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Re: Google Search: an honest, hard working jew
> Your search - an honest, hard working jew - did not match any
> documents.
>
> Suggestions:
>
> Make sure all words are spelled correctly.
> Try different keywords.
> Try more general keywords.
> Try fewer keywords.

I respond:
Perhaps S K, who might be the only Hindu anti-semite, is using the
wrong search terms. Honest, hard-working people wouldn't call
themselves so. People who used those terms might have hesitated
to use them to describe Jews at a time when they were surrounded
by anti-Semites. Anyhow, here is one example of such usage:

From a PBS article titled 'Ford's Anti-Semitism:
I think it (Henry Ford's publication The International Jew) caused them
to feel that they had to prove themselves, that it wasn't just enough
that they were sober, honest, hard-working citizens. They had to make
these pronouncements about how American they were.
<https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/features/henryford-antisemitism/>

The Bible doesn't use those adjectives, so SK's search wouldn't find anything.
The Valiant Woman “works with willing hands” - Prov. 31:13
A good name is to be chosen rather than great riches, and favor is better than silver or gold. - Prov. 22:1.
Whoever is kind to the poor lends to the Lord, and will be repaid in full. - Prov. 19:17
Unequal weights are an abomination to the Lord, and false scales are not good. - Prov. 20:23

Solon, the Greek sage, too uses adjectives that would be peculiar in modern usage.
He calls dutiful people 'Happy'. That would look very odd in English.
But I find that usage in the Bible too: Her children rise up and call her happy. Prov 31:28
Why a dutiful woman is called valiant and happy rather than dutiful and hardworking is beyond me.

On Sunday, 5 March 2023 at 16:24:46 UTC+5:30, Dingbat wrote:
> Re: Google Search: an honest, hard working jew
> > Your search - an honest, hard working jew - did not match any
> > documents.
> >
> > Suggestions:
> >
> > Make sure all words are spelled correctly.
> > Try different keywords.
> > Try more general keywords.
> > Try fewer keywords.
> I respond:
> Perhaps S K, who might be the only Hindu anti-semite,

Skippy is a Tamil Muslim, staunchly devoted to Chennai and his Great Beloved Leader P*.

is using the
> wrong search terms. Honest, hard-working people wouldn't call
> themselves so. People who used those terms might have hesitated
> to use them to describe Jews at a time when they were surrounded
> by anti-Semites. Anyhow, here is one example of such usage:
>
> From a PBS article titled 'Ford's Anti-Semitism:
> I think it (Henry Ford's publication The International Jew) caused them
> to feel that they had to prove themselves, that it wasn't just enough
> that they were sober, honest, hard-working citizens. They had to make
> these pronouncements about how American they were.
> <https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/features/henryford-antisemitism/>
>
> The Bible doesn't use those adjectives, so SK's search wouldn't find anything.
> The Valiant Woman “works with willing hands” - Prov. 31:13
> A good name is to be chosen rather than great riches, and favor is better than silver or gold. - Prov. 22:1.
> Whoever is kind to the poor lends to the Lord, and will be repaid in full.. - Prov. 19:17
> Unequal weights are an abomination to the Lord, and false scales are not good. - Prov. 20:23
>
> Solon, the Greek sage, too uses adjectives that would be peculiar in modern usage.
> He calls dutiful people 'Happy'. That would look very odd in English.
> But I find that usage in the Bible too: Her children rise up and call her happy. Prov 31:28
> Why a dutiful woman is called valiant and happy rather than dutiful and hardworking is beyond me.

> > Perhaps S K, who might be the only Hindu anti-semite,
>
Arindam Banerjee wrote:
> Skippy is a Tamil Muslim, staunchly devoted to Chennai and his Great Beloved Leader P*.
>
Skippy, notwithstanding his nuttiness, nay insanity, on other subjects,
is a competent scholar of Tamil. All such Tamils I've found are Hindu.
Or were raised Hindu, at any rate.
> >
Anyhow, the response I'm seeking is on the subject of why ancient writings
use such odd adjectives.
> >
> > The Bible doesn't use those adjectives, so SK's search wouldn't find anything.
> > The Valiant Woman “works with willing hands” - Prov. 31:13
> > A good name is to be chosen rather than great riches, and favor is better than silver or gold. - Prov. 22:1.
> > Whoever is kind to the poor lends to the Lord, and will be repaid in full. - Prov. 19:17
> > Unequal weights are an abomination to the Lord, and false scales are not good. - Prov. 20:23
> >
> > Solon, the Greek sage, too uses adjectives that would be peculiar in modern usage.
> > He calls dutiful people 'Happy'. That would look very odd in English.
> > But I find that usage in the Bible too: Her children rise up and call her happy. Prov 31:28
> > Why a dutiful woman is called valiant and happy rather than dutiful and hardworking is beyond me.

On Sunday, March 5, 2023 at 3:54:46 AM UTC-7, Dingbat wrote:
....

> Solon, the Greek sage, too uses adjectives that would be peculiar in modern usage.
> He calls dutiful people 'Happy'. That would look very odd in English.

Maybe he's making a claim that dutiful people are happy.

> But I find that usage in the Bible too: Her children rise up and call her happy. Prov 31:28
> Why a dutiful woman is called valiant and happy rather than dutiful and hardworking is beyond me.

Maybe it's making the same claim. Or maybe "happy" isn't a good translation.
Here's the Strong's Concordance for that root:

https://biblehub.com/hebrew/strongs_833.htm

You may find it less than enlightening.

Rabbi Zvi A. Yehudah, who I took a couple of classes from, used to say
that Hebrew had no word for "happy" (or "soul").

