On 19/08/22 20:45, J. J. Lodder wrote:

> But inflation is gradually killing the usage, since it is no longer
> a great amount of money, (it won't buy you a house, for example)
>
> Revived though in Dutch, but not in Belgian, in the 'jubelton'. [1]
>
> [1] A fiscal measure to be abolished soon: Parents are allowed to
> give their children 100 000 euros tax free, for the purpose of
> buying a house. Heavily criticised: it mainly serves to drive up
> housing prices, and it discriminates against those not having
> moneyed parents.

The cost of housing, including rentals, has been a major political issue
here for some time. It is obvious to every man and his dog that house
prices are going up faster than wages, making housing unaffordable.

Various remedies have been tried. One, introduced by the previous
government, was to encourage sub-prime mortgages by making it possible
to get a housing loan with a small deposit. With rising interest rates,
it was always clear that this would result in low-income people buying a
house and then losing the house and their savings. So why would anyone
promote it? Because it drives up prices.

Most other proposed measures have the same problem. But of course they
would. If you look at who is doing the proposals, they have just two goals:
(a) to drive up the profits of property developers;
(b) to drive up the investment gains of those who
buy houses as investments.

Point (b) was especially important to the previous government, because
most of their members of parliament were owners of two or more
investment properties. That meant that most laws that affected housing
were voted in by people who failed to declare a conflict of interest.

--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org

On Fri, 19 Aug 2022 23:23:17 +1000, Peter Moylan
<peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:

>On 19/08/22 20:45, J. J. Lodder wrote:
>> henh...@gmail.com <henhanna@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> FYI: On usenet you should not post other people's text as if it were
>> your own,
>
>Hen Hanna has always had trouble following normal Usenet standards, and
>suggestions from other people have had no effect. I suspect some sort of
>intellectual disability that we'll just have to live with.

*Have to* live with? Certainly not. It's easy enough to killfile him.

I haven't killfiled him yet, but I'm on the verge of doing so.

Op 19/08/2022 om 12:45 schreef J. J. Lodder:
> wugi <wugi@scrlt.com> wrote:
>
> [-]
>> I just read recently, if not here it'd be in Quora, that a one yen coin
>> weighs exactly 1g and has dito radius 1cm.
>> So you can use handfuls of them, if not for paying, for weighing and
>> measuring small things.
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1_yen_coin
>>
>> Maybe other coins are also fit for such unit usage?
>
> The original silver Dutch guilder, aka Florin, weighted nearly 10 grams.
> So 100 000 of them, in a barrel, weighted one ton.
> The usage of 'een ton' for 100 000 guilders survives in Dutch.
> (nowadays also as an 'euroton')
>

Thanks for explaining this "1 ton" usage in the Nls.

--
guido wugi

On Thursday, August 18, 2022 at 5:25:37 PM UTC-4, Tony Cooper wrote:
> On Thu, 18 Aug 2022 13:57:28 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
> <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
> >On Thursday, August 18, 2022 at 2:02:29 PM UTC-4, Tony Cooper wrote:

> >> The only thing I usually trim from your posts is my sig line and what
> >> you've added to it.
> >Oh, don't lie. Or else flaunt your failures of memory.
> >> --
> >> Tony Cooper - Orlando Florida
> >> I read and post to this group as a form of entertainment.
> >And lying.
>
> You can, of course, post links to examples of this?
>
> No?
>
> I thought not.

Well, I'm certainly not going to trawl through the archives to discover
the message where you told me there was a Chock Full o' Nuts in
Hoboken (convenient to the rail terminal). or the one where you told
me some business was on some street in Jersey City that didn't even
exist, or that there are active landfills within Jersey City, ...

I do appreciate your finding the one surviving Arby's at an accessible
distance.
> --
> Tony Cooper - Orlando Florida
> I read and post to this group as a form of entertainment.

And convenient amnesia.

On Friday, August 19, 2022 at 10:16:07 AM UTC-4, Ken Blake wrote:
> On Fri, 19 Aug 2022 23:23:17 +1000, Peter Moylan
> <pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
> >On 19/08/22 20:45, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> >> henh...@gmail.com <henh...@gmail.com> wrote:

[something that disturbed JJ]
> >> FYI: On usenet you should not post other people's text as if it were
> >> your own,
> >Hen Hanna has always had trouble following normal Usenet standards, and
> >suggestions from other people have had no effect. I suspect some sort of
> >intellectual disability that we'll just have to live with.
>
> *Have to* live with? Certainly not. It's easy enough to killfile him.
>
> I haven't killfiled him yet, but I'm on the verge of doing so.

