On 6/18/2022 12:47 PM, 25.BX945 wrote:
>
>
>> Back to Trump - there were few surprising moments in his "political career"
>> which are too similar to be a coincidence - 2020 elections where he was
>> practically "erased" versus 2016 Republican's Primary where he "erased" all
>> other candidates.
>
>   He really didn't lose the election by much at all.

He lost a free, fair and clean election by plenty. Republiscums/QAnon still
believe the big lie.

On 18.6.2022. 21:47, 25.BX945 wrote:
>
>
>   I think I'd already mentioned Jaques Ellul's tome from the
>   1950s - he referred to this as "technique" ... the more
>   scientific investigation of "persuasion" that began during
>   WW2 for military reasons but was vastly expanded by private
>   industry thereafter for commercial purposes. Big money was
>   put into finding those "buttons" and and how, and in the
>   best order, to push them. Radio was useful, but TV was
>   the magic machine that let the advertisers (and, trickle-
>   down, the politicians) go hawg wild with what was learned.
>
>   And truth (subjective, not physical) began to evaporate.

The roots of those "techniques" are far older. "Missionaries" sent to
"savages" to "teach them" during middle ages are an example of that.
Long before that Romans used "emissaries" and explorers to plant the
idea of "far advanced" and "just" empire and prepare their targets to
look at surrender as a logical choice.

>
>   Humans, the "species" (also mentioned that there's no
>   "standard human"), really haven't changed in hundreds
>   of thousands of years.

I disagree with that. Few thousand years were enough that there was an
evolutionary response to "brainwashing". It is an inner change by
consciously choosing to be righteous and value the truth above any
loyalty. US was at time the beacon of light shining this to the rest of
mankind. Of course, the darkness is not so easy to beat, so perhaps we
are in "the empire strikes back" times. Mentioned change is certainly
not enough to make us a different species, and the process that this
"choice" settle in might be slow, so many people are in transition. But
the difference is observable.

>   He very effectively sold himself in 2016,

I believe he *was* sold, chosen and supported by someone else. And
discarded when he stopped to be ... manageable.

>   There are COMPETING brainwashers - it's not just ONE dark cabal.

It is like radio - you choose which frequency you would set and listen to.

>
>   Also remember that the true "elites" are rarely the people you
>   see in front of the cameras. This is as Machiavelli noted many
>   centuries ago for his own society and that "rule from the
>   shadows" was common in the Roman empire as well.

Yes. To control something you have to be outside that and not directly
involved, that is old truth. But it also implies that Trump was never in
control of anything, as I mentioned.

>
>   And no, I don't think the Covid vax is a chemical brainwashing
>   brew.

But it could contain also something which would boost people's
self-consciousness and raise their resistance to outside influence.

>
>  I don't see sabotage as being a problem at Yellowstone.
>  Just not practical. You can destroy civilizations much
>  more easily with just a virus or two ...
>
That might be true. So better to not give anyone some new idea.

On 18.6.2022. 21:51, Rudy Canoza wrote:
> On 6/18/2022 12:47 PM, 25.BX945 wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Back to Trump - there were few surprising moments in his "political
>>> career" which are too similar to be a coincidence - 2020 elections
>>> where he was practically "erased" versus 2016 Republican's Primary
>>> where he "erased" all other candidates.
>>
>>    He really didn't lose the election by much at all.
>
> He lost a free, fair and clean election by plenty. Republiscums/QAnon
> still believe the big lie.

From the distance your position and that of your "opponents" do not
look that different. You do not know any significant details about
mentioned election, same as your "opponents" do not. Means in both cases
it is just a "fan" choice and below it are people with more or less same
level of intelligence and education etc. You may think it is worth
something, but IMO it is not. "Foot soldiers" are not in demand any more.

