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interests / alt.usage.english / hard or tough

SubjectAuthor
* hard or tougharthurvv vart
+* Re: hard or toughTony Cooper
|+- Re: hard or tougharthurvv vart
|+* Re: hard or toughPeter T. Daniels
||`* Re: hard or toughPaul Wolff
|| `- Re: hard or toughPeter T. Daniels
|`- Re: hard or toughPaul Carmichael
`* Re: hard or toughPeter Moylan
 +* Re: hard or toughSnidely
 |+- Re: hard or toughAthel Cornish-Bowden
 |+- Re: hard or toughPeter T. Daniels
 |+- Re: hard or toughKen Blake
 |`- Re: hard or toughPaul Carmichael
 +* Re: hard or toughCDB
 |`* Re: hard or toughKerr-Mudd, John
 | `* Re: hard or toughlar3ryca
 |  +- Re: hard or toughKerr-Mudd, John
 |  `* Re: hard or toughSam Plusnet
 |   `* Re: hard or toughlar3ryca
 |    `- Re: hard or toughRichard Heathfield
 +- Re: hard or toughJerry Friedman
 +* Re: hard or toughRich Ulrich
 |+* Re: hard or toughAthel Cornish-Bowden
 ||+- Re: hard or toughPaul Carmichael
 ||`- Re: hard or toughPeter T. Daniels
 |`- Re: hard or toughKerr-Mudd, John
 +* Re: hard or toughSam Plusnet
 |`* Re: hard or toughStefan Ram
 | +* Re: hard or toughSam Plusnet
 | |`- Re: hard or toughJerry Friedman
 | `- Re: hard or toughRich Ulrich
 `- Re: hard or toughJ. J. Lodder

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hard or tough

<ca352e96-ac0d-4619-b899-2e682bdf5921n@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: hard or tough
From: arthurv...@gmail.com (arthurvv vart)
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 by: arthurvv vart - Mon, 1 Aug 2022 00:15 UTC

1) The vase fell on the floor, but didn't break. I must be hard.
2) The vase fell on the floor, but didn't break. I must be tough.
3) The vase fell on the floor, but didn't break. I must be strong.

Which of the '3' has the correct word?

And then, is glass that doesn't break easily hard or tough?
I think glass is hard and that's why it breaks. It is not malleable.

Gratefully,
Navi

Re: hard or tough

<qe7eeh1aqotl6ui1g7s7fh61on3q6bf9uk@4ax.com>

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From: tonycoop...@gmail.com (Tony Cooper)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: hard or tough
Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2022 20:32:24 -0400
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 by: Tony Cooper - Mon, 1 Aug 2022 00:32 UTC

On Sun, 31 Jul 2022 17:15:10 -0700 (PDT), arthurvv vart
<arthurvarr@gmail.com> wrote:

>1) The vase fell on the floor, but didn't break. I must be hard.
>2) The vase fell on the floor, but didn't break. I must be tough.
>3) The vase fell on the floor, but didn't break. I must be strong.
>
>Which of the '3' has the correct word?

None.

The only reason to say you were hard, tough, or strong is because you
are not sad that the vase broke.

>
>And then, is glass that doesn't break easily hard or tough?

Neither.

>I think glass is hard

Yes.

>and that's why it breaks. It is not malleable.

Glass is hard, but if it does not break when dropped it is only
because it landed in such a way that it did not break. Or because it
did not land on a hard surface.

--

Tony Cooper - Orlando Florida

I read and post to this group as a form of entertainment.

Re: hard or tough

<5773d6d2-7c71-479e-9936-2bd4de27bc94n@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: hard or tough
From: arthurv...@gmail.com (arthurvv vart)
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 by: arthurvv vart - Mon, 1 Aug 2022 02:25 UTC