Aggressive old S.O.B., isn't he. I bet the neighborhood kids don't _dare_ get
on his lawn. And he probably does, despite the Arizona climate, have a lawn.

One can imagine who he voted for in the republican primary last week.

On Fri, 19 Aug 2022 07:41:17 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
<grammatim@verizon.net> wrote:

>On Thursday, August 18, 2022 at 5:25:37 PM UTC-4, Tony Cooper wrote:
>> On Thu, 18 Aug 2022 13:57:28 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
>> <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
>> >On Thursday, August 18, 2022 at 2:02:29 PM UTC-4, Tony Cooper wrote:
>
>> >> The only thing I usually trim from your posts is my sig line and what
>> >> you've added to it.
>> >Oh, don't lie. Or else flaunt your failures of memory.
>> >> --
>> >> Tony Cooper - Orlando Florida
>> >> I read and post to this group as a form of entertainment.
>> >And lying.
>>
>> You can, of course, post links to examples of this?
>>
>> No?
>>
>> I thought not.
>
>Well, I'm certainly not going to trawl through the archives to discover
>the message where you told me there was a Chock Full o' Nuts in
>Hoboken (convenient to the rail terminal). or the one where you told
>me some business was on some street in Jersey City that didn't even
>exist, or that there are active landfills within Jersey City, ...

What have those examples to do with unfairly trimming your posts?

An exchange with you is like asking what time it is and getting
"Yellow" as a response.

>
>I do appreciate your finding the one surviving Arby's at an accessible
>distance.
>> --
>> Tony Cooper - Orlando Florida
>> I read and post to this group as a form of entertainment.
>
>And convenient amnesia.

--

Tony Cooper - Orlando Florida

I read and post to this group as a form of entertainment.

On Friday, August 19, 2022 at 10:54:52 AM UTC-4, Tony Cooper wrote:
> On Fri, 19 Aug 2022 07:41:17 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
> <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
> >On Thursday, August 18, 2022 at 5:25:37 PM UTC-4, Tony Cooper wrote:
> >> On Thu, 18 Aug 2022 13:57:28 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
> >> <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
> >> >On Thursday, August 18, 2022 at 2:02:29 PM UTC-4, Tony Cooper wrote:

> >> >> --
> >> >> Tony Cooper - Orlando Florida
> >> >> I read and post to this group as a form of entertainment.
> >> >And lying.
> >> You can, of course, post links to examples of this?
> >> No?
> >> I thought not.
> >Well, I'm certainly not going to trawl through the archives to discover
> >the message where you told me there was a Chock Full o' Nuts in
> >Hoboken (convenient to the rail terminal). or the one where you told
> >me some business was on some street in Jersey City that didn't even
> >exist, or that there are active landfills within Jersey City, ...
>
> What have those examples to do with unfairly trimming your posts?

You asked for "links" to your examples of lies, moron.

You love to do "research," so you should probably be able to find
the links to the messages in which you posted those lies.

> An exchange with you is like asking what time it is and getting
> "Yellow" as a response.
> >
> >I do appreciate your finding the one surviving Arby's at an accessible
> >distance.
> >> --
> >> Tony Cooper - Orlando Florida
> >> I read and post to this group as a form of entertainment.
> >And convenient amnesia.
> --
> Tony Cooper - Orlando Florida
> I read and post to this group as a form of entertainment.

And utter imbecility.

On Fri, 19 Aug 2022 23:23:17 +1000
Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:

> On 19/08/22 20:45, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> > henh...@gmail.com <henhanna@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > FYI: On usenet you should not post other people's text as if it were
> > your own,
>
> Hen Hanna has always had trouble following normal Usenet standards, and
> suggestions from other people have had no effect. I suspect some sort of
> intellectual disability that we'll just have to live with.
>
HH also poses known maths problems on alt.rec.puzzles. One of these was a
Martin Gardner problem (or at least published in his Mathematical Games
section of Scientific American) which used the Yen coin as the basis for
the puzzle.

--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.

