On Saturday, March 25, 2023 at 7:04:01 AM UTC-6, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> On 2023-03-25 11:05:21 +0000, J. J. Lodder said:
>
> > Peter Moylan <pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
> >
> >> On 24/03/23 22:58, Paul Wolff wrote:
> >>> On Fri, 24 Mar 2023, at 11:10:55, Athel Cornish-Bowden posted:
> >>
> >>>> My wife has that problem. One of her ancestors was the hero of the
> >>>> War of the Pacific of 1979. He was also inconsiderate enough to die
> >>>> childless (wifeless as well). Also an admiral.
> >>>>
> >>> I think I can do better than that. Family lore says one of my (our)
> >>> ancestors was the presumably celibate Cardinal Archbishop of
> >>> Canterbury who helped negotiate Magna Carta and is immured in a wall
> >>> of the cathedral. His feet, or possibly his head, project(s).
> >>>
> >>> The story must have grown greatly through the generations. Whether
> >>> they were his generations or not, no-one now can say. I'm not even
> >>> sure that DNA testing on his bone residues would be useful if he were
> >>> merely a remotely great uncle. Wikip mentions two brothers: one was
> >>> another archbishop, the other died childless. Work it out.
> >>
> >> A DNA test is unlikely to settle the matter. I've been involved in some
> >> DNA detective work which _almost_ identified someone's father, but it
> >> turned out that the answer could have been one of two brothers. (Later,
> >> the ambiguity was resolved with the discovery of another relative who
> >> was definitely known to be the daughter of one of those brothers.) If
> >> you're descended from one brother, you'll have very similar DNA matches
> >> with the other brothers.
> >>
> >> I've just remembered another case. Someone contacted me because the
> >> evidence seemed to show that her great-grandfather was my
> >> great-grandfather. It turned out, though, that my ggfather was already
> >> in Australia by the time the relevant person was conceived in Ireland,
> >> so the suspect had to be one of the brothers of my great-grandfather.
> >>
> >> My own surname strongly suggests that I'm descended from someone who was
> >> tonsured.
> >
> > Brothers intruding into the line was not unusual, in older times.
> > Property and inheriting was important, to those who had land.
> >
> > When a couple remained childless for much longer than expected,
> > and the husband was suspected to be the cause
> > a brother was sometimes asked to help out,
> or father. This point !s obvious to you and me, but it wasn't obvious
> to Brian Sykes in his book Adam's Curse: A Future without Men. The book
> is unsatisfactory at many levels (though fascinating to read when he
> doesn't get bogged down in ignorant theorizing), and he has a dishonest
> attitude to statistics -- using them when they suit his purpose, but
> dismissing them when they don't. (The example is relevant, because
> Sykes was discussing Y chromosomes, and it doesn't make any difference
> whether they come from husband, brother-in-law or father-in-law.)
>
> In years gone by it was rare for the husband was "suspected to be the
> cause": infertility was always the woman's fault, and she was under
> great social pressure to produce children.

> > with or without the husbands knowledge or permission,
> > (or she liked to try it anyway)

That was probably the popular and official belief, but I'll bet sometimes
the wife and others in the family did their own suspecting.

--
Jerry Friedman

On Saturday, March 25, 2023 at 12:57:47 AM UTC-6, Peter Moylan wrote:
> On 25/03/23 16:53, bil...@shaw.ca wrote:
>
> > There is a school of thought, which I find persuasive, that
> > Marilyn Monroe remains famous/notorious because she was
> > widely seen and exploited as a sex symbol.
> A song from my school days:
>
> On top of old Smokey
> Where nobody goes
> Sat Marilyn Monroe
> Without any clothes.
....

Is it possible that "Monroe" was accented on the first syllable, or
were schoolchildren just making the name fit the tune.

--
Jerry Friedman

On 2023-03-25 15:46:18 +0000, Jerry Friedman said:

> On Saturday, March 25, 2023 at 12:57:47 AM UTC-6, Peter Moylan wrote:
>> On 25/03/23 16:53, bil...@shaw.ca wrote:>> > There is a school of
>> thought, which I find persuasive, that> > Marilyn Monroe remains
>> famous/notorious because she was> > widely seen and exploited as a sex
>> symbol.
>> A song from my school days:>> On top of old Smokey> Where nobody goes>
>> Sat Marilyn Monroe> Without any clothes....
>
> Is it possible that "Monroe" was accented on the first syllable, or
> were schoolchildren just making the name fit the tune.

Quite likely. It's quite common in British English to stress names on
the first syllable when thet're stressed on the last syllable in
American English. Peter Moylan can tell us how it is in Australian
English.

--
Athel -- French and British, living in Marseilles for 36 years; mainly
in England until 1987.

Athel Cornish-Bowden <athel.cb@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 2023-03-25 11:05:21 +0000, J. J. Lodder said:
>
> > bil...@shaw.ca <billvan@shaw.ca> wrote:
> >
> >> On Friday, March 24, 2023 at 3:10:56?AM UTC-7, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> >>> On 2023-03-24 09:39:38 +0000, J. J. Lodder said:
> >>>
> >>>> Bertel Lund Hansen <gade...@lundhansen.dk> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> Den 23.03.2023 kl. 22.57 skrev J. J. Lodder:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>> In case you are actually wondering, "orange" was the name of the
> >>>>>>> fruit before it became the name of a color.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> And after that the princes of Orange took the colour as their own,
> >>>>>> (with some help by Piet Hein)
> >>>>>
> >>>>> What? Had Piet Hein something to do with that?
> >>>>
> >>>> It was Piet Hein's famous, but most inconsiderate ancestor,
> >>>> with precisely the same name.
> >>>>
> >>>> Piet Hein has explained somewhere that it was most inconsiderate
> >>>> of his ancestor Piet Hein to die childless.
> >>>> You cannot demand much of an ancestor, he said,
> >>>> but the very least you can expect of him
> >>>> is to die while leaving some children,
> >>> My wife has that problem. One of her ancestors was the hero of the War
> >>> of the Pacific of 1979. He was also inconsiderate enough to die
> >>> childless (wifeless as well). Also an admiral.
> >>
> >> Zijn dade benne groot. Sung in the 1950s by Dutch children
> >> and by their parents in the evenings, after a cold genever/jenever or two.
> >
> > Perhaps still, but he may have become an un-person nowadays.
> > This is kind of strange, for Piet Hein was one of the few persons
> > in the 17th century who spoke out against slavery.
> >
> > Piet Hein captured a silver fleet
> > with 'Spaanse matten en appeltjes van Oranje' on board.
> > The 'appeltjes van oranje are obvious,
> > but 'Spaanse matten' are no longer recognised for what they were,
> > Spanish silver coins of eight real.
> > <https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spaanse_mat_(munt)>
> > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_dollar>
> >
> > So Piet Hein captured what was to become silver American dollars,
> > a fleetload full of them.
>
> Galvarino Riveros Cárdenas didn't capture a fleetload of silver, but he
> captured the Huáscar, the pride of the Peruvian navy.

