On Mon, 19 Feb 2024 22:36:58 -0600, lar3ryca <larry@invalid.ca> wrote:

>On 2024-02-19 19:42, Tony Cooper wrote:
>> On Mon, 19 Feb 2024 22:39:25 -0000 (UTC), wollman@bimajority.org
>> (Garrett Wollman) wrote:
>>
>>> In article <uqvkh9$1sps1$1@dont-email.me>,
>>> Bertel Lund Hansen <gadekryds@lundhansen.dk> wrote:
>>>> Hibou wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> It's usual if one doesn't want to be photographed to look daggers at the
>>>>> camera. Looking lances would count as escalation.
>>>>>
>>>>> Whatever, do you mean a still photographer or a TV camera operator?
>>>>
>>>> A camera operator. For a Dane they are all photographers (fotografer).
>>>
>>> In the US, there is a distinction. We used to use the word
>>> "videographer" but nowadays for location reporting it's not uncommon
>>> to call them all "photogs". A "camera operator" would be someone who
>>> operates a camera in a studio (or remotely, in a control room).
>>> "Cameraman" is a relic of history.
>>
>> Really? On any given (American) football game day, you are quite
>> likely to hear one of the booth people comment on how a player ran
>> into and over a "cameraman". That would be one of the men (I've never
>> seen a woman in that job) roaming the sidelines with a huge video
>> camera hung on his shoulder.
>>
>> One of my daughter's classmates worked for a network doing just that.
>> He's no longer on the job, but we used to watch for George on the
>> sidelines when the Tampa Bay Bucs were playing. George, as far as I
>> know, is still a network cameraman, but he no longer works football
>> games. Last I heard, he does remotes for a news team.
>>
>> There are fewer of them now at football games because of the advent of
>> overhead cameras that are remotely operated and skitter across wires
>> above the playing field, but I would hardly say "relic" describes the
>> function. Today's camera operator at a football game is closer to
>> being a drone controller than a cameraman.
>
>They aren't exactly 'skittering across wires'. They are actually
>suspended by three cables which can be reeled in or let out to position
>the camera in three dimensions.
>
>See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skycam

Semantics. Skitter: to move lightly and quickly. I think that
describes the movement of a suspended camera moving at up to 29 mph at
the direction of someone trying to follow the movement of one ball and
22 men clashing together.

>> https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/65198de0e10adba9275576c774a026ee93561eac/0_306_4593_2756/master/4593.jpg?width=1200&height=1200&quality=85&auto=format&fit=crop&s=69a98dc11a00dba8d887f1355837a242
>>
>> There might be some movement to discontinue the term "cameraman" and
>> replace it with "camera operator" by HR because of the gender-naming,
>> but I don't think that extends to the actual usage by those describing
>> the person.
>>
>> Even though the cameraman captures images on video, I would not use
>> "videographer" to describe the function. A videographer generally
>> produces an entire package...a wedding and reception from start to
>> finish that includes only the subjects. A cameraman produces bits and
>> pieces fed into a larger production or images for a production like a
>> remote where another person provides narration.
>>

Le 19/02/2024 à 22:39, Garrett Wollman a écrit :
> In article <uqvkh9$1sps1$1@dont-email.me>,
> Bertel Lund Hansen <gadekryds@lundhansen.dk> wrote:
>> Hibou wrote:
>>>
>>> Whatever, do you mean a still photographer or a TV camera operator?
>>
>> A camera operator. For a Dane they are all photographers (fotografer).
>
> In the US, there is a distinction. We used to use the word
> "videographer" but nowadays for location reporting it's not uncommon
> to call them all "photogs". A "camera operator" would be someone who
> operates a camera in a studio (or remotely, in a control room).
> "Cameraman" is a relic of history.

<https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=cameraman%2Ccamerawoman%2Ccameraperson%2Ccamera+operator%2Cvideographer&year_start=1800&year_end=2019&corpus=en-US-2019&smoothing=3>

'Camera operator' seems to be the current PC term.

