"Across Israel, huge billboards tower over central highways, while large placards have been placed in front of schools, supermarkets, and government buildings. They all feature a new slogan: “Together we will win.”

The slogan is short and sharp (in Hebrew, it is made up of two words, “beyahad nenatzeach”) and has been embraced by large segments of Israel’s Jewish population. Part of its attraction is likely due to its ambiguity, allowing each viewer to interpret the word “win” differently.

Despite different interpretations of what victory would look like, however, there appears to be wide consensus among Israelis that a victory of any type can only be achieved through unleashing lethal violence on Gaza.

Otherwise, how do we explain that when fleeing residents, travelling on a road Israel identified as a “safe route” to the south, are hit by a deadly air strike not a single voice on mainstream media is heard criticising the assault? Nor do we hear any outrage when bombs are dropped in the middle of one of the most crowded neighbourhoods in Jabalia refugee camp or when missiles strike a convoy of ambulances. For most Israelis, “winning” currently seems to justify almost any violence.
....
Considering that Hamas is an ideology, a social movement and a governing apparatus that includes a military arm, the scope and feasibility of this goal are unclear, but it will definitely entail killing thousands of combatants, including their political and military leaders, demolishing the tunnel system Hamas has created, and destroying the weapons the group has amassed. And the killing of thousands of civilians, the massive displacement of the population, and extensive destruction of civilian sites is considered legitimate “collateral damage”.

But if the destruction of Hamas is the end goal, then “winning” also entails a regime change in Gaza as well as creating a new reality on the ground where Israel controls not only the borders surrounding the Gaza Strip, but also what happens within these borders.

It is only at this point, however, that the current widespread consensus in Israel about the need to annihilate Hamas becomes fractured and “winning” is interpreted differently according to the political group to which one belongs.

For the religious right, the heinous Hamas massacre is considered an opportunity to resettle the Gaza Strip with Jewish settlers. The blanket bombing and the displacement of more than a million Palestinians makes it possible to slice the Strip into different parts and to create Palestinian-free zones where Jewish settlers can take over land and rebuild settlements. Resettlement of the Gaza Strip is, however, part of a larger plan to Judaise the entire region – from the river to the sea. At this very moment – and under the cover of Israel’s violence in the Gaza Strip – settlers belonging to this political group are expelling Palestinian communities from the hills east of Ramallah, the Jordan Valley and the South Hebron Hills in the West Bank. “Winning” for them is completing the Nakba once and for all by replacing the indigenous population with Jews throughout the Biblical land of Israel.
....
The remaining political centre and many Jewish Israeli liberals do not really know what “winning” means beyond the exertion of horrific violence to “destroy Hamas.” Trapped in a militaristic and now retributive paradigm, they seem to think that Israelis and Palestinians are locked in a fatalistic zero-sum game where only the application of violence against Palestinians will somehow ensure Jews are safe. Not entirely sure about what victory means, but desiring this end result, nonetheless, they, too, support the violence.
....
Only a tiny segment of Israel’s Jewish society is refusing these forms of “winning” and are calling for an immediate ceasefire.. For them, then, winning entails a complete and total paradigm shift, transforming Israel into a single democratic state between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea where Jews and Palestinians can live together as equals."

https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2023/11/10/what-winning-the-war-means-for-israelis

"Neve Gordon is an Israeli professor and academic. He is a professor of international law and human rights at Queen Mary University of London and writes on issues relating to the Israeli–Palestinian conflict and human rights. He used to teach at Ben-Gurion University of the Negev. " (Wikepedia)

ltlee1, <news:5dab9c98-fc8a-4faf-aec2-2441edf0cf1an@googlegroups.com>

> Only a tiny segment of Israel's Jewish society is refusing these
> forms of "winning" and are calling for an immediate ceasefire. For
> them, then, winning entails a complete and total paradigm shift,
> transforming Israel into a single democratic state between the
> Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea where Jews and Palestinians
> can live together as equals."
>
> https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2023/11/10/what-winning-the-war-means-for-israelis
>
> "Neve Gordon is an Israeli professor and academic. He is a
> professor of international law and human rights at Queen Mary
> University of London and writes on issues relating to the Israeli-
> Palestinian conflict and human rights. He used to teach at Ben-
> Gurion University of the Negev. " (Wikepedia)

The professor maybe has forgotten to mention one relevant fact that
the Hamas group was originated as a creature of the Israel's own secret
services. Hamas had been officialy established in 1987 under leadeship
of Sheikh Yassin, but this guy began his political activism among the
Palestinians earlier in the 1970s and had quite a group of supporters
several years before the establishment of Hamas. Maybe, the example of
Afghanistan, where the US/"west" managed to egg the local jihadists up
against the socialist government pushed the Israeli strategists to the
creative idea to somewhat similarly maintain among the Palestinians an
Islamist faction as an intra-Palestinian rival to Fatah. The latter at
the time was sort of socialist (and got support from the Soviets) and
was (and is) more secular rather than Islamist. I.e., they implemented
the classical "divide and conquer" approach.