An all British ship, but they had ordered and paid for it.

Jan

> > Americans should be grateful to him.
> > Amsterdam bankers used three million guilders of that silver
> > (so 30 tons of it) to save the fledgling US of A from bankruptcy.
> > (by lending it to them, through the agency of John Adams)
> >
> > Jan

On 2023-03-25 17:28:46 +0000, J. J. Lodder said:

> Athel Cornish-Bowden <athel.cb@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On 2023-03-25 11:05:21 +0000, J. J. Lodder said:
>>
>>> bil...@shaw.ca <billvan@shaw.ca> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Friday, March 24, 2023 at 3:10:56?AM UTC-7, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>>>>> On 2023-03-24 09:39:38 +0000, J. J. Lodder said:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Bertel Lund Hansen <gade...@lundhansen.dk> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Den 23.03.2023 kl. 22.57 skrev J. J. Lodder:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> In case you are actually wondering, "orange" was the name of the
>>>>>>>>> fruit before it became the name of a color.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And after that the princes of Orange took the colour as their own,
>>>>>>>> (with some help by Piet Hein)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What? Had Piet Hein something to do with that?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It was Piet Hein's famous, but most inconsiderate ancestor,
>>>>>> with precisely the same name.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Piet Hein has explained somewhere that it was most inconsiderate
>>>>>> of his ancestor Piet Hein to die childless.
>>>>>> You cannot demand much of an ancestor, he said,
>>>>>> but the very least you can expect of him
>>>>>> is to die while leaving some children,
>>>>> My wife has that problem. One of her ancestors was the hero of the War
>>>>> of the Pacific of 1979. He was also inconsiderate enough to die
>>>>> childless (wifeless as well). Also an admiral.
>>>>
>>>> Zijn dade benne groot. Sung in the 1950s by Dutch children
>>>> and by their parents in the evenings, after a cold genever/jenever or two.
>>>
>>> Perhaps still, but he may have become an un-person nowadays.
>>> This is kind of strange, for Piet Hein was one of the few persons
>>> in the 17th century who spoke out against slavery.
>>>
>>> Piet Hein captured a silver fleet
>>> with 'Spaanse matten en appeltjes van Oranje' on board.
>>> The 'appeltjes van oranje are obvious,
>>> but 'Spaanse matten' are no longer recognised for what they were,
>>> Spanish silver coins of eight real.
>>> <https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spaanse_mat_(munt)>
>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_dollar>
>>>
>>> So Piet Hein captured what was to become silver American dollars,
>>> a fleetload full of them.
>>
>> Galvarino Riveros Cárdenas didn't capture a fleetload of silver, but he
>> captured the Huáscar, the pride of the Peruvian navy.
>
> An all British ship,

Of course. I don't think the Peruvian shipbuilding industry was very
developed (if at all). I have visited the Huáscar at Talcahuano: the
thing that surprised me most was how *small* it is. Wikipedia gives its
length as 58 m, but in my memory it is much smaller than that.

> but they had ordered and paid for it.
>
> Jan
>
>>> Americans should be grateful to him.
>>> Amsterdam bankers used three million guilders of that silver
>>> (so 30 tons of it) to save the fledgling US of A from bankruptcy.
>>> (by lending it to them, through the agency of John Adams)
>>>
>>> Jan

--
Athel -- French and British, living in Marseilles for 36 years; mainly
in England until 1987.

On 25-Mar-23 13:04, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> On 2023-03-25 11:05:21 +0000, J. J. Lodder said:
>
>> Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> On 24/03/23 22:58, Paul Wolff wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 24 Mar 2023, at 11:10:55, Athel Cornish-Bowden posted:
>>>
>>>>> My wife has that problem. One of her ancestors was the hero of the
>>>>> War of the Pacific of 1979. He was also inconsiderate enough to die
>>>>> childless (wifeless as well). Also an admiral.
>>>>>
>>>> I think I can do better than that. Family lore says one of my (our)
>>>> ancestors was the presumably celibate Cardinal Archbishop of
>>>> Canterbury who helped negotiate Magna Carta and is immured in a wall
>>>> of the cathedral. His feet, or possibly his head, project(s).
>>>>
>>>> The story must have grown greatly through the generations. Whether
>>>> they were his generations or not, no-one now can say. I'm not even
>>>> sure that DNA testing on his bone residues would be useful if he were
>>>> merely a remotely great uncle. Wikip mentions two brothers: one was
>>>> another archbishop, the other died childless. Work it out.
>>>
>>> A DNA test is unlikely to settle the matter. I've been involved in some
>>> DNA detective work which _almost_ identified someone's father, but it
>>> turned out that the answer could have been one of two brothers. (Later,
>>> the ambiguity was resolved with the discovery of another relative who
>>> was definitely known to be the daughter of one of those brothers.) If
>>> you're descended from one brother, you'll have very similar DNA matches
>>> with the other brothers.
>>>
>>> I've just remembered another case. Someone contacted me because the
>>> evidence seemed to show that her great-grandfather was my
>>> great-grandfather. It turned out, though, that my ggfather was already
>>> in Australia by the time the relevant person was conceived in Ireland,
>>> so the suspect had to be one of the brothers of my great-grandfather.
>>>
>>> My own surname strongly suggests that I'm descended from someone who was
>>> tonsured.
>>
>> Brothers intruding into the line was not unusual, in older times.
>> Property and inheriting was important, to those who had land.
>>
>> When a couple remained childless for much longer than expected,
>> and the husband was suspected to be the cause
>> a brother was sometimes asked to help out,
>
> or father. This point !s obvious to you and me, but it wasn't obvious to
> Brian Sykes in his book Adam's Curse: A Future without Men. The book is
> unsatisfactory at many levels (though fascinating to read when he
> doesn't get bogged down in ignorant theorizing), and he has a dishonest
> attitude to statistics -- using them when they suit his purpose, but
> dismissing them when they don't. (The example is relevant, because Sykes
> was discussing Y chromosomes, and it doesn't make any difference whether
> they come from husband, brother-in-law or father-in-law.)
>
> In years gone by it was rare for the husband was "suspected to be the
> cause": infertility was always the woman's fault, and she was under
> great social pressure to produce children.

