ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) wrote or quoted:
>But it still might be true, that translations from English
>increase the size when measured in words, because English
>indeed has a rich vocabulary!

In 2005, Gutsch observed that Biermann thought English had
more content per syllable, so Biermann decided to translate
Shakespeare's sonnets with hexameters instead of pentameters.

Gutsch then observed IIRC that Biermann then has to start
filling up his hexameters with filler words!

Let me take one example:

|Tired with all these, for restful death I cry:
|As to behold desert a beggar born

is translated by Biermann as

|Müd müd von all dem schrei ich nach dem Schlaf im Tod
|Weil ich ja seh: Verdienst geht betteln hier im Staat

. I see here a repetition of "müd" (tired), an unnecessary "dem",
and an unnecessarily long and in the source not existing "Weil
ich ja seh". (Gutsch deals with all this in more detail and writes
that "as to behold" could be translated with "Da sieh!")

In article <urn8dj$3shn8$1@dont-email.me>,
gadekryds@lundhansen.dk says...
>
> Hibou wrote:
>
> > I think it's true that English has an exceptionally rich vocabulary, but
> > that doesn't mean it's a superset of all the world's vocabularies. There
> > will always be examples both ways. 'To know' translates into either
> > 'connaître' or 'savoir', 'faire' into 'to do' and 'to make' (this often
> > trips up French people learning English, it seems).
> >
> > English is the world's most widely spoken language. It is used for just
> > about everything that Man does, and it has acquired a correspondingly
> > large vocabulary. In particular, it is the language of the science and
> > technology on which our lives depend, the language of every new
> > development in a rapidly evolving world. Other languages scramble to
> > keep up. Unless they take over as world language, they will never match
> > us for breadth of vocabulary.
>
> English language gained a lot because so many countries/regions were
> incorporated in the empire, but it also accepts e.g. latin words where
> Danish doesn't. An ordinary Dane wouldn't know what "umbilikal" means
> unless they are involved in medicine or diving. We only use "navle".

So what do you call the umbilical cord that's cut after
a baby is born?

Janet
>
> Another thing that surprised me, was learning that snails and slugs are
> two groups of animals. We say "snegl" about them both.

Den 28-02-2024 kl. 22:33 skrev Janet:
> In article <urn8dj$3shn8$1@dont-email.me>,
> gadekryds@lundhansen.dk says...
>> [...]
>> English language gained a lot because so many countries/regions were
>> incorporated in the empire, but it also accepts e.g. latin words where
>> Danish doesn't. An ordinary Dane wouldn't know what "umbilikal" means
>> unless they are involved in medicine or diving. We only use "navle".
>
> So what do you call the umbilical cord that's cut after
> a baby is born?

"Navlestreng".

> Janet
>>
>> Another thing that surprised me, was learning that snails and slugs are
>> two groups of animals. We say "snegl" about them both.

Similarly "Skildpadde" covers both turtle and tortoise.
And conversely: "Camel" can be either "kamel" or "dromedar".

/Anders, Denmark

On 28/02/24 23:20, Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:

> Another thing that surprised me, was learning that snails and slugs are
> two groups of animals. We say "snegl" about them both.

I suppose that a slug can be thought of as a homeless snail.

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW

Janet wrote:

> So what do you call the umbilical cord that's cut after
> a baby is born?

navlestreng - which you probably understand without explanation.

--
Bertel, Denmark

Stefan Ram wrote:

> ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) wrote or quoted:
>>But it still might be true, that translations from English
>>increase the size when measured in words, because English
>>indeed has a rich vocabulary!

> In 2005, Gutsch observed that Biermann thought English had
> more content per syllable, so Biermann decided to translate
> Shakespeare's sonnets with hexameters instead of pentameters.

> Gutsch then observed IIRC that Biermann then has to start
> filling up his hexameters with filler words!

> Let me take one example:

> |Tired with all these, for restful death I cry:
> |As to behold desert a beggar born

> is translated by Biermann as

> |Müd müd von all dem schrei ich nach dem Schlaf im Tod
> |Weil ich ja seh: Verdienst geht betteln hier im Staat

> . I see here a repetition of "müd" (tired), an unnecessary "dem",
> and an unnecessarily long and in the source not existing "Weil
> ich ja seh". (Gutsch deals with all this in more detail and writes
> that "as to behold" could be translated with "Da sieh!")