* Ken Blake:

> On Fri, 19 Aug 2022 23:23:17 +1000, Peter Moylan
> <peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
>
>>On 19/08/22 20:45, J. J. Lodder wrote:
>>> henh...@gmail.com <henhanna@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> FYI: On usenet you should not post other people's text as if it were
>>> your own,
>>
>>Hen Hanna has always had trouble following normal Usenet standards, and
>>suggestions from other people have had no effect. I suspect some sort of
>>intellectual disability that we'll just have to live with.
>
> *Have to* live with? Certainly not. It's easy enough to killfile him.
>
> I haven't killfiled him yet, but I'm on the verge of doing so.

I've never un-killfiled him; his posting setup triggers one of my broad
filters, which catches most spam.

--
The lack of any sense of play between them worried Miles. You
had to have a keen sense of humor to do sex and stay sane.
-- L. McMaster Bujold, Memory

On Fri, 19 Aug 2022 08:25:32 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
<grammatim@verizon.net> wrote:

>On Friday, August 19, 2022 at 10:54:52 AM UTC-4, Tony Cooper wrote:
>> On Fri, 19 Aug 2022 07:41:17 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
>> <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
>> >On Thursday, August 18, 2022 at 5:25:37 PM UTC-4, Tony Cooper wrote:
>> >> On Thu, 18 Aug 2022 13:57:28 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
>> >> <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
>> >> >On Thursday, August 18, 2022 at 2:02:29 PM UTC-4, Tony Cooper wrote:
>
>> >> >> --
>> >> >> Tony Cooper - Orlando Florida
>> >> >> I read and post to this group as a form of entertainment.
>> >> >And lying.
>> >> You can, of course, post links to examples of this?
>> >> No?
>> >> I thought not.
>> >Well, I'm certainly not going to trawl through the archives to discover
>> >the message where you told me there was a Chock Full o' Nuts in
>> >Hoboken (convenient to the rail terminal). or the one where you told
>> >me some business was on some street in Jersey City that didn't even
>> >exist, or that there are active landfills within Jersey City, ...
>>
>> What have those examples to do with unfairly trimming your posts?
>
>You asked for "links" to your examples of lies, moron.

As usual, you are the one who trims to mislead. The context, that you
removed, was (TC) "The only thing I usually trim from your posts is
my sig line and what you've added to it" followed by (PTD) "Oh, don't
lie. Or else flaunt your failures of memory."

>
>You love to do "research," so you should probably be able to find
>the links to the messages in which you posted those lies.
>
>> An exchange with you is like asking what time it is and getting
>> "Yellow" as a response.
>> >
>> >I do appreciate your finding the one surviving Arby's at an accessible
>> >distance.
>> >> --
>> >> Tony Cooper - Orlando Florida
>> >> I read and post to this group as a form of entertainment.
>> >And convenient amnesia.
>> --
>> Tony Cooper - Orlando Florida
>> I read and post to this group as a form of entertainment.
>
>And utter imbecility.
--

Tony Cooper - Orlando Florida

I read and post to this group as a form of entertainment.

On Fri, 19 Aug 2022 08:25:32 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
<grammatim@verizon.net> wrote:

>> >Well, I'm certainly not going to trawl through the archives to discover
>> >the message where you told me there was a Chock Full o' Nuts in
>> >Hoboken (convenient to the rail terminal). or the one where you told
>> >me some business was on some street in Jersey City that didn't even
>> >exist, or that there are active landfills within Jersey City, ...
>>
>> What have those examples to do with unfairly trimming your posts?
>
>You asked for "links" to your examples of lies, moron.

You have never been able to grasp the meaning of the word "lie".

A "lie" is a delibertate falsehood. Something said that is false is
not a lie if the person saying it believes it to be true.

I would not consider your statement about the Museum of Science and
Industry to be an "imitation" of the original building to be a lie.
It's false, but a statement based on ignorance, not intended as
deliberate deceit. Likewise your false statement about what was
changed when Illinois revised their Constitution. Again, just
ignorance.

--

Tony Cooper - Orlando Florida

I read and post to this group as a form of entertainment.

Fri, 19 Aug 2022 16:16:18 +0200: wugi <wugi@scrlt.com> scribeva:

>Op 19/08/2022 om 12:45 schreef J. J. Lodder:
>> wugi <wugi@scrlt.com> wrote:
>>
>> [-]
>>> I just read recently, if not here it'd be in Quora, that a one yen coin
>>> weighs exactly 1g and has dito radius 1cm.
>>> So you can use handfuls of them, if not for paying, for weighing and
>>> measuring small things.
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1_yen_coin
>>>
>>> Maybe other coins are also fit for such unit usage?
>>
>> The original silver Dutch guilder, aka Florin, weighted nearly 10 grams.
>> So 100 000 of them, in a barrel, weighted one ton.
>> The usage of 'een ton' for 100 000 guilders survives in Dutch.
>> (nowadays also as an 'euroton')
>>
>
>Thanks for explaining this "1 ton" usage in the Nls.