On Sunday, July 31, 2022 at 5:32:31 PM UTC-7, Tony Cooper wrote:
> On Sun, 31 Jul 2022 17:15:10 -0700 (PDT), arthurvv vart
> <arthu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >1) The vase fell on the floor, but didn't break. I must be hard.
> >2) The vase fell on the floor, but didn't break. I must be tough.
> >3) The vase fell on the floor, but didn't break. I must be strong.
> >
> >Which of the '3' has the correct word?
> None.
>
> The only reason to say you were hard, tough, or strong is because you
> are not sad that the vase broke.
> >
> >And then, is glass that doesn't break easily hard or tough?
> Neither.
> >I think glass is hard
> Yes.
> >and that's why it breaks. It is not malleable.
> Glass is hard, but if it does not break when dropped it is only
> because it landed in such a way that it did not break. Or because it
> did not land on a hard surface.
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Tony Cooper - Orlando Florida
>
> I read and post to this group as a form of entertainment.
Thank you very much, Tony, and my apologies,

I meant to type 'It' and I typed 'I'. I reread the whole thing and did not see the mistake. I only saw it after I read your reply,

Sorry.

Respectfully,
Navi

Re: hard or tough

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From: pet...@pmoylan.org.invalid (Peter Moylan)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: hard or tough
Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2022 13:18:39 +1000
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 by: Peter Moylan - Mon, 1 Aug 2022 03:18 UTC

On 01/08/22 10:15, arthurvv vart wrote:

> And then, is glass that doesn't break easily hard or tough? I think
> glass is hard and that's why it breaks. It is not malleable.

I had to learn these distinctions when I was studying a subject called
Engineering Materials. (The laboratory work included using something
called a hardness tester.) I have forgotten much of it, which suggests
that the technical definitions didn't really make it into everyday language.

The main distinction is that between elastic and plastic materials. An
elastic material, for example hard steel, will deform when a force is
applied, but then will bounce back when the force is removed. A plastic
material, for example tin, exhibits a permanent change in shape when a
force is applied.

A related but different distinction is that between ductile and brittle,
and that relates to the behaviour when a large force is applied, enough
to do damage. A ductile material deforms before it breaks. A brittle
material resists moderate forces, but enough force causes it to fail
catastrophically by breaking.

Tough is, in a way, the opposite of brittle. A tough material survives
even after being deformed.

Glass is a strange intermediate case, because its resistance to force
depends on the rate at which the force is applied. A slow but steady
force will cause it to flow, because glass is actually a very viscous
liquid. A rapidly applied force will, however, make it behave as a
brittle material.

--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org

Re: hard or tough

<mn.087f7e68ffce7593.127094@snitoo>

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From: snidely....@gmail.com (Snidely)
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Subject: Re: hard or tough
Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2022 02:07:30 -0700
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 by: Snidely - Mon, 1 Aug 2022 09:07 UTC

Peter Moylan wrote on 7/31/2022 :
> On 01/08/22 10:15, arthurvv vart wrote:
>
>> And then, is glass that doesn't break easily hard or tough? I think
>> glass is hard and that's why it breaks. It is not malleable.
>
> I had to learn these distinctions when I was studying a subject called
> Engineering Materials. (The laboratory work included using something
> called a hardness tester.) I have forgotten much of it, which suggests
> that the technical definitions didn't really make it into everyday language.
>
> The main distinction is that between elastic and plastic materials. An
> elastic material, for example hard steel, will deform when a force is
> applied, but then will bounce back when the force is removed. A plastic
> material, for example tin, exhibits a permanent change in shape when a
> force is applied.
>
> A related but different distinction is that between ductile and brittle,
> and that relates to the behaviour when a large force is applied, enough
> to do damage. A ductile material deforms before it breaks. A brittle
> material resists moderate forces, but enough force causes it to fail
> catastrophically by breaking.
>
> Tough is, in a way, the opposite of brittle. A tough material survives
> even after being deformed.
>
> Glass is a strange intermediate case, because its resistance to force
> depends on the rate at which the force is applied. A slow but steady
> force will cause it to flow, because glass is actually a very viscous
> liquid. A rapidly applied force will, however, make it behave as a
> brittle material.

Also, brittle is different than hard, although brittle materials are
typically hard. [I'm hedging here; I can't think of a brittle material
that isn't hard.]

Cracks also propagate differently in glass than in crystalline
materials, where the cleavage lines follow distinct boundaries. Cracks
in glass can go in weird directions, or be long and nearly straight.