One example doesn't prove anything. If you translate verse in
equal-length linesin one language to equal-length lines in
another, the best length you can choose will give you some lines
that are too short and others that are too long. Then you have to
deal with that. But I can believe that on the whole, German
hexameters are too long for English pentameters.

Is "Da sieh!" an imperative? There's no imperative or suggestion
of anything like it in the original.

--
Jerry Friedman

On 2024-02-28 23:36, Peter Moylan wrote:
> On 28/02/24 23:20, Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:
>
>> Another thing that surprised me, was learning that snails and slugs are
>> two groups of animals. We say "snegl" about them both.
>
> I suppose that a slug can be thought of as a homeless snail.

Indeed, but...

I took the shell off my racing snail to speed him up,
But it only made him more sluggish.

--
veni, vidi, velcro.

In article <urofud$4mhm$1@dont-email.me>,
news2012adn@gmail.com says...
>
> Den 28-02-2024 kl. 22:33 skrev Janet:
> > In article <urn8dj$3shn8$1@dont-email.me>,
> > gadekryds@lundhansen.dk says...
> >> [...]
> >> English language gained a lot because so many countries/regions were
> >> incorporated in the empire, but it also accepts e.g. latin words where
> >> Danish doesn't. An ordinary Dane wouldn't know what "umbilikal" means
> >> unless they are involved in medicine or diving. We only use "navle".
> >
> > So what do you call the umbilical cord that's cut after
> > a baby is born?
>
> "Navlestreng".

<like>

Janet

In article <urp54h$c4mg$2@dont-email.me>,
peter@pmoylan.org.invalid says...
>
> On 28/02/24 23:20, Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:
>
> > Another thing that surprised me, was learning that snails and slugs are
> > two groups of animals. We say "snegl" about them both.
>
> I suppose that a slug can be thought of as a homeless snail.

I suppose that snails are greedy boomers who got huge
mortgages, bought up all the shells, leading to a shortage
of affordable homes for slugs. Some of those wealthy
snails even own several shells, including holiday shells
abroad. Now slugs will never be able to afford a shell of
their own, or leave the stone they live under with their
parents.

Janet

Remember Thursday, when Janet asked plaintively:
> In article <urp54h$c4mg$2@dont-email.me>,
> peter@pmoylan.org.invalid says...
>>
>> On 28/02/24 23:20, Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:
>>
>>> Another thing that surprised me, was learning that snails and slugs are
>>> two groups of animals. We say "snegl" about them both.
>>
>> I suppose that a slug can be thought of as a homeless snail.
>
> I suppose that snails are greedy boomers who got huge
> mortgages, bought up all the shells, leading to a shortage
> of affordable homes for slugs. Some of those wealthy
> snails even own several shells, including holiday shells
> abroad. Now slugs will never be able to afford a shell of
> their own, or leave the stone they live under with their
> parents.
>
> Janet

hoo-boy!

/dps

--
"First thing in the morning, before I have coffee, I read the obits, If
I'm not in it, I'll have breakfast." -- Carl Reiner, to CBS News in
2015.

Watch this space, where Peter Moylan advised that...
> On 28/02/24 23:20, Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:
>
>> Another thing that surprised me, was learning that snails and slugs are
>> two groups of animals. We say "snegl" about them both.
>
> I suppose that a slug can be thought of as a homeless snail.

As a amtter of trivia, in western Oregon we had mostly slugs. In
coastal SoCal, we have mostly snails.

/dps "his car go"

--
Why would I want to be alone with my thoughts?
Have you heard some of the shit that comes out of my mouth?
-- the World Wide Web

Snidely wrote:

> As a amtter of trivia, in western Oregon we had mostly slugs. In
> coastal SoCal, we have mostly snails.

When I moved into this house (9 years ago), there was an enormous amount
of what we call killer-snails (dræbersnegle) - light-brown Iberian
slugs. In a nearby football field they would cover the area with no more
than 10 cms from slug to slug. Besides that I had ordinary snails in my
lawn and apple trres.

Today there are quite few Iberian slugs. I don't know why. There is no
change in the amount off snails.