--
Jerry Friedman

On Sunday, 5 March 2023 at 19:18:15 UTC+8, Dingbat wrote:
> > > Perhaps S K, who might be the only Hindu anti-semite,
> >
> Arindam Banerjee wrote:
> > Skippy is a Tamil Muslim, staunchly devoted to Chennai and his Great Beloved Leader P*.
> >
> Skippy, notwithstanding his nuttiness, nay insanity, on other subjects,
> is a competent scholar of Tamil. All such Tamils I've found are Hindu.
> Or were raised Hindu, at any rate.

I know Muslims fluent in Sanskrit. And Brahmins excelling in Urdu poetry.

Anti-Jew feelings from Hindus are now historic in India, from Israeli support, but once were strong from the far right wing Hindutva types, who held that Jews were bloodsuckers so got what they deserved; while the lefty pseudoHindus ensconced in academia love Jews, to absolute distraction, their great gods being Marx and Einstein and Chaplin. Freud used to be there among them, but these days his glamour has faded somewhat.

For Muslims, the matter is complex. The staunch Muslim will regard Jews as superior to Hindus, out of monotheism, and its metaphysics, but solidarity with Palestinians causes dislike. The love that Protestants bestow upon the Jews, creating their supremacy, causes angst.

So the bogus Jewish physics, the nonsense quantum mechanics, was taught to us at IITKgp by a Muslim professor! While hating them, the Muslims follow what Jews do. Chosen people, after all, what.

> > >
> Anyhow, the response I'm seeking is on the subject of why ancient writings
> use such odd adjectives.
> > >
> > > The Bible doesn't use those adjectives, so SK's search wouldn't find anything.
> > > The Valiant Woman “works with willing hands” - Prov. 31:13
> > > A good name is to be chosen rather than great riches, and favor is better than silver or gold. - Prov. 22:1.
> > > Whoever is kind to the poor lends to the Lord, and will be repaid in full. - Prov. 19:17
> > > Unequal weights are an abomination to the Lord, and false scales are not good. - Prov. 20:23
> > >
> > > Solon, the Greek sage, too uses adjectives that would be peculiar in modern usage.
> > > He calls dutiful people 'Happy'. That would look very odd in English.
> > > But I find that usage in the Bible too: Her children rise up and call her happy. Prov 31:28
> > > Why a dutiful woman is called valiant and happy rather than dutiful and hardworking is beyond me.

On Sunday, March 5, 2023 at 2:40:46 PM UTC-8, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> On Sunday, March 5, 2023 at 3:54:46 AM UTC-7, Dingbat wrote:
> ...
> > Solon, the Greek sage, too uses adjectives that would be peculiar in modern usage.
> > He calls dutiful people 'Happy'. That would look very odd in English.
> Maybe he's making a claim that dutiful people are happy.
>
It's in principle possible to be grumpy and dutiful.
I seem to recall that Johan wasn't happy to perform his assigned duty
even after eventually accepting it as his duty.
>
> > But I find that usage in the Bible too: Her children rise up and call her happy. Prov 31:28
> > Why a dutiful woman is called valiant and happy rather than dutiful and hardworking is beyond me.
> Maybe it's making the same claim. Or maybe "happy" isn't a good translation.
>
I've seen it translated as happy; it isn't always translated that way.
It's happy in Young's Literal Translation but is blessed most English Bibles.
The Amplified Bible (AMPC) seems to try to outdo Young by giving various
alternatives; its meanings are blessed, happy, fortunate, enviable.
>
> Here's the Strong's Concordance for that root:
>
> https://biblehub.com/hebrew/strongs_833.htm
>
> You may find it less than enlightening.
>
Thanks! How do you find the root and look up Strong's
entry for it?
>
> Rabbi Zvi A. Yehudah, who I took a couple of classes from, used to say
> that Hebrew had no word for "happy" (or "soul").
>
Perhaps he meant that no word unambiguosly means happy.
As for soul, spirit is ruha in my church's Malayalam ligturgy
from an Aramaic word. The Hebrew cognate is ruach, AFAIK.
It seems possible that it might be one way to say SOUL.

On Sunday, March 5, 2023 at 8:50:14 PM UTC-8, Dingbat wrote:
> On Sunday, March 5, 2023 at 2:40:46 PM UTC-8, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> > On Sunday, March 5, 2023 at 3:54:46 AM UTC-7, Dingbat wrote:
> > ...
> > > Solon, the Greek sage, too uses adjectives that would be peculiar in modern usage.
> > > He calls dutiful people 'Happy'. That would look very odd in English.
> > Maybe he's making a claim that dutiful people are happy.
> >
> It's in principle possible to be grumpy and dutiful.
> I seem to recall that Johan wasn't happy to perform his assigned duty
> even after eventually accepting it as his duty.
Jonah, that is.

On Sun, 5 Mar 2023 20:50:11 -0800 (PST), Dingbat
<ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com> wrote:

>On Sunday, March 5, 2023 at 2:40:46?PM UTC-8, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>> On Sunday, March 5, 2023 at 3:54:46?AM UTC-7, Dingbat wrote:
>> ...
>> > Solon, the Greek sage, too uses adjectives that would be peculiar in modern usage.
>> > He calls dutiful people 'Happy'. That would look very odd in English.
>> Maybe he's making a claim that dutiful people are happy.
>>
>It's in principle possible to be grumpy and dutiful.
>I seem to recall that Johan wasn't happy to perform his assigned duty
>even after eventually accepting it as his duty.
>>
>> > But I find that usage in the Bible too: Her children rise up and call her happy. Prov 31:28
>> > Why a dutiful woman is called valiant and happy rather than dutiful and hardworking is beyond me.
>> Maybe it's making the same claim. Or maybe "happy" isn't a good translation.
>>
>I've seen it translated as happy; it isn't always translated that way.
>It's happy in Young's Literal Translation but is blessed most English Bibles.
>The Amplified Bible (AMPC) seems to try to outdo Young by giving various
>alternatives; its meanings are blessed, happy, fortunate, enviable.

