TonyCooper hat am 27.04.2023 um 20:45 geschrieben:
> On Thu, 27 Apr 2023 18:29:09 +0200, Silvano
> <Silvano@noncisonopernessuno.it> wrote:
>
>> Snidely hat am 27.04.2023 um 16:32 geschrieben:
>>> on 4/27/2023, Silvano supposed :
>>>> lar3ryca hat am 25.04.2023 um 16:53 geschrieben:
>>>>> Sorry I did not clarify that I had no idea that I could have entered
>>>>> East Germany without passing through any border controls.
>>>>
>>>> For the last time, starting in West Berlin you could have entered East
>>>> Germany (including East Berlin) without passing through any WESTERN
>>>> border controls. It was practically impossible to enter or leave East
>>>> Germany without passing through EAST GERMAN border controls.
>>>>
>>>> Do you understand the difference between the words in capitals or are
>>>> you just trolling?
>>>
>>> He is reiterating that he has no personal experience of that border
>>> because he wasn't allowed anywhere near it.
>>
>>
>> It's a strange way to say that, especially with his "without passing
>> through _any_ border controls", but thanks for showing me a reasonable
>> interpretation.
>
> He led that with "I had no idea..." which clearly indicated that he
> was unaware of any border controls. You should take in the entire
> sentence, not just the part that you're emphasizing.
>
> Saying that one is unaware of border controls is not the same as
> saying there were no border controls.

Frankly, I fully understand it if someone who did not live in West
Berlin before reunification, as I did, was not aware that there were no
WESTERN border controls between West Berlin and East Berlin or East
Germany, but I can't believe that anyone had never heard of the Berlin
Wall and EAST German border controls. Well, perhaps a farmer in Vanuatu,
Belize or some other very far away places. That's why I wondered if he's
a troll.

Adam Funk hat am 27.04.2023 um 20:05 geschrieben:
> On 2023-04-27, Adam Funk wrote:
>
>> On 2023-04-23, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>>
>>> On Saturday, April 22, 2023 at 6:01:20 PM UTC-6, Garrett Wollman wrote:
>>>> In article <42f98831-1b8e-451c...@googlegroups.com>,
>>>> Jerry Friedman <jerry.fr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> If the presence of Allied occupation troops is considered part of the war,
>>>>> it lasted long after 1946. As far as I can tell from Wikipedia, the occupying
>>>>> troops in Germany were legally converted into friendly troops allowed to
>>>>> have military bases in May 1955 (West) and September 1955 (East).
>>>
>>>> Berlin, however, was legally under occupation until 1991, and not part
>>>> of either the BRD or the DDR. (In West Berlin, the western Allies
>>>> largely permitted the House of Representatives to adopt the laws of
>>>> the BRD unchanged, but the Allies still had and occasionally exercised
>>>> a veto until the Treaty on the Final Settlement was ratified.)
>>> ...
>>>
>>> I didn't know that. Wikipedia adds that residents of West Berlin couldn't
>>> get West German passports. What kind of passports did they get?
>>> Special West Berlin ones? Stateless?
>>
>> I knew some students from Berlin in 1989--90. Their passports just
>> said "DEUTSCHLAND" on the front. (I don't know what was on the
>> inside.)
>
> (Just to be clear, I meant that they were from West Berlin.)

Just to be clear, that was absolutely obvious. The idea of an East
German document with "Deutschland" on it is as mad as the idea of a US
document labelled "former UK colony".

Just as frankly, I can't believe that you ever saw passports which just
said "DEUTSCHLAND" on the front. As far as I know, there was never such
a thing.
_BUNDESREPUBLIK_ Deutschland - please note the word in capitals - yes,
of course. My wife and my children have one.

In article <29aacb52-1996-47f6-a58f-b4f961efcb3dn@googlegroups.com>,
Jerry Friedman <jerry.friedman99@gmail.com> wrote:

>However, I see all that as part of the postwar arrangement and the Cold War,
>not WW II. The war ended when the losing countries surrendered and
>hostilities stopped.

Forgot to mention: the World War II Army of Occupation medal is the
longest-issued service medal in the US Army, having been issued for 45
years. Any US soldier or airman who was stationed in Berlin from 1945
to 1990 was eligible.

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Army_of_Occupation_Medal>

-GAWollman

--
Garrett A. Wollman | "Act to avoid constraining the future; if you can,
wollman@bimajority.org| act to remove constraint from the future. This is
Opinions not shared by| a thing you can do, are able to do, to do together."
my employers. | - Graydon Saunders, _A Succession of Bad Days_ (2015)