First time I see this explanation. So he probably made it up on the
spot.
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com

Op 19/08/2022 om 20:58 schreef Ruud Harmsen:
> Fri, 19 Aug 2022 16:16:18 +0200: wugi <wugi@scrlt.com> scribeva:
>
>> Op 19/08/2022 om 12:45 schreef J. J. Lodder:
>>> wugi <wugi@scrlt.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> [-]
>>>> I just read recently, if not here it'd be in Quora, that a one yen coin
>>>> weighs exactly 1g and has dito radius 1cm.
>>>> So you can use handfuls of them, if not for paying, for weighing and
>>>> measuring small things.
>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1_yen_coin
>>>>
>>>> Maybe other coins are also fit for such unit usage?
>>>
>>> The original silver Dutch guilder, aka Florin, weighted nearly 10 grams.
>>> So 100 000 of them, in a barrel, weighted one ton.
>>> The usage of 'een ton' for 100 000 guilders survives in Dutch.
>>> (nowadays also as an 'euroton')
>>>
>>
>> Thanks for explaining this "1 ton" usage in the Nls.
>
> First time I see this explanation. So he probably made it up on the
> spot.

It smelt a bit fishy but is altogether not entirely made up:
https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ton_(geld)

--
guido wugi

wugi <wugi@scrlt.com> wrote:

> Op 19/08/2022 om 20:58 schreef Ruud Harmsen:
> > Fri, 19 Aug 2022 16:16:18 +0200: wugi <wugi@scrlt.com> scribeva:
> >
> >> Op 19/08/2022 om 12:45 schreef J. J. Lodder:
> >>> wugi <wugi@scrlt.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> [-]
> >>>> I just read recently, if not here it'd be in Quora, that a one yen coin
> >>>> weighs exactly 1g and has dito radius 1cm.
> >>>> So you can use handfuls of them, if not for paying, for weighing and
> >>>> measuring small things.
> >>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1_yen_coin
> >>>>
> >>>> Maybe other coins are also fit for such unit usage?
> >>>
> >>> The original silver Dutch guilder, aka Florin, weighted nearly 10 grams.
> >>> So 100 000 of them, in a barrel, weighted one ton.
> >>> The usage of 'een ton' for 100 000 guilders survives in Dutch.
> >>> (nowadays also as an 'euroton')
> >>>
> >>
> >> Thanks for explaining this "1 ton" usage in the Nls.
> >
> > First time I see this explanation. So he probably made it up on the
> > spot.
>
> It smelt a bit fishy but is altogether not entirely made up:
> <https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ton_(geld)>

Yes. Not at all made up.
Before WWII the Dutch silver guilder coin really weighted 10 gram.

Long before that the Dutch East India Company
exported large amounts of silver to Asia.
The silver was kept in a 'ton' (E. a small barrel, a keg)
in the captain quarters, where it could be well guarded.

Smaller 'tons' of course, this was pre-metric.
(and 1000 kg 'tons' would have been hard to handle)
The VOC usually paid in silver coin for the trade items
they bought in India, China, and Japan.

Jan

On 17/08/2022 14:49, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> On 2022-08-17 12:33:43 +0000, Peter Moylan said:
>
>> On 17/08/22 22:16, henh...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>> True:    1 yen coin floats on water.
>>>
>>> if you melt a 1 yen coin    (which is illegal) the aluminum  (that
>>> you get)   is   worth  about  0.3 yen.
>>
>> To the best of my knowledge, I've only ever once mistreated a coin.
>
> When I were a lad a popular thing to do was to put a halfpeny on the
> railway line and let a train squash it flat. (Strictly illegal, of
> course, and I think I was party to such wickedness only once.)
>

This confession to wickedness is up there with Teresa May's "I ran
through a field of wheat once" self-confessed naughtyness. C'mon Athel,
you can do better than that!

