Dr. Quinn (Medicine Woman), commenting on her daughter asking for
earrings:

I wasn't allowed a pair until my coming out.

They considered that obscure (or prone to misunderstanding) enough in
the 1990s that they worked an explanation into the dialogue. From
memory:

Man: And what exactly did you come out of?
Dr. Quinn: I'm referring to my debutante ball.
Woman: They call it "Sweet Sixteen parties" out here in the West.

Does someone in this group remember this meaning in real life?

--
We say, 'If any lady or gentleman shall buy this article _____ shall
have it for five dollars.' The blank may be filled with he, she, it,
or they; or in any other manner; and yet the form of the expression
will be too vulgar to be uttered. -- Wkly Jrnl of Commerce (1839)

On Tuesday, September 6, 2022 at 7:52:31 PM UTC-6, Quinn C wrote:
> Dr. Quinn (Medicine Woman), commenting on her daughter asking for
> earrings:
>
> I wasn't allowed a pair until my coming out.
>
> They considered that obscure (or prone to misunderstanding) enough in
> the 1990s that they worked an explanation into the dialogue.

I imagine they were right, and of course they were playing the misunderstanding
for mild humor, since Dr. Quinn could have just said "since my debutante ball."

> From memory:
>
> Man: And what exactly did you come out of?
> Dr. Quinn: I'm referring to my debutante ball.
> Woman: They call it "Sweet Sixteen parties" out here in the West.

Out here in the West they call it quinceañeras.

> Does someone in this group remember this meaning in real life?

I was on the periphery of that world's remnants, and a male friend of mine
had some sort of "introduction to society" or "coming out", which he didn't
seem comfortable talking about with me. I suppose some of my female
classmates in high school and college had been debutantes, but I didn't
move in those circles.

--
Jerry Friedman

In article <01010806-c279-41e0-8722-9ba849d8e9ban@googlegroups.com>,
Jerry Friedman <jerry_friedman@yahoo.com> wrote:
>On Tuesday, September 6, 2022 at 7:52:31 PM UTC-6, Quinn C wrote:

>> Does someone in this group remember this meaning in real life?
>
>I was on the periphery of that world's remnants, and a male friend of mine
>had some sort of "introduction to society" or "coming out", which he didn't
>seem comfortable talking about with me.

I certainly remember the phrase and the concept, but "society" was, as
they say, "a foreign country" to me. I'm not sure in what context I
heard about it -- most likely 80s TV? Or perhaps English class?

I went to parochial school, so a whole panoply of wealthy WASPy social
practices was completely unfamiliar to me.

-GAWollman

--
Garrett A. Wollman | "Act to avoid constraining the future; if you can,
wollman@bimajority.org| act to remove constraint from the future. This is
Opinions not shared by| a thing you can do, are able to do, to do together."
my employers. | - Graydon Saunders, _A Succession of Bad Days_ (2015)

On Tue, 6 Sep 2022 19:54:02 -0700 (PDT), Jerry Friedman
<jerry_friedman@yahoo.com> wrote:

>On Tuesday, September 6, 2022 at 7:52:31 PM UTC-6, Quinn C wrote:
>> Dr. Quinn (Medicine Woman), commenting on her daughter asking for
>> earrings:
>>
>> I wasn't allowed a pair until my coming out.
>>
>> They considered that obscure (or prone to misunderstanding) enough in
>> the 1990s that they worked an explanation into the dialogue.
>
>I imagine they were right, and of course they were playing the misunderstanding
>for mild humor, since Dr. Quinn could have just said "since my debutante ball."
>
>> From memory:
>>
>> Man: And what exactly did you come out of?
>> Dr. Quinn: I'm referring to my debutante ball.
>> Woman: They call it "Sweet Sixteen parties" out here in the West.
>
>Out here in the West they call it quinceañeras.

The quinceañera is celebrated when the girl turns 15, not 16. A very
big deal here in Florida for Hispanic families.

A debutante comes out at 16 to 21 depending on local custom. The
"comes out" refers to the girl coming out to society.

"Sweet Sixteen" parties are very common for girls in this area, but a
"Sweet Sixteen" party is not necessarily as formal as a quinceañera.

>
>> Does someone in this group remember this meaning in real life?
>
>I was on the periphery of that world's remnants, and a male friend of mine
>had some sort of "introduction to society" or "coming out", which he didn't
>seem comfortable talking about with me. I suppose some of my female
>classmates in high school and college had been debutantes, but I didn't
>move in those circles.
--

Tony Cooper - Orlando Florida

I read and post to this group as a form of entertainment.