--
Bertel, Denmark

On 29-Feb-24 17:43, Snidely wrote:
> Watch this space, where Peter Moylan advised that...
>> On 28/02/24 23:20, Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:
>>
>>> Another thing that surprised me, was learning that snails and slugs are
>>> two groups of animals. We say "snegl" about them both.
>>
>> I suppose that a slug can be thought of as a homeless snail.
>
> As a amtter of trivia, in western Oregon we had mostly slugs.  In
> coastal SoCal, we have mostly snails.

Geology or rainfall?
I imagine those shells need limestone.

--
Sam Plusnet

On 2024-02-29 11:43, Snidely wrote:
> Watch this space, where Peter Moylan advised that...
>> On 28/02/24 23:20, Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:
>>
>>> Another thing that surprised me, was learning that snails and slugs are
>>> two groups of animals. We say "snegl" about them both.
>>
>> I suppose that a slug can be thought of as a homeless snail.
>
> As a amtter of trivia, in western Oregon we had mostly slugs.  In
> coastal SoCal, we have mostly snails.
>
> /dps "his car go"

Was that an attempt at a half-remembered punchline?
If so, it was probably:

"Look at that S-car go!"

--
The saddest aspect of life right now is that science gathers knowledge
faster than society gathers wisdom.
—Isaac Asimov

On 2024-02-27 14:56:04 +0000, occam said:

> On 27/02/2024 14:16, Hibou wrote:
>> "With English having one of the richest vocabularies, some words don’t
>> always find a correspondent in other languages. That’s why, sometimes,
>> translators need as many as five or six words to translate a single
>> English word!" -
>> <https://clearwordstranslations.com/language/pt/difficult-words-to-translate/>
>
> Interesting but not very convincing. I googled 'difficult words in
> English to translate', and I got several listings. They were all
> different, but none were very convincing.
>
> E.g.
>
> ‘Procrastinate’ – it has no equivalent in Spanish. (Really? How about
> mañana, said in a bored, dismissive way?)

I read once that to understand Inshallah in an Arabic-speaking country
you need to think of it as mañana, but without the sense of urgency.
>
> Another list said:
>
> 'Kitsch' - Only English speakers and Germans, from whom the word
> originated, can so concisely describe pretentious, outdated, tacky, or
> inferior art. (Yes, the German word is very concise. That's why English
> appropriated it, like schadenfreude.)
>
> One or two got close.
>
> My favourite is 'ish'. BrE speakers people have a way of adding 'ish'
> to a word to denote doubt, almost as if to say "almost right, but no
> coconut". Example: "She's young." "Well, young-ish."
>
> Untranslatable, yes. But is it a word?

--
Athel -- French and British, living in Marseilles for 36 years; mainly
in England until 1987.

On 2024-02-28 23:34:36 +0000, Anders D. Nygaard said:

> Den 28-02-2024 kl. 22:33 skrev Janet:
>> In article <urn8dj$3shn8$1@dont-email.me>,
>> gadekryds@lundhansen.dk says...
>>> [...]
>>> English language gained a lot because so many countries/regions were
>>> incorporated in the empire, but it also accepts e.g. latin words where
>>> Danish doesn't. An ordinary Dane wouldn't know what "umbilikal" means
>>> unless they are involved in medicine or diving. We only use "navle".
>>
>> So what do you call the umbilical cord that's cut after
>> a baby is born?
>
> "Navlestreng".
>
>> Janet
>>>
>>> Another thing that surprised me, was learning that snails and slugs are
>>> two groups of animals. We say "snegl" about them both.
>
> Similarly "Skildpadde" covers both turtle and tortoise.
> And conversely: "Camel" can be either "kamel" or "dromedar".

Unless they're being pedantic no one in English calls camels
dromedaries. French and Spanish are different, and if you call un
dromédaire un chameau you may not be understood.

--
Athel -- French and British, living in Marseilles for 36 years; mainly
in England until 1987.

Athel Cornish-Bowden:
> Unless they're being pedantic no one in English calls camels
> dromedaries.

It's pedantic to answer the question "What kind of camels were they?"?
--
Mark Brader "It's okay for us to love our country,
Toronto but we ought to spend most of our time
msb@vex.net making our country lovable." -- Andy Rooney

Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:

> I read once that to understand Inshallah in an Arabic-speaking country
> you need to think of it as mañana, but without the sense of urgency.