And that, children, is how the Church of England was created.

--
Sam Plusnet

Jerry Friedman <jerry.friedman99@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Saturday, March 25, 2023 at 5:05:44?AM UTC-6, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> > Peter Moylan <pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
> >
> > > On 24/03/23 22:58, Paul Wolff wrote:
> > > > On Fri, 24 Mar 2023, at 11:10:55, Athel Cornish-Bowden posted:
> > >
> > > >> My wife has that problem. One of her ancestors was the hero of the
> > > >> War of the Pacific of 1979. He was also inconsiderate enough to die
> > > >> childless (wifeless as well). Also an admiral.
> > > >>
> > > > I think I can do better than that. Family lore says one of my (our)
> > > > ancestors was the presumably celibate Cardinal Archbishop of
> > > > Canterbury who helped negotiate Magna Carta and is immured in a wall
> > > > of the cathedral. His feet, or possibly his head, project(s).
> > > >
> > > > The story must have grown greatly through the generations. Whether
> > > > they were his generations or not, no-one now can say. I'm not even
> > > > sure that DNA testing on his bone residues would be useful if he were
> > > > merely a remotely great uncle. Wikip mentions two brothers: one was
> > > > another archbishop, the other died childless. Work it out.
> > >
> > > A DNA test is unlikely to settle the matter. I've been involved in some
> > > DNA detective work which _almost_ identified someone's father, but it
> > > turned out that the answer could have been one of two brothers. (Later,
> > > the ambiguity was resolved with the discovery of another relative who
> > > was definitely known to be the daughter of one of those brothers.) If
> > > you're descended from one brother, you'll have very similar DNA matches
> > > with the other brothers.
> > >
> > > I've just remembered another case. Someone contacted me because the
> > > evidence seemed to show that her great-grandfather was my
> > > great-grandfather. It turned out, though, that my ggfather was already
> > > in Australia by the time the relevant person was conceived in Ireland,
> > > so the suspect had to be one of the brothers of my great-grandfather.
> ...
>
> > Brothers intruding into the line was not unusual, in older times.
> > Property and inheriting was important, to those who had land.
> >
> > When a couple remained childless for much longer than expected,
> > and the husband was suspected to be the cause
> > a brother was sometimes asked to help out,
> > with or without the husbands knowledge or permission,
> > (or she liked to try it anyway)
>
> I imagine the main reason for choosing a brother-in-law or father-
> in-law was that there was a good chance of a resemblance to the
> putative father. Some women and maybe their husbands may also
> have been more comfortable if the children would inherit other
> things, such as kohen (priest) status in Judaism.

And few others may have been easily available,

Jan

Athel Cornish-Bowden <athel.cb@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 2023-03-25 17:28:46 +0000, J. J. Lodder said:
>
> > Athel Cornish-Bowden <athel.cb@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> On 2023-03-25 11:05:21 +0000, J. J. Lodder said:
> >>
> >>> bil...@shaw.ca <billvan@shaw.ca> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> On Friday, March 24, 2023 at 3:10:56?AM UTC-7, Athel Cornish-Bowden:
> >>>>> On 2023-03-24 09:39:38 +0000, J. J. Lodder said:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Bertel Lund Hansen <gade...@lundhansen.dk> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Den 23.03.2023 kl. 22.57 skrev J. J. Lodder:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> In case you are actually wondering, "orange" was the name of the
> >>>>>>>>> fruit before it became the name of a color.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> And after that the princes of Orange took the colour as their own,
> >>>>>>>> (with some help by Piet Hein)
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> What? Had Piet Hein something to do with that?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> It was Piet Hein's famous, but most inconsiderate ancestor,
> >>>>>> with precisely the same name.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Piet Hein has explained somewhere that it was most inconsiderate
> >>>>>> of his ancestor Piet Hein to die childless.
> >>>>>> You cannot demand much of an ancestor, he said,
> >>>>>> but the very least you can expect of him
> >>>>>> is to die while leaving some children,
> >>>>> My wife has that problem. One of her ancestors was the hero of the War
> >>>>> of the Pacific of 1979. He was also inconsiderate enough to die
> >>>>> childless (wifeless as well). Also an admiral.
> >>>>
> >>>> Zijn dade benne groot. Sung in the 1950s by Dutch children and by
> >>>> their parents in the evenings, after a cold genever/jenever or two.
> >>>
> >>> Perhaps still, but he may have become an un-person nowadays.
> >>> This is kind of strange, for Piet Hein was one of the few persons
> >>> in the 17th century who spoke out against slavery.
> >>>
> >>> Piet Hein captured a silver fleet
> >>> with 'Spaanse matten en appeltjes van Oranje' on board.
> >>> The 'appeltjes van oranje are obvious,
> >>> but 'Spaanse matten' are no longer recognised for what they were,
> >>> Spanish silver coins of eight real.
> >>> <https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spaanse_mat_(munt)>
> >>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_dollar>
> >>>
> >>> So Piet Hein captured what was to become silver American dollars,
> >>> a fleetload full of them.
> >>
> >> Galvarino Riveros Cárdenas didn't capture a fleetload of silver, but he
> >> captured the Huáscar, the pride of the Peruvian navy.
> >
> > An all British ship,
>
> Of course. I don't think the Peruvian shipbuilding industry was very
> developed (if at all). I have visited the Huáscar at Talcahuano: the
> thing that surprised me most was how *small* it is. Wikipedia gives its
> length as 58 m, but in my memory it is much smaller than that.