On 07/09/22 12:54, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> On Tuesday, September 6, 2022 at 7:52:31 PM UTC-6, Quinn C wrote:

>> From memory:
>>
>> Man: And what exactly did you come out of? Dr. Quinn: I'm
>> referring to my debutante ball. Woman: They call it "Sweet Sixteen
>> parties" out here in the West.
>
> Out here in the West they call it quinceañeras.
>
>> Does someone in this group remember this meaning in real life?
>
> I was on the periphery of that world's remnants, and a male friend
> of mine had some sort of "introduction to society" or "coming out",
> which he didn't seem comfortable talking about with me. I suppose
> some of my female classmates in high school and college had been
> debutantes, but I didn't move in those circles.

I was literally in the middle of the debutante ball. At the age of 7 I,
and a female classmate, were required to take special dance lessons so
that we could lead the debutantes out onto the dance floor. I think -
although my memories of this have faded - that we even had to waltz
around the room before the debutantes began to dance.

It was somewhat embarrassing. My dance partner had obviously been picked
out for her cute appearance. Was I also considered cute?

By the time I was 16, coming out was no longer a fashion in our town.

--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org

In article <ervmoqvk4ymi$.dlg@mid.crommatograph.info>,
Quinn C <lispamateur@crommatograph.info> wrote:
> Dr. Quinn (Medicine Woman), commenting on her daughter asking for
> earrings:

> I wasn't allowed a pair until my coming out.

> They considered that obscure (or prone to misunderstanding) enough in
> the 1990s that they worked an explanation into the dialogue. From
> memory:

> Man: And what exactly did you come out of?
> Dr. Quinn: I'm referring to my debutante ball.
> Woman: They call it "Sweet Sixteen parties" out here in the West.

> Does someone in this group remember this meaning in real life?

I have a cousin, my age, who was in the last group of young ladies to be
'presented at court'. 'Coming out' meant that one came out from the family
group and was placed in the "looking for husband' category.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England - sent from my RISC OS 4té
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

On 2022-09-07 07:15:34 +0000, charles said:

> In article <ervmoqvk4ymi$.dlg@mid.crommatograph.info>,
> Quinn C <lispamateur@crommatograph.info> wrote:
>> Dr. Quinn (Medicine Woman), commenting on her daughter asking for
>> earrings:
>
>> I wasn't allowed a pair until my coming out.
>
>> They considered that obscure (or prone to misunderstanding) enough in
>> the 1990s that they worked an explanation into the dialogue. From
>> memory:
>
>> Man: And what exactly did you come out of?
>> Dr. Quinn: I'm referring to my debutante ball.
>> Woman: They call it "Sweet Sixteen parties" out here in the West.
>
>> Does someone in this group remember this meaning in real life?
>
> I have a cousin, my age, who was in the last group of young ladies to be
> 'presented at court'. 'Coming out' meant that one came out from the family
> group and was placed in the "looking for husband' category.

One of my aunts was presented at court. I forget which one. Probably
the one who used to go on bicycle rides with Klaus Fuchs but never did
get married, not her younger sister who married a dentist and had five
children.

--
Athel -- French and British, living mainly in England until 1987.

On 9/7/2022 4:02 AM, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> charles said:
>> Quinn C <lispamateur@crommatograph.info> wrote:

>>> Dr. Quinn (Medicine Woman), commenting on her daughter asking
>>> for earrings:

>>> I wasn't allowed a pair until my coming out.
>>
>>> They considered that obscure (or prone to misunderstanding)
>>> enough in the 1990s that they worked an explanation into the
>>> dialogue. From memory:

>>> Man: And what exactly did you come out of? Dr. Quinn: I'm
>>> referring to my debutante ball. Woman: They call it "Sweet
>>> Sixteen parties" out here in the West.

>>> Does someone in this group remember this meaning in real life?

>> I have a cousin, my age, who was in the last group of young ladies
>> to be 'presented at court'. 'Coming out' meant that one came out
>> from the family group and was placed in the "looking for husband'
>> category.

> One of my aunts was presented at court. I forget which one. Probably
> the one who used to go on bicycle rides with Klaus Fuchs but never
> did get married, not her younger sister who married a dentist and had
> five children.

My mother came out when she was eighteen. There was a ceremony in which
a group of young ladies were presented to the Governor General, the
closest thing we had to court.

I still have a portrait photo taken then, in a costume I thought was her
wedding dress when I was young.

