Apologies if this has been discussed before, but when I was growing
up, the name of the country in the Middle East was pronounced,

"Kuh-TAR"

Now it is pronounced:

"CUTTER"

Although I have heard it pronounced the former way occasionally by
British journalists.

El Mon, 12 Dec 2022 14:46:22 -0800, Mack A. Damia escribió:

> Apologies if this has been discussed before, but when I was growing up,
> the name of the country in the Middle East was pronounced,
>
> "Kuh-TAR"

That's snotty.

My pronunciation has always been double stress. Both the As are A, not U
or schwa.

>
> Now it is pronounced:
>
> "CUTTER"
>
> Although I have heard it pronounced the former way occasionally by
> British journalists.

https://groups.google.com/g/alt.usage.english/c/fMW4vRaKk98/m/JLfbMOLKBwAJ

23rd November.

--
Paul.

https://paulc.es/elpatio

On Monday, December 12, 2022 at 5:46:29 PM UTC-5, Mack A. Damia wrote:
> Apologies if this has been discussed before, but when I was growing
> up, the name of the country in the Middle East was pronounced,
>
> "Kuh-TAR"
>
> Now it is pronounced:
>
> "CUTTER"
>
> Although I have heard it pronounced the former way occasionally by
> British journalists.

Have a look at the pronunciations given at its Wikiparticle. The BBC
has actually been conforming to what it says there, including the
final r.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qatar

"Qatar (UK: /ˈkætɑːr, ˈkʌt-, ˈɡæt-, ˈɡʌt-, kæˈtɑːr, ɡæ-, kə-/, US: /ˈkɑːtɑːr,
kəˈtɑːr/;[a] Arabic: قطر, romanized: Qaṭar [ˈqɑtˤɑr]; local vernacular
pronunciation: [ˈɡɪtˤɑr]),[ officially the State of Qatar,[b]"

Note a: " UK: KAT-ar, KUT-, GAT-, GUT-, ka-TAR, ga-, kə-
US: KAH-tar, kə-TAR"

Note b: " (Arabic: دولة قطر, romanized: Dawlat Qaṭar)"

I realized why American journalists (used to) use "Gutter." It's
because the initial Q is not aspirated, and in English the voiceless
stops are aspirated except after s, so an unaspirated stop will be
interpreted as a voiced stop -- when Obama says "Pakistan," it
sounds a lot like "Bakistan" because he says it the way the locals do.

That property of English (and not other languages of Europe) was
taken advantage of when pinyin was devised. "Deng Xiaoping"
doesn't start with a D-as-in-dung, but with an unaspirated T as in
stung-without-the-s.

On Tue, 13 Dec 2022 06:51:40 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels"
<grammatim@verizon.net> wrote:

>On Monday, December 12, 2022 at 5:46:29 PM UTC-5, Mack A. Damia wrote:
>> Apologies if this has been discussed before, but when I was growing
>> up, the name of the country in the Middle East was pronounced,
>>
>> "Kuh-TAR"
>>
>> Now it is pronounced:
>>
>> "CUTTER"
>>
>> Although I have heard it pronounced the former way occasionally by
>> British journalists.
>
>Have a look at the pronunciations given at its Wikiparticle. The BBC
>has actually been conforming to what it says there, including the
>final r.
>
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qatar
>
>"Qatar (UK: /?kæt??r, ?k?t-, ??æt-, ???t-, kæ?t??r, ?æ-, k?-/, US: /?k??t??r,
>k??t??r/;[a] Arabic: ???, romanized: Qa?ar [?q?t??r]; local vernacular
> pronunciation: [???t??r]),[ officially the State of Qatar,[b]"
>
>Note a: " UK: KAT-ar, KUT-, GAT-, GUT-, ka-TAR, ga-, k?-
>US: KAH-tar, k?-TAR"
>
>Note b: " (Arabic: ???? ???, romanized: Dawlat Qa?ar)"
>
>I realized why American journalists (used to) use "Gutter." It's
>because the initial Q is not aspirated, and in English the voiceless
>stops are aspirated except after s, so an unaspirated stop will be
>interpreted as a voiced stop -- when Obama says "Pakistan," it
>sounds a lot like "Bakistan" because he says it the way the locals do.
>
>That property of English (and not other languages of Europe) was
>taken advantage of when pinyin was devised. "Deng Xiaoping"
>doesn't start with a D-as-in-dung, but with an unaspirated T as in
>stung-without-the-s.

I heard Lester Holt on NBC News pronounce it "KA-tar" last night.

What is the point of copying pronunciations when certain characters do
not copy and turn into "?"?