I know that Garry Wills tackled "the pursuit of happiness" (Life,
liberty, and ...) when he wrote his book on the Declaration
of Independence. He maide it clear that the intended sense
of "happy" was not our familiar sense. What I took away from
reading Wills a few decades ago was that I should think more
of "fulfillment" for being all-smiles. Think less of smiling or beiing
glad, and more of "hap" and "happenstance" -- So, the D of I
meaning is a forerunner of "what you can make of yourself." Or,
the right to Do Your Own Thing.

Hmm. I might still have that book. I'll check.

>>
>> Here's the Strong's Concordance for that root:
>>
>> https://biblehub.com/hebrew/strongs_833.htm
>>
>> You may find it less than enlightening.
>>
>Thanks! How do you find the root and look up Strong's
>entry for it?
>>
>> Rabbi Zvi A. Yehudah, who I took a couple of classes from, used to say
>> that Hebrew had no word for "happy" (or "soul").
>>
>Perhaps he meant that no word unambiguosly means happy.
>As for soul, spirit is ruha in my church's Malayalam ligturgy
>from an Aramaic word. The Hebrew cognate is ruach, AFAIK.
>It seems possible that it might be one way to say SOUL.

--
Rich Ulrich

On Sunday, March 5, 2023 at 10:03:10 PM UTC-8, Rich Ulrich wrote:
> On Sun, 5 Mar 2023 20:50:11 -0800 (PST), Dingbat
> <ranjit_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >On Sunday, March 5, 2023 at 2:40:46?PM UTC-8, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> >> On Sunday, March 5, 2023 at 3:54:46?AM UTC-7, Dingbat wrote:
> >> ...
> >> > Solon, the Greek sage, too uses adjectives that would be peculiar in modern usage.
> >> > He calls dutiful people 'Happy'. That would look very odd in English..
> >> Maybe he's making a claim that dutiful people are happy.
> >>
> >It's in principle possible to be grumpy and dutiful.
> >I seem to recall that Jonah wasn't happy to perform his assigned duty
> >even after eventually accepting it as his duty.
> >>
> >> > But I find that usage in the Bible too: Her children rise up and call her happy. Prov 31:28
> >> > Why a dutiful woman is called valiant and happy rather than dutiful and hardworking is beyond me.
> >> Maybe it's making the same claim. Or maybe "happy" isn't a good translation.
> >>
> >I've seen it translated as happy; it isn't always translated that way.
> >It's happy in Young's Literal Translation but is blessed most English Bibles.
> >The Amplified Bible (AMPC) seems to try to outdo Young by giving various
> >alternatives; its meanings are blessed, happy, fortunate, enviable.
>
> I know that Garry Wills tackled "the pursuit of happiness" (Life,
> liberty, and ...) when he wrote his book on the Declaration
> of Independence. He maide it clear that the intended sense
> of "happy" was not our familiar sense. What I took away from
> reading Wills a few decades ago was that I should think more
> of "fulfillment" for being all-smiles. Think less of smiling or beiing
> glad, and more of "hap" and "happenstance" -- So, the D of I
> meaning is a forerunner of "what you can make of yourself." Or,
> the right to Do Your Own Thing.
>
Interesting, thanks!
Happiness might ensue from successful pursuit of those.
Happiness cannot be pursued; it must ensue. - Viktor E Frankl
in his book Man's Search for Meaning
>
> Hmm. I might still have that book. I'll check.
> >>
> >> Here's the Strong's Concordance for that root:
> >>
> >> https://biblehub.com/hebrew/strongs_833.htm
> >>
> >> You may find it less than enlightening.
> >>
> >Thanks! How do you find the root and look up Strong's
> >entry for it?
> >>
> >> Rabbi Zvi A. Yehudah, who I took a couple of classes from, used to say
> >> that Hebrew had no word for "happy" (or "soul").
> >>
> >Perhaps he meant that no word unambiguosly means happy.
> >As for soul, spirit is ruha in my church's Malayalam ligturgy
> >from an Aramaic word. The Hebrew cognate is ruach, AFAIK.
> >It seems possible that it might be one way to say SOUL.
> --
> Rich Ulrich

On Monday, March 6, 2023 at 12:13:16 AM UTC-5, Dingbat wrote:
> On Sunday, March 5, 2023 at 8:50:14 PM UTC-8, Dingbat wrote:
> > On Sunday, March 5, 2023 at 2:40:46 PM UTC-8, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> > > On Sunday, March 5, 2023 at 3:54:46 AM UTC-7, Dingbat wrote:

> > > > Solon, the Greek sage, too uses adjectives that would be peculiar in modern usage.
> > > > He calls dutiful people 'Happy'. That would look very odd in English.
> > > Maybe he's making a claim that dutiful people are happy.
> > It's in principle possible to be grumpy and dutiful.
>
> > I seem to recall that Johan wasn't happy to perform his assigned duty
> > even after eventually accepting it as his duty.
> Jonah, that is.

I think "glad" fits better there than "happy."

