https://apnews.com/article/texas-execution-wife-daughter-dallas-deaths-40a63de9669db7308db412fcc4856fa7

Texas inmate executed for killing wife and her daughter
By JUAN A. LOZANO and MICHAEL GRACZYK

HUNTSVILLE, Texas (AP) — A Texas inmate convicted of fatally stabbing his estranged wife and drowning her 6-year-old daughter in a bathtub nearly 14 years ago was executed on Tuesday.

Gary Green, 51, received a lethal injection at the state penitentiary in Huntsville. He was condemned for the September 2009 deaths of Lovetta Armstead, 32, and her daughter, Jazzmen Montgomery, at their Dallas home. Green’s attorneys did not file any appeals seeking to stop the execution.

A Buddhist spiritual adviser chosen by Green stood beside the death chamber gurney at the inmate’s feet and said a brief prayer. Green then apologized profusely when asked by the warden if he had a final statement.

“I apologize for all the harm I have caused you and your family,” Green said, looking at relatives of his victims who watched through a window close by. “We ate together, we laughed and cried together as a family. I’m sorry I failed you.”

He said he took “two people that we all loved, and I had to live that while I was here.”

“We were all one and I broke that bond,” he continued. “I ask that you forgive me, not for me but for y’all. I’m fixing to go home and y’all are going to be here. I want to make sure you don’t suffer. You have to forgive me and heal and move on. ... I’m not the man I used to be.”

Instead of inserting the IV needles in each arm, prison technicians had to use a vein in Green’s right arm and a vein on the top of his left hand, delaying the injection briefly for Green, who was listed on prison records as weighing 365 pounds (165 kilograms).

As the lethal dose of the sedative pentobarbital began, Green was thanking prison administrators, chaplains and “all the beautiful human beings at the Polunsky Unit,” the prison that houses Texas’ condemned men. Then he took several quick breaths, which evolved into snores. After nine snores, all movement ceased. Several of the victims’ relatives hugged and briefly cried.

He was pronounced dead 33 minutes later, at 7:07 p.m.

Ray Montgomery, Jazzmen’s father and one of the witnesses, said recently that he wasn’t cheering for Green’s execution but saw it as the justice system at work.

“It’s justice for the way my daughter was tortured. It’s justice for the way that Lovetta was murdered,” said Montgomery, 43. He and other witnesses did not speak with reporters afterward.

In prior appeals, Green’s attorneys had claimed he was intellectually disabled and had a lifelong history of psychiatric disorders. Those appeals were rejected by the U.S. Supreme Court and lower appeals courts.

The high court has prohibited the death penalty for the intellectually disabled, but not for people with serious mental illness.

Authorities said Green committed the killings after Armstead sought to annul their marriage. On the day of the killings, Armstead had written two letters to Green, telling him that although she loved him, she had “to do what’s best for me.” In his own letter, which was angry and rambling, Green expressed the belief Armstead and her children were involved in a plot against him.

“You asked to see the monster so here he is the monster you made me.. ... They will be 5 lives taken today me being the 5th,” Green wrote.

Armstead was stabbed more than two dozen times, and Green drowned Jazzmen in the home’s bathtub.

Authorities said Green also intended to kill Armstead’s two other children, then 9-year-old Jerrett and 12-year-old Jerome. Green stabbed Jerrett but both boys survived.

“Told (Green) because we’re too little to die, and we won’t tell anybody about it,” Jerrett told jurors in testimony about how he convinced Green to spare their lives.

Josh Healy, one of the prosecutors with the Dallas County District Attorney’s Office that convicted Green, said the boys were incredibly brave..

Green “was an evil guy. It was one of the worst cases I’ve ever been a part of,” said Healy, now a defense attorney in Dallas.

Montgomery said he still has a close relationship with Armstead’s two sons. He said both lead productive lives and Jerome Armstead has a daughter who looks like Jazzmen.

“They still suffer a lot, I think,” said Montgomery, who is a special education English teacher.

Green’s execution was the first of two scheduled in Texas this week.. Inmate Arthur Brown Jr. is set to be executed Thursday.

Green was the eighth inmate in the U.S. put to death this year.

He was one of six Texas death row inmates participating in a lawsuit seeking to stop the state’s prison system from using what they allege are expired and unsafe execution drugs. Despite a civil court judge in Austin preliminarily agreeing with the claims, four of the Texas inmates including Green have been executed this year.