On 6/19/22 3:52 AM, Vortash wrote:
> On 18.6.2022. 21:47, 25.BX945 wrote:
>>
>>
>>   I think I'd already mentioned Jaques Ellul's tome from the
>>   1950s - he referred to this as "technique" ... the more
>>   scientific investigation of "persuasion" that began during
>>   WW2 for military reasons but was vastly expanded by private
>>   industry thereafter for commercial purposes. Big money was
>>   put into finding those "buttons" and and how, and in the
>>   best order, to push them. Radio was useful, but TV was
>>   the magic machine that let the advertisers (and, trickle-
>>   down, the politicians) go hawg wild with what was learned.
>>
>>   And truth (subjective, not physical) began to evaporate.
>
>
> The roots of those "techniques" are far older. "Missionaries" sent to
> "savages" to "teach them" during middle ages are an example of that.
> Long before that Romans used "emissaries" and explorers to plant the
> idea of "far advanced" and "just" empire and prepare their targets to
> look at surrender as a logical choice.

Those "missionaries" went mostly on their instincts, I've
never seen evidence that they had much "how to" training.
Rather a lot of them were killed, perhaps because of that.

The ability to scientifically research persuasion really
did not develop until post WW2.

The missionaries could also only make CLAIMS about their
magical gods. NOW we get MASS bombardment will bogus claims,
tuned by 'technique', from all directions, all technologies.
Persuaders can create an "immersive" environment where the
"facts" you hear are THEIR "facts". How DO we judge reality
when the supposed truths are manufactured ? Plato's "Allegory
Of The Cave" was a thought experiment on this over 2000
years ago. Plato understood the PROBLEM, but the MEANS to
create immersive faux realities did not exist. Now they do.

The recent US elections became fair example of creating
immersive faux reality - with the "MSM" and all it's
means and skills as the instrument. Hide or twist what
does not fit "the narrative", amplify or simply invent
'truths' that do. Make sure that no matter where you
go, what you tune into, what you see on the walls, it's
THEIR "narrative". That Trump and Putin were BFFs and
co-plotters was just assumed by supposedly neutral
commentators, the "everybody knows" as they bantered.

Well-established religions do the same thing. All views
and reasoning and meanings are filtered through their
"everybody knows what <fill-in-favored-diety> wants
this, does that, and we know this because the koran/
bible/torah/sanscrits/whatever TELL US SO". This is
how you get populations into a panic about creeping
'demons' and 'witches' and use them to destroy the
social/political/ideological foes of The Church.

>>   Humans, the "species" (also mentioned that there's no
>>   "standard human"), really haven't changed in hundreds
>>   of thousands of years.
>
> I disagree with that. Few thousand years were enough that there was an
> evolutionary response to "brainwashing". It is an inner change by
> consciously choosing to be righteous and value the truth above any
> loyalty. US was at time the beacon of light shining this to the rest of
> mankind. Of course, the darkness is not so easy to beat, so perhaps we
> are in "the empire strikes back" times. Mentioned change is certainly
> not enough to make us a different species, and the process that this
> "choice" settle in might be slow, so many people are in transition. But
> the difference is observable.

Actually, none of us can be sure what people were thinking
that long ago. Any records are long gone. At best we find
a few trinkets and impose our modern thinking upon
them to GUESS what the ancients were up to and why. Is
the object that looks like a nekked woman a religious
object, or just something a joker carved for kicks ?

Humans are only broadly a "species" - a random mix of random
mixes spread out over time and geography ... and at least one
other sub-sub-species thrown into the cooking pot along the way,
likely two or three. Talking about "How People Think" is a
risky endeavour because of that alone ... not to mention the
social/ideological/sociological twists superimposed on that
biology over hundreds of thousands of years.

It wasn't until maybe 15,000 years ago that various forms
of "writing" - on durable media - appeared. Even then we
do a lot of guessing about the MEANING because the CONTEXT
is often rather vague. Unless someone can invent "Time TV"
this fuzziness will remain. (oh, and the MSM/govt of the
moment will 'spin' and censor what we get from the "Time TV")

What a mess !

>>   He very effectively sold himself in 2016,
>
> I believe he *was* sold, chosen and supported by someone else. And
> discarded when he stopped to be ... manageable.

In THAT case, I'd say he sold HIMSELF. The GOP and
its major candidates didn't like him at all, they
assumed he'd doom them. However his bigger-than-life
personality and quasi-'celebrity' status was a flame
for the moths ... they couldn't HELP but amplify his
presence. He was INTERESTING, he STOOD OUT amongst
the otherwise dead-boring politicians. Trump seems to
have understood this and played it up all the way
to the presidency.

