On Sat, 17 Feb 2024 23:31:23 +0000, Paul Wolff
<bounceme@thiswontwork.wolff.co.uk> wrote:

>>>>>>anyone else.
>>>>>>
>>>>> Thank you Athel for the clarification. I've been struggling over
>>>>>the expression "course work" in this discussion, as I've been
>>>>>non-academic for over half a century. When I worked for my first
>>>>>degree, in Oxford chemistry as Athel did, the final year was purely
>>>>>research and a thesis or dissertation, so to me that was part of the course.
>>>> Yes, but the 4th year in chemistry was a bit of an anomaly, even at
>>>>Oxford. I don't think any other subject, not even physics, had it.
>>> Biochemistry too, in my time at least -- you were earlier than me, I
>>>think. Although that fourth year wasn't purely research, a big chunk
>>>of it was a research project.
>>
>>My recollection is that biochemistry was regarded as a kind of
>>chemistry (as it is, of course) and that the 4th year dealt with the
>>points of biochemistry that hadn't been dealt with in the three years
>>of chemistry. In those days I didn't regard myself as a biochemist, and
>>it was all mysterious to me.
>>> There were a few other four-year courses, but my memory is faint.
>>>Forestry?
>>>
>Metallurgy. I don't know how I missed it - in my fourth year, I shared a
>remote cottage with three other contemporaries from the same college,
>and we were all some kind of chemist - apart from me, there were two
>biochemists and one metallurgist, the latter also doing a Part II
>research project (and contributing to my own Part II because he was a
>Somewhat relevant, as fourth year students we were treated as graduates
>by some University regulations, meaning we were allowed to live beyond
>the city boundaries and to drive motor vehicles in the city without
>exhibiting a green light at the front. Or if we weren't allowed, we did,
>anyway.

I can't let that one pass. A green light requirement on the front of
a vehicle in a university city?

On 18/02/24 15:41, Tony Cooper wrote:
> On Sat, 17 Feb 2024 23:31:23 +0000, Paul Wolff
> <bounceme@thiswontwork.wolff.co.uk> wrote:

>> Metallurgy. I don't know how I missed it - in my fourth year, I shared a
>> remote cottage with three other contemporaries from the same college,
>> and we were all some kind of chemist - apart from me, there were two
>> biochemists and one metallurgist, the latter also doing a Part II
>> research project (and contributing to my own Part II because he was a
>> Somewhat relevant, as fourth year students we were treated as graduates
>> by some University regulations, meaning we were allowed to live beyond
>> the city boundaries and to drive motor vehicles in the city without
>> exhibiting a green light at the front. Or if we weren't allowed, we did,
>> anyway.
>
> I can't let that one pass. A green light requirement on the front of
> a vehicle in a university city?

It's better than having to have someone walk in front of the car with a
red flag.

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW

On 2024-02-18 04:41:37 +0000, Tony Cooper said:

> On Sat, 17 Feb 2024 23:31:23 +0000, Paul Wolff
> <bounceme@thiswontwork.wolff.co.uk> wrote:
>
>
>>>>>>> anyone else.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thank you Athel for the clarification. I've been struggling over
>>>>>> the expression "course work" in this discussion, as I've been
>>>>>> non-academic for over half a century. When I worked for my first
>>>>>> degree, in Oxford chemistry as Athel did, the final year was purely
>>>>>> research and a thesis or dissertation, so to me that was part of the course.
>>>>> Yes, but the 4th year in chemistry was a bit of an anomaly, even at
>>>>> Oxford. I don't think any other subject, not even physics, had it.
>>>> Biochemistry too, in my time at least -- you were earlier than me, I
>>>> think. Although that fourth year wasn't purely research, a big chunk
>>>> of it was a research project.
>>>
>>> My recollection is that biochemistry was regarded as a kind of
>>> chemistry (as it is, of course) and that the 4th year dealt with the
>>> points of biochemistry that hadn't been dealt with in the three years
>>> of chemistry. In those days I didn't regard myself as a biochemist, and
>>> it was all mysterious to me.
>>>> There were a few other four-year courses, but my memory is faint.
>>>> Forestry?
>>>>
>> Metallurgy. I don't know how I missed it - in my fourth year, I shared a
>> remote cottage with three other contemporaries from the same college,
>> and we were all some kind of chemist - apart from me, there were two
>> biochemists and one metallurgist, the latter also doing a Part II
>> research project (and contributing to my own Part II because he was a
>> Somewhat relevant, as fourth year students we were treated as graduates
>> by some University regulations, meaning we were allowed to live beyond
>> the city boundaries and to drive motor vehicles in the city without
>> exhibiting a green light at the front. Or if we weren't allowed, we did,
>> anyway.
>
> I can't let that one pass. A green light requirement on the front of
> a vehicle in a university city?

This was sixty or so years ago. Times have changed since then.

--
athel -- biochemist, not a physicist, but detector of crackpots

On Sun, 18 Feb 2024 08:39:10 +0100, Athel Cornish-Bowden
<me@yahoo.com> wrote:

