https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technology/british-scientists-discover-ultramassive-black-hole-30bn-times-the-mass-of-the-sun/ar-AA19czlF?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=5e8a29d3b1a348a7926459595503200d&ei=13

do you think you "feel" anything or do you just come apart?

On Wed, 29 Mar 2023 02:40:16 -0700 (PDT)
Boso deniro <bosodediro@gmail.com> wrote:

> https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technology/british-scientists-discover-ultramassive-black-hole-30bn-times-the-mass-of-the-sun/ar-AA19czlF?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=5e8a29d3b1a348a7926459595503200d&ei=13
>
> do you think you "feel" anything or do you just come apart?
>
Give it a go and let us know from the other side.

--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.

On Wednesday, March 29, 2023 at 2:42:54 AM UTC-7, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:
> On Wed, 29 Mar 2023 02:40:16 -0700 (PDT)
> Boso deniro <bosod...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technology/british-scientists-discover-ultramassive-black-hole-30bn-times-the-mass-of-the-sun/ar-AA19czlF?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=5e8a29d3b1a348a7926459595503200d&ei=13
> >
> > do you think you "feel" anything or do you just come apart?
> >
> Give it a go and let us know from the other side.
>
> --
> Bah, and indeed Humbug.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technology/a-cosmic-beam-from-an-explosion-billions-of-light-years-away-blinded-space-instruments/ar-AA19d6g3?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=bfefb8ed926d4a9d80e03aa70d871eb5&ei=13

"Kerr-Mudd, John" <admin@127.0.0.1> writes:
> On Wed, 29 Mar 2023 02:40:16 -0700 (PDT) Boso deniro <bosodediro@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technology/british-scientists-discover-ultramassive-black-hole-30bn-times-the-mass-of-the-sun/ar-AA19czlF?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=5e8a29d3b1a348a7926459595503200d&ei=13
>>
>> do you think you "feel" anything or do you just come apart?
>
> Give it a go and let us know from the other side.

Supermassive black holes can have Schwarzschild radii so large that
you particularly notice as you crossed the event horizon. The fact
that you'd passed through the firewall, and had been dragged into
a non-conic orbit as you approached would make you aware of the
fact one was near, but the spaghettification would not be noticed
at all.

However, non-experimental science is naval gazing; I agree, he should
give it a go. I'm not expecting anything that contradicts what I've
just posted to be reported back, certainly.

Phil
--
We are no longer hunters and nomads. No longer awed and frightened, as we have
gained some understanding of the world in which we live. As such, we can cast
aside childish remnants from the dawn of our civilization.
-- NotSanguine on SoylentNews, after Eugen Weber in /The Western Tradition/

On Wednesday, March 29, 2023 at 3:48:14 PM UTC-6, Phil Carmody wrote:
> "Kerr-Mudd, John" <ad...@127.0.0.1> writes:
> > On Wed, 29 Mar 2023 02:40:16 -0700 (PDT) Boso deniro <bosod...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technology/british-scientists-discover-ultramassive-black-hole-30bn-times-the-mass-of-the-sun/ar-AA19czlF?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=5e8a29d3b1a348a7926459595503200d&ei=13
> >>
> >> do you think you "feel" anything or do you just come apart?
> >
> > Give it a go and let us know from the other side.

> Supermassive black holes can have Schwarzschild radii so large that
> you

don't
> particularly notice as you crossed the event horizon. The fact
> that you'd passed through the firewall, and had been dragged into
> a non-conic orbit as you approached would make you aware of the
> fact one was near, but the spaghettification would not be noticed
> at all.

I agree that there wouldn't be spaghettification, but I don't think you'd
notice passing the event horizon in any scenario.

Also, the article was about a 30-solar-mass black hole, and that would
spaghettify you good and proper. The part before you died would feel
sort of like the rack, then worse.

> However, non-experimental science is naval

Weren't you saying there aren't enough Oy!s here?

> gazing; I agree, he should
> give it a go. I'm not expecting anything that contradicts what I've
> just posted to be reported back, certainly.

Can't argue with that.