>>   There are COMPETING brainwashers - it's not just ONE dark cabal.
>
>
> It is like radio - you choose which frequency you would set and listen to.

"It's like the country music station. It's out
there, in the air, whether you tune into it or not"
(guess the film)

>>   Also remember that the true "elites" are rarely the people you
>>   see in front of the cameras. This is as Machiavelli noted many
>>   centuries ago for his own society and that "rule from the
>>   shadows" was common in the Roman empire as well.
>
>
> Yes. To control something you have to be outside that and not directly
> involved, that is old truth. But it also implies that Trump was never in
> control of anything, as I mentioned.

"Presidents aren't allowed to have a whole brain"

The up-front "leaders" are rarely the ACTUAL leaders.
Trump came a little closer to it because of his vivid
personality, but even then the invisible string-pullers
were at work. They got him elected, and unelected too,
for their own purposes. About the only puppetmaster we
even occasionally hear about is George Soros, but he's
hardly the only one.

>>   And no, I don't think the Covid vax is a chemical brainwashing
>>   brew.
>
>
> But it could contain also something which would boost people's
> self-consciousness and raise their resistance to outside influence.

"Could" and "does" are different things.

And the puppetmasters COULD add something to a future
vaccine, or even common foods, that would REDUCE people's
understanding/care about manipulation.

Actually, people do all that by themselves - note the
amount of alcohol, and now pot, consumed. Real reality
kinda sucks, so we find ways to mellow out, smooth
it over a bit. Opiate of the masses .....

>>
>>  I don't see sabotage as being a problem at Yellowstone.
>>  Just not practical. You can destroy civilizations much
>>  more easily with just a virus or two ...
>>
> That might be true. So better to not give anyone some new idea.

Too late, "they" got that idea a LONG time ago. It's
just that the technical MEANS is improved today. Call
up the virology lab in Wuhan and place yer custom order.
Something that'd turn people purple with pink polka-dots
would be fun ........ :-)

On 6/19/22 4:04 AM, Vortash wrote:
> On 18.6.2022. 21:51, Rudy Canoza wrote:
>> On 6/18/2022 12:47 PM, 25.BX945 wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> Back to Trump - there were few surprising moments in his "political
>>>> career" which are too similar to be a coincidence - 2020 elections
>>>> where he was practically "erased" versus 2016 Republican's Primary
>>>> where he "erased" all other candidates.
>>>
>>>    He really didn't lose the election by much at all.
>>
>> He lost a free, fair and clean election by plenty. Republiscums/QAnon
>> still believe the big lie.
>
>
> From the distance your position and that of your "opponents" do not
> look that different. You do not know any significant details about
> mentioned election, same as your "opponents" do not. Means in both cases
> it is just a "fan" choice and below it are people with more or less same
> level of intelligence and education etc. You may think it is worth
> something, but IMO it is not. "Foot soldiers" are not in demand any more.
>

Vortash The Martian doesn't really "get" Earth politics.

Trump really REALLY didn't lose by much. It was close enough
that re-counts and reviews really were warranted.

Now Trump himself will always believe "They" cheated him out
of victory. At this point I do not agree. Voter STUPIDITY
combined with TRUMP'S GAWDAWFUL PERSONALITY was the reason.

Oh, and "foot soldiers" remain relevant - the left has
ANTIFA and BLM and "Ruth Sent Us" and a bunch of other
activists/intimidators. They ARE useful.

On 20.6.2022. 5:50, 25.BX945 wrote:
> On 6/19/22 4:04 AM, Vortash wrote:
>> On 18.6.2022. 21:51, Rudy Canoza wrote:
>>> On 6/18/2022 12:47 PM, 25.BX945 wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Back to Trump - there were few surprising moments in his
>>>>> "political career" which are too similar to be a coincidence -
>>>>> 2020 elections where he was practically "erased" versus 2016
>>>>> Republican's Primary where he "erased" all other candidates.
>>>>
>>>>    He really didn't lose the election by much at all.
>>>
>>> He lost a free, fair and clean election by plenty.
>>> Republiscums/QAnon still believe the big lie.
>>
>>
>>  From the distance your position and that of your "opponents" do not
>> look that different. You do not know any significant details about
>> mentioned election, same as your "opponents" do not. Means in both
>> cases it is just a "fan" choice and below it are people with more or
>> less same level of intelligence and education etc. You may think it
>> is worth something, but IMO it is not. "Foot soldiers" are not in
>> demand any more.
>>
>
>   Vortash The Martian doesn't really "get" Earth politics.