On Monday, March 6, 2023 at 1:03:10 AM UTC-5, Rich Ulrich wrote:
> On Sun, 5 Mar 2023 20:50:11 -0800 (PST), Dingbat
> <ranjit_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >On Sunday, March 5, 2023 at 2:40:46?PM UTC-8, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> >> On Sunday, March 5, 2023 at 3:54:46?AM UTC-7, Dingbat wrote:

> >> > Solon, the Greek sage, too uses adjectives that would be peculiar in modern usage.
> >> > He calls dutiful people 'Happy'. That would look very odd in English..
> >> Maybe he's making a claim that dutiful people are happy.
> >It's in principle possible to be grumpy and dutiful.
> >I seem to recall that [Jonah] wasn't happy to perform his assigned duty
> >even after eventually accepting it as his duty.
> >> > But I find that usage in the Bible too: Her children rise up and call her happy. Prov 31:28
> >> > Why a dutiful woman is called valiant and happy rather than dutiful and hardworking is beyond me.
> >> Maybe it's making the same claim. Or maybe "happy" isn't a good translation.
> >I've seen it translated as happy; it isn't always translated that way.
> >It's happy in Young's Literal Translation but is blessed most English Bibles.
> >The Amplified Bible (AMPC) seems to try to outdo Young by giving various
> >alternatives; its meanings are blessed, happy, fortunate, enviable.
>
> I know that Garry Wills tackled "the pursuit of happiness" (Life,
> liberty, and ...) when he wrote his book on the Declaration
> of Independence. He maide it clear that the intended sense
> of "happy" was not our familiar sense. What I took away from
> reading Wills a few decades ago was that I should think more
> of "fulfillment" for being all-smiles. Think less of smiling or beiing
> glad, and more of "hap" and "happenstance" -- So, the D of I
> meaning is a forerunner of "what you can make of yourself." Or,
> the right to Do Your Own Thing.

Doesn't he also stress that it was Jefferson who changed
Locke's "life, liberty, and property" to the text we have?

> Hmm. I might still have that book. I'll check.

On Sunday, March 5, 2023 at 9:50:14 PM UTC-7, Dingbat wrote:
> On Sunday, March 5, 2023 at 2:40:46 PM UTC-8, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> > On Sunday, March 5, 2023 at 3:54:46 AM UTC-7, Dingbat wrote:
> > ...
> > > Solon, the Greek sage, too uses adjectives that would be peculiar in modern usage.
> > > He calls dutiful people 'Happy'. That would look very odd in English.
> > Maybe he's making a claim that dutiful people are happy.
> >
> It's in principle possible to be grumpy and dutiful.
> I seem to recall that Johan wasn't happy to perform his assigned duty
> even after eventually accepting it as his duty.
> >
> > > But I find that usage in the Bible too: Her children rise up and call her happy. Prov 31:28
> > > Why a dutiful woman is called valiant and happy rather than dutiful and hardworking is beyond me.
> > Maybe it's making the same claim. Or maybe "happy" isn't a good translation.
> >
> I've seen it translated as happy; it isn't always translated that way.
> It's happy in Young's Literal Translation but is blessed most English Bibles.
> The Amplified Bible (AMPC) seems to try to outdo Young by giving various
> alternatives; its meanings are blessed, happy, fortunate, enviable.
> >
> > Here's the Strong's Concordance for that root:
> >
> > https://biblehub.com/hebrew/strongs_833.htm
> >
> > You may find it less than enlightening.
> >
> Thanks! How do you find the root and look up Strong's
> entry for it?

I looked up the verse at biblehub.com, then clicked on "Hebrew". That
gives you, among other things, a link to the concordance for each word.

> > Rabbi Zvi A. Yehudah, who I took a couple of classes from, used to say
> > that Hebrew had no word for "happy" (or "soul").
> >
> Perhaps he meant that no word unambiguosly means happy.

No, he meant that no Hebrew word expresses what "happy" does. He said
the word we're talking about meant something more like "fulfilled" (see
Rich's post).

> As for soul, spirit is ruha in my church's Malayalam ligturgy
> from an Aramaic word. The Hebrew cognate is ruach, AFAIK.

Yes, "ruach" means "wind" or "spirit".

> It seems possible that it might be one way to say SOUL.

I'm certainly not clear on the distinction between "soul" and "spirit" [*].

Rabbi Yehudah was not a native speaker of English and may not have
understood the range of meanings of "soul". I suspect in retrospect
that he was thinking primarily of the Christian meaning of something
non-physical that is detached at death and survives.

[*] A high school friend told that his grandmother and her Methodist
friends had spent some time arguing sweetly about whether animals
have souls or merely spirits. This question may be important to
Christians who want to be reunited with their pets in Heaven.

--
Jerry Friedman

On Mon, 6 Mar 2023 06:27:50 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels"
<grammatim@verizon.net> wrote:

>On Monday, March 6, 2023 at 1:03:10?AM UTC-5, Rich Ulrich wrote:
>> On Sun, 5 Mar 2023 20:50:11 -0800 (PST), Dingbat
>> <ranjit_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>> >On Sunday, March 5, 2023 at 2:40:46?PM UTC-8, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>> >> On Sunday, March 5, 2023 at 3:54:46?AM UTC-7, Dingbat wrote:
>
>> >> > Solon, the Greek sage, too uses adjectives that would be peculiar in modern usage.
>> >> > He calls dutiful people 'Happy'. That would look very odd in English.
>> >> Maybe he's making a claim that dutiful people are happy.
>> >It's in principle possible to be grumpy and dutiful.
>> >I seem to recall that [Jonah] wasn't happy to perform his assigned duty
>> >even after eventually accepting it as his duty.
>> >> > But I find that usage in the Bible too: Her children rise up and call her happy. Prov 31:28
>> >> > Why a dutiful woman is called valiant and happy rather than dutiful and hardworking is beyond me.
>> >> Maybe it's making the same claim. Or maybe "happy" isn't a good translation.
>> >I've seen it translated as happy; it isn't always translated that way.
>> >It's happy in Young's Literal Translation but is blessed most English Bibles.
>> >The Amplified Bible (AMPC) seems to try to outdo Young by giving various
>> >alternatives; its meanings are blessed, happy, fortunate, enviable.
>>
>> I know that Garry Wills tackled "the pursuit of happiness" (Life,
>> liberty, and ...) when he wrote his book on the Declaration
>> of Independence. He maide it clear that the intended sense
>> of "happy" was not our familiar sense. What I took away from
>> reading Wills a few decades ago was that I should think more
>> of "fulfillment" for being all-smiles. Think less of smiling or beiing
>> glad, and more of "hap" and "happenstance" -- So, the D of I
>> meaning is a forerunner of "what you can make of yourself." Or,
>> the right to Do Your Own Thing.
>
>Doesn't he also stress that it was Jefferson who changed
>Locke's "life, liberty, and property" to the text we have?
>

Yes, Jefferson changed Locke's 'property' to 'pursuit of happiness.'
I don't remember what Wills attributed that change to.

I also don't recall what Wills said about the line earlier, "All men
are created equal" -- recently I've read that "All men are /born/
equal" exists in contemporaneous documents, but I don't know which
term came first, went viral and mutated.

Lately, it has occurred to me that "men are created" might hint at
the difference between infant and adult -- families totally control
the rights that infants and children have for liberty and pursuit of
happiness, up until manhood. Until the modern era, families also
controlled 'life'. ("I brounght you into this world, I can take you
out of it.")

>> Hmm. I might still have that book. I'll check.

--
Rich Ulrich

* Jerry Friedman
<e4de83cc-afdd-4b19-8026-d3bd6ff8ac8fn@googlegroups.com> : Wrote on Mon,
6 Mar 2023 06:33:03 -0800 (PST):

> On Sunday, March 5, 2023 at 9:50:14 PM UTC-7, Dingbat wrote:
>> On Sunday, March 5, 2023 at 2:40:46 PM UTC-8, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>> > On Sunday, March 5, 2023 at 3:54:46 AM UTC-7, Dingbat wrote:
>> > ...
>> > > Solon, the Greek sage, too uses adjectives that would be
>> > > peculiar in modern usage.
>> > > He calls dutiful people 'Happy'. That would look very odd in English.
>> > Maybe he's making a claim that dutiful people are happy.
>> >
>> It's in principle possible to be grumpy and dutiful.
>> I seem to recall that Johan wasn't happy to perform his assigned duty
>> even after eventually accepting it as his duty.
>> >
>> > > But I find that usage in the Bible too: Her children rise up and
>> > > call her happy. Prov 31:28
>> > > Why a dutiful woman is called valiant and happy rather than
>> > > dutiful and hardworking is beyond me.
>> > Maybe it's making the same claim. Or maybe "happy" isn't a good
>> > translation.
>> >
>> I've seen it translated as happy; it isn't always translated that way.
>> It's happy in Young's Literal Translation but is blessed most English Bibles.
>> The Amplified Bible (AMPC) seems to try to outdo Young by giving various
>> alternatives; its meanings are blessed, happy, fortunate, enviable.
>> >
>> > Here's the Strong's Concordance for that root:
>> >
>> > https://biblehub.com/hebrew/strongs_833.htm
>> >
>> > You may find it less than enlightening.
>> >
>> Thanks! How do you find the root and look up Strong's
>> entry for it?
>
> I looked up the verse at biblehub.com, then clicked on "Hebrew". That
> gives you, among other things, a link to the concordance for each word.
>
>> > Rabbi Zvi A. Yehudah, who I took a couple of classes from, used to say
>> > that Hebrew had no word for "happy" (or "soul").
>> >
>> Perhaps he meant that no word unambiguosly means happy.
>
> No, he meant that no Hebrew word expresses what "happy" does. He said
> the word we're talking about meant something more like "fulfilled" (see
> Rich's post).
>
>> As for soul, spirit is ruha in my church's Malayalam ligturgy
>> from an Aramaic word. The Hebrew cognate is ruach, AFAIK.
>
> Yes, "ruach" means "wind" or "spirit".
>
>> It seems possible that it might be one way to say SOUL.
>
> I'm certainly not clear on the distinction between "soul" and "spirit"
> [*].
>
> Rabbi Yehudah was not a native speaker of English and may not have
> understood the range of meanings of "soul". I suspect in retrospect
> that he was thinking primarily of the Christian meaning of something
> non-physical that is detached at death and survives.

"Nefesh"

I posted this SBL-style piece of scholarship on the issues the last time
Dingbat started a thread on "New Tanakh translation deprecates word
soul"

https://www.sbl-site.org/assets/pdfs/pubs/9781628370775_OA.pdf

Steiner, Richard C. Disembodied souls: the Nefesh in Israel and
kindred spirits in the ancient Near East, with an appendix on the
Katumuwa Inscription. SBL Press, 2015.

>
> [*] A high school friend told that his grandmother and her Methodist
> friends had spent some time arguing sweetly about whether animals
> have souls or merely spirits. This question may be important to
> Christians who want to be reunited with their pets in Heaven.

