1) He opened the door with some little difficulty.

I had never seen 'some little' used this way before. When I did
I thought it meant 'a little', but I checked and apparently it
means 'a lot of'.

Are you familiar with this idiom?
What does it mean to you?

https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/some-little

--
Gratefully,
Navi

Lost in the Twilight Zone of the English language
Interested in strange structures on the margins of grammaticality
Obsessed with ambiguity

On 14/02/24 16:36, arthurvv vart wrote:

> 1) He opened the door with some little difficulty.
>
> I had never seen 'some little' used this way before. When I did I
> thought it meant 'a little', but I checked and apparently it means 'a
> lot of'.
>
> Are you familiar with this idiom? What does it mean to you?

It's a fairly well-known idiom, and the meaning is intermediate between
"a little" and "a lot". In your example, the difficulty was non-negligible.

> https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/some-little

That Collins dictionary is not very helpful. Moreover, the example it gives:

"Agnes still couldn't answer, though now some little choking noises
emerged."

is not an example of the idiom, because it parses as (some (little
choking noises)). That is, it is a sentence where "some" and "little"
happen to be adjacent, but are not part of the same phrase. I tried to
report this as an error using their link, but that led to an encrypted
web page with no indication of which encryption algorithm they used.

It's surprisingly hard to find a more useful dictionary entry. When I
tried to use OneLook to look up "some little" it have me results for
"some", which was not what I was asking about. Google gives slightly
better answers.

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW

arthurvv vart <arthurvarr@gmail.com> writes:
>1) He opened the door with some little difficulty.

"Some little" can also be used like this:

|The topic is Haiti and she's talking about some tittle party.

.

Le 14/02/2024 à 05:36, arthurvv vart a écrit :
>
> 1) He opened the door with some little difficulty.
>
> I had never seen 'some little' used this way before. When I did
> I thought it meant 'a little', but I checked and apparently it
> means 'a lot of'.
>
> Are you familiar with this idiom?

Yes.

> What does it mean to you?

In this context, 'some little difficulty' means 'a fair amount of
difficulty'.

"I tarri'd some little time at Farley..." - 'The Wiltshire Archeological
and Natural History Magazine', 1869.

Context is important. In "I met some little people", 'some little'
should be taken literally.

On Wed, 14 Feb 2024 17:08:22 +1100, Peter Moylan
<peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:

>On 14/02/24 16:36, arthurvv vart wrote:
>
>> 1) He opened the door with some little difficulty.
>>
>> I had never seen 'some little' used this way before. When I did I
>> thought it meant 'a little', but I checked and apparently it means 'a
>> lot of'.
>>
>> Are you familiar with this idiom? What does it mean to you?
>
>It's a fairly well-known idiom, and the meaning is intermediate between
>"a little" and "a lot". In your example, the difficulty was non-negligible.
>

I find myself expecting "no little difficulty" rather than "some".
The meaning, I think, is about the same.

Google ngrams shows parallel curves for the two idioms,
both of which were 5 or 10 times higher in the 19th C. than
subseequently. There's a minor rise in the 21st C.

>> https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/some-little
>
>That Collins dictionary is not very helpful. Moreover, the example it gives:
>
>"Agnes still couldn't answer, though now some little choking noises
>emerged."
>
>is not an example of the idiom, because it parses as (some (little
>choking noises)). That is, it is a sentence where "some" and "little"
>happen to be adjacent, but are not part of the same phrase. I tried to
>report this as an error using their link, but that led to an encrypted
>web page with no indication of which encryption algorithm they used.
>
>It's surprisingly hard to find a more useful dictionary entry. When I
>tried to use OneLook to look up "some little" it have me results for
>"some", which was not what I was asking about. Google gives slightly
>better answers.