But it was quite advanced for its time,
with its turret with two very heavy guns.
She could make matchwood of any wooden warship.
And unlike USS Monitor she was seaworthy.

Unfortunately for her the Chileans had bought the latest
in British ironclad warships too, and more of them,
with even more throw weight,

Jan

On Sat, 25 Mar 2023 08:46:18 -0700 (PDT), Jerry Friedman
<jerry.friedman99@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Saturday, March 25, 2023 at 12:57:47?AM UTC-6, Peter Moylan wrote:
>> On 25/03/23 16:53, bil...@shaw.ca wrote:
>>
>> > There is a school of thought, which I find persuasive, that
>> > Marilyn Monroe remains famous/notorious because she was
>> > widely seen and exploited as a sex symbol.
>> A song from my school days:
>>
>> On top of old Smokey
>> Where nobody goes
>> Sat Marilyn Monroe
>> Without any clothes.
>...
>
>Is it possible that "Monroe" was accented on the first syllable, or
>were schoolchildren just making the name fit the tune.

I think "Marilyn Monroe sat" works better.

On 25-Mar-23 5:53, bil...@shaw.ca wrote:

> I do find some sympathy for MM that I don't have for her imitators,
> Jayne Mansfield, Mamie van Doren and others.

That is understandable, in light of the fact that Jayne Mansfield cannot
be considered human.

In defence of my statement I cite:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uf_qJRwM4CI

--
Sam Plusnet

On Saturday, March 25, 2023 at 1:25:45 AM UTC-6, Snidely wrote:
> Jerry Friedman suggested that ...
> > On Tuesday, March 21, 2023 at 10:24:41 AM UTC-6, TonyCooper wrote:
> >> On Tue, 21 Mar 2023 17:15:55 +0100, Bertel Lund Hansen
> >> <gade...@lundhansen.dk> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Den 21.03.2023 kl. 17.00 skrev Ken Blake:
> >>>
> >>>> However, leaving aside all the modern hair dye colors, the only names
> >>>> for colors of hair used to be black, brown, brunette, blonde, blond,
> >>>> platinum blonde, and red.
> >>>
> >>> In Danish there is one more colour, "commune blond" or "liverpaste" to
> >>> describe hair that is not blond and not brown (not a brunette either)..
> >>> It's not meant as a praise.
> >
> >> It may be what we in the US refer to as "dirty blond". The use has
> >> nothing to do with washing. Just color.
> >
> > Or "mousy brown" or "dull brown". To me, "dirty blond" has more yellow in it
> > than those colors.
>
> Watever happened to "dishwater blonde"?

I think it's lighter than mousy or dull brown.

> /dps "mousy seems old-fashioned to me"

Mr. or Ms. Ngram doesn't agree.

https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=mousy+brown+%2B+mousey+brown%2C+dishwater+blond%2Bdishwater+blonde&year_start=1800&year_end=2019&corpus=en-2019&smoothing=3

https://tinyurl.com/2ekz8ff3

--
Jerry Friedman

On 25/03/23 17:57, Peter Moylan wrote:
> On 25/03/23 16:53, bil...@shaw.ca wrote:
>
>> There is a school of thought, which I find persuasive, that
>> Marilyn Monroe remains famous/notorious because she was
>> widely seen and exploited as a sex symbol.
>
> A song from my school days:
>
> On top of old Smokey
> Where nobody goes
> Sat Marilyn Monroe
> Without any clothes.
>
> The remaining verses are too crude to quote here.

You might have wondered why I was reluctant to quote dirty words or
"adult themes". I don't have many taboos in that direction.

But this song was _artistically_ crude. The sort of thing where you tell
a would-be poet not to give up his day job. Of course, primary school
children are less discerning in that way.

--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org

On Sat, 25 Mar 2023 20:04:48 +0000, Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> wrote:

>On 25-Mar-23 5:53, bil...@shaw.ca wrote:
>
>> I do find some sympathy for MM that I don't have for her imitators,
>> Jayne Mansfield, Mamie van Doren and others.
>
>That is understandable, in light of the fact that Jayne Mansfield cannot
>be considered human.

Maybe she once was, but not any more.

