I have a bathroom sink drain that has very often run slow to a stop over
the years. Many times in the past, I was able to plunge it and it would
run fine again, but for stubborn times I have one of those smal1 25 foot
drill or hand operated snakes. Since the pipes are old, I always used
the snake manually. I used it again today when the plunging and Liquid
Plumber didn't help, but, despite using the full 25 foot length, the
drain is still running slowly. Better than not at all, but it should be
running much faster after snaking. Any ideas why snaking didn't help
that much this time? Thanks.

On 4/11/2022 12:40 PM, JJ wrote:
> I have a bathroom sink drain that has very often run slow to a stop over
> the years.  Many times in the past, I was able to plunge it and it would
> run fine again, but for stubborn times I have one of those smal1 25 foot
> drill or hand operated snakes.  Since the pipes are old, I always used
> the snake manually.  I used it again today when the plunging and Liquid
> Plumber didn't help, but, despite using the full 25 foot length, the
> drain is still running slowly.  Better than not at all, but it should be
> running much faster after snaking.  Any ideas why snaking didn't help
> that much this time?  Thanks.

Maybe you've got an obstructed vent in the sink itself or an obstructed
vent stack in the drain line?

On 4/11/22 12:52, Retirednoguilt wrote:
> On 4/11/2022 12:40 PM, JJ wrote:
>> I have a bathroom sink drain that has very often run slow to a stop
>> over the years.  Many times in the past, I was able to plunge it and
>> it would run fine again, but for stubborn times I have one of those
>> smal1 25 foot drill or hand operated snakes.  Since the pipes are old,
>> I always used the snake manually.  I used it again today when the
>> plunging and Liquid Plumber didn't help, but, despite using the full
>> 25 foot length, the drain is still running slowly.  Better than not at
>> all, but it should be running much faster after snaking.  Any ideas
>> why snaking didn't help that much this time?  Thanks.
>
> Maybe you've got an obstructed vent in the sink itself or an obstructed
> vent stack in the drain line?
Hmmm, that's very interesting. I looked up some info on vents. Never
even considered that could be an issue. Well, nothing abnormal is going
on, no rotten egg smells, gurgling, etc and all other drains run
normally. I suppose I could climb the roof and see if there's vacuum,
but I am on the only one in the house.

On 4/11/22 13:03, JJ wrote:
> On 4/11/22 12:52, Retirednoguilt wrote:
>> On 4/11/2022 12:40 PM, JJ wrote:
>>> I have a bathroom sink drain that has very often run slow to a stop
>>> over the years.  Many times in the past, I was able to plunge it and
>>> it would run fine again, but for stubborn times I have one of those
>>> smal1 25 foot drill or hand operated snakes.  Since the pipes are
>>> old, I always used the snake manually.  I used it again today when
>>> the plunging and Liquid Plumber didn't help, but, despite using the
>>> full 25 foot length, the drain is still running slowly.  Better than
>>> not at all, but it should be running much faster after snaking.  Any
>>> ideas why snaking didn't help that much this time?  Thanks.
>>
>> Maybe you've got an obstructed vent in the sink itself or an
>> obstructed vent stack in the drain line?
>
> Hmmm, that's very interesting.  I looked up some info on vents.  Never
> even considered that could be an issue.  Well, nothing abnormal is going
> on, no rotten egg smells, gurgling, etc and all other drains run
> normally.  I suppose I could climb the roof and see if there's vacuum,
> but I am on the only one in the house.
I have an idea. If I tie a plastic bag around the vent (using a bungee
or similar stretch rope to hold the bag around the vent pipe), flush the
commode, and then watch the bag from the ground, will it be pulled
toward the vent? Is it hazardous to leave in place for this one time
since I wouldn't be able to remove it until back on the roof?

On 4/11/2022 1:03 PM, JJ wrote:
> On 4/11/22 12:52, Retirednoguilt wrote:
>> On 4/11/2022 12:40 PM, JJ wrote:
>>> I have a bathroom sink drain that has very often run slow to a stop
>>> over the years.  Many times in the past, I was able to plunge it and
>>> it would run fine again, but for stubborn times I have one of those
>>> smal1 25 foot drill or hand operated snakes.  Since the pipes are
>>> old, I always used the snake manually.  I used it again today when
>>> the plunging and Liquid Plumber didn't help, but, despite using the
>>> full 25 foot length, the drain is still running slowly.  Better than
>>> not at all, but it should be running much faster after snaking.  Any
>>> ideas why snaking didn't help that much this time?  Thanks.
>>
>> Maybe you've got an obstructed vent in the sink itself or an
>> obstructed vent stack in the drain line?
>
> Hmmm, that's very interesting.  I looked up some info on vents.  Never
> even considered that could be an issue.  Well, nothing abnormal is going
> on, no rotten egg smells, gurgling, etc and all other drains run
> normally.  I suppose I could climb the roof and see if there's vacuum,
> but I am on the only one in the house.