On Tuesday, December 13, 2022 at 10:39:48 AM UTC-5, Mack A. Damia wrote:
> On Tue, 13 Dec 2022 06:51:40 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels"
> <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
> >On Monday, December 12, 2022 at 5:46:29 PM UTC-5, Mack A. Damia wrote:

> >> Apologies if this has been discussed before, but when I was growing
> >> up, the name of the country in the Middle East was pronounced,
> >> "Kuh-TAR"
> >> Now it is pronounced:
> >> "CUTTER"
> >> Although I have heard it pronounced the former way occasionally by
> >> British journalists.
> >Have a look at the pronunciations given at its Wikiparticle. The BBC
> >has actually been conforming to what it says there, including the
> >final r.
> >https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qatar
> >"Qatar (UK: /?kæt??r, ?k?t-, ??æt-, ???t-, kæ?t??r, ?æ-, k?-/, US: /?k??t??r,
> >k??t??r/;[a] Arabic: ???, romanized: Qa?ar [?q?t??r]; local vernacular
> > pronunciation: [???t??r]),[ officially the State of Qatar,[b]"
> >Note a: " UK: KAT-ar, KUT-, GAT-, GUT-, ka-TAR, ga-, k?-
> >US: KAH-tar, k?-TAR"
> >Note b: " (Arabic: ???? ???, romanized: Dawlat Qa?ar)"
> >I realized why American journalists (used to) use "Gutter." It's
> >because the initial Q is not aspirated, and in English the voiceless
> >stops are aspirated except after s, so an unaspirated stop will be
> >interpreted as a voiced stop -- when Obama says "Pakistan," it
> >sounds a lot like "Bakistan" because he says it the way the locals do.
> >That property of English (and not other languages of Europe) was
> >taken advantage of when pinyin was devised. "Deng Xiaoping"
> >doesn't start with a D-as-in-dung, but with an unaspirated T as in
> >stung-without-the-s.
>
> I heard Lester Holt on NBC News pronounce it "KA-tar" last night.
>
> What is the point of copying pronunciations when certain characters do
> not copy and turn into "?"?

Perhaps a gentle hint that you might want to bring your computer
into the 21st century by setting the encoding to UTF-8?

On Tue, 13 Dec 2022 10:54:38 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels"
<grammatim@verizon.net> wrote:

>On Tuesday, December 13, 2022 at 10:39:48 AM UTC-5, Mack A. Damia wrote:
>> On Tue, 13 Dec 2022 06:51:40 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels"
>> <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
>> >On Monday, December 12, 2022 at 5:46:29 PM UTC-5, Mack A. Damia wrote:
>
>> >> Apologies if this has been discussed before, but when I was growing
>> >> up, the name of the country in the Middle East was pronounced,
>> >> "Kuh-TAR"
>> >> Now it is pronounced:
>> >> "CUTTER"
>> >> Although I have heard it pronounced the former way occasionally by
>> >> British journalists.
>> >Have a look at the pronunciations given at its Wikiparticle. The BBC
>> >has actually been conforming to what it says there, including the
>> >final r.
>> >https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qatar
>> >"Qatar (UK: /?kæt??r, ?k?t-, ??æt-, ???t-, kæ?t??r, ?æ-, k?-/, US: /?k??t??r,
>> >k??t??r/;[a] Arabic: ???, romanized: Qa?ar [?q?t??r]; local vernacular
>> > pronunciation: [???t??r]),[ officially the State of Qatar,[b]"
>> >Note a: " UK: KAT-ar, KUT-, GAT-, GUT-, ka-TAR, ga-, k?-
>> >US: KAH-tar, k?-TAR"
>> >Note b: " (Arabic: ???? ???, romanized: Dawlat Qa?ar)"
>> >I realized why American journalists (used to) use "Gutter." It's
>> >because the initial Q is not aspirated, and in English the voiceless
>> >stops are aspirated except after s, so an unaspirated stop will be
>> >interpreted as a voiced stop -- when Obama says "Pakistan," it
>> >sounds a lot like "Bakistan" because he says it the way the locals do.
>> >That property of English (and not other languages of Europe) was
>> >taken advantage of when pinyin was devised. "Deng Xiaoping"
>> >doesn't start with a D-as-in-dung, but with an unaspirated T as in
>> >stung-without-the-s.
>>
>> I heard Lester Holt on NBC News pronounce it "KA-tar" last night.
>>
>> What is the point of copying pronunciations when certain characters do
>> not copy and turn into "?"?
>
>Perhaps a gentle hint that you might want to bring your computer
>into the 21st century by setting the encoding to UTF-8?

Done, but it hasn't made any difference in your original message in
this thread. What's the point?

On Tuesday, December 13, 2022 at 2:46:04 PM UTC-5, Mack A. Damia wrote:
> On Tue, 13 Dec 2022 10:54:38 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels"
> <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
> >On Tuesday, December 13, 2022 at 10:39:48 AM UTC-5, Mack A. Damia wrote:
> >> On Tue, 13 Dec 2022 06:51:40 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels"
> >> <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
> >> >On Monday, December 12, 2022 at 5:46:29 PM UTC-5, Mack A. Damia wrote:
> >> >> Apologies if this has been discussed before, but when I was growing
> >> >> up, the name of the country in the Middle East was pronounced,
> >> >> "Kuh-TAR"
> >> >> Now it is pronounced:
> >> >> "CUTTER"
> >> >> Although I have heard it pronounced the former way occasionally by
> >> >> British journalists.
> >> >Have a look at the pronunciations given at its Wikiparticle. The BBC
> >> >has actually been conforming to what it says there, including the
> >> >final r.
> >> >https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qatar
> >> >"Qatar (UK: /?kæt??r, ?k?t-, ??æt-, ???t-, kæ?t??r, ?æ-, k?-/, US: /?k??t??r,
> >> >k??t??r/;[a] Arabic: ???, romanized: Qa?ar [?q?t??r]; local vernacular
> >> > pronunciation: [???t??r]),[ officially the State of Qatar,[b]"
> >> >Note a: " UK: KAT-ar, KUT-, GAT-, GUT-, ka-TAR, ga-, k?-
> >> >US: KAH-tar, k?-TAR"
> >> >Note b: " (Arabic: ???? ???, romanized: Dawlat Qa?ar)"
> >> >I realized why American journalists (used to) use "Gutter." It's
> >> >because the initial Q is not aspirated, and in English the voiceless
> >> >stops are aspirated except after s, so an unaspirated stop will be
> >> >interpreted as a voiced stop -- when Obama says "Pakistan," it
> >> >sounds a lot like "Bakistan" because he says it the way the locals do..
> >> >That property of English (and not other languages of Europe) was
> >> >taken advantage of when pinyin was devised. "Deng Xiaoping"
> >> >doesn't start with a D-as-in-dung, but with an unaspirated T as in
> >> >stung-without-the-s.
> >> I heard Lester Holt on NBC News pronounce it "KA-tar" last night.
> >> What is the point of copying pronunciations when certain characters do
> >> not copy and turn into "?"?
> >Perhaps a gentle hint that you might want to bring your computer
> >into the 21st century by setting the encoding to UTF-8?
>
> Done, but it hasn't made any difference in your original message in
> this thread. What's the point?