Well, this time you missed the point.  My statement was not about Trump
and the election he lost, but about qualification of your ...
"conversation partner" ... to post on politics discussion group
(discussion requires being capable of presenting ideas in a coherent
way, backup them with facts and logic, plus at least minimum respect for
other participants in that discussion).  When someone post a practically
religious statement which he himself does not understand nor obviously
has any real idea how to test validity of election, then this is just a
zealot looking to test "strength of his faith" against strength of
"opposite believers". Not that there are not many similar to him on the
"other side" (cat with brain badly damaged by climate changes comes to
mind), but only result of theirs "conversation" is raised mud and pollution.

>   Oh, and "foot soldiers" remain relevant - the left has
>   ANTIFA and BLM and "Ruth Sent Us" and a bunch of other
>   activists/intimidators. They ARE useful.

Until someone draw the line and they are not needed anymore.

On 19.6.2022. 17:42, 25.BX945 wrote:
> On 6/19/22 3:52 AM, Vortash wrote:
>
>    Those "missionaries" went mostly on their instincts, I've
>    never seen evidence that they had much "how to" training.
>    Rather a lot of them were killed, perhaps because of that.

It is difficult to notice something far outside your experience. Our
eyes and brain when processing "input" usually ignore that what brain
cannot interpret. F.e. some of them were not just killed, they were
eaten by cannibals. But who can say that this kind of DNA
infusion/exposure did not influence and change savages.

>
>    The ability to scientifically research persuasion really
>    did not develop until post WW2.

Also because science itself did not exist much earlier. The attitude to
this is the same as for oxygen - people did breath it long before
someone identified and named it.

> Plato's "Allegory
>    Of The Cave" was a thought experiment on this over 2000
>    years ago. Plato understood the PROBLEM, but the MEANS to
>    create immersive faux realities did not exist.

Did not exist for mass level influence. But for the individuals did - a
combination of relaxing drugs and a whisperer using suggestive
repetitive chants was in use very long time ago. Plato is by himself an
evidence then smart and educated people existed before and what they can
achieve.

> Well-established religions do the same thing. All views
>    and reasoning and meanings are filtered through their
>    "everybody knows what <fill-in-favored-diety> wants
>    this, does that, and we know this because the koran/
>    bible/torah/sanscrits/whatever TELL US SO". This is
>    how you get populations into a panic about creeping
>    'demons' and 'witches' and use them to destroy the
>    social/political/ideological foes of The Church.

Yes, it is always good to remind people that if they want to stay in the
"warmth of herd" they have to "go along". Almost always works.

>
>   Actually, none of us can be sure what people were thinking
>   that long ago. Any records are long gone.

I disagree with that. What you are used to expect as "records" (as in
use in our civilization - books or manuscripts on paper or stone)
requires "background" of related civilization. F.e. even DVD's or memory
sticks would be unrecognizable and unusable to our own ancestor from few
decades ago. The quipu recordings (colored strings and nodes) are not
recognizable for most people and would usually be dismissed as a
"children toys" or some other nonsense. And the stuff which do not fit
our technical civilization (like "akasha records") would be ridiculed
and dismissed as "religious mambo-jumbo".

>   It wasn't until maybe 15,000 years ago that various forms
>   of "writing" - on durable media - appeared. Even then we
>   do a lot of guessing about the MEANING because the CONTEXT
>   is often rather vague.

There always could be said something and those with open eyes could find
enough evidence. F.e. "written languages" are expected to develop from
simple ones to more complicated forms and findings should support that
theory. But in case of Egyptian hieroglyphs is different. The most
complex are those from first recorded dynasties, and later "records"
show degradation. Which leads to conclusion that ancient Egypt was
actually just a colony of some greater civilization which was somehow
destroyed (supposedly Atlantis). Same is for supposed findings on Mars
and Moon. Statues oh humans there could indicate that human past is far
older then this 15.000 years you mentioned, and origins are not on
Earth. Of course as long as this is not upgraded to the "public truth"
the idea of our past will be blurred.

