On Fri, 21 May 2021 12:31:44 +0000, Dan Purgert wrote:

> Lewis wrote:
>> That is the usage I first learned, so is what I think of, so it's a bit
>> odd for me when I see it used as a general term, though otoh, nerd has
>> also moved much more into a mainstream word.
>
> Thank you for confirming the usage as far as you're aware of it, which
> is chiefly what I was interested in given it's a new word to my
> experience.
>
> It's interesting as it seems strange such a recent word wouldn't have a
> more definitive origin given its first appearance was only a few decades
> ago.

The US equivalent seems to be "guru", which, though an older word, seems
to be newer even than "boffin" in that respect.

I associate boffin with the development of electronic warfare -- radar,
code cracking and the like.

An SAfE equivalent is "fundi", from the Zulu "umfundi", meaning s
scholar, a learner, or a well-read person.

But a "Computer fundi", a "computer boffin" or a "computer guru" have
largely overlapping meanings, with "boffin" weighted more towards
hardware than software, and towards R & D.

--
Steve Hayes http://khanya.wordpress.com

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256

Steve Hayes wrote:
> I associate boffin with the development of electronic warfare -- radar,
> code cracking and the like.

It's just my conjecture but I wonder aloud whether "BOF" wasn't a department
of some technical intelligence sort, "British" "Operations" "Forensics"...

The "B" and "O" are more common though than the "F" in spy terminology.
http://www.intelligencesearch.com/spy.html
https://www.thefreedictionary.com/words-that-start-with-f
https://www.spymuseum.org/education-programs/spy-resources/language-of-espionage/#F

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----

iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEBcqaUD8uEzVNxUrujhHd8xJ5ooEFAl5nnnYACgkQjhHd8xJ5
ooFFQgf/Wd/67GaYp/s/5FtSCJl83OCTllraWmP6piWqk4qRe9NQnHswlNs8jWch
CtGPGLndzYGyR27n/mCiHcINNFPgLqfOtryU8Hgm7MAh9M9sEwFZpvFnOaM3k/IF
zaAWrJAV631vHFpWiLrM93EzCBHakHJvFyjtqv3fBH+rfjaCokGo8y65lmYSIqCD
s5gNd7lBjnMQ33jX6aH5W6b4mJbX4BHmw8KKwg5M6kbYrSrDIhrN1r368Wcu711X
qnKAiKD/RP0IHRMV7b/HUGBgoXt1Lo+y8+lknW41gau3JAKNPCz/UFGGyIt+qDXO
Qr1Bxgc82+hRTTrOlzkZbN27ftn3LA==
=dibe
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--
|_|O|_|
|_|_|O| Github: https://github.com/dpurgert
|O|O|O| PGP: 05CA 9A50 3F2E 1335 4DC5 4AEE 8E11 DDF3 1279 A281

On Mon, 24 May 2021 00:58:02 -0000 (UTC), Steve Hayes
<hayesstw@telkomsa.net> wrote:

>On Fri, 21 May 2021 12:31:44 +0000, Dan Purgert wrote:
>
>> Lewis wrote:
>>> That is the usage I first learned, so is what I think of, so it's a bit
>>> odd for me when I see it used as a general term, though otoh, nerd has
>>> also moved much more into a mainstream word.
>>
>> Thank you for confirming the usage as far as you're aware of it, which
>> is chiefly what I was interested in given it's a new word to my
>> experience.
>>
>> It's interesting as it seems strange such a recent word wouldn't have a
>> more definitive origin given its first appearance was only a few decades
>> ago.
>
>The US equivalent seems to be "guru", which, though an older word, seems
>to be newer even than "boffin" in that respect.

I guess it depends on how those in the US use "guru". A "boffin", in
my understanding, is a person in management and usually a person in
management in a technical capacity.

A "guru", in my use, is a person with knowledge of field who is
influential in that field.

An influential financial or stock market advisor could be described as
a "guru" in the US, but I don't think that person would be described
as a "boffin" in the UK.

So, I don't think they're equivalent. I may be wrong. I'm not
familiar with all the uses of "boffin" in the UK.

>
>I associate boffin with the development of electronic warfare -- radar,
>code cracking and the like.
>
>An SAfE equivalent is "fundi", from the Zulu "umfundi", meaning s
>scholar, a learner, or a well-read person.
>
>But a "Computer fundi", a "computer boffin" or a "computer guru" have
>largely overlapping meanings, with "boffin" weighted more towards
>hardware than software, and towards R & D.
--

Tony Cooper Orlando Florida

Steve Hayes:
>> The US equivalent seems to be "guru", which, though an older word, seems
>> to be newer even than "boffin" in that respect.
Tony Cooper:
> I guess it depends on how those in the US use "guru". A "boffin", in
> my understanding, is a person in management and usually a person in
> management in a technical capacity.