I didn't know that "mañana" had urgency in it.

"Inshallah" is found in Spanish as "ojalá" which according to my nephew
who lived in the country for five years is quite common.

--
Bertel, Denmark

In article <l4drd2FmrqnU1@mid.individual.net>,
Athel Cornish-Bowden <me@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On 2024-02-27 14:56:04 +0000, occam said:

> > On 27/02/2024 14:16, Hibou wrote:
> >> "With English having one of the richest vocabularies, some words don‘t
> >> always find a correspondent in other languages. That‘s why, sometimes,
> >> translators need as many as five or six words to translate a single
> >> English word!" -
> >> <https://clearwordstranslations.com/language/pt/difficult-words-to-translate/>
> >
> > Interesting but not very convincing. I googled 'difficult words in
> > English to translate', and I got several listings. They were all
> > different, but none were very convincing.
> >
> > E.g.
> >
> > Procrastinate‘ — it has no equivalent in Spanish. (Really? How about
> > mañana, said in a bored, dismissive way?)

> I read once that to understand Inshallah in an Arabic-speaking country

It was once remarked by someone from the mainland, that life in the Western
Isles (of Scotland) was conducted at a slow pace. He asked a local if there
was a similar word to "mañana" in their vocabulary. After a lot of though,
the local replied that there wasn't a word to convey that urgency.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England - sent from my RISC OS 4té²
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

El Fri, 01 Mar 2024 13:04:50 +0100, Bertel Lund Hansen escribió:

> Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>
>> I read once that to understand Inshallah in an Arabic-speaking country
>> you need to think of it as mañana, but without the sense of urgency.
>
> I didn't know that "mañana" had urgency in it.

It was wit. The whole idea is that "mañana" means maybe next week. Maybe
not.
> "Inshallah" is found in Spanish as "ojalá" which according to my nephew
> who lived in the country for five years is quite common.

Very common. With subjunctive. Meaning "If only".

******************************************
ojalá
Del ár. hisp. law šá lláh 'si Dios quiere'.

1. interj. Denota vivo deseo de que suceda algo
********************************************

From hispanic arabic. Whatever thaat is.

--
Paul.

https://paulc.es

ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) wrote or quoted:
>But it still might be true, that translations from English
>increase the size when measured in words, because English
>indeed has a rich vocabulary!

|He hocked up a rock and it totaled my car!

-->

|Er zertrümmerte einen Felsbrocken und verursachte einen
|Totalschaden an meinem Auto!

(backtranslated: "He smashed a boulder and totaled my car!")

(The above translation was the first suggestion of
a translation service. Under certain circumstances,
shorter translations might be possible.)

The translation is not totally correct, as to "hock" above probably
has the sense "To cough while the vomit reflex is triggered; to gag."
(it's about a mountain with a huge mouth), so I'd translate:

|Er hustete einen Felsen aus, und mein Auto wurde zum Totalschaden.

(backtranslated: "He coughed up a rock, and my car was totaled.")

The chatbot immediately got this sense (of "to cough"):

|Dear Chatbot, could you please translate "He hocked up a rock
|and it totaled my car!" into German?
| |"He hocked up a rock and it totaled my car!" translates to
|"Er spuckte einen Stein aus und mein Auto wurde total
|beschädigt!" in German.

(backtranslated: He spat out a stone and my car was totally damaged!)

One might translate "totaled" to "zerstört" ("destroyed"). This is
not exactly the same, but might be possible in the context of the
story. A human translator knows where he can take some liberties to
make a translation a bit shorter, but a translation service may not
know this and, therefore, will stay more on the side of precision,
even if it means that the translation gets longer.

On 2024-03-01 12:04:50 +0000, Bertel Lund Hansen said:

> Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>
>> I read once that to understand Inshallah in an Arabic-speaking country
>> you need to think of it as mañana, but without the sense of urgency.
>
> I didn't know that "mañana" had urgency in it.

It doesn't. It's a joke.
>
> "Inshallah" is found in Spanish as "ojalá" which according to my nephew
> who lived in the country for five years is quite common.

--
Athel -- French and British, living in Marseilles for 36 years; mainly
in England until 1987.