[cerulean] "Afterward, a squadron of Royal Air Force jets streaked across
the cerulean skies above Edinburgh's royal mile."
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/07/05/world/europe/king-charles-scotland-coronation.html

Wouldn't you think that's a classic example of an unnecessary redundancy?
[sic] https://www.writerswrite.co.za/19-examples-of-redundancy/

Of the five known types of redundancies, it seems to be a classic pleonasm.
1. The Redundant Pleonasm
2. The Redundant Abbreviation
3. The Redundant Intensifier
4. The Redundant Plague Word
5. The Redundant Cliche or Platitude
https://blog.abaenglish.com/advanced-grammar-5-types-of-redundancies-to-avoid/

Definition
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/cerulean
resembling the blue of the sky

Etymology
Cerulean comes from Latin caeruleus, which means "dark blue" and is most
likely from caelum, "sky."

On 2023-07-06 12:53, Fake Blake spouted:
> [cerulean] "Afterward, a squadron of Royal Air Force jets streaked across
> the cerulean skies above Edinburgh's royal mile."
> https://www.nytimes.com/2023/07/05/world/europe/king-charles-scotland-coronation.html
>
> Wouldn't you think that's a classic example of an unnecessary redundancy?
> [sic] https://www.writerswrite.co.za/19-examples-of-redundancy/
>
> Of the five known types of redundancies, it seems to be a classic pleonasm.
> 1. The Redundant Pleonasm
> 2. The Redundant Abbreviation
> 3. The Redundant Intensifier
> 4. The Redundant Plague Word
> 5. The Redundant Cliche or Platitude
> https://blog.abaenglish.com/advanced-grammar-5-types-of-redundancies-to-avoid/
>
> Definition
> https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/cerulean
> resembling the blue of the sky
>
> Etymology
> Cerulean comes from Latin caeruleus, which means "dark blue" and is most
> likely from caelum, "sky."

Not a pleonasm. The sky can be many colours.

--
I before E... except when you run a feisty heist on a weird foreign
neighbour.

El Thu, 06 Jul 2023 13:23:39 -0600, lar3ryca escribió:

> On 2023-07-06 12:53, Fake Blake spouted:
>> [cerulean] "Afterward, a squadron of Royal Air Force jets streaked
>> across the cerulean skies above Edinburgh's royal mile."
>> https://www.nytimes.com/2023/07/05/world/europe/king-charles-scotland-
coronation.html
>>
>> Wouldn't you think that's a classic example of an unnecessary
>> redundancy?
>> [sic] https://www.writerswrite.co.za/19-examples-of-redundancy/
>>
>> Of the five known types of redundancies, it seems to be a classic
>> pleonasm.
>> 1. The Redundant Pleonasm 2. The Redundant Abbreviation 3. The
>> Redundant Intensifier 4. The Redundant Plague Word 5. The Redundant
>> Cliche or Platitude
>> https://blog.abaenglish.com/advanced-grammar-5-types-of-redundancies-
to-avoid/
>>
>> Definition https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/cerulean
>> resembling the blue of the sky
>>
>> Etymology Cerulean comes from Latin caeruleus, which means "dark blue"
>> and is most likely from caelum, "sky."
>
> Not a pleonasm. The sky can be many colours.

Currently cyan here.

--
Paul.

https://paulc.es

On 7 Jul 2023 14:13:07 GMT, Paul Carmichael wrote:

>>> Etymology Cerulean comes from Latin caeruleus, which means "dark blue"
>>> and is most likely from caelum, "sky."
>>
>> Not a pleonasm. The sky can be many colours.
>
> Currently cyan here.

Obviously what I was leaning toward was 'sky-colored sky' being a possible
pleonasm, but I accept that others don't see it the way I initially did.

I understand both your astute points is that cerulean, today, means a
specific blue color (as does cyan indicate a color) and I'm sure you both
understood that cerulean's etymology is literally from the word "sky",
which is the redundant part I was wondering about.

Seems like the word cerulean is currently far removed from its genesis of
sky so saying "sky-colored sky" in effect, is not to be considered a
pleonasm because cerulean no longer means "sky colored", but is now just
another blue color in its own sense.

I accept your verdict.