I disagree. I say a boffin is a pure techie, one of the "backroom boys"
whose job is to actually produce the technical solutions that management
then takes credit for. Like, say, me.

> A "guru", in my use, is a person with knowledge of field who is >
influential in that field.

I'd say it indicates *deep* knowledge of a technical subject. It's
about being a valuable resource, not about being influential.
For example, once upon a time I had to debug some C code that was
called from a Perl program using Inline::C and was dying on a SIGSEGV.
To do this I had to set things up so I could use gdb with access to
the relevant source in this configuation. I consulted the local Perl
guru and he had no trouble helping me.

> An influential financial or stock market advisor could be described as
> a "guru" in the US...

Oh, *that* usage. That's a different sense of "guru", not the one that's
similar to "boffin".
--
Mark Brader | "Debugging had to be discovered. I can remember
Toronto | the exact instant when I realized that a large part
msb@vex.net | of my life... was going to be spent in finding
| mistakes in my own programs." -- Maurice Wilkes

My text in this article is in the public domain.

In message <10phq5yyauwky$.dlg@djph.net> Dan Purgert <dan@djph.net> wrote:

> Steve Hayes wrote:
>> I associate boffin with the development of electronic warfare -- radar,
>> code cracking and the like.

> It's just my conjecture but I wonder aloud whether "BOF" wasn't a department
> of some technical intelligence sort, "British" "Operations" "Forensics"...

Since it arose in WWII and the origin is unknown it seems unlikely that
the term has anything to do with a particular institution in that way.
More likely it was a name that someone came up with that somehow caught
on without anyone really remembering what the original joke was. A
'boff' is either slang for sex or means to hit someone, so there may be
some link there, but there's no evidence for it.

You can imagine that the radio is fixed by some technical person coming
in, fiddling abut, and then smacking the radio, at which point it works
again. Or simply the image of the people in research simply "whacking
things until they work properly." The problem with my theory is that
boff is not to hit something, but to hit someONE, though what
precisely it meant and how it as used in the pre WWII era is not
something I know.

In war times, terms pop up and are not questioned as to their meaning
because so many terms are code names, so it is perfectly reasonable to
think a term like that could arise without anyone questioning the
origin, since everyone assumed it was some sort of code.

--
If you think that Mick Jagger will still be doing the whole rock star
thing at age fifty, well, then, you are sorely, sorely mistaken.

In message <lecmag9pl54v5eukr41eau31gjn9revn2p@4ax.com> Tony Cooper <tonycooper214@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 24 May 2021 00:58:02 -0000 (UTC), Steve Hayes
> <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> wrote:

>>On Fri, 21 May 2021 12:31:44 +0000, Dan Purgert wrote:
>>
>>> Lewis wrote:
>>>> That is the usage I first learned, so is what I think of, so it's a bit
>>>> odd for me when I see it used as a general term, though otoh, nerd has
>>>> also moved much more into a mainstream word.
>>>
>>> Thank you for confirming the usage as far as you're aware of it, which
>>> is chiefly what I was interested in given it's a new word to my
>>> experience.
>>>
>>> It's interesting as it seems strange such a recent word wouldn't have a
>>> more definitive origin given its first appearance was only a few decades
>>> ago.
>>
>>The US equivalent seems to be "guru", which, though an older word, seems
>>to be newer even than "boffin" in that respect.

> I guess it depends on how those in the US use "guru". A "boffin", in
> my understanding, is a person in management and usually a person in
> management in a technical capacity.

Hmm, that's not how I've usually heard it. It is more like nerd or
"squint" where it is the more low-level technical people, the ones who
actually do the work and really know how things work.

> A "guru", in my use, is a person with knowledge of field who is
> influential in that field.

A guru, at least in tech circles, is someone with all the knowledge.
They do not have to be influential, they're just the ones who really
know the field to a much greater degree than others in the same field.

> An influential financial or stock market advisor could be described as
> a "guru" in the US, but I don't think that person would be described
> as a "boffin" in the UK.