Green's remarks are so disgusting...

But unfortunately, too many otherwise good people who are not directly involved have a warped idea about "forgiveness."

I mean, what's wrong with simply moving on with your life without forgiving, so long as you try not to think about the past too much? (Obviously, horrific crimes can never be FORGOTTEN, per se.)

And when it comes to awful behaviors that are not crimes, what's wrong with simply cutting the guilty parties out of your life forever? I.e., forgetting but not forgiving?

For example, if you find that your best friend has been having a long-term affair with your spouse...well, need I say more?

On Wed, 8 Mar 2023 10:36:43 -0800 (PST), Lenona <lenona321@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>I mean, what's wrong with simply moving on with your life without forgiving, so long as you try not to think about the past too much? (Obviously, horrific crimes can never be FORGOTTEN, per se.)
>
>And when it comes to awful behaviors that are not crimes, what's wrong with simply cutting the guilty parties out of your life forever? I.e., forgetting but not forgiving?

Shunning someone who has wronged you doesn't mean you have forgotten
what they have done; it means you remember it.

>For example, if you find that your best friend has been having a long-term affair with your spouse...well, need I say more?

Unforgiveness is a yoke with which you burden yourself. Green was
right when he said that the forgiveness he asked for was not for his
benefit, but for theirs. While one could argue that he was the one
person in the world who had no place to speak that truth to them, it
is still the truth.

David Carson

>He was one of six Texas death row inmates participating in a lawsuit seeking to stop the state’s prison system from using what they allege are expired and unsafe execution drugs. Despite a civil court judge in Austin preliminarily agreeing with the claims, four of the Texas inmates including Green have been executed this year.

Two appeals courts ruled, within hours, that the judge lacked
jurisdiction.

David Carson

David Carson <davidc@wa-wd.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 8 Mar 2023 10:36:43 -0800 (PST), Lenona <lenona321@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
>>I mean, what's wrong with simply moving on with your life without forgiving, so long as you try not to think about the past too much? (Obviously, horrific crimes can never be FORGOTTEN, per se.)
>>
>>And when it comes to awful behaviors that are not crimes, what's wrong with simply cutting the guilty parties out of your life forever? I.e., forgetting but not forgiving?
>
> Shunning someone who has wronged you doesn't mean you have forgotten
> what they have done; it means you remember it.
>
>>For example, if you find that your best friend has been having a long-term affair with your spouse...well, need I say more?
>
> Unforgiveness is a yoke with which you burden yourself. Green was
> right when he said that the forgiveness he asked for was not for his
> benefit, but for theirs. While one could argue that he was the one
> person in the world who had no place to speak that truth to them, it
> is still the truth.

Only the repentant can be entitled to forgiveness;
it is something it is selfish to ask for,or to deny if deserved.

-=-=-
The World Trade Center towers MUST rise again,
at least as tall as before...or terror has triumphed.

David Carson <davidc@wa-wd.com> wrote:

>>He was one of six Texas death row inmates participating in a lawsuit
>seeking to stop the state's prison system from using what they allege
>are expired and unsafe execution drugs. Despite a civil court judge in
>Austin preliminarily agreeing with the claims, four of the Texas inmates
>including Green have been executed this year.

>Two appeals courts ruled, within hours, that the judge lacked
>jurisdiction.

What's the concern with expired medicine, not unsafe enough?

Powerfully argued, Lenona[.]; wish I'd said it first.

BRYAN STYBLE/Florida

In article <tub2om$141h8$1@dont-email.me>, Adam H. Kerman
<ahk@chinet.com> wrote:

> David Carson <davidc@wa-wd.com> wrote:
>
> >>He was one of six Texas death row inmates participating in a lawsuit
> >seeking to stop the state's prison system from using what they allege
> >are expired and unsafe execution drugs. Despite a civil court judge in
> >Austin preliminarily agreeing with the claims, four of the Texas inmates
> >including Green have been executed this year.
>
> >Two appeals courts ruled, within hours, that the judge lacked
> >jurisdiction.
>
> What's the concern with expired medicine, not unsafe enough?

Every con has a con.

David Carson wrote:

Shunning someone who has wronged you doesn't mean you have forgotten
what they have done; it means you remember it.
______________________________

If you're unlucky enough to live within a square mile or so of the other person, obviously you can't easily avoid that person or forget the wrong done..