Testimonies about the patronage of the Israeli secret servces over the
proto-Hamas formation come from the Israel's own activists and experts.
More often their right blame their left for the ill-thought strategy,
although in fact it's dificult to judge what factions within Israel
were more complicit. Also, there was some information from Assange
<https://tinyurl.com/plxyynf> and other sources. For American public,
the story seems to be unknown. In the 1980s the idea to set "jihadists"
up against "socialists" might look very productive. But in the both
Afghanistan and Palestine cases, it backfired then in the longer term.
Today, regardless of whether Israel could suppress Gaza, the mess
greatly reduces its chances of normalization with the Islamic world.

The idea of "a single democratic state where Jews and Palestinians can
live together" does not look realistic, as the mutual hatred between
them has come to tribal feuding. Besides, the long-term conflict seems
to become some "game" <https://is.gd/s8u5RA> with "self-damaging roles
instead of rational benefits". Such games may be dificult to end.

On 11/14/2023 11:00 AM, Oleg Smirnov wrote:
> [...]

https://meduza.io/feature/2023/11/14/tsahal-opublikoval-video-s-infrastrukturoy-hamas-pod-detskoy-bolnitsey-v-gaze

Пресс-служба Армии обороны Израиля (ЦАХАЛ) опубликовала видео, в
котором, как утверждается, показана инфраструктура ХАМАС под детской
больницей «Рантиси» в Газе. В подвале здания хранилось оружие. Там же,
вероятно, удерживали заложников.

Видео представили во время ночной пресс-конференции с участием
официального представителя ЦАХАЛ Даниэля Хагари. «ХАМАС прячется в
больницах. Сегодня мы покажем это всему миру», — заявил он перед показом
видео.

Хагари, который сам побывал в подвалах «Рантиси», показал в видео вход в
тоннель. Он расположен у дома одного из «высокопоставленных террористов»
ХАМАС, возглавляющего подразделение военно-морского спецназа
группировки. По словам Хагари, этот человек руководил атаками на
Израиль. Его имени он не назвал, отметив, что дом боевика находится
рядом со школой и больницей. 11 ноября ЦАХАЛ отчитался об убийстве
одного из командиров ХАМАС Ахмеда Сиама, который, как заявила армия
Израиля, удерживал в заложниках в больнице «Рантиси» около тысячи
жителей Газы, не позволяя им эвакуироваться.

Как утверждает представитель ЦАХАЛ, тоннель соединен с подвалами
больницы. Там, по его словам, боевики хранили оружие и «снаряжение для
серьезного боя». Среди прочего, утверждают израильские военные, в
подвалах были обнаружены жилеты и пояса смертников, взрывчатка, автоматы
Калашникова, гранаты, а также гранатометы, из которых, заявил Хагари,
боевики стреляют «прямо из больниц».

В ролике показан мотоцикл со следами от пуль. На нем боевики могли
привезти в больницу заложников, захваченных в Израиле 7 октября, считает
ЦАХАЛ. Рядом с мотоциклом израильские военные увидели стул с женской
одеждой и веревкой, а также бутылку для детского питания. В этом же
подвале были обнаружены туалет, душ и кухня, а также помещение,
предположительно, для съемок видео с заложниками. В этих комнатах,
заявила армия Израиля, скрывались террористы ХАМАС — и туда же привезли
заложников.

В ролике Хагари говорит, что израильские военные вошли в здание «сегодня
вечером» (когда именно была сделана запись, неясно; ЦАХАЛ опубликовал
видео вечером 13 ноября) и операция «все еще продолжается». На
пресс-конференции представитель ЦАХАЛ заявил, что Израиль помог
эвакуировать «Рантиси» и другие больницы на севере сектора Газа, где
идут самые ожесточенные бои.

«Рантиси» и расположенный рядом с ней медицинский центр «Аль-Наср» были
эвакуированы 10 ноября, сообщала Би-би-си со ссылкой на Управление ООН
по координации гуманитарных вопросов. В зданиях остались несколько
пациентов и сотрудников.

Видео ЦАХАЛ из подвалов «Рантиси» опубликовали примерно в то же время,
как палестинцы сообщили, что армия Израиля заблокировала крупнейшую
больницу Газы — «Аш-Шифа». По данным израильских властей, под ней
находится главный оперативный центр ХАМАС.

Глава Всемирной организации здравоохранения Тедрос Гебрейесус
утверждает, что у больницы не хватает топлива и продовольствия, вокруг
идут активные бои. Он призвал к немедленному прекращению огня. Врачи
больницы утверждают, что из-за нехватки топлива им пришлось достать из
инкубаторов недоношенных младенцев, которые теперь могут погибнуть. По
данным международной благотворительной организации ActionAid, с 11
ноября в больнице «Аш-Шифа» погибли трое новорожденных, инкубаторы
которых пришлось отключить. Еще 36 младенцев пытаются спасти врачи.

Командование Армии обороны Израиля заявления палестинской стороны о
блокировании больницы «Аш-Шифа» отрицает и называет дезинформацией. В
ЦАХАЛ говорили, что оставили возле больницы канистры с 300 литрами
топлива для генераторов. Израиль также заявил, что готов помочь с
эвакуацией младенцев и доставить свои инкубаторы в «Аш-Шифа».