/dps

--
Maybe C282Y is simply one of the hangers-on, a groupie following a
future guitar god of the human genome: an allele with undiscovered
virtuosity, currently soloing in obscurity in Mom's garage.
Bradley Wertheim, theAtlantic.com, Jan 10 2013

Re: hard or tough

<jkpjtsFtvoaU1@mid.individual.net>

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From: acorn...@imm.cnrs.fr (Athel Cornish-Bowden)
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Subject: Re: hard or tough
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 by: Athel Cornish-Bowden - Mon, 1 Aug 2022 09:15 UTC

On 2022-08-01 09:07:30 +0000, Snidely said:

> Peter Moylan wrote on 7/31/2022 :
>> On 01/08/22 10:15, arthurvv vart wrote:
>>
>>> And then, is glass that doesn't break easily hard or tough? I think
>>> glass is hard and that's why it breaks. It is not malleable.
>>
>> I had to learn these distinctions when I was studying a subject called
>> Engineering Materials. (The laboratory work included using something
>> called a hardness tester.) I have forgotten much of it, which suggests
>> that the technical definitions didn't really make it into everyday language.
>>
>> The main distinction is that between elastic and plastic materials. An
>> elastic material, for example hard steel, will deform when a force is
>> applied, but then will bounce back when the force is removed. A plastic
>> material, for example tin, exhibits a permanent change in shape when a
>> force is applied.
>>
>> A related but different distinction is that between ductile and brittle,
>> and that relates to the behaviour when a large force is applied, enough
>> to do damage. A ductile material deforms before it breaks. A brittle
>> material resists moderate forces, but enough force causes it to fail
>> catastrophically by breaking.
>>
>> Tough is, in a way, the opposite of brittle. A tough material survives
>> even after being deformed.
>>
>> Glass is a strange intermediate case, because its resistance to force
>> depends on the rate at which the force is applied. A slow but steady
>> force will cause it to flow, because glass is actually a very viscous
>> liquid. A rapidly applied force will, however, make it behave as a
>> brittle material.
>
> Also, brittle is different than hard, although brittle materials are
> typically hard. [I'm hedging here; I can't think of a brittle material
> that isn't hard.]

Biscuits (cookies), crackers?
>
> Cracks also propagate differently in glass than in crystalline
> materials, where the cleavage lines follow distinct boundaries. Cracks
> in glass can go in weird directions, or be long and nearly straight.
>
> /dps

--
Athel -- French and British, living mainly in England until 1987.

Re: hard or tough

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Subject: Re: hard or tough
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 by: CDB - Mon, 1 Aug 2022 11:30 UTC

On 7/31/2022 11:18 PM, Peter Moylan wrote:
> arthurvv vart wrote:

>> And then, is glass that doesn't break easily hard or tough? I
>> think glass is hard and that's why it breaks. It is not malleable.

> I had to learn these distinctions when I was studying a subject
> called Engineering Materials. (The laboratory work included using
> something called a hardness tester.) I have forgotten much of it,
> which suggests that the technical definitions didn't really make it
> into everyday language.

> The main distinction is that between elastic and plastic materials.
> An elastic material, for example hard steel, will deform when a force
> is applied, but then will bounce back when the force is removed. A
> plastic material, for example tin, exhibits a permanent change in
> shape when a force is applied.

> A related but different distinction is that between ductile and
> brittle, and that relates to the behaviour when a large force is
> applied, enough to do damage. A ductile material deforms before it
> breaks. A brittle material resists moderate forces, but enough force
> causes it to fail catastrophically by breaking.

> Tough is, in a way, the opposite of brittle. A tough material
> survives even after being deformed.

> Glass is a strange intermediate case, because its resistance to
> force depends on the rate at which the force is applied. A slow but
> steady force will cause it to flow, because glass is actually a very
> viscous liquid. A rapidly applied force will, however, make it behave
> as a brittle material.

Just like Silly Putty (TM), but with more bleeding.