Don't ask me. I don't know what's connected to what. Maybe you
need to Restart or something.

On Tue, 13 Dec 2022 13:36:55 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels"
<grammatim@verizon.net> wrote:

>On Tuesday, December 13, 2022 at 2:46:04 PM UTC-5, Mack A. Damia wrote:
>> On Tue, 13 Dec 2022 10:54:38 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels"
>> <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
>> >On Tuesday, December 13, 2022 at 10:39:48 AM UTC-5, Mack A. Damia wrote:
>> >> On Tue, 13 Dec 2022 06:51:40 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels"
>> >> <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
>> >> >On Monday, December 12, 2022 at 5:46:29 PM UTC-5, Mack A. Damia wrote:
>
>> >> >> Apologies if this has been discussed before, but when I was growing
>> >> >> up, the name of the country in the Middle East was pronounced,
>> >> >> "Kuh-TAR"
>> >> >> Now it is pronounced:
>> >> >> "CUTTER"
>> >> >> Although I have heard it pronounced the former way occasionally by
>> >> >> British journalists.
>> >> >Have a look at the pronunciations given at its Wikiparticle. The BBC
>> >> >has actually been conforming to what it says there, including the
>> >> >final r.
>> >> >https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qatar
>> >> >"Qatar (UK: /?kæt??r, ?k?t-, ??æt-, ???t-, kæ?t??r, ?æ-, k?-/, US: /?k??t??r,
>> >> >k??t??r/;[a] Arabic: ???, romanized: Qa?ar [?q?t??r]; local vernacular
>> >> > pronunciation: [???t??r]),[ officially the State of Qatar,[b]"
>> >> >Note a: " UK: KAT-ar, KUT-, GAT-, GUT-, ka-TAR, ga-, k?-
>> >> >US: KAH-tar, k?-TAR"
>> >> >Note b: " (Arabic: ???? ???, romanized: Dawlat Qa?ar)"
>> >> >I realized why American journalists (used to) use "Gutter." It's
>> >> >because the initial Q is not aspirated, and in English the voiceless
>> >> >stops are aspirated except after s, so an unaspirated stop will be
>> >> >interpreted as a voiced stop -- when Obama says "Pakistan," it
>> >> >sounds a lot like "Bakistan" because he says it the way the locals do.
>> >> >That property of English (and not other languages of Europe) was
>> >> >taken advantage of when pinyin was devised. "Deng Xiaoping"
>> >> >doesn't start with a D-as-in-dung, but with an unaspirated T as in
>> >> >stung-without-the-s.
>> >> I heard Lester Holt on NBC News pronounce it "KA-tar" last night.
>> >> What is the point of copying pronunciations when certain characters do
>> >> not copy and turn into "?"?
>> >Perhaps a gentle hint that you might want to bring your computer
>> >into the 21st century by setting the encoding to UTF-8?
>>
>> Done, but it hasn't made any difference in your original message in
>> this thread. What's the point?
>
>Don't ask me. I don't know what's connected to what. Maybe you
>need to Restart or something.

That was done; it was necessary to install the program.

On Monday, December 12, 2022 at 2:46:29 PM UTC-8, Mack A. Damia wrote:
> Apologies if this has been discussed before, but when I was growing
> up, the name of the country in the Middle East was pronounced,
>
> "Kuh-TAR"
>
> Now it is pronounced:
>
> "CUTTER"
>
> Although I have heard it pronounced the former way occasionally by
> British journalists.

Qatar is never written in English as Gitar even if that's its natives'
pronunciation. In contrast, I once read that the sheikdom of Shariqa
(as per its Arabic spelling) is written in English as Sharjah which I
presume accords with its natives' pronunciation.

