On Thu, 28 Jul 2022 09:47:57 -0700 (PDT),
Jerry Friedman <jerry_friedman@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Wednesday, July 27, 2022 at 6:27:05 PM UTC-6, Tony Cooper wrote:
> > On Wed, 27 Jul 2022 16:20:43 -0700 (PDT), Jerry Friedman
> > <jerry_f...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > >On Wednesday, July 27, 2022 at 12:05:03 PM UTC-6, Ted Heise wrote:
> > >> On Wed, 27 Jul 2022 13:11:28 -0400,
> > >> Tony Cooper <tonyco...@gmail.com> wrote:

> > >> > "In film sessions, sources say it was customary for
> > >> > Cambage to call out teammates, accusing them of looking
> > >> > her off and not targeting her.

> > >> In sports, especially American football, to mislead an
> > >> opponent with one's eyes as to one's intentions in a given
> > >> play. A noun or pronoun can be used between "look" and
> > >> "off."

> > >So it's the same thing in basketball as in football, but in
> > >football you look your opponents off, and in basketball you
> > >look your teammate off.
> ...
>
> > The article doesn't go into detail, but it's my impression
> > that Cambage's complaint was that the teammates who were
> > "looking her off" were ignoring her. She feels slighted by
> > this.
> >
> > The American football reference is to deliberate misdirection.
> > There's no slight involved.
>
> The basketball reference is also to misdirection.

I'm not so sure. If that were the case, they would have been
misdirecting defenders and the "her" would have referred to one of
them rather than Cambage. The quote seems to use "her" to refer
to Cambage and not a defender, though I suppose it could have been
meant two different ways in the same sentence.

--
Ted Heise <theise@panix.com> West Lafayette, IN, USA

On Thursday, July 28, 2022 at 12:28:08 PM UTC-6, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> On 2022-07-28 16:23:06 +0000, Ken Blake said:

[first EVER European champion of women's golf croquet]

> > A Google search tells me that Begoña Elzaburu seems to be Spanish.
> > I've never seen the name "Elzaburu" before. I wonder if perhaps
> > "Elzaburu" is Spanish (Catalan? Basque?) variation of "Elizabeth."
> > Does anyone here know.

> My guess was that it was Basque, but apparently it's a Spanish noble
> name.
....

Your guess was right. It's a place in Navarre.

https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elzaburu

By the way, Ken, the usual Spanish version of "Elizabeth" is "Isabel". The
current Queen of the UK etc. is Isabel II.

--
Jerry Friedman

On Thu, 28 Jul 2022 09:47:57 -0700 (PDT), Jerry Friedman
<jerry_friedman@yahoo.com> wrote:

>On Wednesday, July 27, 2022 at 6:27:05 PM UTC-6, Tony Cooper wrote:
>> On Wed, 27 Jul 2022 16:20:43 -0700 (PDT), Jerry Friedman
>> <jerry_f...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>> >On Wednesday, July 27, 2022 at 12:05:03 PM UTC-6, Ted Heise wrote:
>> >> On Wed, 27 Jul 2022 13:11:28 -0400,
>> >> Tony Cooper <tonyco...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> > In sports news (I know I have everyone's attention when I lead
>> >> > with that), _Sports Illustrated_ reported that the Los Angeles
>> >> > Sparks are parting ways with Center Liz Cambage. The Sparks, a
>> >> > Women's National Basketball Association (WNBA) team, stated
>> >> > that Liz is not a "team player" and SI wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> > "In film sessions, sources say it was customary for Cambage to
>> >> > call out teammates, accusing them of looking her off and not
>> >> > targeting her. Teammates would counter that she?s not sealing
>> >> > in the post and seldom gets back on defense when a turnover
>> >> > occurs. It was a conundrum that went unresolved."
>> >> >
>> >> > I follow sports enough to be able to understand sportese, but
>> >> > "looking her off" is a new one on me. My assumption is that it
>> >> > means "ignoring her" and not passing her the ball.
>> >
>> >> I'm familiar with it from American football. Good pass defenders
>> >> often read the quarterback's eyes to see where he is planning to
>> >> throw the ball. That gives them a jump start on which receiver to
>> >> run toward. Good quarterbacks can fake out the defenders by first
>> >> looking at a different receiver than intended, usually called
>> >> "looking them off."
>> >>
>> >> In sports, especially American football, to mislead an opponent
>> >> with one's eyes as to one's intentions in a given play. A noun
>> >> or pronoun can be used between "look" and "off."
>> >>
>> >> https://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/look+him+off
>> >>
>> >> The usage you described is also new to me, but I'mn guessing it's
>> >> been adapted from the football use.
>> >
>> >So it's the same thing in basketball as in football, but in football
>> >you look your opponents off, and in basketball you look your
>> >teammate off.
>...
>
>> The article doesn't go into detail, but it's my impression that
>> Cambage's complaint was that the teammates who were "looking her off"
>> were ignoring her. She feels slighted by this.
>>
>> The American football reference is to deliberate misdirection. There's
>> no slight involved.
>
>The basketball reference is also to misdirection. And if a football player
>were consistently the one the quarterback looked at deceptively instead
>getting the pass, he might feel slighted for the same reason as the
>basketball player.