* Tony Cooper:

> On Tue, 6 Sep 2022 19:54:02 -0700 (PDT), Jerry Friedman
> <jerry_friedman@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>On Tuesday, September 6, 2022 at 7:52:31 PM UTC-6, Quinn C wrote:
>>> Dr. Quinn (Medicine Woman), commenting on her daughter asking for
>>> earrings:
>>>
>>> I wasn't allowed a pair until my coming out.
>>>
>>> They considered that obscure (or prone to misunderstanding) enough in
>>> the 1990s that they worked an explanation into the dialogue.
>>
>>I imagine they were right, and of course they were playing the misunderstanding
>>for mild humor, since Dr. Quinn could have just said "since my debutante ball."
>>
>>> From memory:
>>>
>>> Man: And what exactly did you come out of?
>>> Dr. Quinn: I'm referring to my debutante ball.
>>> Woman: They call it "Sweet Sixteen parties" out here in the West.
>>
>>Out here in the West they call it quinceañeras.
>
> The quinceañera is celebrated when the girl turns 15, not 16. A very
> big deal here in Florida for Hispanic families.
>
> A debutante comes out at 16 to 21 depending on local custom. The
> "comes out" refers to the girl coming out to society.
>
> "Sweet Sixteen" parties are very common for girls in this area, but a
> "Sweet Sixteen" party is not necessarily as formal as a quinceañera.

They are clearly parallel rites of passage. I couldn't name something
similar in German. Digging a little, the Vienna Opera Ball apparently
includes a "coming-out", with the young couples forming the "young
ladies and gents committee". "Debütantin" seems to be the only word we
have for a single (woman) member; I guess that's an import from English.
Usually, that word is used for musicians or actors having their first
big performance.

Most of my peers went to dance school age 14-15; I guess that was a
remnant of that line of tradition. I refused. Once upon a time, what you
learned there may have helped boys and girls approach each other in a
respectful way, but from my perspective, such formalities were creating
an artificial distance that I had no use for. Neither had I use for
being embarrassed by my predictably clumsy performance.

In my sporadic viewing of the series, I'm about to arrive at the double
episode "Cooper vs. Quinn". I'll pay extra attention.

--
Quinn C
My pronouns are they/them
(or other gender-neutral ones)

* charles:

> In article <ervmoqvk4ymi$.dlg@mid.crommatograph.info>,
> Quinn C <lispamateur@crommatograph.info> wrote:
>> Dr. Quinn (Medicine Woman), commenting on her daughter asking for
>> earrings:
>
>> I wasn't allowed a pair until my coming out.
>
>> They considered that obscure (or prone to misunderstanding) enough in
>> the 1990s that they worked an explanation into the dialogue. From
>> memory:
>
>> Man: And what exactly did you come out of?
>> Dr. Quinn: I'm referring to my debutante ball.
>> Woman: They call it "Sweet Sixteen parties" out here in the West.
>
>> Does someone in this group remember this meaning in real life?
>
> I have a cousin, my age, who was in the last group of young ladies to be
> 'presented at court'.

Abolished in 1958, according to Wikipedia.

--
Quinn C
My pronouns are they/them
(or other gender-neutral ones)

On Tuesday, September 6, 2022 at 9:52:31 PM UTC-4, Quinn C wrote:

> Dr. Quinn (Medicine Woman), commenting on her daughter asking for
> earrings:
>
> I wasn't allowed a pair until my coming out.
>
> They considered that obscure (or prone to misunderstanding) enough in
> the 1990s that they worked an explanation into the dialogue. From
> memory:
>
> Man: And what exactly did you come out of?
> Dr. Quinn: I'm referring to my debutante ball.
> Woman: They call it "Sweet Sixteen parties" out here in the West.

Nowadays they do it sooner and call it a quinceanera. [Google
knew what I meant even though I did not know how to spell it.
Does DDG do that for you?]

> Does someone in this group remember this meaning in real life?

Only the upper classes would, but it was well known from
romantic novels and movies.

I never saw an episode of that series, but I'd guess, Jane Seymour
being who she is, that her back-story involved emigrating from
Britain, where somehow she had a medical education, which she
would have had to have been from an upper class in order to
finagle, so she probably had an ordinary debut.

Or maybe from Philadelphia, where they talked posh?

Incidentally, Jane Seymour was the septua- or octogenarian
nympho in the retirement home in the second season of
*B Positive* (CBS hasn't been promoting the return of the
series, so maybe it ran its course and they couldn't come
up with a convincing third environment to take its small
group of regular characters to) and she was hilarious.