--
Rich Ulrich

testing, sorry
--
Marius Hancu

On 14/02/2024 7:08 p.m., Peter Moylan wrote:
> On 14/02/24 16:36, arthurvv vart wrote:
>
>> 1) He opened the door with some little difficulty.
>>
>> I had never seen 'some little' used this way before. When I did I
>> thought it meant 'a little', but I checked and apparently it means 'a
>> lot of'.
>>
>> Are you familiar with this idiom? What does it mean to you?
>
> It's a fairly well-known idiom, and the meaning is intermediate between
> "a little" and "a lot". In your example, the difficulty was non-negligible.
>
>> https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/some-little
>
> That Collins dictionary is not very helpful. Moreover, the example it
> gives:
>
> "Agnes still couldn't answer, though now some little choking noises
> emerged."
>
> is not an example of the idiom, because it parses as (some (little
> choking noises)). That is, it is a sentence where "some" and "little"
> happen to be adjacent, but are not part of the same phrase. I tried to
> report this as an error using their link, but that led to an encrypted
> web page with no indication of which encryption algorithm they used.
>
> It's surprisingly hard to find a more useful dictionary entry. When I
> tried to use OneLook to look up "some little" it have me results for
> "some", which was not what I was asking about. Google gives slightly
> better answers.
>

Likewise, I had some little trouble finding where it was hidden in OED
Online. It's under "some (adj) I.4.d With adjectives, as little, small,
considerable, etc."

Earliest citation is c1384 "sum litil tyme maad there" from a Wycliffe
Bible (Acts 15:33, NEB "after spending some time there").

Of the nine citations, only three involved adjectives other than "little":
some small quantitie of bay salt (1626)
some considerable time (1716)
some brief time hence (1823)

Thank you all very much,

I am not sure everybody uses these terms in the exact same way. My impression
was that 'no little' meant 'a lot', but 'some little' means, as has been mentioned by
Peter and Hibou, 'non-negligeable'.

I don't get:
some small quantitie of bay salt

How much is that? To me it sounds like it is just the same as 'a small quantity'.

I had heard 'I'll give you some little something'. I think it just means 'a little something'.

--
Gratefully,
Navi

Lost in the Twilight Zone of the English language
Interested in strange structures
Obsessed with ambiguity

arthurvv vart wrote:

> I don't get:
> some small quantitie of bay salt

"small" is here an adjective determining the amount
"some" is here an adjective expressing the degree of certainty/indeterminacy in the subsequent block

Thus something like:

- a /certain/undefined/not precisely known/undetermined/ small quantity of salt

Think about Otto Heisenberg, perhaps.

Also, BTW, there's a famous book of literary criticism
"The Poetics of Indeterminacy: Rimbaud to Cage"
by Marjorie Perloff (she may be 94 now, still amazingly active)
where the latter Rimbaud (the one of "Illuminations") is seen as really
the genius who created/introduced indeterminacy in poetry
and where John Ashbery is presented as one of his major American followers
in that respect.

--
Marius Hancu

On 15/02/24 11:46, arthurvv vart wrote:

> I had heard 'I'll give you some little something'. I think it just
> means 'a little something'.

If you read "a little something", you are probably reading a book about
Pooh Bear. He liked to have a little something at eleven o'clock each
morning -- preferably honey -- and his clock was permanently stopped at
eleven.

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW

On Wed, 14 Feb 2024 16:46:34 -0800 (PST), arthurvv vart
<arthurvarr@gmail.com> wrote:

>
>Thank you all very much,
>
>I am not sure everybody uses these terms in the exact same way. My impression
>was that 'no little' meant 'a lot', but 'some little' means, as has been mentioned by

I said they might be about the same, but today I take that back.
"no little" is certainly more than some little, and it might be as
much as "a lot". My excuse is that I rarely encounter either form,
and they percolated overnight to come to today's conclusion.

>Peter and Hibou, 'non-negligeable'.
>
>I don't get:
>some small quantitie of bay salt
>
>How much is that? To me it sounds like it is just the same as 'a small quantity'.

- maybe - not just ANY small quantity, but some particular small
quantity, yet to be thought out, or not specified here?

>
>I had heard 'I'll give you some little something'. I think it just means 'a little something'.

Again, maybe some thoughtfulness is implied. That's how I
would use it. Or interpret it, on reading it. In person, the
words might mean less than the presentation.

--
Rich Ulrich

On Thu, 15 Feb 2024 15:09:50 +1100
Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:

> On 15/02/24 11:46, arthurvv vart wrote:
>
> > I had heard 'I'll give you some little something'. I think it just
> > means 'a little something'.
>
> If you read "a little something", you are probably reading a book about
> Pooh Bear. He liked to have a little something at eleven o'clock each
> morning -- preferably honey -- and his clock was permanently stopped at
> eleven.
>
I may be repeating myself, but I fondly recall a pub^wbrewery
tap^w^wshelter that had a clock with all numerals of 4. The text on
the face behind the hands stated "We open at 4" - or somesuch, in the
local language. Naturally we were able to have beer there at 10am.
--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.