Le 20/02/2024 à 06:40, Hibou a écrit :
> Le 19/02/2024 à 22:39, Garrett Wollman a écrit :
>> In article <uqvkh9$1sps1$1@dont-email.me>,
>> Bertel Lund Hansen  <gadekryds@lundhansen.dk> wrote:
>>> Hibou wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Whatever, do you mean a still photographer or a TV camera operator?
>>>
>>> A camera operator. For a Dane they are all photographers (fotografer).
>>
>> In the US, there is a distinction.  We used to use the word
>> "videographer" but nowadays for location reporting it's not uncommon
>> to call them all "photogs".  A "camera operator" would be someone who
>> operates a camera in a studio (or remotely, in a control room).
>> "Cameraman" is a relic of history.
>
> <https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=cameraman%2Ccamerawoman%2Ccameraperson%2Ccamera+operator%2Cvideographer&year_start=1800&year_end=2019&corpus=en-US-2019&smoothing=3>
>
> 'Camera operator' seems to be the current PC term.

.... This last from scanning job ads and sites listing careers in television.

On 19/02/2024 19:36, Sam Plusnet wrote:
> Might a freebooter go ashore and become a freelance?
> (Or indeed, vice versa)

In fact historically some mercenaries ('free lancers') were rewarded
with the spoils of war in lieu of pay.

The main difference between freebooters and freelancers is that the
former are self-employed while the latter hire themselves out for pay. A
bit like whores - not so free.

lar3ryca wrote:

>> There are fewer of them now at football games because of the advent of
>> overhead cameras that are remotely operated and skitter across wires
>> above the playing field, but I would hardly say "relic" describes the
>> function. Today's camera operator at a football game is closer to
>> being a drone controller than a cameraman.
>
> They aren't exactly 'skittering across wires'. They are actually
> suspended by three cables which can be reeled in or let out to position
> the camera in three dimensions.

Why don't they use 'free' drones? Is it too dangerous for the players if
they should drop out of the sky (the drones - not the players)?

--
Bertel, Denmark

bil...@shaw.ca <billvan@shaw.ca> wrote:

> On Monday, February 19, 2024 at 5:19:40?AM UTC-8, Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:
> > Hibou wrote:
> >
> > > It's usual if one doesn't want to be photographed to look daggers at the
> > > camera. Looking lances would count as escalation.
> > >
> > > Whatever, do you mean a still photographer or a TV camera operator?
> > A camera operator. For a Dane they are all photographers (fotografer).
> >
> When I worked in newspapers, a photographer took photographs for newspapers
> or magazines, but a cameraman operated a video camera for television.
>
> To my mind, someone who operates a video camera can't be described as a
> photographer, because he doesn't take photographs. It is possible to
> extract a single "still" frame from video, but it lacks the sharpness of a
> quality photo.

Data point: The recently awarded with something Hoye van Hoytema,
(Oppenheimer)
for being 'director of photography', not 'director of cinematography'
nor 'director of videography' or anything like that.

It seems fairly obvious that he didn't get that award for taking stills,

Jan

Le 20/02/2024 à 08:33, J. J. Lodder a écrit :
> bil...@shaw.ca <billvan@shaw.ca> wrote:
>> On Monday, February 19, 2024 at 5:19:40?AM UTC-8, Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:
>>
>> When I worked in newspapers, a photographer took photographs for newspapers
>> or magazines, but a cameraman operated a video camera for television.
>>
>> To my mind, someone who operates a video camera can't be described as a
>> photographer, because he doesn't take photographs. It is possible to
>> extract a single "still" frame from video, but it lacks the sharpness of a
>> quality photo.
>
> Data point: The recently awarded with something Hoye van Hoytema,
> (Oppenheimer)
> for being 'director of photography', not 'director of cinematography'
> nor 'director of videography' or anything like that.
>
> It seems fairly obvious that he didn't get that award for taking stills,

A director of photography is a step up from a cameraman...

<https://www.screenskills.com/job-profiles/browse/film-and-tv-drama/technical/director-of-photography-dop/>
:

"Film and TV drama / Director of photography (DoP) / Also known as:
Cinematographer (especially when the DoP operates the camera), DoP, DP /
Directors of photography are responsible for the photographic heart of a
production. / They read the screenplay and work closely with the
director to discuss the look and feel of a film. They then research how
to create the look through lighting, framing and camera movement and
what they will need in terms of kit and crew to achieve this."

Videoing is 'photography', it is 'painting with light'. Nonetheless, the
chap or chapess behind the camera is a 'cameraman' or 'camera operator',
not a 'photographer'.

Most stills photographers work alone. They are in effect their own
artistic directors. A film or television cameraman would hardly ever
work alone.