Not really. For the misdirection to be effective, the quarterback has
to apparantly direct his attention to an eligible receiver with sure
hands who is routinely passed to. Directing the look at a player who
is seldom the target is not going to fool the defense.

>
>It's possible that Cambage was saying her teammates were making it
>clear that they were deliberately slighting her, but also possible that
>they just thought giving her the ball was a bad idea.

I can't agree with that. Cambage is a known scorer. She holds WNBA
the single-game high scoring record. Her career point-per-game
average is 15.8. She was the leading scorer in the 2016 Olympics.

I think the reason that her teammates slight her is that they don't
like her and that she's a toxic element on the team. They don't want
her to do well. The Sparks released her from her contract. Teams
don't release players with stats like hers unless there's a
significent off-court problem.

--

Tony Cooper - Orlando Florida

I read and post to this group as a form of entertainment.

On 28-Jul-22 2:32, Richard Heathfield wrote:
> On 28/07/2022 2:16 am, Sam Plusnet wrote:
>> On 28-Jul-22 0:51, Tony Cooper wrote:
>>
>>> On the subject of sports news, I notice that the World Croquet
>>> Federation has announced that  Begoña Elzaburu was the winner of the
>>> 2022 European Women's GC Championship saying that it was "the first
>>> ever Woman's European Golf Croquet Championship" and took place in
>>> Latvia.
>>>
>>> What does "ever" contribute to the meaning of that statement?  Is
>>> there a difference between the "first" such championship and the
>>> "first ever" such championship?
>>
>> "It was the first Woman's European Golf Croquet Championship - period!"
>>
>> (any improvement?)
>
> You can improve it by losing the bang, dropping the period in favour of
> a full stop, and giving the period a free one-way ticket back home.

At school, we would sometimes have a free period. It seemed a pity to
not finally find a use for it.

P.S. The BrE equivalent of "period!", used in that way, might be
"End of!"

--
Sam Plusnet

On Thu, 28 Jul 2022, at 10:18:41, Ken Blake posted:
>On Thu, 28 Jul 2022 18:03:38 +0200, Athel Cornish-Bowden
>>On 2022-07-28 15:26:15 +0000, Jerry Friedman said:
>>> On Thursday, July 28, 2022 at 6:45:51 AM UTC-6, Quinn C wrote:
>>>> * Tony Cooper:
>>>>> On the subject of sports news, I notice that the World Croquet> >
>>>>> Federation has announced that Bego?a Elzaburu was the winner of the> >
>>>>> 2022 European Women's GC Championship saying that it was "the first> >
>>>>> ever Woman's European Golf Croquet Championship" and took place in> >
>>>>> Latvia.> >> > What does "ever" contribute to the meaning of that
>>>>> statement? Is> > there a difference between the "first" such
>>>>> championship and the> > "first ever" such championship?
>>>
>>>> Emphasizing that it's not just the first under that name, but the
>>>> first> of its kind?
>>> Or just that it's the first and therefore exciting, so you put in a
>>>redundant
>>> "ever" to make sure people don't miss "first"? Not that I'd do it.
>>
>>Writing (and especially saying) "first ever" rather than "first" is
>>very common. Yes, the "ever" is redundant, but I can think of worse
>>sins.
>
>You mean "Thou shalt not say 'first ever'" is not the eighth deadly
>sin?

