The phone has been ringing all day. Every time it has
been someone different. Once, it was a cold call. Another
time it was my cousin. The third time...

The phone rings again.
I say: 'Oh, my God! They won't leave me alone!'

Does that sentence work in that context?
I have no specific people in mind when I say 'they'.

=============================

A man knows that some hitmen have been hired to kill him.
He doesn't know who they are. He doesn't even know
who hired them. He hears a car driving up to his house
at two in the morning.

Can one say:
He knew they were coming to kill him.

Once again, 'they' doesn't refer to any specific people.

Do you find this usage of 'they' acceptable and natural?

Gratefully,
Navi

Le 20/07/2023 à 05:42, arthurvv vart a écrit :
>
> The phone has been ringing all day. Every time it has
> been someone different. Once, it was a cold call. Another
> time it was my cousin. The third time...
>
> The phone rings again.
> I say: 'Oh, my God! They won't leave me alone!'
>
> Does that sentence work in that context?
> I have no specific people in mind when I say 'they'.

I don't think that's true. You do have specific people in mind, viz
those who are ringing you up.

(The "Oh, my God!" is a phrase that causes one of those momentary frowns
that age a man's forehead so. It's true that "OMG!" is much worse.)

> =============================
>
> A man knows that some hitmen have been hired to kill him.
> He doesn't know who they are. He doesn't even know
> who hired them. He hears a car driving up to his house
> at two in the morning.
>
> Can one say:
> He knew they were coming to kill him.
>
> Once again, 'they' doesn't refer to any specific people.

Yes, it does. It refers to the hired hit-men, to the people in the car.

> Do you find this usage of 'they' acceptable and natural?
>
> Gratefully,
> Navi

On 20/07/23 15:07, Hibou wrote:
>
> (The "Oh, my God!" is a phrase that causes one of those momentary frowns
> that age a man's forehead so. It's true that "OMG!" is much worse.)

As a compromise, I've adopted OYG.

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW

On Thursday, July 20, 2023 at 12:42:12 AM UTC-4, arthurvv vart wrote:

> The phone has been ringing all day. Every time it has
> been someone different. Once, it was a cold call. Another
> time it was my cousin. The third time...
>
> The phone rings again.
> I say: 'Oh, my God! They won't leave me alone!'
>
> Does that sentence work in that context?
> I have no specific people in mind when I say 'they'.

Are you on bad terms with your cousin? Why would you find
their call a botheration?

> =============================
>
> A man knows that some hitmen have been hired to kill him.
> He doesn't know who they are. He doesn't even know
> who hired them. He hears a car driving up to his house
> at two in the morning.
>
> Can one say:
> He knew they were coming to kill him.
>
> Once again, 'they' doesn't refer to any specific people.
>
> Do you find this usage of 'they' acceptable and natural?

Yes.

On Thursday, July 20, 2023 at 1:33:04 AM UTC-4, Peter Moylan wrote:
> On 20/07/23 15:07, Hibou wrote:
> >
> > (The "Oh, my God!" is a phrase that causes one of those momentary frowns
> > that age a man's forehead so. It's true that "OMG!" is much worse.)

> As a compromise, I've adopted OYG.

Oy.

(Yiddish, not AUE, sense.)

On Wednesday, July 19, 2023 at 10:42:12 PM UTC-6, arthurvv vart wrote:
> The phone has been ringing all day. Every time it has
> been someone different. Once, it was a cold call. Another
> time it was my cousin. The third time...
>
> The phone rings again.
> I say: 'Oh, my God! They won't leave me alone!'
>
> Does that sentence work in that context?
> I have no specific people in mind when I say 'they'.
>
> =============================
>
> A man knows that some hitmen have been hired to kill him.
> He doesn't know who they are. He doesn't even know
> who hired them. He hears a car driving up to his house
> at two in the morning.
>
> Can one say:
> He knew they were coming to kill him.
>
> Once again, 'they' doesn't refer to any specific people.
>
> Do you find this usage of 'they' acceptable and natural?

Yes for both. There might be objections to 1) in formal writing, but
I can't imagine an objection to 2).

One I heard in New Mexico that did take me aback was

Me: How's it going?

Co-worker: Not good. They stole my ATV last night.

(He had no idea who had stolen his all-terrain vehicle or whether it
was more than one person.)

But he was Hispanic, and that's a hispanicism.