On Mon, 19 Feb 2024 21:43:55 +0100, Bertel Lund Hansen
<gadekryds@lundhansen.dk> wrote:

>Sam Plusnet wrote:
>
>> Might a freebooter go ashore and become a freelance?
>> (Or indeed, vice versa)
>>
>> I don't know what the relative rates of pay and levels of risk would be.
>>
>> I have no idea why either the boot or the lance should be picked out in
>> this way.
>
>I don't think that it's a boot. Think "booty". In Danish it's a
>"fribytter", where "bytte" has the same meaning as "booty" - probably
>the same word.

I still remember. It was close to 30 years ago that I was on a cruise
ship on Halloween. In the auditorium the MC was interviewing several
people in costumes. One was a boy around 5 or 6 years old, dressed as
a pirate.

The MC asked, "are you a pirate?"

The boy replied "yes," and the MC then asked, "if you're a pirate,
where's your booty?"

The boy looked down at his feet and said, "pirates sometimes wear
sandals."

On 2024-02-19 23:24, Tony Cooper wrote:
> On Mon, 19 Feb 2024 22:36:58 -0600, lar3ryca <larry@invalid.ca> wrote:
>
>> On 2024-02-19 19:42, Tony Cooper wrote:
>>> On Mon, 19 Feb 2024 22:39:25 -0000 (UTC), wollman@bimajority.org
>>> (Garrett Wollman) wrote:
>>>
>>>> In article <uqvkh9$1sps1$1@dont-email.me>,
>>>> Bertel Lund Hansen <gadekryds@lundhansen.dk> wrote:
>>>>> Hibou wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> It's usual if one doesn't want to be photographed to look daggers at the
>>>>>> camera. Looking lances would count as escalation.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Whatever, do you mean a still photographer or a TV camera operator?
>>>>>
>>>>> A camera operator. For a Dane they are all photographers (fotografer).
>>>>
>>>> In the US, there is a distinction. We used to use the word
>>>> "videographer" but nowadays for location reporting it's not uncommon
>>>> to call them all "photogs". A "camera operator" would be someone who
>>>> operates a camera in a studio (or remotely, in a control room).
>>>> "Cameraman" is a relic of history.
>>>
>>> Really? On any given (American) football game day, you are quite
>>> likely to hear one of the booth people comment on how a player ran
>>> into and over a "cameraman". That would be one of the men (I've never
>>> seen a woman in that job) roaming the sidelines with a huge video
>>> camera hung on his shoulder.
>>>
>>> One of my daughter's classmates worked for a network doing just that.
>>> He's no longer on the job, but we used to watch for George on the
>>> sidelines when the Tampa Bay Bucs were playing. George, as far as I
>>> know, is still a network cameraman, but he no longer works football
>>> games. Last I heard, he does remotes for a news team.
>>>
>>> There are fewer of them now at football games because of the advent of
>>> overhead cameras that are remotely operated and skitter across wires
>>> above the playing field, but I would hardly say "relic" describes the
>>> function. Today's camera operator at a football game is closer to
>>> being a drone controller than a cameraman.
>>
>> They aren't exactly 'skittering across wires'. They are actually
>> suspended by three cables which can be reeled in or let out to position
>> the camera in three dimensions.
>>
>> See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skycam
>
> Semantics. Skitter: to move lightly and quickly. I think that
> describes the movement of a suspended camera moving at up to 29 mph at
> the direction of someone trying to follow the movement of one ball and
> 22 men clashing together.
It was not 'skittering' I was commenting on. It was 'across the wires',
which skycams definitely do not do.

--
When I was a child, my dad used to hit me with a camera.
I still have flashbacks.

On 2024-02-20 02:21, Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:
> lar3ryca wrote:
>
>>> There are fewer of them now at football games because of the advent of
>>> overhead cameras that are remotely operated and skitter across wires
>>> above the playing field, but I would hardly say "relic" describes the
>>> function. Today's camera operator at a football game is closer to
>>> being a drone controller than a cameraman.
>>
>> They aren't exactly 'skittering across wires'. They are actually
>> suspended by three cables which can be reeled in or let out to position
>> the camera in three dimensions.
>
> Why don't they use 'free' drones? Is it too dangerous for the players if
> they should drop out of the sky (the drones - not the players)?