I don't speak financial or stock market speak, so perhaps in that field,
but in technical fields it has always indicated knowledge to me, and
nothing at all to do with influence or power, in fact, almost the
opposite. The guru is not widely known to be the guru, you have to go
find them. And their office may be a tiny room at the end of a corridor
or in a basement of some outbuilding where they have carved a space out
of a closet.

> So, I don't think they're equivalent. I may be wrong. I'm not
> familiar with all the uses of "boffin" in the UK.

Same.

--
"...and Digby considered how much he liked salt..."

On Mon, 24 May 2021 09:40:39 -0000 (UTC), Lewis
<g.kreme@kreme.dont-email.me> wrote:

>In message <10phq5yyauwky$.dlg@djph.net> Dan Purgert <dan@djph.net> wrote:
>
>> Steve Hayes wrote:
>>> I associate boffin with the development of electronic warfare -- radar,
>>> code cracking and the like.
>
>> It's just my conjecture but I wonder aloud whether "BOF" wasn't a department
>> of some technical intelligence sort, "British" "Operations" "Forensics"...
>
>Since it arose in WWII and the origin is unknown it seems unlikely that
>the term has anything to do with a particular institution in that way.
>More likely it was a name that someone came up with that somehow caught
>on without anyone really remembering what the original joke was. A
>'boff' is either slang for sex or means to hit someone, so there may be
>some link there, but there's no evidence for it.
>
>You can imagine that the radio is fixed by some technical person coming
>in, fiddling abut, and then smacking the radio, at which point it works
>again. Or simply the image of the people in research simply "whacking
>things until they work properly." The problem with my theory is that
>boff is not to hit something, but to hit someONE, though what
>precisely it meant and how it as used in the pre WWII era is not
>something I know.
>
>In war times, terms pop up and are not questioned as to their meaning
>because so many terms are code names, so it is perfectly reasonable to
>think a term like that could arise without anyone questioning the
>origin, since everyone assumed it was some sort of code.

Agreed. A crucial feature of a wartime code name is that it should not
in anyway hint at the nature of what it labels.

--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.english.usage)

* Mark Brader:

> Steve Hayes:
>>> The US equivalent seems to be "guru", which, though an older word, seems
>>> to be newer even than "boffin" in that respect.
>
> Tony Cooper:
>> I guess it depends on how those in the US use "guru". A "boffin", in
>> my understanding, is a person in management and usually a person in
>> management in a technical capacity.
>
> I disagree. I say a boffin is a pure techie, one of the "backroom boys"
> whose job is to actually produce the technical solutions that management
> then takes credit for. Like, say, me.
>
>> A "guru", in my use, is a person with knowledge of field who is
>> influential in that field.
>
> I'd say it indicates *deep* knowledge of a technical subject. It's
> about being a valuable resource, not about being influential.
>
> For example, once upon a time I had to debug some C code that was
> called from a Perl program using Inline::C and was dying on a SIGSEGV.
> To do this I had to set things up so I could use gdb with access to
> the relevant source in this configuation. I consulted the local Perl
> guru and he had no trouble helping me.

While I've read of "tech gurus" in my university days, I haven't heard
the word used in all the years I've been working in the field now. I
suspect it's old-fashioned if not gone.

--
Quinn: I'm not very good at talking to boys.
Zoey: It's easy! It's just like talking to girls, but you got to
use smaller words.
-- Zoey 101, Quinn's Date