On Monday, March 6, 2023 at 11:16:38 PM UTC-7, Madhu wrote:
> * Jerry Friedman
> <e4de83cc-afdd-4b19...@googlegroups.com> : Wrote on Mon,
> 6 Mar 2023 06:33:03 -0800 (PST):
> > On Sunday, March 5, 2023 at 9:50:14 PM UTC-7, Dingbat wrote:
> >> On Sunday, March 5, 2023 at 2:40:46 PM UTC-8, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> >> > On Sunday, March 5, 2023 at 3:54:46 AM UTC-7, Dingbat wrote:
> >> > ...
> >> > > Solon, the Greek sage, too uses adjectives that would be
> >> > > peculiar in modern usage.
> >> > > He calls dutiful people 'Happy'. That would look very odd in English.
> >> > Maybe he's making a claim that dutiful people are happy.
> >> >
> >> It's in principle possible to be grumpy and dutiful.
> >> I seem to recall that Johan wasn't happy to perform his assigned duty
> >> even after eventually accepting it as his duty.
> >> >
> >> > > But I find that usage in the Bible too: Her children rise up and
> >> > > call her happy. Prov 31:28
> >> > > Why a dutiful woman is called valiant and happy rather than
> >> > > dutiful and hardworking is beyond me.
> >> > Maybe it's making the same claim. Or maybe "happy" isn't a good
> >> > translation.
> >> >
> >> I've seen it translated as happy; it isn't always translated that way.
> >> It's happy in Young's Literal Translation but is blessed most English Bibles.
> >> The Amplified Bible (AMPC) seems to try to outdo Young by giving various
> >> alternatives; its meanings are blessed, happy, fortunate, enviable.
> >> >
> >> > Here's the Strong's Concordance for that root:
> >> >
> >> > https://biblehub.com/hebrew/strongs_833.htm
> >> >
> >> > You may find it less than enlightening.
> >> >
> >> Thanks! How do you find the root and look up Strong's
> >> entry for it?
> >
> > I looked up the verse at biblehub.com, then clicked on "Hebrew". That
> > gives you, among other things, a link to the concordance for each word.
> >
> >> > Rabbi Zvi A. Yehudah, who I took a couple of classes from, used to say
> >> > that Hebrew had no word for "happy" (or "soul").
> >> >
> >> Perhaps he meant that no word unambiguosly means happy.
> >
> > No, he meant that no Hebrew word expresses what "happy" does. He said
> > the word we're talking about meant something more like "fulfilled" (see
> > Rich's post).
> >
> >> As for soul, spirit is ruha in my church's Malayalam ligturgy
> >> from an Aramaic word. The Hebrew cognate is ruach, AFAIK.
> >
> > Yes, "ruach" means "wind" or "spirit".
> >
> >> It seems possible that it might be one way to say SOUL.
> >
> > I'm certainly not clear on the distinction between "soul" and "spirit"
> > [*].
> >
> > Rabbi Yehudah was not a native speaker of English and may not have
> > understood the range of meanings of "soul". I suspect in retrospect
> > that he was thinking primarily of the Christian meaning of something
> > non-physical that is detached at death and survives.

> "Nefesh"

I'm sure he specifically mentioned that word and pretty sure he said
it was more like "being". As I implied above, I don't know any more
details about his reasons for his statement.
> I posted this SBL-style piece of scholarship on the issues the last time
> Dingbat started a thread on "New Tanakh translation deprecates word
> soul"
>
> https://www.sbl-site.org/assets/pdfs/pubs/9781628370775_OA.pdf
>
> Steiner, Richard C. Disembodied souls: the Nefesh in Israel and
> kindred spirits in the ancient Near East, with an appendix on the
> Katumuwa Inscription. SBL Press, 2015.
....

Thanks, I didn't see that before. What I read seems interesting. I don't
know what Rabbi Yehudah would have said about it. (It appeared the
year after he died). I can see a basis for an argument that the women
reproved in Ezekiel 13:18-23 were lying when they said they could trap
souls, but I imagine Steiner addresses that.

--
Jerry Friedman

* Jerry Friedman <1bac11fe-d500-4c5a-9b80-9403fb6d8184n @googlegroups.com> :
Wrote on Tue, 7 Mar 2023 07:29:14 -0800 (PST):
> On Monday, March 6, 2023 at 11:16:38 PM UTC-7, Madhu wrote:
>> "Nefesh"
>
> I'm sure he specifically mentioned that word and pretty sure he said
> it was more like "being". As I implied above, I don't know any more
> details about his reasons for his statement.

I understand the usual objection is because of the association of soul
with the greek "immortal soul" which is also unwittingly adopted into
christianity. IMO that objection is not valid once you admit that the
[hebrew concept of] "soul" can die.

The same set of issues plague hindu philosophy with atma taking multiple
meanings for "self" "soul" "being" "body", (again with the greek
influence)and here it is much exploited in in interpreting the
"canonical texts" to come up with and suppott all sorts of theories.