I didn't suggest that a trap was dry. Air vents aren't to prevent
sewage smells from coming back up through the drains. Traps do that,
unless the drain has not been used for so long that all the water in the
trap evaporates or the trap develops a leak that lets the trap's water out.

If all your other drains run normally, I'd focus first on the small hole
near the top of the sink known as the overflow drain hole. That hole is
supposed to connect to the drain pipe at the bottom of the sink via a
channel inside the body of the sink. It serves 2 purposes. It helps
prevent overflow from an over-filled sink, and allows the sink to drain
faster by providing a local escape path for the air in the drain pipe
between the sink and the trap. If it is even partially clogged, the
sink is likely to drain more slowly. Look on the web for different ways
to unclog a sink's overflow drain hole. It's worth a try to find out if
doing so resolves your problem.

On Mon, 11 Apr 2022 12:40:19 -0400, JJ <JJ@flavitron.net> wrote:

>I have a bathroom sink drain that has very often run slow to a stop over
>the years. Many times in the past, I was able to plunge it and it would
>run fine again, but for stubborn times I have one of those smal1 25 foot
>drill or hand operated snakes. Since the pipes are old, I always used
>the snake manually. I used it again today when the plunging and Liquid
>Plumber didn't help, but, despite using the full 25 foot length, the
>drain is still running slowly. Better than not at all, but it should be
>running much faster after snaking. Any ideas why snaking didn't help
>that much this time? Thanks.

OK, you twisted my arm - I'll share my < patent pending >
bathroom sink/tub/shower tool for removing hair ...
Find one of those ~ 18 - 24 inch zip ties < cable tie >
and slice a few angled cuts into the pointy end - which you will
stick down the drain and jig around until the cuts snag some hair
and you pull it out and carefully grab the hair and pull
out the big wad of hair that the snagged hairs are attached to.
Repeat a few times ; rinse off the magic tool for future use.
Warning - the stuff that clogs drains is disgusting -
it's not my fault.
John T.

On Monday, April 11, 2022 at 12:41:08 PM UTC-4, JJ wrote:
> I have a bathroom sink drain that has very often run slow to a stop over
> the years. Many times in the past, I was able to plunge it and it would
> run fine again, but for stubborn times I have one of those smal1 25 foot
> drill or hand operated snakes. Since the pipes are old, I always used
> the snake manually. I used it again today when the plunging and Liquid
> Plumber didn't help, but, despite using the full 25 foot length, the
> drain is still running slowly. Better than not at all, but it should be
> running much faster after snaking. Any ideas why snaking didn't help
> that much this time? Thanks.

Just tossing out ideas...

Are you sure that the snake went where you wanted it to go?

Even though you got 25' down the drain, the snake itself might have found a vent
or connection to another pipe. You may have gotten some of the clog before the
snake wandered off on it's own, thus your "better than not at all" results

You may also have just pushed stuff out of the way and not really cleared it, thus
you "better than not at all" results. Might be worth another snake session or two.

Are there any other fixtures that use that same drain that aren't having any trouble?
That might help you isolate the clog. i.e. you might not even need 25', meaning you
didn't really clear the clog completely.

Can you considered a drain blaster or are you afraid that your pipes are too old?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MzmEy7cOCPg

P.S. Overuse of chemical cleaners, especially on older pipes, may be detrimental to
the pipe's longevity.