On Mon, 24 May 2021, at 09:49:59, Lewis <g.kreme@kreme.dont-email.me>
posted:
>In message <lecmag9pl54v5eukr41eau31gjn9revn2p@4ax.com> Tony Cooper
><tonycooper214@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Mon, 24 May 2021 00:58:02 -0000 (UTC), Steve Hayes
>> <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> wrote:
>
>>>On Fri, 21 May 2021 12:31:44 +0000, Dan Purgert wrote:
>>>
>>>> Lewis wrote:
>>>>> That is the usage I first learned, so is what I think of, so it's a bit
>>>>> odd for me when I see it used as a general term, though otoh, nerd has
>>>>> also moved much more into a mainstream word.
>>>>
>>>> Thank you for confirming the usage as far as you're aware of it, which
>>>> is chiefly what I was interested in given it's a new word to my
>>>> experience.
>>>>
>>>> It's interesting as it seems strange such a recent word wouldn't have a
>>>> more definitive origin given its first appearance was only a few decades
>>>> ago.
>>>
>>>The US equivalent seems to be "guru", which, though an older word, seems
>>>to be newer even than "boffin" in that respect.
>
>> I guess it depends on how those in the US use "guru". A "boffin", in
>> my understanding, is a person in management and usually a person in
>> management in a technical capacity.
>
>Hmm, that's not how I've usually heard it. It is more like nerd or
>"squint" where it is the more low-level technical people, the ones who
>actually do the work and really know how things work.
>
>> A "guru", in my use, is a person with knowledge of field who is
>> influential in that field.
>
>A guru, at least in tech circles, is someone with all the knowledge.
>They do not have to be influential, they're just the ones who really
>know the field to a much greater degree than others in the same field.
>
>> An influential financial or stock market advisor could be described as
>> a "guru" in the US, but I don't think that person would be described
>> as a "boffin" in the UK.
>
>I don't speak financial or stock market speak, so perhaps in that field,
>but in technical fields it has always indicated knowledge to me, and
>nothing at all to do with influence or power, in fact, almost the
>opposite. The guru is not widely known to be the guru, you have to go
>find them. And their office may be a tiny room at the end of a corridor
>or in a basement of some outbuilding where they have carved a space out
>of a closet.
>
>> So, I don't think they're equivalent. I may be wrong. I'm not
>> familiar with all the uses of "boffin" in the UK.
>
>Same.
>
The classic UK 'boffin' is not only extremely and eclectically
knowledgeable, as a scientist, but inventive - what the alpha boffin
does is find workable solutions to apparently intractable technical
problems.

Two examples - Barnes Wallis who came up with the 'dambusters' bouncing
bomb in WWII, and Charles Fraser-Smith, the original of 'Q' as Ian
Fleming borrowed and adapted him for James Bond.

Beta and gamma boffins would also exist, of course. Dunno if delta could
ever make it to true boffinhood.
--
Paul

Peter Duncanson:
> Agreed. A crucial feature of a wartime code name is that it should not
> in anyway hint at the nature of what it labels.

This is where I point out that "Enigma" was not a code name, but a brand
name. The machine was originally introduced for commercial use before
the war.

I hope "anyway" instead of "any way" was a typo, by the way.
--
Mark Brader, Toronto "... people are *always* doing stuff ...
msb@vex.net that I wish were typos" --Marcy Thompson

My text in this article is in the public domain.

On Mon, 24 May 2021 15:33:56 -0500, msb@vex.net (Mark Brader) wrote:

>Peter Duncanson:
>> Agreed. A crucial feature of a wartime code name is that it should not
>> in anyway hint at the nature of what it labels.
>
>This is where I point out that "Enigma" was not a code name, but a brand
>name. The machine was originally introduced for commercial use before
>the war.
>
>I hope "anyway" instead of "any way" was a typo, by the way.

'Twas.

--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.english.usage)

* Paul Wolff:

> The classic UK 'boffin' is not only extremely and eclectically
> knowledgeable, as a scientist, but inventive - what the alpha boffin
> does is find workable solutions to apparently intractable technical
> problems.
>
> Two examples - Barnes Wallis who came up with the 'dambusters' bouncing
> bomb in WWII, and Charles Fraser-Smith, the original of 'Q' as Ian
> Fleming borrowed and adapted him for James Bond.
>
> Beta and gamma boffins would also exist, of course. Dunno if delta could
> ever make it to true boffinhood.

Nothing left but joining the Delta Force, then.

--
A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against
his government.
-- Edward Abbey

On Mon, 24 May 2021 01:03:15 -0400, Tony Cooper
<tonycooper214@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Mon, 24 May 2021 00:58:02 -0000 (UTC), Steve Hayes
><hayesstw@telkomsa.net> wrote:
>>The US equivalent seems to be "guru", which, though an older word, seems
>>to be newer even than "boffin" in that respect.
>
>I guess it depends on how those in the US use "guru". A "boffin", in
>my understanding, is a person in management and usually a person in
>management in a technical capacity.
>
>A "guru", in my use, is a person with knowledge of field who is
>influential in that field.
>
>An influential financial or stock market advisor could be described as
>a "guru" in the US, but I don't think that person would be described
>as a "boffin" in the UK.

Then I seem to have misunderstood the US usage of "guru". In my
understanding a computer guru was your "go-to" guy when something goes
wrong with your computer.

And a "boffin" is very far indeed from management. A boffin is in the
lab surrounded by test tubes and retorts and wearing a white coat, the
hand-on type.

