Maybe I am overthinking this one, but I don't get it.

This is from Playboy's 1963 interview with Frank Sinatra:

"Remember, they were men of God who destroyed the educational
treasures at Alexandria, who perpetrated the Inquisition in Spain, who
burned the witches at Salem. Over 25,000 organized religions flourish
on this planet, but the followers of each think all the others are
miserably misguided and probably evil as well. In India they worship
white cows, monkeys and a dip in the Ganges. The Muslims accept
slavery and prepare for Allah, who promises wine and revirginated
women. And witch doctors aren’t just in Africa. If you look in the
L.A. papers of a Sunday morning, you’ll see the local variety
advertising their wares like suits with two pairs of pants..."

He is calling the L.A. merchants a local variety of "witch doctor"?

On Saturday, April 1, 2023 at 7:46:00 PM UTC-6, Mack A. Damia wrote:
> Maybe I am overthinking this one, but I don't get it.
>
> This is from Playboy's 1963 interview with Frank Sinatra:
>
> "Remember, they were men of God who destroyed the educational
> treasures at Alexandria, who perpetrated the Inquisition in Spain, who
> burned the witches at Salem. Over 25,000 organized religions flourish
> on this planet, but the followers of each think all the others are
> miserably misguided and probably evil as well. In India they worship
> white cows, monkeys and a dip in the Ganges. The Muslims accept
> slavery and prepare for Allah, who promises wine and revirginated
> women. And witch doctors aren’t just in Africa. If you look in the
> L.A. papers of a Sunday morning, you’ll see the local variety
> advertising their wares like suits with two pairs of pants..."

That's pretty eloquent an interview.

> He is calling the L.A. merchants a local variety of "witch doctor"?

I suspect he's talking about psychiatrists. Could they advertise back
then? Maybe Californian lay therapists. They're advertising their
services the way clothing stores advertise suits.

--
Jerry Friedman

* Jerry Friedman <4f862b6f-6a96-4a79-a88e-8cee9e2ecb97n @googlegroups.com> :
Wrote on Sat, 1 Apr 2023 18:54:04 -0700 (PDT):
> On Saturday, April 1, 2023 at 7:46:00 PM UTC-6, Mack A. Damia wrote:
>> Maybe I am overthinking this one, but I don't get it.
>>
>> This is from Playboy's 1963 interview with Frank Sinatra:
>>
>> "Remember, they were men of God who destroyed the educational
>> treasures at Alexandria, who perpetrated the Inquisition in Spain, who
>> burned the witches at Salem. Over 25,000 organized religions flourish
>> on this planet, but the followers of each think all the others are
>> miserably misguided and probably evil as well. In India they worship
>> white cows, monkeys and a dip in the Ganges. The Muslims accept
>> slavery and prepare for Allah, who promises wine and revirginated
>> women. And witch doctors aren’t just in Africa. If you look in the
>> L.A. papers of a Sunday morning, you’ll see the local variety
>> advertising their wares like suits with two pairs of pants..."
>
> That's pretty eloquent an interview.

What a bunch of standard influencer lib lies. It was a good thing he
went into a "proper" retirement.

>> He is calling the L.A. merchants a local variety of "witch doctor"?
>
> I suspect he's talking about psychiatrists. Could they advertise back
> then? Maybe Californian lay therapists. They're advertising their
> services the way clothing stores advertise suits.

Werent astrologers and hindu gurus advertising at that time?

On Saturday, April 1, 2023 at 6:46:00 PM UTC-7, Mack A. Damia wrote:
> Maybe I am overthinking this one, but I don't get it.
>
> This is from Playboy's 1963 interview with Frank Sinatra:
>
> "Remember, they were men of God who destroyed the educational
> treasures at Alexandria, who perpetrated the Inquisition in Spain, who
> burned the witches at Salem. Over 25,000 organized religions flourish
> on this planet, but the followers of each think all the others are
> miserably misguided and probably evil as well. In India they worship
> white cows, monkeys and a dip in the Ganges. The Muslims accept
> slavery and prepare for Allah, who promises wine and revirginated
> women. And witch doctors aren’t just in Africa. If you look in the
> L.A. papers of a Sunday morning, you’ll see the local variety
> advertising their wares like suits with two pairs of pants..."
>
> He is calling the L.A. merchants a local variety of "witch doctor"?
>
Not merchants:
The witch doctor tries to convince us that we have to ask God for help,
to spell out to him what we need, even to bribe him with prayer or cash
on the line. Well, I believe that God knows what each of us wants and
needs. It’s not necessary for us to make it to church on Sunday to
reach Him. You can find Him anyplace. And if that sounds heretical, my
source is pretty good: Matthew, Five to Seven, The Sermon on the Mount.
<https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/frank-sinatra-1963-playboy-interview-religion-logan>

On Sat, 1 Apr 2023 18:54:04 -0700 (PDT), Jerry Friedman
<jerry.friedman99@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Saturday, April 1, 2023 at 7:46:00?PM UTC-6, Mack A. Damia wrote:
>> Maybe I am overthinking this one, but I don't get it.
>>
>> This is from Playboy's 1963 interview with Frank Sinatra:
>>
>> "Remember, they were men of God who destroyed the educational
>> treasures at Alexandria, who perpetrated the Inquisition in Spain, who
>> burned the witches at Salem. Over 25,000 organized religions flourish
>> on this planet, but the followers of each think all the others are
>> miserably misguided and probably evil as well. In India they worship
>> white cows, monkeys and a dip in the Ganges. The Muslims accept
>> slavery and prepare for Allah, who promises wine and revirginated
>> women. And witch doctors aren’t just in Africa. If you look in the
>> L.A. papers of a Sunday morning, you’ll see the local variety
>> advertising their wares like suits with two pairs of pants..."
>
>That's pretty eloquent an interview.