However, I'd say that sort of falls into the same category of crimes that CAN'T be forgotten - especially when there's no remorse. It's not as though you two could be real friends again, after all, so why would you even talk to each other when you don't have to? There are better things to do, after all.

Whereas, if you move far away or the other one does, it would be rude for the wrongdoer to keep contacting you when he/she knows the attempts are unwelcome. Eventually, the wronged party just might forget the "friend's" name. How is that "shunning"?

In the same vein, if someone bullies you for months or years in high school and there's nothing you can do to stop it, and you know that asking for an apology a year after graduation would only mean getting laughed at, the only civilized revenge is to move away and try to forget that person's name - and very existence. Bullies want constant attention, do they not?

(Of course, there's a good chance you were just one of many victims of that bully, which means the bully will also forget YOUR name and feel no guilt, but that's life.)
_________________________________________________

Louis said:
Only the repentant can be entitled to forgiveness;
it is something it is selfish to ask for
___________________________________________________

And it's especially problematic when the guilty party begs for forgiveness but never thinks to say "I'm so SORRY for what I did."****

The two are not the same, and remorse has to be proven FIRST - it's not self-evident. As I remember from Miss Manners, the only civilized way to seek forgiveness is to apologize - and make AMENDS - over and over, until the other person gets tired of hearing it. Whether forgiveness is then offered is still up to the latter. Begging - i.e., demanding - forgiveness is the height of arrogance.

****There's a certain nasty French fairy tale, sometimes called "Prince Darling" which features that exact scenario. Of course, as a fairy tale, there's only one way for it to end, but it's the type no sensible adult would read aloud to a kid - IMO. Not that most kids would take it seriously, I think, so if they read it on their own, nothing wrong with that.

On Wednesday, March 8, 2023 at 5:51:13 PM UTC-5, Bryan wrote:
> Powerfully argued, Lenona[.]; wish I'd said it first.
>
> BRYAN STYBLE/Florida

Thank you.

And I see you beat me to the Bert I. Gordon obit - but I just had to focus on my longer post first.

Lenona <lenona321@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> David Carson wrote:
>
> Shunning someone who has wronged you doesn't mean you have forgotten
> what they have done; it means you remember it.
> ______________________________
>
> If you're unlucky enough to live within a square mile or so of the other person, obviously you can't easily avoid that person or forget the wrong done.
>
> However, I'd say that sort of falls into the same category of crimes that CAN'T be forgotten - especially when there's no remorse. It's not as though you two could be real friends again, after all, so why would you even talk to each other when you don't have to? There are better things to do, after all.
>
> Whereas, if you move far away or the other one does, it would be rude for the wrongdoer to keep contacting you when he/she knows the attempts are unwelcome. Eventually, the wronged party just might forget the "friend's" name. How is that "shunning"?
>
> In the same vein, if someone bullies you for months or years in high school and there's nothing you can do to stop it, and you know that asking for an apology a year after graduation would only mean getting laughed at, the only civilized revenge is to move away and try to forget that person's name - and very existence. Bullies want constant attention, do they not?
>
> (Of course, there's a good chance you were just one of many victims of that bully, which means the bully will also forget YOUR name and feel no guilt, but that's life.)
> _________________________________________________
>
> Louis said:
> Only the repentant can be entitled to forgiveness;
> it is something it is selfish to ask for
> ___________________________________________________
>
> And it's especially problematic when the guilty party begs for forgiveness
> but never thinks to say "I'm so SORRY for what I did."****

If you do not believe that you should not have done what you did,
you are not apologizing and shouldn't fake it...saying you wish
the other person did not feel bad about it is not saying you
shouldn't have done it.

> The two are not the same, and remorse has to be proven FIRST - it's not
> self-evident. As I remember from Miss Manners, the only civilized way to seek
> forgiveness is to apologize - and make AMENDS - over and over, until the
> other person gets tired of hearing it.

Isn't that a renewed offense in itself?
(Remember Chekhov's "The Sneeze").

> Whether forgiveness is then offered is still up to the latter.

Indeed.