On Wednesday, September 7, 2022 at 11:09:09 AM UTC-4, Quinn C wrote:

> "Debütantin" seems to be the only word we
> have for a single (woman) member; I guess that's an import from English.
> Usually, that word is used for musicians or actors having their first
> big performance.

Yes, one makes one's debut at Carnegie Hall if one is spectacularly
well-connected and brilliantly talented.

The English -ante is already feminine -- I wonder why it grew the -in.
The young man who is dragooned into escorting her is not making
his debut. (PM having to do it at 7 is quite odd.)

> Most of my peers went to dance school age 14-15; I guess that was a
> remnant of that line of tradition. I refused. Once upon a time, what you
> learned there may have helped boys and girls approach each other in a
> respectful way, but from my perspective, such formalities were creating
> an artificial distance that I had no use for. Neither had I use for
> being embarrassed by my predictably clumsy performance.

That last failing might have been cured by early dance lessons,
which would have turned out to be useful preparation for self-
presentation as a transwoman.

On Wed, 7 Sep 2022 11:09:03 -0400, Quinn C
<lispamateur@crommatograph.info> wrote:

>* Tony Cooper:
>
>> On Tue, 6 Sep 2022 19:54:02 -0700 (PDT), Jerry Friedman
>> <jerry_friedman@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>>On Tuesday, September 6, 2022 at 7:52:31 PM UTC-6, Quinn C wrote:
>>>> Dr. Quinn (Medicine Woman), commenting on her daughter asking for
>>>> earrings:
>>>>
>>>> I wasn't allowed a pair until my coming out.
>>>>
>>>> They considered that obscure (or prone to misunderstanding) enough in
>>>> the 1990s that they worked an explanation into the dialogue.
>>>
>>>I imagine they were right, and of course they were playing the misunderstanding
>>>for mild humor, since Dr. Quinn could have just said "since my debutante ball."
>>>
>>>> From memory:
>>>>
>>>> Man: And what exactly did you come out of?
>>>> Dr. Quinn: I'm referring to my debutante ball.
>>>> Woman: They call it "Sweet Sixteen parties" out here in the West.
>>>
>>>Out here in the West they call it quinceañeras.
>>
>> The quinceañera is celebrated when the girl turns 15, not 16. A very
>> big deal here in Florida for Hispanic families.
>>
>> A debutante comes out at 16 to 21 depending on local custom. The
>> "comes out" refers to the girl coming out to society.
>>
>> "Sweet Sixteen" parties are very common for girls in this area, but a
>> "Sweet Sixteen" party is not necessarily as formal as a quinceañera.
>
>They are clearly parallel rites of passage. I couldn't name something
>similar in German. Digging a little, the Vienna Opera Ball apparently
>includes a "coming-out", with the young couples forming the "young
>ladies and gents committee". "Debütantin" seems to be the only word we
>have for a single (woman) member; I guess that's an import from English.
>Usually, that word is used for musicians or actors having their first
>big performance.
>
>Most of my peers went to dance school age 14-15; I guess that was a
>remnant of that line of tradition. I refused. Once upon a time, what you
>learned there may have helped boys and girls approach each other in a
>respectful way, but from my perspective, such formalities were creating
>an artificial distance that I had no use for. Neither had I use for
>being embarrassed by my predictably clumsy performance.
>
>In my sporadic viewing of the series, I'm about to arrive at the double
>episode "Cooper vs. Quinn". I'll pay extra attention.

When I was in the 7th grade (about 13 years-old) I wanted a new
bicycle. My father had always purchased used bicycles for my brother
and me, and I wanted a brand-new one. My aunt said she'd buy me one
if I would take dance lessons.

Consequently, I enrolled in the Palmer Dance Academy (known as "Sweaty
Palms" by those who also attended) which was run by Mr and Mrs Palmer.
Mrs Palmer was a tall, formidable lady with a huge jutting bosom
encased in a rigid construction of some sort of undergarment. Mr
Palmer was a wispy little man who was most noted for his severe
halitosis.

Class stared with the boys lining up on one side of the room and the
girls lining up on the opposite side of the room. We walked across
the room to meet our partner for the night. Invariably, my girl
partner was at least a head taller than I was, and made it very clear
that I was not the partner she would have chosen.

As far as I remember, all we were taught was the "box step" waltz.
There was a great deal of attention to where hands were placed on the
girl's body. The proper etiquette of asking the girl for the next
dance was taught, but the girls were not taught the proper etiquette
of pretending that they were at all pleased to be asked.