More:

Frank Sinatra on his religious views which he compares to Bertrand
Russell and Albert Einstein. Highlights include:
"I believe in you and me. I’m like Bertrand Russell and Albert
Einstein in that I have a respect for life — in any form. I believe in
nature, in the birds, the sea, the sky, in everything I can see or
that there is real evidence for. If these things are what you mean by
God, then I believe in God. But I don’t believe in a personal God to
whom I look for comfort or for a natural on the next roll of the dice
I’m not unmindful of man’s seeming need for faith; I’m for anything
that gets you through the night, be it prayer, tranquilizers or a
bottle of Jack Daniel’s. But to me religion is a deeply personal thing
in which man and God go it alone together, without the witch doctor in
the middle.
The witch doctor tries to convince us that we have to ask God for
help, to spell out to him what we need, even to bribe him with prayer
or cash on the line. Well, I believe that God knows what each of us
wants and needs. It’s not necessary for us to make it to church on
Sunday to reach Him. You can find Him anyplace. And if that sounds
heretical, my source is pretty good: Matthew, Five to Seven, The
Sermon on the Mount.

.... I’ve got no quarrel with men of decency at any level. But I can’t
believe that decency stems only from religion. And I can’t help
wondering how many public figures make avowals of religious faith to
maintain an aura of respectability. There are things about organized
religion which I resent. Christ is revered as the Prince of Peace, but
more blood has been shed in His name than any other figure in history.
You show me one step forward in the name of religion and I’ll show you
a hundred retrogressions.
Remember, they were men of God who destroyed the educational treasures
at Alexandria, who perpetrated the Inquisition in Spain, who burned
the witches at Salem. Over 25,000 organized religions flourish on this
planet, but the followers of each think all the others are miserably
misguided and probably evil as well. In India they worship white cows,
monkeys and a dip in the Ganges. The Muslims accept slavery and
prepare for Allah, who promises wine and revirginated women. And witch
doctors aren’t just in Africa. If you look in the L.A. papers of a
Sunday morning, you’ll see the local variety advertising their wares
like suits with two pairs of pants...

.... Have you thought of the chance I’m taking by speaking out this
way? Can you imagine the deluge of crank letters, curses, threats and
obscenities I’ll receive after these remarks gain general circulation?
Worse, the boycott of my records, my films, maybe a picket line at my
opening at the Sands. Why? Because I’ve dared to say that love and
decency are not necessarily concomitants of religious fervor."

— Frank Sinatra, February 1963 Playboy Magazine Interview

Francis Albert "Frank" Sinatra (December 12, 1915 – May 14, 1998) was
an American singer, actor, director, and producer. Sinatra is one of
the best-selling music artists of all time, having sold more than 150
million records worldwide. He was honored at the Kennedy Center Honors
in 1983 and was awarded the Presidential Medal of Freedom in 1985 and
the Congressional Gold Medal in 1997. Sinatra was also the recipient
of eleven Grammy Awards, including the Grammy Trustees Award, Grammy
Legend Award and the Grammy Lifetime Achievement Award.
One of the most popular and influential musical artists of the 20th
century, Sinatra had a popularity that was later matched only by Elvis
Presley and The Beatles. Of all the U.S. Presidents he associated with
during his career, he was closest to John F. Kennedy. According to his
daughter Nancy, Sinatra learned of Kennedy's assassination while
filming a scene of Robin and the 7 Hoods in Burbank. Sinatra quickly
finished filming the scene, returned to his Palm Springs home, and
sobbed in his bedroom for three days.

On Sun, 2 Apr 2023 00:34:02 -0700 (PDT), Dingbat
<ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com> wrote:

>On Saturday, April 1, 2023 at 6:46:00?PM UTC-7, Mack A. Damia wrote:
>> Maybe I am overthinking this one, but I don't get it.
>>
>> This is from Playboy's 1963 interview with Frank Sinatra:
>>
>> "Remember, they were men of God who destroyed the educational
>> treasures at Alexandria, who perpetrated the Inquisition in Spain, who
>> burned the witches at Salem. Over 25,000 organized religions flourish
>> on this planet, but the followers of each think all the others are
>> miserably misguided and probably evil as well. In India they worship
>> white cows, monkeys and a dip in the Ganges. The Muslims accept
>> slavery and prepare for Allah, who promises wine and revirginated
>> women. And witch doctors aren’t just in Africa. If you look in the
>> L.A. papers of a Sunday morning, you’ll see the local variety
>> advertising their wares like suits with two pairs of pants..."
>>
>> He is calling the L.A. merchants a local variety of "witch doctor"?
>>
>Not merchants:
>The witch doctor tries to convince us that we have to ask God for help,
> to spell out to him what we need, even to bribe him with prayer or cash
> on the line. Well, I believe that God knows what each of us wants and
> needs. It’s not necessary for us to make it to church on Sunday to
> reach Him. You can find Him anyplace. And if that sounds heretical, my
> source is pretty good: Matthew, Five to Seven, The Sermon on the Mount.
><https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/frank-sinatra-1963-playboy-interview-religion-logan>

Still unsure what Sinatra meant by "witch doctor"..

"The meaning of WITCH DOCTOR is a professional worker of magic usually
in a primitive society who often works to cure sickness."

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/witch%20doctor

In my thinking, the merchant is the witch doctor selling suits with
two pairs of pants as in "magic"?