In our stadium, they do use drones, but they are hovering well above
ground, but not within the boundaries of the stadium itself, and are
used more for 'filler' on the Maxtron (scoreboard/replay screen) than
for following plays.

If they used them within the stadium for following plays, they would be
low enough to be at risk of being hit by the ball, especially ones that
have been kicked. As it is now, the skycam could be hit, but if it is,
there is no danger of it falling .

--
I don't think I got the job at Microsoft.
They haven't responded to my telegram.

On 2024-02-20 08:21, Ken Blake wrote:
> On Mon, 19 Feb 2024 21:43:55 +0100, Bertel Lund Hansen
> <gadekryds@lundhansen.dk> wrote:
>
>> Sam Plusnet wrote:
>>
>>> Might a freebooter go ashore and become a freelance?
>>> (Or indeed, vice versa)
>>>
>>> I don't know what the relative rates of pay and levels of risk would be.
>>>
>>> I have no idea why either the boot or the lance should be picked out in
>>> this way.
>>
>> I don't think that it's a boot. Think "booty". In Danish it's a
>> "fribytter", where "bytte" has the same meaning as "booty" - probably
>> the same word.
>
>
> I still remember. It was close to 30 years ago that I was on a cruise
> ship on Halloween. In the auditorium the MC was interviewing several
> people in costumes. One was a boy around 5 or 6 years old, dressed as
> a pirate.
>
> The MC asked, "are you a pirate?"
>
> The boy replied "yes," and the MC then asked, "if you're a pirate,
> where's your booty?"
>
> The boy looked down at his feet and said, "pirates sometimes wear
> sandals."

A friend once told me about a conversation between his two young children:

"Why do they call them 'undies'?"
"Silly, it's because they are under your overies."

--
⨄ International symbol for "More wine, please."

On Tuesday, February 20, 2024 at 12:21:22 AM UTC-8, Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:
> lar3ryca wrote:
>
> >> There are fewer of them now at football games because of the advent of
> >> overhead cameras that are remotely operated and skitter across wires
> >> above the playing field, but I would hardly say "relic" describes the
> >> function. Today's camera operator at a football game is closer to
> >> being a drone controller than a cameraman.
> >
> > They aren't exactly 'skittering across wires'. They are actually
> > suspended by three cables which can be reeled in or let out to position
> > the camera in three dimensions.

> Why don't they use 'free' drones? Is it too dangerous for the players if
> they should drop out of the sky (the drones - not the players)?
>
They're much more likely to drop into the stands, which may have tens
of thousands of people in them, any number of whom could be maimed
by the whirling blades.

Imagine the lawsuits.

bill

On 2024-02-20 19:26, bil...@shaw.ca wrote:
> On Tuesday, February 20, 2024 at 12:21:22 AM UTC-8, Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:
>> lar3ryca wrote:
>>
>>>> There are fewer of them now at football games because of the advent of
>>>> overhead cameras that are remotely operated and skitter across wires
>>>> above the playing field, but I would hardly say "relic" describes the
>>>> function. Today's camera operator at a football game is closer to
>>>> being a drone controller than a cameraman.
>>>
>>> They aren't exactly 'skittering across wires'. They are actually
>>> suspended by three cables which can be reeled in or let out to position
>>> the camera in three dimensions.
>
>> Why don't they use 'free' drones? Is it too dangerous for the players if
>> they should drop out of the sky (the drones - not the players)?
>>
> They're much more likely to drop into the stands, which may have tens
> of thousands of people in them, any number of whom could be maimed
> by the whirling blades.
>
> Imagine the lawsuits.

I once read a caution about drone flying. It was soe\mething like this:

Pretend that your drone is a brick with 4 rotating razors.

--
I read that 10 out of two people are dyslexic.