--
Jerry Friedman

On 21/07/23 10:18, Jerry Friedman wrote:

> One I heard in New Mexico that did take me aback was
>
> Me: How's it going?
>
> Co-worker: Not good. They stole my ATV last night.
>
> (He had no idea who had stolen his all-terrain vehicle or whether it
> was more than one person.)
>
> But he was Hispanic, and that's a hispanicism.

I believe I've heard that in AusE. It's not always clear whether the
speaker has a more-or-less specific "they" in mind.

Here's an example that sticks in my mind. When Australia introduced
stricter gun laws, there was a big demonstration by pro-gun people. One
demonstrator had a five-year-old child in his arms, and was carrying a
sign "They want to take my son's gun away".

Who was "they"? Possibly the government, but I think he really meant an
impersonal "they".

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW

On 2023-07-21 00:18:15 +0000, Jerry Friedman said:

> On Wednesday, July 19, 2023 at 10:42:12 PM UTC-6, arthurvv vart wrote:
>> The phone has been ringing all day. Every time it has> been someone
>> different. Once, it was a cold call. Another> time it was my cousin.
>> The third time...>> The phone rings again.> I say: 'Oh, my God! They
>> won't leave me alone!'>> Does that sentence work in that context?> I
>> have no specific people in mind when I say 'they'.>>
>> =============================>> A man knows that some hitmen have been
>> hired to kill him.> He doesn't know who they are. He doesn't even know>
>> who hired them. He hears a car driving up to his house> at two in the
>> morning.>> Can one say:> He knew they were coming to kill him.>> Once
>> again, 'they' doesn't refer to any specific people.>> Do you find this
>> usage of 'they' acceptable and natural?
> Yes for both. There might be objections to 1) in formal writing, but
> I can't imagine an objection to 2).
>
> One I heard in New Mexico that did take me aback was
>
> Me: How's it going?
>
> Co-worker: Not good. They stole my ATV last night.
>
> (He had no idea who had stolen his all-terrain vehicle or whether it
> was more than one person.)
>
> But he was Hispanic, and that's a hispanicism.

Maybe, but it's a perfectly good anglicism.

--
Athel -- French and British, living in Marseilles for 36 years; mainly
in England until 1987.

Le vendredi 21 juillet 2023 à 10:13:30 UTC+2, Athel Cornish-Bowden a écrit :
> On 2023-07-21 00:18:15 +0000, Jerry Friedman said:
>
> > On Wednesday, July 19, 2023 at 10:42:12 PM UTC-6, arthurvv vart wrote:
> >> The phone has been ringing all day. Every time it has> been someone
> >> different. Once, it was a cold call. Another> time it was my cousin.
> >> The third time...>> The phone rings again.> I say: 'Oh, my God! They
> >> won't leave me alone!'>> Does that sentence work in that context?> I
> >> have no specific people in mind when I say 'they'.>>
> >> =============================>> A man knows that some hitmen have been
> >> hired to kill him.> He doesn't know who they are. He doesn't even know>
> >> who hired them. He hears a car driving up to his house> at two in the
> >> morning.>> Can one say:> He knew they were coming to kill him.>> Once
> >> again, 'they' doesn't refer to any specific people.>> Do you find this
> >> usage of 'they' acceptable and natural?
> > Yes for both. There might be objections to 1) in formal writing, but
> > I can't imagine an objection to 2).
> >
> > One I heard in New Mexico that did take me aback was
> >
> > Me: How's it going?
> >
> > Co-worker: Not good. They stole my ATV last night.
> >
> > (He had no idea who had stolen his all-terrain vehicle or whether it
> > was more than one person.)
> >
> > But he was Hispanic, and that's a hispanicism.
> Maybe, but it's a perfectly good anglicism.

And "polyglotticism". (Too much icism kills the icism.)

>
>
> --
> Athel -- French and British, living in Marseilles for 36 years; mainly
> in England until 1987.

On Thursday, July 20, 2023 at 8:18:19 PM UTC-4, Jerry Friedman wrote:

> One I heard in New Mexico that did take me aback was
>
> Me: How's it going?
>
> Co-worker: Not good. They stole my ATV last night.
>
> (He had no idea who had stolen his all-terrain vehicle or whether it
> was more than one person.)
>
> But he was Hispanic, and that's a hispanicism.