Remember when Mack A. Damia bragged outrageously? That was Tuesday:
> On Tue, 13 Dec 2022 06:51:40 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels"
> <grammatim@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>> On Monday, December 12, 2022 at 5:46:29 PM UTC-5, Mack A. Damia wrote:
>>> Apologies if this has been discussed before, but when I was growing
>>> up, the name of the country in the Middle East was pronounced,
>>>
>>> "Kuh-TAR"
>>>
>>> Now it is pronounced:
>>>
>>> "CUTTER"
>>>
>>> Although I have heard it pronounced the former way occasionally by
>>> British journalists.
>>
>> Have a look at the pronunciations given at its Wikiparticle. The BBC
>> has actually been conforming to what it says there, including the
>> final r.
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qatar
>>
>> "Qatar (UK: /?kæt??r, ?k?t-, ??æt-, ???t-, kæ?t??r, ?æ-, k?-/, US:
>> /?k??t??r, k??t??r/;[a] Arabic: ???, romanized: Qa?ar [?q?t??r]; local
>> vernacular pronunciation: [???t??r]),[ officially the State of Qatar,[b]"
>>
>> Note a: " UK: KAT-ar, KUT-, GAT-, GUT-, ka-TAR, ga-, k?-
>> US: KAH-tar, k?-TAR"
>>
>> Note b: " (Arabic: ???? ???, romanized: Dawlat Qa?ar)"
>>
>> I realized why American journalists (used to) use "Gutter." It's
>> because the initial Q is not aspirated, and in English the voiceless
>> stops are aspirated except after s, so an unaspirated stop will be
>> interpreted as a voiced stop -- when Obama says "Pakistan," it
>> sounds a lot like "Bakistan" because he says it the way the locals do.
>>
>> That property of English (and not other languages of Europe) was
>> taken advantage of when pinyin was devised. "Deng Xiaoping"
>> doesn't start with a D-as-in-dung, but with an unaspirated T as in
>> stung-without-the-s.
>
>
> I heard Lester Holt on NBC News pronounce it "KA-tar" last night.
>
> What is the point of copying pronunciations when certain characters do
> not copy and turn into "?"?

They came out alright in my noosereeder. Which isn't Forte, and
reached the point of the maintainer taking their hand off the tiller
much later than seems to be the case for Forte.

However, we haven't heard from Tony or the other Forte users and their
magic settings.

/dps

--
And the Raiders and the Broncos have life now in the West. I thought
they were both nearly dead if not quite really most sincerely dead. --
Mike Salfino, fivethirtyeight.com

On Wed, 14 Dec 2022 03:49:44 -0800, Snidely <snidely.too@gmail.com>
wrote:

>Remember when Mack A. Damia bragged outrageously? That was Tuesday:
>> On Tue, 13 Dec 2022 06:51:40 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels"
>> <grammatim@verizon.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On Monday, December 12, 2022 at 5:46:29 PM UTC-5, Mack A. Damia wrote:
>>>> Apologies if this has been discussed before, but when I was growing
>>>> up, the name of the country in the Middle East was pronounced,
>>>>
>>>> "Kuh-TAR"
>>>>
>>>> Now it is pronounced:
>>>>
>>>> "CUTTER"
>>>>
>>>> Although I have heard it pronounced the former way occasionally by
>>>> British journalists.
>>>
>>> Have a look at the pronunciations given at its Wikiparticle. The BBC
>>> has actually been conforming to what it says there, including the
>>> final r.
>>>
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qatar
>>>
>>> "Qatar (UK: /?kæt??r, ?k?t-, ??æt-, ???t-, kæ?t??r, ?æ-, k?-/, US:
>>> /?k??t??r, k??t??r/;[a] Arabic: ???, romanized: Qa?ar [?q?t??r]; local
>>> vernacular pronunciation: [???t??r]),[ officially the State of Qatar,[b]"
>>>
>>> Note a: " UK: KAT-ar, KUT-, GAT-, GUT-, ka-TAR, ga-, k?-
>>> US: KAH-tar, k?-TAR"
>>>
>>> Note b: " (Arabic: ???? ???, romanized: Dawlat Qa?ar)"
>>>
>>> I realized why American journalists (used to) use "Gutter." It's
>>> because the initial Q is not aspirated, and in English the voiceless
>>> stops are aspirated except after s, so an unaspirated stop will be
>>> interpreted as a voiced stop -- when Obama says "Pakistan," it
>>> sounds a lot like "Bakistan" because he says it the way the locals do.
>>>
>>> That property of English (and not other languages of Europe) was
>>> taken advantage of when pinyin was devised. "Deng Xiaoping"
>>> doesn't start with a D-as-in-dung, but with an unaspirated T as in
>>> stung-without-the-s.
>>
>>
>> I heard Lester Holt on NBC News pronounce it "KA-tar" last night.
>>
>> What is the point of copying pronunciations when certain characters do
>> not copy and turn into "?"?
>
>They came out alright in my noosereeder. Which isn't Forte, and
>reached the point of the maintainer taking their hand off the tiller
>much later than seems to be the case for Forte.
>
>However, we haven't heard from Tony or the other Forte users and their
>magic settings.

I use Forte 4.2, and PTD's suggestion made no difference.

