In a BBC News report about the state of the economy in the US, the US
correspondent corrected the anchor regarding the pronunciation of the US
store chain 'Target'. 'Tar-jay' not 'tar-get'.

A google search says:

"Why is target pronounced Tarjay?
Tarjay was pronounced with a faux French accent, suggesting that
Target's fashions were chic but affordable."

Is this pronunciation widely used, or is it a flight of fantasy on
behalf of the Target marketing group?

On 18/08/23 16:06, occam wrote:

> In a BBC News report about the state of the economy in the US, the US
> correspondent corrected the anchor regarding the pronunciation of the US
> store chain 'Target'. 'Tar-jay' not 'tar-get'.
>
> A google search says:
>
> "Why is target pronounced Tarjay?
> Tarjay was pronounced with a faux French accent, suggesting that
> Target's fashions were chic but affordable."
>
> Is this pronunciation widely used, or is it a flight of fantasy on
> behalf of the Target marketing group?

It's a commonly-used joke here, but it's not the chain's name.

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW

On Thursday, August 17, 2023 at 11:30:46 PM UTC-7, Peter Moylan wrote:
> On 18/08/23 16:06, occam wrote:
>
> > In a BBC News report about the state of the economy in the US, the US
> > correspondent corrected the anchor regarding the pronunciation of the US
> > store chain 'Target'. 'Tar-jay' not 'tar-get'.
> >
> > A google search says:
> >
> > "Why is target pronounced Tarjay?
> > Tarjay was pronounced with a faux French accent, suggesting that
> > Target's fashions were chic but affordable."
> >
> > Is this pronunciation widely used, or is it a flight of fantasy on
> > behalf of the Target marketing group?
> It's a commonly-used joke here, but it's not the chain's name.
>
We have Target stores here in Western Canada. That's Tar-get, not
Tar-jay or Tar-gay. Often found in the same building as Winners stores.

bill

occam wrote:

> "Why is target pronounced Tarjay?
> Tarjay was pronounced with a faux French accent, suggesting that
> Target's fashions were chic but affordable."
>
>
> Is this pronunciation widely used, or is it a flight of fantasy on
> behalf of the Target marketing group?

Wikipedia has an article:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Target_Corporation

Text-search for "pronun".

--
Bertel, Denmark

Le 18/08/2023 à 08:16, Bertel Lund Hansen a écrit :
>  occam wrote:
>>
>> "Why is target pronounced Tarjay?
>> Tarjay was pronounced with a faux French accent, suggesting that
>> Target's fashions were chic but affordable."
>>
>>
>> Is this pronunciation widely used, or is it a flight of fantasy on
>> behalf of the Target marketing group?
>
> Wikipedia has an article:
>
>       https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Target_Corporation
>
> Text-search for "pronun".

Ha! Cod French. (The French word for target is 'cible'.)

In article <kk8g2vFm4jkU1@mid.individual.net>,
occam@nowhere.nix says...
>
> In a BBC News report about the state of the economy in the US, the US
> correspondent corrected the anchor regarding the pronunciation of the US
> store chain 'Target'. 'Tar-jay' not 'tar-get'.
>
> A google search says:
>
> "Why is target pronounced Tarjay?
> Tarjay was pronounced with a faux French accent, suggesting that
> Target's fashions were chic but affordable."
> Is this pronunciation widely used, or is it a flight of fantasy on
> behalf of the Target marketing group?

or Hyacinth Bucket.

Janet

On Thursday, occam yelped out that:
> In a BBC News report about the state of the economy in the US, the US
> correspondent corrected the anchor regarding the pronunciation of the US
> store chain 'Target'. 'Tar-jay' not 'tar-get'.
>
> A google search says:
>
> "Why is target pronounced Tarjay?
> Tarjay was pronounced with a faux French accent, suggesting that
> Target's fashions were chic but affordable."
>
>
> Is this pronunciation widely used, or is it a flight of fantasy on
> behalf of the Target marketing group?

It's a widely used joking pronunciation that's been around since at
least 1987. My then-wife used it on occasion, and I've heard it from
other people since then (and have used it myself).

As far as I know, it hasn't been used in a Target ad, and the corporate
symbol is a simplified target (red dot centered in a red ring).

/dps

--
Yes, I have had a cucumber soda. Why do you ask?