После сообщений об «Аш-Шифа» и других больницах Газы возросло
международное давление на Израиль, от которого требуют приложить больше
усилий для защиты мирного населения. В частности, обеспокоенность
выразил президент США Джо Байден. «Я надеюсь и ожидаю, что в отношении
больницы будут предприниматься менее радикальные действия», — сказал он,
добавив, что «обсуждает этот вопрос с израильтянами». Правозащитники из
Human Rights Watch призвали расследовать атаки израильских военных на
медицинские учреждения «как военные преступления».

ЦАХАЛ неоднократно обвинял боевиков ХАМАС в том, что они используют
гражданские объекты Газы, в том числе больницы, для сокрытия военной
инфраструктуры, а также в том, что террористы прикрываются мирными
жителями как живым щитом. Как отмечает Times of Israel, таким образом
боевики «вынуждают Израиль свернуть наступление в секторе Газа или
рисковать новыми жертвами среди мирных жителей». ХАМАС отрицает, что его
боевики прячутся под больницами.

Медицинские учреждения и их сотрудники защищены Женевской конвенцией, в
которой говорится, что больницы, где оказывают помощь мирному населению,
ни при каких обстоятельствах не могут быть объектом нападения, а также
должны пользоваться защитой всех сторон конфликта.

При этом в той же конвенции говорится, что больницы не должны находиться
рядом с военными объектами из-за опасности, которой они могут
подвергнуться при таком соседстве.

Защита, на которую имеют право гражданские больницы во время войны,
может прекратиться в случае, если они «используются не только для их
гуманитарных целей, но и для совершения действий, направленных против
неприятеля», говорится в документе. Защита прекращается «после
соответствующего предупреждения во всех необходимых случаях,
устанавливающего разумный срок и не давшего результатов».

Dmitry Krivitsky, <news:0ff09618-c97c-4a18-8b05-c7b1708155bf@fido.fw.nu>
> On 11/14/2023 11:00 AM, Oleg Smirnov wrote:

> https://meduza.io/feature/2023/11/14/tsahal-opublikoval-video-s-infrastrukturoy-hamas-pod-detskoy-bolnitsey-v-gaze
>
> ?????-?????? ????? ??????? ??????? (?????) ???????????? ?????, ? ???????,

| .. Local health officials dismiss the claims .. Speaking by phone
| to CNN on Tuesday, Mohammed Zarqout, who has responsibility for all
| of Gaza's hospitals, said the basement at Al Rantisi had been used
| as a shelter for women and children - not to store Hamas weaponry
| and hold hostages .. <https://tinyurl.com/yvzn7lxt> cnn.com

One should decide for themselves which propaganda to believe
(I still can notice the amusing fact that even the American CNN
permits little bit of skepticism while meduza.io does not).

Another notable fact is that the number of children Israel is
killing currently per day is about 4 times more than the number
of children dying in the Ukraine per month due to the SMO.

On 11/14/2023 9:52 PM, Oleg Smirnov wrote:
> Dmitry Krivitsky, <news:0ff09618-c97c-4a18-8b05-c7b1708155bf@fido.fw.nu>
>> On 11/14/2023 11:00 AM, Oleg Smirnov wrote:
>
>> https://meduza.io/feature/2023/11/14/tsahal-opublikoval-video-s-infrastrukturoy-hamas-pod-detskoy-bolnitsey-v-gaze
>>
>> ?????-?????? ????? ??????? ??????? (?????) ???????????? ?????, ? ???????,

Сам ты ????.

> | .. Local health officials dismiss the claims .. Speaking by phone
> | to CNN on Tuesday, Mohammed Zarqout, who has responsibility for all
> | of Gaza's hospitals, said the basement at Al Rantisi had been used
> | as a shelter for women and children - not to store Hamas weaponry
> | and hold hostages .. <https://tinyurl.com/yvzn7lxt> cnn.com
>
> One should decide for themselves which propaganda to believe
> (I still can notice the amusing fact that even the American CNN
> permits little bit of skepticism while meduza.io does not).

А фото и видео?
Кому верить: своим лживым глазам, или известному своей правдивостью
хамасу, и не менее правдивой русской пропаганде?

> Another notable fact is that the number of children Israel is
> killing currently per day is about 4 times more than the number
> of children dying in the Ukraine per month due to the SMO.

....как подсчитал тот же хамас, с той же русской пропагандой.

Кстати, тебя не затруднит сравнить с количеством русских детей, которых
убивала в секунду фашистская бандеровская Украина до аннексии Крыма,
спасшей русских от нацистов?

Dmitry Krivitsky, <news:361e979c-9bf6-43c0-bd42-24dc2568df3e@fido.fw.nu>
> On 11/14/2023 9:52 PM, Oleg Smirnov wrote:

>> | .. Local health officials dismiss the claims .. Speaking by phone
>> | to CNN on Tuesday, Mohammed Zarqout, who has responsibility for all
>> | of Gaza's hospitals, said the basement at Al Rantisi had been used
>> | as a shelter for women and children - not to store Hamas weaponry
>> | and hold hostages .. <https://tinyurl.com/yvzn7lxt> cnn.com
>>
>> One should decide for themselves which propaganda to believe
>> (I still can notice the amusing fact that even the American CNN
>> permits little bit of skepticism while meduza.io does not).
>
> А фото и видео?
> Кому верить: своим лживым глазам, или известному своей правдивостью
> хамасу, и не менее правдивой русской пропаганде?