Here in South Africa we have been having huge problems as a result of
the tendency in so-called "SOEs" ("State-Owned Enterprises") to
replace engineers with MBAs and other management types, which has the
effect of sidelining the boffins. As a result of such things we
usually have at least two days in the month of "load shedding" --
rolling blackouts in the electricity supply.

And passenger trains have stopped running altogether. When engineers
ordered locomotives, they would run. When MBAs ordered them, they were
too long for the platforms or too high for the overhead wires (which
have now all been stolen anyway -- the joys of outsourcing and
privatisation -- which the MBAs came up with. And the boffins seem to
be a dying breed.

>
>So, I don't think they're equivalent. I may be wrong. I'm not
>familiar with all the uses of "boffin" in the UK.
>
>
>>
>>I associate boffin with the development of electronic warfare -- radar,
>>code cracking and the like.
>>
>>An SAfE equivalent is "fundi", from the Zulu "umfundi", meaning s
>>scholar, a learner, or a well-read person.
>>
>>But a "Computer fundi", a "computer boffin" or a "computer guru" have
>>largely overlapping meanings, with "boffin" weighted more towards
>>hardware than software, and towards R & D.

--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

Tony Cooper:
>> An influential financial or stock market advisor could be described as
>> a "guru" in the US, but I don't think that person would be described
>> as a "boffin" in the UK.
Steve Hayes:
> Then I seem to have misunderstood the US usage of "guru". In my
> understanding a computer guru was your "go-to" guy when something goes
> wrong with your computer.

As I explained, Tony is using a different sense of the word.
> And a "boffin" is very far indeed from management. A boffin is in the
> lab surrounded by test tubes and retorts and wearing a white coat, the
> hand-on type.

Indeed.
--
Mark Brader | "I dream of a better world where chickens can cross the road
Toronto | without having their motives questioned."
msb@vex.net | --not Bill Murray

In message <5mu3bglieo3uu53nls83ginh9pdoqqoq3k@4ax.com> Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> wrote:
> On Mon, 24 May 2021 01:03:15 -0400, Tony Cooper
> <tonycooper214@gmail.com> wrote:

>>On Mon, 24 May 2021 00:58:02 -0000 (UTC), Steve Hayes
>><hayesstw@telkomsa.net> wrote:
>>>The US equivalent seems to be "guru", which, though an older word, seems
>>>to be newer even than "boffin" in that respect.
>>
>>I guess it depends on how those in the US use "guru". A "boffin", in
>>my understanding, is a person in management and usually a person in
>>management in a technical capacity.
>>
>>A "guru", in my use, is a person with knowledge of field who is
>>influential in that field.
>>
>>An influential financial or stock market advisor could be described as
>>a "guru" in the US, but I don't think that person would be described
>>as a "boffin" in the UK.

> Then I seem to have misunderstood the US usage of "guru". In my
> understanding a computer guru was your "go-to" guy when something goes
> wrong with your computer.

That's the usage I am familiar with, but it would not at all surprise me
to learn it has a very different meaning in non-tech circles.

--
I've got a sonic screwdriver!
Yeah? I've got a chair!
.... Chairs *are* useful.

On 29/05/21 19:39, Steve Hayes wrote:

> And a "boffin" is very far indeed from management. A boffin is in the
> lab surrounded by test tubes and retorts and wearing a white coat,
> the hand-on type.
>
> Here in South Africa we have been having huge problems as a result of
> the tendency in so-called "SOEs" ("State-Owned Enterprises") to
> replace engineers with MBAs and other management types, which has the
> effect of sidelining the boffins. As a result of such things we
> usually have at least two days in the month of "load shedding" --
> rolling blackouts in the electricity supply.
>
> And passenger trains have stopped running altogether. When engineers
> ordered locomotives, they would run. When MBAs ordered them, they
> were too long for the platforms or too high for the overhead wires
> (which have now all been stolen anyway -- the joys of outsourcing and
> privatisation -- which the MBAs came up with. And the boffins seem to
> be a dying breed.

I'll have to think about whether that can explain our own problems. We
too have had problems with trains that don't fit the platforms, and now
we have ferries that can't fit under bridges. I've always thought that
that was because of politicians who believe that cheap imports are a
better deal than locally-produced products, but perhaps it's also
because the experts are being excluded from the decisions.