The worst thing that could happen in a session was to be chosen by Mr
or Mrs Palmer to demonstrate the moves for the rest of the group. For
a boy, a misstep and the resulting bounce off that rigid encasement
and that jutting bosom was a terrifying experience. For a girl, Mr
Palmer's halitosis became evident from several feet away, and
overpowering when closer.

My aunt did make good on the bicycle offer, though.

--

Tony Cooper - Orlando Florida

I read and post to this group as a form of entertainment.

In article <rdb5k82miock.dlg@mid.crommatograph.info>,
Quinn C <lispamateur@crommatograph.info> wrote:
> * charles:

> > In article <ervmoqvk4ymi$.dlg@mid.crommatograph.info>,
> > Quinn C <lispamateur@crommatograph.info> wrote:
> >> Dr. Quinn (Medicine Woman), commenting on her daughter asking for
> >> earrings:
> >
> >> I wasn't allowed a pair until my coming out.
> >
> >> They considered that obscure (or prone to misunderstanding) enough in
> >> the 1990s that they worked an explanation into the dialogue. From
> >> memory:
> >
> >> Man: And what exactly did you come out of?
> >> Dr. Quinn: I'm referring to my debutante ball.
> >> Woman: They call it "Sweet Sixteen parties" out here in the West.
> >
> >> Does someone in this group remember this meaning in real life?
> >
> > I have a cousin, my age, who was in the last group of young ladies to be
> > 'presented at court'.

> Abolished in 1958, according to Wikipedia.

She'd have been 18.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England - sent from my RISC OS 4té
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

On 07-Sep-22 4:45, Tony Cooper wrote:

> A debutante comes out at 16 to 21 depending on local custom. The
> "comes out" refers to the girl coming out to society.

Essentially.
In the market for a suitable husband. Now open to offers.

--
Sam Plusnet

On Wed, 07 Sep 2022 12:19:23 -0400
Tony Cooper <tonycooper214@gmail.com> wrote:

[formal dance class]

> that I was not the partner she would have chosen.
>
My sympathies
[]
> My aunt did make good on the bicycle offer, though.
>
Well it all turned out all right in the end.
--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.

On 2022-09-07, Quinn C wrote:

> * Tony Cooper:
>
>> On Tue, 6 Sep 2022 19:54:02 -0700 (PDT), Jerry Friedman
>> <jerry_friedman@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>>On Tuesday, September 6, 2022 at 7:52:31 PM UTC-6, Quinn C wrote:
>>>> Dr. Quinn (Medicine Woman), commenting on her daughter asking for
>>>> earrings:
>>>>
>>>> I wasn't allowed a pair until my coming out.
>>>>
>>>> They considered that obscure (or prone to misunderstanding) enough in
>>>> the 1990s that they worked an explanation into the dialogue.
>>>
>>>I imagine they were right, and of course they were playing the misunderstanding
>>>for mild humor, since Dr. Quinn could have just said "since my debutante ball."
>>>
>>>> From memory:
>>>>
>>>> Man: And what exactly did you come out of?
>>>> Dr. Quinn: I'm referring to my debutante ball.
>>>> Woman: They call it "Sweet Sixteen parties" out here in the West.
>>>
>>>Out here in the West they call it quinceañeras.
>>
>> The quinceañera is celebrated when the girl turns 15, not 16. A very
>> big deal here in Florida for Hispanic families.
>>
>> A debutante comes out at 16 to 21 depending on local custom. The
>> "comes out" refers to the girl coming out to society.
>>
>> "Sweet Sixteen" parties are very common for girls in this area, but a
>> "Sweet Sixteen" party is not necessarily as formal as a quinceañera.
>
> They are clearly parallel rites of passage. I couldn't name something
> similar in German. Digging a little, the Vienna Opera Ball apparently
> includes a "coming-out", with the young couples forming the "young
> ladies and gents committee". "Debütantin" seems to be the only word we
> have for a single (woman) member; I guess that's an import from English.

....with the French /y/ explicitly put back in; the second syllable in
English is /ju/ or /jə/.