"Russian propaganda" is aside here.

You're unhealthily fixated on it because you're a moron.

>> Another notable fact is that the number of children Israel is
>> killing currently per day is about 4 times more than the number
>> of children dying in the Ukraine per month due to the SMO.
>
> ...как подсчитал тот же хамас, с той же русской пропагандой.

The data for Gaza and for the Ukraine are both from UN sources
<https://tinyurl.com/23memetz> 545 Ukraine per 18 months
<https://tinyurl.com/ym9mdofo> 4600 Gaza per 39 days

On 11/14/2023 11:02 PM, Oleg Smirnov wrote:
> Dmitry Krivitsky, <news:361e979c-9bf6-43c0-bd42-24dc2568df3e@fido.fw.nu>
>> On 11/14/2023 9:52 PM, Oleg Smirnov wrote:
>
>>> | .. Local health officials dismiss the claims .. Speaking by phone
>>> | to CNN on Tuesday, Mohammed Zarqout, who has responsibility for all
>>> | of Gaza's hospitals, said the basement at Al Rantisi had been used
>>> | as a shelter for women and children - not to store Hamas weaponry
>>> | and hold hostages .. <https://tinyurl.com/yvzn7lxt> cnn.com
>>>
>>> One should decide for themselves which propaganda to believe
>>> (I still can notice the amusing fact that even the American CNN
>>> permits little bit of skepticism while meduza.io does not).
>>
>> А фото и видео?
>> Кому верить: своим лживым глазам, или известному своей правдивостью
>> хамасу, и не менее правдивой русской пропаганде?
>
> "Russian propaganda" is aside here.

"Russian propaganda" is right here. You are Russian propaganda.

> You're unhealthily fixated on it because you're a moron.

Хочешь сказать, что нужно перестать тебя читать?

> from UN sources

Гы-гы-гы.

Dmitry Krivitsky, <news:e0d4b08c-0a97-47fb-850e-f9e15e2c985a@fido.fw.nu>
> On 11/14/2023 11:02 PM, Oleg Smirnov wrote:

>> "Russian propaganda" is aside here.
>
> "Russian propaganda" is right here. You are Russian propaganda.
>
>> You're unhealthily fixated on it because you're a moron.
>
> Хочешь сказать, что нужно перестать тебя читать?
>
>> from UN sources
>
> Гы-гы-гы.

So the UN is promoting lies while the Israeli propaganda
is the only truth, since the anti-Semitism is everywhere
(and the Russian propaganda is the main driver).

On 15.11.2023 01:14, Dmitry Krivitsky wrote:

> котором, как утверждается, показана инфраструктура ХАМАС под детской
> больницей «Рантиси» в Газе. В подвале здания хранилось оружие. Там же,
> вероятно, удерживали заложников.

Мда, всё грустнее и грустнее: снесли бомбами несколько кварталов,
захватили зал суда, какой то сфотографировались и там и там "парламент
газы", "кабинет президент". Нашли какие то детские больницы, где
"хранилось оружие". Всё в пределах района, размером с половину
московского района Зюзино. Который они до сих пор не контролируют, но
(вроде) его уже можно проехать насквозь на танке. В дневное время.
.....захвачена пара подвалов, где "жили боевики".

Потеряли полторы сотни бронетехники и более тысячи солдат убитыми.
А что будет, если этот самый "цахал" начнёт воевать не с тапочниками, а
хотя бы - с хезболлой?

Даже представить себе боюсь. А бюджет государства Израиль уже должен
показать дно. Резервы на войну исчерпаны.

--
Благословлѧю на ​добрыꙗ​ дѣла. Вашь Іаковъ.

On 11/15/2023 1:19 AM, Iakov Senatov wrote:
> On 15.11.2023 01:14, Dmitry Krivitsky wrote:
>
>> котором, как утверждается, показана инфраструктура ХАМАС под детской
>> больницей «Рантиси» в Газе. В подвале здания хранилось оружие. Там же,
>> вероятно, удерживали заложников.
>
> Мда, всё грустнее и грустнее: снесли бомбами несколько кварталов,
> захватили зал суда, какой то  сфотографировались и там и там "парламент
> газы", "кабинет президент". Нашли какие то детские больницы, где
> "хранилось оружие". Всё в пределах района, размером с половину
> московского района Зюзино. Который они до сих пор не контролируют, но
> (вроде) его уже можно проехать насквозь на танке. В дневное время.
> ....захвачена пара подвалов, где "жили боевики".
>
> Потеряли полторы сотни бронетехники и более тысячи солдат убитыми.
> А что будет, если этот самый "цахал" начнёт воевать не с тапочниками, а
> хотя бы - с хезболлой?
>
> Даже представить себе боюсь.

Конечно, можно только догадываться. Израиль ведь ни с кем никогда не воевал.

> А бюджет государства Израиль уже должен
> показать дно. Резервы на войну исчерпаны.

А ты им помощь пошли. Гуманитарную.