Re: hard or tough

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 by: Jerry Friedman - Mon, 1 Aug 2022 12:28 UTC

On Sunday, July 31, 2022 at 9:18:45 PM UTC-6, Peter Moylan wrote:
> On 01/08/22 10:15, arthurvv vart wrote:
>
> > And then, is glass that doesn't break easily hard or tough? I think
> > glass is hard and that's why it breaks. It is not malleable.
> I had to learn these distinctions when I was studying a subject called
> Engineering Materials. (The laboratory work included using something
> called a hardness tester.) I have forgotten much of it, which suggests
> that the technical definitions didn't really make it into everyday language.

Technically, hardness is resistance to scratching and scraping.

> The main distinction is that between elastic and plastic materials. An
> elastic material, for example hard steel, will deform when a force is
> applied, but then will bounce back when the force is removed. A plastic
> material, for example tin, exhibits a permanent change in shape when a
> force is applied.

This could use the term "elastic limit" (the strain beyond which it won't
bounce back). Heck, we could even do "stress" (force per area) and
"strain" (deformation as a percentage of the original dimension).

> A related but different distinction is that between ductile and brittle,
> and that relates to the behaviour when a large force is applied, enough
> to do damage. A ductile material deforms before it breaks.

Ductile or malleable, depending on whether the stress is tensile or
compressive.

> A brittle
> material resists moderate forces, but enough force causes it to fail
> catastrophically by breaking.
>
> Tough is, in a way, the opposite of brittle. A tough material survives
> even after being deformed.

It has a greater ultimate strength, which is the stress that causes it to
break.

> Glass is a strange intermediate case, because its resistance to force
> depends on the rate at which the force is applied. A slow but steady
> force will cause it to flow, because glass is actually a very viscous
> liquid. A rapidly applied force will, however, make it behave as a
> brittle material.

Not according to this:

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/fact-fiction-glass-liquid/

--
Jerry Friedman

Re: hard or tough

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 by: Kerr-Mudd, John - Mon, 1 Aug 2022 12:58 UTC

On Mon, 1 Aug 2022 07:30:07 -0400
CDB <bellemarecd@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 7/31/2022 11:18 PM, Peter Moylan wrote:
> > arthurvv vart wrote:
>
> >> And then, is glass that doesn't break easily hard or tough? I
> >> think glass is hard and that's why it breaks. It is not malleable.
>
> > I had to learn these distinctions when I was studying a subject
> > called Engineering Materials. (The laboratory work included using
> > something called a hardness tester.) I have forgotten much of it,
> > which suggests that the technical definitions didn't really make it
> > into everyday language.
>
> > The main distinction is that between elastic and plastic materials.
> > An elastic material, for example hard steel, will deform when a force
> > is applied, but then will bounce back when the force is removed. A
> > plastic material, for example tin, exhibits a permanent change in
> > shape when a force is applied.
>
> > A related but different distinction is that between ductile and
> > brittle, and that relates to the behaviour when a large force is
> > applied, enough to do damage. A ductile material deforms before it
> > breaks. A brittle material resists moderate forces, but enough force
> > causes it to fail catastrophically by breaking.
>
> > Tough is, in a way, the opposite of brittle. A tough material
> > survives even after being deformed.
>
> > Glass is a strange intermediate case, because its resistance to
> > force depends on the rate at which the force is applied. A slow but
> > steady force will cause it to flow, because glass is actually a very
> > viscous liquid. A rapidly applied force will, however, make it behave
> > as a brittle material.
>
> Just like Silly Putty (TM), but with more bleeding.
>
>

Try Also: Custard powder (aka corn starch) & a little water has it's own
name, but not known to me prior to looking at

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-Newtonian_fluid#Oobleck

--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.

Re: hard or tough

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 by: Peter T. Daniels - Mon, 1 Aug 2022 12:59 UTC

On Sunday, July 31, 2022 at 8:32:31 PM UTC-4, Tony Cooper wrote:

> Glass is hard, but if it does not break when dropped it is only
> because it landed in such a way that it did not break. Or because it
> did not land on a hard surface.

You must have never had the Corning Glass Works tour.

Or heard of bullet-proof glass. The word used is "tough."