Mack A. Damia speculated:
> On Wed, 14 Dec 2022 03:49:44 -0800, Snidely <snidely.too@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Remember when Mack A. Damia bragged outrageously? That was Tuesday:
>>> On Tue, 13 Dec 2022 06:51:40 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels"
>>> <grammatim@verizon.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Monday, December 12, 2022 at 5:46:29 PM UTC-5, Mack A. Damia wrote:
>>>>> Apologies if this has been discussed before, but when I was growing
>>>>> up, the name of the country in the Middle East was pronounced,
>>>>>
>>>>> "Kuh-TAR"
>>>>>
>>>>> Now it is pronounced:
>>>>>
>>>>> "CUTTER"
>>>>>
>>>>> Although I have heard it pronounced the former way occasionally by
>>>>> British journalists.
>>>>
>>>> Have a look at the pronunciations given at its Wikiparticle. The BBC
>>>> has actually been conforming to what it says there, including the
>>>> final r.
>>>>
>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qatar
>>>>
>>>> "Qatar (UK: /?kæt??r, ?k?t-, ??æt-, ???t-, kæ?t??r, ?æ-, k?-/, US:
>>>> /?k??t??r, k??t??r/;[a] Arabic: ???, romanized: Qa?ar [?q?t??r]; local
>>>> vernacular pronunciation: [???t??r]),[ officially the State of Qatar,[b]"
>>>>
>>>> Note a: " UK: KAT-ar, KUT-, GAT-, GUT-, ka-TAR, ga-, k?-
>>>> US: KAH-tar, k?-TAR"
>>>>
>>>> Note b: " (Arabic: ???? ???, romanized: Dawlat Qa?ar)"
>>>>
>>>> I realized why American journalists (used to) use "Gutter." It's
>>>> because the initial Q is not aspirated, and in English the voiceless
>>>> stops are aspirated except after s, so an unaspirated stop will be
>>>> interpreted as a voiced stop -- when Obama says "Pakistan," it
>>>> sounds a lot like "Bakistan" because he says it the way the locals do.
>>>>
>>>> That property of English (and not other languages of Europe) was
>>>> taken advantage of when pinyin was devised. "Deng Xiaoping"
>>>> doesn't start with a D-as-in-dung, but with an unaspirated T as in
>>>> stung-without-the-s.
>>>
>>>
>>> I heard Lester Holt on NBC News pronounce it "KA-tar" last night.
>>>
>>> What is the point of copying pronunciations when certain characters do
>>> not copy and turn into "?"?
>>
>> They came out alright in my noosereeder. Which isn't Forte, and
>> reached the point of the maintainer taking their hand off the tiller
>> much later than seems to be the case for Forte.
>>
>> However, we haven't heard from Tony or the other Forte users and their
>> magic settings.
>
> I use Forte 4.2, and PTD's suggestion made no difference.

PTD doesn't use Forte, and his suggestion seems to be system-level, not
noosereeder level. It appears that as of November there are about 6-8
Forte users in the group, counting various versions.

Tbird seems to have become more popular, despite frequent mutterings
about its shortcomings.

/dps

--
We’ve learned way more than we wanted to know about the early history
of American professional basketball, like that you could have once
watched a game between teams named the Indianapolis Kautskys and the
Akron Firestone Non-Skids. -- fivethirtyeight.com

On Wed, 14 Dec 2022 16:02:33 -0800, Snidely <snidely.too@gmail.com>
wrote:

>Mack A. Damia speculated:
>> On Wed, 14 Dec 2022 03:49:44 -0800, Snidely <snidely.too@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Remember when Mack A. Damia bragged outrageously? That was Tuesday:
>>>> On Tue, 13 Dec 2022 06:51:40 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels"
>>>> <grammatim@verizon.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Monday, December 12, 2022 at 5:46:29 PM UTC-5, Mack A. Damia wrote:
>>>>>> Apologies if this has been discussed before, but when I was growing
>>>>>> up, the name of the country in the Middle East was pronounced,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Kuh-TAR"
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Now it is pronounced:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "CUTTER"
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Although I have heard it pronounced the former way occasionally by
>>>>>> British journalists.
>>>>>
>>>>> Have a look at the pronunciations given at its Wikiparticle. The BBC
>>>>> has actually been conforming to what it says there, including the
>>>>> final r.
>>>>>
>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qatar
>>>>>
>>>>> "Qatar (UK: /?kæt??r, ?k?t-, ??æt-, ???t-, kæ?t??r, ?æ-, k?-/, US:
>>>>> /?k??t??r, k??t??r/;[a] Arabic: ???, romanized: Qa?ar [?q?t??r]; local
>>>>> vernacular pronunciation: [???t??r]),[ officially the State of Qatar,[b]"
>>>>>
>>>>> Note a: " UK: KAT-ar, KUT-, GAT-, GUT-, ka-TAR, ga-, k?-
>>>>> US: KAH-tar, k?-TAR"
>>>>>
>>>>> Note b: " (Arabic: ???? ???, romanized: Dawlat Qa?ar)"
>>>>>
>>>>> I realized why American journalists (used to) use "Gutter." It's
>>>>> because the initial Q is not aspirated, and in English the voiceless
>>>>> stops are aspirated except after s, so an unaspirated stop will be
>>>>> interpreted as a voiced stop -- when Obama says "Pakistan," it
>>>>> sounds a lot like "Bakistan" because he says it the way the locals do.
>>>>>
>>>>> That property of English (and not other languages of Europe) was
>>>>> taken advantage of when pinyin was devised. "Deng Xiaoping"
>>>>> doesn't start with a D-as-in-dung, but with an unaspirated T as in
>>>>> stung-without-the-s.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I heard Lester Holt on NBC News pronounce it "KA-tar" last night.
>>>>
>>>> What is the point of copying pronunciations when certain characters do
>>>> not copy and turn into "?"?
>>>
>>> They came out alright in my noosereeder. Which isn't Forte, and
>>> reached the point of the maintainer taking their hand off the tiller
>>> much later than seems to be the case for Forte.
>>>
>>> However, we haven't heard from Tony or the other Forte users and their
>>> magic settings.
>>
>> I use Forte 4.2, and PTD's suggestion made no difference.
>
>PTD doesn't use Forte, and his suggestion seems to be system-level, not
>noosereeder level. It appears that as of November there are about 6-8
>Forte users in the group, counting various versions.
>
>Tbird seems to have become more popular, despite frequent mutterings
>about its shortcomings.