On Friday, August 19, 2022 at 2:18:03 PM UTC-6, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> wugi <wu...@scrlt.com> wrote:
>
> > Op 19/08/2022 om 20:58 schreef Ruud Harmsen:
> > > Fri, 19 Aug 2022 16:16:18 +0200: wugi <wu...@scrlt.com> scribeva:
> > >
> > >> Op 19/08/2022 om 12:45 schreef J. J. Lodder:
> > >>> wugi <wu...@scrlt.com> wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>> [-]
> > >>>> I just read recently, if not here it'd be in Quora, that a one yen coin
> > >>>> weighs exactly 1g and has dito radius 1cm.
> > >>>> So you can use handfuls of them, if not for paying, for weighing and
> > >>>> measuring small things.
> > >>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1_yen_coin
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Maybe other coins are also fit for such unit usage?
> > >>>
> > >>> The original silver Dutch guilder, aka Florin, weighted nearly 10 grams.
> > >>> So 100 000 of them, in a barrel, weighted one ton.
> > >>> The usage of 'een ton' for 100 000 guilders survives in Dutch.
> > >>> (nowadays also as an 'euroton')
> > >>>
> > >>
> > >> Thanks for explaining this "1 ton" usage in the Nls.
> > >
> > > First time I see this explanation. So he probably made it up on the
> > > spot.
> >
> > It smelt a bit fishy but is altogether not entirely made up:
> > <https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ton_(geld)>

> Yes. Not at all made up.
> Before WWII the Dutch silver guilder coin really weighted 10 gram.
....

Third time's the charm. You want "weighed". You weigh something to
find out how much it weighs. To weight something is to attach one or
more weights to it.

--
Jerry Friedman

On Friday, August 19, 2022 at 12:58:29 PM UTC-6, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> Fri, 19 Aug 2022 16:16:18 +0200: wugi <wu...@scrlt.com> scribeva:
> >Op 19/08/2022 om 12:45 schreef J. J. Lodder:
....

> >> The original silver Dutch guilder, aka Florin, weighted nearly 10 grams.
> >> So 100 000 of them, in a barrel, weighted one ton.
> >> The usage of 'een ton' for 100 000 guilders survives in Dutch.
> >> (nowadays also as an 'euroton')
> >>
> >
> >Thanks for explaining this "1 ton" usage in the Nls.

> First time I see this explanation.
....

That should be "First time I've seen..."

--
Jerry Friedman

Fri, 19 Aug 2022 21:45:24 +0200: wugi <wugi@scrlt.com> scribeva:

>Op 19/08/2022 om 20:58 schreef Ruud Harmsen:
>> Fri, 19 Aug 2022 16:16:18 +0200: wugi <wugi@scrlt.com> scribeva:
>>
>>> Op 19/08/2022 om 12:45 schreef J. J. Lodder:
>>>> wugi <wugi@scrlt.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> [-]
>>>>> I just read recently, if not here it'd be in Quora, that a one yen coin
>>>>> weighs exactly 1g and has dito radius 1cm.
>>>>> So you can use handfuls of them, if not for paying, for weighing and
>>>>> measuring small things.
>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1_yen_coin
>>>>>
>>>>> Maybe other coins are also fit for such unit usage?
>>>>
>>>> The original silver Dutch guilder, aka Florin, weighted nearly 10 grams.
>>>> So 100 000 of them, in a barrel, weighted one ton.
>>>> The usage of 'een ton' for 100 000 guilders survives in Dutch.
>>>> (nowadays also as an 'euroton')
>>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks for explaining this "1 ton" usage in the Nls.
>>
>> First time I see this explanation. So he probably made it up on the
>> spot.
>
>It smelt a bit fishy but is altogether not entirely made up:
>https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ton_(geld)

OK, if Wikipedia says so too, it must be true.
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com

Fri, 19 Aug 2022 14:16:43 -0700 (PDT): Jerry Friedman
<jerry_friedman@yahoo.com> scribeva:

>On Friday, August 19, 2022 at 12:58:29 PM UTC-6, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>> Fri, 19 Aug 2022 16:16:18 +0200: wugi <wu...@scrlt.com> scribeva:
>> >Op 19/08/2022 om 12:45 schreef J. J. Lodder:
>...
>
>> >> The original silver Dutch guilder, aka Florin, weighted nearly 10 grams.
>> >> So 100 000 of them, in a barrel, weighted one ton.
>> >> The usage of 'een ton' for 100 000 guilders survives in Dutch.
>> >> (nowadays also as an 'euroton')
>> >>
>> >
>> >Thanks for explaining this "1 ton" usage in the Nls.
>
>> First time I see this explanation.
>...
>
>That should be "First time I've seen..."