Seems perfectly normal -- would you prefer "My TV got stolen" --
which might better reflect usage in a pro-drop language (to use
the Anglocentric term)?

But impersonal passives or inchoatives are frowned upon by parents.

The glass got broken. The glass broke.

Thank you all very much,

I use it the way the person in New Mexico uses it. But that's
because 'they' is used that way in my languages. I noticed that
and wondered if I was using it correctly.

"They stole my car yesterday" is a perfectly normal statement
in Persian and has no implication that the speaker knew who did
it or even whether more than one person was involved.

It seems that certain people (Athel and Peter Daniels) find it fine
and some others find it a bit iffy (Peter Moylan) and some people
find it incorrect (Jerry). Maybe the usage is regional.

Respectfully,
Navi

On Fri, 21 Jul 2023 14:32:52 -0700 (PDT), arthurvv vart
<arthurvarr@gmail.com> wrote:

>Thank you all very much,
>
>I use it the way the person in New Mexico uses it. But that's
>because 'they' is used that way in my languages. I noticed that
>and wondered if I was using it correctly.
>
>"They stole my car yesterday" is a perfectly normal statement
>in Persian and has no implication that the speaker knew who did
>it or even whether more than one person was involved.
>
>It seems that certain people (Athel and Peter Daniels) find it fine
>and some others find it a bit iffy (Peter Moylan) and some people
>find it incorrect (Jerry). Maybe the usage is regional.
>

Are you polling the delegation?

I see nothing strange about "They stole my car" in conversational
English. It's no different from "Someone stole my car". The stealer
of the car, or whether there were more than one person involved in the
stealing, is unknown to speaker.

--

Tony Cooper - Orlando,Florida

On Friday, July 21, 2023 at 3:27:35 PM UTC-7, TonyCooper wrote:
> On Fri, 21 Jul 2023 14:32:52 -0700 (PDT), arthurvv vart
> <arthu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >Thank you all very much,
> >
> >I use it the way the person in New Mexico uses it. But that's
> >because 'they' is used that way in my languages. I noticed that
> >and wondered if I was using it correctly.
> >
> >"They stole my car yesterday" is a perfectly normal statement
> >in Persian and has no implication that the speaker knew who did
> >it or even whether more than one person was involved.
> >
> >It seems that certain people (Athel and Peter Daniels) find it fine
> >and some others find it a bit iffy (Peter Moylan) and some people
> >find it incorrect (Jerry). Maybe the usage is regional.
> >
> Are you polling the delegation?
>
> I see nothing strange about "They stole my car" in conversational
> English. It's no different from "Someone stole my car". The stealer
> of the car, or whether there were more than one person involved in the
> stealing, is unknown to speaker.
>
> --
>
> Tony Cooper - Orlando,Florida

Thank you very much, Tony,

I am kind of polling this delegation. I hope that's not
a problem.

I don't find that usage in the dictionary. Maybe there has
been a change in the English language which hasn't been
reflected in the dictionaries yet.

I am wondering when this usage was introduced into English. But
I guess there's no way to find that out.

I am also wondering if it was an influence of other languages.

Respectfully,
Navi

On Fri, 21 Jul 2023 15:39:08 -0700 (PDT), arthurvv vart
<arthurvarr@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Friday, July 21, 2023 at 3:27:35?PM UTC-7, TonyCooper wrote:
>> On Fri, 21 Jul 2023 14:32:52 -0700 (PDT), arthurvv vart
>> <arthu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >Thank you all very much,
>> >
>> >I use it the way the person in New Mexico uses it. But that's
>> >because 'they' is used that way in my languages. I noticed that
>> >and wondered if I was using it correctly.
>> >
>> >"They stole my car yesterday" is a perfectly normal statement
>> >in Persian and has no implication that the speaker knew who did
>> >it or even whether more than one person was involved.
>> >
>> >It seems that certain people (Athel and Peter Daniels) find it fine
>> >and some others find it a bit iffy (Peter Moylan) and some people
>> >find it incorrect (Jerry). Maybe the usage is regional.
>> >
>> Are you polling the delegation?
>>
>> I see nothing strange about "They stole my car" in conversational
>> English. It's no different from "Someone stole my car". The stealer
>> of the car, or whether there were more than one person involved in the
>> stealing, is unknown to speaker.
>>
>> --
>>
>> Tony Cooper - Orlando,Florida
>
>Thank you very much, Tony,
>
>I am kind of polling this delegation. I hope that's not
>a problem.
>
>I don't find that usage in the dictionary. Maybe there has
>been a change in the English language which hasn't been
> reflected in the dictionaries yet.
>
>I am wondering when this usage was introduced into English. But
>I guess there's no way to find that out.
>
>I am also wondering if it was an influence of other languages.