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 by: Peter T. Daniels - Mon, 1 Aug 2022 13:01 UTC

On Monday, August 1, 2022 at 5:07:38 AM UTC-4, snide...@gmail.com wrote:

> Also, brittle is different than hard, although brittle materials are
> typically hard. [I'm hedging here; I can't think of a brittle material
> that isn't hard.]

Peanut brittle? Pralines?

Mmm, pralines.

Re: hard or tough

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 by: Ken Blake - Mon, 1 Aug 2022 13:46 UTC

On Mon, 01 Aug 2022 02:07:30 -0700, Snidely <snidely.too@gmail.com>
wrote:

>Also, brittle is different than hard, although brittle materials are
>typically hard. [I'm hedging here; I can't think of a brittle material
>that isn't hard.]

Peanut brittle?

Re: hard or tough

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 by: Paul Carmichael - Mon, 1 Aug 2022 14:36 UTC

El Sun, 31 Jul 2022 20:32:24 -0400, Tony Cooper escribió:

> Glass is hard, but if it does not break when dropped it is only because
> it landed in such a way that it did not break. Or because it did not
> land on a hard surface.

Or it's been tempered and didn't land on an edge.

--
Paul.

https://paulc.es/elpatio

Re: hard or tough

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 by: Paul Carmichael - Mon, 1 Aug 2022 14:38 UTC

El Mon, 01 Aug 2022 02:07:30 -0700, Snidely escribió:

> Cracks also propagate differently in glass than in crystalline
> materials, where the cleavage lines follow distinct boundaries. Cracks
> in glass can go in weird directions, or be long and nearly straight.
>

Unless it is tempered (aka toughened) glass.

--
Paul.

https://paulc.es/elpatio

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 by: lar3ryca - Mon, 1 Aug 2022 16:57 UTC

On 2022-08-01 06:58, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:
> On Mon, 1 Aug 2022 07:30:07 -0400
> CDB <bellemarecd@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On 7/31/2022 11:18 PM, Peter Moylan wrote:
>>> arthurvv vart wrote:
>>
>>>> And then, is glass that doesn't break easily hard or tough? I
>>>> think glass is hard and that's why it breaks. It is not malleable.
>>
>>> I had to learn these distinctions when I was studying a subject
>>> called Engineering Materials. (The laboratory work included using
>>> something called a hardness tester.) I have forgotten much of it,
>>> which suggests that the technical definitions didn't really make it
>>> into everyday language.
>>
>>> The main distinction is that between elastic and plastic materials.
>>> An elastic material, for example hard steel, will deform when a force
>>> is applied, but then will bounce back when the force is removed. A
>>> plastic material, for example tin, exhibits a permanent change in
>>> shape when a force is applied.
>>
>>> A related but different distinction is that between ductile and
>>> brittle, and that relates to the behaviour when a large force is
>>> applied, enough to do damage. A ductile material deforms before it
>>> breaks. A brittle material resists moderate forces, but enough force
>>> causes it to fail catastrophically by breaking.
>>
>>> Tough is, in a way, the opposite of brittle. A tough material
>>> survives even after being deformed.
>>
>>> Glass is a strange intermediate case, because its resistance to
>>> force depends on the rate at which the force is applied. A slow but
>>> steady force will cause it to flow, because glass is actually a very
>>> viscous liquid. A rapidly applied force will, however, make it behave
>>> as a brittle material.
>>
>> Just like Silly Putty (TM), but with more bleeding.
>>
>>
>
> Try Also: Custard powder (aka corn starch) & a little water has it's own
> name, but not known to me prior to looking at
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-Newtonian_fluid#Oobleck

Ahh... one of my favourite words; 'thixotropic'.

Shake and shake the ketchup bottle.
First comes none, and then a lot'le.
- Ogden Nash (I think).

--
The problem with the gene pool is that there is no lifeguard.