Monday, Tony Cooper murmurred ...
> On Mon, 19 Feb 2024 20:42:42 -0500, Tony Cooper
> <tonycooper214@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 19 Feb 2024 22:39:25 -0000 (UTC), wollman@bimajority.org
>> (Garrett Wollman) wrote:
>>
>>> In article <uqvkh9$1sps1$1@dont-email.me>,
>>> Bertel Lund Hansen <gadekryds@lundhansen.dk> wrote:
>>>> Hibou wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> It's usual if one doesn't want to be photographed to look daggers at the
>>>>> camera. Looking lances would count as escalation.
>>>>>
>>>>> Whatever, do you mean a still photographer or a TV camera operator?
>>>>
>>>> A camera operator. For a Dane they are all photographers (fotografer).
>>>
>>> In the US, there is a distinction. We used to use the word
>>> "videographer" but nowadays for location reporting it's not uncommon
>>> to call them all "photogs". A "camera operator" would be someone who
>>> operates a camera in a studio (or remotely, in a control room).
>>> "Cameraman" is a relic of history.
>>
>> There are fewer of them now at football games because of the advent of
>> overhead cameras that are remotely operated and skitter across wires
>> above the playing field, but I would hardly say "relic" describes the
>> function. Today's camera operator at a football game is closer to
>> being a drone controller than a cameraman.
>
>
> Drifting a bit...there was a fairly recent thread on a "Bucket
> List"...things one would like to do or accomplish before passing on..
>
> My Bucket List would include going to a professional (American)
> football game with access to the control room where the camera feeds
> are determined. I would love to see how the choices are made in the
> control room for what is shown during a game. There are many cameras
> involved at one time and each play is covered by several cameras.
>
> I've been to many pro football games, but always in the stands. I'd
> like to be in the trailer - usually in the parking lot - where the
> control room is located.

I've seen a youtube covering such camera/director operations, but it
may have been at an airshow rather than a pointy-ball melee. Would
have been for the pylon races whose revival hasn't quite ended.
Unfortunately, tracking that down by using browser history would be a
bit of a chore, so I'll have to cogitate about which channel to look
at.

/dps

--
The presence of this syntax results from the fact that SQLite is really
a Tcl extension that has escaped into the wild.
<http://www.sqlite.org/lang_expr.html>

After serious thinking lar3ryca wrote :
> On 2024-02-20 02:21, Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:
>> lar3ryca wrote:
>>
>>>> There are fewer of them now at football games because of the advent of
>>>> overhead cameras that are remotely operated and skitter across wires
>>>> above the playing field, but I would hardly say "relic" describes the
>>>> function. Today's camera operator at a football game is closer to
>>>> being a drone controller than a cameraman.
>>>
>>> They aren't exactly 'skittering across wires'. They are actually
>>> suspended by three cables which can be reeled in or let out to position
>>> the camera in three dimensions.
>>
>> Why don't they use 'free' drones? Is it too dangerous for the players if
>> they should drop out of the sky (the drones - not the players)?
>
> In our stadium, they do use drones, but they are hovering well above ground,
> but not within the boundaries of the stadium itself, and are used more for
> 'filler' on the Maxtron (scoreboard/replay screen) than for following plays.
>
> If they used them within the stadium for following plays, they would be low
> enough to be at risk of being hit by the ball, especially ones that have been
> kicked. As it is now, the skycam could be hit, but if it is, there is no
> danger of it falling .

There is also the issue of flight time. You don't want a critical
camera having to land for a battery swap or a fresh gas can when you
can't guarantee that's there is enough time before the next play.

You also have a little more freedom in the size of the camera and lens
used, since you can use stronger wires easier than you can increase the
rotor lifting capability.

[rocket nerds have seen live video of SpaceX crews swapping batteries
on a drone that was inspecting launch pad status]

/dps

--
I have always been glad we weren't killed that night. I do not know
any particular reason, but I have always been glad.
_Roughing It_, Mark Twain

Snidely wrote:

> You also have a little more freedom in the size of the camera and lens
> used, since you can use stronger wires easier than you can increase the
> rotor lifting capability.

I don't think that size/weight is a problem.

https://www.droneguru.net/heavy-lift-drones-for-sale/

--
Bertel, Denmark

Saturday, Bertel Lund Hansen quipped:
> Snidely wrote:
>
>> You also have a little more freedom in the size of the camera and lens
>> used, since you can use stronger wires easier than you can increase the
>> rotor lifting capability.
>
> I don't think that size/weight is a problem.
>
> https://www.droneguru.net/heavy-lift-drones-for-sale/

Notice the flight times for those ... 9 minutes for 9 kg load? And
the Alta 8 is priced between $2K and $7K /used/. I don't think it has
the bang for the buck the wire system has.

/dps

--
As a colleague once told me about an incoming manager,
"He does very well in a suck-up, kick-down culture."
Bill in Vancouver