On Sat, 1 Apr 2023 18:54:04 -0700 (PDT), Jerry Friedman
<jerry.friedman99@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Saturday, April 1, 2023 at 7:46:00?PM UTC-6, Mack A. Damia wrote:
>> Maybe I am overthinking this one, but I don't get it.
>>
>> This is from Playboy's 1963 interview with Frank Sinatra:
>>
>> "Remember, they were men of God who destroyed the educational
>> treasures at Alexandria, who perpetrated the Inquisition in Spain, who
>> burned the witches at Salem. Over 25,000 organized religions flourish
>> on this planet, but the followers of each think all the others are
>> miserably misguided and probably evil as well. In India they worship
>> white cows, monkeys and a dip in the Ganges. The Muslims accept
>> slavery and prepare for Allah, who promises wine and revirginated
>> women. And witch doctors aren’t just in Africa. If you look in the
>> L.A. papers of a Sunday morning, you’ll see the local variety
>> advertising their wares like suits with two pairs of pants..."
>
>That's pretty eloquent an interview.

Over 25,000? If you count all the varieties of Protestantism, Judaism,
Buddhism, Islam, etc. I suppose there are more than I know of, but
although there may be that many that exist, it's hard to believe that
there are that many that flourish. I'm hard-pressed to name more than
about 30. If I were to see a list, I'd probably see a few that I
recognized but hadn't thought of; maybe that would bring my total to
50 or so, but it's a long way from 50 to 25,000.

On 02-Apr-23 17:17, Ken Blake wrote:
> On Sat, 1 Apr 2023 18:54:04 -0700 (PDT), Jerry Friedman
> <jerry.friedman99@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Saturday, April 1, 2023 at 7:46:00?PM UTC-6, Mack A. Damia wrote:
>>> Maybe I am overthinking this one, but I don't get it.
>>>
>>> This is from Playboy's 1963 interview with Frank Sinatra:
>>>
>>> "Remember, they were men of God who destroyed the educational
>>> treasures at Alexandria, who perpetrated the Inquisition in Spain, who
>>> burned the witches at Salem. Over 25,000 organized religions flourish
>>> on this planet, but the followers of each think all the others are
>>> miserably misguided and probably evil as well. In India they worship
>>> white cows, monkeys and a dip in the Ganges. The Muslims accept
>>> slavery and prepare for Allah, who promises wine and revirginated
>>> women. And witch doctors aren’t just in Africa. If you look in the
>>> L.A. papers of a Sunday morning, you’ll see the local variety
>>> advertising their wares like suits with two pairs of pants..."
>>
>> That's pretty eloquent an interview.

Agreed. Almost too well structured for an 'off the cuff' remark.
Did Sinatra employ a ghost-writer for his interviews?

>
> Over 25,000? If you count all the varieties of Protestantism, Judaism,
> Buddhism, Islam, etc. I suppose there are more than I know of, but
> although there may be that many that exist, it's hard to believe that
> there are that many that flourish.

That 25,000 may well be a rhetorical flourish.

--
Sam Plusnet

On Sunday, April 2, 2023 at 9:02:31 AM UTC-6, Mack A. Damia wrote:
> On Sun, 2 Apr 2023 00:34:02 -0700 (PDT), Dingbat
> <ranjit_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >On Saturday, April 1, 2023 at 6:46:00?PM UTC-7, Mack A. Damia wrote:
> >> Maybe I am overthinking this one, but I don't get it.
> >>
> >> This is from Playboy's 1963 interview with Frank Sinatra:
> >>
> >> "Remember, they were men of God who destroyed the educational
> >> treasures at Alexandria, who perpetrated the Inquisition in Spain, who
> >> burned the witches at Salem. Over 25,000 organized religions flourish
> >> on this planet, but the followers of each think all the others are
> >> miserably misguided and probably evil as well. In India they worship
> >> white cows, monkeys and a dip in the Ganges. The Muslims accept
> >> slavery and prepare for Allah, who promises wine and revirginated
> >> women. And witch doctors aren’t just in Africa. If you look in the
> >> L.A. papers of a Sunday morning, you’ll see the local variety
> >> advertising their wares like suits with two pairs of pants..."
> >>
> >> He is calling the L.A. merchants a local variety of "witch doctor"?
> >>
> >Not merchants:
> >The witch doctor tries to convince us that we have to ask God for help,
> > to spell out to him what we need, even to bribe him with prayer or cash
> > on the line. Well, I believe that God knows what each of us wants and
> > needs. It’s not necessary for us to make it to church on Sunday to
> > reach Him. You can find Him anyplace. And if that sounds heretical, my
> > source is pretty good: Matthew, Five to Seven, The Sermon on the Mount.
> ><https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/frank-sinatra-1963-playboy-interview-religion-logan>

> Still unsure what Sinatra meant by "witch doctor"..

He explains it there. I was wrong--he means members of the clergy,
very much including the Christian clergy.

> "The meaning of WITCH DOCTOR is a professional worker of magic usually
> in a primitive society who often works to cure sickness."
>
> https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/witch%20doctor
>
> In my thinking, the merchant is the witch doctor selling suits with
> two pairs of pants as in "magic"?

Sinatra says the clergy advertise their wares in the paper the way
clothing stores advertise suits. The "two pairs of pants" is
just a flourish, maybe remind people of ads they saw.

--
Jerry Friedman

Jerry Friedman hat am 02.04.2023 um 21:26 geschrieben:
> Sinatra says the clergy advertise their wares in the paper the way
> clothing stores advertise suits. The "two pairs of pants" is
> just a flourish, maybe remind people of ads they saw.

I have enough fitting suits now, unless I lose or "gain" at least 10 kg,
but last time I had a look, five years ago, I could have bought suits
with one jacket and two trousers. I assume two trousers are what
Sinastra called "two pairs of pants". If I'm wrong, I rely on US
Americans to correct me.