Too difficult. Can't learn that. In Dutch, only
Eerste keer dat ik deze verklaring zie.
is possible, while
Eerste keer dat ik deze verklaring heb gezien.
would be grossly ungrammatical.

But
Deze verklaring heb ik nooit eerder gezien.
(This explanation have I never before seen.)
is possible and correct.

It seems strange to me that in English too, this would even be
possible. I learned that with a time clause that defines a point in
time, not a period, only the present and simple past are possible,
never the perfect. (In Dutch it is, however: "Gisteren heb ik daar
gegeten", *"Yesterday I have eaten there", is correct).

"First time", short for "This is the first time that" to me seems
similar to a pointed time clause.

Am I wrong? Why? The usage of English.
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com

On Saturday, August 20, 2022 at 3:35:06 AM UTC-4, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> Fri, 19 Aug 2022 14:16:43 -0700 (PDT): Jerry Friedman
> <jerry_f...@yahoo.com> scribeva:
> >On Friday, August 19, 2022 at 12:58:29 PM UTC-6, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> >> Fri, 19 Aug 2022 16:16:18 +0200: wugi <wu...@scrlt.com> scribeva:
> >> >Op 19/08/2022 om 12:45 schreef J. J. Lodder:

> >> >> The original silver Dutch guilder, aka Florin, weighted nearly 10 grams.
> >> >> So 100 000 of them, in a barrel, weighted one ton.
> >> >> The usage of 'een ton' for 100 000 guilders survives in Dutch.
> >> >> (nowadays also as an 'euroton')
> >> >Thanks for explaining this "1 ton" usage in the Nls.
> >> First time I see this explanation.
> >That should be "First time I've seen..."
>
> Too difficult. Can't learn that. In Dutch, only
> Eerste keer dat ik deze verklaring zie.
> is possible, while
> Eerste keer dat ik deze verklaring heb gezien.
> would be grossly ungrammatical.
>
> But
> Deze verklaring heb ik nooit eerder gezien.
> (This explanation have I never before seen.)
> is possible and correct.
>
> It seems strange to me that in English too, this would even be
> possible. I learned that with a time clause that defines a point in
> time, not a period, only the present and simple past are possible,
> never the perfect. (In Dutch it is, however: "Gisteren heb ik daar
> gegeten", *"Yesterday I have eaten there", is correct).

English ain't German -- "This explanation I have never before seen."

> "First time", short for "This is the first time that" to me seems
> similar to a pointed time clause.

You can't use it in formal prose.

> Am I wrong? Why? The usage of English.

Sat, 20 Aug 2022 06:06:48 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
<grammatim@verizon.net> scribeva:

>On Saturday, August 20, 2022 at 3:35:06 AM UTC-4, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>> Fri, 19 Aug 2022 14:16:43 -0700 (PDT): Jerry Friedman
>> <jerry_f...@yahoo.com> scribeva:
>> >On Friday, August 19, 2022 at 12:58:29 PM UTC-6, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>> >> Fri, 19 Aug 2022 16:16:18 +0200: wugi <wu...@scrlt.com> scribeva:
>> >> >Op 19/08/2022 om 12:45 schreef J. J. Lodder:
>
>> >> >> The original silver Dutch guilder, aka Florin, weighted nearly 10 grams.
>> >> >> So 100 000 of them, in a barrel, weighted one ton.
>> >> >> The usage of 'een ton' for 100 000 guilders survives in Dutch.
>> >> >> (nowadays also as an 'euroton')
>> >> >Thanks for explaining this "1 ton" usage in the Nls.
>> >> First time I see this explanation.
>> >That should be "First time I've seen..."
>>
>> Too difficult. Can't learn that. In Dutch, only
>> Eerste keer dat ik deze verklaring zie.
>> is possible, while
>> Eerste keer dat ik deze verklaring heb gezien.
>> would be grossly ungrammatical.
>>
>> But
>> Deze verklaring heb ik nooit eerder gezien.
>> (This explanation have I never before seen.)
>> is possible and correct.
>>
>> It seems strange to me that in English too, this would even be
>> possible. I learned that with a time clause that defines a point in
>> time, not a period, only the present and simple past are possible,
>> never the perfect. (In Dutch it is, however: "Gisteren heb ik daar
>> gegeten", *"Yesterday I have eaten there", is correct).
>
>English ain't German -- "This explanation I have never before seen."