On Wednesday, February 14, 2024 at 8:55:29 PM UTC-7, Marius_Hancu wrote:
> arthurvv vart wrote:
>
> > I don't get:
> > some small quantitie of bay salt
>
> "small" is here an adjective determining the amount
> "some" is here an adjective expressing the degree of certainty/indeterminacy in the subsequent block
>
> Thus something like:
>
> - a /certain/undefined/not precisely known/undetermined/ small quantity of salt
>
> Think about Otto Heisenberg, perhaps.

Werner doesn't have much to do with a not precisely known quantity of salt.

> Also, BTW, there's a famous book of literary criticism

I'll take your word that it's famous in certain circles.

> "The Poetics of Indeterminacy: Rimbaud to Cage"
> by Marjorie Perloff (she may be 94 now, still amazingly active)
> where the latter Rimbaud (the one of "Illuminations")

So not /Last Blood/?

> is seen as really
> the genius who created/introduced indeterminacy in poetry
> and where John Ashbery is presented as one of his major American followers
> in that respect.

Not a recommendation, if you want my opinion.

--
Jerry Friedman

On 15-Feb-24 3:53, Marius_Hancu wrote:
> arthurvv vart wrote:
>
>> I don't get:
>> some small quantitie of bay salt
>
> "small" is here an adjective determining the amount
> "some" is here an adjective expressing the degree of
> certainty/indeterminacy in the subsequent block

I was hoping someone would mention the use of "bay" in that quote.
Is that the maritime feature, or a reference to the tree/herb?

--
Sam Plusnet

On Thursday, February 15, 2024 at 11:53:56 AM UTC-7, Sam Plusnet wrote:
> On 15-Feb-24 3:53, Marius_Hancu wrote:
> > arthurvv vart wrote:
> >
> >> I don't get:
> >> some small quantitie of bay salt
> >
> > "small" is here an adjective determining the amount
> > "some" is here an adjective expressing the degree of
> > certainty/indeterminacy in the subsequent block
>
> I was hoping someone would mention the use of "bay" in that quote.
> Is that the maritime feature, or a reference to the tree/herb?

Or a horse of a different color?

It's littorally a bay: "1. Salt obtained from seawater by evaporation in
shallow pits or basins, by the heat of the sun.

"Part or all of this entry has been imported from the 1913 edition of
Webster’s Dictionary, which is now free of copyright and hence in the
public domain. The imported definitions may be significantly out of date,
and any more recent senses may be completely missing."

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/bay_salt

--
Jerry Friedman

On 15/02/2024 1:46 p.m., arthurvv vart wrote:
>
> Thank you all very much,
>
> I am not sure everybody uses these terms in the exact same way. My impression
> was that 'no little' meant 'a lot', but 'some little' means, as has been mentioned by
> Peter and Hibou, 'non-negligeable'.
>
> I don't get:
> some small quantitie of bay salt
>
> How much is that? To me it sounds like it is just the same as 'a small quantity'.

It may be.
I think "some" always has to be seen as a grammatical equivalent of "a(n)".

It clearly has the (indefinite, singular) meaning in OE:
Þa sæt þær sum blind þearfa be ðon wege 'there was a blind man sitting
by the road'

And still in ModEng:
A student asked me...
Some student asked me...
There is probably a semantic marking (colouring) with "some" here, but
they are grammatically equivalent.

So that "some little" (which we are talking about) is really just a
variant of "a little".
Now the interesting question is how "a little" (a small quantity of)
develops from "a" + "little". I'll try to go back to that tomorrow...

>
> I had heard 'I'll give you some little something'. I think it just means 'a little something'.
>

On Thursday, February 15, 2024 at 10:52:50 AM UTC-5, Jerry Friedman
> > Also, BTW, there's a famous book of literary criticism
> I'll take your word that it's famous in certain circles.

Well:
http://jacket2.org/article/poetics-indeterminacy
Also: Princeton: Princeton University Press, 1981
I don't think Princeton was a bad place to be published then then.
Stiill referred by many today:
https://www.google.com/search?q=perloff+indeterminacy&sca_esv=5ea4c8dbbd821d13&tbm=bks&ei=XBrQZdiPI7LZ5NoPy8qu-A0&start=10&sa=N&ved=2ahUKEwjYrfyxqrGEAxWyLFkFHUulC98Q8tMDegQIAxAE&biw=677&bih=377&dpr=2.22

> > "The Poetics of Indeterminacy: Rimbaud to Cage"
> > by Marjorie Perloff (she may be 94 now, still amazingly active)
> > where the latter Rimbaud (the one of "Illuminations")
> So not /Last Blood/?