--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org

In article <s8t6hg$e47$1@dont-email.me>,
Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
> On 29/05/21 19:39, Steve Hayes wrote:

> > And a "boffin" is very far indeed from management. A boffin is in the
> > lab surrounded by test tubes and retorts and wearing a white coat,
> > the hand-on type.
> >
> > Here in South Africa we have been having huge problems as a result of
> > the tendency in so-called "SOEs" ("State-Owned Enterprises") to
> > replace engineers with MBAs and other management types, which has the
> > effect of sidelining the boffins. As a result of such things we
> > usually have at least two days in the month of "load shedding" --
> > rolling blackouts in the electricity supply.
> >
> > And passenger trains have stopped running altogether. When engineers
> > ordered locomotives, they would run. When MBAs ordered them, they
> > were too long for the platforms or too high for the overhead wires
> > (which have now all been stolen anyway -- the joys of outsourcing and
> > privatisation -- which the MBAs came up with. And the boffins seem to
> > be a dying breed.

> I'll have to think about whether that can explain our own problems. We
> too have had problems with trains that don't fit the platforms, and now
> we have ferries that can't fit under bridges. I've always thought that
> that was because of politicians who believe that cheap imports are a
> better deal than locally-produced products, but perhaps it's also
> because the experts are being excluded from the decisions.

on a smaller scale, I met this in 1990. T^he BBC had a new office block
built which was to British Metric (30cm) . Office furniture was sourced in
the US and made to an imperial foot standard (30.5cms). Nothing fitted
where it was supposed to.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

On Sat, 29 May 2021 10:39:03 +0200, Steve Hayes
<hayesstw@telkomsa.net> wrote:

>On Mon, 24 May 2021 01:03:15 -0400, Tony Cooper
><tonycooper214@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 24 May 2021 00:58:02 -0000 (UTC), Steve Hayes
>><hayesstw@telkomsa.net> wrote:
>>>The US equivalent seems to be "guru", which, though an older word, seems
>>>to be newer even than "boffin" in that respect.
>>
>>I guess it depends on how those in the US use "guru". A "boffin", in
>>my understanding, is a person in management and usually a person in
>>management in a technical capacity.
>>
>>A "guru", in my use, is a person with knowledge of field who is
>>influential in that field.
>>
>>An influential financial or stock market advisor could be described as
>>a "guru" in the US, but I don't think that person would be described
>>as a "boffin" in the UK.
>
>Then I seem to have misunderstood the US usage of "guru". In my
>understanding a computer guru was your "go-to" guy when something goes
>wrong with your computer.
>

The problem with your question is in the use of "The US equivalent" as
if there is one, and only one, way "guru" is used in the US.

There are those who use "guru" to mean "the go-to guy when something
goes wrong with your computer", and some of those people restrict the
word to describing a person who is the all-knowing expert in
computer-related issues.

My comment that a "guru" is a person with knowledge in the field and
who is influential in the field was rejected by some because
"knowledge" alone is not enough and the person need not be
influential.

Yet, I give you Kim Komando: https://www.kgoradio.com/kimkomando/

where it says Kim has evolved into a national digital guru. “It’s not
about techies and computer-troubleshooting anymore,” she says. “It’s
now about a lifestyle – the lifestyle of a digital age.”

The type of "techie" help Kim provides can be seen at her website:
https://www.komando.com/

While there are thousands of subscribers to her column and her radio
programs who refer to her as a "guru", I assure you that people like
Mark Brader do not accord her that title.

I also referred to "financial gurus"; people who are influential in
offering financial advice. That was said to be a "different sense" of
the word. When there's a common different sense, then "equivalent" is
ruled out.

When we have some who use "guru" to mean someone who provides
information like how to choose the best anti-virus app, to mean
someone who provides stock market tips, and to mean someone who is the
go-to guy on how to debug some C code in a Perl program, then you
have no US equivalent. You have multiple understandings of what a
guru is.

I will concede the point on "boffin" not applying to those in
management of a technical firm. White coats, not suits, are worn by
boffins.
--

Tony Cooper Orlando Florida

Tony Cooper:
> Yet, I give you Kim Komando: https://www.kgoradio.com/kimkomando/
...
> While there are thousands of subscribers to her column and her radio
> programs who refer to her as a "guru", I assure you that people like
> Mark Brader do not accord her that title.