>
>In defence of my statement I cite:
>
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uf_qJRwM4CI

On 25-Mar-23 19:49, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> Athel Cornish-Bowden <athel.cb@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On 2023-03-25 17:28:46 +0000, J. J. Lodder said:
>>
>>> Athel Cornish-Bowden <athel.cb@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 2023-03-25 11:05:21 +0000, J. J. Lodder said:
>>>>
>>>>> bil...@shaw.ca <billvan@shaw.ca> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Friday, March 24, 2023 at 3:10:56?AM UTC-7, Athel Cornish-Bowden:
>>>>>>> On 2023-03-24 09:39:38 +0000, J. J. Lodder said:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Bertel Lund Hansen <gade...@lundhansen.dk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Den 23.03.2023 kl. 22.57 skrev J. J. Lodder:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> In case you are actually wondering, "orange" was the name of the
>>>>>>>>>>> fruit before it became the name of a color.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> And after that the princes of Orange took the colour as their own,
>>>>>>>>>> (with some help by Piet Hein)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> What? Had Piet Hein something to do with that?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It was Piet Hein's famous, but most inconsiderate ancestor,
>>>>>>>> with precisely the same name.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Piet Hein has explained somewhere that it was most inconsiderate
>>>>>>>> of his ancestor Piet Hein to die childless.
>>>>>>>> You cannot demand much of an ancestor, he said,
>>>>>>>> but the very least you can expect of him
>>>>>>>> is to die while leaving some children,
>>>>>>> My wife has that problem. One of her ancestors was the hero of the War
>>>>>>> of the Pacific of 1979. He was also inconsiderate enough to die
>>>>>>> childless (wifeless as well). Also an admiral.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Zijn dade benne groot. Sung in the 1950s by Dutch children and by
>>>>>> their parents in the evenings, after a cold genever/jenever or two.
>>>>>
>>>>> Perhaps still, but he may have become an un-person nowadays.
>>>>> This is kind of strange, for Piet Hein was one of the few persons
>>>>> in the 17th century who spoke out against slavery.
>>>>>
>>>>> Piet Hein captured a silver fleet
>>>>> with 'Spaanse matten en appeltjes van Oranje' on board.
>>>>> The 'appeltjes van oranje are obvious,
>>>>> but 'Spaanse matten' are no longer recognised for what they were,
>>>>> Spanish silver coins of eight real.
>>>>> <https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spaanse_mat_(munt)>
>>>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_dollar>
>>>>>
>>>>> So Piet Hein captured what was to become silver American dollars,
>>>>> a fleetload full of them.
>>>>
>>>> Galvarino Riveros Cárdenas didn't capture a fleetload of silver, but he
>>>> captured the Huáscar, the pride of the Peruvian navy.
>>>
>>> An all British ship,
>>
>> Of course. I don't think the Peruvian shipbuilding industry was very
>> developed (if at all). I have visited the Huáscar at Talcahuano: the
>> thing that surprised me most was how *small* it is. Wikipedia gives its
>> length as 58 m, but in my memory it is much smaller than that.
>
> But it was quite advanced for its time,
> with its turret with two very heavy guns.
> She could make matchwood of any wooden warship.
> And unlike USS Monitor she was seaworthy.

She had to travel around 8,000 nautical miles[1] from the builder's
yard, so that was quite important.

[1] Oops. The Panama Canal wasn't available then, so add on a few
thousand extra nautical miles.

--
Sam Plusnet

On 2023-03-25 19:49:06 +0000, J. J. Lodder said:

> Athel Cornish-Bowden <athel.cb@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On 2023-03-25 17:28:46 +0000, J. J. Lodder said:

>>> Athel Cornish-Bowden <athel.cb@gmail.com> wrote:

[ … ]

>>>> Galvarino Riveros Cárdenas didn't capture a fleetload of silver, but he
>>>> captured the Huáscar, the pride of the Peruvian navy.
>>>
>>> An all British ship,
>>
>> Of course. I don't think the Peruvian shipbuilding industry was very
>> developed (if at all). I have visited the Huáscar at Talcahuano: the
>> thing that surprised me most was how *small* it is. Wikipedia gives its
>> length as 58 m, but in my memory it is much smaller than that.
>
> But it was quite advanced for its time,
> with its turret with two very heavy guns.
> She could make matchwood of any wooden warship.
> And unlike USS Monitor she was seaworthy.

Oh dear. I don't think Petey is going to like that.
>
> Unfortunately for her the Chileans had bought the latest
> in British ironclad warships too, and more of them,
> with even more throw weight,

--
Athel -- French and British, living in Marseilles for 36 years; mainly
in England until 1987.

On Friday, March 24, 2023 at 5:08:03 AM UTC-7, Paul Wolff wrote:
> On Fri, 24 Mar 2023, at 11:10:55, Athel Cornish-Bowden posted:
> >On 2023-03-24 09:39:38 +0000, J. J. Lodder said:
> >> Bertel Lund Hansen <gade...@lundhansen.dk> wrote:
> >>> Den 23.03.2023 kl. 22.57 skrev J. J. Lodder:
> >>>
> >>>>> In case you are actually wondering, "orange" was the name of the
> >>>>> fruit before it became the name of a color.
> >>>> And after that the princes of Orange took the colour as their own,
> >>>> (with some help by Piet Hein)
> >>> What? Had Piet Hein something to do with that?
> >> It was Piet Hein's famous, but most inconsiderate ancestor,
> >> with precisely the same name.
> >> Piet Hein has explained somewhere that it was most inconsiderate
> >> of his ancestor Piet Hein to die childless.
> >> You cannot demand much of an ancestor, he said,
> >> but the very least you can expect of him
> >> is to die while leaving some children,
> >
> >My wife has that problem. One of her ancestors was the hero of the War
> >of the Pacific of 1979. He was also inconsiderate enough to die
> >childless (wifeless as well). Also an admiral.
> >
> I think I can do better than that. Family lore says one of my (our)
> ancestors was the presumably celibate Cardinal Archbishop of Canterbury
> who helped negotiate Magna Carta and is immured in a wall of the
> cathedral. His feet, or possibly his head, project(s).
>
> The story must have grown greatly through the generations. Whether they
> were his generations or not, no-one now can say. I'm not even sure that
> DNA testing on his bone residues would be useful if he were merely a
> remotely great uncle. Wikip mentions two brothers: one was another
> archbishop, the other died childless. Work it out.
> --
If only the one who was not an archbishop died childless, then both
archbishops had children!

Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> wrote:

> On 25-Mar-23 19:49, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> > Athel Cornish-Bowden <athel.cb@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> On 2023-03-25 17:28:46 +0000, J. J. Lodder said:
> >>
> >>> Athel Cornish-Bowden <athel.cb@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> On 2023-03-25 11:05:21 +0000, J. J. Lodder said:
> >>>>
> >>>>> bil...@shaw.ca <billvan@shaw.ca> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> On Friday, March 24, 2023 at 3:10:56?AM UTC-7, Athel Cornish-Bowden:
> >>>>>>> On 2023-03-24 09:39:38 +0000, J. J. Lodder said:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Bertel Lund Hansen <gade...@lundhansen.dk> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Den 23.03.2023 kl. 22.57 skrev J. J. Lodder:
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> In case you are actually wondering, "orange" was the name of the
> >>>>>>>>>>> fruit before it became the name of a color.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> And after that the princes of Orange took the colour as their own,
> >>>>>>>>>> (with some help by Piet Hein)
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> What? Had Piet Hein something to do with that?
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> It was Piet Hein's famous, but most inconsiderate ancestor,
> >>>>>>>> with precisely the same name.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Piet Hein has explained somewhere that it was most inconsiderate
> >>>>>>>> of his ancestor Piet Hein to die childless.
> >>>>>>>> You cannot demand much of an ancestor, he said,
> >>>>>>>> but the very least you can expect of him
> >>>>>>>> is to die while leaving some children,
> >>>>>>> My wife has that problem. One of her ancestors was the hero of the War
> >>>>>>> of the Pacific of 1979. He was also inconsiderate enough to die
> >>>>>>> childless (wifeless as well). Also an admiral.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Zijn dade benne groot. Sung in the 1950s by Dutch children and by
> >>>>>> their parents in the evenings, after a cold genever/jenever or two.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Perhaps still, but he may have become an un-person nowadays.
> >>>>> This is kind of strange, for Piet Hein was one of the few persons
> >>>>> in the 17th century who spoke out against slavery.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Piet Hein captured a silver fleet
> >>>>> with 'Spaanse matten en appeltjes van Oranje' on board.
> >>>>> The 'appeltjes van oranje are obvious,
> >>>>> but 'Spaanse matten' are no longer recognised for what they were,
> >>>>> Spanish silver coins of eight real.
> >>>>> <https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spaanse_mat_(munt)>
> >>>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_dollar>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> So Piet Hein captured what was to become silver American dollars,
> >>>>> a fleetload full of them.
> >>>>
> >>>> Galvarino Riveros Cárdenas didn't capture a fleetload of silver, but he
> >>>> captured the Huáscar, the pride of the Peruvian navy.
> >>>
> >>> An all British ship,
> >>
> >> Of course. I don't think the Peruvian shipbuilding industry was very
> >> developed (if at all). I have visited the Huáscar at Talcahuano: the
> >> thing that surprised me most was how *small* it is. Wikipedia gives its
> >> length as 58 m, but in my memory it is much smaller than that.
> >
> > But it was quite advanced for its time,
> > with its turret with two very heavy guns.
> > She could make matchwood of any wooden warship.
> > And unlike USS Monitor she was seaworthy.
>
> She had to travel around 8,000 nautical miles[1] from the builder's
> yard, so that was quite important.

Sailing no doubt.
Coal was either not available, or very expensive.
She may have gone round the easy way,
by way of the Cape of Good Hope.

> [1] Oops. The Panama Canal wasn't available then, so add on a few
> thousand extra nautical miles.

If so, add some more extra thousand miles,

Jan

On Sun, 26 Mar 2023 10:55:57 +0200, nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J.
Lodder) wrote:

>Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> wrote:
>
>> On 25-Mar-23 19:49, J. J. Lodder wrote:
>> > Athel Cornish-Bowden <athel.cb@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >> On 2023-03-25 17:28:46 +0000, J. J. Lodder said:
>> >>
>> >>> Athel Cornish-Bowden <athel.cb@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>> On 2023-03-25 11:05:21 +0000, J. J. Lodder said:
>> >>>>
>> >>>>> bil...@shaw.ca <billvan@shaw.ca> wrote:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>> On Friday, March 24, 2023 at 3:10:56?AM UTC-7, Athel Cornish-Bowden:
>> >>>>>>> On 2023-03-24 09:39:38 +0000, J. J. Lodder said:
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> Bertel Lund Hansen <gade...@lundhansen.dk> wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> Den 23.03.2023 kl. 22.57 skrev J. J. Lodder:
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>> In case you are actually wondering, "orange" was the name of the
>> >>>>>>>>>>> fruit before it became the name of a color.
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> And after that the princes of Orange took the colour as their own,
>> >>>>>>>>>> (with some help by Piet Hein)
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> What? Had Piet Hein something to do with that?
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> It was Piet Hein's famous, but most inconsiderate ancestor,
>> >>>>>>>> with precisely the same name.
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> Piet Hein has explained somewhere that it was most inconsiderate
>> >>>>>>>> of his ancestor Piet Hein to die childless.
>> >>>>>>>> You cannot demand much of an ancestor, he said,
>> >>>>>>>> but the very least you can expect of him
>> >>>>>>>> is to die while leaving some children,
>> >>>>>>> My wife has that problem. One of her ancestors was the hero of the War
>> >>>>>>> of the Pacific of 1979. He was also inconsiderate enough to die
>> >>>>>>> childless (wifeless as well). Also an admiral.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Zijn dade benne groot. Sung in the 1950s by Dutch children and by
>> >>>>>> their parents in the evenings, after a cold genever/jenever or two.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Perhaps still, but he may have become an un-person nowadays.
>> >>>>> This is kind of strange, for Piet Hein was one of the few persons
>> >>>>> in the 17th century who spoke out against slavery.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Piet Hein captured a silver fleet
>> >>>>> with 'Spaanse matten en appeltjes van Oranje' on board.
>> >>>>> The 'appeltjes van oranje are obvious,
>> >>>>> but 'Spaanse matten' are no longer recognised for what they were,
>> >>>>> Spanish silver coins of eight real.
>> >>>>> <https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spaanse_mat_(munt)>
>> >>>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_dollar>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> So Piet Hein captured what was to become silver American dollars,
>> >>>>> a fleetload full of them.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Galvarino Riveros Cárdenas didn't capture a fleetload of silver, but he
>> >>>> captured the Huáscar, the pride of the Peruvian navy.
>> >>>
>> >>> An all British ship,
>> >>
>> >> Of course. I don't think the Peruvian shipbuilding industry was very
>> >> developed (if at all). I have visited the Huáscar at Talcahuano: the
>> >> thing that surprised me most was how *small* it is. Wikipedia gives its
>> >> length as 58 m, but in my memory it is much smaller than that.
>> >
>> > But it was quite advanced for its time,
>> > with its turret with two very heavy guns.
>> > She could make matchwood of any wooden warship.
>> > And unlike USS Monitor she was seaworthy.
>>
>> She had to travel around 8,000 nautical miles[1] from the builder's
>> yard, so that was quite important.
>
>Sailing no doubt.
>Coal was either not available, or very expensive.
>She may have gone round the easy way,
>by way of the Cape of Good Hope.