I said that there's nothing strange about it in "conversational
English". Conversational English is a term that describes whole
sentences or incomplete sentences as they might be heard spoken. The
words used in conversational English are usually found in the
dictionary, but the dictionary will not show them in the order they
might be heard in conversational English.

Conversational English appears in print when someone quotes what was
said or when realistic dialog is written.

As for not finding it in a dictionary, you must not have looked.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/they

Meaning #2 used to refer to people in a general way or to a group of
people who are not specified

Is that not exactly the usage of "they" in "They stole my car
yesterday"?

https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/us/definition/english/they?q=they

has #3 "people in general".

You might argue that "people" is more than one person, but the speaker
of your sentence cannot assume the car was stolen by a thief acting
alone.

--

Tony Cooper - Orlando,Florida

On Friday, July 21, 2023 at 6:39:11 PM UTC-4, arthurvv vart wrote:
> On Friday, July 21, 2023 at 3:27:35 PM UTC-7, TonyCooper wrote:
> > On Fri, 21 Jul 2023 14:32:52 -0700 (PDT), arthurvv vart
> > <arthu...@gmail.com> wrote:

> > >Thank you all very much,
> > >I use it the way the person in New Mexico uses it. But that's
> > >because 'they' is used that way in my languages. I noticed that
> > >and wondered if I was using it correctly.
> > >"They stole my car yesterday" is a perfectly normal statement
> > >in Persian and has no implication that the speaker knew who did
> > >it or even whether more than one person was involved.
> > >It seems that certain people (Athel and Peter Daniels) find it fine
> > >and some others find it a bit iffy (Peter Moylan) and some people
> > >find it incorrect (Jerry). Maybe the usage is regional.
> > Are you polling the delegation?
> > I see nothing strange about "They stole my car" in conversational
> > English. It's no different from "Someone stole my car". The stealer
> > of the car, or whether there were more than one person involved in the
> > stealing, is unknown to speaker.
>
> Thank you very much, Tony,
>
> I am kind of polling this delegation. I hope that's not
> a problem.
>
> I don't find that usage in the dictionary. Maybe there has
> been a change in the English language which hasn't been
> reflected in the dictionaries yet.

Of course singular impersonal "they" is in dictionaries! It wouldn't
be in learners' dictionaries or even bilingual dictionaries because
it isn't "correct," but of course it's correct. Or, as someone here said
recently, "proper."

> I am wondering when this usage was introduced into English. But
> I guess there's no way to find that out.

Of course there is. Study the records of the language going back
nearly 1500 years.

> I am also wondering if it was an influence of other languages.

Why would that be?

On Saturday, July 22, 2023 at 6:56:05 AM UTC-7, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> On Friday, July 21, 2023 at 6:39:11 PM UTC-4, arthurvv vart wrote:
> > On Friday, July 21, 2023 at 3:27:35 PM UTC-7, TonyCooper wrote:
> > > On Fri, 21 Jul 2023 14:32:52 -0700 (PDT), arthurvv vart
> > > <arthu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > >Thank you all very much,
> > > >I use it the way the person in New Mexico uses it. But that's
> > > >because 'they' is used that way in my languages. I noticed that
> > > >and wondered if I was using it correctly.
> > > >"They stole my car yesterday" is a perfectly normal statement
> > > >in Persian and has no implication that the speaker knew who did
> > > >it or even whether more than one person was involved.
> > > >It seems that certain people (Athel and Peter Daniels) find it fine
> > > >and some others find it a bit iffy (Peter Moylan) and some people
> > > >find it incorrect (Jerry). Maybe the usage is regional.
> > > Are you polling the delegation?
> > > I see nothing strange about "They stole my car" in conversational
> > > English. It's no different from "Someone stole my car". The stealer
> > > of the car, or whether there were more than one person involved in the
> > > stealing, is unknown to speaker.
> >
> > Thank you very much, Tony,
> >
> > I am kind of polling this delegation. I hope that's not
> > a problem.
> >
> > I don't find that usage in the dictionary. Maybe there has
> > been a change in the English language which hasn't been
> > reflected in the dictionaries yet.
> Of course singular impersonal "they" is in dictionaries! It wouldn't
> be in learners' dictionaries or even bilingual dictionaries because
> it isn't "correct," but of course it's correct. Or, as someone here said
> recently, "proper."
> > I am wondering when this usage was introduced into English. But
> > I guess there's no way to find that out.
> Of course there is. Study the records of the language going back
> nearly 1500 years.
> > I am also wondering if it was an influence of other languages.
> Why would that be?