If you say that something was the first XYZ Championship, you are
implying that there was, or will be, a second and a third. If you say
that something was the first ever XYZ Championship, you are not
promising anything about any subsequent one; the excitement is that it
has happened at all; which is almost, but not quite, how Jerry commented
on that phrasing.
--
Paul

In message <25r2eh5g03ruj3q1b4ir0d47qur482425m@4ax.com> Tony Cooper <tonycooper214@gmail.com> wrote:
> In sports news (I know I have everyone's attention when I lead with
> that), _Sports Illustrated_ reported that the Los Angeles Sparks are
> parting ways with Center Liz Cambage. The Sparks, a Women's National
> Basketball Association (WNBA) team, stated that Liz is not a "team
> player" and SI wrote:

> "In film sessions, sources say it was customary for Cambage to call
> out teammates, accusing them of looking her off and not targeting her.
> Teammates would counter that she’s not sealing in the post and seldom
> gets back on defense when a turnover occurs. It was a conundrum that
> went unresolved."

> I follow sports enough to be able to understand sportese, but "looking
> her off" is a new one on me. My assumption is that it means "ignoring
> her" and not passing her the ball.

I know what it means in NFL football, I don't know how it applies in
basketball though.

In football when a quarterback looks at receiver A, then looks at receiver
B and throws the ball to receiver A, that is 'looking off' and is a
move to deceive the defenders, who mostly watch the quarterback to see
where the ball will be going.

I'm not sure how that would apply to teammates in Basketball unless they
are looking at her and passing the ball to another player to ... piss
her off?

--
🎼We all live in an Eldrich Horror's dream
an Eldrich Horror's dream
an Eldrich Horror's dream 🎵

In message <0iGVHfONLc4iFAmC@wolff.co.uk> Paul Wolff <bounceme@thiswontwork.wolff.co.uk> wrote:
> On Wed, 27 Jul 2022, at 14:23:01, Tony Cooper posted:
>>Ms Cambage was lacking in respect for her teammates. The article also
>>reports that she called Nigerian players "monkeys" and told them to go
>>back to their third-world country. That did not go over well with
>>Sparks players Chiney and Nneka Ogwumike who are of Nigerian descent.

> Another curiosity. In what way is the cluster "Nn" pronounced
> differently from "N" at the start of a word of Nigerian origin? I knew a
> Nigerian whose name began with 'Mn', which I could pronounce quite
> easily, but a doubling of 'N' is harder.

Perhaps N'neka?

But often double consonants are used to indicate a modification to the
pronunciation of a vowel, though in English it is usually the preceding
vowel (ie hoping vs hopping).

--
My own people are trying to kill me? It's so French.

In message <1vh3ehdv41ik836log9qf66qmlnfq2lehf@4ax.com> Tony Cooper <tonycooper214@gmail.com> wrote:
> On the subject of sports news, I notice that the World Croquet
> Federation has announced that Begoña Elzaburu was the winner of the
> 2022 European Women's GC Championship saying that it was "the first
> ever Woman's European Golf Croquet Championship" and took place in
> Latvia.

> What does "ever" contribute to the meaning of that statement? Is
> there a difference between the "first" such championship and the
> "first ever" such championship?

A little bit, in that the sentence could have gone something like "the
first Women's Europeans Golf Croquet Championship since the famous
contested championship riot of 1847." Putting the ever up at the front
tells the ready that there's no further modification to 'first' and that
this was actually the first.

> I am in awe of Begoña Elzaburu. I've played a lot of golf, but can't
> imagine hitting the ball through hoops for 18 holes.

I don't know what Gold Croquet is (is it just croquet?) but I hope it
does not involve holes.

--
Well boys, we got three engines out, we got more holes in us than a
horse trader's mule, the radio is gone and we're leaking fuel and
if we was flying any lower why we'd need sleigh bells on this
thing... but we got one little budge on those Roosskies. At this
height why they might harpoon us but they dang sure ain't gonna
spot us on no radar screen!

In message <jkg2pjFed1oU1@mid.individual.net> Athel Cornish-Bowden <acornish@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:
> On 2022-07-28 16:23:06 +0000, Ken Blake said:

>> On Wed, 27 Jul 2022 19:51:45 -0400, Tony Cooper
>> <tonycooper214@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On the subject of sports news, I notice that the World Croquet
>>> Federation has announced that Begoña Elzaburu was the winner of the
>>> 2022 European Women's GC Championship saying that it was "the first
>>> ever Woman's European Golf Croquet Championship" and took place in
>>> Latvia.
>>
>>
>> A Google search tells me that Begoña Elzaburu seems to be Spanish.
>> I've never seen the name "Elzaburu" before. I wonder if perhaps
>> "Elzaburu" is Spanish (Catalan? Basque?) variation of "Elizabeth."
>> Does anyone here know.