Not Rambo yet.

> > is seen as really
> > the genius who created/introduced indeterminacy in poetry
> > and where John Ashbery is presented as one of his major American followers
> > in that respect.
> Not a recommendation, if you want my opinion.

I like her, sorry.
--
Marius Hancu

On Friday, February 16, 2024 at 7:38:07 PM UTC-7, Marius Hancu wrote:
> On Thursday, February 15, 2024 at 10:52:50 AM UTC-5, Jerry Friedman
> > > Also, BTW, there's a famous book of literary criticism
> > I'll take your word that it's famous in certain circles.
>
> Well:
> http://jacket2.org/article/poetics-indeterminacy
> Also: Princeton: Princeton University Press, 1981
> I don't think Princeton was a bad place to be published then then.
> Stiill referred by many today:
> https://www.google.com/search?q=perloff+indeterminacy&sca_esv=5ea4c8dbbd821d13&tbm=bks&ei=XBrQZdiPI7LZ5NoPy8qu-A0&start=10&sa=N&ved=2ahUKEwjYrfyxqrGEAxWyLFkFHUulC98Q8tMDegQIAxAE&biw=677&bih=377&dpr=2.22

That's what I said--famous in certain circles.

> > > "The Poetics of Indeterminacy: Rimbaud to Cage"
> > > by Marjorie Perloff (she may be 94 now, still amazingly active)
> > > where the latter Rimbaud (the one of "Illuminations")
>
> > So not /Last Blood/?
>
> Not Rambo yet.
>
> > > is seen as really
> > > the genius who created/introduced indeterminacy in poetry
> > > and where John Ashbery is presented as one of his major American followers
> > > in that respect.
>
> > Not a recommendation, if you want my opinion.
>
> I like her, sorry.

Sorry right back at you. I meant that having Ashbery as a follower is not
a recommendation. I'm certainly not in a position to say anything about
Perloff or her books.

--
Jerry Friedman

On Friday, February 16, 2024 at 11:02:04 PM UTC-5, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> On Friday, February 16, 2024 at 7:38:07 PM UTC-7, Marius Hancu wrote:
> > On Thursday, February 15, 2024 at 10:52:50 AM UTC-5, Jerry Friedman
> > > > Also, BTW, there's a famous book of literary criticism
> > > I'll take your word that it's famous in certain circles.
> >
> > Well:
> > http://jacket2.org/article/poetics-indeterminacy
> > Also: Princeton: Princeton University Press, 1981
> > I don't think Princeton was a bad place to be published then then.
> > Stiill referred by many today:
> > https://www.google.com/search?q=perloff+indeterminacy&sca_esv=5ea4c8dbbd821d13&tbm=bks&ei=XBrQZdiPI7LZ5NoPy8qu-A0&start=10&sa=N&ved=2ahUKEwjYrfyxqrGEAxWyLFkFHUulC98Q8tMDegQIAxAE&biw=677&bih=377&dpr=2.22
> That's what I said--famous in certain circles.
> > > > "The Poetics of Indeterminacy: Rimbaud to Cage"
> > > > by Marjorie Perloff (she may be 94 now, still amazingly active)
> > > > where the latter Rimbaud (the one of "Illuminations")
> >
> > > So not /Last Blood/?
> >
> > Not Rambo yet.
> >
> > > > is seen as really
> > > > the genius who created/introduced indeterminacy in poetry
> > > > and where John Ashbery is presented as one of his major American followers
> > > > in that respect.
> >
> > > Not a recommendation, if you want my opinion.
> >
> > I like her, sorry.
> Sorry right back at you. I meant that having Ashbery as a follower is not
> a recommendation. I'm certainly not in a position to say anything about
> Perloff or her books.

Well, I think I agree on Ashbery. I like parts of his style (perhaps mostly to paragraph level:-}} but I have difficulty in finding contents or continuity.