On 4/11/22 13:43, Marilyn Manson wrote:
> On Monday, April 11, 2022 at 12:41:08 PM UTC-4, JJ wrote:
>> I have a bathroom sink drain that has very often run slow to a stop over
>> the years. Many times in the past, I was able to plunge it and it would
>> run fine again, but for stubborn times I have one of those smal1 25 foot
>> drill or hand operated snakes. Since the pipes are old, I always used
>> the snake manually. I used it again today when the plunging and Liquid
>> Plumber didn't help, but, despite using the full 25 foot length, the
>> drain is still running slowly. Better than not at all, but it should be
>> running much faster after snaking. Any ideas why snaking didn't help
>> that much this time? Thanks.
>
> Just tossing out ideas...
>
> Are you sure that the snake went where you wanted it to go?
>
> Even though you got 25' down the drain, the snake itself might have found a vent
> or connection to another pipe. You may have gotten some of the clog before the
> snake wandered off on it's own, thus your "better than not at all" results
>
> You may also have just pushed stuff out of the way and not really cleared it, thus
> you "better than not at all" results. Might be worth another snake session or two.
>
> Are there any other fixtures that use that same drain that aren't having any trouble?
> That might help you isolate the clog. i.e. you might not even need 25', meaning you
> didn't really clear the clog completely.
>
> Can you considered a drain blaster or are you afraid that your pipes are too old?
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MzmEy7cOCPg
>
> P.S. Overuse of chemical cleaners, especially on older pipes, may be detrimental to
> the pipe's longevity.
>

Thanks, I appreciate the thoughts. It's quite possible that the snake
didn't go exactly where it needed to. It's hard to do this manually,
for whatever reason, and I don't like doing it. I can only feed small
amounts at a time and also retract just tiny amounts while winding. I'm
sure having the trap in place doesn't help which makes it all that much
tougher. The snake actually completely exited the winder today and I
had to find out on Youtube how to rethread it. I've never gone that far
in the past.

I'll have to look into the drain blaster, thanks. Well, the house is
about 65 years old with cast iron and terra cotta main lines. The
drains have always been troublesome because the developers planted trees
right over the sewer line. Fortunately, I treat the main twice a year
with copper sulfate and that has kept the roots away for 6 years now.

On Tue, 12 Apr 2022 02:40:19 +1000, JJ <JJ@flavitron.net> wrote:

> I have a bathroom sink drain that has very often run slow to a stop over
> the years. Many times in the past, I was able to plunge it and it would
> run fine again, but for stubborn times I have one of those smal1 25 foot
> drill or hand operated snakes. Since the pipes are old, I always used
> the snake manually. I used it again today when the plunging and Liquid
> Plumber didn't help, but, despite using the full 25 foot length, the
> drain is still running slowly. Better than not at all, but it should be
> running much faster after snaking. Any ideas why snaking didn't help
> that much this time? Thanks.

Likely the blockage is further down than 25 feet.

On 4/11/2022 1:52:44 PM, JJ wrote:
> The drains have always been troublesome because the developers planted trees right over the sewer line.  Fortunately, I treat the main twice a year with copper sulfate and that has kept the roots away for 6 years now.

Between the headache of leaves in the gutters, raking leaves, picking up sticks before I could mow,
the threat of a tree falling on the roof, shade causing moss to grow on the roof, mildew on the siding,
roots buckling the driveway and root damage to sewer line, I had all the gobdammed trees removed.

Expensive but problem solved!

On Monday, April 11, 2022 at 3:04:37 PM UTC-4, Bob wrote:
> On 4/11/2022 1:52:44 PM, JJ wrote:
> > The drains have always been troublesome because the developers planted trees right over the sewer line. Fortunately, I treat the main twice a year with copper sulfate and that has kept the roots away for 6 years now.
> Between the headache of leaves in the gutters, raking leaves, picking up sticks before I could mow,
> the threat of a tree falling on the roof, shade causing moss to grow on the roof, mildew on the siding,
> roots buckling the driveway and root damage to sewer line, I had all the gobdammed trees removed.
>
> Expensive but problem solved!

Removing our trees would cause me bigger problems *inside* the house than any problems
they cause outside, if you catch my drift.

On 04/11/2022 10:40 AM, JJ wrote:
> I have a bathroom sink drain that has very often run slow to a stop over
> the years. Many times in the past, I was able to plunge it and it would
> run fine again, but for stubborn times I have one of those smal1 25 foot
> drill or hand operated snakes. Since the pipes are old, I always used
> the snake manually. I used it again today when the plunging and Liquid
> Plumber didn't help, but, despite using the full 25 foot length, the
> drain is still running slowly. Better than not at all, but it should be
> running much faster after snaking. Any ideas why snaking didn't help
> that much this time?

Does it tee into another line? I'm surprised you can get 25' of snake
without hitting something.