> My guess was that it was Basque, but apparently it's a Spanish noble
> name. The earliest holder of the name that I can find is Francisco
> Elzaburu y Vizcarrondo, who died in 1903
> (https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marquesado_de_las_Claras).

> The only Begoña I ever met was Basque, but it's not especially a Basque name.

Begoña is just Begonia spelt properly.

--
When the chips are down, the buffalo's empty.

In message <c7934167-a9f9-4592-b57a-d85da854d499n@googlegroups.com> Jerry Friedman <jerry_friedman@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Thursday, July 28, 2022 at 12:28:08 PM UTC-6, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>> On 2022-07-28 16:23:06 +0000, Ken Blake said:

> [first EVER European champion of women's golf croquet]

>> > A Google search tells me that Begoña Elzaburu seems to be Spanish.
>> > I've never seen the name "Elzaburu" before. I wonder if perhaps
>> > "Elzaburu" is Spanish (Catalan? Basque?) variation of "Elizabeth."
>> > Does anyone here know.

>> My guess was that it was Basque, but apparently it's a Spanish noble
>> name.
> ...

> Your guess was right. It's a place in Navarre.

> https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elzaburu

> By the way, Ken, the usual Spanish version of "Elizabeth" is "Isabel". The
> current Queen of the UK etc. is Isabel II.

The current Queen of the UK is Brenda!

--
Updated to be PRCE compatible after 400 years: /(bb|[^b]{2})/

On Wednesday, July 27, 2022 at 4:59:59 PM UTC-6, Paul Wolff wrote:
> On Wed, 27 Jul 2022, at 14:23:01, Tony Cooper posted:
....

> >Ms Cambage was lacking in respect for her teammates. The article also
> >reports that she called Nigerian players "monkeys" and told them to go
> >back to their third-world country. That did not go over well with
> >Sparks players Chiney and Nneka Ogwumike who are of Nigerian descent.

> Another curiosity. In what way is the cluster "Nn" pronounced
> differently from "N" at the start of a word of Nigerian origin? I knew a
> Nigerian whose name began with 'Mn', which I could pronounce quite
> easily, but a doubling of 'N' is harder.
....

After a glance at Wikipedia, I think the name is from the Igbo language
and the nn is probably a long or syllabic /n/.

--
Jerry Friedman

On Thursday, July 28, 2022 at 1:20:30 PM UTC-6, Tony Cooper wrote:
> On Thu, 28 Jul 2022 09:47:57 -0700 (PDT), Jerry Friedman
> <jerry_f...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >On Wednesday, July 27, 2022 at 6:27:05 PM UTC-6, Tony Cooper wrote:
> >> On Wed, 27 Jul 2022 16:20:43 -0700 (PDT), Jerry Friedman
> >> <jerry_f...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> >On Wednesday, July 27, 2022 at 12:05:03 PM UTC-6, Ted Heise wrote:
> >> >> On Wed, 27 Jul 2022 13:11:28 -0400,
> >> >> Tony Cooper <tonyco...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >> > In sports news (I know I have everyone's attention when I lead
> >> >> > with that), _Sports Illustrated_ reported that the Los Angeles
> >> >> > Sparks are parting ways with Center Liz Cambage. The Sparks, a
> >> >> > Women's National Basketball Association (WNBA) team, stated
> >> >> > that Liz is not a "team player" and SI wrote:
> >> >> >
> >> >> > "In film sessions, sources say it was customary for Cambage to
> >> >> > call out teammates, accusing them of looking her off and not
> >> >> > targeting her. Teammates would counter that she?s not sealing
> >> >> > in the post and seldom gets back on defense when a turnover
> >> >> > occurs. It was a conundrum that went unresolved."
> >> >> >
> >> >> > I follow sports enough to be able to understand sportese, but
> >> >> > "looking her off" is a new one on me. My assumption is that it
> >> >> > means "ignoring her" and not passing her the ball.
> >> >
> >> >> I'm familiar with it from American football. Good pass defenders
> >> >> often read the quarterback's eyes to see where he is planning to
> >> >> throw the ball. That gives them a jump start on which receiver to
> >> >> run toward. Good quarterbacks can fake out the defenders by first
> >> >> looking at a different receiver than intended, usually called
> >> >> "looking them off."
> >> >>
> >> >> In sports, especially American football, to mislead an opponent
> >> >> with one's eyes as to one's intentions in a given play. A noun
> >> >> or pronoun can be used between "look" and "off."
> >> >>
> >> >> https://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/look+him+off
> >> >>
> >> >> The usage you described is also new to me, but I'mn guessing it's
> >> >> been adapted from the football use.
> >> >
> >> >So it's the same thing in basketball as in football, but in football
> >> >you look your opponents off, and in basketball you look your
> >> >teammate off.
> >...
> >
> >> The article doesn't go into detail, but it's my impression that
> >> Cambage's complaint was that the teammates who were "looking her off"
> >> were ignoring her. She feels slighted by this.
> >>
> >> The American football reference is to deliberate misdirection. There's
> >> no slight involved.
> >
> >The basketball reference is also to misdirection. And if a football player
> >were consistently the one the quarterback looked at deceptively instead
> >getting the pass, he might feel slighted for the same reason as the
> >basketball player.