On Monday, March 6, 2023 at 6:33:06 AM UTC-8, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> On Sunday, March 5, 2023 at 9:50:14 PM UTC-7, Dingbat wrote:
> > On Sunday, March 5, 2023 at 2:40:46 PM UTC-8, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> > > On Sunday, March 5, 2023 at 3:54:46 AM UTC-7, Dingbat wrote:
> > > ...
> > > > Solon, the Greek sage, too uses adjectives that would be peculiar in modern usage.
> > > > He calls dutiful people 'Happy'. That would look very odd in English.
> > > Maybe he's making a claim that dutiful people are happy.
> > >
> > It's in principle possible to be grumpy and dutiful.
> > I seem to recall that Johan wasn't happy to perform his assigned duty
> > even after eventually accepting it as his duty.
> > >
> > > > But I find that usage in the Bible too: Her children rise up and call her happy. Prov 31:28
> > I've seen it translated as happy; it isn't always translated that way.
> > It's happy in Young's Literal Translation but blessed in most English Bibles.
> > The Amplified Bible (AMPC) seems to try to outdo Young by giving various
> > alternatives; its meanings are blessed, happy, fortunate, enviable.
> > >
> > > Here's the Strong's Concordance for that root:
> > >
> > > https://biblehub.com/hebrew/strongs_833.htm
> > >
> > > You may find it less than enlightening.
> > >
> > Thanks! How do you find the root and look up Strong's
> > entry for it?
>
> I looked up the verse at biblehub.com, then clicked on "Hebrew". That
> gives you, among other things, a link to the concordance for each word.
> > > Rabbi Zvi A. Yehudah, who I took a couple of classes from, used to say
> > > that Hebrew had no word for "happy" (or "soul").
> > >
> > Perhaps he meant that no word unambiguosly means happy.
> No, he meant that no Hebrew word expresses what "happy" does. He said
> the word we're talking about meant something more like "fulfilled" (see
> Rich's post).
>
Rich's post is enlightening but I'm more confused when I click on Hebrew.
It goes to this page: <https://biblehub.com/proverbs/31-28.htm#lexicon>
where the reference to a Strong's Concordance entry indicates that her
children are calling her straight, honest or proper; I don't see fulfilled.

On Tuesday, March 7, 2023 at 6:03:48 PM UTC-7, Dingbat wrote:
> On Monday, March 6, 2023 at 6:33:06 AM UTC-8, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> > On Sunday, March 5, 2023 at 9:50:14 PM UTC-7, Dingbat wrote:
> > > On Sunday, March 5, 2023 at 2:40:46 PM UTC-8, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> > > > On Sunday, March 5, 2023 at 3:54:46 AM UTC-7, Dingbat wrote:
> > > > ...
> > > > > Solon, the Greek sage, too uses adjectives that would be peculiar in modern usage.
> > > > > He calls dutiful people 'Happy'. That would look very odd in English.
> > > > Maybe he's making a claim that dutiful people are happy.
> > > >
> > > It's in principle possible to be grumpy and dutiful.
> > > I seem to recall that Johan wasn't happy to perform his assigned duty
> > > even after eventually accepting it as his duty.
> > > >
> > > > > But I find that usage in the Bible too: Her children rise up and call her happy. Prov 31:28
> > > I've seen it translated as happy; it isn't always translated that way..
> > > It's happy in Young's Literal Translation but blessed in most English Bibles.
> > > The Amplified Bible (AMPC) seems to try to outdo Young by giving various
> > > alternatives; its meanings are blessed, happy, fortunate, enviable.
> > > >
> > > > Here's the Strong's Concordance for that root:
> > > >
> > > > https://biblehub.com/hebrew/strongs_833.htm
> > > >
> > > > You may find it less than enlightening.
> > > >
> > > Thanks! How do you find the root and look up Strong's
> > > entry for it?
> >
> > I looked up the verse at biblehub.com, then clicked on "Hebrew". That
> > gives you, among other things, a link to the concordance for each word.

> > > > Rabbi Zvi A. Yehudah, who I took a couple of classes from, used to say
> > > > that Hebrew had no word for "happy" (or "soul").
> > > >
> > > Perhaps he meant that no word unambiguosly means happy.
> > No, he meant that no Hebrew word expresses what "happy" does. He said
> > the word we're talking about meant something more like "fulfilled" (see
> > Rich's post).
> >
> Rich's post is enlightening but I'm more confused when I click on Hebrew.
> It goes to this page: <https://biblehub.com/proverbs/31-28.htm#lexicon>
> where the reference to a Strong's Concordance entry indicates that her
> children are calling her straight, honest or proper; I don't see fulfilled.

Rabbi Yehudah, Mr. Strong, and most translators disagree with each other.
(If you click on the link to the concordance, you'll see it quotes three translations,
which use "bless her" and "call her blessed".) I can't tell you who's right.

--
Jerry Friedman

On Wednesday, 8 March 2023 at 03:58:38 UTC+11, Madhu wrote:
> * Jerry Friedman <1bac11fe-d500-4c5a-9b80-9403fb6d8184n @googlegroups.com> :
> Wrote on Tue, 7 Mar 2023 07:29:14 -0800 (PST):
> > On Monday, March 6, 2023 at 11:16:38 PM UTC-7, Madhu wrote:
> >> "Nefesh"
> >
> > I'm sure he specifically mentioned that word and pretty sure he said
> > it was more like "being". As I implied above, I don't know any more
> > details about his reasons for his statement.
> I understand the usual objection is because of the association of soul
> with the greek "immortal soul" which is also unwittingly adopted into
> christianity. IMO that objection is not valid once you admit that the
> [hebrew concept of] "soul" can die.
>
> The same set of issues plague hindu philosophy with atma taking multiple
> meanings for "self" "soul" "being" "body", (again with the greek
> influence)and here it is much exploited in in interpreting the
> "canonical texts" to come up with and suppott all sorts of theories.

What rubbish, only natural, from the honeyboyo pseudoHindu.