On 11/14/2023 11:33 PM, Oleg Smirnov wrote:
> Dmitry Krivitsky, <news:e0d4b08c-0a97-47fb-850e-f9e15e2c985a@fido.fw.nu>
>> On 11/14/2023 11:02 PM, Oleg Smirnov wrote:
>
>>> "Russian propaganda" is aside here.
>>
>> "Russian propaganda" is right here. You are Russian propaganda.
>>
>>> You're unhealthily fixated on it because you're a moron.
>>
>> Хочешь сказать, что нужно перестать тебя читать?
>>
>>> from UN sources
>>
>> Гы-гы-гы.
>
> So the UN is promoting lies while the Israeli propaganda
> is the only truth, since the anti-Semitism is everywhere
> (and the Russian propaganda is the main driver).

You got it.

On 15.11.2023 10:36, Dmitry Krivitsky wrote:

> Конечно, можно только догадываться. Израиль ведь ни с кем никогда не
> воевал.
2 последние войны, Израиль стоял на грани поражения. Как мне
охарактеризовать битву за условное Зюзино с такими потерями, я прямо и
не знаю. Можно лишь утверждать, что пока битва идёт по пути,
спланированному хамасовскими штабистами, потери огромны, захват
территории ничего не даёт, потому - что не взяты тоннели, а брать их
некому и нечем.

>
>> А бюджет государства Израиль уже должен показать дно. Резервы на войну
>> исчерпаны.
>
> А ты им помощь пошли. Гуманитарную.

Если я желаю обеим сторонам победы и не берусь никого осуждать, это не
означает, что я прям кому-то там сочувствую.

--
Благословлѧю на ​добрыꙗ​ дѣла. Вашь Іаковъ.

On 11/15/2023 4:36 AM, Dmitry Krivitsky wrote:
> On 11/15/2023 1:19 AM, Iakov Senatov wrote:
>> On 15.11.2023 01:14, Dmitry Krivitsky wrote:
>>
>>> котором, как утверждается, показана инфраструктура ХАМАС под детской
>>> больницей «Рантиси» в Газе. В подвале здания хранилось оружие. Там
>>> же, вероятно, удерживали заложников.
>>
>> Мда, всё грустнее и грустнее: снесли бомбами несколько кварталов,
>> захватили зал суда, какой то  сфотографировались и там и там
>> "парламент газы", "кабинет президент". Нашли какие то детские
>> больницы, где "хранилось оружие". Всё в пределах района, размером с
>> половину московского района Зюзино. Который они до сих пор не
>> контролируют, но (вроде) его уже можно проехать насквозь на танке. В
>> дневное время.
>> ....захвачена пара подвалов, где "жили боевики".
>>
>> Потеряли полторы сотни бронетехники и более тысячи солдат убитыми.
>> А что будет, если этот самый "цахал" начнёт воевать не с тапочниками,
>> а хотя бы - с хезболлой?
>>
>> Даже представить себе боюсь.
>
> Конечно, можно только догадываться. Израиль ведь ни с кем никогда не
> воевал.

также можно только догадываться, из какой ham ass яшак высосал "более
тысячи солдат убитыми"

оцициальные данные - 48 человек

т.е. где-то порядка 1:100 соотношение, если считать, что газовский
"минздрав" выдаёт правильный порядок шахидов, и из них ham ass - только
половина

>> А бюджет государства Израиль уже должен показать дно. Резервы на войну
>> исчерпаны.
>
> А ты им помощь пошли. Гуманитарную.

мы послали в Magen David Adom
https://afmda.org/

On 11/15/2023 6:10 AM, Iakov Senatov wrote:
> On 15.11.2023 10:36, Dmitry Krivitsky wrote:
>
>> Конечно, можно только догадываться. Израиль ведь ни с кем никогда не
>> воевал.
> 2 последние войны, Израиль стоял на грани поражения. Как мне
> охарактеризовать битву за условное Зюзино с такими потерями, я прямо и
> не знаю. Можно лишь утверждать, что пока битва идёт по пути,
> спланированному хамасовскими штабистами, потери огромны, захват

потери огромны у ваших, хам ассовских яшаков

> территории ничего не даёт, потому - что не взяты тоннели, а брать их
> некому и нечем.

в тоннелях вкалывают роботы

On Tuesday, November 14, 2023 at 4:01:47 PM UTC, Oleg Smirnov wrote:
> ltlee1, <news:5dab9c98-fc8a-4faf...@googlegroups.com>
> > Only a tiny segment of Israel's Jewish society is refusing these
> > forms of "winning" and are calling for an immediate ceasefire. For
> > them, then, winning entails a complete and total paradigm shift,
> > transforming Israel into a single democratic state between the
> > Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea where Jews and Palestinians
> > can live together as equals."
> >
> > https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2023/11/10/what-winning-the-war-means-for-israelis
> >
> > "Neve Gordon is an Israeli professor and academic. He is a
> > professor of international law and human rights at Queen Mary
> > University of London and writes on issues relating to the Israeli-
> > Palestinian conflict and human rights. He used to teach at Ben-
> > Gurion University of the Negev. " (Wikepedia)

> The professor maybe has forgotten to mention one relevant fact that
> the Hamas group was originated as a creature of the Israel's own secret
> services. Hamas had been officialy established in 1987 under leadeship
> of Sheikh Yassin, but this guy began his political activism among the
> Palestinians earlier in the 1970s and had quite a group of supporters
> several years before the establishment of Hamas. Maybe, the example of
> Afghanistan, where the US/"west" managed to egg the local jihadists up
> against the socialist government pushed the Israeli strategists to the
> creative idea to somewhat similarly maintain among the Palestinians an
> Islamist faction as an intra-Palestinian rival to Fatah. The latter at
> the time was sort of socialist (and got support from the Soviets) and
> was (and is) more secular rather than Islamist. I.e., they implemented
> the classical "divide and conquer" approach.