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From: rich.ulr...@comcast.net (Rich Ulrich)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: hard or tough
Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2022 13:58:42 -0400
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 by: Rich Ulrich - Mon, 1 Aug 2022 17:58 UTC

On Mon, 1 Aug 2022 13:18:39 +1000, Peter Moylan
<peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:

>On 01/08/22 10:15, arthurvv vart wrote:
>
>> And then, is glass that doesn't break easily hard or tough? I think
>> glass is hard and that's why it breaks. It is not malleable.
>
>I had to learn these distinctions when I was studying a subject called
>Engineering Materials. (The laboratory work included using something
>called a hardness tester.) I have forgotten much of it, which suggests
>that the technical definitions didn't really make it into everyday language.
>
>The main distinction is that between elastic and plastic materials. An
>elastic material, for example hard steel, will deform when a force is
>applied, but then will bounce back when the force is removed. A plastic
>material, for example tin, exhibits a permanent change in shape when a
>force is applied.
>
>A related but different distinction is that between ductile and brittle,
>and that relates to the behaviour when a large force is applied, enough
>to do damage. A ductile material deforms before it breaks. A brittle
>material resists moderate forces, but enough force causes it to fail
>catastrophically by breaking.
>
>Tough is, in a way, the opposite of brittle. A tough material survives
>even after being deformed.
>
>Glass is a strange intermediate case, because its resistance to force
>depends on the rate at which the force is applied. A slow but steady
>force will cause it to flow, because glass is actually a very viscous
>liquid. A rapidly applied force will, however, make it behave as a
>brittle material.

Didn't old glass windows eventually 'sag' so they were thinner
at the top? I read that more than once in books, but the lack of
any recent mention makes me wonder if that was a myth.

A stranger thing about glass is that glass can be cut with scissors
if it is done under water. I think I tried that when I read of it
decades ago, and the cutting did not have great precision.
Google gives many hits, including videos that I did not look at.

--
Rich Ulrich

Re: hard or tough

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GNU: Terry Pratchett
 by: Kerr-Mudd, John - Mon, 1 Aug 2022 18:50 UTC

On Mon, 1 Aug 2022 10:57:59 -0600
lar3ryca <larry@invalid.ca> wrote:

> On 2022-08-01 06:58, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:
> > On Mon, 1 Aug 2022 07:30:07 -0400
> > CDB <bellemarecd@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> On 7/31/2022 11:18 PM, Peter Moylan wrote:
> >>> arthurvv vart wrote:
> >>
> >>>> And then, is glass that doesn't break easily hard or tough? I
> >>>> think glass is hard and that's why it breaks. It is not malleable.
> >>
> >>> I had to learn these distinctions when I was studying a subject
> >>> called Engineering Materials. (The laboratory work included using
> >>> something called a hardness tester.) I have forgotten much of it,
> >>> which suggests that the technical definitions didn't really make it
> >>> into everyday language.
> >>
> >>> The main distinction is that between elastic and plastic materials.
> >>> An elastic material, for example hard steel, will deform when a force
> >>> is applied, but then will bounce back when the force is removed. A
> >>> plastic material, for example tin, exhibits a permanent change in
> >>> shape when a force is applied.
> >>
> >>> A related but different distinction is that between ductile and
> >>> brittle, and that relates to the behaviour when a large force is
> >>> applied, enough to do damage. A ductile material deforms before it
> >>> breaks. A brittle material resists moderate forces, but enough force
> >>> causes it to fail catastrophically by breaking.
> >>
> >>> Tough is, in a way, the opposite of brittle. A tough material
> >>> survives even after being deformed.
> >>
> >>> Glass is a strange intermediate case, because its resistance to
> >>> force depends on the rate at which the force is applied. A slow but
> >>> steady force will cause it to flow, because glass is actually a very
> >>> viscous liquid. A rapidly applied force will, however, make it behave
> >>> as a brittle material.
> >>
> >> Just like Silly Putty (TM), but with more bleeding.
> >>
> >>
> >
> > Try Also: Custard powder (aka corn starch) & a little water has it's own
> > name, but not known to me prior to looking at
> >
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-Newtonian_fluid#Oobleck
>
> Ahh... one of my favourite words; 'thixotropic'.

I knew that one, but
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rheopecty
is new to me.

Seems oobleck is a dilettante (sp?). Some dissolute types about.


