The presidents of Harvard, MIT, and Penn were all asked the following
question under oath at a congressional hearing on antisemitism:

Does calling for the genocide of Jews violate [your university’s] code of conduct or rules regarding bullying or harassment?

I comment:
International law on genocide doesn't mention Jews in particular; there
ought not be a mention of Jews in a university's code either.
https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide.shtml

But a genocide of Jews would violate international law, Jews don't
have to be mentioned in the law for that to be a violation.
Presumably calling for genocide of any religious or ethnic group,
not Jews in particular, would be a violation too, even without
commencing on such a genocide. If such is coded in International
law, why must it be in a university's code too? Should a university's
code mention every possible crime?

A better question for the Prexes would have been: If some of your
students call for a genocide of Jews, what if any statute of your
code of conduct or rules could Jewish students charge them with
violating and what penalties are provided for?

On Wednesday, December 6, 2023 at 8:15:21 PM UTC-7, Dingbat wrote:
> The presidents of Harvard, MIT, and Penn were all asked the following
> question under oath at a congressional hearing on antisemitism:
>
> Does calling for the genocide of Jews violate [your university’s] code of conduct or rules regarding bullying or harassment?
>
> I comment:
> International law on genocide doesn't mention Jews in particular; there
> ought not be a mention of Jews in a university's code either.
> https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide.shtml

I agree. Nobody said there should be such a mention, but whoever asked
that question might have been able to ask it better--but of course they're
posturing, not engaging in rigorous debate.

> But a genocide of Jews would violate international law, Jews don't
> have to be mentioned in the law for that to be a violation.
> Presumably calling for genocide of any religious or ethnic group,
> not Jews in particular, would be a violation too, even without
> commencing on such a genocide.

No, it would not.

> If such is coded in International
> law, why must it be in a university's code too? Should a university's
> code mention every possible crime?

Calling for genocide is not illegal according to that treaty or under
American law. The Supreme Court would probably strike down such a
law unless it's restricted to situations with a potential for imminent
violence.

> A better question for the Prexes would have been: If some of your
> students call for a genocide of Jews, what if any statute of your
> code of conduct or rules could Jewish students charge them with
> violating and what penalties are provided for?

Better yet: Does calling for genocide violate your university's code
of conduct or rules?

(Any student or employee could report a violation.)

--
Jerry Friedman

Le 07/12/2023 à 04:26, Jerry Friedman a écrit :
> On Wednesday, December 6, 2023 at 8:15:21 PM UTC-7, Dingbat wrote:
>>
>> If such is coded in International
>> law, why must it be in a university's code too? Should a university's
>> code mention every possible crime?
>
> Calling for genocide is not illegal according to that treaty or under
> American law. The Supreme Court would probably strike down such a
> law unless it's restricted to situations with a potential for imminent
> violence.
>
>> A better question for the Prexes would have been: If some of your
>> students call for a genocide of Jews, what if any statute of your
>> code of conduct or rules could Jewish students charge them with
>> violating and what penalties are provided for?
>
> Better yet: Does calling for genocide violate your university's code
> of conduct or rules? [...]

Why would a university's code of conduct be stricter than national law?

On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 4:34:02 AM UTC-7, Hibou wrote:
> Le 07/12/2023 à 04:26, Jerry Friedman a écrit :
> > On Wednesday, December 6, 2023 at 8:15:21 PM UTC-7, Dingbat wrote:
> >>
> >> If such is coded in International
> >> law, why must it be in a university's code too? Should a university's
> >> code mention every possible crime?
> >
> > Calling for genocide is not illegal according to that treaty or under
> > American law. The Supreme Court would probably strike down such a
> > law unless it's restricted to situations with a potential for imminent
> > violence.
> >
> >> A better question for the Prexes would have been: If some of your
> >> students call for a genocide of Jews, what if any statute of your
> >> code of conduct or rules could Jewish students charge them with
> >> violating and what penalties are provided for?
> >
> > Better yet: Does calling for genocide violate your university's code
> > of conduct or rules? [...]
>
> Why would a university's code of conduct be stricter than national law?
....

To try to preserve conditions conducive to studying (and to prevent
cheating, which isn't what we're talking about here).

--
Jerry Friedman

Le 07/12/2023 à 15:22, Jerry Friedman a écrit :
> On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 4:34:02 AM UTC-7, Hibou wrote:
>> Le 07/12/2023 à 04:26, Jerry Friedman a écrit :
>>> On Wednesday, December 6, 2023 at 8:15:21 PM UTC-7, Dingbat wrote:
>>>>
>>>> If such is coded in International
>>>> law, why must it be in a university's code too? Should a university's
>>>> code mention every possible crime?
>>>
>>> Calling for genocide is not illegal according to that treaty or under
>>> American law. The Supreme Court would probably strike down such a
>>> law unless it's restricted to situations with a potential for imminent
>>> violence.
>>>
>>>> A better question for the Prexes would have been: If some of your
>>>> students call for a genocide of Jews, what if any statute of your
>>>> code of conduct or rules could Jewish students charge them with
>>>> violating and what penalties are provided for?
>>>
>>> Better yet: Does calling for genocide violate your university's code
>>> of conduct or rules? [...]
>>
>> Why would a university's code of conduct be stricter than national law?
> ...
>
> To try to preserve conditions conducive to studying (and to prevent
> cheating, which isn't what we're talking about here).