On 2023-07-07 17:46:44 +0000, Ken Blake said:

> On 7 Jul 2023 14:13:07 GMT, Paul Carmichael wrote:
>
>>>> Etymology Cerulean comes from Latin caeruleus, which means "dark blue"
>>>> and is most likely from caelum, "sky."
>>>
>>> Not a pleonasm. The sky can be many colours.
>>
>> Currently cyan here.
>
> Obviously what I was leaning toward was 'sky-colored sky' being a possible
> pleonasm, but I accept that others don't see it the way I initially did.
>
> I understand both your astute points is that cerulean, today, means a
> specific blue color (as does cyan indicate a color) and I'm sure you both
> understood that cerulean's etymology is literally from the word "sky",
> which is the redundant part I was wondering about.
>
> Seems like the word cerulean is currently far removed from its genesis of
> sky so saying "sky-colored sky" in effect, is not to be considered a
> pleonasm because cerulean no longer means "sky colored", but is now just
> another blue color in its own sense.
>
> I accept your verdict.

I'm reminded of a discussion that I initiated when I was a newbie in
this group (probably in about 2005), during which no one agreed with
me. I'm reminded every time when they talk about "un ciel de plomb" on
French television: they mean a blue sky, strong sun and few if any
clouds. The English expression "leaden skies", far from being
equivalent, seems to me to mean the opposite: unbroken grey sky, no
sun, and looking as if it might rain. If you lived in Lima you'd see
this every day for six months of each year, when it always looks as if
it might rain, but almost never does.

--
Athel -- French and British, living in Marseilles for 36 years; mainly
in England until 1987.

On 08/07/23 04:51, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>
> I'm reminded of a discussion that I initiated when I was a newbie in
> this group (probably in about 2005), during which no one agreed with
> me. I'm reminded every time when they talk about "un ciel de plomb"
> on French television: they mean a blue sky, strong sun and few if any
> clouds. The English expression "leaden skies", far from being
> equivalent, seems to me to mean the opposite: unbroken grey sky, no
> sun, and looking as if it might rain. If you lived in Lima you'd see
> this every day for six months of each year, when it always looks as
> if it might rain, but almost never does.

When I travel between Australia and Europe I see a major difference in
sky colour. Europe, or at least northern Europe, has very pale blue
skies. Australian skies are a much darker blue. I believe the difference
is due to different amounts of moisture in the upper atmosphere.

The Australian sky colour is sometimes called "steel blue". (Which is
inaccurate. The steel blue I see by googling is noticeably different
from what I can see through my window.) I never understood this, because
steel is not blue, but I've finally found the answer today. Apparently
steel is sometimes painted that colour to prevent rust.

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW

Le 06/07/2023 à 20:23, lar3ryca a écrit :
> On 2023-07-06 12:53, Fake Blake spouted:
>>
>> [cerulean] "Afterward, a squadron of Royal Air Force jets streaked across
>> the cerulean skies above Edinburgh's royal mile."
>> https://www.nytimes.com/2023/07/05/world/europe/king-charles-scotland-coronation.html [...]
>
> Not a pleonasm. The sky can be many colours.

In general, yes, though the palette in Edinburgh is restricted.

I think the problem with 'cerulean sky' is that, like 'Stygian
darkness', 'princely sum', etc., it's a stock phrase, a cliché.

Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:

> On 08/07/23 04:51, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> >
> > I'm reminded of a discussion that I initiated when I was a newbie in
> > this group (probably in about 2005), during which no one agreed with
> > me. I'm reminded every time when they talk about "un ciel de plomb"
> > on French television: they mean a blue sky, strong sun and few if any
> > clouds. The English expression "leaden skies", far from being
> > equivalent, seems to me to mean the opposite: unbroken grey sky, no
> > sun, and looking as if it might rain. If you lived in Lima you'd see
> > this every day for six months of each year, when it always looks as
> > if it might rain, but almost never does.
>
> When I travel between Australia and Europe I see a major difference in
> sky colour. Europe, or at least northern Europe, has very pale blue
> skies. Australian skies are a much darker blue. I believe the difference
> is due to different amounts of moisture in the upper atmosphere.