The well known saying "the enemy of my enemy is my friend." Not surprised
that Israel would support the Hamas at some point. But at present, who had
contributed to Hamas is irrelevant. At present, Israel has certainly suffered in
the hand of Hamas.

>
> Testimonies about the patronage of the Israeli secret servces over the
> proto-Hamas formation come from the Israel's own activists and experts.
> More often their right blame their left for the ill-thought strategy,
> although in fact it's dificult to judge what factions within Israel
> were more complicit. Also, there was some information from Assange
> <https://tinyurl.com/plxyynf> and other sources. For American public,
> the story seems to be unknown. In the 1980s the idea to set "jihadists"
> up against "socialists" might look very productive. But in the both
> Afghanistan and Palestine cases, it backfired then in the longer term.
> Today, regardless of whether Israel could suppress Gaza, the mess
> greatly reduces its chances of normalization with the Islamic world.
>
> The idea of "a single democratic state where Jews and Palestinians can
> live together" does not look realistic, as the mutual hatred between
> them has come to tribal feuding.

I know VERY little about Israel. And the author of the article certainly knows a
lot about Israel given his background. However, I am not sure the "They" in the
following sentence

"They seem to accept that “winning” entails killing on average six children every hour since
October 7, and transforming Gaza into a “graveyard for children,” as UN chief Antonio Guterres
put it" means

1) an overwhelmingly large percentage, and
2) this "They" could not be changed.

Basically, the Israeli needs to do something. To the extent that they could not kill a large number
of "terrorists" in a short time, killing civilians, however innocent, is still demonstrating Israel
governmental response , an attempt to be responsible.

> Besides, the long-term conflict seems
> to become some "game" <https://is.gd/s8u5RA> with "self-damaging roles
> instead of rational benefits". Such games may be dificult to end.

"Hitler was duly elected." (A saying Newyork Times chooses not to report.)
Similarly, Netanyahu is also duly elected and he is considered by some to be the
most successful politician. "Self damaging" is likely to be a feature of election
based democracy. Judeo-nazism or Judeo-neonazism has been on the rise for
years. The question is how far will it travel.

On 11/15/2023 1:19 AM, Iakov Senatov wrote:
> On 15.11.2023 01:14, Dmitry Krivitsky wrote:
>
>> котором, как утверждается, показана инфраструктура ХАМАС под детской
>> больницей «Рантиси» в Газе. В подвале здания хранилось оружие. Там же,
>> вероятно, удерживали заложников.
>
> Мда, всё грустнее и грустнее: снесли бомбами несколько кварталов,
> захватили зал суда, какой то  сфотографировались и там и там "парламент
> газы", "кабинет президент". Нашли какие то детские больницы, где

а был ли он, "парламент газы"?

https://twitter.com/sentdefender/status/1724810523265679554

On 11/15/2023 11:44 AM, Вулкaн wrote:
> On 11/15/2023 1:19 AM, Iakov Senatov wrote:
>> On 15.11.2023 01:14, Dmitry Krivitsky wrote:
>>
>>> котором, как утверждается, показана инфраструктура ХАМАС под детской
>>> больницей «Рантиси» в Газе. В подвале здания хранилось оружие. Там
>>> же, вероятно, удерживали заложников.
>>
>> Мда, всё грустнее и грустнее: снесли бомбами несколько кварталов,
>> захватили зал суда, какой то  сфотографировались и там и там
>> "парламент газы", "кабинет президент". Нашли какие то детские
>> больницы, где
>
> а был ли он, "парламент газы"?
>
> https://twitter.com/sentdefender/status/1724810523265679554

....видимо, "госпиталь газы" - следующий

Oleg Smirnov <os333@netc.eu> wrote:
> >> killing currently per day is about 4 times more than the number
> >> of children dying in the Ukraine per month due to the SMO.
> >
> > ...как подсчитал тот же хамас, с той же русской пропагандой.

> The data for Gaza and for the Ukraine are both from UN sources
> <https://tinyurl.com/23memetz> 545 Ukraine per 18 months
> <https://tinyurl.com/ym9mdofo> 4600 Gaza per 39 days

Какой смысл разговаривать с этим идиотом ?

---
Const

> The data for Gaza and for the Ukraine are both from UN sources
> <https://tinyurl.com/23memetz> 545 Ukraine per 18 months
> <https://tinyurl.com/ym9mdofo> 4600 Gaza per 39 days

| <https://archive.is/WXiq6> wsj.com
|
| The U.S. intelligence community has growing confidence that
| reports on the death toll from health authorities in Hamas-
| controlled Gaza are roughly accurate, U.S. officials said.