On Tuesday, March 7, 2023 at 9:33:14 PM UTC-7, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> On Tuesday, March 7, 2023 at 6:03:48 PM UTC-7, Dingbat wrote:
> > On Monday, March 6, 2023 at 6:33:06 AM UTC-8, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> > > On Sunday, March 5, 2023 at 9:50:14 PM UTC-7, Dingbat wrote:
> > > > On Sunday, March 5, 2023 at 2:40:46 PM UTC-8, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> > > > > On Sunday, March 5, 2023 at 3:54:46 AM UTC-7, Dingbat wrote:
> > > > > ...
> > > > > > Solon, the Greek sage, too uses adjectives that would be peculiar in modern usage.
> > > > > > He calls dutiful people 'Happy'. That would look very odd in English.
> > > > > Maybe he's making a claim that dutiful people are happy.
> > > > >
> > > > It's in principle possible to be grumpy and dutiful.
> > > > I seem to recall that Johan wasn't happy to perform his assigned duty
> > > > even after eventually accepting it as his duty.
> > > > >
> > > > > > But I find that usage in the Bible too: Her children rise up and call her happy. Prov 31:28
> > > > I've seen it translated as happy; it isn't always translated that way.
> > > > It's happy in Young's Literal Translation but blessed in most English Bibles.
> > > > The Amplified Bible (AMPC) seems to try to outdo Young by giving various
> > > > alternatives; its meanings are blessed, happy, fortunate, enviable.
> > > > >
> > > > > Here's the Strong's Concordance for that root:
> > > > >
> > > > > https://biblehub.com/hebrew/strongs_833.htm
> > > > >
> > > > > You may find it less than enlightening.
> > > > >
> > > > Thanks! How do you find the root and look up Strong's
> > > > entry for it?
> > >
> > > I looked up the verse at biblehub.com, then clicked on "Hebrew". That
> > > gives you, among other things, a link to the concordance for each word.
>
> > > > > Rabbi Zvi A. Yehudah, who I took a couple of classes from, used to say
> > > > > that Hebrew had no word for "happy" (or "soul").
> > > > >
> > > > Perhaps he meant that no word unambiguosly means happy.
> > > No, he meant that no Hebrew word expresses what "happy" does. He said
> > > the word we're talking about meant something more like "fulfilled" (see
> > > Rich's post).
> > >
> > Rich's post is enlightening but I'm more confused when I click on Hebrew.
> > It goes to this page: <https://biblehub.com/proverbs/31-28.htm#lexicon>
> > where the reference to a Strong's Concordance entry indicates that her
> > children are calling her straight, honest or proper; I don't see fulfilled.

> Rabbi Yehudah, Mr. Strong, and most translators disagree with each other.
> (If you click on the link to the concordance, you'll see it quotes three translations,
> which use "bless her" and "call her blessed".) I can't tell you who's right.

I should add that my classes with Rabbi Yehudah were forty-some years
ago, so I may not be remembering right.

--
Jerry Friedman

On Tue, 7 Mar 2023 20:33:11 -0800 (PST), Jerry Friedman
<jerry.friedman99@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Tuesday, March 7, 2023 at 6:03:48?PM UTC-7, Dingbat wrote:
>> On Monday, March 6, 2023 at 6:33:06?AM UTC-8, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>> > On Sunday, March 5, 2023 at 9:50:14?PM UTC-7, Dingbat wrote:
>> > > On Sunday, March 5, 2023 at 2:40:46?PM UTC-8, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>> > > > On Sunday, March 5, 2023 at 3:54:46?AM UTC-7, Dingbat wrote:
>> > > > ...
>> > > > > Solon, the Greek sage, too uses adjectives that would be peculiar in modern usage.
>> > > > > He calls dutiful people 'Happy'. That would look very odd in English.
>> > > > Maybe he's making a claim that dutiful people are happy.
>> > > >
>> > > It's in principle possible to be grumpy and dutiful.
>> > > I seem to recall that Johan wasn't happy to perform his assigned duty
>> > > even after eventually accepting it as his duty.
>> > > >
>> > > > > But I find that usage in the Bible too: Her children rise up and call her happy. Prov 31:28
>> > > I've seen it translated as happy; it isn't always translated that way.
>> > > It's happy in Young's Literal Translation but blessed in most English Bibles.
>> > > The Amplified Bible (AMPC) seems to try to outdo Young by giving various
>> > > alternatives; its meanings are blessed, happy, fortunate, enviable.
>> > > >
>> > > > Here's the Strong's Concordance for that root:
>> > > >
>> > > > https://biblehub.com/hebrew/strongs_833.htm
>> > > >
>> > > > You may find it less than enlightening.
>> > > >
>> > > Thanks! How do you find the root and look up Strong's
>> > > entry for it?
>> >
>> > I looked up the verse at biblehub.com, then clicked on "Hebrew". That
>> > gives you, among other things, a link to the concordance for each word.
>
>> > > > Rabbi Zvi A. Yehudah, who I took a couple of classes from, used to say
>> > > > that Hebrew had no word for "happy" (or "soul").
>> > > >
>> > > Perhaps he meant that no word unambiguosly means happy.
>> > No, he meant that no Hebrew word expresses what "happy" does. He said
>> > the word we're talking about meant something more like "fulfilled" (see
>> > Rich's post).
>> >
>> Rich's post is enlightening but I'm more confused when I click on Hebrew.
>> It goes to this page: <https://biblehub.com/proverbs/31-28.htm#lexicon>
>> where the reference to a Strong's Concordance entry indicates that her
>> children are calling her straight, honest or proper; I don't see fulfilled.
>
>Rabbi Yehudah, Mr. Strong, and most translators disagree with each other.
>(If you click on the link to the concordance, you'll see it quotes three translations,
>which use "bless her" and "call her blessed".) I can't tell you who's right.

My notions of feeling fulfillment and feeling blessed have a lot
of overlap.

Maybe "blessed" is closer to "happiness" but the various verb forms
of bless have not been in my active vocabulary. I'm suddenly gaining
a recognition of the serious good-wishes that might be implied by
"Bless you." That has always before seemed to me like a mild
variation on politely saying "Thanks."

--
Rich Ulrich