On Sun, 2 Apr 2023 20:13:23 +0100, Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> wrote:

>On 02-Apr-23 17:17, Ken Blake wrote:
>> On Sat, 1 Apr 2023 18:54:04 -0700 (PDT), Jerry Friedman
>> <jerry.friedman99@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Saturday, April 1, 2023 at 7:46:00?PM UTC-6, Mack A. Damia wrote:
>>>> Maybe I am overthinking this one, but I don't get it.
>>>>
>>>> This is from Playboy's 1963 interview with Frank Sinatra:
>>>>
>>>> "Remember, they were men of God who destroyed the educational
>>>> treasures at Alexandria, who perpetrated the Inquisition in Spain, who
>>>> burned the witches at Salem. Over 25,000 organized religions flourish
>>>> on this planet, but the followers of each think all the others are
>>>> miserably misguided and probably evil as well. In India they worship
>>>> white cows, monkeys and a dip in the Ganges. The Muslims accept
>>>> slavery and prepare for Allah, who promises wine and revirginated
>>>> women. And witch doctors aren’t just in Africa. If you look in the
>>>> L.A. papers of a Sunday morning, you’ll see the local variety
>>>> advertising their wares like suits with two pairs of pants..."
>>>
>>> That's pretty eloquent an interview.
>
>Agreed. Almost too well structured for an 'off the cuff' remark.
>Did Sinatra employ a ghost-writer for his interviews?
>
>>
>> Over 25,000? If you count all the varieties of Protestantism, Judaism,
>> Buddhism, Islam, etc. I suppose there are more than I know of, but
>> although there may be that many that exist, it's hard to believe that
>> there are that many that flourish.
>
>That 25,000 may well be a rhetorical flourish.

Maybe so, but if so it seems like a giant rhetorical flourish.

On Sunday, April 2, 2023 at 1:50:53 PM UTC-6, Silvano wrote:
> Jerry Friedman hat am 02.04.2023 um 21:26 geschrieben:
> > Sinatra says the clergy advertise their wares in the paper the way
> > clothing stores advertise suits. The "two pairs of pants" is
> > just a flourish, maybe remind people of ads they saw.

> I have enough fitting suits now, unless I lose or "gain" at least 10 kg,
> but last time I had a look, five years ago, I could have bought suits
> with one jacket and two trousers. I assume two trousers are what
> Sinastra called "two pairs of pants". If I'm wrong, I rely on US
> Americans to correct me.

Yes, that's what people saw in newspaper ads.

--
Jerry Friedman

On Sunday, April 2, 2023 at 1:13:29 PM UTC-6, Sam Plusnet wrote:
> On 02-Apr-23 17:17, Ken Blake wrote:
> > On Sat, 1 Apr 2023 18:54:04 -0700 (PDT), Jerry Friedman
> > <jerry.fr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> On Saturday, April 1, 2023 at 7:46:00?PM UTC-6, Mack A. Damia wrote:
> >>> Maybe I am overthinking this one, but I don't get it.
> >>>
> >>> This is from Playboy's 1963 interview with Frank Sinatra:
> >>>
> >>> "Remember, they were men of God who destroyed the educational
> >>> treasures at Alexandria, who perpetrated the Inquisition in Spain, who
> >>> burned the witches at Salem. Over 25,000 organized religions flourish
> >>> on this planet, but the followers of each think all the others are
> >>> miserably misguided and probably evil as well. In India they worship
> >>> white cows, monkeys and a dip in the Ganges. The Muslims accept
> >>> slavery and prepare for Allah, who promises wine and revirginated
> >>> women. And witch doctors aren’t just in Africa. If you look in the
> >>> L.A. papers of a Sunday morning, you’ll see the local variety
> >>> advertising their wares like suits with two pairs of pants..."
> >>
> >> That's pretty eloquent

for

> >> an interview.

> Agreed. Almost too well structured for an 'off the cuff' remark.
> Did Sinatra employ a ghost-writer for his interviews?
....

Maybe, and the interview may have been conducted at least partly
in writing. Or some combination of Sinatra, his employees, and /Playboy/
employees improved the interview afterwards.

--
Jerry Friedman

On Sun, 2 Apr 2023 21:50:48 +0200, Silvano
<Silvano@noncisonopernessuno.it> wrote:

>Jerry Friedman hat am 02.04.2023 um 21:26 geschrieben:
>> Sinatra says the clergy advertise their wares in the paper the way
>> clothing stores advertise suits. The "two pairs of pants" is
>> just a flourish, maybe remind people of ads they saw.
>
>
>I have enough fitting suits now, unless I lose or "gain" at least 10 kg,
>but last time I had a look, five years ago, I could have bought suits
>with one jacket and two trousers. I assume two trousers are what
>Sinastra called "two pairs of pants". If I'm wrong, I rely on US
>Americans to correct me.

Yes. "Pants" = "Trousers" in the US.

https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/aUYAAMXQjwVQ94T5/s-l1600.jpg

The above advertisement is from the 1920s, but suits with two pair of
trousers were commonly available for many years after that. The
material wasn't the blended fabrics seen today, so the trousers would
get that baggy look after a couple of wearings. "Permanent Press" and
stain-resistant fabrics rather obviated the need for a second pair of
trousers.

Not mentioned is the "three-piece suit", which describes a suit with a
vest, or waistcoat. We don't use "vest" to describe what is worn
under a shirt.