On 2023-04-27 14:13, Silvano wrote:
> TonyCooper hat am 27.04.2023 um 20:45 geschrieben:
>> On Thu, 27 Apr 2023 18:29:09 +0200, Silvano
>> <Silvano@noncisonopernessuno.it> wrote:
>>
>>> Snidely hat am 27.04.2023 um 16:32 geschrieben:
>>>> on 4/27/2023, Silvano supposed :
>>>>> lar3ryca hat am 25.04.2023 um 16:53 geschrieben:
>>>>>> Sorry I did not clarify that I had no idea that I could have entered
>>>>>> East Germany without passing through any border controls.
>>>>>
>>>>> For the last time, starting in West Berlin you could have entered East
>>>>> Germany (including East Berlin) without passing through any WESTERN
>>>>> border controls. It was practically impossible to enter or leave East
>>>>> Germany without passing through EAST GERMAN border controls.
>>>>>
>>>>> Do you understand the difference between the words in capitals or are
>>>>> you just trolling?
>>>>
>>>> He is reiterating that he has no personal experience of that border
>>>> because he wasn't allowed anywhere near it.
>>>
>>>
>>> It's a strange way to say that, especially with his "without passing
>>> through _any_ border controls", but thanks for showing me a reasonable
>>> interpretation.
>>
>> He led that with "I had no idea..." which clearly indicated that he
>> was unaware of any border controls. You should take in the entire
>> sentence, not just the part that you're emphasizing.
>>
>> Saying that one is unaware of border controls is not the same as
>> saying there were no border controls.
>
>
> Frankly, I fully understand it if someone who did not live in West
> Berlin before reunification, as I did, was not aware that there were no
> WESTERN border controls between West Berlin and East Berlin or East
> Germany, but I can't believe that anyone had never heard of the Berlin
> Wall and EAST German border controls. Well, perhaps a farmer in Vanuatu,
> Belize or some other very far away places. That's why I wondered if he's
> a troll.

In fact, The only border I had any knowledge of was the one delineated
by the Berlin Wall, and that, only because it was often in the news.

--
All odd numbers contain the letter "e".

On 28/04/23 03:38, Adam Funk wrote:

> I knew some students from Berlin in 1989--90. Their passports just
> said "DEUTSCHLAND" on the front. (I don't know what was on the
> inside.)

Totally unrelated, but worth telling anyway. I once met a German who was
doing business in East Asia. There was a potential problem if you
entered China with a visa stamp saying that you'd been in Taiwan, and
vice versa. The German government understood this, and gave him two
passports. Later, when German passports were replaced with EU passports,
he got two more passports.

Once, when coming into Shanghai, he accidentally handed over the wrong
passport. Realising his error, he pulled out three more passports. Oops!

--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org

On 28/04/23 04:14, Sam Plusnet wrote:
> On 27-Apr-23 14:08, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>> On 2023-04-27 09:59:03 +0000, Silvano said:
>>
>>> Phil Carmody hat am 25.04.2023 um 21:15 geschrieben:
>>>> The Allied powers didn't declare peace with Finland until 10th February
>>>> 1947. I think this was basically because Finland had ceased all
>>>> offensives against the allied nations, broken its alliance with the
>>>> axis
>>>> powers, and basically declared war on Germany back in 1944, so I think
>>>> they simply got overlooked when it came to drawing up treaties.
>>>
>>>
>>> Perhaps it's just an urban legend, but I read somewhere that
>>> Liechtenstein is still officially at war with Prussia. According to that
>>> story, Liechtenstein sided with Austria in the Austro-Prussian War 1866,
>>> but was forgotten during the peace negotations and never signed the
>>> peace treaty.
>>
>> There is an urban legend about Berwick-upon-Tweed, which remained at
>> war with Russia, after the Crimea until the 1970s. However, that is
>> probably a myth.
>
> It seems so, but the back history suggests the underlying reason for the
> myth.
>
> https://www.berwickfriends.org.uk/history/berwicks-war-with-russia/

Why was it a special case? Did the town once straddle the border?

--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org

On 2023-04-28 00:42:19 +0000, Peter Moylan said:

> On 28/04/23 04:14, Sam Plusnet wrote:
>> On 27-Apr-23 14:08, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>>> On 2023-04-27 09:59:03 +0000, Silvano said:
>>>
>>>> Phil Carmody hat am 25.04.2023 um 21:15 geschrieben:
>>>>> The Allied powers didn't declare peace with Finland until 10th February
>>>>> 1947. I think this was basically because Finland had ceased all
>>>>> offensives against the allied nations, broken its alliance with the
>>>>> axis
>>>>> powers, and basically declared war on Germany back in 1944, so I think
>>>>> they simply got overlooked when it came to drawing up treaties.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Perhaps it's just an urban legend, but I read somewhere that
>>>> Liechtenstein is still officially at war with Prussia. According to that
>>>> story, Liechtenstein sided with Austria in the Austro-Prussian War 1866,
>>>> but was forgotten during the peace negotations and never signed the
>>>> peace treaty.
>>>
>>> There is an urban legend about Berwick-upon-Tweed, which remained at
>>> war with Russia, after the Crimea until the 1970s. However, that is
>>> probably a myth.
>>
>> It seems so, but the back history suggests the underlying reason for the
>> myth.
>>
>> https://www.berwickfriends.org.uk/history/berwicks-war-with-russia/
>
> Why was it a special case? Did the town once straddle the border?

It is very close to the border, and changed hands between England and
Scotland several times over history. Its status was sufficiently
unclear that it was thought best to mention it explicitly in the
declaration of war. I expect that the Russians were quaking in their
boots at the thought of hordes of soldiers from Berwick.