Thank you both very much,

I got it. I had seen 'people in general' in other dictionaries,
but they didn't have 'a group of unspecified people'.

I guess the case is closed.

Thanks again to everyone who contributed.

Respectfully,
Navi

Le samedi 22 juillet 2023 à 15:56:05 UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels a écrit :
> On Friday, July 21, 2023 at 6:39:11 PM UTC-4, arthurvv vart wrote:
> > On Friday, July 21, 2023 at 3:27:35 PM UTC-7, TonyCooper wrote:
> > > On Fri, 21 Jul 2023 14:32:52 -0700 (PDT), arthurvv vart
> > > <arthu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > >Thank you all very much,
> > > >I use it the way the person in New Mexico uses it. But that's
> > > >because 'they' is used that way in my languages. I noticed that
> > > >and wondered if I was using it correctly.
> > > >"They stole my car yesterday" is a perfectly normal statement
> > > >in Persian and has no implication that the speaker knew who did
> > > >it or even whether more than one person was involved.
> > > >It seems that certain people (Athel and Peter Daniels) find it fine
> > > >and some others find it a bit iffy (Peter Moylan) and some people
> > > >find it incorrect (Jerry). Maybe the usage is regional.
> > > Are you polling the delegation?
> > > I see nothing strange about "They stole my car" in conversational
> > > English. It's no different from "Someone stole my car". The stealer
> > > of the car, or whether there were more than one person involved in the
> > > stealing, is unknown to speaker.
> >
> > Thank you very much, Tony,
> >
> > I am kind of polling this delegation. I hope that's not
> > a problem.
> >
> > I don't find that usage in the dictionary. Maybe there has
> > been a change in the English language which hasn't been
> > reflected in the dictionaries yet.
> Of course singular impersonal "they" is in dictionaries!

But this is about *plural* impersonal "they".

> It wouldn't
> be in learners' dictionaries or even bilingual dictionaries because
> it isn't "correct," but of course it's correct. Or, as someone here said
> recently, "proper."
> > I am wondering when this usage was introduced into English. But
> > I guess there's no way to find that out.
> Of course there is. Study the records of the language going back
> nearly 1500 years.
> > I am also wondering if it was an influence of other languages.
> Why would that be?

On Thursday, July 20, 2023 at 12:42:12 AM UTC-4, arthurvv vart wrote:
> The phone has been ringing all day. Every time it has
> been someone different. Once, it was a cold call. Another
> time it was my cousin. The third time...
>
> The phone rings again.
> I say: 'Oh, my God! They won't leave me alone!'
>
> Does that sentence work in that context?
> I have no specific people in mind when I say 'they'.
>
> =============================
>
> A man knows that some hitmen have been hired to kill him.
> He doesn't know who they are. He doesn't even know
> who hired them. He hears a car driving up to his house
> at two in the morning.
>
> Can one say:
> He knew they were coming to kill him.
>
> Once again, 'they' doesn't refer to any specific people.
>
> Do you find this usage of 'they' acceptable and natural?
>
> Gratefully,
> Navi

I'm sorry, I am the wrong guy to ask when it comes to grammar
questions. I know there is an answer though. Maybe if you ask
politely "they" will tell you what it is.

"Well, you know what they say..........."

Thomas Joseph <jazeev1234@gmail.com> writes: Maybe if you ask
>politely "they" will tell you what it is.

This meaning of "they" appears in most dictionaries. E.g.,

|they
....
|a particular group or organization, or the people involved in it:
|"Where are they going to build the new highway?"

.