>
> Shake and shake the ketchup bottle.
> First comes none, and then a lot'le.
> - Ogden Nash (I think).
>
> --
> The problem with the gene pool is that there is no lifeguard.

--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.

Re: hard or tough

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From: acorn...@imm.cnrs.fr (Athel Cornish-Bowden)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: hard or tough
Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2022 20:51:11 +0200
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 by: Athel Cornish-Bowden - Mon, 1 Aug 2022 18:51 UTC

On 2022-08-01 17:58:42 +0000, Rich Ulrich said:

[ … ]

> Didn't old glass windows eventually 'sag' so they were thinner
> at the top? I read that more than once in books, but the lack of
> any recent mention makes me wonder if that was a myth.

From what I've read it is indeed a myth. Suppose you're bulding a
cathedral in the Middle Ages and you have to instal a large sheet of
glass made by the techniques of the time, so not uniformly thick. Do
you put the thickest part at the bottom or at the top?

--
Athel -- French and British, living mainly in England until 1987.

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 by: Paul Carmichael - Mon, 1 Aug 2022 18:57 UTC

El Mon, 01 Aug 2022 20:51:11 +0200, Athel Cornish-Bowden escribió:

> On 2022-08-01 17:58:42 +0000, Rich Ulrich said:
>
> [ … ]
>
>> Didn't old glass windows eventually 'sag' so they were thinner at the
>> top? I read that more than once in books, but the lack of any recent
>> mention makes me wonder if that was a myth.
>
> From what I've read it is indeed a myth. Suppose you're bulding a
> cathedral in the Middle Ages and you have to instal a large sheet of
> glass made by the techniques of the time, so not uniformly thick. Do you
> put the thickest part at the bottom or at the top?

Except of course, there were no large sheets of glass back then. It was
all diddy bits made by hand. I used to make/repair leaded lights for a
living.

--
Paul.

https://paulc.es/elpatio

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Subject: Re: hard or tough
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 by: Kerr-Mudd, John - Mon, 1 Aug 2022 19:02 UTC

On Mon, 01 Aug 2022 13:58:42 -0400
Rich Ulrich <rich.ulrich@comcast.net> wrote:

> On Mon, 1 Aug 2022 13:18:39 +1000, Peter Moylan
> <peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
>
> >On 01/08/22 10:15, arthurvv vart wrote:
> >
> >> And then, is glass that doesn't break easily hard or tough? I think
> >> glass is hard and that's why it breaks. It is not malleable.
> >
> >I had to learn these distinctions when I was studying a subject called
> >Engineering Materials. (The laboratory work included using something
> >called a hardness tester.) I have forgotten much of it, which suggests
> >that the technical definitions didn't really make it into everyday language.
> >
> >The main distinction is that between elastic and plastic materials. An
> >elastic material, for example hard steel, will deform when a force is
> >applied, but then will bounce back when the force is removed. A plastic
> >material, for example tin, exhibits a permanent change in shape when a
> >force is applied.
> >
> >A related but different distinction is that between ductile and brittle,
> >and that relates to the behaviour when a large force is applied, enough
> >to do damage. A ductile material deforms before it breaks. A brittle
> >material resists moderate forces, but enough force causes it to fail
> >catastrophically by breaking.
> >
> >Tough is, in a way, the opposite of brittle. A tough material survives
> >even after being deformed.
> >
> >Glass is a strange intermediate case, because its resistance to force
> >depends on the rate at which the force is applied. A slow but steady
> >force will cause it to flow, because glass is actually a very viscous
> >liquid. A rapidly applied force will, however, make it behave as a
> >brittle material.
>
> Didn't old glass windows eventually 'sag' so they were thinner
> at the top? I read that more than once in books, but the lack of
> any recent mention makes me wonder if that was a myth.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glass#Reputed_flow
That's what it says; medieval glaziers just put them in thick edge down.
>
> A stranger thing about glass is that glass can be cut with scissors
> if it is done under water. I think I tried that when I read of it
> decades ago, and the cutting did not have great precision.
> Google gives many hits, including videos that I did not look at.
>
> --
> Rich Ulrich

--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.