I might if I knew anything about her. But I would not be using the word
in the same sense that I used previously in the thread.
--
Mark Brader, Toronto | "You can write a small letter to Grandma
msb@vex.net | in the filename." -- Forbes Burkowski

On Sat, 29 May 2021 20:54:37 +1100, Peter Moylan
<peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:

>On 29/05/21 19:39, Steve Hayes wrote:
>
>> And a "boffin" is very far indeed from management. A boffin is in the
>> lab surrounded by test tubes and retorts and wearing a white coat,
>> the hand-on type.
>>
>> Here in South Africa we have been having huge problems as a result of
>> the tendency in so-called "SOEs" ("State-Owned Enterprises") to
>> replace engineers with MBAs and other management types, which has the
>> effect of sidelining the boffins. As a result of such things we
>> usually have at least two days in the month of "load shedding" --
>> rolling blackouts in the electricity supply.
>>
>> And passenger trains have stopped running altogether. When engineers
>> ordered locomotives, they would run. When MBAs ordered them, they
>> were too long for the platforms or too high for the overhead wires
>> (which have now all been stolen anyway -- the joys of outsourcing and
>> privatisation -- which the MBAs came up with. And the boffins seem to
>> be a dying breed.
>
>I'll have to think about whether that can explain our own problems. We
>too have had problems with trains that don't fit the platforms, and now
>we have ferries that can't fit under bridges. I've always thought that
>that was because of politicians who believe that cheap imports are a
>better deal than locally-produced products, but perhaps it's also
>because the experts are being excluded from the decisions.

All part of the same phenomenon, I think -- boffins being overruled by
bureaucrats.

Cheap imports with fat kickbacks win over better local products
without the kickbacks. And the cheap imports prove more expensive when
you add the cost of the kickbacks.

--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

On Sat, 29 May 2021 09:45:16 -0400, Tony Cooper
<tonycooper214@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Sat, 29 May 2021 10:39:03 +0200, Steve Hayes
><hayesstw@telkomsa.net> wrote:
>>Then I seem to have misunderstood the US usage of "guru". In my
>>understanding a computer guru was your "go-to" guy when something goes
>>wrong with your computer.
>>
>
>The problem with your question is in the use of "The US equivalent" as
>if there is one, and only one, way "guru" is used in the US.
>
>There are those who use "guru" to mean "the go-to guy when something
>goes wrong with your computer", and some of those people restrict the
>word to describing a person who is the all-knowing expert in
>computer-related issues.
>
>My comment that a "guru" is a person with knowledge in the field and
>who is influential in the field was rejected by some because
>"knowledge" alone is not enough and the person need not be
>influential.
>
>Yet, I give you Kim Komando: https://www.kgoradio.com/kimkomando/
>
>where it says Kim has evolved into a national digital guru. “It’s not
>about techies and computer-troubleshooting anymore,” she says. “It’s
>now about a lifestyle – the lifestyle of a digital age.”

How does that use of "guru" differ from the AmE term "wonk"?

>
>The type of "techie" help Kim provides can be seen at her website:
>https://www.komando.com/
>
>While there are thousands of subscribers to her column and her radio
>programs who refer to her as a "guru", I assure you that people like
>Mark Brader do not accord her that title.
>
>I also referred to "financial gurus"; people who are influential in
>offering financial advice. That was said to be a "different sense" of
>the word. When there's a common different sense, then "equivalent" is
>ruled out.
>
>When we have some who use "guru" to mean someone who provides
>information like how to choose the best anti-virus app, to mean
>someone who provides stock market tips, and to mean someone who is the
>go-to guy on how to debug some C code in a Perl program, then you
>have no US equivalent. You have multiple understandings of what a
>guru is.
>
>I will concede the point on "boffin" not applying to those in
>management of a technical firm. White coats, not suits, are worn by
>boffins.

Yes, "boffin" is more narrowly technical than the AmE "guru" or the
SAfE "fundi", but when qualified by some technical term, like
comp[uter, I think they are all more-or-less -- a computer boffin is
much the same as a computer guru or a computer fundi. Buit I don't
think one would talkn of a "financial boffin".

But I would still say that "guru" refers to expertise rather than
influence, in whatever field.

--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

Earlier, I (Mark Brader) defined one sense of "guru" thus:
> ...it indicates *deep* knowledge of a technical subject. It's
> about being a valuable resource...
>
> For example, once upon a time I had to debug some C code that was
> called from a Perl program using Inline::C and was dying on a SIGSEGV.
> To do this I had to set things up so I could use gdb with access to
> the relevant source in this configuation. I consulted the local Perl
> guru and he had no trouble helping me.

But I think of this as a usage *among techies* (or boffins, if you
prefer); so I was surprised just now to see it in a newspaper headline.