--
Jerry Friedman

On 30/03/23 09:19, Jerry Friedman wrote:

> Also, the article was about a 30-solar-mass black hole, and that would
> spaghettify you good and proper. The part before you died would feel
> sort of like the rack, then worse.

ObSF: Neutron Star, by Larry Niven.

--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org

On Wednesday, March 29, 2023 at 6:55:44 PM UTC-6, Peter Moylan wrote:
> On 30/03/23 09:19, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>
> > Also, the article was about a 30-solar-mass black hole, and that would
> > spaghettify you good and proper. The part before you died would feel
> > sort of like the rack, then worse.

> ObSF: Neutron Star, by Larry Niven.

Also relevant to this thread: "A Galaxy Called Rome", by Barry Malzberg.

/Gateway/ et seqq., by Fredrik Pohl. I thought the sequels were in decreasing
order of quality.

--
Jerry Friedman

On Wednesday, March 29, 2023 at 6:21:43 PM UTC-7, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> On Wednesday, March 29, 2023 at 6:55:44 PM UTC-6, Peter Moylan wrote:
> > On 30/03/23 09:19, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> >
> > > Also, the article was about a 30-solar-mass black hole, and that would
> > > spaghettify you good and proper. The part before you died would feel
> > > sort of like the rack, then worse.
>
> > ObSF: Neutron Star, by Larry Niven.
> Also relevant to this thread: "A Galaxy Called Rome", by Barry Malzberg.
>
> /Gateway/ et seqq., by Fredrik Pohl. I thought the sequels were in decreasing
> order of quality.
>
They usually are, when the first book is one of the great ones. But when the original
is as strong as the first Gateway/Heechee book, it can bear the weight of a few
lesser sequels. Time to read that series again. And then maybe Clarke's Rama books.

bill

On Wednesday, March 29, 2023 at 3:19:06 PM UTC-7, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> On Wednesday, March 29, 2023 at 3:48:14 PM UTC-6, Phil Carmody wrote:
> > "Kerr-Mudd, John" <ad...@127.0.0.1> writes:
> > > On Wed, 29 Mar 2023 02:40:16 -0700 (PDT) Boso deniro <bosod...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >> https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technology/british-scientists-discover-ultramassive-black-hole-30bn-times-the-mass-of-the-sun/ar-AA19czlF?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=5e8a29d3b1a348a7926459595503200d&ei=13
> > >>
> > >> do you think you "feel" anything or do you just come apart?
> > >
> > > Give it a go and let us know from the other side.
>
> > Supermassive black holes can have Schwarzschild radii so large that
> > you
> don't
> > particularly notice as you crossed the event horizon. The fact
> > that you'd passed through the firewall, and had been dragged into
> > a non-conic orbit as you approached would make you aware of the
> > fact one was near, but the spaghettification would not be noticed
> > at all.
> I agree that there wouldn't be spaghettification, but I don't think you'd
> notice passing the event horizon in any scenario.
>
> Also, the article was about a 30-solar-mass black hole, and that would
> spaghettify you good and proper. The part before you died would feel
> sort of like the rack, then worse.
> > However, non-experimental science is naval
> Weren't you saying there aren't enough Oy!s here?
> > gazing; I agree, he should
> > give it a go. I'm not expecting anything that contradicts what I've
> > just posted to be reported back, certainly.
> Can't argue with that.
>
> --
> Jerry Friedman

Schwarzschild radii and "spaghettification" eh? -- couldn't have said it better myself -- sort of reminds me of the puns on the marriage between Fairchild Camera and Schlumberger producing the stillborn corporate entity otherwise known as the "Sclumber-child".

On Wed, 29 Mar 2023 22:56:08 -0700 (PDT)
"bil...@shaw.ca" <billvan@shaw.ca> wrote:

> On Wednesday, March 29, 2023 at 6:21:43 PM UTC-7, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> > On Wednesday, March 29, 2023 at 6:55:44 PM UTC-6, Peter Moylan wrote:
> > > On 30/03/23 09:19, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> > >
> > > > Also, the article was about a 30-solar-mass black hole, and that would
> > > > spaghettify you good and proper. The part before you died would feel
> > > > sort of like the rack, then worse.
> >
> > > ObSF: Neutron Star, by Larry Niven.
> > Also relevant to this thread: "A Galaxy Called Rome", by Barry Malzberg.
> >
> > /Gateway/ et seqq., by Fredrik Pohl. I thought the sequels were in decreasing
> > order of quality.
> >
> They usually are, when the first book is one of the great ones. But when the original
> is as strong as the first Gateway/Heechee book, it can bear the weight of a few
> lesser sequels. Time to read that series again. And then maybe Clarke's Rama books.
>
Might be just me, but Rama was a set of mysteries which I wanted to
see answers to; but they weren't resolved, AFAIR.