I am not technically-oriented to this stuff and don't pretend to be.

I cannot wrap my mind around it.

On Wed, 14 Dec 2022 16:02:33 -0800, Snidely <snidely.too@gmail.com>
wrote:

>Mack A. Damia speculated:
>> On Wed, 14 Dec 2022 03:49:44 -0800, Snidely <snidely.too@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Remember when Mack A. Damia bragged outrageously? That was Tuesday:
>>>> On Tue, 13 Dec 2022 06:51:40 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels"
>>>> <grammatim@verizon.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Monday, December 12, 2022 at 5:46:29 PM UTC-5, Mack A. Damia wrote:
>>>>>> Apologies if this has been discussed before, but when I was growing
>>>>>> up, the name of the country in the Middle East was pronounced,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Kuh-TAR"
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Now it is pronounced:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "CUTTER"
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Although I have heard it pronounced the former way occasionally by
>>>>>> British journalists.
>>>>>
>>>>> Have a look at the pronunciations given at its Wikiparticle. The BBC
>>>>> has actually been conforming to what it says there, including the
>>>>> final r.
>>>>>
>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qatar
>>>>>
>>>>> "Qatar (UK: /?kæt??r, ?k?t-, ??æt-, ???t-, kæ?t??r, ?æ-, k?-/, US:
>>>>> /?k??t??r, k??t??r/;[a] Arabic: ???, romanized: Qa?ar [?q?t??r]; local
>>>>> vernacular pronunciation: [???t??r]),[ officially the State of Qatar,[b]"
>>>>>
>>>>> Note a: " UK: KAT-ar, KUT-, GAT-, GUT-, ka-TAR, ga-, k?-
>>>>> US: KAH-tar, k?-TAR"
>>>>>
>>>>> Note b: " (Arabic: ???? ???, romanized: Dawlat Qa?ar)"
>>>>>
>>>>> I realized why American journalists (used to) use "Gutter." It's
>>>>> because the initial Q is not aspirated, and in English the voiceless
>>>>> stops are aspirated except after s, so an unaspirated stop will be
>>>>> interpreted as a voiced stop -- when Obama says "Pakistan," it
>>>>> sounds a lot like "Bakistan" because he says it the way the locals do.
>>>>>
>>>>> That property of English (and not other languages of Europe) was
>>>>> taken advantage of when pinyin was devised. "Deng Xiaoping"
>>>>> doesn't start with a D-as-in-dung, but with an unaspirated T as in
>>>>> stung-without-the-s.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I heard Lester Holt on NBC News pronounce it "KA-tar" last night.
>>>>
>>>> What is the point of copying pronunciations when certain characters do
>>>> not copy and turn into "?"?
>>>
>>> They came out alright in my noosereeder. Which isn't Forte, and
>>> reached the point of the maintainer taking their hand off the tiller
>>> much later than seems to be the case for Forte.
>>>
>>> However, we haven't heard from Tony or the other Forte users and their
>>> magic settings.
>>
>> I use Forte 4.2, and PTD's suggestion made no difference.
>
>PTD doesn't use Forte, and his suggestion seems to be system-level, not
>noosereeder level. It appears that as of November there are about 6-8
>Forte users in the group, counting various versions.
>
>Tbird seems to have become more popular, despite frequent mutterings
>about its shortcomings.

I'm one of the Forte (V7) users, and I haven't done anything along
these lines. I don't use those pronunciaton symbols and have no
interest in doing so.

In my daily life, when speaking to others, the only times prounciation
of words come up is when I'm trying to pronounce a medication I'm
taking or when pronouncing someone's last name.

--

Tony Cooper - Orlando Florida

I read and post to this group as a form of entertainment.