Yes, floating ice crystals usually, not droplets.
The sky becomes milky white when a warm front is approaching.
(and next it becomes cloudy and rainy)
European skies can be deep blue too,
when clean, clear, polar air flows in behind a depression.
Visibily may be well over 50 km under such circumstances.

> The Australian sky colour is sometimes called "steel blue". (Which is
> inaccurate. The steel blue I see by googling is noticeably different
> from what I can see through my window.) I never understood this, because
> steel is not blue, but I've finally found the answer today. Apparently
> steel is sometimes painted that colour to prevent rust.

No, steel can really be blue,
as a result of careful heat treatment
for hardening and tempering.
Blued steel has special applications, for example in guns,
and in those hardened little screws in clocks and watches.
It is a deep dark saturated blue.

I don't think Australian skies are that blue,
but it is a suitable exaggeration,

Jan

Le jeudi 6 juillet 2023 à 20:52:29 UTC+2, Ken Blake a écrit :
> [cerulean] "Afterward, a squadron of Royal Air Force jets streaked across
> the cerulean skies above Edinburgh's royal mile."
> https://www.nytimes.com/2023/07/05/world/europe/king-charles-scotland-coronation.html
>
> Wouldn't you think that's a classic example of an unnecessary redundancy?
> [sic] https://www.writerswrite.co.za/19-examples-of-redundancy/
>
> Of the five known types of redundancies, it seems to be a classic pleonasm.
> 1. The Redundant Pleonasm

A pleonastic redundancy, indeed.

> 2. The Redundant Abbreviation
> 3. The Redundant Intensifier
> 4. The Redundant Plague Word
> 5. The Redundant Cliche or Platitude
> https://blog.abaenglish.com/advanced-grammar-5-types-of-redundancies-to-avoid/
>
> Definition
> https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/cerulean
> resembling the blue of the sky
>
> Etymology
> Cerulean comes from Latin caeruleus, which means "dark blue" and is most
> likely from caelum, "sky."

So not a pleonasm, as not all skies are dark blue. OTOH, "azure skies" could
arguably be one, as "azure" refers both to the colour of a clear sky and the sky
itself (though the collocation doesn't seem uncommon).

Le vendredi 7 juillet 2023 à 19:46:12 UTC+2, Ken Blake a écrit :
> On 7 Jul 2023 14:13:07 GMT, Paul Carmichael wrote:
>
> >>> Etymology Cerulean comes from Latin caeruleus, which means "dark blue"
> >>> and is most likely from caelum, "sky."
> >>
> >> Not a pleonasm. The sky can be many colours.
> >
> > Currently cyan here.
> Obviously what I was leaning toward was 'sky-colored sky' being a possible
> pleonasm, but I accept that others don't see it the way I initially did.
>
> I understand both your astute points is that cerulean, today, means a
> specific blue color (as does cyan indicate a color) and I'm sure you both
> understood that cerulean's etymology is literally from the word "sky",
> which is the redundant part I was wondering about.

But that's only etymological fallacy here.

>
> Seems like the word cerulean is currently far removed from its genesis of
> sky so saying "sky-colored sky" in effect, is not to be considered a
> pleonasm because cerulean no longer means "sky colored", but is now just
> another blue color in its own sense.

Yes, hence the fallacy.

>
> I accept your verdict.

On Friday, July 7, 2023 at 10:59:05 PM UTC-4, Peter Moylan wrote:
> On 08/07/23 04:51, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> >
> > I'm reminded of a discussion that I initiated when I was a newbie in
> > this group (probably in about 2005), during which no one agreed with
> > me. I'm reminded every time when they talk about "un ciel de plomb"
> > on French television: they mean a blue sky, strong sun and few if any
> > clouds. The English expression "leaden skies", far from being
> > equivalent, seems to me to mean the opposite: unbroken grey sky, no
> > sun, and looking as if it might rain. If you lived in Lima you'd see
> > this every day for six months of each year, when it always looks as
> > if it might rain, but almost never does.
> When I travel between Australia and Europe I see a major difference in
> sky colour. Europe, or at least northern Europe, has very pale blue
> skies. Australian skies are a much darker blue. I believe the difference
> is due to different amounts of moisture in the upper atmosphere.
>
> The Australian sky colour is sometimes called "steel blue". (Which is
> inaccurate. The steel blue I see by googling is noticeably different
> from what I can see through my window.) I never understood this, because
> steel is not blue, but I've finally found the answer today. Apparently
> steel is sometimes painted that colour to prevent rust.

How about the difference in latitude as well, so the sunlight on average
has a different angle and you get different diffraction? I see that a good
1/3 of your continent (though not too many people) are actually within
the Tropics so (reportedly) have overhead sun for at least a small part
of the year.

On 18:46 7 Jul 2023, Ken Blake said:

> On 7 Jul 2023 14:13:07 GMT, Paul Carmichael wrote:
>
>>>> Etymology Cerulean comes from Latin caeruleus, which means "dark
>>>> blue" and is most likely from caelum, "sky."
>>>
>>> Not a pleonasm. The sky can be many colours.
>>
>> Currently cyan here.
>
> Obviously what I was leaning toward was 'sky-colored sky' being a
> possible pleonasm, but I accept that others don't see it the way I
> initially did.
>
> I understand both your astute points is that cerulean, today, means a
> specific blue color (as does cyan indicate a color) and I'm sure you
> both understood that cerulean's etymology is literally from the word
> "sky", which is the redundant part I was wondering about.
>
> Seems like the word cerulean is currently far removed from its
> genesis of sky so saying "sky-colored sky" in effect, is not to be
> considered a pleonasm because cerulean no longer means "sky colored",
> but is now just another blue color in its own sense.
>
> I accept your verdict.

Nevertheless the term "cerulian" is too obscure for a newspaper story.
As you have shown, the particular shade of blue it represents is even
more obscure.

The author is trying to be too smart. Maybe he graduated in fine art and
knows his colour palatte.

On Friday, July 7, 2023 at 10:59:05 PM UTC-4, Peter Moylan wrote:
> On 08/07/23 04:51, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> >
> > I'm reminded of a discussion that I initiated when I was a newbie in
> > this group (probably in about 2005), during which no one agreed with
> > me. I'm reminded every time when they talk about "un ciel de plomb"
> > on French television: they mean a blue sky, strong sun and few if any
> > clouds. The English expression "leaden skies", far from being
> > equivalent, seems to me to mean the opposite: unbroken grey sky, no
> > sun, and looking as if it might rain.

Here in the states, you hear the term "overcast" to describe grey skies like that.

> > If you lived in Lima you'd see
> > this every day for six months of each year, when it always looks as
> > if it might rain, but almost never does.
>
> When I travel between Australia and Europe I see a major difference in
> sky colour. Europe, or at least northern Europe, has very pale blue
> skies. Australian skies are a much darker blue. I believe the difference
> is due to different amounts of moisture in the upper atmosphere.

In Texas, the sky is a much lighter blue than all that.

Le samedi 8 juillet 2023 à 15:58:58 UTC+2, Pamela a écrit :
> On 18:46 7 Jul 2023, Ken Blake said:
>
> > On 7 Jul 2023 14:13:07 GMT, Paul Carmichael wrote:
> >
> >>>> Etymology Cerulean comes from Latin caeruleus, which means "dark
> >>>> blue" and is most likely from caelum, "sky."
> >>>
> >>> Not a pleonasm. The sky can be many colours.
> >>
> >> Currently cyan here.
> >
> > Obviously what I was leaning toward was 'sky-colored sky' being a
> > possible pleonasm, but I accept that others don't see it the way I
> > initially did.
> >
> > I understand both your astute points is that cerulean, today, means a
> > specific blue color (as does cyan indicate a color) and I'm sure you
> > both understood that cerulean's etymology is literally from the word
> > "sky", which is the redundant part I was wondering about.
> >
> > Seems like the word cerulean is currently far removed from its
> > genesis of sky so saying "sky-colored sky" in effect, is not to be
> > considered a pleonasm because cerulean no longer means "sky colored",
> > but is now just another blue color in its own sense.
> >
> > I accept your verdict.
> Nevertheless the term "cerulian" is too obscure for a newspaper story.
> As you have shown, the particular shade of blue it represents is even
> more obscure.
>
> The author is trying to be too smart. Maybe he graduated in fine art and
> knows his colour palatte.

Pink is the usual palate colour palette.

