This is not a viable weapon for the endgame. It's one of the weapons that
is reduced by creature size. Additionally, there is only one prototype mace
in the weapons, meaning that it won't show up very commonly for the
chance to find a blessed enchanted mace. If I do it again, I'll try for Mjollnir
or Excalibur. When the unicorns start showing up, it's time to retreat. 3.5 average damage versus a unicorn is a loss every time. Neutral priests were
suggested, but it seems that might as well be lawful for the chance at
Excalibur. I can't remember the stated benefit of neutral alignment.

On Sunday, December 11, 2022 at 5:44:03 PM UTC-5, Yosemite Sam wrote:
> This is not a viable weapon for the endgame. It's one of the weapons that
> is reduced by creature size. Additionally, there is only one prototype mace
> in the weapons, meaning that it won't show up very commonly for the
> chance to find a blessed enchanted mace. If I do it again, I'll try for Mjollnir
> or Excalibur. When the unicorns start showing up, it's time to retreat. 3..5 average damage versus a unicorn is a loss every time. Neutral priests were
> suggested, but it seems that might as well be lawful for the chance at
> Excalibur. I can't remember the stated benefit of neutral alignment.

Neutral priest is kind of my specialty and my favorite class/race combination for Nethack. Neutral priest has an amazing array of possible artifact weapons. Magicbane and Mjollnir being two of them which can be the first sacrifice gift. I have used mace just fine up till the castle, but after the castle have used an artifact weapon. Since priests start with holy water, if a altar is not available they can use magic lamp and starting holy water to wish up a powerful artifact weapon. From there if they get paid for protection and test every piece of armor in the mines they should be able to get a pretty respectable armor class. Amulet of reflection or shield of reflection from medusa's also helps.

Priests are also bones masters, meaning that since they start with holy water and can sense the beatitude of objects, as well as possibly even STARTING with the remove curse spell, they can really clean up when finding a bones file (and any artifact weapons in the bones).

They can get Vorpal Blade as a crowning gift, which, while not a GREAT artifact weapon is serviceable until the endgame as long as you bribe demons and use other tactics against riders and the wizard (wand of death, for instance).

Note that getting excalibur doesn't unlock basic for lawful priests, so you need to sacrifice until you get a longsword (of any kind), and then dip to get it. I have had lawful priests simply run it with excalibur unskilled in the early game. Excalibur is an excellent weapon.

On Monday, December 12, 2022 at 2:17:19 AM UTC-6, magicby...@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Sunday, December 11, 2022 at 5:44:03 PM UTC-5, Yosemite Sam wrote:
> > This is not a viable weapon for the endgame. It's one of the weapons that
> > is reduced by creature size. Additionally, there is only one prototype mace
> > in the weapons, meaning that it won't show up very commonly for the
> > chance to find a blessed enchanted mace. If I do it again, I'll try for Mjollnir
> > or Excalibur. When the unicorns start showing up, it's time to retreat. 3.5 average damage versus a unicorn is a loss every time. Neutral priests were
> > suggested, but it seems that might as well be lawful for the chance at
> > Excalibur. I can't remember the stated benefit of neutral alignment.
> Neutral priest is kind of my specialty and my favorite class/race combination for Nethack. Neutral priest has an amazing array of possible artifact weapons. Magicbane and Mjollnir being two of them which can be the first sacrifice gift. I have used mace just fine up till the castle, but after the castle have used an artifact weapon. Since priests start with holy water, if a altar is not available they can use magic lamp and starting holy water to wish up a powerful artifact weapon. From there if they get paid for protection and test every piece of armor in the mines they should be able to get a pretty respectable armor class. Amulet of reflection or shield of reflection from medusa's also helps.
>
> Priests are also bones masters, meaning that since they start with holy water and can sense the beatitude of objects, as well as possibly even STARTING with the remove curse spell, they can really clean up when finding a bones file (and any artifact weapons in the bones).

That's useful. I had seen the potions as merely a defense against lycanthropy since
nothing seems to need blessing at the beginning.

Lycanthropy got me in a few games some months ago, but now I see that patience
wins over against it. I guess I just had to learn not to pray while polymorphed.

On Tue, 13 Dec 2022 20:18:33 -0800 (PST), Yosemite Sam wrote:

> nothing seems to need blessing at the beginning.

Don't forget scrolls and potions. If nothing else, scrolls of identify.
> Lycanthropy got me in a few games some months ago

Ranged killing and most cloaks or mithril should reduce the likelihood,
considerably.

BeAr
--
===========================================================================
= What do you mean with: "Perfection is always an illusion"? =
===============================================================--(Oops!)===

The idea that early blessing is unimportant is false.

Scrolls around the 60-90 range may be enchant weapon or enchant armor. All scrolls under 100 are safe to read if blessed.