> Usually, that word is used for musicians or actors having their first
> big performance.
>
> Most of my peers went to dance school age 14-15; I guess that was a
> remnant of that line of tradition. I refused. Once upon a time, what you
> learned there may have helped boys and girls approach each other in a
> respectful way, but from my perspective, such formalities were creating
> an artificial distance that I had no use for. Neither had I use for
> being embarrassed by my predictably clumsy performance.
>
> In my sporadic viewing of the series, I'm about to arrive at the double
> episode "Cooper vs. Quinn". I'll pay extra attention.
>

--
We seem to understand the value of oil, timber, minerals, and
housing, but not the value of unspoiled beauty, wildlife,
solitude, and spiritual renewal. ---Calvin

* Adam Funk:

> On 2022-09-07, Quinn C wrote:
>
>> * Tony Cooper:
>>
>>> On Tue, 6 Sep 2022 19:54:02 -0700 (PDT), Jerry Friedman
>>> <jerry_friedman@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Tuesday, September 6, 2022 at 7:52:31 PM UTC-6, Quinn C wrote:
>>>>> Dr. Quinn (Medicine Woman), commenting on her daughter asking for
>>>>> earrings:
>>>>>
>>>>> I wasn't allowed a pair until my coming out.
>>>>>
>>>>> They considered that obscure (or prone to misunderstanding) enough in
>>>>> the 1990s that they worked an explanation into the dialogue.
>>>>
>>>>I imagine they were right, and of course they were playing the misunderstanding
>>>>for mild humor, since Dr. Quinn could have just said "since my debutante ball."
>>>>
>>>>> From memory:
>>>>>
>>>>> Man: And what exactly did you come out of?
>>>>> Dr. Quinn: I'm referring to my debutante ball.
>>>>> Woman: They call it "Sweet Sixteen parties" out here in the West.
>>>>
>>>>Out here in the West they call it quinceañeras.
>>>
>>> The quinceañera is celebrated when the girl turns 15, not 16. A very
>>> big deal here in Florida for Hispanic families.
>>>
>>> A debutante comes out at 16 to 21 depending on local custom. The
>>> "comes out" refers to the girl coming out to society.
>>>
>>> "Sweet Sixteen" parties are very common for girls in this area, but a
>>> "Sweet Sixteen" party is not necessarily as formal as a quinceañera.
>>
>> They are clearly parallel rites of passage. I couldn't name something
>> similar in German. Digging a little, the Vienna Opera Ball apparently
>> includes a "coming-out", with the young couples forming the "young
>> ladies and gents committee". "Debütantin" seems to be the only word we
>> have for a single (woman) member; I guess that's an import from English.
>
> ...with the French /y/ explicitly put back in; the second syllable in
> English is /ju/ or /jə/.

Complex in German as well: debut is "Debut". In this case, writing it
with ü would suggest that the final t be spoken, which it usually isn't.
In the case of the "Debütantin", it doesn't make a difference, so the
spelling was Germanized.

>> Usually, that word is used for musicians or actors having their first
>> big performance.

I suspect that German already had the word from French in the artistic
usage, but the coming out as a woman sense was added under the influence
of English. I don't know the whole spectrum of meanings in French, but
Wikipedia traces that meaning to English customs.

--
Quinn C
My pronouns are they/them
(or other gender-neutral ones)

* Peter T. Daniels:

> On Wednesday, September 7, 2022 at 11:09:09 AM UTC-4, Quinn C wrote:
>
>> "Debütantin" seems to be the only word we
>> have for a single (woman) member; I guess that's an import from English.
>> Usually, that word is used for musicians or actors having their first
>> big performance.
>
> Yes, one makes one's debut at Carnegie Hall if one is spectacularly
> well-connected and brilliantly talented.
>
> The English -ante is already feminine -- I wonder why it grew the -in.

Because male musicians and actors are a "Debütant" in the other context.

> The young man who is dragooned into escorting her is not making
> his debut. (PM having to do it at 7 is quite odd.)

I understood him to have been the equivalent of a flower girl at a
wedding (I assume that's a non-gendered role now, but "flower child"
raises different associations.)
>> Most of my peers went to dance school age 14-15; I guess that was a
>> remnant of that line of tradition. I refused. Once upon a time, what you
>> learned there may have helped boys and girls approach each other in a
>> respectful way, but from my perspective, such formalities were creating
>> an artificial distance that I had no use for. Neither had I use for
>> being embarrassed by my predictably clumsy performance.
>
> That last failing might have been cured by early dance lessons,
> which would have turned out to be useful preparation for self-
> presentation as a transwoman.

But I would have been forced to learn to "lead". Those dance lessons
also involved wearing a suit and tie, which is another part I loathed. I
understand better why now.

Nowadays, you can take queer dance lessons, where the roles are
interchangeable. Don't ask me how that works, exactly, especially with
something like tango.

--
Quinn C
My pronouns are they/them
(or other gender-neutral ones)

* Peter T. Daniels:

> On Tuesday, September 6, 2022 at 9:52:31 PM UTC-4, Quinn C wrote:
>
>> Dr. Quinn (Medicine Woman), commenting on her daughter asking for
>> earrings:
>>
>> I wasn't allowed a pair until my coming out.
>>
>> They considered that obscure (or prone to misunderstanding) enough in
>> the 1990s that they worked an explanation into the dialogue. From
>> memory:
>>
>> Man: And what exactly did you come out of?
>> Dr. Quinn: I'm referring to my debutante ball.
>> Woman: They call it "Sweet Sixteen parties" out here in the West.
>
> Nowadays they do it sooner and call it a quinceanera. [Google
> knew what I meant even though I did not know how to spell it.
> Does DDG do that for you?]

It does.
>> Does someone in this group remember this meaning in real life?
>
> Only the upper classes would, but it was well known from
> romantic novels and movies.
>
> I never saw an episode of that series, but I'd guess, Jane Seymour
> being who she is, that her back-story involved emigrating from
> Britain, where somehow she had a medical education, which she
> would have had to have been from an upper class in order to
> finagle, so she probably had an ordinary debut.
>
> Or maybe from Philadelphia, where they talked posh?

Dr. Quinn grew up in Boston's high society. As is obvious from the name,
the father's side was originally from Ireland. The mother's side
presumably from England; maybe the father married up (unsurprisingly, he
was a doctor.)

She went to medical school in Philadelphia. This is one of a number of
historical facts in the series that I looked into, and they usually
check out - Women's Medical College of Pennsylvania began preparatory
classes in 1848, becoming the second (I think) medical school in the US
that women could attend. But not until 1874 were the graduates fully
accepted as doctors by the establishment (in Pennsylvania).

> Incidentally, Jane Seymour was the septua- or octogenarian
> nympho in the retirement home in the second season of
> *B Positive* (CBS hasn't been promoting the return of the
> series, so maybe it ran its course and they couldn't come
> up with a convincing third environment to take its small
> group of regular characters to) and she was hilarious.

In real life, Seymour is just 71 now.

I do enjoy her subtle facial expressions in "Dr. Quinn". She often has
to hold back when people challenge all her values. Eventually, the
character usually explodes in a manner that I think wouldn't have been
as tolerated in real life.

--
Quinn C
My pronouns are they/them
(or other gender-neutral ones)

On Wed, 7 Sep 2022 22:42:52 -0400, Quinn C
<lispamateur@crommatograph.info> wrote:

>* Peter T. Daniels:
>
>> On Wednesday, September 7, 2022 at 11:09:09 AM UTC-4, Quinn C wrote:
>>
>>> "Debütantin" seems to be the only word we
>>> have for a single (woman) member; I guess that's an import from English.
>>> Usually, that word is used for musicians or actors having their first
>>> big performance.
>>
>> Yes, one makes one's debut at Carnegie Hall if one is spectacularly
>> well-connected and brilliantly talented.
>>
>> The English -ante is already feminine -- I wonder why it grew the -in.
>
>Because male musicians and actors are a "Debütant" in the other context.
>
>> The young man who is dragooned into escorting her is not making
>> his debut. (PM having to do it at 7 is quite odd.)
>
>I understood him to have been the equivalent of a flower girl at a
>wedding (I assume that's a non-gendered role now, but "flower child"
>raises different associations.)
>

The American deb is presented by her father or a close male family
releative or friend if the father is not in the picture.

The escort of the deb is normally a young man of equal social standing
and someone she is either dating or would be considered as an
appropriate date for her. The choice of PeterM, at age 7, was most
probably made because the deb was not dating anyone and didn't want to
be linked socially with any particular male.

A flower girl at a wedding precedes the bride, but neither escorts nor
presents her. If a boy is chosen for the role, I would think "flower
bearer" would be an appropriate term. The ring bearer, if there is
one, is traditionally a boy, but may be a girl.

We had a traditional wedding, and my wife - as the youngest of 8 - had
a multitude of young male and female relatives to choose from, but
chose not to have either a flower girl or ring bearer. That would
have suggested favoritism and created family dissention.