On 18/08/2023 09:16, Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:
>  occam wrote:
>
>> "Why is target pronounced Tarjay?
>> Tarjay was pronounced with a faux French accent, suggesting that
>> Target's fashions were chic but affordable."
>>
>>
>> Is this pronunciation widely used, or is it a flight of fantasy on
>> behalf of the Target marketing group?
>
> Wikipedia has an article:
>
>       https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Target_Corporation
>

Fron the web page:

"Targét
Some people jokingly give Target the pseudo-French pronunciation
/tɑːrˈʒeɪ/ tar-ZHAY, as though it were an upscale boutique.[130][131]
Though this practice is often attributed to Oprah Winfrey's usage on her
television show, it is first attested in 1962, the year the first Target
store opened."

>

On Friday, August 18, 2023 at 2:06:29 AM UTC-4, occam wrote:
> In a BBC News report about the state of the economy in the US, the US
> correspondent corrected the anchor regarding the pronunciation of the US
> store chain 'Target'. 'Tar-jay' not 'tar-get'.
>
> A google search says:
>
> "Why is target pronounced Tarjay?
> Tarjay was pronounced with a faux French accent, suggesting that
> Target's fashions were chic but affordable."
>
>
> Is this pronunciation widely used, or is it a flight of fantasy on
> behalf of the Target marketing group?

It was a gay thing in Chicago in the 1970s, when they positioned themselves
as a step above K-Mart. (And it's "tar-ZHAY.") That was before Walmart was
even in the suburbs.

Similarly, there was a chain of homey all-night restaurants around the city
called Golden Nugget (at some point they became independent and each
took a name that was similar). The one in the main gay neighborhood was
known as the noo-zhay d'or.

On 19/08/23 00:55, Peter T. Daniels wrote:

> (And it's "tar-ZHAY.")

You use final-syllable stress even for fake French? That's weird.

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW

On Friday, August 18, 2023 at 5:40:00 PM UTC-6, Peter Moylan wrote:
> On 19/08/23 00:55, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>
> > (And it's "tar-ZHAY.")
> You use final-syllable stress even for fake French? That's weird.

That's so people can tell it's French.

--
Jerry Friedman

On 19/08/23 10:21, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> On Friday, August 18, 2023 at 5:40:00 PM UTC-6, Peter Moylan wrote:
>> On 19/08/23 00:55, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>>
>>> (And it's "tar-ZHAY.")
>> You use final-syllable stress even for fake French? That's weird.
>
> That's so people can tell it's French.

And so French people can tell it isn't.

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW

On 2023-08-18 23:39:51 +0000, Peter Moylan said:

> On 19/08/23 00:55, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>
>> (And it's "tar-ZHAY.")
>
> You use final-syllable stress even for fake French? That's weird.

Not really. Americans, even ones trained in linguistics, have an
unshakeable conviction that all French words have heavy stress on the
last syllable.

--
Athel -- French and British, living in Marseilles for 36 years; mainly
in England until 1987.

On 19/08/23 16:36, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> On 2023-08-18 23:39:51 +0000, Peter Moylan said:
>
>> On 19/08/23 00:55, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>>
>>> (And it's "tar-ZHAY.")
>>
>> You use final-syllable stress even for fake French? That's weird.
>
> Not really. Americans, even ones trained in linguistics, have an
> unshakeable conviction that all French words have heavy stress on the
> last syllable.

That's not entirely surprising. When you hear something that's different
from what your native language does, there's a tendency to hear stuff,
like stresses, that isn't there. We force foreign words into
pigeon-holes that fit our preconceptions.

English speakers often think that Japanese people say 'r' when it should
be 'l', and vice versa. It's because they're using an intermediate
consonant that doesn't occur in English.

P.S. It's probably not all Americans.

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW

Le 19/08/2023 à 07:36, Athel Cornish-Bowden a écrit :
> On 2023-08-18 23:39:51 +0000, Peter Moylan said:
>> On 19/08/23 00:55, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>>>
>>> (And it's "tar-ZHAY.")
>>
>> You use final-syllable stress even for fake French? That's weird.
>
> Not really. Americans, even ones trained in linguistics, have an
> unshakeable conviction that all French words have heavy stress on the
> last syllable.

IncroyABLE !