--

Tony Cooper - Orlando,Florida

Sam Plusnet submitted this idea :
> On 02-Apr-23 17:17, Ken Blake wrote:
>> On Sat, 1 Apr 2023 18:54:04 -0700 (PDT), Jerry Friedman
>> <jerry.friedman99@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Saturday, April 1, 2023 at 7:46:00?PM UTC-6, Mack A. Damia wrote:
>>>> Maybe I am overthinking this one, but I don't get it.
>>>>
>>>> This is from Playboy's 1963 interview with Frank Sinatra:
>>>>
>>>> "Remember, they were men of God who destroyed the educational
>>>> treasures at Alexandria, who perpetrated the Inquisition in Spain, who
>>>> burned the witches at Salem. Over 25,000 organized religions flourish
>>>> on this planet, but the followers of each think all the others are
>>>> miserably misguided and probably evil as well. In India they worship
>>>> white cows, monkeys and a dip in the Ganges. The Muslims accept
>>>> slavery and prepare for Allah, who promises wine and revirginated
>>>> women. And witch doctors aren’t just in Africa. If you look in the
>>>> L.A. papers of a Sunday morning, you’ll see the local variety
>>>> advertising their wares like suits with two pairs of pants..."
>>>
>>> That's pretty eloquent an interview.
>
> Agreed. Almost too well structured for an 'off the cuff' remark.
> Did Sinatra employ a ghost-writer for his interviews?
>
>>
>> Over 25,000? If you count all the varieties of Protestantism, Judaism,
>> Buddhism, Islam, etc. I suppose there are more than I know of, but
>> although there may be that many that exist, it's hard to believe that
>> there are that many that flourish.
>
> That 25,000 may well be a rhetorical flourish.

Well, The Major Religions have been very successful in conversions. In
an earlier thread, I posted a message that included the words "But the
Sora Indigenous (or Adivasi) people in the highlands
of Odisha, eastern India, talk to the dead and listen to them to."

That religion only numbered a few thousand people at most, and in the
time since 1980, many of them converted to a main stream religion
(mostly to Hinduism).

Look to similar stories around other outer reaches, the highlands and
the fringes of wastelands, and look beyond your experiences of Europe
and North America.

/dps

--
There's nothing inherently wrong with Big Data. What matters, as it
does for Arnold Lund in California or Richard Rothman in Baltimore, are
the questions -- old and new, good and bad -- this newest tool lets us
ask. (R. Lerhman, CSMonitor.com)

Snidely explained on 4/2/2023 :
> Sam Plusnet submitted this idea :
>> On 02-Apr-23 17:17, Ken Blake wrote:
>>> On Sat, 1 Apr 2023 18:54:04 -0700 (PDT), Jerry Friedman
>>> <jerry.friedman99@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Saturday, April 1, 2023 at 7:46:00?PM UTC-6, Mack A. Damia wrote:
>>>>> Maybe I am overthinking this one, but I don't get it.
>>>>>
>>>>> This is from Playboy's 1963 interview with Frank Sinatra:
>>>>>
>>>>> "Remember, they were men of God who destroyed the educational
>>>>> treasures at Alexandria, who perpetrated the Inquisition in Spain, who
>>>>> burned the witches at Salem. Over 25,000 organized religions flourish
>>>>> on this planet, but the followers of each think all the others are
>>>>> miserably misguided and probably evil as well. In India they worship
>>>>> white cows, monkeys and a dip in the Ganges. The Muslims accept
>>>>> slavery and prepare for Allah, who promises wine and revirginated
>>>>> women. And witch doctors aren’t just in Africa. If you look in the
>>>>> L.A. papers of a Sunday morning, you’ll see the local variety
>>>>> advertising their wares like suits with two pairs of pants..."
>>>>
>>>> That's pretty eloquent an interview.
>>
>> Agreed. Almost too well structured for an 'off the cuff' remark.
>> Did Sinatra employ a ghost-writer for his interviews?
>>
>>>
>>> Over 25,000? If you count all the varieties of Protestantism, Judaism,
>>> Buddhism, Islam, etc. I suppose there are more than I know of, but
>>> although there may be that many that exist, it's hard to believe that
>>> there are that many that flourish.
>>
>> That 25,000 may well be a rhetorical flourish.
>
> Well, The Major Religions have been very successful in conversions. In an
> earlier thread, I posted a message that included the words "But the Sora
> Indigenous (or Adivasi) people in the highlands
> of Odisha, eastern India, talk to the dead and listen to them to."
>
> That religion only numbered a few thousand people at most, and in the time
> since 1980, many of them converted to a main stream religion (mostly to
> Hinduism).
>
> Look to similar stories around other outer reaches, the highlands and the
> fringes of wastelands, and look beyond your experiences of Europe and North
> America.

I do agree that Sinatra was probably being rhetorically expansive, and
he probably only had a vague idea of there being religions that weren't
among the Top 10, and in 1963 few people outside of their region of
ndia had heard of the Sora/Adivasi.

/dps

--
There's nothing inherently wrong with Big Data. What matters, as it
does for Arnold Lund in California or Richard Rothman in Baltimore, are
the questions -- old and new, good and bad -- this newest tool lets us
ask. (R. Lerhman, CSMonitor.com)