>   The up-front "leaders" are rarely the ACTUAL leaders.
>   Trump came a little closer to it because of his vivid
>   personality, but even then the invisible string-pullers
>   were at work. They got him elected, and unelected too,
>   for their own purposes. About the only puppetmaster we
>   even occasionally hear about is George Soros, but he's
>   hardly the only one.

Not sure about Soros. I doubt also that those "invisible string-pullers"
would expose themselves by living in general population. However, it is
better to have someone guide the evolution of mankind then not. Chaos is
not a logical choice. Plus, I suppose that if they really exist their
main task would to preserve our biosphere. Most people do not concern
themselves with things like how to preserve Oxygen level necessary for
life etc., nor would  know what to do if that becomes a problem. As
cattle does not think about green grass and water, but would die out if
not available.

On 6/20/22 3:31 AM, Vortash wrote:
> On 20.6.2022. 5:50, 25.BX945 wrote:
>> On 6/19/22 4:04 AM, Vortash wrote:
>>> On 18.6.2022. 21:51, Rudy Canoza wrote:
>>>> On 6/18/2022 12:47 PM, 25.BX945 wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Back to Trump - there were few surprising moments in his
>>>>>> "political career" which are too similar to be a coincidence -
>>>>>> 2020 elections where he was practically "erased" versus 2016
>>>>>> Republican's Primary where he "erased" all other candidates.
>>>>>
>>>>>    He really didn't lose the election by much at all.
>>>>
>>>> He lost a free, fair and clean election by plenty.
>>>> Republiscums/QAnon still believe the big lie.
>>>
>>>
>>>  From the distance your position and that of your "opponents" do not
>>> look that different. You do not know any significant details about
>>> mentioned election, same as your "opponents" do not. Means in both
>>> cases it is just a "fan" choice and below it are people with more or
>>> less same level of intelligence and education etc. You may think it
>>> is worth something, but IMO it is not. "Foot soldiers" are not in
>>> demand any more.
>>>
>>
>>   Vortash The Martian doesn't really "get" Earth politics.
>
>
> Well, this time you missed the point.  My statement was not about Trump
> and the election he lost, but about qualification of your ...
> "conversation partner" ... to post on politics discussion group
> (discussion requires being capable of presenting ideas in a coherent
> way, backup them with facts and logic, plus at least minimum respect for
> other participants in that discussion).  When someone post a practically
> religious statement which he himself does not understand nor obviously
> has any real idea how to test validity of election, then this is just a
> zealot looking to test "strength of his faith" against strength of
> "opposite believers". Not that there are not many similar to him on the
> "other side" (cat with brain badly damaged by climate changes comes to
> mind), but only result of theirs "conversation" is raised mud and
> pollution.

Speaking of "mud" ... the above paragraph ... as in
"opaque".

Testing the validity of an election is NOT easy in the
USA. The secret ballot, and now the various odd tech
methods, make it extremely difficult to prove, or to
disprove, fraud and/or simple incompetence. US elections
are very often won by a mere percentage or two - indeed
lately we've seen long-delayed decisions because the
votes were within fractions of a percent. That is,
strictly speaking, beyond the inherent accuracy of the
system - like trying to weigh a goldfish with a truck
scale. Every method of recount yields different results
even if NO fraud is involved.

And then you get a Pregnant Chads debacle.

It does not take much fraud, or error, or conspiracy,
to swing an election when things are that close.

MAYbe the USA needs to start requiring more than 50.0001
percent ? 60% or nobody wins and you have to do it all
over ? A bit expensive at times, more trouble - but it
would save different kinds of expenses and trouble. When
large fractions have no faith in the electoral system
soon there is SERIOUS trouble.

>>   Oh, and "foot soldiers" remain relevant - the left has
>>   ANTIFA and BLM and "Ruth Sent Us" and a bunch of other
>>   activists/intimidators. They ARE useful.
>
>
> Until someone draw the line and they are not needed anymore.

The rabid rads always get the chop - but only after "their side"
wins. After that they're more than redundant - dangerous, "too
pure". No real-world politician would be good enough for them.