"Easy way" is the sense that it's usually less stormy than Cape Horn,
but considerably harder in the sense of its being a greater distance,
and therefore greater risk of storms during the longer time it would
take.

I've never gone around the Cape of Good Hope, but I once went around
Cape Horn on a cruise ship. It's wasn't at all stormy that day and it
was very easy.

On 26-Mar-23 6:36, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> On 2023-03-25 19:49:06 +0000, J. J. Lodder said:
>
>> Athel Cornish-Bowden <athel.cb@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2023-03-25 17:28:46 +0000, J. J. Lodder said:
>
>>>> Athel Cornish-Bowden <athel.cb@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> [ … ]
>
>>>>> Galvarino Riveros Cárdenas didn't capture a fleetload of silver,
>>>>> but he
>>>>> captured the Huáscar, the pride of the Peruvian navy.
>>>>
>>>> An all British ship,
>>>
>>> Of course. I don't think the Peruvian shipbuilding industry was very
>>> developed (if at all). I have visited the Huáscar at Talcahuano: the
>>> thing that surprised me most was how *small* it is. Wikipedia gives its
>>> length as 58 m, but in my memory it is much smaller than that.
>>
>> But it was quite advanced for its time,
>> with its turret with two very heavy guns.
>> She could make matchwood of any wooden warship.
>> And unlike USS Monitor she was seaworthy.
>
> Oh dear. I don't think Petey is going to like that.

Horses for courses again. Those American monitors mostly operated in
rivers and estuaries. If you don't have to go far away from land,
sea-keeping is less of a factor in the design.

--
Sam Plusnet

Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com> wrote:

> On Sun, 26 Mar 2023 10:55:57 +0200, nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J.
> Lodder) wrote:
>
> >Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> wrote:
> >
> >> On 25-Mar-23 19:49, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> >> > Athel Cornish-Bowden <athel.cb@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> On 2023-03-25 17:28:46 +0000, J. J. Lodder said:
> >> >>
> >> >>> Athel Cornish-Bowden <athel.cb@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >>>
> >> >>>> On 2023-03-25 11:05:21 +0000, J. J. Lodder said:
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>>> bil...@shaw.ca <billvan@shaw.ca> wrote:
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>>> On Friday, March 24, 2023 at 3:10:56?AM UTC-7, Athel Cornish-Bowden:
> >> >>>>>>> On 2023-03-24 09:39:38 +0000, J. J. Lodder said:
> >> >>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>> Bertel Lund Hansen <gade...@lundhansen.dk> wrote:
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>> Den 23.03.2023 kl. 22.57 skrev J. J. Lodder:
> >> >>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> In case you are actually wondering, "orange" was the name
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> of the fruit before it became the name of a color.
> >> >>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>> And after that the princes of Orange took the colour as
> >> >>>>>>>>>> their own, (with some help by Piet Hein)
> >> >>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>> What? Had Piet Hein something to do with that?
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>> It was Piet Hein's famous, but most inconsiderate ancestor,
> >> >>>>>>>> with precisely the same name.
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>> Piet Hein has explained somewhere that it was most inconsiderate
> >> >>>>>>>> of his ancestor Piet Hein to die childless.
> >> >>>>>>>> You cannot demand much of an ancestor, he said,
> >> >>>>>>>> but the very least you can expect of him
> >> >>>>>>>> is to die while leaving some children,
> >> >>>>>>> My wife has that problem. One of her ancestors was the hero of
> >> >>>>>>> the War of the Pacific of 1979. He was also inconsiderate
> >> >>>>>>> enough to die childless (wifeless as well). Also an admiral.
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> Zijn dade benne groot. Sung in the 1950s by Dutch children and by
> >> >>>>>> their parents in the evenings, after a cold genever/jenever or two.
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> Perhaps still, but he may have become an un-person nowadays.
> >> >>>>> This is kind of strange, for Piet Hein was one of the few persons
> >> >>>>> in the 17th century who spoke out against slavery.
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> Piet Hein captured a silver fleet
> >> >>>>> with 'Spaanse matten en appeltjes van Oranje' on board.
> >> >>>>> The 'appeltjes van oranje are obvious,
> >> >>>>> but 'Spaanse matten' are no longer recognised for what they were,
> >> >>>>> Spanish silver coins of eight real.
> >> >>>>> <https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spaanse_mat_(munt)>
> >> >>>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_dollar>
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> So Piet Hein captured what was to become silver American dollars,
> >> >>>>> a fleetload full of them.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> Galvarino Riveros Cárdenas didn't capture a fleetload of silver,
> >> >>>> but he captured the Huáscar, the pride of the Peruvian navy.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> An all British ship,
> >> >>
> >> >> Of course. I don't think the Peruvian shipbuilding industry was very
> >> >> developed (if at all). I have visited the Huáscar at Talcahuano: the
> >> >> thing that surprised me most was how *small* it is. Wikipedia gives its
> >> >> length as 58 m, but in my memory it is much smaller than that.
> >> >
> >> > But it was quite advanced for its time,
> >> > with its turret with two very heavy guns.
> >> > She could make matchwood of any wooden warship.
> >> > And unlike USS Monitor she was seaworthy.
> >>
> >> She had to travel around 8,000 nautical miles[1] from the builder's
> >> yard, so that was quite important.
> >
> >Sailing no doubt.
> >Coal was either not available, or very expensive.
> >She may have gone round the easy way,
> >by way of the Cape of Good Hope.
>
>
> "Easy way" is the sense that it's usually less stormy than Cape Horn,
> but considerably harder in the sense of its being a greater distance,
> and therefore greater risk of storms during the longer time it would
> take.
>
> I've never gone around the Cape of Good Hope, but I once went around
> Cape Horn on a cruise ship. It's wasn't at all stormy that day and it
> was very easy.

