the two sides balanced between
>>>> my house for 115V at the outlets with
>>>> the exception of the stove and the dryer
>>>> where I get both phases.
>>>>
>>>> Am I wrong about that? Could my house be
>>>> three phase? If so, how is it divided up?
>>>>
>>>> Many thanks,
>>>> -T
>>>
>>>
>>> I am noticing on Kolker's spec sheet:
>>>
>>> https://kohlerpower.com/en/residential/generators/product/14resa
>>>
>>> Phase Single Phase or Three Phase
>>> Voltage @ 60 Hz 120/240
>>>
>>> Now my understanding of two phase is
>>> that your have three wires.  The middle
>>> one is ground, one of the outer ones is
>>> 120V 0 degrees, and the other one is
>>> 120V 180 degrees.
>>>
>>> My understand of three phase is
>>> four wires. One ground and  three
>>> other wires of 120V that are
>>>     0   degrees
>>>     120 degree, and
>>>     240 degrees
>>>
>>> Am I missing something here?  How did
>>> Kohler come up with three phase and 240
>>> volts?
>>>
>>> Many thanks,
>>> -T
>>
>> By chance are they using one of the
>> three phases for the neutral and not
>> using a forth wire for the return?
>>
>
>   The transformer supplies 120/240 single phase . The load side of the
> transformer has a "tap" coming from the center of the winding . Loads
> hooked to the center tap and either side will be 120 , across the whole
> winding will be 240 V . All the same phase .
Hi Snag,
Figured it out with Ralph's help.
I was looking at in from the prospective of
an electronic circuit designer not a
utility supplier.
In the following
https://engineering.electrical-equipment.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/Centre-Tapped-Transformer.jpg
I was look at the "secondary" of the transformer.
The naming convention is the "primary" of the
transformer, which is indeed single phase.
The convention is from the utilities prospective
(the primary), not mine (the secondary).
And you were correct. it just did not sink in.
-T