The anti-Semites seem to have managed to capture the WSJ, as
well as the U.S. intelligence community. It's notable, such
anonymous "leaks" with reference to "intelligence community"
or some "unnamed officials" have become a common practice in
the Atlanticist mass media, - they allow the MSM to promote
narratives without any liability and without names that might
be seen liable. In this particular case, it seems the US can
not afford to ignore the reality as it no longer can ignore
the popular sentiment in what they call Global South.

In general, this "anonymous officials" practics reminds the
regular readers that they are sort of kindergarten, to whom
the MSM conveys what "the adults" are talking about up there.

| <https://tinyurl.com/ysvlexq9> aa.com.tr
| | The latest toll .. was 11,320 fatalities, including
| 4,650 children and 3,145 women .. 95 government buildings
| and 255 schools have been destroyed .. the Israeli army
| targeted 52 health centers and 55 ambulances, while 25
| hospitals have run out of service ..

> the Hamas group was originated as a creature of the Israel's own secret
> services. Hamas had been officialy established in 1987 under leadeship
> of Sheikh Yassin, but this guy began his political activism among the
> Palestinians earlier in the 1970s and had quite a group of supporters
> several years before the establishment of Hamas. Maybe, the example of
> Afghanistan, where the US/"west" managed to egg the local jihadists up
> against the socialist government pushed the Israeli strategists to the
> creative idea to somewhat similarly maintain among the Palestinians an
> Islamist faction as an intra-Palestinian rival to Fatah. The latter at
> the time was sort of socialist (and got support from the Soviets) and
> was (and is) more secular rather than Islamist. I.e., they implemented
> the classical "divide and conquer" approach.
>
> Testimonies about the patronage of the Israeli secret servces over the
> proto-Hamas formation come from the Israel's own activists and experts.
> More often their right blame their left for the ill-thought strategy,
> although in fact it's dificult to judge what factions within Israel
> were more complicit.

One recent article where the left is blaming the Israeli right.

| .. Netanyahu and the Israeli military have attempted to obscure their
| massive failure with a massive display of firepower .. Netanyahu .. It
| is well-documented that he and others in Likud helped to create Hamas,
| gave financial support to it in order to fracture the Palestinians so
| Likud and other right-wing Israeli parties opposed to any Palestinian
| state could claim they had no party to negotiate with .. This simply as
| a delaying tactic while the Israeli settlements metastasized throughout
| the West Bank. But on October 7 the folly of Netanyahu's connivance in
| the creation Hamas was lost for most Israelis in the mists of time.
| How clever he was until he wasn't .. <https://tinyurl.com/ykzamt86>

> Also, there was some information from Assange
> <https://tinyurl.com/plxyynf> and other sources. For American public,
> the story seems to be unknown. In the 1980s the idea to set "jihadists"
> up against "socialists" might look very productive. But in the both
> Afghanistan and Palestine cases, it backfired then in the longer term.

>> the Hamas group was originated as a creature of the Israel's own secret
>> services. Hamas had been officialy established in 1987 under leadeship
>> of Sheikh Yassin, but this guy began his political activism among the
>> Palestinians earlier in the 1970s and had quite a group of supporters
>> several years before the establishment of Hamas. Maybe, the example of
>> Afghanistan, where the US/"west" managed to egg the local jihadists up
>> against the socialist government pushed the Israeli strategists to the
>> creative idea to somewhat similarly maintain among the Palestinians an
>> Islamist faction as an intra-Palestinian rival to Fatah. The latter at
>> the time was sort of socialist (and got support from the Soviets) and
>> was (and is) more secular rather than Islamist. I.e., they implemented
>> the classical "divide and conquer" approach.
>>
>> Testimonies about the patronage of the Israeli secret servces over the
>> proto-Hamas formation come from the Israel's own activists and experts.
>> More often their right blame their left for the ill-thought strategy,
>> although in fact it's dificult to judge what factions within Israel
>> were more complicit.
>
> One recent article where the left is blaming the Israeli right.
>
> | .. Netanyahu and the Israeli military have attempted to obscure their
> | massive failure with a massive display of firepower .. Netanyahu .. It
> | is well-documented that he and others in Likud helped to create Hamas,
> | gave financial support to it in order to fracture the Palestinians so
> | Likud and other right-wing Israeli parties opposed to any Palestinian
> | state could claim they had no party to negotiate with .. This simply as
> | a delaying tactic while the Israeli settlements metastasized throughout
> | the West Bank. But on October 7 the folly of Netanyahu's connivance in
> | the creation Hamas was lost for most Israelis in the mists of time.
> | How clever he was until he wasn't .. <https://tinyurl.com/ykzamt86>
>
>> Also, there was some information from Assange
>> <https://tinyurl.com/plxyynf> and other sources. For American public,
>> the story seems to be unknown. In the 1980s the idea to set "jihadists"
>> up against "socialists" might look very productive. But in the both
>> Afghanistan and Palestine cases, it backfired then in the longer term.

| <http://alturl.com/md9ff> euronews.com
|
| Josep Borrell, the European Union's foreign policy chief, has
| accused Israel of financing Hamas to "weaken the Palestinian
| Authority of Fatah." The diplomat .. did not provide concrete
| evidence to support his claim .. Borrell also accused Prime
| Minister Benjamin Netanyahu of "personally" derailing any
| attempt to resolve the decades-long Israeli-Palestinian
| conflict. "The bad news is that Israel, in particular its
| government, is completely refusing .. to accept a (two-state)
| solution ..