>On 2024-02-18 04:41:37 +0000, Tony Cooper said:
>
>> On Sat, 17 Feb 2024 23:31:23 +0000, Paul Wolff
>> <bounceme@thiswontwork.wolff.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>>>>>> anyone else.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thank you Athel for the clarification. I've been struggling over
>>>>>>> the expression "course work" in this discussion, as I've been
>>>>>>> non-academic for over half a century. When I worked for my first
>>>>>>> degree, in Oxford chemistry as Athel did, the final year was purely
>>>>>>> research and a thesis or dissertation, so to me that was part of the course.
>>>>>> Yes, but the 4th year in chemistry was a bit of an anomaly, even at
>>>>>> Oxford. I don't think any other subject, not even physics, had it.
>>>>> Biochemistry too, in my time at least -- you were earlier than me, I
>>>>> think. Although that fourth year wasn't purely research, a big chunk
>>>>> of it was a research project.
>>>>
>>>> My recollection is that biochemistry was regarded as a kind of
>>>> chemistry (as it is, of course) and that the 4th year dealt with the
>>>> points of biochemistry that hadn't been dealt with in the three years
>>>> of chemistry. In those days I didn't regard myself as a biochemist, and
>>>> it was all mysterious to me.
>>>>> There were a few other four-year courses, but my memory is faint.
>>>>> Forestry?
>>>>>
>>> Metallurgy. I don't know how I missed it - in my fourth year, I shared a
>>> remote cottage with three other contemporaries from the same college,
>>> and we were all some kind of chemist - apart from me, there were two
>>> biochemists and one metallurgist, the latter also doing a Part II
>>> research project (and contributing to my own Part II because he was a
>>> Somewhat relevant, as fourth year students we were treated as graduates
>>> by some University regulations, meaning we were allowed to live beyond
>>> the city boundaries and to drive motor vehicles in the city without
>>> exhibiting a green light at the front. Or if we weren't allowed, we did,
>>> anyway.
>>
>> I can't let that one pass. A green light requirement on the front of
>> a vehicle in a university city?
>
>This was sixty or so years ago. Times have changed since then.

That doesn't explain anything. Why were fourth year students not
required to display a green light, but - presumably - third year
students were required to do so?

What did the number of years of attendance have to do with the need
for the green light?

Sixty years ago would be 1964. I remember the year well; it's the
year I got married. It was decades later than the need to send a
flagman ahead of a motorized carriage in order not to scare the
horses.

On Sun, 18 Feb 2024, at 09:47:30, Tony Cooper posted:
>On Sun, 18 Feb 2024 08:39:10 +0100, Athel Cornish-Bowden
>>On 2024-02-18 04:41:37 +0000, Tony Cooper said:
>>> On Sat, 17 Feb 2024 23:31:23 +0000, Paul Wolff
>>>
>>>>>>>>> anyone else.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Thank you Athel for the clarification. I've been struggling over
>>>>>>>> the expression "course work" in this discussion, as I've been
>>>>>>>> non-academic for over half a century. When I worked for my first
>>>>>>>> degree, in Oxford chemistry as Athel did, the final year was purely
>>>>>>>> research and a thesis or dissertation, so to me that was part
>>>>>>>>of the course.
>>>>>>> Yes, but the 4th year in chemistry was a bit of an anomaly, even at
>>>>>>> Oxford. I don't think any other subject, not even physics, had it.
>>>>>> Biochemistry too, in my time at least -- you were earlier than me, I
>>>>>> think. Although that fourth year wasn't purely research, a big chunk
>>>>>> of it was a research project.
>>>>>
>>>>> My recollection is that biochemistry was regarded as a kind of
>>>>> chemistry (as it is, of course) and that the 4th year dealt with the
>>>>> points of biochemistry that hadn't been dealt with in the three years
>>>>> of chemistry. In those days I didn't regard myself as a biochemist, and
>>>>> it was all mysterious to me.
>>>>>> There were a few other four-year courses, but my memory is faint.
>>>>>> Forestry?
>>>>>>
>>>> Metallurgy. I don't know how I missed it - in my fourth year, I shared a
>>>> remote cottage with three other contemporaries from the same college,
>>>> and we were all some kind of chemist - apart from me, there were two
>>>> biochemists and one metallurgist, the latter also doing a Part II
>>>> research project (and contributing to my own Part II because he was a
>>>> Somewhat relevant, as fourth year students we were treated as graduates
>>>> by some University regulations, meaning we were allowed to live beyond
>>>> the city boundaries and to drive motor vehicles in the city without
>>>> exhibiting a green light at the front. Or if we weren't allowed, we did,
>>>> anyway.
>>>
>>> I can't let that one pass. A green light requirement on the front of
>>> a vehicle in a university city?
>>
>>This was sixty or so years ago. Times have changed since then.
>
>That doesn't explain anything. Why were fourth year students not
>required to display a green light, but - presumably - third year
>students were required to do so?
>
>What did the number of years of attendance have to do with the need
>for the green light?
>
>Sixty years ago would be 1964. I remember the year well; it's the
>year I got married. It was decades later than the need to send a
>flagman ahead of a motorized carriage in order not to scare the
>horses.
>
Tony, it was nothing to do with the romance of the Coopers. Oxford
enjoys a seven-hundred year long history of conflict between townspeople
and students, or "town and gown", and it is really quite a small city
with its centre taken over by ageless university properties (the owners
never die, unlike considerate humans) and it is incapable of
accommodating thousands of students peacefully during term-time. So the
university police (called "proctors", with bowler-hatted deputies called
"bulldogs") contrived a rule that motor vehicles driven by
undergraduates (which they could control, while they were powerless
against the common foe, the town) should be identifiable if they were
legitimate. Of course, if their drivers were illegitimate, they wouldn't
want to be identifiable at all. And I'm not sure what happened in
daylight, except that the green lamps were of a standard kind and so
recognisable on the front of a car even when not lit.

Anyway, the green light or no driving in the city rule was applied only
to undergraduates and, for reasons I don't wholly understand but which
have been touched on in this thread, some fourth-year students were
classed as graduates, even though we hadn't actually taken our degrees
yet, so we escaped the no-cars rule. Most undergraduate courses were
three years flat, so the determinant may have been years, not
graduation, but actually I don't confidently remember.

There is a fine brand of marmalade called Coopers Oxford Marmalade , if
that is any consolation. Or there still is, even if it isn't. That's
Oxford logic for you.
--
Paul W

On 19/02/2024 00:28, Paul Wolff wrote:
> On Sun, 18 Feb 2024, at 09:47:30, Tony Cooper posted:
>> On Sun, 18 Feb 2024 08:39:10 +0100, Athel Cornish-Bowden
>>> On 2024-02-18 04:41:37 +0000, Tony Cooper said:

<snip>

>>
>> What did the number of years of attendance have to do with the need
>> for the green light?
>>
>> Sixty years ago would be 1964.  I remember the year well; it's the
>> year I got married.   It was decades later than the need to send a
>> flagman ahead of a motorized carriage in order not to scare the
>> horses.