> Begging - i.e., demanding - forgiveness is the height of arrogance.
>
> ****There's a certain nasty French fairy tale, sometimes called "Prince
> Darling" which features that exact scenario. Of course, as a fairy tale,
> there's only one way for it to end, but it's the type no sensible adult would
> read aloud to a kid - IMO. Not that most kids would take it seriously, I
> think, so if they read it on their own, nothing wrong with that.
>

-=-=-
The World Trade Center towers MUST rise again,
at least as tall as before...or terror has triumphed.

On Wednesday, March 8, 2023 at 8:04:52 PM UTC-5, Louis Epstein wrote:
> Lenona wrote:
> >
> > The two are not the same, and remorse has to be proven FIRST - it's not
> > self-evident. As I remember from Miss Manners, the only civilized way to seek
> > forgiveness is to apologize - and make AMENDS - over and over, until the
> > other person gets tired of hearing it.

> Isn't that a renewed offense in itself?

Of course, after several apologies, if the listener spontaneously breaks down and says "I forgive you," then that's the cue to stop apologizing.

On Wednesday, March 8, 2023 at 10:07:48 AM UTC-8, Big Mongo wrote:
> https://apnews.com/article/texas-execution-wife-daughter-dallas-deaths-40a63de9669db7308db412fcc4856fa7
>
> Texas inmate executed for killing wife and her daughter
> By JUAN A. LOZANO and MICHAEL GRACZYK
>
> HUNTSVILLE, Texas (AP) — A Texas inmate convicted of fatally stabbing his estranged wife and drowning her 6-year-old daughter in a bathtub nearly 14 years ago was executed on Tuesday.
>
> Gary Green, 51, received a lethal injection at the state penitentiary in Huntsville. He was condemned for the September 2009 deaths of Lovetta Armstead, 32, and her daughter, Jazzmen Montgomery, at their Dallas home. Green’s attorneys did not file any appeals seeking to stop the execution..
>
> A Buddhist spiritual adviser chosen by Green stood beside the death chamber gurney at the inmate’s feet and said a brief prayer. Green then apologized profusely when asked by the warden if he had a final statement.
>
> “I apologize for all the harm I have caused you and your family,” Green said, looking at relatives of his victims who watched through a window close by. “We ate together, we laughed and cried together as a family. I’m sorry I failed you.”
>
> He said he took “two people that we all loved, and I had to live that while I was here.”
>
> “We were all one and I broke that bond,” he continued. “I ask that you forgive me, not for me but for y’all. I’m fixing to go home and y’all are going to be here. I want to make sure you don’t suffer. You have to forgive me and heal and move on. ... I’m not the man I used to be.”
>
> Instead of inserting the IV needles in each arm, prison technicians had to use a vein in Green’s right arm and a vein on the top of his left hand, delaying the injection briefly for Green, who was listed on prison records as weighing 365 pounds (165 kilograms).
>
> As the lethal dose of the sedative pentobarbital began, Green was thanking prison administrators, chaplains and “all the beautiful human beings at the Polunsky Unit,” the prison that houses Texas’ condemned men. Then he took several quick breaths, which evolved into snores. After nine snores, all movement ceased. Several of the victims’ relatives hugged and briefly cried.
>
> He was pronounced dead 33 minutes later, at 7:07 p.m.
>
> Ray Montgomery, Jazzmen’s father and one of the witnesses, said recently that he wasn’t cheering for Green’s execution but saw it as the justice system at work.
>
> “It’s justice for the way my daughter was tortured. It’s justice for the way that Lovetta was murdered,” said Montgomery, 43. He and other witnesses did not speak with reporters afterward.
>
> In prior appeals, Green’s attorneys had claimed he was intellectually disabled and had a lifelong history of psychiatric disorders. Those appeals were rejected by the U.S. Supreme Court and lower appeals courts.
>
> The high court has prohibited the death penalty for the intellectually disabled, but not for people with serious mental illness.
>
> Authorities said Green committed the killings after Armstead sought to annul their marriage. On the day of the killings, Armstead had written two letters to Green, telling him that although she loved him, she had “to do what’s best for me.” In his own letter, which was angry and rambling, Green expressed the belief Armstead and her children were involved in a plot against him.
>
> “You asked to see the monster so here he is the monster you made me. ... They will be 5 lives taken today me being the 5th,” Green wrote.
>
> Armstead was stabbed more than two dozen times, and Green drowned Jazzmen in the home’s bathtub.
>
> Authorities said Green also intended to kill Armstead’s two other children, then 9-year-old Jerrett and 12-year-old Jerome. Green stabbed Jerrett but both boys survived.
>
> “Told (Green) because we’re too little to die, and we won’t tell anybody about it,” Jerrett told jurors in testimony about how he convinced Green to spare their lives.
>
> Josh Healy, one of the prosecutors with the Dallas County District Attorney’s Office that convicted Green, said the boys were incredibly brave.
>
> Green “was an evil guy. It was one of the worst cases I’ve ever been a part of,” said Healy, now a defense attorney in Dallas.
>
> Montgomery said he still has a close relationship with Armstead’s two sons. He said both lead productive lives and Jerome Armstead has a daughter who looks like Jazzmen.
>
> “They still suffer a lot, I think,” said Montgomery, who is a special education English teacher.
>
> Green’s execution was the first of two scheduled in Texas this week. Inmate Arthur Brown Jr. is set to be executed Thursday.
>
> Green was the eighth inmate in the U.S. put to death this year.
>
> He was one of six Texas death row inmates participating in a lawsuit seeking to stop the state’s prison system from using what they allege are expired and unsafe execution drugs. Despite a civil court judge in Austin preliminarily agreeing with the claims, four of the Texas inmates including Green have been executed this year.