Peter T. Daniels <grammatim@verizon.net> wrote:

> On Friday, July 7, 2023 at 10:59:05?PM UTC-4, Peter Moylan wrote:
> > On 08/07/23 04:51, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> > >
> > > I'm reminded of a discussion that I initiated when I was a newbie in
> > > this group (probably in about 2005), during which no one agreed with
> > > me. I'm reminded every time when they talk about "un ciel de plomb"
> > > on French television: they mean a blue sky, strong sun and few if any
> > > clouds. The English expression "leaden skies", far from being
> > > equivalent, seems to me to mean the opposite: unbroken grey sky, no
> > > sun, and looking as if it might rain. If you lived in Lima you'd see
> > > this every day for six months of each year, when it always looks as
> > > if it might rain, but almost never does.
> > When I travel between Australia and Europe I see a major difference in
> > sky colour. Europe, or at least northern Europe, has very pale blue
> > skies. Australian skies are a much darker blue. I believe the difference
> > is due to different amounts of moisture in the upper atmosphere.
> >
> > The Australian sky colour is sometimes called "steel blue". (Which is
> > inaccurate. The steel blue I see by googling is noticeably different
> > from what I can see through my window.) I never understood this, because
> > steel is not blue, but I've finally found the answer today. Apparently
> > steel is sometimes painted that colour to prevent rust.
>
> How about the difference in latitude as well, so the sunlight on average
> has a different angle and you get different diffraction? I see that a good
> 1/3 of your continent (though not too many people) are actually within
> the Tropics so (reportedly) have overhead sun for at least a small part
> of the year.

For bluffing your way into physics the next time:
this is called scattering, not diffraction,

Jan

On Monday, July 10, 2023 at 3:36:17 PM UTC-4, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> Peter T. Daniels <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
> > On Friday, July 7, 2023 at 10:59:05?PM UTC-4, Peter Moylan wrote:
> > > On 08/07/23 04:51, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:

> > > > I'm reminded of a discussion that I initiated when I was a newbie in
> > > > this group (probably in about 2005), during which no one agreed with
> > > > me. I'm reminded every time when they talk about "un ciel de plomb"
> > > > on French television: they mean a blue sky, strong sun and few if any
> > > > clouds. The English expression "leaden skies", far from being
> > > > equivalent, seems to me to mean the opposite: unbroken grey sky, no
> > > > sun, and looking as if it might rain. If you lived in Lima you'd see
> > > > this every day for six months of each year, when it always looks as
> > > > if it might rain, but almost never does.
> > > When I travel between Australia and Europe I see a major difference in
> > > sky colour. Europe, or at least northern Europe, has very pale blue
> > > skies. Australian skies are a much darker blue. I believe the difference
> > > is due to different amounts of moisture in the upper atmosphere.
> > > The Australian sky colour is sometimes called "steel blue". (Which is
> > > inaccurate. The steel blue I see by googling is noticeably different
> > > from what I can see through my window.) I never understood this, because
> > > steel is not blue, but I've finally found the answer today. Apparently
> > > steel is sometimes painted that colour to prevent rust.
> > How about the difference in latitude as well, so the sunlight on average
> > has a different angle and you get different diffraction? I see that a good
> > 1/3 of your continent (though not too many people) are actually within
> > the Tropics so (reportedly) have overhead sun for at least a small part
> > of the year.
>
> For bluffing your way into physics the next time:
> this is called scattering, not diffraction,

I don't see an answer to the question, smart-ass.

On 11/07/23 05:56, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> On Monday, July 10, 2023 at 3:36:17 PM UTC-4, J. J. Lodder wrote:
>> Peter T. Daniels <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
>>> On Friday, July 7, 2023 at 10:59:05?PM UTC-4, Peter Moylan
>>> wrote:

>>>> When I travel between Australia and Europe I see a major
>>>> difference in sky colour. Europe, or at least northern Europe,
>>>> has very pale blue skies. Australian skies are a much darker
>>>> blue. I believe the difference is due to different amounts of
>>>> moisture in the upper atmosphere. The Australian sky colour is
>>>> sometimes called "steel blue". (Which is inaccurate. The steel
>>>> blue I see by googling is noticeably different from what I can
>>>> see through my window.) I never understood this, because steel
>>>> is not blue, but I've finally found the answer today.
>>>> Apparently steel is sometimes painted that colour to prevent
>>>> rust.