I wonder if - if the same principle of of red flagging an imminent
marriage was applied - how many people would still go through the
ceremony?

>>
> Tony, it was nothing to do with the romance of the Coopers. Oxford
> enjoys a seven-hundred year long history of conflict between townspeople
> and students, or "town and gown", and it is really quite a small city
> with its centre taken over by ageless university properties (the owners
> never die, unlike considerate humans) and it is incapable of
> accommodating thousands of students peacefully during term-time. So the
> university police (called "proctors", with bowler-hatted deputies called
> "bulldogs") contrived a rule that motor vehicles driven by
> undergraduates (which they could control, while they were powerless
> against the common foe, the town) should be identifiable if they were
> legitimate. Of course, if their drivers were illegitimate, they wouldn't
> want to be identifiable at all. And I'm not sure what happened in
> daylight, except that the green lamps were of a standard kind and so
> recognisable on the front of a car even when not lit.
>
> Anyway, the green light or no driving in the city rule was applied only
> to undergraduates and, for reasons I don't wholly understand but which
> have been touched on in this thread, some fourth-year students were
> classed as graduates, even though we hadn't actually taken our degrees
> yet, so we escaped the no-cars rule. Most undergraduate courses were
> three years flat, so the determinant may have been years, not
> graduation, but actually I don't confidently remember.

Thank you for that snapshot of Oxford (Oxbridge?) arcana. 1964 was a
decade before my time in the UK.

Knowing that Tony would be interested in a photo of such a lamp, I have
tacked down the following article:

<https://britisharchaeology.ashmus.ox.ac.uk/east-oxford/ob-green-car-lamp.html>

>
> There is a fine brand of marmalade called Coopers Oxford Marmalade , if
> that is any consolation. Or there still is, even if it isn't. That's
> Oxford logic for you.

On 2024-02-18 23:28:00 +0000, Paul Wolff said:
>
> [ … ]
>
>>>> I can't let that one pass. A green light requirement on the front of
>>>> a vehicle in a university city?
>>>
>>> This was sixty or so years ago. Times have changed since then.
>>
>> That doesn't explain anything. Why were fourth year students not
>> required to display a green light, but - presumably - third year
>> students were required to do so?
>>
>> What did the number of years of attendance have to do with the need
>> for the green light?
>>
>> Sixty years ago would be 1964. I remember the year well; it's the
>> year I got married. It was decades later than the need to send a
>> flagman ahead of a motorized carriage in order not to scare the
>> horses.
>>
> Tony, it was nothing to do with the romance of the Coopers. Oxford
> enjoys a seven-hundred year long history of conflict between
> townspeople and students, or "town and gown", and it is really quite a
> small city with its centre taken over by ageless university properties
> (the owners never die, unlike considerate humans) and it is incapable
> of accommodating thousands of students peacefully during term-time. So
> the university police (called "proctors", with bowler-hatted deputies
> called "bulldogs") contrived a rule that motor vehicles driven by
> undergraduates (which they could control, while they were powerless
> against the common foe, the town) should be identifiable if they were
> legitimate. Of course, if their drivers were illegitimate, they
> wouldn't want to be identifiable at all. And I'm not sure what happened
> in daylight, except that the green lamps were of a standard kind and so
> recognisable on the front of a car even when not lit.
>
> Anyway, the green light or no driving in the city rule was applied only
> to undergraduates and, for reasons I don't wholly understand but which
> have been touched on in this thread, some fourth-year students were
> classed as graduates, even though we hadn't actually taken our degrees
> yet,

Yes, but we could, after taking final examinations in chemistry: if we
were content with an ordinary degree (not honours) we were eligible to
graduate and write B.A. after our names. In reality "ordinary degrees"
were not ordinary at all, but very unusual. There was no written
examinations after the 4th year of chemistry ("Part II"), but I think
there was a viva -- I don't really remember, but if there was it wasn't
very traumatic, and that's why I don't remember.

> so we escaped the no-cars rule. Most undergraduate courses were three
> years flat, so the determinant may have been years, not graduation, but
> actually I don't confidently remember.
>
> There is a fine brand of marmalade called Coopers Oxford Marmalade , if
> that is any consolation. Or there still is, even if it isn't. That's
> Oxford logic for you.

--
athel -- biochemist, not a physicist, but detector of crackpots

On Sun, 18 Feb 2024 23:28:00 +0000
Paul Wolff <bounceme@thiswontwork.wolff.co.uk> wrote:

[Snipped green lamps]
> >
> Tony, it was nothing to do with the romance of the Coopers. Oxford
[]
> There is a fine brand of marmalade called Coopers Oxford Marmalade , if
> that is any consolation. Or there still is, even if it isn't. That's
> Oxford logic for you.

Tony might (or might not) be aware of the Australian Brewery of that ilk.
I know of another (UK) brewery that purports to make a Marmalade Porter.

--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.

occam wrote:

> Thank you for that snapshot of Oxford (Oxbridge?) arcana. 1964 was a
> decade before my time in the UK.
>
> Knowing that Tony would be interested in a photo of such a lamp, I have
> tacked down the following article:
>
> <https://britisharchaeology.ashmus.ox.ac.uk/east-oxford/ob-green-car-lamp.html>

Does that mean that we could call Oxford "a green light district"?