>>> Most of my peers went to dance school age 14-15; I guess that was a
>>> remnant of that line of tradition. I refused. Once upon a time, what you
>>> learned there may have helped boys and girls approach each other in a
>>> respectful way, but from my perspective, such formalities were creating
>>> an artificial distance that I had no use for. Neither had I use for
>>> being embarrassed by my predictably clumsy performance.
>>
>> That last failing might have been cured by early dance lessons,
>> which would have turned out to be useful preparation for self-
>> presentation as a transwoman.
>
>But I would have been forced to learn to "lead". Those dance lessons
>also involved wearing a suit and tie, which is another part I loathed. I
>understand better why now.
>
That the male leads may be what is supposed be the case, but at the
age at which I took dancing lessons (13), if the girl didn't lead we'd
just stand there and shuffle.
--

Tony Cooper - Orlando Florida

I read and post to this group as a form of entertainment.

On 08/09/22 14:48, Tony Cooper wrote:
> On Wed, 7 Sep 2022 22:42:52 -0400, Quinn C
> <lispamateur@crommatograph.info> wrote:
>
>> * Peter T. Daniels:
>>
>>> On Wednesday, September 7, 2022 at 11:09:09 AM UTC-4, Quinn C
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> "Debütantin" seems to be the only word we have for a single
>>>> (woman) member; I guess that's an import from English.
>>>> Usually, that word is used for musicians or actors having their
>>>> first big performance.
>>>
>>> Yes, one makes one's debut at Carnegie Hall if one is
>>> spectacularly well-connected and brilliantly talented.
>>>
>>> The English -ante is already feminine -- I wonder why it grew
>>> the -in.
>>
>> Because male musicians and actors are a "Debütant" in the other
>> context.
>>
>>> The young man who is dragooned into escorting her is not making
>>> his debut. (PM having to do it at 7 is quite odd.)
>>
>> I understood him to have been the equivalent of a flower girl at a
>> wedding (I assume that's a non-gendered role now, but "flower
>> child" raises different associations.)

Yes, that's roughly correct.

> The American deb is presented by her father or a close male family
> releative or friend if the father is not in the picture.
>
> The escort of the deb is normally a young man of equal social
> standing and someone she is either dating or would be considered as
> an appropriate date for her. The choice of PeterM, at age 7, was
> most probably made because the deb was not dating anyone and didn't
> want to be linked socially with any particular male.

No, that part's not right. My dance partner was not a debutante, being
only 7 years old herself. We were a ceremonial frill.

Before the debs came out dancing, they had to line up off-stage with
their dance partners. (I don't think fathers were involved, but they
might have been.) My partner and I were at the head of the line. Once
the band started playing, she and I had to come out dancing, and (IIRC)
waltz for one circuit around the dance floor, with nobody else on the
dance floor at that stage. That is, we opened the formalities. After
we'd done that, the debs and their partners joined the dance, probably
one pair at a time.

There would have been other dances after that, but by then my ceremonial
role was over.

There used to be a framed photo of my partner and me in our house, but I
think my father's second wife burnt it. She didn't want any mementos
left over from Dad's first marriage, so she destroyed all the childhood
photos, school reports, etc. She even banned his dog from the house.

I had better make it clear that our debutantes weren't "entering
society" in the traditional sense. Our small town had no high society,
and no upper class. We only had lower, and even lower. The debutantes'
ball was just an annual excuse for adolescent girls to dress up and go
out dancing.

--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org

On 08/09/2022 6:32 am, Peter Moylan wrote:
> I had better make it clear that our debutantes weren't
> "entering society" in the traditional sense. Our small town
> had no high society, and no upper class. We only had lower,
> and even lower. The debutantes' ball was just an annual excuse
> for adolescent girls to dress up and go out dancing.

Limbo, presumably.

--
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line 4 vacant - apply within

On 2022-09-07 18:41:59 +0000, Kerr-Mudd, John said:

> On Wed, 07 Sep 2022 12:19:23 -0400
> Tony Cooper <tonycooper214@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> [formal dance class]
>
>> that I was not the partner she would have chosen.
>>
> My sympathies
> []
>> My aunt did make good on the bicycle offer, though.
>>
> Well it all turned out all right in the end.

Yes. I think Tony did pretty well out of it at the end.

--
Athel -- French and British, living mainly in England until 1987.

Le 07/09/2022 à 02:52, Quinn C a écrit :
>
> Dr. Quinn (Medicine Woman), commenting on her daughter asking for
> earrings:
>
> I wasn't allowed a pair until my coming out.
>
> They considered that obscure (or prone to misunderstanding) enough in
> the 1990s that they worked an explanation into the dialogue. From
> memory:
>
> Man: And what exactly did you come out of?
> Dr. Quinn: I'm referring to my debutante ball.
> Woman: They call it "Sweet Sixteen parties" out here in the West. [...]

That makes 'Man' look dim or ill-read or something. I hope that fitted
his character.