A code of conduct to prevent cheating is reasonable, but we were talking
of free speech. My idea of a university is that it's a laboratory for
ideas, a place where any idea can be proposed and opposed. "Let's kill
all the lawyers!" ('Henry VI Part 2') "Why?" "Because...." "That's a bad
idea because...." And so on.

I disagree with what you say, but will defend to the death your right to
say it - If we don't believe in free speech for those we despise, then
we don't believe in it at all - that sort of thing.

If ideas are aired in public, then they can be examined and if
appropriate refuted. If they're driven underground, they'll be expressed
only to people who accept them, and spread like rhizomes.

On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 11:12:31 PM UTC-7, Hibou wrote:
> Le 07/12/2023 à 15:22, Jerry Friedman a écrit :
> > On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 4:34:02 AM UTC-7, Hibou wrote:
> >> Le 07/12/2023 à 04:26, Jerry Friedman a écrit :
> >>> On Wednesday, December 6, 2023 at 8:15:21 PM UTC-7, Dingbat wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> If such is coded in International
> >>>> law, why must it be in a university's code too? Should a university's
> >>>> code mention every possible crime?
> >>>
> >>> Calling for genocide is not illegal according to that treaty or under
> >>> American law. The Supreme Court would probably strike down such a
> >>> law unless it's restricted to situations with a potential for imminent
> >>> violence.
> >>>
> >>>> A better question for the Prexes would have been: If some of your
> >>>> students call for a genocide of Jews, what if any statute of your
> >>>> code of conduct or rules could Jewish students charge them with
> >>>> violating and what penalties are provided for?
> >>>
> >>> Better yet: Does calling for genocide violate your university's code
> >>> of conduct or rules? [...]
> >>
> >> Why would a university's code of conduct be stricter than national law?
> > ...
> >
> > To try to preserve conditions conducive to studying (and to prevent
> > cheating, which isn't what we're talking about here).
>
> A code of conduct to prevent cheating is reasonable, but we were talking
> of free speech.

That's what I said.

> My idea of a university is that it's a laboratory for
> ideas, a place where any idea can be proposed and opposed. "Let's kill
> all the lawyers!" ('Henry VI Part 2') "Why?" "Because...." "That's a bad
> idea because...." And so on.
>
> I disagree with what you say, but will defend to the death your right to
> say it - If we don't believe in free speech for those we despise, then
> we don't believe in it at all - that sort of thing.
>
> If ideas are aired in public, then they can be examined and if
> appropriate refuted. If they're driven underground, they'll be expressed
> only to people who accept them, and spread like rhizomes.

Yes, that's why the U.S. has no laws against hate speech. The difficulty
arises when the ideas are insults or threats--especially if the insults
are based on widespread stereotypes--since the university wants
all its customers to feel welcome and safe there, and fear and anger
aren't good for one's education. (Except for the fear of not doing
well in one's education.)

--
Jerry Friedman

Jerry Friedman wrote:

> Yes, that's why the U.S. has no laws against hate speech. The difficulty
> arises when the ideas are insults or threats--especially if the insults
> are based on widespread stereotypes--since the university wants
> all its customers to feel welcome and safe there, and fear and anger
> aren't good for one's education. (Except for the fear of not doing
> well in one's education.)

That fear can be crippling as well. I took a bachelor's degree in
computer science, and one young woman on our team was totally in tears
with every exam, and I don't think that she was able to say anything
meaningful in the exam room. In the daily work she was an average
student doing okay.

--
Bertel, Denmark

On 09/12/23 06:25, Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:
> Jerry Friedman wrote:
>
>> Yes, that's why the U.S. has no laws against hate speech. The
>> difficulty arises when the ideas are insults or threats--especially
>> if the insults are based on widespread stereotypes--since the
>> university wants all its customers to feel welcome and safe there,
>> and fear and anger aren't good for one's education. (Except for
>> the fear of not doing well in one's education.)
>
> That fear can be crippling as well. I took a bachelor's degree in
> computer science, and one young woman on our team was totally in
> tears with every exam, and I don't think that she was able to say
> anything meaningful in the exam room. In the daily work she was an
> average student doing okay.

I once met a more extreme case of that. A young woman who reacted so
badly at exam time that she ended up in hospital every time. After
checking out what was going wrong, I recommended that she stop living
with her father, who was putting pressure on her to get high grades.
That solved the problem.

In another case of undue pressure from a student's father, we had
someone who did brilliantly in class, but failed every exam. (Except
German, where he took out a prize every year.) It turned out that he was
failing as a protest. He wanted to do an Arts degree but his father
insisted on Engineering. Eventually the Dean of Engineering called in
the student and his father and told them there were only two options
left: be expelled from the university for lack of progress, or transfer
to an Arts degree. The father had to give in.

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW