On Tuesday, February 14, 2023 at 12:47:05 PM UTC-5, Dingbat wrote:
> On Sunday, February 12, 2023 at 9:13:35 AM UTC-8, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > On Sunday, February 12, 2023 at 12:47:29 AM UTC-5, Madhu wrote:
> > > * Dingbat <253fc032-e14b-4407-887d-93929e318c6en @googlegroups.com> :
> > > Wrote on Fri, 10 Feb 2023 08:49:48 -0800 (PST):

> > > > Commuter rail has always been operated by Indian Railways HQed
> > > > in Delhi. Suburban (heavy) rail and Metro (light) rail have always
> > > > been operated by cities. None of them has been privately owned
> > > > or operated.
> > > I believe the metros of the world (like the national highways of India
> > > which operate for profit long after construction costs have been
> > > recovered) are ultimately owned by international financier
> > > organizations, which finance them and have a stake in the (digitalized)
> > > revenues (RFID tags etc.) ---
> > The New York City subways were originally built by two rail companies,
> > Interborough Rapid Transit and Brooklyn Rapid Transit (which after a
> > horrible disaster in the 1910s changed its name to Brooklyn-Manhattan
> > Transit). The IRT and BMT remained in competition for decades. In the
> > 1930s, the mayor, for political reasons used FDR Depression money to
> > build the Independent system. The fare for all three was stuck at 5c by
> > their charters. The two companies eventually failed and the facilities
> > and operations were taken over by the city, and merged in 1948
>
> The city had no compunctions about doubling fares to 10 cents as soon

As opposed to what? 7.5c?

> as the companies were merged. It could be contrived that the city let
> the IND lose money for a time so that they could take over the other 2.

Mayor Hylan had a long and sordid history with the transit companies.

> > Meanwhile, commuter trains from the north and east were being run
> > by (divisions of) railroads that eventually merged into Conrail (Consolidated
> > Rail) and Long Island Rail Road respectively.
>
> The FTC didn't allow part of Conrail to be sold to any single owner, in order
> to prevent monopolistic control over its route. So, that part is jointly
> operated (and owned?) by CSX and Norfolk Southern.

Was. It's all MTA, unless some trains into Grand Central share
right-of-way with freight, which seems unlikely. They're on
tight schedules.

> > They too could not manage,
> > and the State of New York eventually set up the Metropolitan Transit
> > Authority, which owns both subways and commuter trains. No rail company
> > would be foolish enough to go back to passenger trains; their money is
> > solely in freight. (So much so that freight has priority on any tracks that
> > are shared by a railroad and the national passenger rail system, Amtrak,
> > a Federal corporation.
>
> Oh yeah? That Amtrak has preference to the extent DOJ enforces that
> right of theirs is evident from this:

Why would this be in the jurisdiction of DoJ and not DoT?

> The Association of American Railroads spent nearly a decade and millions
> of dollars thwarting Congress’ efforts to establish metrics and minimum
> standards for intercity passenger rail service, and the STB’s efforts to define an
> acceptable level of on-time performance, and will continue to fight enforcement
> of Amtrak’s preference rights.
> <https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/projects/dotcom/english/public/documents/corporate/HostRailroadReports/mythbusters-enforcing-amtraks-legal-right-to-preference.pdf>
>
> A hidden subsidy to Amtrak is the law giving it priority over freight trains on
> tracks privately owned by freight railroads | Washington Post OpEd
> <https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2021/06/30/right-time-its-all-aboard-more-amtrak-billions/>

I don't know about 2021. Both on my few trips to/from Chicago
long ago, and my visit to Pittsburgh in the 2010s, we were
sidelined so that freight trains could pass.
> >The only profitable part of Amtrak is the "Northeast
> > Corridor," trains between Boston and Washington, DC.
> >
> The Interstate Highway Network, OTOH, has no profitable part.

It was never intended to.

Unlike a handful of "private highways," such tolls as are
collected on interstates are for the maintenance of those
roads and bridges. I-80 goes from (just west of) NYC to
Chicago (and on to the Coast), and every bit of it is tolled
in Indiana and Ohio. The 400 miles in Pennsylvania and the
60 or so miles in New Jersey are not tolled.

On 14-Feb-23 14:05, TonyCooper wrote:
> On Tue, 14 Feb 2023 22:35:27 +1100, Peter Moylan
> <peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On 14/02/23 20:48, J. J. Lodder wrote:
>>> Athel Cornish-Bowden <athel.cb@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> On 2023-02-14 07:32:56 +0000, occam said:
>>
>>>>> Although I heartily second that motion (as someone who has
>>>>> always struggled with the concept since my Engineering degree) I
>>>>> am interested as to why €135?
>>>>
>>>> I wondered if anyone would ask that. It's a favourite amount for
>>>> fines for first offences in France.
>>>
>>> And points on your driver's licence. [1] (for others: which will be
>>> retracted if you accumulate to many)
>>
>> The police here announce "double demerits" at times like holiday
>> weekends. That increases the likelihood that you will lose your licence,
>> or come close to it.
>
>
> We often see signs stating "Speeding fines doubled when workers are
> present".

So the retired don't get treated too harshly, but drivers who work for a
living are stuffed?

--
Sam Plusnet

On Tue, 14 Feb 2023 20:00:10 +0000, Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> wrote:

>On 14-Feb-23 14:05, TonyCooper wrote:
>> On Tue, 14 Feb 2023 22:35:27 +1100, Peter Moylan
>> <peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> On 14/02/23 20:48, J. J. Lodder wrote:
>>>> Athel Cornish-Bowden <athel.cb@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> On 2023-02-14 07:32:56 +0000, occam said:
>>>
>>>>>> Although I heartily second that motion (as someone who has
>>>>>> always struggled with the concept since my Engineering degree) I
>>>>>> am interested as to why €135?
>>>>>
>>>>> I wondered if anyone would ask that. It's a favourite amount for
>>>>> fines for first offences in France.
>>>>
>>>> And points on your driver's licence. [1] (for others: which will be
>>>> retracted if you accumulate to many)
>>>
>>> The police here announce "double demerits" at times like holiday
>>> weekends. That increases the likelihood that you will lose your licence,
>>> or come close to it.
>>
>>
>> We often see signs stating "Speeding fines doubled when workers are
>> present".
>
>So the retired don't get treated too harshly, but drivers who work for a
>living are stuffed?

The people who are hired to repair roadways and to tend to the
landscaping on the verges are the "workers" who being referred to.

It has been reported that some actually appear to be working, but they
are often obscured by the seven other "workers" who are observing his
effort.

--

Tony Cooper - Orlando,Florida

On Tuesday, February 14, 2023 at 11:26:31 AM UTC-8, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> On Tuesday, February 14, 2023 at 12:47:05 PM UTC-5, Dingbat wrote:
> > On Sunday, February 12, 2023 at 9:13:35 AM UTC-8, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > > On Sunday, February 12, 2023 at 12:47:29 AM UTC-5, Madhu wrote:
> > > > * Dingbat <253fc032-e14b-4407-887d-93929e318c6en @googlegroups.com> :
> > > > Wrote on Fri, 10 Feb 2023 08:49:48 -0800 (PST):
>
> > > > > Commuter rail has always been operated by Indian Railways HQed
> > > > > in Delhi. Suburban (heavy) rail and Metro (light) rail have always
> > > > > been operated by cities. None of them has been privately owned
> > > > > or operated.
> > > > I believe the metros of the world (like the national highways of India
> > > > which operate for profit long after construction costs have been
> > > > recovered) are ultimately owned by international financier
> > > > organizations, which finance them and have a stake in the (digitalized)
> > > > revenues (RFID tags etc.) ---
> > > The New York City subways were originally built by two rail companies,
> > > Interborough Rapid Transit and Brooklyn Rapid Transit (which after a
> > > horrible disaster in the 1910s changed its name to Brooklyn-Manhattan
> > > Transit). The IRT and BMT remained in competition for decades. In the
> > > 1930s, the mayor, for political reasons used FDR Depression money to
> > > build the Independent system. The fare for all three was stuck at 5c by
> > > their charters. The two companies eventually failed and the facilities
> > > and operations were taken over by the city, and merged in 1948
> >
> > The city had no compunctions about doubling fares to 10 cents as soon
> As opposed to what? 7.5c?
> > as the companies were merged. It could be contrived that the city let
> > the IND lose money for a time so that they could take over the other 2.
> Mayor Hylan had a long and sordid history with the transit companies.
> > > Meanwhile, commuter trains from the north and east were being run
> > > by (divisions of) railroads that eventually merged into Conrail (Consolidated
> > > Rail) and Long Island Rail Road respectively.
> >
> > The FTC didn't allow part of Conrail to be sold to any single owner, in order
> > to prevent monopolistic control over its route. So, that part is jointly
> > operated (and owned?) by CSX and Norfolk Southern.
> Was. It's all MTA, unless some trains into Grand Central share
> right-of-way with freight, which seems unlikely. They're on
> tight schedules.
>
What went to MTA is commuter lines.
>
Freight lines are owned by a corporation owned by CSX and Norfolk Southern.
It leases each line to either CSX or Norfork Southern. That makes only one of
them responsible for maintaining each line. There is an exception. The FTC
ruled that some line(s) could not be leased only to one of them, so
that line (or those lines) is (are) jointly used and maintained by CSX and
Norfolk Southern.
>
> > > They too could not manage,
> > > and the State of New York eventually set up the Metropolitan Transit
> > > Authority, which owns both subways and commuter trains. No rail company
> > > would be foolish enough to go back to passenger trains; their money is
> > > solely in freight. (So much so that freight has priority on any tracks that
> > > are shared by a railroad and the national passenger rail system, Amtrak,
> > > a Federal corporation.
> >
> > Oh yeah? That Amtrak has preference to the extent DOJ enforces that
> > right of theirs is evident from this:
> Why would this be in the jurisdiction of DoJ and not DoT?
>
Good question. It ought to be within the DoT's jurisdiction. But I see
enforcement only by the DOJ:
>
<<While failure to give preference to Amtrak trains is a violation of federal
statute, only the Justice Department can seek to enforce Amtrak's ...>>
<https://www.amtraktrains.com/threads/freight-railroads-ignore-amtrak%E2%80%99s-preference.6390/>

<DOJ can enforce the passenger preference in court. The DOJ initiated one
enforcement action to protect Amtrak's rights in the 1979 case>
<https://lawecommons.luc.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2792&context=luclj>

> > The Association of American Railroads spent nearly a decade and millions
> > of dollars thwarting Congress’ efforts to establish metrics and minimum
> > standards for intercity passenger rail service, and the STB’s efforts to define an
> > acceptable level of on-time performance, and will continue to fight enforcement
> > of Amtrak’s preference rights.
> > <https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/projects/dotcom/english/public/documents/corporate/HostRailroadReports/mythbusters-enforcing-amtraks-legal-right-to-preference.pdf>
> >
> > A hidden subsidy to Amtrak is the law giving it priority over freight trains on
> > tracks privately owned by freight railroads | Washington Post OpEd
> > <https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2021/06/30/right-time-its-all-aboard-more-amtrak-billions/>
> I don't know about 2021. Both on my few trips to/from Chicago
> long ago, and my visit to Pittsburgh in the 2010s, we were
> sidelined so that freight trains could pass.
>
There's something about not giving Amtrak preference to such an extent as
to be ruinous to the freight business. So long as they give Amtrak preference
some of the time, they can claim that they are doing so to the extent they can.
It's if they never give Amtrak preference that they're in trouble.
>
> > >The only profitable part of Amtrak is the "Northeast
> > > Corridor," trains between Boston and Washington, DC.
> > >
> > The Interstate Highway Network, OTOH, has no profitable part.
> It was never intended to.
>
Was Amtrak intended to be profitable everywhere it operates?
>
> Unlike a handful of "private highways," such tolls as are
> collected on interstates are for the maintenance of those
> roads and bridges. I-80 goes from (just west of) NYC to
> Chicago (and on to the Coast), and every bit of it is tolled
> in Indiana and Ohio. The 400 miles in Pennsylvania and the
> 60 or so miles in New Jersey are not tolled.

Sam Plusnet hat am 14.02.2023 um 21:00 geschrieben:
> So the retired don't get treated too harshly, but drivers who work for a
> living are stuffed?

Frankly, about the lorry driver who almost certainly worked for a
living, but did not look to his right and almost drove over my bike AND
MY BODY in the 80s ...

Enough said.

On Tuesday, February 14, 2023 at 3:33:40 PM UTC-5, Dingbat wrote:
> On Tuesday, February 14, 2023 at 11:26:31 AM UTC-8, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > On Tuesday, February 14, 2023 at 12:47:05 PM UTC-5, Dingbat wrote:
> > > On Sunday, February 12, 2023 at 9:13:35 AM UTC-8, Peter T. Daniels wrote:

> > > >The only profitable part of Amtrak is the "Northeast
> > > > Corridor," trains between Boston and Washington, DC.
> > > The Interstate Highway Network, OTOH, has no profitable part.
> > It was never intended to.
>
> Was Amtrak intended to be profitable everywhere it operates?

Is the Postal Service supposed to be "profitable"? There are no
shareholders. It would ideally cover its capital and operating costs,
but the only region where it has enough business to do so is the
Northeast Corridor.

Paul Wolff <bounceme@thiswontwork.wolff.co.uk> wrote:

> On Tue, 14 Feb 2023, at 15:01:58, J. J. Lodder posted:
> >occam <occam@nowhere.nix> wrote:
> >> On 14/02/2023 10:48, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> >> >
> >> > The charm of usenet is that posting licences don't exist,
> >>
> >> The 'charm' of life is that breeding (reproducing) does not require a
> >> licence. After that, most freedoms pale into insignificance.
> >
> >Yes, don't go living in Moa's people's paradise,
> >
> It will never fly.

Right. Those Moas discovered too late
that their one egg policy wouldn't work,

Jan

On 15/02/23 03:06, Ken Blake wrote:
> On Tue, 14 Feb 2023 10:58:07 -0500, TonyCooper
> <tonycooper214@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Tue, 14 Feb 2023 07:27:49 -0800 (PST), Jerry Friedman
>> <jerry.friedman99@gmail.com> wrote:

>>> Though for real sophistication, you could have one or more
>>> thermostats. (My air conditioner doesn't have one, but I was
>>> expecting a bit more from Australia and Florida than from New
>>> Mexico.)
>>
>> Our former two-story house had a thermostat for each floor's
>> units.
>>
>> When the upstairs unit was replaced, the company replacing it
>> offered to install a "smart" thermostat that allowed settings to
>> change the temp by the day, by the hours, or - for all I know - for
>> months with an "r" in them.
>>
>> I declined. I wanted a simple way to set the temp.
>
> Both of our thermostats can do that, although I don't use that
> feature.
>
> And I can set the temperature on my Android cell phone much more
> easily than I can on the thermostat itself.

I think our air conditioner allows for a schedule of when to change
settings. I read about it in the manual, but have never used that
feature. I suppose it's for people who want to keep the machine running
when they're absent, or want to change settings after they have gone to
sleep.

We turn the cooling on when the house is too hot, and then turn it off
again when the temperature has dropped sufficiently. We also turn it off
when leaving the house. It probably wouldn't make much difference at all
to us if we didn't have a thermostat.

The thermostat probably does have a job to do in winter, but even then
we could survive happily without it. All those fancy "programmable"
features are for marketing use only, and in practice they probably
remain unused by almost everyone.

--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org

On 15/02/23 02:29, Ken Blake wrote:
> On Tue, 14 Feb 2023 13:00:35 +1100, Peter Moylan
> <peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:

>> Once upon a time I was able to crawl through the ceiling cavity to
>> deal with the rare problems that might require such a trip. We
>> bought this house after I lost the ability to safely go up there,
>> so I don't know precisely what's up there, apart from some
>> large-diameter air ducts.
>
> "Large-diameter" suggests that they are round. I'm used to their
> being rectangular here.

Then yours are probably also rigid. The most common system here has
flexible ducts with a circular cross-section. That works best when the
installers don't know in advance what sort of corners the ducts will
have to go around.

Rigid ducts are probably better in the case where the ducts are
installed at the time the house is being built.

--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org

On Wed, 15 Feb 2023 11:36:33 +1100, Peter Moylan
<peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:

>On 15/02/23 03:06, Ken Blake wrote:
>> On Tue, 14 Feb 2023 10:58:07 -0500, TonyCooper
>> <tonycooper214@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Tue, 14 Feb 2023 07:27:49 -0800 (PST), Jerry Friedman
>>> <jerry.friedman99@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>>> Though for real sophistication, you could have one or more
>>>> thermostats. (My air conditioner doesn't have one, but I was
>>>> expecting a bit more from Australia and Florida than from New
>>>> Mexico.)
>>>
>>> Our former two-story house had a thermostat for each floor's
>>> units.
>>>
>>> When the upstairs unit was replaced, the company replacing it
>>> offered to install a "smart" thermostat that allowed settings to
>>> change the temp by the day, by the hours, or - for all I know - for
>>> months with an "r" in them.
>>>
>>> I declined. I wanted a simple way to set the temp.
>>
>> Both of our thermostats can do that, although I don't use that
>> feature.
>>
>> And I can set the temperature on my Android cell phone much more
>> easily than I can on the thermostat itself.
>
>I think our air conditioner allows for a schedule of when to change
>settings. I read about it in the manual, but have never used that
>feature. I suppose it's for people who want to keep the machine running
>when they're absent, or want to change settings after they have gone to
>sleep.
>
>We turn the cooling on when the house is too hot, and then turn it off
>again when the temperature has dropped sufficiently. We also turn it off
>when leaving the house. It probably wouldn't make much difference at all
>to us if we didn't have a thermostat.
>
>The thermostat probably does have a job to do in winter, but even then
>we could survive happily without it. All those fancy "programmable"
>features are for marketing use only, and in practice they probably
>remain unused by almost everyone.

The air conditioning units in the US do not have controls. There's a
power switch, but that is only turned off when the unit is being
repaired or replaced.

The control is done by the thermostat, and that's a separate device.
The unit can be turned off at the thermostat, but it does not cut the
power to the unit.

To do what you do when leaving the house, I wouldn't open the door to
the closet containing the indoor unit. I would set the thermostat to
off.

The A/C went out in this condo a month of two after we moved in. I
called a service company, and the first thing they did was check the
thermostat. The battery was dead.

In our previous residence, the thermostats were hard-wired into the
house electric, so there were no batteries. That's why I didn't check
the battery before calling the service company.

As long as I had to pay the fee for the service call, I had them
hard-wire this thermos so no battery is now needed.

--

Tony Cooper - Orlando,Florida

On 2023-02-14 18:36, Peter Moylan wrote:
> On 15/02/23 03:06, Ken Blake wrote:
>> On Tue, 14 Feb 2023 10:58:07 -0500, TonyCooper
>> <tonycooper214@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Tue, 14 Feb 2023 07:27:49 -0800 (PST), Jerry Friedman
>>> <jerry.friedman99@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>>> Though for real sophistication, you could have one or more
>>>> thermostats. (My air conditioner doesn't have one, but I was
>>>> expecting a bit more from Australia and Florida than from New
>>>> Mexico.)
>>>
>>> Our former two-story house had a thermostat for each floor's
>>> units.
>>>
>>> When the upstairs unit was replaced, the company replacing it
>>> offered to install a "smart" thermostat that allowed settings to
>>> change the temp by the day, by the hours, or - for all I know - for
>>> months with an "r" in them.
>>>
>>> I declined.  I wanted a simple way to set the temp.
>>
>> Both of our thermostats can do that, although I don't use that
>> feature.
>>
>> And I can set the temperature on my Android cell phone much more
>> easily than I can on the thermostat itself.
>
> I think our air conditioner allows for a schedule of when to change
> settings. I read about it in the manual, but have never used that
> feature. I suppose it's for people who want to keep the machine running
> when they're absent, or want to change settings after they have gone to
> sleep.
>
> We turn the cooling on when the house is too hot, and then turn it off
> again when the temperature has dropped sufficiently. We also turn it off
> when leaving the house. It probably wouldn't make much difference at all
> to us if we didn't have a thermostat.
>
> The thermostat probably does have a job to do in winter, but even then
> we could survive happily without it. All those fancy "programmable"
> features are for marketing use only, and in practice they probably
> remain unused by almost everyone.

We use the programmable features all the time.

Currently, during the day, the setting is 70-73, so the heat comes on at
69, and if it ever gets to 73, it would turn on the A/C. [1] During the
winter, it will never get to 73, of course.

At 22:00, the setting changes (currently) to 66-69, which we find more
comfortable for sleeping, in addition to saving a bit of money.

In summer, we set the ranges a bit differently, as the temperature in
the house seldom drops appreciably.

[1] Not metric, because I never looked up the method to set the
thermostat to metric.

--
All odd numbers contain the letter "e".

On Tue, 14 Feb 2023 20:24:10 -0500, TonyCooper
<tonycooper214@gmail.com> wrote:

>
>The A/C went out in this condo a month of two after we moved in. I
>called a service company, and the first thing they did was check the
>thermostat. The battery was dead.
>
>In our previous residence, the thermostats were hard-wired into the
>house electric, so there were no batteries. That's why I didn't check
>the battery before calling the service company.

My dead battery, a few months ago, was more forgiving -
The heat still worked, but I could not change the temperature
setting more than 1 degree (total). And, trying over several days,
sometimes it would not change at all.

I think I have gone for years without changing either setting,
for A/C and for heat, but a few days of minus (F) temperatures
made the walls cold enough that I wanted a bit more heat.

The apartment manager sent a workman, who asked about
the battery. Battery? Maybe they told me about the battery
when they replaced all the thermostats in the building, 10 or more
years ago. I didn't remember, and didn't expect it.

I suspect that if I never happened to have tried to change the
setting, eventually the battery would have become weak
enough that the temperature control would have stopped working.

--
Rich Ulrich

TonyCooper formulated the response:
> On Tue, 14 Feb 2023 13:00:35 +1100, Peter Moylan
> <peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:

>> OK, that's one solution. Our vents can't be covered. Instead, the house
>> is divided into four "zones". Four switches on the wall, underneath the
>> main air conditioning control panel, turn the zones on or off. They
>> control something in the ceiling that opens or closes the air path to
>> the zones. Or perhaps they just control the fans in the ceiling - which
>> are distinct from the powerful fans in the external compressor unit -
>> that push the air through the ducts.
>>
>
> Your system is much more sophisticated than what I've seen. It may be
> employed here, but I've never known about it.
>
> My only concern would be that with four systems and four sets of
> controls there's more to go wrong and if things go wrong where they
> are inaccessible, getting it fixed would be more expensive.

Multi-zone mini-splits seem to have just one compressor, but 4 (say)
separate sets of coolant lines running one each to the various heat
exchangers, with the thermostats controlling which coolant lines are
active. Solenoid valves, I'd wager, and the valves might either be by
the compressor or by the heat exchanger [that is, I'm sure it is one or
the other, but I haven't re-watched the video yet], and the thermostats
also provide a logical-OR input to the compressor motor relay and
probably the reverser valve. I'm sure someone has figured out what to
do when one thermostat wants heat and one wants cold.

Note that both the compressor and the heat exchangers are relatively
accessible.

Is this the way Peter's system works? Maybe.

/dps

--
Let's celebrate Macaronesia

TonyCooper is guilty of <6hcouh552vgnn2lqbi2mdj1t7ofs7tifh9@4ax.com> as
of 2/14/2023 5:24:10 PM
> On Wed, 15 Feb 2023 11:36:33 +1100, Peter Moylan
> <peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:

>> The thermostat probably does have a job to do in winter, but even then
>> we could survive happily without it. All those fancy "programmable"
>> features are for marketing use only, and in practice they probably
>> remain unused by almost everyone.
>
> The air conditioning units in the US do not have controls. There's a
> power switch, but that is only turned off when the unit is being
> repaired or replaced.
>
> The control is done by the thermostat, and that's a separate device.
> The unit can be turned off at the thermostat, but it does not cut the
> power to the unit.
>
> To do what you do when leaving the house, I wouldn't open the door to
> the closet containing the indoor unit. I would set the thermostat to
> off.
>

I was coresident with a Nest thermostat for a while. It is real simple
to use; you push the up button or the down button to change the
temperature setting up or down, and IIRC you push straight in to toggle
on or off. Sounds just like what Peter does, right? [well, ignoring
the stylistic ways of button implementation where a disc covers the
actual buttons if capacitive sensing isn't being used] Simps!

What's added is that the thermostat is lookng for pattern in when and
which way you push those buttons. Once it thinks it knows your
pattern, it anticipates your pushes, and does them for you. So if you
regularly turn the heat up when you come down for breakfast, regularly
turn it down when you wander out to your commute, regularly turn it
back up when you get home, and somewhat down when you go to bed ... it
starts doing all that for you, without your having to go through any
menus or enter your name with a joystick [but you also don't get
high-score credits].

And if you wanted to override the cycle briefly, also simps! Just
press the buttons again.

Caveat: as someone very low on the totem pole, I wasn't encouraged to
spend much time experimenting with this thermostat, but I did learn
that it was a lot simpler to use than the multi-program thermostat I
was previously co-resident with.

And the numbers were displayed with large, legible characters.