don't do the crime if you can't do the time

gotta love Texas

On Wed, 8 Mar 2023 15:18:55 -0800 (PST), Lenona <lenona321@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>
> David Carson wrote:
>
> Shunning someone who has wronged you doesn't mean you have forgotten
> what they have done; it means you remember it.
>______________________________
>
>If you're unlucky enough to live within a square mile or so of the other person, obviously you can't easily avoid that person or forget the wrong done.
>
>However, I'd say that sort of falls into the same category of crimes that CAN'T be forgotten - especially when there's no remorse. It's not as though you two could be real friends again, after all, so why would you even talk to each other when you don't have to? There are better things to do, after all.
>
>Whereas, if you move far away or the other one does, it would be rude for the wrongdoer to keep contacting you when he/she knows the attempts are unwelcome. Eventually, the wronged party just might forget the "friend's" name. How is that "shunning"?

I don't disagree that cutting one's self off from a hurtful person can be
a healthy and effective way to cope with him or her. I'm only saying that
it isn't a way to "forget but not forgive." It may or may not include
forgiveness, but it 's definitely _not_ forgetting.

David Carson
--
Dead or Alive Data Base
http://www.doadb.com

On Wed, 8 Mar 2023 21:15:30 -0000 (UTC), Louis Epstein <le@main.lekno.ws>
wrote:

>David Carson <davidc@wa-wd.com> wrote:
>> Unforgiveness is a yoke with which you burden yourself. Green was
>> right when he said that the forgiveness he asked for was not for his
>> benefit, but for theirs. While one could argue that he was the one
>> person in the world who had no place to speak that truth to them, it
>> is still the truth.
>
>Only the repentant can be entitled to forgiveness;
>it is something it is selfish to ask for,or to deny if deserved.

I will repeat my point in different words. Forgiveness is often less about
whether the other person is entitled to it, but whether you are going to
condemn yourself to carry the heavy burden of unforgiveness, and for how
long.

David Carson
--
Dead or Alive Data Base
http://www.doadb.com

David Carson <davidc@wa-wd.com> wrote:
>On Wed, 8 Mar 2023 10:36:43 -0800 (PST), Lenona <lenona321@yahoo.com> wrote:

>>I mean, what's wrong with simply moving on with your life without forgiving, so long as you try not to think about the past too much? (Obviously, horrific crimes can never be FORGOTTEN, per se.)

>>And when it comes to awful behaviors that are not crimes, what's wrong with simply cutting the guilty parties out of your life forever? I.e., forgetting but not forgiving?

>Shunning someone who has wronged you doesn't mean you have forgotten
>what they have done; it means you remember it.

>>For example, if you find that your best friend has been having a long-term affair with your spouse...well, need I say more?

>Unforgiveness is a yoke with which you burden yourself. Green was
>right when he said that the forgiveness he asked for was not for his
>benefit, but for theirs. While one could argue that he was the one
>person in the world who had no place to speak that truth to them, it
>is still the truth.