On 3/04/2023 4:17 a.m., Ken Blake wrote:
> On Sat, 1 Apr 2023 18:54:04 -0700 (PDT), Jerry Friedman
> <jerry.friedman99@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Saturday, April 1, 2023 at 7:46:00?PM UTC-6, Mack A. Damia wrote:
>>> Maybe I am overthinking this one, but I don't get it.
>>>
>>> This is from Playboy's 1963 interview with Frank Sinatra:
>>>
>>> "Remember, they were men of God who destroyed the educational
>>> treasures at Alexandria, who perpetrated the Inquisition in Spain, who
>>> burned the witches at Salem. Over 25,000 organized religions flourish
>>> on this planet, but the followers of each think all the others are
>>> miserably misguided and probably evil as well. In India they worship
>>> white cows, monkeys and a dip in the Ganges. The Muslims accept
>>> slavery and prepare for Allah, who promises wine and revirginated
>>> women. And witch doctors aren’t just in Africa. If you look in the
>>> L.A. papers of a Sunday morning, you’ll see the local variety
>>> advertising their wares like suits with two pairs of pants..."
>>
>> That's pretty eloquent an interview.
>
>
>
> Over 25,000? If you count all the varieties of Protestantism, Judaism,
> Buddhism, Islam, etc. I suppose there are more than I know of, but
> although there may be that many that exist, it's hard to believe that
> there are that many that flourish. I'm hard-pressed to name more than
> about 30. If I were to see a list, I'd probably see a few that I
> recognized but hadn't thought of; maybe that would bring my total to
> 50 or so, but it's a long way from 50 to 25,000.
>

Here's a list:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_religions_and_spiritual_traditions

On 02-Apr-23 22:07, Ross Clark wrote:
> On 3/04/2023 4:17 a.m., Ken Blake wrote:
>> On Sat, 1 Apr 2023 18:54:04 -0700 (PDT), Jerry Friedman
>> <jerry.friedman99@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Saturday, April 1, 2023 at 7:46:00?PM UTC-6, Mack A. Damia wrote:
>>>> Maybe I am overthinking this one, but I don't get it.
>>>>
>>>> This is from Playboy's 1963 interview with Frank Sinatra:
>>>>
>>>> "Remember, they were men of God who destroyed the educational
>>>> treasures at Alexandria, who perpetrated the Inquisition in Spain, who
>>>> burned the witches at Salem. Over 25,000 organized religions flourish
>>>> on this planet, but the followers of each think all the others are
>>>> miserably misguided and probably evil as well. In India they worship
>>>> white cows, monkeys and a dip in the Ganges. The Muslims accept
>>>> slavery and prepare for Allah, who promises wine and revirginated
>>>> women. And witch doctors aren’t just in Africa. If you look in the
>>>> L.A. papers of a Sunday morning, you’ll see the local variety
>>>> advertising their wares like suits with two pairs of pants..."
>>>
>>> That's pretty eloquent an interview.
>>
>>
>>
>> Over 25,000? If you count all the varieties of Protestantism, Judaism,
>> Buddhism, Islam, etc. I suppose there are more than I know of, but
>> although there may be that many that exist, it's hard to believe that
>> there are that many that flourish. I'm hard-pressed to name more than
>> about 30. If I were to see a list, I'd probably see a few that I
>> recognized but  hadn't thought of; maybe that would bring my total to
>> 50 or so, but it's a long way from 50 to 25,000.
>>
>
> Here's a list:
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_religions_and_spiritual_traditions

I see they have missed a few, but this margin is too small to...

--
Sam Plusnet

On Sun, 02 Apr 2023 13:42:57 -0700, Snidely <snidely.too@gmail.com>
wrote:

>Sam Plusnet submitted this idea :
>> On 02-Apr-23 17:17, Ken Blake wrote:
>>> On Sat, 1 Apr 2023 18:54:04 -0700 (PDT), Jerry Friedman
>>> <jerry.friedman99@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Saturday, April 1, 2023 at 7:46:00?PM UTC-6, Mack A. Damia wrote:
>>>>> Maybe I am overthinking this one, but I don't get it.
>>>>>
>>>>> This is from Playboy's 1963 interview with Frank Sinatra:
>>>>>
>>>>> "Remember, they were men of God who destroyed the educational
>>>>> treasures at Alexandria, who perpetrated the Inquisition in Spain, who
>>>>> burned the witches at Salem. Over 25,000 organized religions flourish
>>>>> on this planet, but the followers of each think all the others are
>>>>> miserably misguided and probably evil as well. In India they worship
>>>>> white cows, monkeys and a dip in the Ganges. The Muslims accept
>>>>> slavery and prepare for Allah, who promises wine and revirginated
>>>>> women. And witch doctors aren’t just in Africa. If you look in the
>>>>> L.A. papers of a Sunday morning, you’ll see the local variety
>>>>> advertising their wares like suits with two pairs of pants..."
>>>>
>>>> That's pretty eloquent an interview.
>>
>> Agreed. Almost too well structured for an 'off the cuff' remark.
>> Did Sinatra employ a ghost-writer for his interviews?
>>
>>>
>>> Over 25,000? If you count all the varieties of Protestantism, Judaism,
>>> Buddhism, Islam, etc. I suppose there are more than I know of, but
>>> although there may be that many that exist, it's hard to believe that
>>> there are that many that flourish.
>>
>> That 25,000 may well be a rhetorical flourish.
>
>Well, The Major Religions have been very successful in conversions. In
>an earlier thread, I posted a message that included the words "But the
>Sora Indigenous (or Adivasi) people in the highlands
>of Odisha, eastern India, talk to the dead and listen to them to."
>
>That religion only numbered a few thousand people at most, and in the
>time since 1980, many of them converted to a main stream religion
>(mostly to Hinduism).
>
>Look to similar stories around other outer reaches, the highlands and
>the fringes of wastelands, and look beyond your experiences of Europe
>and North America.

I'm sure there are many religions I've never heard of in Asia, Africa,
and South America, but my point was that the great majority of them
have only a few adherents and are therefore far from "flourishing."
You gave an example of one.