Stimmt:
Diese Erklärung (oder Erläuterung) hab' ich noch nie gesehen. Hatte
ich noch nie gesehen. Waarscheinlich auch möglich:
Erste Mal (oder: Das erste Mal) dass ich das sehe / gesehen habe.

But in Dutch, that sounds weird and incorrect.

>> "First time", short for "This is the first time that" to me seems
>> similar to a pointed time clause.
>
>You can't use it in formal prose.
>
>> Am I wrong? Why? The usage of English.

--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com

On Saturday, August 20, 2022 at 1:35:06 AM UTC-6, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> Fri, 19 Aug 2022 14:16:43 -0700 (PDT): Jerry Friedman
> <jerry_f...@yahoo.com> scribeva:
> >On Friday, August 19, 2022 at 12:58:29 PM UTC-6, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> >> Fri, 19 Aug 2022 16:16:18 +0200: wugi <wu...@scrlt.com> scribeva:
> >> >Op 19/08/2022 om 12:45 schreef J. J. Lodder:
> >...
> >
> >> >> The original silver Dutch guilder, aka Florin, weighted nearly 10 grams.
> >> >> So 100 000 of them, in a barrel, weighted one ton.
> >> >> The usage of 'een ton' for 100 000 guilders survives in Dutch.
> >> >> (nowadays also as an 'euroton')
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >Thanks for explaining this "1 ton" usage in the Nls.
> >
> >> First time I see this explanation.
> >...
> >
> >That should be "First time I've seen..."
> Too difficult. Can't learn that.

Sorry.

English seems to have a lot of tense-aspect-thingamabobs for verbs, and
they don'tmatch up well with a lot of other languages.

> In Dutch, only
> Eerste keer dat ik deze verklaring zie.
> is possible, while
> Eerste keer dat ik deze verklaring heb gezien.
> would be grossly ungrammatical.
>
> But
> Deze verklaring heb ik nooit eerder gezien.
> (This explanation have I never before seen.)
> is possible and correct.
>
> It seems strange to me that in English too, this would even be
> possible. I learned that with a time clause that defines a point in
> time, not a period, only the present and simple past are possible,
> never the perfect. (In Dutch it is, however: "Gisteren heb ik daar
> gegeten", *"Yesterday I have eaten there", is correct).
>
> "First time", short for "This is the first time that" to me seems
> similar to a pointed time clause.

Well, the main clause defines a point in time, but the clause that
"seen" is in doesn't. I don't know whether that's a good explanation,
though.

> Am I wrong? Why? The usage of English.

Correct.

--
Jerry Friedman

On 21/08/22 00:58, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> On Saturday, August 20, 2022 at 1:35:06 AM UTC-6, Ruud Harmsen
> wrote:
>> Fri, 19 Aug 2022 14:16:43 -0700 (PDT): Jerry Friedman
>> <jerry_f...@yahoo.com> scribeva:
>>> On Friday, August 19, 2022 at 12:58:29 PM UTC-6, Ruud Harmsen
>>> wrote:
>>>> Fri, 19 Aug 2022 16:16:18 +0200: wugi <wu...@scrlt.com>
>>>> scribeva:
>>>>> Op 19/08/2022 om 12:45 schreef J. J. Lodder:
>>> ...
>>>
>>>>>> The original silver Dutch guilder, aka Florin, weighted
>>>>>> nearly 10 grams. So 100 000 of them, in a barrel, weighted
>>>>>> one ton. The usage of 'een ton' for 100 000 guilders
>>>>>> survives in Dutch. (nowadays also as an 'euroton')
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks for explaining this "1 ton" usage in the Nls.
>>>
>>>> First time I see this explanation.
>>> ...
>>>
>>> That should be "First time I've seen..."
>> Too difficult. Can't learn that.
>
> Sorry.
>
> English seems to have a lot of tense-aspect-thingamabobs for verbs,
> and they don'tmatch up well with a lot of other languages.
>
>> In Dutch, only Eerste keer dat ik deze verklaring zie. is possible,
>> while Eerste keer dat ik deze verklaring heb gezien. would be
>> grossly ungrammatical.
>>
>> But Deze verklaring heb ik nooit eerder gezien. (This explanation
>> have I never before seen.) is possible and correct.
>>
>> It seems strange to me that in English too, this would even be
>> possible. I learned that with a time clause that defines a point
>> in time, not a period, only the present and simple past are
>> possible, never the perfect. (In Dutch it is, however: "Gisteren
>> heb ik daar gegeten", *"Yesterday I have eaten there", is
>> correct).
>>
>> "First time", short for "This is the first time that" to me seems
>> similar to a pointed time clause.
>
> Well, the main clause defines a point in time, but the clause that
> "seen" is in doesn't. I don't know whether that's a good
> explanation, though.
>
>> Am I wrong? Why? The usage of English.
>
> Correct.