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 by: Sam Plusnet - Mon, 1 Aug 2022 19:06 UTC

On 01-Aug-22 4:18, Peter Moylan wrote:
> Glass is a strange intermediate case, because its resistance to force
> depends on the rate at which the force is applied. A slow but steady
> force will cause it to flow, because glass is actually a very viscous
> liquid. A rapidly applied force will, however, make it behave as a
> brittle material.

You remind me of the stories about glass in 17th century windows being
thicker at the bottom than at the top.

--
Sam Plusnet

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 by: Sam Plusnet - Mon, 1 Aug 2022 19:09 UTC

On 01-Aug-22 17:57, lar3ryca wrote:

>
> Shake and shake the ketchup bottle.
> First comes none, and then a lot'le.
>   - Ogden Nash (I think).
>
Try some on your axolotl.

--
Sam Plusnet

Re: hard or tough

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 by: Peter T. Daniels - Mon, 1 Aug 2022 20:23 UTC

On Monday, August 1, 2022 at 2:51:18 PM UTC-4, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> On 2022-08-01 17:58:42 +0000, Rich Ulrich said:

> > Didn't old glass windows eventually 'sag' so they were thinner
> > at the top? I read that more than once in books, but the lack of
> > any recent mention makes me wonder if that was a myth.
>
> From what I've read it is indeed a myth. Suppose you're bulding a
> cathedral in the Middle Ages and you have to instal a large sheet of
> glass made by the techniques of the time, so not uniformly thick. Do
> you put the thickest part at the bottom or at the top?

FSVO "large."

Point to a "large sheet of glass" in a medieval cathedral?

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Subject: Re: hard or tough
Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2022 14:27:25 -0600
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 by: lar3ryca - Mon, 1 Aug 2022 20:27 UTC

On 2022-08-01 13:09, Sam Plusnet wrote:
> On 01-Aug-22 17:57, lar3ryca wrote:
>
>>
>> Shake and shake the ketchup bottle.
>> First comes none, and then a lot'le.
>>    - Ogden Nash (I think).
>>
> Try some on your axolotl.

I wandered lonely as a clod,
Just picking up old rags and bottles,
When onward on my way I plod,
I saw a host of axolotls;
Beside the lake, beneath the trees,
A sight to make a man’s blood freeze.

Some had handles, some were plain;
They came in blue, red pink, and green.
A few were orange in the main;
The damnedest sight I’ve ever seen.
The females gave a sprightly glance;
The male ones all wore knee-length pants.

Now oft, when on the couch I lie,
The doctor asks me what I see.
They flash upon my inward eye
And make me laugh in fiendish glee.
I find my solace then in bottles,
And I forget them axolotls.

--
Foreploy (v): Any misrepresentation about yourself for the purpose of
getting laid.

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Subject: Re: hard or tough
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 by: Richard Heathfield - Mon, 1 Aug 2022 21:54 UTC

On 01/08/2022 9:27 pm, lar3ryca wrote:
> On 2022-08-01 13:09, Sam Plusnet wrote:
>> On 01-Aug-22 17:57, lar3ryca wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Shake and shake the ketchup bottle.
>>> First comes none, and then a lot'le.
>>>    - Ogden Nash (I think).
>>>
>> Try some on your axolotl.
>
> I wandered lonely as a clod,
> Just picking up old rags and bottles,
> When onward on my way I plod,
> I saw a host of axolotls;
> Beside the lake, beneath the trees,
> A sight to make a man’s blood freeze.
>
> Some had handles, some were plain;
> They came in blue, red pink, and green.
> A few were orange in the main;
> The damnedest sight I’ve ever seen.
> The females gave a sprightly glance;
> The male ones all wore knee-length pants.
>
> Now oft, when on the couch I lie,
> The doctor asks me what I see.
> They flash upon my inward eye
> And make me laugh in fiendish glee.
> I find my solace then in bottles,
> And I forget them axolotls.
>

Continuous as the stars that stottle
And twinkle on the milky crottle,
They stretched in never-ending fottle
Along the margin of a tottle:
Ten thousand saw I a' a glo'al,
Tossing their heads in sprightly dottle.

--
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
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interests / alt.usage.english / hard or tough

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