--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.

Kerr-Mudd, John <admin@127.0.0.1> wrote:

> On Wed, 29 Mar 2023 02:40:16 -0700 (PDT)
> Boso deniro <bosodediro@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technology/british-scientists-discover-ultram
assive-black-hole-30bn-times-the-mass-of-the-sun/ar-AA19czlF?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=5e8a29d3b1a348a7926459595503200d&ei=13
> >
> > do you think you "feel" anything or do you just come apart?
> >
> Give it a go and let us know from the other side.

"Can't be too bad." "I know of no one who has come back to complain
about it." (Le Chat)

Jan

On 30/03/2023 00:19, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> On Wednesday, March 29, 2023 at 3:48:14 PM UTC-6, Phil Carmody wrote:
>> "Kerr-Mudd, John" <ad...@127.0.0.1> writes:
>>> On Wed, 29 Mar 2023 02:40:16 -0700 (PDT) Boso deniro <bosod...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technology/british-scientists-discover-ultramassive-black-hole-30bn-times-the-mass-of-the-sun/ar-AA19czlF?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=5e8a29d3b1a348a7926459595503200d&ei=13
>>>>
>>>> do you think you "feel" anything or do you just come apart?
>>>
>>> Give it a go and let us know from the other side.
>
>> Supermassive black holes can have Schwarzschild radii so large that
>> you
>
> don't
>
>> particularly notice as you crossed the event horizon. The fact
>> that you'd passed through the firewall, and had been dragged into
>> a non-conic orbit as you approached would make you aware of the
>> fact one was near, but the spaghettification would not be noticed
>> at all.
>
> I agree that there wouldn't be spaghettification, but I don't think you'd
> notice passing the event horizon in any scenario.
>
> Also, the article was about a 30-solar-mass black hole, and that would
> spaghettify you good and proper. The part before you died would feel
> sort of like the rack, then worse.
>
>> However, non-experimental science is naval
>
> Weren't you saying there aren't enough Oy!s here?
>

"Naval gazing" is what Nelson used to do during the battle of Trafalgar.

On 30/03/23 16:56, bil...@shaw.ca wrote:
> On Wednesday, March 29, 2023 at 6:21:43 PM UTC-7, Jerry Friedman
> wrote:
>> On Wednesday, March 29, 2023 at 6:55:44 PM UTC-6, Peter Moylan
>> wrote:
>>> On 30/03/23 09:19, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>>>
>>>> Also, the article was about a 30-solar-mass black hole, and
>>>> that would spaghettify you good and proper. The part before you
>>>> died would feel sort of like the rack, then worse.
>>
>>> ObSF: Neutron Star, by Larry Niven.
>> Also relevant to this thread: "A Galaxy Called Rome", by Barry
>> Malzberg.
>>
>> /Gateway/ et seqq., by Fredrik Pohl. I thought the sequels were in
>> decreasing order of quality.
>>
> They usually are, when the first book is one of the great ones. But
> when the original is as strong as the first Gateway/Heechee book, it
> can bear the weight of a few lesser sequels. Time to read that series
> again. And then maybe Clarke's Rama books.

The first Rama book was OK, but spoilt by having an inconclusive ending.
The sequels were seriously disappointing.

Recently I was reading Dune, by Frank Herbert, for the first time in
fifty years. On my first reading I was struck by the physical
background: the desert, the worms, the spice, etc. This time around I
realised that it was really about a battle between enemies, propped up
by a rather implausible religious background. Lots of fantasy writers
seem to like the idea of a future society that has deteriorated into a
sort of mediaeval intrigue.