Our provincial chief medical officer recently announced his retirement
(which he had postponed because of the pandemic), and here is the
Toronto "Globe and Mail" reporting on who will replace him:

| Meet Ontario's incoming top doctor Kieran Moore,
| a disease-surveillance guru

To confirm what sense of "guru" is being used in the headline, I'll
quote the first paragraph:

| The doctor slated to take over for beleaguered Ontario Chief
| Medical of Health David Williams is known for a mastery of disease
| surveillance, pandemic statistics and YouTube -- a resume that has
| received near-universal approval from the province's public-health
| community.

(The story is at
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/article-ontarios-incoming-chief-medical-officer-of-health-known-for-his-swift/
if you are allowed to read it.
--
Mark Brader, Toronto | "group this in post-top usually don't we"
msb@vex.net | -- Mike Lyle

My text in this article is in the public domain.

In article <e8v8bgdvr0v30b2rqubj93b148jstr2jp1@4ax.com>,
hayesstw@telkomsa.net says...
> Yes, "boffin" is more narrowly technical than the AmE "guru" or the
> SAfE "fundi", but when qualified by some technical term, like
> comp[uter, I think they are all more-or-less -- a computer boffin is
> much the same as a computer guru or a computer fundi. Buit I don't
> think one would talkn of a "financial boffin".
>
> But I would still say that "guru" refers to expertise rather than
> influence, in whatever field.
>
I would say guru implies an expert who teaches, instructs, mentors
students/ followers. Boffin doesn't. Boffins exist in their own little
sphere, their field of expertise sometimes unrecognised let alone
appreciated.

Janet

On Mon, 31 May 2021 11:29:20 +0100, Janet <nobody@home.com> wrote:

>In article <e8v8bgdvr0v30b2rqubj93b148jstr2jp1@4ax.com>,
>hayesstw@telkomsa.net says...
>> Yes, "boffin" is more narrowly technical than the AmE "guru" or the
>> SAfE "fundi", but when qualified by some technical term, like
>> comp[uter, I think they are all more-or-less -- a computer boffin is
>> much the same as a computer guru or a computer fundi. Buit I don't
>> think one would talkn of a "financial boffin".
>>
>> But I would still say that "guru" refers to expertise rather than
>> influence, in whatever field.
>>
> I would say guru implies an expert who teaches, instructs, mentors
>students/ followers. Boffin doesn't. Boffins exist in their own little
>sphere, their field of expertise sometimes unrecognised let alone
>appreciated.
>
> Janet

Yes. I was having similar thoughts.

--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.english.usage)

On Mon, 31 May 2021 08:15:13 +0200, Steve Hayes
<hayesstw@telkomsa.net> wrote:

>On Sat, 29 May 2021 09:45:16 -0400, Tony Cooper
><tonycooper214@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>On Sat, 29 May 2021 10:39:03 +0200, Steve Hayes
>><hayesstw@telkomsa.net> wrote:
>>>Then I seem to have misunderstood the US usage of "guru". In my
>>>understanding a computer guru was your "go-to" guy when something goes
>>>wrong with your computer.
>>>
>>
>>The problem with your question is in the use of "The US equivalent" as
>>if there is one, and only one, way "guru" is used in the US.
>>
>>There are those who use "guru" to mean "the go-to guy when something
>>goes wrong with your computer", and some of those people restrict the
>>word to describing a person who is the all-knowing expert in
>>computer-related issues.
>>
>>My comment that a "guru" is a person with knowledge in the field and
>>who is influential in the field was rejected by some because
>>"knowledge" alone is not enough and the person need not be
>>influential.
>>
>>Yet, I give you Kim Komando: https://www.kgoradio.com/kimkomando/
>>
>>where it says Kim has evolved into a national digital guru. “It’s not
>>about techies and computer-troubleshooting anymore,” she says. “It’s
>>now about a lifestyle – the lifestyle of a digital age.”
>
>How does that use of "guru" differ from the AmE term "wonk"?

"Guru" is used much more widely in the US than "wonk". The most
frequent usage - from what I've seen - is in the term "policy wonk".
That describes a politician or political advisor who gives a lot of
attention to the details of political policies or strategies.

When congress votes on a budget issue, some congressmen vote based on
what their party leaders want and have very little idea of what is in
the budget bill. A policy wonk, though, will know every detail of the
bill and what effect the details will have. (He or she will still
vote along party lines, though)

I can't come up with any other common usages of "wonk" in the US. I'm
sure they exist, but I don't think the word is used very much here.

--

Tony Cooper Orlando Florida