Today, many Western news outlets report the Borrell's words as
sort of "sensational claim" <https://archive.is/YAwbs>. This
stuff had for decades been known to those who are more familiar
with the Israeli internals, but it was muted out from Western
(especially American) popular discourse, because quite a strong
Israeli lobby there has their own idea of how to better shape
the image of Israel for the regular mass public. That's why
such an "accusation" looks to some Westerners today like a hot
breaking news.

Israel is against the idea of two independent states because it
understands that the popular sentiment among Palestinians will
keep their state to be an entity inconvenient for Israel. OTOH,
most of the Israelis stongly do not want to somehow integrate
the Palestinians among themselves within one state. So, Israel
wants to keep them apart from itself, but not as an independent
state but rather like a kind of zoo under Israel's supervision.

Other options maybe acceptable for Israel would be ethnic
cleansing or transfer of the Palestinian areas under control of
governments Israel considers saner and "curbable", but today
both Egypt (with regard to Gaza) and Jordan (with regard to the
West Bank) don't seem to be enthusiastic neither to take in the
Palestinians from there nor to participate in a management over
these territories.

On Saturday, January 20, 2024 at 6:59:50 AM UTC-5, Oleg Smirnov wrote:
> >> the Hamas group was originated as a creature of the Israel's own secret
> >> services. Hamas had been officialy established in 1987 under leadeship
> >> of Sheikh Yassin, but this guy began his political activism among the
> >> Palestinians earlier in the 1970s and had quite a group of supporters
> >> several years before the establishment of Hamas. Maybe, the example of
> >> Afghanistan, where the US/"west" managed to egg the local jihadists up
> >> against the socialist government pushed the Israeli strategists to the
> >> creative idea to somewhat similarly maintain among the Palestinians an
> >> Islamist faction as an intra-Palestinian rival to Fatah. The latter at
> >> the time was sort of socialist (and got support from the Soviets) and
> >> was (and is) more secular rather than Islamist. I.e., they implemented
> >> the classical "divide and conquer" approach.
> >>
> >> Testimonies about the patronage of the Israeli secret servces over the
> >> proto-Hamas formation come from the Israel's own activists and experts..
> >> More often their right blame their left for the ill-thought strategy,
> >> although in fact it's dificult to judge what factions within Israel
> >> were more complicit.
> >
> > One recent article where the left is blaming the Israeli right.
> >
> > | .. Netanyahu and the Israeli military have attempted to obscure their
> > | massive failure with a massive display of firepower .. Netanyahu .. It
> > | is well-documented that he and others in Likud helped to create Hamas,
> > | gave financial support to it in order to fracture the Palestinians so
> > | Likud and other right-wing Israeli parties opposed to any Palestinian
> > | state could claim they had no party to negotiate with .. This simply as
> > | a delaying tactic while the Israeli settlements metastasized throughout
> > | the West Bank. But on October 7 the folly of Netanyahu's connivance in
> > | the creation Hamas was lost for most Israelis in the mists of time.
> > | How clever he was until he wasn't .. <https://tinyurl.com/ykzamt86>
> >
> >> Also, there was some information from Assange
> >> <https://tinyurl.com/plxyynf> and other sources. For American public,
> >> the story seems to be unknown. In the 1980s the idea to set "jihadists"
> >> up against "socialists" might look very productive. But in the both
> >> Afghanistan and Palestine cases, it backfired then in the longer term.
> | <http://alturl.com/md9ff> euronews.com
> |
> | Josep Borrell, the European Union's foreign policy chief, has
> | accused Israel of financing Hamas to "weaken the Palestinian
> | Authority of Fatah." The diplomat .. did not provide concrete
> | evidence to support his claim .. Borrell also accused Prime
> | Minister Benjamin Netanyahu of "personally" derailing any
> | attempt to resolve the decades-long Israeli-Palestinian
> | conflict. "The bad news is that Israel, in particular its
> | government, is completely refusing .. to accept a (two-state)
> | solution ..
>
Here is the shocking news: Israeli military is the source for a significant number of weapons
used by Hamas in the Oct 7 attack.

"Israeli military and intelligence officials have concluded that a significant number of weapons used by Hamas in the Oct. 7 attacks and in the war in Gaza came from an unlikely source: the Israeli military itself.

For years, analysts have pointed to underground smuggling routes to explain how Hamas stayed so heavily armed despite an Israeli military blockade of the Gaza Strip. But recent intelligence has shown the extent to which Hamas has been able to build many of its rockets and anti-tank weaponry out of the thousands of munitions that failed to detonate when Israel lobbed them into Gaza, according to weapons experts and Israeli and Western intelligence officials. Hamas is also arming its fighters with weapons stolen from Israeli military bases."

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/01/28/world/middleeast/israel-hamas-weapons-rockets.html