(Or one can click on the little loudspeaker:

<https://dictionnaire.lerobert.com/definition/incroyable>)

Le vendredi 18 août 2023 à 16:56:00 UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels a écrit :
> On Friday, August 18, 2023 at 2:06:29 AM UTC-4, occam wrote:
> > In a BBC News report about the state of the economy in the US, the US
> > correspondent corrected the anchor regarding the pronunciation of the US
> > store chain 'Target'. 'Tar-jay' not 'tar-get'.
> >
> > A google search says:
> >
> > "Why is target pronounced Tarjay?
> > Tarjay was pronounced with a faux French accent, suggesting that
> > Target's fashions were chic but affordable."
> >
> >
> > Is this pronunciation widely used, or is it a flight of fantasy on
> > behalf of the Target marketing group?
> It was a gay thing in Chicago in the 1970s, when they positioned themselves
> as a step above K-Mart. (And it's "tar-ZHAY.") That was before Walmart was
> even in the suburbs.
>
> Similarly, there was a chain of homey all-night restaurants around the city
> called Golden Nugget (at some point they became independent and each
> took a name that was similar). The one in the main gay neighborhood was
> known as the noo-zhay d'or.

noo-gay would have been more adequate.

Le samedi 19 août 2023 à 09:07:40 UTC+2, Peter Moylan a écrit :
> On 19/08/23 16:36, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> > On 2023-08-18 23:39:51 +0000, Peter Moylan said:
> >
> >> On 19/08/23 00:55, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> >>
> >>> (And it's "tar-ZHAY.")
> >>
> >> You use final-syllable stress even for fake French? That's weird.
> >
> > Not really. Americans, even ones trained in linguistics, have an
> > unshakeable conviction that all French words have heavy stress on the
> > last syllable.
> That's not entirely surprising. When you hear something that's different
> from what your native language does, there's a tendency to hear stuff,
> like stresses, that isn't there.

There is indeed stress on the final syllable of words in French. Spanish is
well-known to have stress (el "acento tónico") and if you compare e.g. French
"ottomane" and Spanish "otomán" (where the acute accent is there to force
the stress on -mán), you'll notice that French -mane is no less stressed than
Spanish -mán:

https://fr.forvo.com/search/ottomane/fr/
https://fr.forvo.com/search/otom%C3%A1n/es/

> We force foreign words into
> pigeon-holes that fit our preconceptions.
>
> English speakers often think that Japanese people say 'r' when it should
> be 'l', and vice versa. It's because they're using an intermediate
> consonant that doesn't occur in English.
>
> P.S. It's probably not all Americans.
> --
> Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
> Newcastle, NSW

On 2023-08-19 12:44:12 +0000, Bebercito said:

> Le samedi 19 août 2023 à 09:07:40 UTC+2, Peter Moylan a écrit :
>> On 19/08/23 16:36, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:> > On 2023-08-18
>> 23:39:51 +0000, Peter Moylan said:> >> >> On 19/08/23 00:55, Peter T.
>> Daniels wrote:> >>> >>> (And it's "tar-ZHAY.")> >>> >> You use
>> final-syllable stress even for fake French? That's weird.> >> > Not
>> really. Americans, even ones trained in linguistics, have an> >
>> unshakeable conviction that all French words have heavy stress on the>
>> > last syllable.
>> That's not entirely surprising. When you hear something that's
>> different> from what your native language does, there's a tendency to
>> hear stuff,> like stresses, that isn't there.
>
> There is indeed stress on the final syllable of words in French.

Yes, but I didn't say "stress"; I said "heavy stress". That there isn't
in French.

> Spanish is
> well-known to have stress (el "acento tónico") and if you compare e.g. French
> "ottomane" and Spanish "otomán" (where the acute accent is there to force
> the stress on -mán), you'll notice that French -mane is no less stressed than
> Spanish -mán:
>
> https://fr.forvo.com/search/ottomane/fr/
> https://fr.forvo.com/search/otom%C3%A1n/es/
>
>
>> We force foreign words into> pigeon-holes that fit our
>> preconceptions.>> English speakers often think that Japanese people say
>> 'r' when it should> be 'l', and vice versa. It's because they're using
>> an intermediate> consonant that doesn't occur in English.>> P.S. It's
>> probably not all Americans.
>> --
>> Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org> Newcastle, NSW

--
Athel -- French and British, living in Marseilles for 36 years; mainly
in England until 1987.