On Wednesday, Tony Cooper queried:
> On Wed, 14 Dec 2022 16:02:33 -0800, Snidely <snidely.too@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Mack A. Damia speculated:
>>> On Wed, 14 Dec 2022 03:49:44 -0800, Snidely <snidely.too@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Remember when Mack A. Damia bragged outrageously? That was Tuesday:
>>>>> On Tue, 13 Dec 2022 06:51:40 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels"
>>>>> <grammatim@verizon.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Monday, December 12, 2022 at 5:46:29 PM UTC-5, Mack A. Damia wrote:
>>>>>>> Apologies if this has been discussed before, but when I was growing
>>>>>>> up, the name of the country in the Middle East was pronounced,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Kuh-TAR"
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Now it is pronounced:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "CUTTER"
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Although I have heard it pronounced the former way occasionally by
>>>>>>> British journalists.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Have a look at the pronunciations given at its Wikiparticle. The BBC
>>>>>> has actually been conforming to what it says there, including the
>>>>>> final r.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qatar
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Qatar (UK: /?kæt??r, ?k?t-, ??æt-, ???t-, kæ?t??r, ?æ-, k?-/, US:
>>>>>> /?k??t??r, k??t??r/;[a] Arabic: ???, romanized: Qa?ar [?q?t??r]; local
>>>>>> vernacular pronunciation: [???t??r]),[ officially the State of
>>>>>> Qatar,[b]"
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Note a: " UK: KAT-ar, KUT-, GAT-, GUT-, ka-TAR, ga-, k?-
>>>>>> US: KAH-tar, k?-TAR"
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Note b: " (Arabic: ???? ???, romanized: Dawlat Qa?ar)"
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I realized why American journalists (used to) use "Gutter." It's
>>>>>> because the initial Q is not aspirated, and in English the voiceless
>>>>>> stops are aspirated except after s, so an unaspirated stop will be
>>>>>> interpreted as a voiced stop -- when Obama says "Pakistan," it
>>>>>> sounds a lot like "Bakistan" because he says it the way the locals do.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That property of English (and not other languages of Europe) was
>>>>>> taken advantage of when pinyin was devised. "Deng Xiaoping"
>>>>>> doesn't start with a D-as-in-dung, but with an unaspirated T as in
>>>>>> stung-without-the-s.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I heard Lester Holt on NBC News pronounce it "KA-tar" last night.
>>>>>
>>>>> What is the point of copying pronunciations when certain characters do
>>>>> not copy and turn into "?"?
>>>>
>>>> They came out alright in my noosereeder. Which isn't Forte, and
>>>> reached the point of the maintainer taking their hand off the tiller
>>>> much later than seems to be the case for Forte.
>>>>
>>>> However, we haven't heard from Tony or the other Forte users and their
>>>> magic settings.
>>>
>>> I use Forte 4.2, and PTD's suggestion made no difference.
>>
>> PTD doesn't use Forte, and his suggestion seems to be system-level, not
>> noosereeder level. It appears that as of November there are about 6-8
>> Forte users in the group, counting various versions.
>>
>> Tbird seems to have become more popular, despite frequent mutterings
>> about its shortcomings.
>
> I'm one of the Forte (V7) users, and I haven't done anything along
> these lines. I don't use those pronunciaton symbols and have no
> interest in doing so.

We aren't asking you to use the symbols, we're asking if you received
them as symbols, as question marks, or as funny blocks.

> In my daily life, when speaking to others, the only times prounciation
> of words come up is when I'm trying to pronounce a medication I'm
> taking or when pronouncing someone's last name.

Well, that's because you've already absorbed the maximum vocabulary
possible. You near-omniscience is to be envied.

/dps

--
"What do you think of my cart, Miss Morland? A neat one, is not it?
Well hung: curricle-hung in fact. Come sit by me and we'll test the
springs."
(Speculative fiction by H.Lacedaemonian.)

On Thu, 15 Dec 2022 00:41:43 -0800, Snidely <snidely.too@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On Wednesday, Tony Cooper queried:
>> On Wed, 14 Dec 2022 16:02:33 -0800, Snidely <snidely.too@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Mack A. Damia speculated:
>>>> On Wed, 14 Dec 2022 03:49:44 -0800, Snidely <snidely.too@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Remember when Mack A. Damia bragged outrageously? That was Tuesday:
>>>>>> On Tue, 13 Dec 2022 06:51:40 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels"
>>>>>> <grammatim@verizon.net> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Monday, December 12, 2022 at 5:46:29 PM UTC-5, Mack A. Damia wrote:
>>>>>>>> Apologies if this has been discussed before, but when I was growing
>>>>>>>> up, the name of the country in the Middle East was pronounced,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Kuh-TAR"
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Now it is pronounced:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "CUTTER"
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Although I have heard it pronounced the former way occasionally by
>>>>>>>> British journalists.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Have a look at the pronunciations given at its Wikiparticle. The BBC
>>>>>>> has actually been conforming to what it says there, including the
>>>>>>> final r.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qatar
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Qatar (UK: /?kæt??r, ?k?t-, ??æt-, ???t-, kæ?t??r, ?æ-, k?-/, US:
>>>>>>> /?k??t??r, k??t??r/;[a] Arabic: ???, romanized: Qa?ar [?q?t??r]; local
>>>>>>> vernacular pronunciation: [???t??r]),[ officially the State of
>>>>>>> Qatar,[b]"
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Note a: " UK: KAT-ar, KUT-, GAT-, GUT-, ka-TAR, ga-, k?-
>>>>>>> US: KAH-tar, k?-TAR"
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Note b: " (Arabic: ???? ???, romanized: Dawlat Qa?ar)"
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I realized why American journalists (used to) use "Gutter." It's
>>>>>>> because the initial Q is not aspirated, and in English the voiceless
>>>>>>> stops are aspirated except after s, so an unaspirated stop will be
>>>>>>> interpreted as a voiced stop -- when Obama says "Pakistan," it
>>>>>>> sounds a lot like "Bakistan" because he says it the way the locals do.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That property of English (and not other languages of Europe) was
>>>>>>> taken advantage of when pinyin was devised. "Deng Xiaoping"
>>>>>>> doesn't start with a D-as-in-dung, but with an unaspirated T as in
>>>>>>> stung-without-the-s.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I heard Lester Holt on NBC News pronounce it "KA-tar" last night.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What is the point of copying pronunciations when certain characters do
>>>>>> not copy and turn into "?"?
>>>>>
>>>>> They came out alright in my noosereeder. Which isn't Forte, and
>>>>> reached the point of the maintainer taking their hand off the tiller
>>>>> much later than seems to be the case for Forte.
>>>>>
>>>>> However, we haven't heard from Tony or the other Forte users and their
>>>>> magic settings.
>>>>
>>>> I use Forte 4.2, and PTD's suggestion made no difference.
>>>
>>> PTD doesn't use Forte, and his suggestion seems to be system-level, not
>>> noosereeder level. It appears that as of November there are about 6-8
>>> Forte users in the group, counting various versions.
>>>
>>> Tbird seems to have become more popular, despite frequent mutterings
>>> about its shortcomings.
>>
>> I'm one of the Forte (V7) users, and I haven't done anything along
>> these lines. I don't use those pronunciaton symbols and have no
>> interest in doing so.
>
>We aren't asking you to use the symbols, we're asking if you received
>them as symbols, as question marks, or as funny blocks.