On Mon, 3 Apr 2023 09:07:22 +1200, Ross Clark <benlizro@ihug.co.nz>
wrote:

>On 3/04/2023 4:17 a.m., Ken Blake wrote:
>> On Sat, 1 Apr 2023 18:54:04 -0700 (PDT), Jerry Friedman
>> <jerry.friedman99@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Saturday, April 1, 2023 at 7:46:00?PM UTC-6, Mack A. Damia wrote:
>>>> Maybe I am overthinking this one, but I don't get it.
>>>>
>>>> This is from Playboy's 1963 interview with Frank Sinatra:
>>>>
>>>> "Remember, they were men of God who destroyed the educational
>>>> treasures at Alexandria, who perpetrated the Inquisition in Spain, who
>>>> burned the witches at Salem. Over 25,000 organized religions flourish
>>>> on this planet, but the followers of each think all the others are
>>>> miserably misguided and probably evil as well. In India they worship
>>>> white cows, monkeys and a dip in the Ganges. The Muslims accept
>>>> slavery and prepare for Allah, who promises wine and revirginated
>>>> women. And witch doctors aren’t just in Africa. If you look in the
>>>> L.A. papers of a Sunday morning, you’ll see the local variety
>>>> advertising their wares like suits with two pairs of pants..."
>>>
>>> That's pretty eloquent an interview.
>>
>>
>>
>> Over 25,000? If you count all the varieties of Protestantism, Judaism,
>> Buddhism, Islam, etc. I suppose there are more than I know of, but
>> although there may be that many that exist, it's hard to believe that
>> there are that many that flourish. I'm hard-pressed to name more than
>> about 30. If I were to see a list, I'd probably see a few that I
>> recognized but hadn't thought of; maybe that would bring my total to
>> 50 or so, but it's a long way from 50 to 25,000.
>>
>
>Here's a list:
>
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_religions_and_spiritual_traditions

Yes, a lot if you count all the variations of a single religion, but
with few adherents for many of them, far from flourishing.

And by my rough count, that list has only about 2,000 and many of them
no longer exist. Flourishing or not, and still existing or not, 2,000
is still a long way from 25,000.

My point was that that 25,000 was almost certainly an enormous
overstatement.

On Sunday, April 2, 2023 at 12:26:05 PM UTC-7, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> On Sunday, April 2, 2023 at 9:02:31 AM UTC-6, Mack A. Damia wrote:
> > On Sun, 2 Apr 2023 00:34:02 -0700 (PDT), Dingbat
> > <ranjit_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > >On Saturday, April 1, 2023 at 6:46:00?PM UTC-7, Mack A. Damia wrote:
> > >> Maybe I am overthinking this one, but I don't get it.
> > >>
> > >> This is from Playboy's 1963 interview with Frank Sinatra:
> > >>
> > >> "Remember, they were men of God who destroyed the educational
> > >> treasures at Alexandria, who perpetrated the Inquisition in Spain, who
> > >> burned the witches at Salem. Over 25,000 organized religions flourish
> > >> on this planet, but the followers of each think all the others are
> > >> miserably misguided and probably evil as well. In India they worship
> > >> white cows, monkeys and a dip in the Ganges. The Muslims accept
> > >> slavery and prepare for Allah, who promises wine and revirginated
> > >> women. And witch doctors aren’t just in Africa. If you look in the
> > >> L.A. papers of a Sunday morning, you’ll see the local variety
> > >> advertising their wares like suits with two pairs of pants..."
> > >>
> > >> He is calling the L.A. merchants a local variety of "witch doctor"?
> > >>
> > >Not merchants:
> > >The witch doctor tries to convince us that we have to ask God for help,
> > > to spell out to him what we need, even to bribe him with prayer or cash
> > > on the line. Well, I believe that God knows what each of us wants and
> > > needs. It’s not necessary for us to make it to church on Sunday to
> > > reach Him. You can find Him anyplace. And if that sounds heretical, my
> > > source is pretty good: Matthew, Five to Seven, The Sermon on the Mount.
> > ><https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/frank-sinatra-1963-playboy-interview-religion-logan>
>
> > Still unsure what Sinatra meant by "witch doctor"..
> He explains it there. I was wrong--he means members of the clergy,
> very much including the Christian clergy.
> > "The meaning of WITCH DOCTOR is a professional worker of magic usually
> > in a primitive society who often works to cure sickness."
> >
> > https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/witch%20doctor
> >
> > In my thinking, the merchant is the witch doctor selling suits with
> > two pairs of pants as in "magic"?
> Sinatra says the clergy advertise their wares in the paper the way
> clothing stores advertise suits. The "two pairs of pants" is
> just a flourish, maybe remind people of ads they saw.
>
The witch doctor tries to convince us that we have to ask God for help,
to spell out to him what we need, even to bribe him with prayer or cash
on the line. Well, I believe that God knows what each of us wants and
needs. It’s not necessary for us to make it to church on Sunday to
reach Him. You can find Him anyplace. And if that sounds heretical,
my source is pretty good: Matthew, Five to Seven, The Sermon on the
Mount.
<https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/frank-sinatra-1963-playboy-interview-religion-logan>