I certainly do not agree. One is going to feel one's emotions -- anger,
grief -- until the pain subsides. It will take a very long time.
Forgiving the perpetrator of a murder of one's loved one or friend isn't
some shortcut to getting through awful messy emotions.

It takes time. And then it will take more time. And then it will take
even more time. Eventually the emotions lessen.

One doesn't just wake up one morning and decide to be at peace, skipping
the emotional rollercoaster. It doesn't work like that.

Mr. Green can take his fine sentiments with him to the grave.

Lenona <lenona321@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Wednesday, March 8, 2023 at 8:04:52?PM UTC-5, Louis Epstein wrote:
>> Lenona wrote:
>> >
>> > The two are not the same, and remorse has to be proven FIRST - it's not
>> > self-evident. As I remember from Miss Manners, the only civilized way to seek
>> > forgiveness is to apologize - and make AMENDS - over and over, until the
>> > other person gets tired of hearing it.
>
>
>> Isn't that a renewed offense in itself?
>
>
> Of course, after several apologies, if the listener spontaneously breaks
> down and says "I forgive you," then that's the cue to stop apologizing.

If the listener breaks down and says "stop talking about it",
and does not appear in a forgiving mood,then what?

-=-=-
The World Trade Center towers MUST rise again,
at least as tall as before...or terror has triumphed.

David Carson <davo@neosoft.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 8 Mar 2023 21:15:30 -0000 (UTC), Louis Epstein <le@main.lekno.ws>
> wrote:
>
>>David Carson <davidc@wa-wd.com> wrote:
>>> Unforgiveness is a yoke with which you burden yourself. Green was
>>> right when he said that the forgiveness he asked for was not for his
>>> benefit, but for theirs. While one could argue that he was the one
>>> person in the world who had no place to speak that truth to them, it
>>> is still the truth.
>>
>>Only the repentant can be entitled to forgiveness;
>>it is something it is selfish to ask for,or to deny if deserved.
>
> I will repeat my point in different words. Forgiveness is often less about
> whether the other person is entitled to it, but whether you are going to
> condemn yourself to carry the heavy burden of unforgiveness, and for how
> long.

There are things that one can not justify forgiving
without abandoning one's moral core.

-=-=-
The World Trade Center towers MUST rise again,
at least as tall as before...or terror has triumphed.

In the previous article, Adam H. Kerman <ahk@chinet.com> wrote:
> >Two appeals courts ruled, within hours, that the judge lacked
> >jurisdiction.
>
> What's the concern with expired medicine, not unsafe enough?

It's a legitimate concern about the *effectiveness* of the drugs. If
you half-ass an execution, you can create a real horror-show. No one
-- or, well, almost no one -- wants that.

That said, medications aren't magic. They don't go "poof!" on the
exact day of expiration. It's a curve, and frankly almost all
expiration dates are set ridiculously soon. None of them really have
a medical or scientific basis; they are set by marketing people,
though they generally have some data to support at least a general
range of dates.

All of this argues, as I have been for decades, for conducting
judicial executions with nitrogen gas. It requires no special license
or medical sanction to purchase, it's safe to handle and store, it's
cheap and plentiful, and it will never, ever, ever fail in any way --
and even if it did, there would be no harm done and you could just try
again. Plus, as a bonus, it's as humane a death as it's possible to
deliver.

Alabama may do this soon. I guess we might get to test the hypothesis.
--
_+_ From the catapult of |If anyone objects to any statement I make, I am
_|70|___:)=}- J.D. Baldwin |quite prepared not only to retract it, but also
\ / baldwin@panix.com|to deny under oath that I ever made it.-T. Lehrer
***~~~~----------------------------------------------------------------------

On Thu, 9 Mar 2023 04:49:22 -0000 (UTC), "Adam H. Kerman"
<ahk@chinet.com> wrote:

>David Carson <davidc@wa-wd.com> wrote:
>>Unforgiveness is a yoke with which you burden yourself. Green was
>>right when he said that the forgiveness he asked for was not for his
>>benefit, but for theirs. While one could argue that he was the one
>>person in the world who had no place to speak that truth to them, it
>>is still the truth.
>
>I certainly do not agree. One is going to feel one's emotions -- anger,
>grief -- until the pain subsides. It will take a very long time.
>Forgiving the perpetrator of a murder of one's loved one or friend isn't
>some shortcut to getting through awful messy emotions.
>
>It takes time. And then it will take more time. And then it will take
>even more time. Eventually the emotions lessen.
>
>One doesn't just wake up one morning and decide to be at peace, skipping
>the emotional rollercoaster. It doesn't work like that.
>
>Mr. Green can take his fine sentiments with him to the grave.