It may be easy, if you have a big ship, with a big engine,
and try it in summer.
In a sailing ship you have to beat up against a strong wind,
and against the strong current too, in quite unpredictable weather.
It may take weeks, even with a fast clipper ship.

In a ship like Huasca (very heavy hull, relatively small rig)
it would be wise to avoid it, I guess,

Jan

Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> wrote:

> On 26-Mar-23 6:36, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> > On 2023-03-25 19:49:06 +0000, J. J. Lodder said:
> >
> >> Athel Cornish-Bowden <athel.cb@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> On 2023-03-25 17:28:46 +0000, J. J. Lodder said:
> >
> >>>> Athel Cornish-Bowden <athel.cb@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > [ … ]
> >
> >>>>> Galvarino Riveros Cárdenas didn't capture a fleetload of silver,
> >>>>> but he
> >>>>> captured the Huáscar, the pride of the Peruvian navy.
> >>>>
> >>>> An all British ship,
> >>>
> >>> Of course. I don't think the Peruvian shipbuilding industry was very
> >>> developed (if at all). I have visited the Huáscar at Talcahuano: the
> >>> thing that surprised me most was how *small* it is. Wikipedia gives its
> >>> length as 58 m, but in my memory it is much smaller than that.
> >>
> >> But it was quite advanced for its time,
> >> with its turret with two very heavy guns.
> >> She could make matchwood of any wooden warship.
> >> And unlike USS Monitor she was seaworthy.
> >
> > Oh dear. I don't think Petey is going to like that.
>
> Horses for courses again. Those American monitors mostly operated in
> rivers and estuaries. If you don't have to go far away from land,
> sea-keeping is less of a factor in the design.

Well, USS Monitor did sink not very far from land,

Jan

On Sunday, March 26, 2023 at 1:36:33 AM UTC-4, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> On 2023-03-25 19:49:06 +0000, J. J. Lodder said:
>
> > Athel Cornish-Bowden <athe...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> On 2023-03-25 17:28:46 +0000, J. J. Lodder said:
>
> >>> Athel Cornish-Bowden <athe...@gmail.com> wrote:
> [ … ]
> >>>> Galvarino Riveros Cárdenas didn't capture a fleetload of silver, but he
> >>>> captured the Huáscar, the pride of the Peruvian navy.
> >>>
> >>> An all British ship,
> >>
> >> Of course. I don't think the Peruvian shipbuilding industry was very
> >> developed (if at all). I have visited the Huáscar at Talcahuano: the
> >> thing that surprised me most was how *small* it is. Wikipedia gives its
> >> length as 58 m, but in my memory it is much smaller than that.
> >
> > But it was quite advanced for its time,
> > with its turret with two very heavy guns.
> > She could make matchwood of any wooden warship.
> > And unlike USS Monitor she was seaworthy.
>
> Oh dear. I don't think Petey is going to like that.

No one would fault that. New concepts in shipping are never perfect. Russia still can't seem to perfect an aircraft carrier. Japan did that in 1921..

bruce bowser <bruce1.9bowser@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sunday, March 26, 2023 at 1:36:33?AM UTC-4, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> > On 2023-03-25 19:49:06 +0000, J. J. Lodder said:
> >
> > > Athel Cornish-Bowden <athe...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >> On 2023-03-25 17:28:46 +0000, J. J. Lodder said:
> >
> > >>> Athel Cornish-Bowden <athe...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > [ … ]
> > >>>> Galvarino Riveros Cárdenas didn't capture a fleetload of silver, but he
> > >>>> captured the Huáscar, the pride of the Peruvian navy.
> > >>>
> > >>> An all British ship,
> > >>
> > >> Of course. I don't think the Peruvian shipbuilding industry was very
> > >> developed (if at all). I have visited the Huáscar at Talcahuano: the
> > >> thing that surprised me most was how *small* it is. Wikipedia gives its
> > >> length as 58 m, but in my memory it is much smaller than that.
> > >
> > > But it was quite advanced for its time,
> > > with its turret with two very heavy guns.
> > > She could make matchwood of any wooden warship.
> > > And unlike USS Monitor she was seaworthy.
> >
> > Oh dear. I don't think Petey is going to like that.
>
> No one would fault that. New concepts in shipping are never perfect.
> Russia still can't seem to perfect an aircraft carrier. Japan did that in
> 1921.

Russia doesn't have one, and never had one either.
Their 'Admiral Kuznetsov' is classified as:
an 'aircraft carrying cruiser', so not as an 'aircraft carrier'.
The USA has not protested that classification,
and other naval powers haven't either.

Words -are- important here.
Being a 'cruiser' she is allowed to pass the Bosporus
under the terms of the Montreux treaty.
Which is just what she did when Ukraine became independent,
to prevent Ukraine from claiming her.

Jan

The proposition by itself is preposterous. There will always be something to motivate bias that simulates elitism, racism, ethnicity, religion, values, etcetera adnauseum.