On 3/04/2023 12:06 p.m., Ken Blake wrote:
> On Mon, 3 Apr 2023 09:07:22 +1200, Ross Clark <benlizro@ihug.co.nz>
> wrote:
>
>> On 3/04/2023 4:17 a.m., Ken Blake wrote:
>>> On Sat, 1 Apr 2023 18:54:04 -0700 (PDT), Jerry Friedman
>>> <jerry.friedman99@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Saturday, April 1, 2023 at 7:46:00?PM UTC-6, Mack A. Damia wrote:
>>>>> Maybe I am overthinking this one, but I don't get it.
>>>>>
>>>>> This is from Playboy's 1963 interview with Frank Sinatra:
>>>>>
>>>>> "Remember, they were men of God who destroyed the educational
>>>>> treasures at Alexandria, who perpetrated the Inquisition in Spain, who
>>>>> burned the witches at Salem. Over 25,000 organized religions flourish
>>>>> on this planet, but the followers of each think all the others are
>>>>> miserably misguided and probably evil as well. In India they worship
>>>>> white cows, monkeys and a dip in the Ganges. The Muslims accept
>>>>> slavery and prepare for Allah, who promises wine and revirginated
>>>>> women. And witch doctors aren’t just in Africa. If you look in the
>>>>> L.A. papers of a Sunday morning, you’ll see the local variety
>>>>> advertising their wares like suits with two pairs of pants..."
>>>>
>>>> That's pretty eloquent an interview.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Over 25,000? If you count all the varieties of Protestantism, Judaism,
>>> Buddhism, Islam, etc. I suppose there are more than I know of, but
>>> although there may be that many that exist, it's hard to believe that
>>> there are that many that flourish. I'm hard-pressed to name more than
>>> about 30. If I were to see a list, I'd probably see a few that I
>>> recognized but hadn't thought of; maybe that would bring my total to
>>> 50 or so, but it's a long way from 50 to 25,000.
>>>
>>
>> Here's a list:
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_religions_and_spiritual_traditions
>
>
> Yes, a lot if you count all the variations of a single religion, but
> with few adherents for many of them, far from flourishing.

Part of the point was that what to you are "variations of a single
religion" may in fact condemn each other to hell fire. By "flourish" I
suspect all he meant was that they're still in business, and there are a
lot of them. (Remember this is a list of groups who have a Wikipedia
article.)

> And by my rough count, that list has only about 2,000 and many of them
> no longer exist. Flourishing or not, and still existing or not, 2,000
> is still a long way from 25,000. >
> My point was that that 25,000 was almost certainly an enormous
> overstatement.

As much of an overstatement as your original guess was an understatement.

TonyCooper hat am 02.04.2023 um 22:31 geschrieben:
> On Sun, 2 Apr 2023 21:50:48 +0200, Silvano
> <Silvano@noncisonopernessuno.it> wrote:
>
>> Jerry Friedman hat am 02.04.2023 um 21:26 geschrieben:
>>> Sinatra says the clergy advertise their wares in the paper the way
>>> clothing stores advertise suits. The "two pairs of pants" is
>>> just a flourish, maybe remind people of ads they saw.
>>
>>
>> I have enough fitting suits now, unless I lose or "gain" at least 10 kg,
>> but last time I had a look, five years ago, I could have bought suits
>> with one jacket and two trousers. I assume two trousers are what
>> Sinastra called "two pairs of pants". If I'm wrong, I rely on US
>> Americans to correct me.
>
> Yes. "Pants" = "Trousers" in the US.
>
> https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/aUYAAMXQjwVQ94T5/s-l1600.jpg
>
> The above advertisement is from the 1920s, but suits with two pair of
> trousers were commonly available for many years after that.

What still confuses me: I read "two pants" in that ad, but you and
Sinatra use "*two pair(s)* of pants/trousers. Why two pairs? Because
it's four legs in total?

Is it common to say "two pairs of pants" in the US and "two pairs of
trousers" in the UK for two pieces of clothing? The other way round: is
it strange, unusual or wrong in the US to say "two pants" and "two
trousers" in the UK for two pieces of clothing?

On 03/04/23 07:07, Ross Clark wrote:
> On 3/04/2023 4:17 a.m., Ken Blake wrote:

>> Over 25,000? If you count all the varieties of Protestantism,
>> Judaism, Buddhism, Islam, etc. I suppose there are more than I know
>> of, but although there may be that many that exist, it's hard to
>> believe that there are that many that flourish. I'm hard-pressed to
>> name more than about 30. If I were to see a list, I'd probably see
>> a few that I recognized but hadn't thought of; maybe that would
>> bring my total to 50 or so, but it's a long way from 50 to 25,000.
>
> Here's a list:
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_religions_and_spiritual_traditions

Thanks.

I see no mention of prosperity theology, or what I think of as
the anti-Jesus branch of Christianity. That's really growing in terms of
recruitment.

But perhaps that's just considered to be a subset of happy-clappy.

--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org

Tony Cooper:
> > Yes. "Pants" = "Trousers" in the US.
> >
> > https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/aUYAAMXQjwVQ94T5/s-l1600.jpg
> >
> > The above advertisement is from the 1920s, but suits with two pair of
> > trousers were commonly available for many years after that.

"Silvano":
> What still confuses me: I read "two pants" in that ad, but you and
> Sinatra use "*two pair(s)* of pants/trousers.

Yes. Note that the 1920s ad also refers to "the extra pair".

> Why two pairs? Because it's four legs in total?

In effect. "A pair of" is regularly used in this way with any word
referring to any kind of trousers (that I can think of), as well as
scissors, (eye)glasses, and binoculars -- all things that consist of
two similar attached parts.

> Is it common to say "two pairs of pants" in the US and "two pairs of
> trousers" in the UK for two pieces of clothing?

Yes. And as far as I'm concerned neither "pants" or "trousers" is
a foreign usage. Some people prefer one word, some the other.

> The other way round: is it strange, unusual or wrong in the US to say
> "two pants" and "two trousers" in the UK for two pieces of clothing?

Yes.

"Two pair" without an S is also wrong in my English.
--
Mark Brader | "And don't forget there were five separate computers
msb@vex.net | in those days."
Toronto | -- Bob NE20G3018 (Ira Levin, "This Perfect Day")

My text in this article is in the public domain.