I don't disagree with anything you wrote. Whatever you think you're
disagreeing with me on is strawman stuff that I didn't write or mean.

The only thing I would add to your point is that yes, it takes time,
and yes, you have to work through it, but you nevertheless _can_
decide what your end goal is going to be - the healing brought by
forgiveness, or the permanent wound of unforgiveness. You shouldn't be
expected to abruptly choose to forgive and be healed, but it is
unlikely that you will ever reach that end without some conscious
effort.

David Carson

In article <tucr53$i15$1@reader2.panix.com>,
J.D. Baldwin <news@baldwin.users.panix.com> wrote:
....
>All of this argues, as I have been for decades, for conducting
>judicial executions with nitrogen gas. It requires no special license
>or medical sanction to purchase, it's safe to handle and store, it's
>cheap and plentiful, and it will never, ever, ever fail in any way --
>and even if it did, there would be no harm done and you could just try
>again. Plus, as a bonus, it's as humane a death as it's possible to
>deliver.

Yes! I'm so glad you posted this. I've been thinking exactly these words
for so long. I was about to post something about in response to this
(your) post, but then you went ahead and wrote it for me.

Everything I've read about using nitrogen for this purpose makes it sound
ideal. Of course, sad to say, this (its being ideal) could engender
resistance to it from partisans on either/both sides of the aisle. Pro-DP
people won't like it because it's not gruesome enough, and anti-DP people
won't like it because it's too good/easy.

>Alabama may do this soon. I guess we might get to test the hypothesis.

Who'd'a thunk Alabama could/would be the leader on anything?
Wonders never cease...

--
If you don't have faith, it's because you are reading the Bible with an
honest, truthful, real-answer seeking heart.

- Rick C Hodgin -

David Carson <davidc@wa-wd.com> wrote:
>Thu, 9 Mar 2023 04:49:22 -0000 (UTC), "Adam H. Kerman" <ahk@chinet.com> wrote:
>>David Carson <davidc@wa-wd.com> wrote:

>>>Unforgiveness is a yoke with which you burden yourself. Green was
>>>right when he said that the forgiveness he asked for was not for his
>>>benefit, but for theirs. While one could argue that he was the one
>>>person in the world who had no place to speak that truth to them, it
>>>is still the truth.

>>I certainly do not agree. One is going to feel one's emotions -- anger,
>>grief -- until the pain subsides. It will take a very long time.
>>Forgiving the perpetrator of a murder of one's loved one or friend isn't
>>some shortcut to getting through awful messy emotions.

>>It takes time. And then it will take more time. And then it will take
>>even more time. Eventually the emotions lessen.

>>One doesn't just wake up one morning and decide to be at peace, skipping
>>the emotional rollercoaster. It doesn't work like that.

>>Mr. Green can take his fine sentiments with him to the grave.

>I don't disagree with anything you wrote. Whatever you think you're
>disagreeing with me on is strawman stuff that I didn't write or mean.

I wrote it. That's my name on From. You left the points unaddressed that
I thought were necessary to address, which is why I wrote a followup.

This is unmoderated Usenet. I'm not telling you what to write and you
don't get to tell me what to write.

You can knock off the strawman accusation.

>The only thing I would add to your point is that yes, it takes time,
>and yes, you have to work through it, but you nevertheless _can_
>decide what your end goal is going to be - the healing brought by
>forgiveness, or the permanent wound of unforgiveness. You shouldn't be
>expected to abruptly choose to forgive and be healed, but it is
>unlikely that you will ever reach that end without some conscious
>effort.

I do not agree that's possible. When the anger and grief lessens, maybe
you'll forgive, maybe you won't, but deciding in advance that you are
going to forgive some day does not speed up the time it takes to work
through emotions.

J.D. Baldwin <news@baldwin.users.panix.com> wrote:
>Adam H. Kerman <ahk@chinet.com> wrote:

>>>Two appeals courts ruled, within hours, that the judge lacked
>>>jurisdiction.

>>What's the concern with expired medicine, not unsafe enough?