>>> How about the difference in latitude as well, so the sunlight on
>>> average has a different angle and you get different diffraction?
>>> I see that a good 1/3 of your continent (though not too many
>>> people) are actually within the Tropics so (reportedly) have
>>> overhead sun for at least a small part of the year.

>> For bluffing your way into physics the next time: this is called
>> scattering, not diffraction,

For even more effective bluffing, do some googling on the slightly
complicated topic of Rayleigh scattering. The details depend on the
mixture of gases in the air. That means, for example, that Mars doesn't
have a blue sky.

> I don't see an answer to the question, smart-ass.

Jan gave an answer further upthread. The pale blue sky of far northern
latitudes is caused by ice particles in the air. Those are less common
in the tropics.

Having the sun directly overhead would actually tend to let more
non-blue colours come through, giving a whiter light. But factors like
that are overwhelmed by the effect of non-gaseous matter suspended in
the atmosphere: dust, ice, etc.

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW

On Saturday, July 8, 2023 at 12:21:45 AM UTC+5:30, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> On 2023-07-07 17:46:44 +0000, Ken Blake said:
>
> > On 7 Jul 2023 14:13:07 GMT, Paul Carmichael wrote:
> >
> >>>> Etymology Cerulean comes from Latin caeruleus, which means "dark blue"
> >>>> and is most likely from caelum, "sky."
> >>>
> >>> Not a pleonasm. The sky can be many colours.
> >>
> >> Currently cyan here.
> >
> > Obviously what I was leaning toward was 'sky-colored sky' being a possible
> > pleonasm, but I accept that others don't see it the way I initially did..
> >
> > I understand both your astute points is that cerulean, today, means a
> > specific blue color (as does cyan indicate a color) and I'm sure you both
> > understood that cerulean's etymology is literally from the word "sky",
> > which is the redundant part I was wondering about.
> >
> > Seems like the word cerulean is currently far removed from its genesis of
> > sky so saying "sky-colored sky" in effect, is not to be considered a
> > pleonasm because cerulean no longer means "sky colored", but is now just
> > another blue color in its own sense.
> >
> > I accept your verdict.
> I'm reminded of a discussion that I initiated when I was a newbie in
> this group (probably in about 2005), during which no one agreed with
> me. I'm reminded every time when they talk about "un ciel de plomb" on
> French television: they mean a blue sky, strong sun and few if any
> clouds. The English expression "leaden skies", far from being
> equivalent, seems to me to mean the opposite: unbroken grey sky, no
> sun, and looking as if it might rain. If you lived in Lima you'd see
> this every day for six months of each year, when it always looks as if
> it might rain, but almost never does.
>
>
Colors tend to be described not as they are but as the eye discerns them.
This says the eye can't always discern the sky's color accurately:

The word twilight comes to us from the Old English twyelyghte, or half-light,
when the vivid colors of the day fade to a shadow palette of grays. Of course,
the colors don’t change, but our ability to discern them does.
<https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/civil-nautical-astronomical-twilight> 

Peter T. Daniels <grammatim@verizon.net> wrote:

> On Monday, July 10, 2023 at 3:36:17?PM UTC-4, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> > Peter T. Daniels <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
> > > On Friday, July 7, 2023 at 10:59:05?PM UTC-4, Peter Moylan wrote:
> > > > On 08/07/23 04:51, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>
> > > > > I'm reminded of a discussion that I initiated when I was a newbie in
> > > > > this group (probably in about 2005), during which no one agreed with
> > > > > me. I'm reminded every time when they talk about "un ciel de plomb"
> > > > > on French television: they mean a blue sky, strong sun and few if any
> > > > > clouds. The English expression "leaden skies", far from being
> > > > > equivalent, seems to me to mean the opposite: unbroken grey sky, no
> > > > > sun, and looking as if it might rain. If you lived in Lima you'd see
> > > > > this every day for six months of each year, when it always looks as
> > > > > if it might rain, but almost never does.
> > > > When I travel between Australia and Europe I see a major difference in
> > > > sky colour. Europe, or at least northern Europe, has very pale blue
> > > > skies. Australian skies are a much darker blue. I believe the difference
> > > > is due to different amounts of moisture in the upper atmosphere.
> > > > The Australian sky colour is sometimes called "steel blue". (Which is
> > > > inaccurate. The steel blue I see by googling is noticeably different
> > > > from what I can see through my window.) I never understood this, because
> > > > steel is not blue, but I've finally found the answer today. Apparently
> > > > steel is sometimes painted that colour to prevent rust.
> > > How about the difference in latitude as well, so the sunlight on average
> > > has a different angle and you get different diffraction? I see that a good
> > > 1/3 of your continent (though not too many people) are actually within
> > > the Tropics so (reportedly) have overhead sun for at least a small part
> > > of the year.
> >
> > For bluffing your way into physics the next time:
> > this is called scattering, not diffraction,
>
> I don't see an answer to the question, smart-ass.