--
Bertel, Denmark

In article <ck6u6g3AKp0lFAuV@wolff.co.uk>,
> >
> Tony, it was nothing to do with the romance of the Coopers. Oxford
> enjoys a seven-hundred year long history of conflict between townspeople
> and students, or "town and gown", and it is really quite a small city
> with its centre taken over by ageless university properties (the owners
> never die, unlike considerate humans) and it is incapable of
> accommodating thousands of students peacefully during term-time. So the
> university police (called "proctors", with bowler-hatted deputies called
> "bulldogs") contrived a rule that motor vehicles driven by
> undergraduates (which they could control, while they were powerless
> against the common foe, the town) should be identifiable if they were
> legitimate. Of course, if their drivers were illegitimate, they wouldn't
> want to be identifiable at all. And I'm not sure what happened in
> daylight, except that the green lamps were of a standard kind and so
> recognisable on the front of a car even when not lit.

At Cambridge, Undergraduates were not allowed cars - except for special
reasons. A friend discovered that if he joined the sub-aqua club he needed
a car to carry his SCUBA kit around. He applied to the proctors and
received a permit marked "For underwater use only".

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England - sent from my RISC OS 4té²
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

On 2024-02-07, lar3ryca wrote:

> On 2024-02-07 12:41, Adam Funk wrote:
>> On 2024-02-06, lar3ryca wrote:
>>
>>> On 2024-02-06 06:12, Adam Funk wrote:
>>>> On 2024-02-05, Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> occam wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> You mean 'cock' and 'pussy'. Note, these mental images which only make
>>>>>> sense in English. Just as images of 'Venus' and 'Mars' only make sense
>>>>>> in astronomy department toilets.
>>>>>
>>>>> ... and to people who know the most basic about ancient Roman or Greek
>>>>> religion.
>>>>>
>>>>>> I wonder if there are any universal symbols understood by everyone, by
>>>>>> which I mean everyone on Earth.
>>>>>
>>>>> A simple drawing of persons with with genitals would do the trick.
>>>>
>>>> People complained about the nekkid humans on the Pioneer Plaque. Some
>>>> people also complained about the prudish lack of vulva on it.
>>>
>>> I remember reading something, probably a short story, that had some
>>> aliens finding the Pioneer Plaque and taking umbrage at just about
>>> everything on it, and angering them enough to plan an invasion of Earth.
>>>
>>> Anyone know who wrote it?
>>
>> Does anything on either of these links sound close enough?
>>
>> <https://www.reddit.com/r/scifi/comments/3o8mun/has_anyone_ever_written_a_story_about_aliens/>
>
> Nothing rings a bell, not even in the links on that page, but it did
> lead to a Wikipedia article entitled 'Message From Space', which in turn
> prompted me to look up the 'Message From Space', a 1978 Japanese answer
> to 'Star Wars'. This was supposed to be a serious SF film, but when I
> saw it, it did not take too long before I started chuckling, then
> laughing, much to the chagrin of my wife, who stopped trying to shush me
> after I and the rest of the audience were laughing uproariously.
>
> It got a lot of bad reviews at the time, but I consider it to be one of
> the funniest SF films ever, in the same class as 'Galaxy Quest'.
>
> See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Message_from_Space
>
>> <https://scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/80359/short-story-space-probe-voyager-discovered-by-aliens>
>
> Nothing there either. Thanks for trying.
>
> If my (admittedly faint) memory serves, one of the reasons for umbrage
> was the pulsar periods/coordinates from Earth (the long lines from the
> origin) may have resembled either the aliens that found it or their enemies.

Well, it turns out one of the pulsar specifications is misleading
anyway.

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pioneer_plaque#Sun_and_galactic_landmarks>

--
I thought my life would seem more interesting with a musical
score and a laugh track. ---Calvin

Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:

> On 14/02/24 23:09, J. J. Lodder wrote:
>
> > In these parts the first year of university serves as a selective
> > barrier. Once you have passed the exams at the end of it you are
> > supposed to finnish without further selection. There are exams of
> > course, but these are not supposed to be selective.
>
> Yes. In time I came to accept that a high failure rate in first year is
> a perfectly normal state of affairs. Many students enter university
> without a clear idea of what to expect. At least some come in with the
> expectation that this will be a "party year".
>
> I remember a time when there was strong political pressure on my
> university to fix the "shocking" first year failure rate. The academics
> were convinced, somewhat reluctantly, to make the exams easier to pass.
> This did increase the pass rate, as intended. The following year there
> was a massive jump in failures in second year subjects. The affected
> students had wasted two years of their lives, instead of one.

Have you considered the possibility
that those students didn't consider it a waste?
They did have those parties, eh?
Two years of them, even,

Jan

Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:

> On 16/02/24 18:51, Silvano wrote:
> > Rich Ulrich hat am 16.02.2024 um 00:35 geschrieben:
> >> On Fri, 16 Feb 2024 08:48:15 +1100, Peter Moylan
> >
> >>> As it turned out, I didn't learn enough Russian to be able to
> >>> read technical papers.
> >
> > If it were true, the course would have been a failure, because
> > becoming able to read and understand Russian technical papers was
> > its main purpose. But it must have been a success, because you stated
> > in another posting that even decades later you managed to translate
> > a Russian Powerpoint presentation into English.
>
> Well, yes, but with the aid of Google Translate and two very thick
> dictionaries. (I do happen to own both a Russian-English and an
> English-Russian.) I struggled my way through, but it was the very
> opposite of fluency. Looking back on it, I'd say that I can read German
> better than I can read Russian, even though I never studied German,
> because in German I only need to use a dictionary for every second word.
> Sometimes less, if it happens to be a paper containing lots of mathematics.