I receive them as question marks.

>
>> In my daily life, when speaking to others, the only times prounciation
>> of words come up is when I'm trying to pronounce a medication I'm
>> taking or when pronouncing someone's last name.
>
>Well, that's because you've already absorbed the maximum vocabulary
>possible. You near-omniscience is to be envied.

No, it's because in my daily life I'm not the type of person who
questions someone else's pronunciation if I understand what they're
trying to say.

Should I engage in conversation later today with someone who
pronounces "Qatar" in a way that's different from what I expect, and I
understand they are talking about the site of that series of games, I
don't attempt to direct the conversation into a discussion about
pronunciation.

I might, however, ask the person how to pronounce "Messi".

--

Tony Cooper - Orlando Florida

I read and post to this group as a form of entertainment.

On Wednesday, December 14, 2022 at 8:07:52 PM UTC-5, Tony Cooper wrote:
> On Wed, 14 Dec 2022 16:02:33 -0800, Snidely <snide...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >Mack A. Damia speculated:
> >> On Wed, 14 Dec 2022 03:49:44 -0800, Snidely <snide...@gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>> Remember when Mack A. Damia bragged outrageously? That was Tuesday:
> >>>> What is the point of copying pronunciations when certain characters do
> >>>> not copy and turn into "?"?
> >>> They came out alright in my noosereeder. Which isn't Forte, and
> >>> reached the point of the maintainer taking their hand off the tiller
> >>> much later than seems to be the case for Forte.
> >>> However, we haven't heard from Tony or the other Forte users and their
> >>> magic settings.
> >> I use Forte 4.2, and PTD's suggestion made no difference.
> >PTD doesn't use Forte, and his suggestion seems to be system-level, not
> >noosereeder level. It appears that as of November there are about 6-8
> >Forte users in the group, counting various versions.
> >Tbird seems to have become more popular, despite frequent mutterings
> >about its shortcomings.
>
> I'm one of the Forte (V7) users, and I haven't done anything along
> these lines. I don't use those pronunciaton symbols and have no
> interest in doing so.

The only relevant point is not your indifference to discussions of
the Usage of English, but whether you see the symbols or question
marks.

You neglected to provide that information.

On 16/12/22 01:04, Tony Cooper wrote:

> Should I engage in conversation later today with someone who
> pronounces "Qatar" in a way that's different from what I expect, and I
> understand they are talking about the site of that series of games, I
> don't attempt to direct the conversation into a discussion about
> pronunciation.
>
> I might, however, ask the person how to pronounce "Messi".

I didn't even know there was a place or thing called Messi.

--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org

On Fri, 16 Dec 2022 12:57:02 +1100, Peter Moylan
<peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:

>On 16/12/22 01:04, Tony Cooper wrote:
>
>> Should I engage in conversation later today with someone who
>> pronounces "Qatar" in a way that's different from what I expect, and I
>> understand they are talking about the site of that series of games, I
>> don't attempt to direct the conversation into a discussion about
>> pronunciation.
>>
>> I might, however, ask the person how to pronounce "Messi".
>
>I didn't even know there was a place or thing called Messi.

You've left out the third catagory: person

--

Tony Cooper - Orlando Florida

I read and post to this group as a form of entertainment.

On Thursday, December 15, 2022 at 5:57:07 PM UTC-8, Peter Moylan wrote:
> On 16/12/22 01:04, Tony Cooper wrote:
>
> > Should I engage in conversation later today with someone who
> > pronounces "Qatar" in a way that's different from what I expect, and I
> > understand they are talking about the site of that series of games, I
> > don't attempt to direct the conversation into a discussion about
> > pronunciation.
> >
> > I might, however, ask the person how to pronounce "Messi".
> I didn't even know there was a place or thing called Messi.
>
Lionel Messi is an Argentinian soccer player who is the most celebrated
-- and many say the best -- soccer player in the world at the moment (December
2022). When he's not playing for the Argentinian national team, he plays for
whichever European club team will pay him best. Lately, that has been the
French club team Paris St. Germain.

bill