/dps

--
Killing a mouse was hardly a Nobel Prize-worthy exercise, and Lawrence
went apopleptic when he learned a lousy rodent had peed away all his
precious heavy water.
_The Disappearing Spoon_, Sam Kean

On 15/02/23 19:26, Snidely wrote:
> TonyCooper is guilty of <6hcouh552vgnn2lqbi2mdj1t7ofs7tifh9@4ax.com>
> as of 2/14/2023 5:24:10 PM
>> On Wed, 15 Feb 2023 11:36:33 +1100, Peter Moylan
>> <peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
>
>>> The thermostat probably does have a job to do in winter, but even
>>> then we could survive happily without it. All those fancy
>>> "programmable" features are for marketing use only, and in
>>> practice they probably remain unused by almost everyone.
>>
>> The air conditioning units in the US do not have controls. There's
>> a power switch, but that is only turned off when the unit is being
>> repaired or replaced.
>>
>> The control is done by the thermostat, and that's a separate
>> device. The unit can be turned off at the thermostat, but it does
>> not cut the power to the unit. To do what you do when leaving the
>> house, I wouldn't open the door to the closet containing the indoor
>> unit. I would set the thermostat to off.
>
> I was coresident with a Nest thermostat for a while. It is real
> simple to use; you push the up button or the down button to change
> the temperature setting up or down, and IIRC you push straight in to
> toggle on or off. Sounds just like what Peter does, right? [well,
> ignoring the stylistic ways of button implementation where a disc
> covers the actual buttons if capacitive sensing isn't being used]
> Simps!

Our controller, which is located on a wall about where one might expect
a light switch, has three main buttons and several smaller ones. The
biggest button is the on/off toggle. The next two are for the thermostat
setting: one button for "up", one for "down". Most of the time, those
are the only buttons we use. There's also a little screen that, most of
the time, shows the temperature the thermostat is set at.

The minor buttons are for things you don't have to change very often:
setting it for "cool" or for "heat" or for "automatic"; changing fan
speed; setting the clock; etc. Most such functions are reached by
hitting a "menu" button and then using the up/down buttons to get to the
feature you want to change. There are F1 and F2 buttons whose meaning
depends on which menu you're in. This was obviously designed by someone
used to computer interfaces.

> What's added is that the thermostat is lookng for pattern in when and
> which way you push those buttons. Once it thinks it knows your
> pattern, it anticipates your pushes, and does them for you. So if
> you regularly turn the heat up when you come down for breakfast,
> regularly turn it down when you wander out to your commute, regularly
> turn it back up when you get home, and somewhat down when you go to
> bed ... it starts doing all that for you, without your having to go
> through any menus or enter your name with a joystick [but you also
> don't get high-score credits].

That's a nice idea that could be adopted more widely.

--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org

On Wed, 15 Feb 2023 11:42:49 +1100, Peter Moylan
<peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:

>On 15/02/23 02:29, Ken Blake wrote:
>> On Tue, 14 Feb 2023 13:00:35 +1100, Peter Moylan
>> <peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
>
>>> Once upon a time I was able to crawl through the ceiling cavity to
>>> deal with the rare problems that might require such a trip. We
>>> bought this house after I lost the ability to safely go up there,
>>> so I don't know precisely what's up there, apart from some
>>> large-diameter air ducts.
>>
>> "Large-diameter" suggests that they are round. I'm used to their
>> being rectangular here.
>
>Then yours are probably also rigid.

Yes, they are.

>The most common system here has
>flexible ducts with a circular cross-section. That works best when the
>installers don't know in advance what sort of corners the ducts will
>have to go around.

OK, I guess that makes sense.

>Rigid ducts are probably better in the case where the ducts are
>installed at the time the house is being built.

Yes, they were.

On Tuesday, February 14, 2023 at 8:24:09 PM UTC-5, TonyCooper wrote:

> The air conditioning units in the US

There he goes again. Is he familiar with every building code and
every manufacturer in the country?

On Tuesday, February 14, 2023 at 8:58:06 AM UTC-7, TonyCooper wrote:
> On Tue, 14 Feb 2023 07:27:49 -0800 (PST), Jerry Friedman
> <jerry.fr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >On Monday, February 13, 2023 at 9:39:11 PM UTC-7, TonyCooper wrote:
> >> On Tue, 14 Feb 2023 13:00:35 +1100, Peter Moylan
> >> <pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
> >>
> >> >On 14/02/23 12:43, TonyCooper wrote:
> >> >> On Tue, 14 Feb 2023 11:58:26 +1100, Peter Moylan
> >> >> <pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:

[A/C]

> >> >>> That's pretty much what we have, for a one-level house. All the
> >> >>> important stuff is outside the house. The ductwork, and the fans
> >> >>> and switches that direct the air to different parts of the house,
> >> >>> are in the ceiling cavity.
> >> >>
> >> >> As far as I know, the ductwork in the houses I've lived in have all
> >> >> been just conduits for air. The fans and switches are in the units
> >> >> in the closets.
> >> >>
> >> >> The air is not directed within the ductwork. It flows freely to all
> >> >> rooms. If the heat or cool air is not needed in a room, the vent
> >> >> cover(s) in that room are closed.
> >> >>>
> >> >>
> >> >> https://www.hvachowto.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/Best-Adjustable-Air-Conditioning-Vent-Cover-Air-Diverter-2019.jpg
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >The vents are usually in the ceiling.
> >> >
> >> >OK, that's one solution. Our vents can't be covered. Instead, the house
> >> >is divided into four "zones". Four switches on the wall, underneath the
> >> >main air conditioning control panel, turn the zones on or off. They
> >> >control something in the ceiling that opens or closes the air path to
> >> >the zones. Or perhaps they just control the fans in the ceiling - which
> >> >are distinct from the powerful fans in the external compressor unit -
> >> >that push the air through the ducts.
> >> >
> >> Your system is much more sophisticated than what I've seen. It may be
> >> employed here, but I've never known about it.
> >...
> >
> >Though for real sophistication, you could have one or more thermostats.
> >(My air conditioner doesn't have one, but I was expecting a bit more
> >from Australia and Florida than from New Mexico.)
> Our former two-story house had a thermostat for each floor's units.
>
> When the upstairs unit was replaced, the company replacing it offered
> to install a "smart" thermostat that allowed settings to change the
> temp by the day, by the hours, or - for all I know - for months with
> an "r" in them.
....