Someone I used to know, a mathematician, wrote a paper
in which he quoted some Russian sources.
When asked how he managed that,
being unable to understand a word of Russian,
he said: Oh, I didn't need the words',

Jan

Adam Funk <a24061@ducksburg.com> wrote:

> On 2024-02-07, lar3ryca wrote:
>
> > On 2024-02-07 12:41, Adam Funk wrote:
> >> On 2024-02-06, lar3ryca wrote:
> >>
> >>> On 2024-02-06 06:12, Adam Funk wrote:
> >>>> On 2024-02-05, Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> occam wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> You mean 'cock' and 'pussy'. Note, these mental images which only make
> >>>>>> sense in English. Just as images of 'Venus' and 'Mars' only make sense
> >>>>>> in astronomy department toilets.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> ... and to people who know the most basic about ancient Roman or Greek
> >>>>> religion.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> I wonder if there are any universal symbols understood by everyone, by
> >>>>>> which I mean everyone on Earth.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> A simple drawing of persons with with genitals would do the trick.
> >>>>
> >>>> People complained about the nekkid humans on the Pioneer Plaque. Some
> >>>> people also complained about the prudish lack of vulva on it.
> >>>
> >>> I remember reading something, probably a short story, that had some
> >>> aliens finding the Pioneer Plaque and taking umbrage at just about
> >>> everything on it, and angering them enough to plan an invasion of Earth.
> >>>
> >>> Anyone know who wrote it?
> >>
> >> Does anything on either of these links sound close enough?
> >>
> >> <https://www.reddit.com/r/scifi/comments/3o8mun/has_anyone_ever_written_a_s
tory_about_aliens/>
> >
> > Nothing rings a bell, not even in the links on that page, but it did
> > lead to a Wikipedia article entitled 'Message From Space', which in turn
> > prompted me to look up the 'Message From Space', a 1978 Japanese answer
> > to 'Star Wars'. This was supposed to be a serious SF film, but when I
> > saw it, it did not take too long before I started chuckling, then
> > laughing, much to the chagrin of my wife, who stopped trying to shush me
> > after I and the rest of the audience were laughing uproariously.
> >
> > It got a lot of bad reviews at the time, but I consider it to be one of
> > the funniest SF films ever, in the same class as 'Galaxy Quest'.
> >
> > See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Message_from_Space
> >
> >> <https://scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/80359/short-story-space-probe-vo
yager-discovered-by-aliens>
> >
> > Nothing there either. Thanks for trying.
> >
> > If my (admittedly faint) memory serves, one of the reasons for umbrage
> > was the pulsar periods/coordinates from Earth (the long lines from the
> > origin) may have resembled either the aliens that found it or their enemies.
>
> Well, it turns out one of the pulsar specifications is misleading
> anyway.
>
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pioneer_plaque#Sun_and_galactic_landmarks>

And misleading in other ways as well, by American prudery.
In the original design the woman had an indication of a slit.
By orders of NASA high command this had to be removed,
or they wouldn't approve it for launch.
So those extra-terrestrials finding it eventually may wonder
what that thingy hanging from that other human might be good for,

Jan

On Mon, 19 Feb 2024 11:17:56 +0000
Adam Funk <a24061@ducksburg.com> wrote:

> On 2024-02-07, lar3ryca wrote:
>
> > On 2024-02-07 12:41, Adam Funk wrote:
> >> On 2024-02-06, lar3ryca wrote:
> >>
> >>> On 2024-02-06 06:12, Adam Funk wrote:
> >>>> On 2024-02-05, Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> occam wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> You mean 'cock' and 'pussy'. Note, these mental images which only make
> >>>>>> sense in English. Just as images of 'Venus' and 'Mars' only make sense
> >>>>>> in astronomy department toilets.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> ... and to people who know the most basic about ancient Roman or Greek
> >>>>> religion.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> I wonder if there are any universal symbols understood by everyone, by
> >>>>>> which I mean everyone on Earth.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> A simple drawing of persons with with genitals would do the trick.
> >>>>
> >>>> People complained about the nekkid humans on the Pioneer Plaque. Some
> >>>> people also complained about the prudish lack of vulva on it.
> >>>
> >>> I remember reading something, probably a short story, that had some
> >>> aliens finding the Pioneer Plaque and taking umbrage at just about
> >>> everything on it, and angering them enough to plan an invasion of Earth.
> >>>
> >>> Anyone know who wrote it?
> >>
> >> Does anything on either of these links sound close enough?
> >>
> >> <https://www.reddit.com/r/scifi/comments/3o8mun/has_anyone_ever_written_a_story_about_aliens/>
> >
> > Nothing rings a bell, not even in the links on that page, but it did
> > lead to a Wikipedia article entitled 'Message From Space', which in turn
> > prompted me to look up the 'Message From Space', a 1978 Japanese answer
> > to 'Star Wars'. This was supposed to be a serious SF film, but when I
> > saw it, it did not take too long before I started chuckling, then
> > laughing, much to the chagrin of my wife, who stopped trying to shush me
> > after I and the rest of the audience were laughing uproariously.
> >
> > It got a lot of bad reviews at the time, but I consider it to be one of
> > the funniest SF films ever, in the same class as 'Galaxy Quest'.
> >
> > See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Message_from_Space
> >
> >> <https://scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/80359/short-story-space-probe-voyager-discovered-by-aliens>
> >
> > Nothing there either. Thanks for trying.
> >
> > If my (admittedly faint) memory serves, one of the reasons for umbrage
> > was the pulsar periods/coordinates from Earth (the long lines from the
> > origin) may have resembled either the aliens that found it or their enemies.
>
> Well, it turns out one of the pulsar specifications is misleading
> anyway.
>
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pioneer_plaque#Sun_and_galactic_landmarks>
>
>
No wonder no-one's come calling yet.

--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.

Le 19/02/2024 à 12:03, J. J. Lodder a écrit :
> Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
>>
>> Well, yes, but with the aid of Google Translate and two very thick
>> dictionaries. (I do happen to own both a Russian-English and an
>> English-Russian.) I struggled my way through, but it was the very
>> opposite of fluency. Looking back on it, I'd say that I can read German
>> better than I can read Russian, even though I never studied German,
>> because in German I only need to use a dictionary for every second word.
>> Sometimes less, if it happens to be a paper containing lots of mathematics.
>
> Someone I used to know, a mathematician, wrote a paper
> in which he quoted some Russian sources.
> When asked how he managed that,
> being unable to understand a word of Russian,
> he said: Oh, I didn't need the words',

That's a useful formula.