>It's a legitimate concern about the *effectiveness* of the drugs. If
>you half-ass an execution, you can create a real horror-show. No one
>-- or, well, almost no one -- wants that.

You're right. I was snarking.

>That said, medications aren't magic. They don't go "poof!" on the
>exact day of expiration. It's a curve, and frankly almost all
>expiration dates are set ridiculously soon. None of them really have
>a medical or scientific basis; they are set by marketing people,
>though they generally have some data to support at least a general
>range of dates.

>All of this argues, as I have been for decades, for conducting
>judicial executions with nitrogen gas. It requires no special license
>or medical sanction to purchase, it's safe to handle and store, it's
>cheap and plentiful, and it will never, ever, ever fail in any way --
>and even if it did, there would be no harm done and you could just try
>again. Plus, as a bonus, it's as humane a death as it's possible to
>deliver.

>Alabama may do this soon. I guess we might get to test the hypothesis.

I agree with your comments about nitrogen. Vets have been euthenizing
large animals in this way for a very long time.

David Carson <davidc@wa-wd.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 9 Mar 2023 04:49:22 -0000 (UTC), "Adam H. Kerman"
> <ahk@chinet.com> wrote:
>
>>David Carson <davidc@wa-wd.com> wrote:
>>>Unforgiveness is a yoke with which you burden yourself. Green was
>>>right when he said that the forgiveness he asked for was not for his
>>>benefit, but for theirs. While one could argue that he was the one
>>>person in the world who had no place to speak that truth to them, it
>>>is still the truth.
>>
>>I certainly do not agree. One is going to feel one's emotions -- anger,
>>grief -- until the pain subsides. It will take a very long time.
>>Forgiving the perpetrator of a murder of one's loved one or friend isn't
>>some shortcut to getting through awful messy emotions.
>>
>>It takes time. And then it will take more time. And then it will take
>>even more time. Eventually the emotions lessen.
>>
>>One doesn't just wake up one morning and decide to be at peace, skipping
>>the emotional rollercoaster. It doesn't work like that.
>>
>>Mr. Green can take his fine sentiments with him to the grave.
>
> I don't disagree with anything you wrote. Whatever you think you're
> disagreeing with me on is strawman stuff that I didn't write or mean.
>
> The only thing I would add to your point is that yes, it takes time,
> and yes, you have to work through it, but you nevertheless _can_
> decide what your end goal is going to be - the healing brought by
> forgiveness, or the permanent wound of unforgiveness.

I suppose you also condone pardoning Nixon?

Sometimes it is unwarranted forgiveness that makes
a wound more permanent than it would have been!

-=-=-
The World Trade Center towers MUST rise again,
at least as tall as before...or terror has triumphed.

On Thursday, March 9, 2023 at 12:04:33 AM UTC-5, Louis Epstein wrote:

> If the listener breaks down and says "stop talking about it",
> and does not appear in a forgiving mood,then what?

In that case (I realized, after I'd sent the other message, that the more typical expression is "I accept your apology"), the sinner realizes that forgiveness is not in the cards, whether the sin was a huge one or not. (Again, making amends in ADDITION to the apology is usually necessary, even if, say, that means paying for a very expensive broken vase. Too many people immaturely think that making amends is too much worrrrrrk, even when it doesn't involve money.)

But if it IS a small sin, it's possible that the friendship can resume again over time - IF the hurt party so chooses. From Miss Manners (Judith Martin):

"Miss Manners has been known to forget offenses she would not forgive."

More on that (I think everyone here will love this):

https://books.google.com/books?id=Q348PWE1p6MC&pg=PA565&lpg=PA565&dq=%22miss+manners%22+%22she+would+not+forgive%22&source=bl&ots=LFlGLZ6Mro&sig=ACfU3U1U_cLbUTHDG5qpGN84zGuUoGWCGg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiRwMHNxM_9AhUcFVkFHTMbDFIQ6AF6BAgMEAM#v=onepage&q=%22miss%20manners%22%20%22she%20would%20not%20forgive%22&f=false

While she didn't mention the need to make amends when an apology just isn't enough, she did point out that even when the offense was purely accidental, the offender HAS to apologize. (Many arrogant people - especially the young - think this is mean and unfair, but it goes both ways, of course. Trouble is, someone like Jim Belushi - his book is "Real Men Don't Apologize" - likely doesn't care if people never apologize to HIM when they should.)