Still, Dune deserves a prize for being so much better than all of its
sequels, which were plain boring. It rivals Riverworld for producing so
many disappointing sequels.

--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org

On Thursday, March 30, 2023 at 2:16:25 AM UTC-6, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:
> On Wed, 29 Mar 2023 22:56:08 -0700 (PDT)
> "bil...@shaw.ca" <bil...@shaw.ca> wrote:
>
> > On Wednesday, March 29, 2023 at 6:21:43 PM UTC-7, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, March 29, 2023 at 6:55:44 PM UTC-6, Peter Moylan wrote:
> > > > On 30/03/23 09:19, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Also, the article was about a 30-solar-mass black hole, and that would
> > > > > spaghettify you good and proper. The part before you died would feel
> > > > > sort of like the rack, then worse.
> > >
> > > > ObSF: Neutron Star, by Larry Niven.
> > > Also relevant to this thread: "A Galaxy Called Rome", by Barry Malzberg.
> > >
> > > /Gateway/ et seqq., by Fredrik Pohl. I thought the sequels were in decreasing
> > > order of quality.
> > >
> > They usually are, when the first book is one of the great ones. But when the original
> > is as strong as the first Gateway/Heechee book, it can bear the weight of a few
> > lesser sequels.

I'll go along with that.

> > Time to read that series again. And then maybe Clarke's Rama books.

> Might be just me, but Rama was a set of mysteries which I wanted to
> see answers to; but they weren't resolved, AFAIR.

I can't even remember what was resolved, just that the writing was so
bad and there were so many bad decisions--seriously, a handsome
prince?

--
Jerry Friedman

On Thursday, March 30, 2023 at 3:36:25 AM UTC-6, Peter Moylan wrote:
> On 30/03/23 16:56, bil...@shaw.ca wrote:
> > On Wednesday, March 29, 2023 at 6:21:43 PM UTC-7, Jerry Friedman
> > wrote:
> >> On Wednesday, March 29, 2023 at 6:55:44 PM UTC-6, Peter Moylan
> >> wrote:
> >>> On 30/03/23 09:19, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Also, the article was about a 30-solar-mass black hole, and
> >>>> that would spaghettify you good and proper. The part before you
> >>>> died would feel sort of like the rack, then worse.
> >>
> >>> ObSF: Neutron Star, by Larry Niven.
> >> Also relevant to this thread: "A Galaxy Called Rome", by Barry
> >> Malzberg.
> >>
> >> /Gateway/ et seqq., by Fredrik Pohl. I thought the sequels were in
> >> decreasing order of quality.
> >>
> > They usually are, when the first book is one of the great ones. But
> > when the original is as strong as the first Gateway/Heechee book, it
> > can bear the weight of a few lesser sequels. Time to read that series
> > again. And then maybe Clarke's Rama books.

> The first Rama book was OK, but spoilt by having an inconclusive ending.
> The sequels were seriously disappointing.

I thought the first one was excellent, including the ending.

> Recently I was reading Dune, by Frank Herbert, for the first time in
> fifty years. On my first reading I was struck by the physical
> background: the desert, the worms, the spice, etc. This time around I
> realised that it was really about a battle between enemies, propped up
> by a rather implausible religious background.

Also about the Destined One who isn't entirely happy with his destiny.
And the physical background is certainly an important part of the book.

What did you find implausible about the religious background?

> Lots of fantasy writers
> seem to like the idea of a future society that has deteriorated into a
> sort of mediaeval intrigue.

Indeed.
> Still, Dune deserves a prize for being so much better than all of its
> sequels, which were plain boring. It rivals Riverworld for producing so
> many disappointing sequels.

Have you tried /The World of Time/?

--
Jerry Friedman

Jerry Friedman <jerry.friedman99@gmail.com> writes:
> On Wednesday, March 29, 2023 at 3:48:14 PM UTC-6, Phil Carmody wrote:
>> "Kerr-Mudd, John" <ad...@127.0.0.1> writes:
>> > On Wed, 29 Mar 2023 02:40:16 -0700 (PDT) Boso deniro
>> > <bosod...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >> https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technology/british-scientists-discover-ultramassive-black-hole-30bn-times-the-mass-of-the-sun/ar-AA19czlF?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=5e8a29d3b1a348a7926459595503200d&ei=13
>> >>
>> >> do you think you "feel" anything or do you just come apart?
>> >
>> > Give it a go and let us know from the other side.
>
>> Supermassive black holes can have Schwarzschild radii so large that
>> you
>
> don't

Ack. Thank you.