Ah. What you, Ken, and Peter said is what I expected.

--
Jerry Friedman

On Tuesday, February 14, 2023 at 6:24:09 PM UTC-7, TonyCooper wrote:
> On Wed, 15 Feb 2023 11:36:33 +1100, Peter Moylan
> <pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
>
> >On 15/02/23 03:06, Ken Blake wrote:
> >> On Tue, 14 Feb 2023 10:58:07 -0500, TonyCooper
> >> <tonyco...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>> On Tue, 14 Feb 2023 07:27:49 -0800 (PST), Jerry Friedman
> >>> <jerry.fr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >>>> Though for real sophistication, you could have one or more
> >>>> thermostats. (My air conditioner doesn't have one, but I was
> >>>> expecting a bit more from Australia and Florida than from New
> >>>> Mexico.)
> >>>
> >>> Our former two-story house had a thermostat for each floor's
> >>> units.
> >>>
> >>> When the upstairs unit was replaced, the company replacing it
> >>> offered to install a "smart" thermostat that allowed settings to
> >>> change the temp by the day, by the hours, or - for all I know - for
> >>> months with an "r" in them.
> >>>
> >>> I declined. I wanted a simple way to set the temp.
> >>
> >> Both of our thermostats can do that, although I don't use that
> >> feature.
> >>
> >> And I can set the temperature on my Android cell phone much more
> >> easily than I can on the thermostat itself.
> >
> >I think our air conditioner allows for a schedule of when to change
> >settings. I read about it in the manual, but have never used that
> >feature. I suppose it's for people who want to keep the machine running
> >when they're absent, or want to change settings after they have gone to
> >sleep.
> >
> >We turn the cooling on when the house is too hot, and then turn it off
> >again when the temperature has dropped sufficiently. We also turn it off
> >when leaving the house. It probably wouldn't make much difference at all
> >to us if we didn't have a thermostat.
> >
> >The thermostat probably does have a job to do in winter, but even then
> >we could survive happily without it. All those fancy "programmable"
> >features are for marketing use only, and in practice they probably
> >remain unused by almost everyone.

> The air conditioning units in the US do not have controls. There's a
> power switch, but that is only turned off when the unit is being
> repaired or replaced.
....

My air conditioner, which is in the living-room wall, has a power switch
and is almost always off. It has a "temp control", but I suspect that's
not a thermostat but a control for how hard the compressor works. This
is New Mexico.

--
Jerry Friedman

On Wed, 15 Feb 2023 10:13:01 -0800 (PST), Jerry Friedman
<jerry.friedman99@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Tuesday, February 14, 2023 at 6:24:09 PM UTC-7, TonyCooper wrote:
>> On Wed, 15 Feb 2023 11:36:33 +1100, Peter Moylan
>> <pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
>>
>> >On 15/02/23 03:06, Ken Blake wrote:
>> >> On Tue, 14 Feb 2023 10:58:07 -0500, TonyCooper
>> >> <tonyco...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>> On Tue, 14 Feb 2023 07:27:49 -0800 (PST), Jerry Friedman
>> >>> <jerry.fr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >>>> Though for real sophistication, you could have one or more
>> >>>> thermostats. (My air conditioner doesn't have one, but I was
>> >>>> expecting a bit more from Australia and Florida than from New
>> >>>> Mexico.)
>> >>>
>> >>> Our former two-story house had a thermostat for each floor's
>> >>> units.
>> >>>
>> >>> When the upstairs unit was replaced, the company replacing it
>> >>> offered to install a "smart" thermostat that allowed settings to
>> >>> change the temp by the day, by the hours, or - for all I know - for
>> >>> months with an "r" in them.
>> >>>
>> >>> I declined. I wanted a simple way to set the temp.
>> >>
>> >> Both of our thermostats can do that, although I don't use that
>> >> feature.
>> >>
>> >> And I can set the temperature on my Android cell phone much more
>> >> easily than I can on the thermostat itself.
>> >
>> >I think our air conditioner allows for a schedule of when to change
>> >settings. I read about it in the manual, but have never used that
>> >feature. I suppose it's for people who want to keep the machine running
>> >when they're absent, or want to change settings after they have gone to
>> >sleep.
>> >
>> >We turn the cooling on when the house is too hot, and then turn it off
>> >again when the temperature has dropped sufficiently. We also turn it off
>> >when leaving the house. It probably wouldn't make much difference at all
>> >to us if we didn't have a thermostat.
>> >
>> >The thermostat probably does have a job to do in winter, but even then
>> >we could survive happily without it. All those fancy "programmable"
>> >features are for marketing use only, and in practice they probably
>> >remain unused by almost everyone.
>
>> The air conditioning units in the US do not have controls. There's a
>> power switch, but that is only turned off when the unit is being
>> repaired or replaced.
>...
>
>My air conditioner, which is in the living-room wall, has a power switch
>and is almost always off. It has a "temp control", but I suspect that's
>not a thermostat but a control for how hard the compressor works. This
>is New Mexico.