--
Athel -- French and British, living in Marseilles for 36 years; mainly
in England until 1987.

On 2023-04-28, Peter Moylan wrote:

> On 28/04/23 03:38, Adam Funk wrote:
>
>> I knew some students from Berlin in 1989--90. Their passports just
>> said "DEUTSCHLAND" on the front. (I don't know what was on the
>> inside.)
>
> Totally unrelated, but worth telling anyway. I once met a German who was
> doing business in East Asia. There was a potential problem if you
> entered China with a visa stamp saying that you'd been in Taiwan, and
> vice versa. The German government understood this, and gave him two
> passports. Later, when German passports were replaced with EU passports,
> he got two more passports.
>
> Once, when coming into Shanghai, he accidentally handed over the wrong
> passport. Realising his error, he pulled out three more passports. Oops!

I think the US & UK governments will issue spare passports to people
who need them for regular travel to countries that cause these
problems (I've heard of this for Israel vs several Arab countries).

--
Indentation is for enemy skulls, not code!
---Klingon Programmer's Guide

On 2023-04-27, Silvano wrote:

> Adam Funk hat am 27.04.2023 um 20:05 geschrieben:
>> On 2023-04-27, Adam Funk wrote:
>>
>>> On 2023-04-23, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Saturday, April 22, 2023 at 6:01:20 PM UTC-6, Garrett Wollman wrote:
>>>>> In article <42f98831-1b8e-451c...@googlegroups.com>,
>>>>> Jerry Friedman <jerry.fr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> If the presence of Allied occupation troops is considered part of the war,
>>>>>> it lasted long after 1946. As far as I can tell from Wikipedia, the occupying
>>>>>> troops in Germany were legally converted into friendly troops allowed to
>>>>>> have military bases in May 1955 (West) and September 1955 (East).
>>>>
>>>>> Berlin, however, was legally under occupation until 1991, and not part
>>>>> of either the BRD or the DDR. (In West Berlin, the western Allies
>>>>> largely permitted the House of Representatives to adopt the laws of
>>>>> the BRD unchanged, but the Allies still had and occasionally exercised
>>>>> a veto until the Treaty on the Final Settlement was ratified.)
>>>> ...
>>>>
>>>> I didn't know that. Wikipedia adds that residents of West Berlin couldn't
>>>> get West German passports. What kind of passports did they get?
>>>> Special West Berlin ones? Stateless?
>>>
>>> I knew some students from Berlin in 1989--90. Their passports just
>>> said "DEUTSCHLAND" on the front. (I don't know what was on the
>>> inside.)
>>
>> (Just to be clear, I meant that they were from West Berlin.)
>
> Just to be clear, that was absolutely obvious. The idea of an East
> German document with "Deutschland" on it is as mad as the idea of a US
> document labelled "former UK colony".
>
> Just as frankly, I can't believe that you ever saw passports which just
> said "DEUTSCHLAND" on the front. As far as I know, there was never such
> a thing.
> _BUNDESREPUBLIK_ Deutschland - please note the word in capitals - yes,
> of course. My wife and my children have one.

As someone else mentioned above, West Berlin wasn't legally part of
the BRD in 1990.

--
You're 100 percent correct -- it's been scientifically proven that
microwaving changes the molecular structure of food. THIS IS CALLED
COOKING, YOU NITWIT. ---Cecil Adams

On Thursday, April 27, 2023 at 8:34:23 PM UTC-4, Peter Moylan wrote:
> On 28/04/23 03:38, Adam Funk wrote:

> > I knew some students from Berlin in 1989--90. Their passports just
> > said "DEUTSCHLAND" on the front. (I don't know what was on the
> > inside.)
>
> Totally unrelated, but worth telling anyway. I once met a German who was
> doing business in East Asia. There was a potential problem if you
> entered China with a visa stamp saying that you'd been in Taiwan, and
> vice versa. The German government understood this, and gave him two
> passports. Later, when German passports were replaced with EU passports,
> he got two more passports.

Israel handled that by stamping your passport on a separate slip of
paper that you could remove so that you could visit an Arab country
(or, I suppose, Iran) later on. Odd that Taiwan didn't do it that way.

> Once, when coming into Shanghai, he accidentally handed over the wrong
> passport. Realising his error, he pulled out three more passports. Oops!

On Friday, April 28, 2023 at 2:36:29 AM UTC-4, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> On 2023-04-28 00:42:19 +0000, Peter Moylan said:
> > On 28/04/23 04:14, Sam Plusnet wrote:

> >> https://www.berwickfriends.org.uk/history/berwicks-war-with-russia/
> > Why was it a special case? Did the town once straddle the border?
>
> It is very close to the border, and changed hands between England and
> Scotland several times over history. Its status was sufficiently
> unclear that it was thought best to mention it explicitly in the
> declaration of war. I expect that the Russians were quaking in their
> boots at the thought of hordes of soldiers from Berwick.

Is that an underlying impetus for the Duchy of Grand Fenwick in
*The Mouse That Roared*?