This means that, even unidentified, you can bless these scrolls for a SERIOUS, even game winning boon. Mace starts at +1, and with only a single blessed scroll you can get it up to +4.
That's basically 1/2 of a good artifact weapon. It increases your hit probability MASSIVELY and also gives you a lot more damage. Likewise an early blessed scroll of enchant armor can really help too. Now you have a cloak you can wear till the endgame which could be as high as a total of +5 to AC (remember just a normal robe is +2 AC) with just a single blessed scroll of enchant armor. Combine this with regular armor found around the dungeon and Priests can be a real AC tank.

While we're on AC you should try on every armor you find, always. There's an average of +5 AC or more to be gained by trying on every piece of armor you find in the gnomish mines up to sokoban. Using both techniques, it's not difficult to get a priest to -5 to -10 by the end of the first two legs of the journey through the dungeon, and that's also not counting donating money for protection.

Other players might not find a co-aligned altar in the early game. This also means you can't bless any magic lamps that you price ID, while priests will get a wish earlier. A wish earlier means more power earlier. It translates to more survivability.

Let's not forget that blessed spellbooks means that you can instantly read any spellbook GUARANTEED. As a priest this means you can quickly get access to wizard spells such as force bolt and magic missile, which can turn you into a powerhouse as well.

Blessed items are also very useful: blessed unicorn horn and blessed bag of holding sure are great. Blessed darts are less likely to break and get lost!

Even blessing your weapon provides extra damage against undead. As a priest you should just in the early game convert nearly every potion you see to holy water and use it to get more powerful.

Starting holy water is definately an advantage. If you do the gnomish mines and get the "gnome king's wine cellar" this will also give you potions that you know aren't part of the alchemy group, so you can name them and freely convert them to water and then holy water, and with 7-10 potions of holy water you can really up your game.

On 14.12.2022 08:26, Chris Bowers wrote:
> The idea that early blessing is unimportant is false.

That it would be unimportant is certainly not true; but OTOH the
other poster just said:
"[...] since nothing seems to need blessing at the beginning."

And I can follow that observation for most cases. So allow me to
describe my experiences and practices...

First I don't carry the holy water with me (unless I have a sack)
to avoid these precious potions getting lost (traps, wands, nymphs,
whatever); initially (early game) they reside in my dlvl:1 stash
(or sometimes I take just one potion with me; it depends).

>
> Scrolls around the 60-90 range may be enchant weapon or enchant
> armor. All scrolls under 100 are safe to read if blessed. [...]

Without need I don't read scrolls. Once they get price-identified
it depends on the actual character (and on the findings thus far).
Enchanting weapons is the most important. Nonetheless in games I
might decide to delay enchantment. For priests enchanting weapons
might be very advisable, for some other roles less, again depending
on the game (e.g. what weapon types you want to focus on, existence
of an early altar, etc.). While it is certainly useful to enchant
your armor I abstain from that if it is a mundane piece that might
get destroyed during early game. Magical pieces are the preferred
items for enchantment, specifically boots, gloves, helmets. Priests
specifically, though, don't necessarily need enchantments of mundane
armor because of the intrinsic BUC-identification they have; as you
say, they might try on every non-cursed piece of armor to maximize
AC (depending on lucky findings, of course).

The enthusiasm concerning holy water is in practice beyond me. Of
course your examples are valid; if you find a magic lamp you can
use your holy water to bless it for a good chance of a wish. Or if
you happen to find a cloak of protection and enchant it by +3 that's
great. Only if things evolve differently than the advertised optimum
(getting only +1 with the blessed scroll, getting the cloak burned
or rotted and effectively a -3 loss of AC). The reality is somewhere
in between.

Once you have the early game developed these potions get more useful.

WRT Yosemity Sam's mention of curing lycanthropy; I usually forget
about that feature. Priests, though, start with wolfsbane, so that
they can use the holy water for the other applications mentioned.

Janis

On Wednesday, December 14, 2022 at 1:26:09 AM UTC-6, magicby...@yahoo.com wrote:
> The idea that early blessing is unimportant is false.
>
> Scrolls around the 60-90 range may be enchant weapon or enchant armor. All scrolls under 100 are safe to read if blessed.
>
> This means that, even unidentified, you can bless these scrolls for a SERIOUS, even game winning boon. Mace starts at +1, and with only a single blessed scroll you can get it up to +4.
> That's basically 1/2 of a good artifact weapon. It increases your hit probability MASSIVELY and also gives you a lot more damage. Likewise an early blessed scroll of enchant armor can really help too. Now you have a cloak you can wear till the endgame which could be as high as a total of +5 to AC (remember just a normal robe is +2 AC) with just a single blessed scroll of enchant armor. Combine this with regular armor found around the dungeon and Priests can be a real AC tank.
>
> While we're on AC you should try on every armor you find, always. There's an average of +5 AC or more to be gained by trying on every piece of armor you find in the gnomish mines up to sokoban. Using both techniques, it's not difficult to get a priest to -5 to -10 by the end of the first two legs of the journey through the dungeon, and that's also not counting donating money for protection.
>
> Other players might not find a co-aligned altar in the early game. This also means you can't bless any magic lamps that you price ID, while priests will get a wish earlier. A wish earlier means more power earlier. It translates to more survivability.
>
> Let's not forget that blessed spellbooks means that you can instantly read any spellbook GUARANTEED. As a priest this means you can quickly get access to wizard spells such as force bolt and magic missile, which can turn you into a powerhouse as well.