On Friday, July 21, 2023 at 5:51:00 PM UTC-6, TonyCooper wrote:
> On Fri, 21 Jul 2023 15:39:08 -0700 (PDT), arthurvv vart
> <arthu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >On Friday, July 21, 2023 at 3:27:35?PM UTC-7, TonyCooper wrote:
> >> On Fri, 21 Jul 2023 14:32:52 -0700 (PDT), arthurvv vart
> >> <arthu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> >Thank you all very much,
> >> >
> >> >I use it the way the person in New Mexico uses it. But that's
> >> >because 'they' is used that way in my languages. I noticed that
> >> >and wondered if I was using it correctly.
> >> >
> >> >"They stole my car yesterday" is a perfectly normal statement
> >> >in Persian and has no implication that the speaker knew who did
> >> >it or even whether more than one person was involved.
> >> >
> >> >It seems that certain people (Athel and Peter Daniels) find it fine
> >> >and some others find it a bit iffy (Peter Moylan) and some people
> >> >find it incorrect (Jerry). Maybe the usage is regional.
> >> >
> >> Are you polling the delegation?
> >>
> >> I see nothing strange about "They stole my car" in conversational
> >> English. It's no different from "Someone stole my car". The stealer
> >> of the car, or whether there were more than one person involved in the
> >> stealing, is unknown to speaker.
> >>
> >> --
> >>
> >> Tony Cooper - Orlando,Florida
> >
> >Thank you very much, Tony,
> >
> >I am kind of polling this delegation. I hope that's not
> >a problem.
> >
> >I don't find that usage in the dictionary. Maybe there has
> >been a change in the English language which hasn't been
> > reflected in the dictionaries yet.
> >
> >I am wondering when this usage was introduced into English. But
> >I guess there's no way to find that out.
> >
> >I am also wondering if it was an influence of other languages.
> I said that there's nothing strange about it in "conversational
> English". Conversational English is a term that describes whole
> sentences or incomplete sentences as they might be heard spoken. The
> words used in conversational English are usually found in the
> dictionary, but the dictionary will not show them in the order they
> might be heard in conversational English.
>
> Conversational English appears in print when someone quotes what was
> said or when realistic dialog is written.
>
> As for not finding it in a dictionary, you must not have looked.
>
> https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/they
>
> Meaning #2 used to refer to people in a general way or to a group of
> people who are not specified
>
> Is that not exactly the usage of "they" in "They stole my car
> yesterday"?

It is not. The examples are

"You know what they say.

People can do what they want.

They say the trial could go on for weeks.

He's as lazy as they come."

Those are about people in general, not a particular thief or small group
of thieves.

> https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/us/definition/english/they?q=they
>
> has #3 "people in general".

Again it's a different meaning. The example is "The rest, as they say, is history."

> You might argue that "people" is more than one person, but the speaker
> of your sentence cannot assume the car was stolen by a thief acting
> alone.

Or that it was stolen by a group of people.

I'll take your and other people's word that you've heard it before, but it was
so strange to me that I misunderstood it--I thought it was an unusual way of
saying that he knew who the thieves were.

--
Jerry Friedman

On 23/07/23 21:22, Stefan Ram wrote:
> Thomas Joseph <jazeev1234@gmail.com> writes: Maybe if you ask
>> politely "they" will tell you what it is.
>
> This meaning of "they" appears in most dictionaries. E.g.,
>
> |they ... |a particular group or organization, or the people involved
> in it: |"Where are they going to build the new highway?"

In some situations we instead use the word "aorta". For example, "Aorta
do somethin about it."

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW

Le dimanche 23 juillet 2023 à 14:50:56 UTC+2, Peter Moylan a écrit :
> On 23/07/23 21:22, Stefan Ram wrote:
> > Thomas Joseph <jazee...@gmail.com> writes: Maybe if you ask
> >> politely "they" will tell you what it is.
> >
> > This meaning of "they" appears in most dictionaries. E.g.,
> >
> > |they ... |a particular group or organization, or the people involved
> > in it: |"Where are they going to build the new highway?"
>
> In some situations we instead use the word "aorta". For example, "Aorta
> do somethin about it."

Not quite in the same vein, though.