On 2024-02-19 01:01, occam wrote:
> On 19/02/2024 00:28, Paul Wolff wrote:
>> On Sun, 18 Feb 2024, at 09:47:30, Tony Cooper posted:
>>> On Sun, 18 Feb 2024 08:39:10 +0100, Athel Cornish-Bowden
>>>> On 2024-02-18 04:41:37 +0000, Tony Cooper said:
>
> <snip>
>
>>>
>>> What did the number of years of attendance have to do with the need
>>> for the green light?
>>>
>>> Sixty years ago would be 1964.  I remember the year well; it's the
>>> year I got married.   It was decades later than the need to send a
>>> flagman ahead of a motorized carriage in order not to scare the
>>> horses.
>
> I wonder if - if the same principle of of red flagging an imminent
> marriage was applied - how many people would still go through the
> ceremony?
>
>>>
>> Tony, it was nothing to do with the romance of the Coopers. Oxford
>> enjoys a seven-hundred year long history of conflict between townspeople
>> and students, or "town and gown", and it is really quite a small city
>> with its centre taken over by ageless university properties (the owners
>> never die, unlike considerate humans) and it is incapable of
>> accommodating thousands of students peacefully during term-time. So the
>> university police (called "proctors", with bowler-hatted deputies called
>> "bulldogs") contrived a rule that motor vehicles driven by
>> undergraduates (which they could control, while they were powerless
>> against the common foe, the town) should be identifiable if they were
>> legitimate. Of course, if their drivers were illegitimate, they wouldn't
>> want to be identifiable at all. And I'm not sure what happened in
>> daylight, except that the green lamps were of a standard kind and so
>> recognisable on the front of a car even when not lit.
>>
>> Anyway, the green light or no driving in the city rule was applied only
>> to undergraduates and, for reasons I don't wholly understand but which
>> have been touched on in this thread, some fourth-year students were
>> classed as graduates, even though we hadn't actually taken our degrees
>> yet, so we escaped the no-cars rule. Most undergraduate courses were
>> three years flat, so the determinant may have been years, not
>> graduation, but actually I don't confidently remember.
>
> Thank you for that snapshot of Oxford (Oxbridge?) arcana. 1964 was a
> decade before my time in the UK.
>
> Knowing that Tony would be interested in a photo of such a lamp, I have
> tacked down the following article:
>
> <https://britisharchaeology.ashmus.ox.ac.uk/east-oxford/ob-green-car-lamp.html>

Interesting. I still wonder why the city had special requirements for
some university students, but even more interesting is a phrase on that
page:

"In 1967 the charge for registering cars and the need to buy a lamp to
be displayed were dropped. Instead students had to apply for and display
a sticker, these lasted until 1970 when disc parking was introduced in
Oxford by the City Council."

'disc parking' is a new one for me. Until I looked it up, it brought to
mind some unlikely scenarios.

--
Stop global whining.

On Mon, 19 Feb 2024 08:01:44 +0100, occam <occam@nowhere.nix> wrote:

>On 19/02/2024 00:28, Paul Wolff wrote:
>> On Sun, 18 Feb 2024, at 09:47:30, Tony Cooper posted:
>>> On Sun, 18 Feb 2024 08:39:10 +0100, Athel Cornish-Bowden
>>>> On 2024-02-18 04:41:37 +0000, Tony Cooper said:
>
><snip>
>
>>>
>>> What did the number of years of attendance have to do with the need
>>> for the green light?
>>>
>>> Sixty years ago would be 1964.  I remember the year well; it's the
>>> year I got married.   It was decades later than the need to send a
>>> flagman ahead of a motorized carriage in order not to scare the
>>> horses.
>
>I wonder if - if the same principle of of red flagging an imminent
>marriage was applied - how many people would still go through the
>ceremony?
>
>>>
>> Tony, it was nothing to do with the romance of the Coopers. Oxford
>> enjoys a seven-hundred year long history of conflict between townspeople
>> and students, or "town and gown", and it is really quite a small city
>> with its centre taken over by ageless university properties (the owners
>> never die, unlike considerate humans) and it is incapable of
>> accommodating thousands of students peacefully during term-time. So the
>> university police (called "proctors", with bowler-hatted deputies called
>> "bulldogs") contrived a rule that motor vehicles driven by
>> undergraduates (which they could control, while they were powerless
>> against the common foe, the town) should be identifiable if they were
>> legitimate. Of course, if their drivers were illegitimate, they wouldn't
>> want to be identifiable at all. And I'm not sure what happened in
>> daylight, except that the green lamps were of a standard kind and so
>> recognisable on the front of a car even when not lit.
>>
>> Anyway, the green light or no driving in the city rule was applied only
>> to undergraduates and, for reasons I don't wholly understand but which
>> have been touched on in this thread, some fourth-year students were
>> classed as graduates, even though we hadn't actually taken our degrees
>> yet, so we escaped the no-cars rule. Most undergraduate courses were
>> three years flat, so the determinant may have been years, not
>> graduation, but actually I don't confidently remember.
>
>Thank you for that snapshot of Oxford (Oxbridge?) arcana. 1964 was a
>decade before my time in the UK.
>
>Knowing that Tony would be interested in a photo of such a lamp, I have
>tacked down the following article:
>
><https://britisharchaeology.ashmus.ox.ac.uk/east-oxford/ob-green-car-lamp.html>

Thanks, delightful reading.

There is a report of the count of persons to date who
have been "wounded" by automobiles (1937). That's a
new obsolete usage to me.