On 4/11/2022 3:03 PM, Bob wrote:
> On 4/11/2022 1:52:44 PM, JJ wrote:
>> The drains have always been troublesome because the developers planted
>> trees right over the sewer line.  Fortunately, I treat the main twice
>> a year with copper sulfate and that has kept the roots away for 6
>> years now.
>
> Between the headache of leaves in the gutters, raking leaves, picking up
> sticks before I could mow,
> the threat of a tree falling on the roof, shade causing moss to grow on
> the roof, mildew on the siding,
> roots buckling the driveway and root damage to sewer line, I had all the
> gobdammed trees removed.
>
> Expensive but problem solved!

We solved those same problems by moving to a condo. We added up all the
costs of repairing/maintaining the gutters, leaves, roof, driveway, etc.
compared to the cost of our condo monthly association fees and given
that at our condo we don't pay separately for trash collection, hot and
cold water, or for phone/cable tv/ internet, and we have cheaper
electrical bills on account of better HVAC and insulation, and cheaper
condo owners insurance than homeowners policy, and only gave up about
150 square ft. of living space, we actually are saving more than
$200/month and all the hassles of owning a single family detached house.
Furthermore, we have the great convenience of excellent public
transportation only 1 block from our entryway instead of 1.5 miles away
from our old residence. We now spend all our time doing what we like
rather than doing what we needed to do to maintain the house.

On Tuesday, April 12, 2022 at 9:45:57 AM UTC-4, Retirednoguilt wrote:
> On 4/11/2022 3:03 PM, Bob wrote:
> > On 4/11/2022 1:52:44 PM, JJ wrote:
> >> The drains have always been troublesome because the developers planted
> >> trees right over the sewer line. Fortunately, I treat the main twice
> >> a year with copper sulfate and that has kept the roots away for 6
> >> years now.
> >
> > Between the headache of leaves in the gutters, raking leaves, picking up
> > sticks before I could mow,
> > the threat of a tree falling on the roof, shade causing moss to grow on
> > the roof, mildew on the siding,
> > roots buckling the driveway and root damage to sewer line, I had all the
> > gobdammed trees removed.
> >
> > Expensive but problem solved!
> We solved those same problems by moving to a condo. We added up all the
> costs of repairing/maintaining the gutters, leaves, roof, driveway, etc.
> compared to the cost of our condo monthly association fees and given
> that at our condo we don't pay separately for trash collection, hot and
> cold water, or for phone/cable tv/ internet, and we have cheaper
> electrical bills on account of better HVAC and insulation, and cheaper
> condo owners insurance than homeowners policy, and only gave up about
> 150 square ft. of living space, we actually are saving more than
> $200/month and all the hassles of owning a single family detached house.
> Furthermore, we have the great convenience of excellent public
> transportation only 1 block from our entryway instead of 1.5 miles away
> from our old residence. We now spend all our time doing what we like
> rather than doing what we needed to do to maintain the house.

I don't disagree with anything you've said, but for some us doing the maintenance
*is* what we like to do. I love puttering around my own house, fixing/changing things
as I see fit.

SWMBO loves her flower gardens and I like building flower boxes and outdoor stuff
for her. I guarantee that some of the things we've done to our yard wouldn't be allowed
if there was an HOA or condo association. Nothing garish...we constantly get compliments
from our neighbors, but from what I've heard about "associations", I'm sure that we don't
fit the mold. Having to get everything approved before hand? No thanks.

There were some posts a few weeks ago from a condo-guy that isn't allowed to change a
plumbing shut-off. He has to call - and pay for - a licensed plumber. No thanks.

I'm pretty sure I'd lose my workshop, eliminating my woodworking hobby. Is that true? Now
that would really suck.