> --
> Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
> Newcastle, NSW

On Saturday, July 22, 2023 at 8:28:31 PM UTC-4, Bebercito wrote:
> Le samedi 22 juillet 2023 à 15:56:05 UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels a écrit :
> > On Friday, July 21, 2023 at 6:39:11 PM UTC-4, arthurvv vart wrote:
> > > On Friday, July 21, 2023 at 3:27:35 PM UTC-7, TonyCooper wrote:
> > > > On Fri, 21 Jul 2023 14:32:52 -0700 (PDT), arthurvv vart
> > > > <arthu...@gmail.com> wrote:

> > > > >Thank you all very much,
> > > > >I use it the way the person in New Mexico uses it. But that's
> > > > >because 'they' is used that way in my languages. I noticed that
> > > > >and wondered if I was using it correctly.
> > > > >"They stole my car yesterday" is a perfectly normal statement
> > > > >in Persian and has no implication that the speaker knew who did
> > > > >it or even whether more than one person was involved.
> > > > >It seems that certain people (Athel and Peter Daniels) find it fine
> > > > >and some others find it a bit iffy (Peter Moylan) and some people
> > > > >find it incorrect (Jerry). Maybe the usage is regional.
> > > > Are you polling the delegation?
> > > > I see nothing strange about "They stole my car" in conversational
> > > > English. It's no different from "Someone stole my car". The stealer
> > > > of the car, or whether there were more than one person involved in the
> > > > stealing, is unknown to speaker.
> > > Thank you very much, Tony,
> > > I am kind of polling this delegation. I hope that's not
> > > a problem.
> > > I don't find that usage in the dictionary. Maybe there has
> > > been a change in the English language which hasn't been
> > > reflected in the dictionaries yet.
> > Of course singular impersonal "they" is in dictionaries!

> But this is about *plural* impersonal "they".

You mean, "they"?

Why would it merit any mention at all in a dictionary?

The original condition is that he didn't know whether one or
several assassins were chasing him.

On Sun, 23 Jul 2023 09:11:55 -0400, TonyCooper
<tonycooper214@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Sun, 23 Jul 2023 05:44:14 -0700 (PDT), Jerry Friedman
><jerry.friedman99@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>On Friday, July 21, 2023 at 5:51:00?PM UTC-6, TonyCooper wrote:
>>> On Fri, 21 Jul 2023 15:39:08 -0700 (PDT), arthurvv vart
>>> <arthu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> >On Friday, July 21, 2023 at 3:27:35?PM UTC-7, TonyCooper wrote:
>>> >> On Fri, 21 Jul 2023 14:32:52 -0700 (PDT), arthurvv vart
>>> >> <arthu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >> >Thank you all very much,
>>> >> >
>>> >> >I use it the way the person in New Mexico uses it. But that's
>>> >> >because 'they' is used that way in my languages. I noticed that
>>> >> >and wondered if I was using it correctly.
>>> >> >
>>> >> >"They stole my car yesterday" is a perfectly normal statement
>>> >> >in Persian and has no implication that the speaker knew who did
>>> >> >it or even whether more than one person was involved.
>>> >> >
>>> >> >It seems that certain people (Athel and Peter Daniels) find it fine
>>> >> >and some others find it a bit iffy (Peter Moylan) and some people
>>> >> >find it incorrect (Jerry). Maybe the usage is regional.
>>> >> >
>>> >> Are you polling the delegation?
>>> >>
>>> >> I see nothing strange about "They stole my car" in conversational
>>> >> English. It's no different from "Someone stole my car". The stealer
>>> >> of the car, or whether there were more than one person involved in the
>>> >> stealing, is unknown to speaker.
>>> >>
>>> >> --
>>> >>
>>> >> Tony Cooper - Orlando,Florida
>>> >
>>> >Thank you very much, Tony,
>>> >
>>> >I am kind of polling this delegation. I hope that's not
>>> >a problem.
>>> >
>>> >I don't find that usage in the dictionary. Maybe there has
>>> >been a change in the English language which hasn't been
>>> > reflected in the dictionaries yet.
>>> >
>>> >I am wondering when this usage was introduced into English. But
>>> >I guess there's no way to find that out.
>>> >
>>> >I am also wondering if it was an influence of other languages.
>>> I said that there's nothing strange about it in "conversational
>>> English". Conversational English is a term that describes whole
>>> sentences or incomplete sentences as they might be heard spoken. The
>>> words used in conversational English are usually found in the
>>> dictionary, but the dictionary will not show them in the order they
>>> might be heard in conversational English.
>>>
>>> Conversational English appears in print when someone quotes what was
>>> said or when realistic dialog is written.
>>>
>>> As for not finding it in a dictionary, you must not have looked.
>>>
>>> https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/they
>>>
>>> Meaning #2 used to refer to people in a general way or to a group of
>>> people who are not specified
>>>
>>> Is that not exactly the usage of "they" in "They stole my car
>>> yesterday"?
>>
>>It is not. The examples are
>>
>>"You know what they say.
>>
>>People can do what they want.
>>
>>They say the trial could go on for weeks.
>>
>>He's as lazy as they come."
>>
>>Those are about people in general, not a particular thief or small group
>>of thieves.
>>
>>> https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/us/definition/english/they?q=they
>>>
>>> has #3 "people in general".
>>
>>Again it's a different meaning. The example is "The rest, as they say, is history."
>>
>>> You might argue that "people" is more than one person, but the speaker
>>> of your sentence cannot assume the car was stolen by a thief acting
>>> alone.
>>
>>Or that it was stolen by a group of people.
>>
>>I'll take your and other people's word that you've heard it before, but it was
>>so strange to me that I misunderstood it--I thought it was an unusual way of
>>saying that he knew who the thieves were.
>
I think that you and I have a different view of "conversational
English". "Conversational English" is what we actually hear spoken.
It's improvisational and often riddled with grammatical and structural
errors. The words that come to mind and are used in conversational
English are not always the right fit, but can still convey the
speaker's meaning.