You evidently have what is sometimes called a "through the wall" air
conditioning unit.

They are available here, but - as far as I know - sold as units to be
installed in all-ready-built structures where adding ductwork is not
possible or practical.

I was referring to the type of units installed in structures at the
time they are built, and where the air travels in ducts to the rooms.

Our previous home (which I sold to our son) has a room that was added
on a few years after the house was built. While some ductwork was
added to cool/heat that room, it comes out in the far end of a rather
large room and is not really sufficient to heat/cool the room.

Our son is considering adding a "through the wall" unit to that room.

--

Tony Cooper - Orlando,Florida

On Wednesday, February 15, 2023 at 12:35:52 PM UTC-7, TonyCooper wrote:
> On Wed, 15 Feb 2023 10:13:01 -0800 (PST), Jerry Friedman
> <jerry.fr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >On Tuesday, February 14, 2023 at 6:24:09 PM UTC-7, TonyCooper wrote:
....

> >> The air conditioning units in the US do not have controls. There's a
> >> power switch, but that is only turned off when the unit is being
> >> repaired or replaced.
> >...
> >
> >My air conditioner, which is in the living-room wall, has a power switch
> >and is almost always off. It has a "temp control", but I suspect that's
> >not a thermostat but a control for how hard the compressor works. This
> >is New Mexico.

> You evidently have what is sometimes called a "through the wall" air
> conditioning unit.

That is correct.
> They are available here, but - as far as I know - sold as units to be
> installed in all-ready-built structures where adding ductwork is not
> possible or practical.

Could well be what happened here.

> I was referring to the type of units installed in structures at the
> time they are built, and where the air travels in ducts to the rooms.
....

I see.

--
Jerry Friedman

On Wednesday, February 15, 2023 at 11:46:30 AM UTC-8, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> On Wednesday, February 15, 2023 at 12:35:52 PM UTC-7, TonyCooper wrote:
> > On Wed, 15 Feb 2023 10:13:01 -0800 (PST), Jerry Friedman
> > <jerry.fr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > >On Tuesday, February 14, 2023 at 6:24:09 PM UTC-7, TonyCooper wrote:
> ...
> > >> The air conditioning units in the US do not have controls. There's a
> > >> power switch, but that is only turned off when the unit is being
> > >> repaired or replaced.
> > >...
> > >
> > >My air conditioner, which is in the living-room wall, has a power switch
> > >and is almost always off. It has a "temp control", but I suspect that's
> > >not a thermostat but a control for how hard the compressor works. This
> > >is New Mexico.
>
> > You evidently have what is sometimes called a "through the wall" air
> > conditioning unit.
> That is correct.
> > They are available here, but - as far as I know - sold as units to be
> > installed in all-ready-built structures where adding ductwork is not
> > possible or practical.
> Could well be what happened here.
> > I was referring to the type of units installed in structures at the
> > time they are built, and where the air travels in ducts to the rooms.
> ...
>
> I see.
>
> --
> Jerry Friedman

I just saw Man of Steel. It's all about expansion, entropy, order to disorder, Pete Ross, Lois Lane, new elements, and testing the limits. And Amy Adams ain't bad either.

On Thursday, February 16, 2023 at 11:55:45 AM UTC-8, Boso deniro wrote:
> On Wednesday, February 15, 2023 at 11:46:30 AM UTC-8, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> > On Wednesday, February 15, 2023 at 12:35:52 PM UTC-7, TonyCooper wrote:
> > > On Wed, 15 Feb 2023 10:13:01 -0800 (PST), Jerry Friedman
> > > <jerry.fr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > >On Tuesday, February 14, 2023 at 6:24:09 PM UTC-7, TonyCooper wrote:
> > ...
> > > >> The air conditioning units in the US do not have controls. There's a
> > > >> power switch, but that is only turned off when the unit is being
> > > >> repaired or replaced.
> > > >...
> > > >
> > > >My air conditioner, which is in the living-room wall, has a power switch
> > > >and is almost always off. It has a "temp control", but I suspect that's
> > > >not a thermostat but a control for how hard the compressor works. This
> > > >is New Mexico.
> >
> > > You evidently have what is sometimes called a "through the wall" air
> > > conditioning unit.
> > That is correct.
> > > They are available here, but - as far as I know - sold as units to be
> > > installed in all-ready-built structures where adding ductwork is not
> > > possible or practical.
> > Could well be what happened here.
> > > I was referring to the type of units installed in structures at the
> > > time they are built, and where the air travels in ducts to the rooms.
> > ...
> >
> > I see.
> >
> > --
> > Jerry Friedman
> I just saw Man of Steel. It's all about expansion, entropy, order to disorder, Pete Ross, Lois Lane, new elements, and testing the limits. And Amy Adams ain't bad either.

The Big bang has happened and rehappened as many times as there are blinks of the eye -- like G-d has always been and always will be -- time is as much memory as it is the presence and absence of matter and space.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technology/on-the-origin-of-time-stephen-hawking-s-mind-blowing-final-theory/ar-AA18O3uK?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=12266f99544f41d88ff8ffb44f7c8901&ei=9

Entropy is the gear of time.