Dutch and English are closely related languages, yet you must use a
perfect tense in one language where it would be wrong in the other. And
vice versa.

Conclusion: verb tenses don't have the fixed meanings we like to think
they have. It's all a matter of fashion.

--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org

* Peter Moylan:

> On 21/08/22 00:58, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>> On Saturday, August 20, 2022 at 1:35:06 AM UTC-6, Ruud Harmsen
>> wrote:
>>> Fri, 19 Aug 2022 14:16:43 -0700 (PDT): Jerry Friedman
>>> <jerry_f...@yahoo.com> scribeva:
>>>> On Friday, August 19, 2022 at 12:58:29 PM UTC-6, Ruud Harmsen
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> Fri, 19 Aug 2022 16:16:18 +0200: wugi <wu...@scrlt.com>
>>>>> scribeva:
>>>>>> Op 19/08/2022 om 12:45 schreef J. J. Lodder:
>>>> ...
>>>>
>>>>>>> The original silver Dutch guilder, aka Florin, weighted
>>>>>>> nearly 10 grams. So 100 000 of them, in a barrel, weighted
>>>>>>> one ton. The usage of 'een ton' for 100 000 guilders
>>>>>>> survives in Dutch. (nowadays also as an 'euroton')
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks for explaining this "1 ton" usage in the Nls.
>>>>
>>>>> First time I see this explanation.
>>>> ...
>>>>
>>>> That should be "First time I've seen..."
>>> Too difficult. Can't learn that.
>>
>> Sorry.
>>
>> English seems to have a lot of tense-aspect-thingamabobs for verbs,
>> and they don'tmatch up well with a lot of other languages.
>>
>>> In Dutch, only Eerste keer dat ik deze verklaring zie. is possible,
>>> while Eerste keer dat ik deze verklaring heb gezien. would be
>>> grossly ungrammatical.
>>>
>>> But Deze verklaring heb ik nooit eerder gezien. (This explanation
>>> have I never before seen.) is possible and correct.
>>>
>>> It seems strange to me that in English too, this would even be
>>> possible. I learned that with a time clause that defines a point
>>> in time, not a period, only the present and simple past are
>>> possible, never the perfect. (In Dutch it is, however: "Gisteren
>>> heb ik daar gegeten", *"Yesterday I have eaten there", is
>>> correct).
>>>
>>> "First time", short for "This is the first time that" to me seems
>>> similar to a pointed time clause.
>>
>> Well, the main clause defines a point in time, but the clause that
>> "seen" is in doesn't. I don't know whether that's a good
>> explanation, though.
>>
>>> Am I wrong? Why? The usage of English.
>>
>> Correct.
>
> Dutch and English are closely related languages, yet you must use a
> perfect tense in one language where it would be wrong in the other. And
> vice versa.
>
> Conclusion: verb tenses don't have the fixed meanings we like to think
> they have. It's all a matter of fashion.

I think a lot of it is about redundancy. "For the first time" already
expresses that it has never happened in the past, so it seems redundant
to express that again by using the perfect tense.

But then, from the point of view of some languages, when you said
"yesterday", it's redundant to also use the past tense on top of that,
yet all the Germanic languages will require that (in an unmarked style).

--
The country has its quota of fools and windbags; such people are
most prominent in politics, where their inherent weaknesses seem
less glaring and attract less ridicule than they would in other
walks of life. -- Robert Bothwell et.al.: Canada since 1945

On Sunday, August 21, 2022 at 5:55:42 PM UTC-4, Quinn C wrote:

> But then, from the point of view of some languages, when you said
> "yesterday", it's redundant to also use the past tense on top of that,
> yet all the Germanic languages will require that (in an unmarked style).

But not the equivalent for the future. Don't go for logic!