On Monday, April 11, 2022 at 1:52:50 PM UTC-4, JJ wrote:
> On 4/11/22 13:43, Marilyn Manson wrote:
> > On Monday, April 11, 2022 at 12:41:08 PM UTC-4, JJ wrote:
> >> I have a bathroom sink drain that has very often run slow to a stop over
> >> the years. Many times in the past, I was able to plunge it and it would
> >> run fine again, but for stubborn times I have one of those smal1 25 foot
> >> drill or hand operated snakes. Since the pipes are old, I always used
> >> the snake manually. I used it again today when the plunging and Liquid
> >> Plumber didn't help, but, despite using the full 25 foot length, the
> >> drain is still running slowly. Better than not at all, but it should be
> >> running much faster after snaking. Any ideas why snaking didn't help
> >> that much this time? Thanks.
> >
> > Just tossing out ideas...
> >
> > Are you sure that the snake went where you wanted it to go?
> >
> > Even though you got 25' down the drain, the snake itself might have found a vent
> > or connection to another pipe. You may have gotten some of the clog before the
> > snake wandered off on it's own, thus your "better than not at all" results
> >
> > You may also have just pushed stuff out of the way and not really cleared it, thus
> > you "better than not at all" results. Might be worth another snake session or two.
> >
> > Are there any other fixtures that use that same drain that aren't having any trouble?
> > That might help you isolate the clog. i.e. you might not even need 25', meaning you
> > didn't really clear the clog completely.
> >
> > Can you considered a drain blaster or are you afraid that your pipes are too old?
> >
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MzmEy7cOCPg
> >
> > P.S. Overuse of chemical cleaners, especially on older pipes, may be detrimental to
> > the pipe's longevity.
> >
> Thanks, I appreciate the thoughts. It's quite possible that the snake
> didn't go exactly where it needed to. It's hard to do this manually,
> for whatever reason, and I don't like doing it. I can only feed small
> amounts at a time and also retract just tiny amounts while winding. I'm
> sure having the trap in place doesn't help which makes it all that much
> tougher. The snake actually completely exited the winder today and I
> had to find out on Youtube how to rethread it. I've never gone that far
> in the past.
>
> I'll have to look into the drain blaster, thanks. Well, the house is
> about 65 years old with cast iron and terra cotta main lines. The
> drains have always been troublesome because the developers planted trees
> right over the sewer line. Fortunately, I treat the main twice a year
> with copper sulfate and that has kept the roots away for 6 years now.

What other access points are there for this line, like cleanout plugs
in the basement? What other fixtures go to the same path that this
water has to take? If those work, then you know the pipes are OK from
that point on, the problem must be ahead of those. If there is a cleanout
plug you can access in a suspect area, it's going to be a lot better and
easier to work the snake from there. Could also put a 30 gal trash can
under it to see if water then flows freely with a plug out, ruling out the
path from the sink to that point.

On 4/12/2022 11:57 AM, Marilyn Manson wrote:
> On Tuesday, April 12, 2022 at 9:45:57 AM UTC-4, Retirednoguilt wrote:
>> On 4/11/2022 3:03 PM, Bob wrote:
>>> On 4/11/2022 1:52:44 PM, JJ wrote:
>>>> The drains have always been troublesome because the developers planted
>>>> trees right over the sewer line. Fortunately, I treat the main twice
>>>> a year with copper sulfate and that has kept the roots away for 6
>>>> years now.
>>>
>>> Between the headache of leaves in the gutters, raking leaves, picking up
>>> sticks before I could mow,
>>> the threat of a tree falling on the roof, shade causing moss to grow on
>>> the roof, mildew on the siding,
>>> roots buckling the driveway and root damage to sewer line, I had all the
>>> gobdammed trees removed.
>>>
>>> Expensive but problem solved!
>> We solved those same problems by moving to a condo. We added up all the
>> costs of repairing/maintaining the gutters, leaves, roof, driveway, etc.
>> compared to the cost of our condo monthly association fees and given
>> that at our condo we don't pay separately for trash collection, hot and
>> cold water, or for phone/cable tv/ internet, and we have cheaper
>> electrical bills on account of better HVAC and insulation, and cheaper
>> condo owners insurance than homeowners policy, and only gave up about
>> 150 square ft. of living space, we actually are saving more than
>> $200/month and all the hassles of owning a single family detached house.
>> Furthermore, we have the great convenience of excellent public
>> transportation only 1 block from our entryway instead of 1.5 miles away
>> from our old residence. We now spend all our time doing what we like
>> rather than doing what we needed to do to maintain the house.
>
> I don't disagree with anything you've said, but for some us doing the maintenance
> *is* what we like to do. I love puttering around my own house, fixing/changing things
> as I see fit.
>
> SWMBO loves her flower gardens and I like building flower boxes and outdoor stuff
> for her. I guarantee that some of the things we've done to our yard wouldn't be allowed
> if there was an HOA or condo association. Nothing garish...we constantly get compliments
> from our neighbors, but from what I've heard about "associations", I'm sure that we don't
> fit the mold. Having to get everything approved before hand? No thanks.
>
> There were some posts a few weeks ago from a condo-guy that isn't allowed to change a
> plumbing shut-off. He has to call - and pay for - a licensed plumber. No thanks.
>
> I'm pretty sure I'd lose my workshop, eliminating my woodworking hobby. Is that true? Now
> that would really suck.