When viewing text that represents conversational English, it can be
misleading to conclude that some meaning was intended based on a
particular word that was not used as you would use it.

To me, the sentence "They stole my car" (absent any other context)
means only that the speaker's car was stolen. I would not assume that
the speaker knew or suspected who perpetuated the theft or how many
people were party to the theft.

With your heightened awareness of usage, I would expect you to say "My
car was stolen" to avoid any ambiguity, but I don't think you are
representative of all speakers.

--

Tony Cooper - Orlando,Florida

Le dimanche 23 juillet 2023 à 15:53:45 UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels a écrit :
> On Saturday, July 22, 2023 at 8:28:31 PM UTC-4, Bebercito wrote:
> > Le samedi 22 juillet 2023 à 15:56:05 UTC+2, Peter T. Daniels a écrit :
> > > On Friday, July 21, 2023 at 6:39:11 PM UTC-4, arthurvv vart wrote:
> > > > On Friday, July 21, 2023 at 3:27:35 PM UTC-7, TonyCooper wrote:
> > > > > On Fri, 21 Jul 2023 14:32:52 -0700 (PDT), arthurvv vart
> > > > > <arthu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > >Thank you all very much,
> > > > > >I use it the way the person in New Mexico uses it. But that's
> > > > > >because 'they' is used that way in my languages. I noticed that
> > > > > >and wondered if I was using it correctly.
> > > > > >"They stole my car yesterday" is a perfectly normal statement
> > > > > >in Persian and has no implication that the speaker knew who did
> > > > > >it or even whether more than one person was involved.
> > > > > >It seems that certain people (Athel and Peter Daniels) find it fine
> > > > > >and some others find it a bit iffy (Peter Moylan) and some people
> > > > > >find it incorrect (Jerry). Maybe the usage is regional.
> > > > > Are you polling the delegation?
> > > > > I see nothing strange about "They stole my car" in conversational
> > > > > English. It's no different from "Someone stole my car". The stealer
> > > > > of the car, or whether there were more than one person involved in the
> > > > > stealing, is unknown to speaker.
> > > > Thank you very much, Tony,
> > > > I am kind of polling this delegation. I hope that's not
> > > > a problem.
> > > > I don't find that usage in the dictionary. Maybe there has
> > > > been a change in the English language which hasn't been
> > > > reflected in the dictionaries yet.
> > > Of course singular impersonal "they" is in dictionaries!
>
> > But this is about *plural* impersonal "they".
> You mean, "they"?
>
> Why would it merit any mention at all in a dictionary?
>
> The original condition is that he didn't know whether one or
> several assassins were chasing him.

He didn't know of a particular usage of plural they, as he confirmed
further in the thread:

---
I got it. I had seen 'people in general' in other dictionaries,
but they didn't have 'a group of unspecified people'.
---

Besides, "singular impersonal they" essentially refers to the gender-neutral
"they", AIUI, which is not relevant here.