>> particularly notice as you crossed the event horizon. The fact
>> that you'd passed through the firewall, and had been dragged into
>> a non-conic orbit as you approached would make you aware of the
>> fact one was near, but the spaghettification would not be noticed
>> at all.
>
> I agree that there wouldn't be spaghettification, but I don't think you'd
> notice passing the event horizon in any scenario.
>
> Also, the article was about a 30-solar-mass black hole, and that would
> spaghettify you good and proper. The part before you died would feel
> sort of like the rack, then worse.
>
>> However, non-experimental science is naval
>
> Weren't you saying there aren't enough Oy!s here?

Ack.

I do remember not just hesitating but even incorrecting myself
as I typed that. It was late. Oy was deserved. Thank you.

>> gazing; I agree, he should
>> give it a go. I'm not expecting anything that contradicts what I've
>> just posted to be reported back, certainly.
>
> Can't argue with that.

And back to your regular scheduled (spronounced /sk/...) whatevers.

Phil
--
We are no longer hunters and nomads. No longer awed and frightened, as we have
gained some understanding of the world in which we live. As such, we can cast
aside childish remnants from the dawn of our civilization.
-- NotSanguine on SoylentNews, after Eugen Weber in /The Western Tradition/

On Thursday, March 30, 2023 at 11:41:23 AM UTC-6, Phil Carmody wrote:
> Jerry Friedman <jerry.fr...@gmail.com> writes:
> > On Wednesday, March 29, 2023 at 3:48:14 PM UTC-6, Phil Carmody wrote: ...

> >> However, non-experimental science is naval
> >
> > Weren't you saying there aren't enough Oy!s here?

> Ack.
>
> I do remember not just hesitating but even incorrecting myself
> as I typed that. It was late. Oy was deserved. Thank you.

Looking forward to a return of the favor.

> >> gazing; I agree, he should give it a go.
....

--
Jerry Friedman

On 30-Mar-23 10:22, occam wrote:
> On 30/03/2023 00:19, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>> On Wednesday, March 29, 2023 at 3:48:14 PM UTC-6, Phil Carmody wrote:
>>> "Kerr-Mudd, John" <ad...@127.0.0.1> writes:
>>>> On Wed, 29 Mar 2023 02:40:16 -0700 (PDT) Boso deniro <bosod...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technology/british-scientists-discover-ultramassive-black-hole-30bn-times-the-mass-of-the-sun/ar-AA19czlF?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=5e8a29d3b1a348a7926459595503200d&ei=13
>>>>>
>>>>> do you think you "feel" anything or do you just come apart?
>>>>
>>>> Give it a go and let us know from the other side.
>>
>>> Supermassive black holes can have Schwarzschild radii so large that
>>> you
>>
>> don't
>>
>>> particularly notice as you crossed the event horizon. The fact
>>> that you'd passed through the firewall, and had been dragged into
>>> a non-conic orbit as you approached would make you aware of the
>>> fact one was near, but the spaghettification would not be noticed
>>> at all.
>>
>> I agree that there wouldn't be spaghettification, but I don't think you'd
>> notice passing the event horizon in any scenario.
>>
>> Also, the article was about a 30-solar-mass black hole, and that would
>> spaghettify you good and proper. The part before you died would feel
>> sort of like the rack, then worse.
>>
>>> However, non-experimental science is naval
>>
>> Weren't you saying there aren't enough Oy!s here?
>>
>
> "Naval gazing" is what Nelson used to do during the battle of Trafalgar.
>
Whilst the Teredo worm went in for naval grazing.

--
Sam Plusnet

Peter Moylan:
> The first Rama book ["Rendezvous with Rama". Arthur C. Clarke]
> was OK, but spoilt by having an inconclusive ending.