--
Rich Ulrich

On 19-Feb-24 8:18, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:
> On Sun, 18 Feb 2024 23:28:00 +0000
> Paul Wolff <bounceme@thiswontwork.wolff.co.uk> wrote:
>
> [Snipped green lamps]
>>>
>> Tony, it was nothing to do with the romance of the Coopers. Oxford
> []
>> There is a fine brand of marmalade called Coopers Oxford Marmalade , if
>> that is any consolation. Or there still is, even if it isn't. That's
>> Oxford logic for you.
>
>
> Tony might (or might not) be aware of the Australian Brewery of that ilk.
> I know of another (UK) brewery that purports to make a Marmalade Porter.
>
Hmm. Those jars of marmalade can be quite heavy, so I can see the
utility of a porter.

--
Sam Plusnet

On 19-Feb-24 11:17, Adam Funk wrote:
> On 2024-02-07, lar3ryca wrote:
>
>> On 2024-02-07 12:41, Adam Funk wrote:
>>> On 2024-02-06, lar3ryca wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 2024-02-06 06:12, Adam Funk wrote:
>>>>> On 2024-02-05, Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> occam wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You mean 'cock' and 'pussy'. Note, these mental images which only make
>>>>>>> sense in English. Just as images of 'Venus' and 'Mars' only make sense
>>>>>>> in astronomy department toilets.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ... and to people who know the most basic about ancient Roman or Greek
>>>>>> religion.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I wonder if there are any universal symbols understood by everyone, by
>>>>>>> which I mean everyone on Earth.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A simple drawing of persons with with genitals would do the trick.
>>>>>
>>>>> People complained about the nekkid humans on the Pioneer Plaque. Some
>>>>> people also complained about the prudish lack of vulva on it.
>>>>
>>>> I remember reading something, probably a short story, that had some
>>>> aliens finding the Pioneer Plaque and taking umbrage at just about
>>>> everything on it, and angering them enough to plan an invasion of Earth.
>>>>
>>>> Anyone know who wrote it?
>>>
>>> Does anything on either of these links sound close enough?
>>>
>>> <https://www.reddit.com/r/scifi/comments/3o8mun/has_anyone_ever_written_a_story_about_aliens/>
>>
>> Nothing rings a bell, not even in the links on that page, but it did
>> lead to a Wikipedia article entitled 'Message From Space', which in turn
>> prompted me to look up the 'Message From Space', a 1978 Japanese answer
>> to 'Star Wars'. This was supposed to be a serious SF film, but when I
>> saw it, it did not take too long before I started chuckling, then
>> laughing, much to the chagrin of my wife, who stopped trying to shush me
>> after I and the rest of the audience were laughing uproariously.
>>
>> It got a lot of bad reviews at the time, but I consider it to be one of
>> the funniest SF films ever, in the same class as 'Galaxy Quest'.
>>
>> See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Message_from_Space
>>
>>> <https://scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/80359/short-story-space-probe-voyager-discovered-by-aliens>
>>
>> Nothing there either. Thanks for trying.
>>
>> If my (admittedly faint) memory serves, one of the reasons for umbrage
>> was the pulsar periods/coordinates from Earth (the long lines from the
>> origin) may have resembled either the aliens that found it or their enemies.
>
> Well, it turns out one of the pulsar specifications is misleading
> anyway.
>
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pioneer_plaque#Sun_and_galactic_landmarks>

Can we issue a patch?

--
Sam Plusnet

On 19/02/24 23:03, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:

>> I remember a time when there was strong political pressure on my
>> university to fix the "shocking" first year failure rate. The academics
>> were convinced, somewhat reluctantly, to make the exams easier to pass.
>> This did increase the pass rate, as intended. The following year there
>> was a massive jump in failures in second year subjects. The affected
>> students had wasted two years of their lives, instead of one.
>
> Have you considered the possibility
> that those students didn't consider it a waste?
> They did have those parties, eh?
> Two years of them, even,

Yes, but at what a cost! They can spend years paying back the loan for
the university fees.

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW

* Rich Ulrich <48v6tid7m6p82ipunft6ljqoif2n9argj0 @4ax.com> :
Wrote on Mon, 19 Feb 2024 11:13:08 -0500:
> On Mon, 19 Feb 2024 08:01:44 +0100, occam <occam@nowhere.nix> wrote:
>>On 19/02/2024 00:28, Paul Wolff wrote:
>>> On Sun, 18 Feb 2024, at 09:47:30, Tony Cooper posted:
>>>> On Sun, 18 Feb 2024 08:39:10 +0100, Athel Cornish-Bowden
>>> Tony, it was nothing to do with the romance of the Coopers. Oxford
>>> enjoys a seven-hundred year long history of conflict between
>>> townspeople and students, or "town and gown", and it is really quite
>>> a small city with its centre taken over by ageless university
>>> properties (the owners never die, unlike considerate humans) and it
>>> is incapable of accommodating thousands of students peacefully
>>> during term-time. So the university police (called "proctors", with
>>> bowler-hatted deputies called "bulldogs") contrived a rule that
>>> motor vehicles driven by undergraduates (which they could control,
>>> while they were powerless against the common foe, the town) should
>>> be identifiable if they were legitimate. Of course, if their drivers
>>> were illegitimate, they wouldn't want to be identifiable at all. And
>>> I'm not sure what happened in daylight, except that the green lamps
>>> were of a standard kind and so recognisable on the front of a car
>>> even when not lit.
>>> Anyway, the green light or no driving in the city rule was applied only
>>> to undergraduates and, for reasons I don't wholly understand but which
>>> have been touched on in this thread, some fourth-year students were
>>> classed as graduates, even though we hadn't actually taken our degrees
>>> yet, so we escaped the no-cars rule. Most undergraduate courses were
>>> three years flat, so the determinant may have been years, not
>>> graduation, but actually I don't confidently remember.
>>
>>Thank you for that snapshot of Oxford (Oxbridge?) arcana. 1964 was a
>>decade before my time in the UK.
>>
>>Knowing that Tony would be interested in a photo of such a lamp, I
>>have tacked down the following article:
>>
>><https://britisharchaeology.ashmus.ox.ac.uk/east-oxford/ob-green-car-lamp.html>
>
> Thanks, delightful reading
>
> There is a report of the count of persons to date who
> have been "wounded" by automobiles (1937). That's a
> new obsolete usage to me.