Sorry, no spoon feeding,

Jan

Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:

> On 11/07/23 05:56, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > On Monday, July 10, 2023 at 3:36:17?PM UTC-4, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> >> Peter T. Daniels <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
> >>> On Friday, July 7, 2023 at 10:59:05?PM UTC-4, Peter Moylan
> >>> wrote:
>
> >>>> When I travel between Australia and Europe I see a major
> >>>> difference in sky colour. Europe, or at least northern Europe,
> >>>> has very pale blue skies. Australian skies are a much darker
> >>>> blue. I believe the difference is due to different amounts of
> >>>> moisture in the upper atmosphere. The Australian sky colour is
> >>>> sometimes called "steel blue". (Which is inaccurate. The steel
> >>>> blue I see by googling is noticeably different from what I can
> >>>> see through my window.) I never understood this, because steel
> >>>> is not blue, but I've finally found the answer today.
> >>>> Apparently steel is sometimes painted that colour to prevent
> >>>> rust.
>
> >>> How about the difference in latitude as well, so the sunlight on
> >>> average has a different angle and you get different diffraction?
> >>> I see that a good 1/3 of your continent (though not too many
> >>> people) are actually within the Tropics so (reportedly) have
> >>> overhead sun for at least a small part of the year.
>
> >> For bluffing your way into physics the next time: this is called
> >> scattering, not diffraction,
>
> For even more effective bluffing, do some googling on the slightly
> complicated topic of Rayleigh scattering. The details depend on the
> mixture of gases in the air. That means, for example, that Mars doesn't
> have a blue sky.

Indeed, it is subtle to get it right.
Rayleigh gave a correct order of magnitude estimate of Avogadro's number
from atmospheric extinction.
He based this on reports that the Everest is visible from the plains
even from hundreds of kilometers away.
(the air in India was -much- cleaner then)

Jan

On Tuesday, July 11, 2023 at 7:07:28 AM UTC-4, J. J. Lodder wrote:

> He based this on reports that the Everest is visible from the plains

"the Everest"??

Clean up your own act before smarting off about others.

We say "the Matterhorn," "the Jungfrau," and probably cetera,
but Denali (= Mt. McKinley), Mt. Shasta, (Mt.) Kilimanjaro, K2, etc.

On Sat, 8 Jul 2023, at 11:40:17, J. J. Lodder posted:
>Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
>
>> The Australian sky colour is sometimes called "steel blue". (Which is
>> inaccurate. The steel blue I see by googling is noticeably different
>> from what I can see through my window.) I never understood this, because
>> steel is not blue, but I've finally found the answer today. Apparently
>> steel is sometimes painted that colour to prevent rust.

There's no magic in blue paint.
>
>No, steel can really be blue,
>as a result of careful heat treatment
>for hardening and tempering.

It's really a different kind of oxide layer. You can see blue oxides
(presumably of chromium this time) if you look at the colour of chromed
exhaust pipes out of a motorcycle cylinder head. In another metal,
aluminium is given coloured protective oxide coatings by anodising.

>Blued steel has special applications, for example in guns,
>and in those hardened little screws in clocks and watches.

The blueing (bluing??) of guns is an example of non-medical industrial
homeopathy. Treat the steel with the right oxidising agent in order to
prevent further oxidation - specifically, rusting. The respective
surface oxides are different, with correspondingly different chemical
properties.
--
Paul W