> Not really. For the misdirection to be effective, the quarterback has
> to apparantly direct his attention to an eligible receiver with sure
> hands who is routinely passed to. Directing the look at a player who
> is seldom the target is not going to fool the defense.

Then he'd feel even more slighted, if it wasn't even being useful by
fooling the defense. But I'm impressed that the defensive backs
covering their man or their zone know which receiver is where, so
they can instantly dismiss the quarterback's look.

But after checking, I think I was wrong about saying the action of
looking someone away was the same in basketball and football. All
the basketball examples I saw were about players (allegedly)
refusing to pass the ball to teammates.

> >It's possible that Cambage was saying her teammates were making it
> >clear that they were deliberately slighting her, but also possible that
> >they just thought giving her the ball was a bad idea.

> I can't agree with that. Cambage is a known scorer. She holds WNBA
> the single-game high scoring record. Her career point-per-game
> average is 15.8. She was the leading scorer in the 2016 Olympics.

OK, I think it's possible that on occasion they occasionally thought
giving her the ball was a bad idea under the circumstances, and she
thought someone with her record should have gotten the ball even
under those circumstances.

> I think the reason that her teammates slight her is that they don't
> like her and that she's a toxic element on the team. They don't want
> her to do well. The Sparks released her from her contract. Teams
> don't release players with stats like hers unless there's a
> significent off-court problem.

No doubt, but I don't know that we know whether they were really
"looking her off" because of her toxic behavior, or her toxic
behavior was partly that she thought they were looking her off
when they were making good decisions.

--
Jerry Friedman

On 29/07/22 01:26, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> On Thursday, July 28, 2022 at 6:45:51 AM UTC-6, Quinn C wrote:
>> * Tony Cooper:

>>> On the subject of sports news, I notice that the World Croquet
>>> Federation has announced that Begońa Elzaburu was the winner of
>>> the 2022 European Women's GC Championship saying that it was "the
>>> first ever Woman's European Golf Croquet Championship" and took
>>> place in Latvia.
>>>
>>> What does "ever" contribute to the meaning of that statement? Is
>>> there a difference between the "first" such championship and the
>>> "first ever" such championship?
>
>> Emphasizing that it's not just the first under that name, but the
>> first of its kind?
>
> Or just that it's the first and therefore exciting, so you put in a
> redundant "ever" to make sure people don't miss "first"? Not that
> I'd do it.

In sports writing, the word "first" is often used in contexts like "the
first game of the season" and "their first win since April". Because of
that, I find "first ever" to be justifiable in the present example.

--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org

On Thu, 28 Jul 2022 18:50:11 -0700 (PDT), Jerry Friedman
<jerry_friedman@yahoo.com> wrote:

>On Thursday, July 28, 2022 at 1:20:30 PM UTC-6, Tony Cooper wrote:
>> On Thu, 28 Jul 2022 09:47:57 -0700 (PDT), Jerry Friedman
>> <jerry_f...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>> >On Wednesday, July 27, 2022 at 6:27:05 PM UTC-6, Tony Cooper wrote:
>> >> On Wed, 27 Jul 2022 16:20:43 -0700 (PDT), Jerry Friedman
>> >> <jerry_f...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >On Wednesday, July 27, 2022 at 12:05:03 PM UTC-6, Ted Heise wrote:
>> >> >> On Wed, 27 Jul 2022 13:11:28 -0400,
>> >> >> Tony Cooper <tonyco...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >> > In sports news (I know I have everyone's attention when I lead
>> >> >> > with that), _Sports Illustrated_ reported that the Los Angeles
>> >> >> > Sparks are parting ways with Center Liz Cambage. The Sparks, a
>> >> >> > Women's National Basketball Association (WNBA) team, stated
>> >> >> > that Liz is not a "team player" and SI wrote:
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > "In film sessions, sources say it was customary for Cambage to
>> >> >> > call out teammates, accusing them of looking her off and not
>> >> >> > targeting her. Teammates would counter that she?s not sealing
>> >> >> > in the post and seldom gets back on defense when a turnover
>> >> >> > occurs. It was a conundrum that went unresolved."
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > I follow sports enough to be able to understand sportese, but
>> >> >> > "looking her off" is a new one on me. My assumption is that it
>> >> >> > means "ignoring her" and not passing her the ball.
>> >> >
>> >> >> I'm familiar with it from American football. Good pass defenders
>> >> >> often read the quarterback's eyes to see where he is planning to
>> >> >> throw the ball. That gives them a jump start on which receiver to
>> >> >> run toward. Good quarterbacks can fake out the defenders by first
>> >> >> looking at a different receiver than intended, usually called
>> >> >> "looking them off."
>> >> >>
>> >> >> In sports, especially American football, to mislead an opponent
>> >> >> with one's eyes as to one's intentions in a given play. A noun
>> >> >> or pronoun can be used between "look" and "off."
>> >> >>
>> >> >> https://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/look+him+off
>> >> >>
>> >> >> The usage you described is also new to me, but I'mn guessing it's
>> >> >> been adapted from the football use.
>> >> >
>> >> >So it's the same thing in basketball as in football, but in football
>> >> >you look your opponents off, and in basketball you look your
>> >> >teammate off.
>> >...
>> >
>> >> The article doesn't go into detail, but it's my impression that
>> >> Cambage's complaint was that the teammates who were "looking her off"
>> >> were ignoring her. She feels slighted by this.
>> >>
>> >> The American football reference is to deliberate misdirection. There's
>> >> no slight involved.
>> >
>> >The basketball reference is also to misdirection. And if a football player
>> >were consistently the one the quarterback looked at deceptively instead
>> >getting the pass, he might feel slighted for the same reason as the
>> >basketball player.
>
>> Not really. For the misdirection to be effective, the quarterback has
>> to apparantly direct his attention to an eligible receiver with sure
>> hands who is routinely passed to. Directing the look at a player who
>> is seldom the target is not going to fool the defense.
>
>Then he'd feel even more slighted, if it wasn't even being useful by
>fooling the defense. But I'm impressed that the defensive backs
>covering their man or their zone know which receiver is where, so
>they can instantly dismiss the quarterback's look.
>
Football is a game where every play is filmed and every player goes
over hours of film on opposing teams and the opposing players that
they will be up against.

Defensive backs know what to expect. They know, going into the game,
who the quarterback's likely targets will be. The quarterback knows
they know this. All the quarterback wants to do in misdirection is to
allow the receiver just a step or two up on the defensive back. Just
to get the defensive back to hesitate for a couple of seconds.

>But after checking, I think I was wrong about saying the action of
>looking someone away was the same in basketball and football. All
>the basketball examples I saw were about players (allegedly)
>refusing to pass the ball to teammates.
>
>> >It's possible that Cambage was saying her teammates were making it
>> >clear that they were deliberately slighting her, but also possible that
>> >they just thought giving her the ball was a bad idea.
>
>> I can't agree with that. Cambage is a known scorer. She holds WNBA
>> the single-game high scoring record. Her career point-per-game
>> average is 15.8. She was the leading scorer in the 2016 Olympics.
>
>OK, I think it's possible that on occasion they occasionally thought
>giving her the ball was a bad idea under the circumstances, and she
>thought someone with her record should have gotten the ball even
>under those circumstances.
>
>> I think the reason that her teammates slight her is that they don't
>> like her and that she's a toxic element on the team. They don't want
>> her to do well. The Sparks released her from her contract. Teams
>> don't release players with stats like hers unless there's a
>> significent off-court problem.
>
>No doubt, but I don't know that we know whether they were really
>"looking her off" because of her toxic behavior, or her toxic
>behavior was partly that she thought they were looking her off
>when they were making good decisions.

You could look her up, you know. Her problems didn't start with her
time with the Sparks. There are several articles about her, and
several instances of conflict with her teammates and management from
demanding another player give her the jersey number she wanted to
complaints about being underpaid despite being the one of the
highest-paid players.

From one of those sources:

"Cambage was a Fisher signing and when he was fired in June her shield
in the organization was gone. Cambage has a history of friction with
teammates in the past, including with the Australian national team,
and Fisher reportedly was warned by Sparks players about those
challenges. He signed her anyway.