Le samedi 19 août 2023 à 15:35:15 UTC+2, Athel Cornish-Bowden a écrit :
> On 2023-08-19 12:44:12 +0000, Bebercito said:
>
> > Le samedi 19 août 2023 à 09:07:40 UTC+2, Peter Moylan a écrit :
> >> On 19/08/23 16:36, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:> > On 2023-08-18
> >> 23:39:51 +0000, Peter Moylan said:> >> >> On 19/08/23 00:55, Peter T.
> >> Daniels wrote:> >>> >>> (And it's "tar-ZHAY.")> >>> >> You use
> >> final-syllable stress even for fake French? That's weird.> >> > Not
> >> really. Americans, even ones trained in linguistics, have an> >
> >> unshakeable conviction that all French words have heavy stress on the>
> >> > last syllable.
> >> That's not entirely surprising. When you hear something that's
> >> different> from what your native language does, there's a tendency to
> >> hear stuff,> like stresses, that isn't there.
> >
> > There is indeed stress on the final syllable of words in French.
> Yes, but I didn't say "stress"; I said "heavy stress". That there isn't
> in French.

But how else could you account for that stress (even if not "heavy") in
English than by rendering it as "tar-ZHAY"?

>
> > Spanish is
> > well-known to have stress (el "acento tónico") and if you compare e.g. French
> > "ottomane" and Spanish "otomán" (where the acute accent is there to force
> > the stress on -mán), you'll notice that French -mane is no less stressed than
> > Spanish -mán:
> >
> > https://fr.forvo.com/search/ottomane/fr/
> > https://fr.forvo.com/search/otom%C3%A1n/es/
> >
> >
> >> We force foreign words into> pigeon-holes that fit our
> >> preconceptions.>> English speakers often think that Japanese people say
> >> 'r' when it should> be 'l', and vice versa. It's because they're using
> >> an intermediate> consonant that doesn't occur in English.>> P.S. It's
> >> probably not all Americans.
> >> --
> >> Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org> Newcastle, NSW
> --
> Athel -- French and British, living in Marseilles for 36 years; mainly
> in England until 1987.

On 19/08/2023 10:44, Hibou wrote:
> Le 19/08/2023 à 07:36, Athel Cornish-Bowden a écrit :
>> On 2023-08-18 23:39:51 +0000, Peter Moylan said:
>>> On 19/08/23 00:55, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>>>>
>>>> (And it's "tar-ZHAY.")
>>>
>>> You use final-syllable stress even for fake French? That's weird.
>>
>> Not really. Americans, even ones trained in linguistics, have an
>> unshakeable conviction that all French words have heavy stress on the
>> last syllable.
>
> IncroyABLE !
>
> (Or one can click on the little loudspeaker:
>
> <https://dictionnaire.lerobert.com/definition/incroyable>)
>

Oui! Incroyable et inacceptable!

https://dictionnaire.lerobert.com/definition/inacceptable

(don't think much of M. Le Robert's diction. It is almost unacceptable.)

On Saturday, August 19, 2023 at 7:55:38 AM UTC-6, Bebercito wrote:
> Le samedi 19 août 2023 à 15:35:15 UTC+2, Athel Cornish-Bowden a écrit :
> > On 2023-08-19 12:44:12 +0000, Bebercito said:
> >
> > > Le samedi 19 août 2023 à 09:07:40 UTC+2, Peter Moylan a écrit :
> > >> On 19/08/23 16:36, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:> > On 2023-08-18
> > >> 23:39:51 +0000, Peter Moylan said:> >> >> On 19/08/23 00:55, Peter T..
> > >> Daniels wrote:> >>> >>> (And it's "tar-ZHAY.")> >>> >> You use
> > >> final-syllable stress even for fake French? That's weird.> >> > Not
> > >> really. Americans, even ones trained in linguistics, have an> >
> > >> unshakeable conviction that all French words have heavy stress on the>
> > >> > last syllable.
> > >> That's not entirely surprising. When you hear something that's
> > >> different> from what your native language does, there's a tendency to
> > >> hear stuff,> like stresses, that isn't there.
> > >
> > > There is indeed stress on the final syllable of words in French.

> > Yes, but I didn't say "stress"; I said "heavy stress". That there isn't
> > in French.

> But how else could you account for that stress (even if not "heavy") in
> English than by rendering it as "tar-ZHAY"?

Not only that, it's a joke. When I've heard "tarZHAY", there's been no
attempt at a French pronunciation of the <r> or anything else.