Best.
--
Marius Hancu

On Saturday, February 17, 2024 at 8:44:39 AM UTC-7, Marius Hancu wrote:
> On Friday, February 16, 2024 at 11:02:04 PM UTC-5, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> > On Friday, February 16, 2024 at 7:38:07 PM UTC-7, Marius Hancu wrote:
> > > On Thursday, February 15, 2024 at 10:52:50 AM UTC-5, Jerry Friedman
> > > > > Also, BTW, there's a famous book of literary criticism
> > > > I'll take your word that it's famous in certain circles.
> > >
> > > Well:
> > > http://jacket2.org/article/poetics-indeterminacy
> > > Also: Princeton: Princeton University Press, 1981
> > > I don't think Princeton was a bad place to be published then then.
> > > Stiill referred by many today:
> > > https://www.google.com/search?q=perloff+indeterminacy&sca_esv=5ea4c8dbbd821d13&tbm=bks&ei=XBrQZdiPI7LZ5NoPy8qu-A0&start=10&sa=N&ved=2ahUKEwjYrfyxqrGEAxWyLFkFHUulC98Q8tMDegQIAxAE&biw=677&bih=377&dpr=2.22
> > That's what I said--famous in certain circles.
> > > > > "The Poetics of Indeterminacy: Rimbaud to Cage"
> > > > > by Marjorie Perloff (she may be 94 now, still amazingly active)
> > > > > where the latter Rimbaud (the one of "Illuminations")
....

> > > > > is seen as really
> > > > > the genius who created/introduced indeterminacy in poetry
> > > > > and where John Ashbery is presented as one of his major American followers
> > > > > in that respect.
> > >
> > > > Not a recommendation, if you want my opinion.
> > >
> > > I like her, sorry.
>
> > Sorry right back at you. I meant that having Ashbery as a follower is not
> > a recommendation. I'm certainly not in a position to say anything about
> > Perloff or her books.

> Well, I think I agree on Ashbery. I like parts of his style (perhaps mostly to paragraph level:-}} but I have difficulty in finding contents or continuity.

Isn't that the very indeterminacy she's talking about? In the part of that
book I can see on Google Books, she writes about his poem "The
Lacustrine Cities":

"Indeed, the poem blocks all attempts to rationalize its imagery, to make it
conform to a coherent pattern.

"In Ashbery's verbal landscape, fragmented images appear one by one--cities,
sky, swans, tapering branches, violent sea, desert, mountain--without
coalescing into a symbolic network."

--
Jerry Friedman

On Saturday, February 17, 2024 at 7:10:04 PM UTC-5, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> On Saturday, February 17, 2024 at 8:44:39 AM UTC-7, Marius Hancu wrote:
> > On Friday, February 16, 2024 at 11:02:04 PM UTC-5, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> > > On Friday, February 16, 2024 at 7:38:07 PM UTC-7, Marius Hancu wrote:
> > > > On Thursday, February 15, 2024 at 10:52:50 AM UTC-5, Jerry Friedman
> > > > > > Also, BTW, there's a famous book of literary criticism
> > > > > I'll take your word that it's famous in certain circles.
> > > >
> > > > Well:
> > > > http://jacket2.org/article/poetics-indeterminacy
> > > > Also: Princeton: Princeton University Press, 1981
> > > > I don't think Princeton was a bad place to be published then then.
> > > > Stiill referred by many today:
> > > > https://www.google.com/search?q=perloff+indeterminacy&sca_esv=5ea4c8dbbd821d13&tbm=bks&ei=XBrQZdiPI7LZ5NoPy8qu-A0&start=10&sa=N&ved=2ahUKEwjYrfyxqrGEAxWyLFkFHUulC98Q8tMDegQIAxAE&biw=677&bih=377&dpr=2.22
> > > That's what I said--famous in certain circles.
> > > > > > "The Poetics of Indeterminacy: Rimbaud to Cage"
> > > > > > by Marjorie Perloff (she may be 94 now, still amazingly active)
> > > > > > where the latter Rimbaud (the one of "Illuminations")
> ...
> > > > > > is seen as really
> > > > > > the genius who created/introduced indeterminacy in poetry
> > > > > > and where John Ashbery is presented as one of his major American followers
> > > > > > in that respect.
> > > >
> > > > > Not a recommendation, if you want my opinion.
> > > >
> > > > I like her, sorry.
> >
> > > Sorry right back at you. I meant that having Ashbery as a follower is not
> > > a recommendation. I'm certainly not in a position to say anything about
> > > Perloff or her books.
>
> > Well, I think I agree on Ashbery. I like parts of his style (perhaps mostly to paragraph level:-}} but I have difficulty in finding contents or continuity.
> Isn't that the very indeterminacy she's talking about? In the part of that
> book I can see on Google Books, she writes about his poem "The
> Lacustrine Cities":
>
> "Indeed, the poem blocks all attempts to rationalize its imagery, to make it
> conform to a coherent pattern.
>
> "In Ashbery's verbal landscape, fragmented images appear one by one--cities,
> sky, swans, tapering branches, violent sea, desert, mountain--without
> coalescing into a symbolic network."