Usually, in basketball at all levels, talent wins out — the higher the
level of talent, the higher the level of tolerance for off-putting
behavior. Cambage is unquestionably an elite talent. But there is a
line that can be crossed, and things seem to have gotten there in Los
Angeles.

It led to a contract divorce. And one that was a little messy."

--

Tony Cooper - Orlando Florida

I read and post to this group as a form of entertainment.

On 29/07/22 4:23 am, Ken Blake wrote:
> On Wed, 27 Jul 2022 19:51:45 -0400, Tony Cooper
> <tonycooper214@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On the subject of sports news, I notice that the World Croquet
>> Federation has announced that Begoña Elzaburu was the winner of the
>> 2022 European Women's GC Championship saying that it was "the first
>> ever Woman's European Golf Croquet Championship" and took place in
>> Latvia.
>
>
> A Google search tells me that Begoña Elzaburu seems to be Spanish.
> I've never seen the name "Elzaburu" before. I wonder if perhaps
> "Elzaburu" is Spanish (Catalan? Basque?) variation of "Elizabeth."
> Does anyone here know.

Having not looked at this group for a while, one of the first messages I
see on returning is about Begoña, whom I know.
She was here in NZ for the Women's Golf Croquet World Championship in
2019, when I was the Tournament referee. Last year she was elected to
the World Croquet Federation Management Committee, and we had an email
correspondence a month or two ago.
My recollection is that she is from Madrid.

--brian

--
Wellington
New Zealand

On 2022-07-28 21:45:28 +0000, Lewis said:

> In message <jkg2pjFed1oU1@mid.individual.net> Athel Cornish-Bowden
> <acornish@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:
>> On 2022-07-28 16:23:06 +0000, Ken Blake said:
>
>>> On Wed, 27 Jul 2022 19:51:45 -0400, Tony Cooper
>>> <tonycooper214@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On the subject of sports news, I notice that the World Croquet
>>>> Federation has announced that Begoña Elzaburu was the winner of the
>>>> 2022 European Women's GC Championship saying that it was "the first
>>>> ever Woman's European Golf Croquet Championship" and took place in
>>>> Latvia.
>>>
>>>
>>> A Google search tells me that Begoña Elzaburu seems to be Spanish.
>>> I've never seen the name "Elzaburu" before. I wonder if perhaps
>>> "Elzaburu" is Spanish (Catalan? Basque?) variation of "Elizabeth."
>>> Does anyone here know.
>
>> My guess was that it was Basque, but apparently it's a Spanish noble
>> name. The earliest holder of the name that I can find is Francisco
>> Elzaburu y Vizcarrondo, who died in 1903
>> (https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marquesado_de_las_Claras).
>
>> The only Begoña I ever met was Basque, but it's not especially a Basque name.
>
> Begoña is just Begonia spelt properly.

Well of course. We thought that the Begoña we once knew was called
Begonia until we saw how she wrote it herself.

--
Athel -- French and British, living mainly in England until 1987.

Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> writes:
>At school, we would sometimes have a free period. It seemed a pity to
>not finally find a use for it.

JFL: WRT education, "period" has specific meanings: "one of
the equal parts that the school day is divided into: I have
a history test during first/second/third etc. period on Tuesday",
"Any of the divisions of the academic day.".

On 7/28/2022 8:45 AM, Quinn C wrote:
> Tony Cooper:

>> On the subject of sports news, I notice that the World Croquet
>> Federation has announced that Begoña Elzaburu was the winner of
>> the 2022 European Women's GC Championship saying that it was "the
>> first ever Woman's European Golf Croquet Championship" and took
>> place in Latvia.

>> What does "ever" contribute to the meaning of that statement? Is
>> there a difference between the "first" such championship and the
>> "first ever" such championship?

> Emphasizing that it's not just the first under that name, but the
> first of its kind?

It's ever so first?

On 7/28/2022 1:18 PM, Ken Blake wrote:
> Athel Cornish-Bowden <acornish@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:
>> Jerry Friedman said:
>>> Quinn C wrote:
>>>> * Tony Cooper:

>>>>> On the subject of sports news, I notice that the World
>>>>> Croquet> > Federation has announced that Bego?a Elzaburu was
>>>>> the winner of the> > 2022 European Women's GC Championship
>>>>> saying that it was "the first> > ever Woman's European Golf
>>>>> Croquet Championship" and took place in> > Latvia.> >> > What
>>>>> does "ever" contribute to the meaning of that statement? Is>
>>>>> > there a difference between the "first" such championship
>>>>> and the> > "first ever" such championship?