Corbin, a neutral priest has six spells, four of them (gone). Already got Mjollnir. Was looking
to do some more sacrificing. Went back and found the spellbook of create monster which was
in starting inventory. It was never blessed. Unfortunately, two attempts to read it resulted in
spellbook crumbling to dust. Oh well. Should have taken the step to bless it too. There is a bag
of tricks and a wand of create monster in stash. Hopefully these will be enough to do something.
Corbin nearly died by an energy vortex. Even though his AC is -24, the lightning from
Mjollnir is redirected at character. Used two scrolls of teleport and thonged club to destroy
energy vortex. They have very fast movement.

On 31.12.2022 14:43, Yosemite Sam wrote:
>
> Corbin, a neutral priest has six spells, four of them (gone).
> Already got Mjollnir. [...] Corbin nearly died by an energy vortex.

Yeah, use of Mjollnir fosters over-confidence; there's a couple even
"not so tough" monsters that deserve some care. In Slashem even a bug;
a lightning bug that happily destroys precious wands/rings. But also
in Vanilla there's a couple shocking species (pun intended).

Getting shock resistance is an important goal I try to achieve as early
as possible.

> Even though his AC is -24, the lightning from Mjollnir is redirected
> at character.

What do you mean by here by "redirected"? (Did you throw Mjollnir?)

> Used two scrolls of teleport and thonged club to destroy energy
> vortex. They have very fast movement.

Janis

On Saturday, December 31, 2022 at 10:31:23 AM UTC-6, Janis Papanagnou wrote:
> On 31.12.2022 14:43, Yosemite Sam wrote:
> >
> > Corbin, a neutral priest has six spells, four of them (gone).
> > Already got Mjollnir. [...] Corbin nearly died by an energy vortex.
>
> Yeah, use of Mjollnir fosters over-confidence; there's a couple even
> "not so tough" monsters that deserve some care. In Slashem even a bug;
> a lightning bug that happily destroys precious wands/rings. But also
> in Vanilla there's a couple shocking species (pun intended).
>
> Getting shock resistance is an important goal I try to achieve as early
> as possible.
> > Even though his AC is -24, the lightning from Mjollnir is redirected
> > at character.
> What do you mean by here by "redirected"? (Did you throw Mjollnir?)

I don't have the message, but lightning from Mjollnir was going to the
vortex, which zapped it back at Corbin. It took about 20 hp per swing.
He was mindlessly whacking away at the energy vortex until I noticed
he only had 17 hit points left. The thonged club was sufficient to slay
the beast. Since you mentioned throwing Mjollnir, that's something we
may be able to start doing, because Corbin's STR is up to 18/09, mostly
because of a beehive.

On Saturday, December 31, 2022 at 11:33:29 AM UTC-6, Yosemite Sam wrote:
> On Saturday, December 31, 2022 at 10:31:23 AM UTC-6, Janis Papanagnou wrote:
> > On 31.12.2022 14:43, Yosemite Sam wrote:
> > >
> > > Corbin, a neutral priest has six spells, four of them (gone).
> > > Already got Mjollnir. [...] Corbin nearly died by an energy vortex.
> >
> > Yeah, use of Mjollnir fosters over-confidence; there's a couple even
> > "not so tough" monsters that deserve some care. In Slashem even a bug;
> > a lightning bug that happily destroys precious wands/rings. But also
> > in Vanilla there's a couple shocking species (pun intended).
> >
> > Getting shock resistance is an important goal I try to achieve as early
> > as possible.
> > > Even though his AC is -24, the lightning from Mjollnir is redirected
> > > at character.
> > What do you mean by here by "redirected"? (Did you throw Mjollnir?)
> I don't have the message, but lightning from Mjollnir was going to the
> vortex, which zapped it back at Corbin. It took about 20 hp per swing.
> He was mindlessly whacking away at the energy vortex until I noticed
> he only had 17 hit points left. The thonged club was sufficient to slay
> the beast. Since you mentioned throwing Mjollnir, that's something we
> may be able to start doing, because Corbin's STR is up to 18/09, mostly
> because of a beehive.

I realize now it might have just been the energy vortex's attack that was
hitting Corbin. However, it is clear that the lightning was doing no
damage to the energy vortex.