And I can't disagree with anything you said. You're right about the
existence of condo bylaws, rules, etc., which vary both by legal
jurisdiction and by condo. I didn't mean to imply that any other
housing arrangement is bad or ill considered. I was just describing
what works well for me and my wife. Different strokes for different
folks. Before we bought, we carefully reviewed the bylaws, regulations,
and most importantly, the current financial accounts and financial
history of the condo. All was totally acceptable to us. No one should
buy in a condo without doing those things.

On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 9:51:06 AM UTC-4, Retirednoguilt wrote:
> On 4/12/2022 11:57 AM, Marilyn Manson wrote:
> > On Tuesday, April 12, 2022 at 9:45:57 AM UTC-4, Retirednoguilt wrote:
> >> On 4/11/2022 3:03 PM, Bob wrote:
> >>> On 4/11/2022 1:52:44 PM, JJ wrote:
> >>>> The drains have always been troublesome because the developers planted
> >>>> trees right over the sewer line. Fortunately, I treat the main twice
> >>>> a year with copper sulfate and that has kept the roots away for 6
> >>>> years now.
> >>>
> >>> Between the headache of leaves in the gutters, raking leaves, picking up
> >>> sticks before I could mow,
> >>> the threat of a tree falling on the roof, shade causing moss to grow on
> >>> the roof, mildew on the siding,
> >>> roots buckling the driveway and root damage to sewer line, I had all the
> >>> gobdammed trees removed.
> >>>
> >>> Expensive but problem solved!
> >> We solved those same problems by moving to a condo. We added up all the
> >> costs of repairing/maintaining the gutters, leaves, roof, driveway, etc.
> >> compared to the cost of our condo monthly association fees and given
> >> that at our condo we don't pay separately for trash collection, hot and
> >> cold water, or for phone/cable tv/ internet, and we have cheaper
> >> electrical bills on account of better HVAC and insulation, and cheaper
> >> condo owners insurance than homeowners policy, and only gave up about
> >> 150 square ft. of living space, we actually are saving more than
> >> $200/month and all the hassles of owning a single family detached house.
> >> Furthermore, we have the great convenience of excellent public
> >> transportation only 1 block from our entryway instead of 1.5 miles away
> >> from our old residence. We now spend all our time doing what we like
> >> rather than doing what we needed to do to maintain the house.
> >
> > I don't disagree with anything you've said, but for some us doing the maintenance
> > *is* what we like to do. I love puttering around my own house, fixing/changing things
> > as I see fit.
> >
> > SWMBO loves her flower gardens and I like building flower boxes and outdoor stuff
> > for her. I guarantee that some of the things we've done to our yard wouldn't be allowed
> > if there was an HOA or condo association. Nothing garish...we constantly get compliments
> > from our neighbors, but from what I've heard about "associations", I'm sure that we don't
> > fit the mold. Having to get everything approved before hand? No thanks.
> >
> > There were some posts a few weeks ago from a condo-guy that isn't allowed to change a
> > plumbing shut-off. He has to call - and pay for - a licensed plumber. No thanks.
> >
> > I'm pretty sure I'd lose my workshop, eliminating my woodworking hobby. Is that true? Now
> > that would really suck.
> And I can't disagree with anything you said. You're right about the
> existence of condo bylaws, rules, etc., which vary both by legal
> jurisdiction and by condo. I didn't mean to imply that any other
> housing arrangement is bad or ill considered. I was just describing
> what works well for me and my wife. Different strokes for different
> folks. Before we bought, we carefully reviewed the bylaws, regulations,
> and most importantly, the current financial accounts and financial
> history of the condo. All was totally acceptable to us. No one should
> buy in a condo without doing those things.

I don't disagree with you and you don't disagree with me, yet we have a
difference of opinion about this subject.

According to the unwritten bylaws of a.h.r, we should go back and forth
a couple of times and then start cursing at each other, saying things like
"all you libs/Trumptards/nazis/socialists/rightwing-leftwing wackos are
all the same" and toss around several irrelevant what-aboutisms.

Or... we could just make our point civilly (like we did) and respect each
other's opinion (like we do). Of course, the ole interwebs might come
crashing down if we tried that. What the heck...let's give it a try anyway. ;-)

I'm happy that you are enjoying your new home. May it bring you and your
SO many years of pleasure.