I liked the ending.
--
Mark Brader "'A matter of opinion'[?] I have to say you are
Toronto right. There['s] your opinion, which is wrong,
msb@vex.net and mine, which is right." -- Gene Ward Smith

On 31/03/23 01:36, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> On Thursday, March 30, 2023 at 3:36:25 AM UTC-6, Peter Moylan wrote:

>> Recently I was reading Dune, by Frank Herbert, for the first time
>> in fifty years. On my first reading I was struck by the physical
>> background: the desert, the worms, the spice, etc. This time around
>> I realised that it was really about a battle between enemies,
>> propped up by a rather implausible religious background.
>
> Also about the Destined One who isn't entirely happy with his
> destiny. And the physical background is certainly an important part
> of the book.
>
> What did you find implausible about the religious background?

It seemed to point to a heavily superstitious galactic society. Given
that religion is withering away even today, I find the idea of a
religion that is embraced on multiple worlds a bit unlikely. Also, I
doubt that an organisation like the Bene Gesserit could succeed in
implanting false beliefs to the extent that it would help them a few
centuries later.

--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org

On Fri, 31 Mar 2023 15:18:05 +1100, Peter Moylan
<peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:

>On 31/03/23 01:36, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>> On Thursday, March 30, 2023 at 3:36:25?AM UTC-6, Peter Moylan wrote:
>
>>> Recently I was reading Dune, by Frank Herbert, for the first time
>>> in fifty years. On my first reading I was struck by the physical
>>> background: the desert, the worms, the spice, etc. This time around
>>> I realised that it was really about a battle between enemies,
>>> propped up by a rather implausible religious background.
>>
>> Also about the Destined One who isn't entirely happy with his
>> destiny. And the physical background is certainly an important part
>> of the book.
>>
>> What did you find implausible about the religious background?
>
>It seemed to point to a heavily superstitious galactic society. Given
>that religion is withering away even today

Is it? Perhaps it is in some parts of the world, but overall? I'm not
so sure.

> I find the idea of a
>religion that is embraced on multiple worlds a bit unlikely. Also, I
>doubt that an organisation like the Bene Gesserit could succeed in
>implanting false beliefs to the extent that it would help them a few
>centuries later.

Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com> wrote:

> On Fri, 31 Mar 2023 15:18:05 +1100, Peter Moylan
> <peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
>
> >On 31/03/23 01:36, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> >> On Thursday, March 30, 2023 at 3:36:25?AM UTC-6, Peter Moylan wrote:
> >
> >>> Recently I was reading Dune, by Frank Herbert, for the first time
> >>> in fifty years. On my first reading I was struck by the physical
> >>> background: the desert, the worms, the spice, etc. This time around
> >>> I realised that it was really about a battle between enemies,
> >>> propped up by a rather implausible religious background.
> >>
> >> Also about the Destined One who isn't entirely happy with his
> >> destiny. And the physical background is certainly an important part
> >> of the book.
> >>
> >> What did you find implausible about the religious background?
> >
> >It seemed to point to a heavily superstitious galactic society. Given
> >that religion is withering away even today
>
> Is it? Perhaps it is in some parts of the world, but overall? I'm not
> so sure.

It is a race beteen making babies and indoctrinating them,
and babies growing up into a modicum of sanity.

You are already losing that race in the USA,
so you can guess what is happening in the rest of the world.
(and it doesn't help that American religionists
are actively peddling their wares abroad)

Jan

On Fri, 31 Mar 2023 22:57:13 +0200, nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J.
Lodder) wrote:

>Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com> wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 31 Mar 2023 15:18:05 +1100, Peter Moylan
>> <peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
>>
>> >On 31/03/23 01:36, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>> >> On Thursday, March 30, 2023 at 3:36:25?AM UTC-6, Peter Moylan wrote:
>> >
>> >>> Recently I was reading Dune, by Frank Herbert, for the first time
>> >>> in fifty years. On my first reading I was struck by the physical
>> >>> background: the desert, the worms, the spice, etc. This time around
>> >>> I realised that it was really about a battle between enemies,
>> >>> propped up by a rather implausible religious background.
>> >>
>> >> Also about the Destined One who isn't entirely happy with his
>> >> destiny. And the physical background is certainly an important part
>> >> of the book.
>> >>
>> >> What did you find implausible about the religious background?
>> >
>> >It seemed to point to a heavily superstitious galactic society. Given
>> >that religion is withering away even today
>>
>> Is it? Perhaps it is in some parts of the world, but overall? I'm not
>> so sure.
>
>It is a race beteen making babies and indoctrinating them,
>and babies growing up into a modicum of sanity.
>
>You are already losing that race in the USA,
>so you can guess what is happening in the rest of the world.
>(and it doesn't help that American religionists
> are actively peddling their wares abroad)
>

Yes, we've come almost full circle. Many of the first immigrants to
this country came here to escape the oppressive religionists in
Europe. Their descendants are now peddling oppressive religionism to
your lot.

--

Tony Cooper - Orlando,Florida

On Friday, March 31, 2023 at 3:05:50 PM UTC-6, TonyCooper wrote:
> On Fri, 31 Mar 2023 22:57:13 +0200, nos...@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J.
> Lodder) wrote:
>
> >Ken Blake <K...@invalid.news.com> wrote:
> >
> >> On Fri, 31 Mar 2023 15:18:05 +1100, Peter Moylan
> >> <pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
> >>
> >> >On 31/03/23 01:36, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> >> >> On Thursday, March 30, 2023 at 3:36:25?AM UTC-6, Peter Moylan wrote:
> >> >
> >> >>> Recently I was reading Dune, by Frank Herbert, for the first time
> >> >>> in fifty years. On my first reading I was struck by the physical
> >> >>> background: the desert, the worms, the spice, etc. This time around
> >> >>> I realised that it was really about a battle between enemies,
> >> >>> propped up by a rather implausible religious background.
> >> >>
> >> >> Also about the Destined One who isn't entirely happy with his
> >> >> destiny. And the physical background is certainly an important part
> >> >> of the book.
> >> >>
> >> >> What did you find implausible about the religious background?
> >> >
> >> >It seemed to point to a heavily superstitious galactic society. Given
> >> >that religion is withering away even today
> >>
> >> Is it? Perhaps it is in some parts of the world, but overall? I'm not
> >> so sure.
> >
> >It is a race beteen making babies and indoctrinating them,
> >and babies growing up into a modicum of sanity.
> >
> >You are already losing that race in the USA,
> >so you can guess what is happening in the rest of the world.
> >(and it doesn't help that American religionists
> > are actively peddling their wares abroad)
> >
> Yes, we've come almost full circle. Many of the first immigrants to
> this country came here to escape the oppressive religionists in
> Europe. Their descendants are now peddling oppressive religionism to
> your lot.

Though some came here to be free to practice their own oppression.

--
Jerry Friedman

On Thursday, March 30, 2023 at 10:18:09 PM UTC-6, Peter Moylan wrote:
> On 31/03/23 01:36, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> > On Thursday, March 30, 2023 at 3:36:25 AM UTC-6, Peter Moylan wrote:
>
> >> Recently I was reading Dune, by Frank Herbert, for the first time
> >> in fifty years. On my first reading I was struck by the physical
> >> background: the desert, the worms, the spice, etc. This time around
> >> I realised that it was really about a battle between enemies,
> >> propped up by a rather implausible religious background.
> >
> > Also about the Destined One who isn't entirely happy with his
> > destiny. And the physical background is certainly an important part
> > of the book.
> >
> > What did you find implausible about the religious background?

> It seemed to point to a heavily superstitious galactic society. Given
> that religion is withering away even today, I find the idea of a
> religion that is embraced on multiple worlds a bit unlikely.

Like others, I don't think there's that much withering, and it was
explained by history (a jihad against computers) as well as the Bene
Gesserit.

> Also, I
> doubt that an organisation like the Bene Gesserit could succeed in
> implanting false beliefs to the extent that it would help them a few
> centuries later.

Really? Beliefs that you and I think are false are still helping the clergy
of various religions after more than a millennium. And the Bene Gesserit
did have powers that normal people don't.

--
Jerry Friedman