Yes, that's exactly it.
Glad you find it, as
I feel this is a lady - Perloff - who's not hiding from clear assessments.

Otherwise, IMO, say in a multi-dimensional geometry, it's not providing sufficient information
to be dealing with all the coordinates of a sequence of points
on a trajectory.

Best.
--
Marius Hancu

On Sunday, February 18, 2024 at 10:32:45 AM UTC-5, Marius Hancu wrote:
> On Saturday, February 17, 2024 at 7:10:04 PM UTC-5, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> > On Saturday, February 17, 2024 at 8:44:39 AM UTC-7, Marius Hancu wrote:
> > > On Friday, February 16, 2024 at 11:02:04 PM UTC-5, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> > > > On Friday, February 16, 2024 at 7:38:07 PM UTC-7, Marius Hancu wrote:
> > > > > On Thursday, February 15, 2024 at 10:52:50 AM UTC-5, Jerry Friedman
> > > > > > > Also, BTW, there's a famous book of literary criticism
> > > > > > I'll take your word that it's famous in certain circles.
> > > > >
> > > > > Well:
> > > > > http://jacket2.org/article/poetics-indeterminacy
> > > > > Also: Princeton: Princeton University Press, 1981
> > > > > I don't think Princeton was a bad place to be published then then..
> > > > > Stiill referred by many today:
> > > > > https://www.google.com/search?q=perloff+indeterminacy&sca_esv=5ea4c8dbbd821d13&tbm=bks&ei=XBrQZdiPI7LZ5NoPy8qu-A0&start=10&sa=N&ved=2ahUKEwjYrfyxqrGEAxWyLFkFHUulC98Q8tMDegQIAxAE&biw=677&bih=377&dpr=2.22
> > > > That's what I said--famous in certain circles.
> > > > > > > "The Poetics of Indeterminacy: Rimbaud to Cage"
> > > > > > > by Marjorie Perloff (she may be 94 now, still amazingly active)
> > > > > > > where the latter Rimbaud (the one of "Illuminations")
> > ...
> > > > > > > is seen as really
> > > > > > > the genius who created/introduced indeterminacy in poetry
> > > > > > > and where John Ashbery is presented as one of his major American followers
> > > > > > > in that respect.
> > > > >
> > > > > > Not a recommendation, if you want my opinion.
> > > > >
> > > > > I like her, sorry.
> > >
> > > > Sorry right back at you. I meant that having Ashbery as a follower is not
> > > > a recommendation. I'm certainly not in a position to say anything about
> > > > Perloff or her books.
> >
> > > Well, I think I agree on Ashbery. I like parts of his style (perhaps mostly to paragraph level:-}} but I have difficulty in finding contents or continuity.
> > Isn't that the very indeterminacy she's talking about? In the part of that
> > book I can see on Google Books, she writes about his poem "The
> > Lacustrine Cities":
> >
> > "Indeed, the poem blocks all attempts to rationalize its imagery, to make it
> > conform to a coherent pattern.
> >
> > "In Ashbery's verbal landscape, fragmented images appear one by one--cities,
> > sky, swans, tapering branches, violent sea, desert, mountain--without
> > coalescing into a symbolic network."
> Yes, that's exactly it.
> Glad you find it, as
> I feel this is a lady - Perloff - who's not hiding from clear assessments..
>
> Otherwise, IMO, say in a multi-dimensional geometry, it's not providing sufficient information
> to be dealing with all the coordinates of a sequence of points
> on a trajectory.

BtTW, Ashbery spent several years in France and authored a very good
translation of Rimbaud's "Illuminations"
ISBN-10 ‏ : ‎ 0393341828
a bilingual edition.

--
Marius Hancu