dorothy sayers has daimlers zipping in and out of Oxford, Ms.Vane was
driving her own car after graduating iirc but at least one undergraduate
(the nephew) had a car at oxford. (I'll try to look it up later, but if
anyone knows of other detective fiction references ..)

lar3ryca <larry@invalid.ca> wrote:

> On 2024-02-19 01:01, occam wrote:
> > On 19/02/2024 00:28, Paul Wolff wrote:
> >> On Sun, 18 Feb 2024, at 09:47:30, Tony Cooper posted:
> >>> On Sun, 18 Feb 2024 08:39:10 +0100, Athel Cornish-Bowden
> >>>> On 2024-02-18 04:41:37 +0000, Tony Cooper said:
> >
> > <snip>
> >
> >>>
> >>> What did the number of years of attendance have to do with the need
> >>> for the green light?
> >>>
> >>> Sixty years ago would be 1964. I remember the year well; it's the
> >>> year I got married. It was decades later than the need to send a
> >>> flagman ahead of a motorized carriage in order not to scare the
> >>> horses.
> >
> > I wonder if - if the same principle of of red flagging an imminent
> > marriage was applied - how many people would still go through the
> > ceremony?
> >
> >>>
> >> Tony, it was nothing to do with the romance of the Coopers. Oxford
> >> enjoys a seven-hundred year long history of conflict between townspeople
> >> and students, or "town and gown", and it is really quite a small city
> >> with its centre taken over by ageless university properties (the owners
> >> never die, unlike considerate humans) and it is incapable of
> >> accommodating thousands of students peacefully during term-time. So the
> >> university police (called "proctors", with bowler-hatted deputies called
> >> "bulldogs") contrived a rule that motor vehicles driven by
> >> undergraduates (which they could control, while they were powerless
> >> against the common foe, the town) should be identifiable if they were
> >> legitimate. Of course, if their drivers were illegitimate, they wouldn't
> >> want to be identifiable at all. And I'm not sure what happened in
> >> daylight, except that the green lamps were of a standard kind and so
> >> recognisable on the front of a car even when not lit.
> >>
> >> Anyway, the green light or no driving in the city rule was applied only
> >> to undergraduates and, for reasons I don't wholly understand but which
> >> have been touched on in this thread, some fourth-year students were
> >> classed as graduates, even though we hadn't actually taken our degrees
> >> yet, so we escaped the no-cars rule. Most undergraduate courses were
> >> three years flat, so the determinant may have been years, not
> >> graduation, but actually I don't confidently remember.
> >
> > Thank you for that snapshot of Oxford (Oxbridge?) arcana. 1964 was a
> > decade before my time in the UK.
> >
> > Knowing that Tony would be interested in a photo of such a lamp, I have
> > tacked down the following article:
> >
> > <https://britisharchaeology.ashmus.ox.ac.uk/east-oxford/ob-green-car-lamp.ht
ml>
>
> Interesting. I still wonder why the city had special requirements for
> some university students, but even more interesting is a phrase on that
> page:
>
> "In 1967 the charge for registering cars and the need to buy a lamp to
> be displayed were dropped. Instead students had to apply for and display
> a sticker, these lasted until 1970 when disc parking was introduced in
> Oxford by the City Council."
>
> 'disc parking' is a new one for me. Until I looked it up, it brought to
> mind some unlikely scenarios.

There were fairly common in Europe, long ago,
because many towns wanted time-limited parking in their centres,
but not paid-for parking. (all to please the shopkeepers of course)

Some clever students, at more practical universites than Oxford,
even invented ingenious motorised ones to advance the disk
in some far too clever invisible way,

Jan

Hibou <vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid> wrote:

> Le 19/02/2024 à 12:03, J. J. Lodder a écrit :
> > Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
> >>
> >> Well, yes, but with the aid of Google Translate and two very thick
> >> dictionaries. (I do happen to own both a Russian-English and an
> >> English-Russian.) I struggled my way through, but it was the very
> >> opposite of fluency. Looking back on it, I'd say that I can read German
> >> better than I can read Russian, even though I never studied German,
> >> because in German I only need to use a dictionary for every second word.
> >> Sometimes less, if it happens to be a paper containing lots of mathematics.
> >
> > Someone I used to know, a mathematician, wrote a paper
> > in which he quoted some Russian sources.
> > When asked how he managed that,
> > being unable to understand a word of Russian,
> > he said: Oh, I didn't need the words',
>
> That's a useful formula.

Yes. Faint echos of Von Neumann, I think,

Jan

Paul Carmichael <wibbleypants@gmail.com> wrote:

> El Mon, 05 Feb 2024 19:46:07 -0500, Tony Cooper escribió:
>
> > On Mon, 5 Feb 2024 23:31:22 +0100, Bertel Lund Hansen
> > <gadekryds@lundhansen.dk> wrote:
> >
> >>Tony Cooper wrote:
> >>
> >>>>I don't know. I just meant that in these days where some people do not
> >>>>want to be called "man" or "woman", they would like a sign that
> >>>>doesn't use those words.
> >>>
> >>> The signs are there to direct the person the appropriate toilet. I
> >>> doubt, when needing to go to the toilet, they will stop to object to
> >>> being gendered.
> >>
> >>True. I'm looking forward to the day where there's only one kind of
> >>toilet rooms.
> >
> > That's rarely an issue for men. Women, however, often object to unisex
> > bathrooms. With cause.
>
>
> France has had unisex toilet facilities forever. Nobody cares.

Eh? Have you ever been to France, I wonder?
Stop at an 'aire' on the Autoroute for example, on a busy day,
and you'll know at once which door is the woman's.
(Hint: it is the one with the long queue)

And no, they all prefer to wait,

Jan