--
Jerry Friedman

On Saturday, August 19, 2023 at 6:10:26 AM UTC-6, Bebercito wrote:
> Le vendredi 18 août 2023 à 16:56:00 UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels a écrit :
> > On Friday, August 18, 2023 at 2:06:29 AM UTC-4, occam wrote:
> > > In a BBC News report about the state of the economy in the US, the US
> > > correspondent corrected the anchor regarding the pronunciation of the US
> > > store chain 'Target'. 'Tar-jay' not 'tar-get'.
> > >
> > > A google search says:
> > >
> > > "Why is target pronounced Tarjay?
> > > Tarjay was pronounced with a faux French accent, suggesting that
> > > Target's fashions were chic but affordable."
> > >
> > >
> > > Is this pronunciation widely used, or is it a flight of fantasy on
> > > behalf of the Target marketing group?
> > It was a gay thing in Chicago in the 1970s, when they positioned themselves
> > as a step above K-Mart. (And it's "tar-ZHAY.") That was before Walmart was
> > even in the suburbs.
> >
> > Similarly, there was a chain of homey all-night restaurants around the city
> > called Golden Nugget (at some point they became independent and each
> > took a name that was similar). The one in the main gay neighborhood was
> > known as the noo-zhay d'or.

> noo-gay would have been more adequate.

Really? I thought "suggérer" had /gZ/. Anyway, again, it's a joke. I've never
heard anyone pronounce "nugget" that way, but PTD's transcription suggests
that even the people who could speak French weren't attempting a French
"u" there.

Also, I'd have said something like "closer" instead of "more adequate"
"Adequate" suggests that there's a criterion that something meets, but
there's no criterion for anglicized French that's anywhere near "noo-zhay"
or "noo-gay". "Careful writers" probably don't use "more adequate" at all,
as something is either adequate or not.

--
Jerry Friedman

On 19/08/2023 15:07, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> On Saturday, August 19, 2023 at 6:10:26 AM UTC-6, Bebercito wrote:
>> Le vendredi 18 août 2023 à 16:56:00 UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels a écrit
>> :
>>> Similarly, there was a chain of homey all-night restaurants
>>> around the city called Golden Nugget (at some point they became
>>> independent and each took a name that was similar). The one in
>>> the main gay neighborhood was known as the noo-zhay d'or.
>
>> noo-gay would have been more adequate.
>
> Really? I thought "suggérer" had /gZ/. Anyway, again, it's a joke.
>
So was Bebe's comment.

> I've never heard anyone pronounce "nugget" that way, but PTD's
> transcription suggests that even the people who could speak French
> weren't attempting a French "u" there.
>
> Also, I'd have said something like "closer" instead of "more
> adequate"

I think he meant apposite. It was in a gay community after all.

--
Ray
UK

On Friday, August 18, 2023 at 7:40:00 PM UTC-4, Peter Moylan wrote:
> On 19/08/23 00:55, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>
> > (And it's "tar-ZHAY.")
> You use final-syllable stress even for fake French? That's weird.

Prsumably most of the people who used the pronunciation never
studied French, but they know from Maurice Chevalier and Charles
Boyer movies what a French accent sounds like in English.

(I don't think I've heard Depardieu speak, and Louis Jourdain uses
a sort of mid-Atlantic accent in English, so he's no help.)

How many times do I have to repeat that

Just because stress is not phonemic in French -- so native speakers
don't notice it -- there is in fact stress at the end of every breath-group

?

(Just as aspiration of stops is not phonemic in English, but if you omit
it, everyone knows you're not a native speaker.)

("Breath-group" is the term R. A. Hall Jr. used in his *French: A Structural
Sketch* [1948] to avoid using "word," which is not useful in French, where
all the little enclitics and such are written between spaces but are not
independent of what they go with -- they're part of the "breath group.")

Incidentally, if you've worked very hard to not put any stress anywhere
in a French breath-group, you will be perceived as having a, perhaps
unidentifiable, foreign accent.

On Friday, August 18, 2023 at 8:59:48 PM UTC-4, Peter Moylan wrote:
> On 19/08/23 10:21, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> > On Friday, August 18, 2023 at 5:40:00 PM UTC-6, Peter Moylan wrote:
> >> On 19/08/23 00:55, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> >>> (And it's "tar-ZHAY.")
> >> You use final-syllable stress even for fake French? That's weird.
> > That's so people can tell it's French.
>
> And so French people can tell it isn't.

How are the Paris Target stores pronounced?