>>>> Emphasizing that it's not just the first under that name, but
>>>> the first> of its kind?
>>> Or just that it's the first and therefore exciting, so you put in
>>> a redundant "ever" to make sure people don't miss "first"? Not
>>> that I'd do it.

>> Writing (and especially saying) "first ever" rather than "first"
>> is very common. Yes, the "ever" is redundant, but I can think of
>> worse sins.

> You mean "Thou shalt not say 'first ever'" is not the eighth deadly
> sin?

Never shalt thou say it; the negative makes it a different "ever".

--
Does it ever!

On Thursday, July 28, 2022 at 10:29:21 PM UTC-6, Tony Cooper wrote:
> On Thu, 28 Jul 2022 18:50:11 -0700 (PDT), Jerry Friedman
> <jerry_f...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >On Thursday, July 28, 2022 at 1:20:30 PM UTC-6, Tony Cooper wrote:
> >> On Thu, 28 Jul 2022 09:47:57 -0700 (PDT), Jerry Friedman
> >> <jerry_f...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> >On Wednesday, July 27, 2022 at 6:27:05 PM UTC-6, Tony Cooper wrote:
> >> >> On Wed, 27 Jul 2022 16:20:43 -0700 (PDT), Jerry Friedman
> >> >> <jerry_f...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> >On Wednesday, July 27, 2022 at 12:05:03 PM UTC-6, Ted Heise wrote:
> >> >> >> On Wed, 27 Jul 2022 13:11:28 -0400,
> >> >> >> Tony Cooper <tonyco...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >> >> > In sports news (I know I have everyone's attention when I lead
> >> >> >> > with that), _Sports Illustrated_ reported that the Los Angeles
> >> >> >> > Sparks are parting ways with Center Liz Cambage. The Sparks, a
> >> >> >> > Women's National Basketball Association (WNBA) team, stated
> >> >> >> > that Liz is not a "team player" and SI wrote:
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > "In film sessions, sources say it was customary for Cambage to
> >> >> >> > call out teammates, accusing them of looking her off and not
> >> >> >> > targeting her. Teammates would counter that she?s not sealing
> >> >> >> > in the post and seldom gets back on defense when a turnover
> >> >> >> > occurs. It was a conundrum that went unresolved."
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > I follow sports enough to be able to understand sportese, but
> >> >> >> > "looking her off" is a new one on me. My assumption is that it
> >> >> >> > means "ignoring her" and not passing her the ball.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >> I'm familiar with it from American football. Good pass defenders
> >> >> >> often read the quarterback's eyes to see where he is planning to
> >> >> >> throw the ball. That gives them a jump start on which receiver to
> >> >> >> run toward. Good quarterbacks can fake out the defenders by first
> >> >> >> looking at a different receiver than intended, usually called
> >> >> >> "looking them off."
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> In sports, especially American football, to mislead an opponent
> >> >> >> with one's eyes as to one's intentions in a given play. A noun
> >> >> >> or pronoun can be used between "look" and "off."
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> https://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/look+him+off
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> The usage you described is also new to me, but I'mn guessing it's
> >> >> >> been adapted from the football use.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >So it's the same thing in basketball as in football, but in football
> >> >> >you look your opponents off, and in basketball you look your
> >> >> >teammate off.
> >> >...
> >> >
> >> >> The article doesn't go into detail, but it's my impression that
> >> >> Cambage's complaint was that the teammates who were "looking her off"
> >> >> were ignoring her. She feels slighted by this.
> >> >>
> >> >> The American football reference is to deliberate misdirection. There's
> >> >> no slight involved.
> >> >
> >> >The basketball reference is also to misdirection. And if a football player
> >> >were consistently the one the quarterback looked at deceptively instead
> >> >getting the pass, he might feel slighted for the same reason as the
> >> >basketball player.
> >
> >> Not really. For the misdirection to be effective, the quarterback has
> >> to apparantly direct his attention to an eligible receiver with sure
> >> hands who is routinely passed to. Directing the look at a player who
> >> is seldom the target is not going to fool the defense.
> >
> >Then he'd feel even more slighted, if it wasn't even being useful by
> >fooling the defense. But I'm impressed that the defensive backs
> >covering their man or their zone know which receiver is where, so
> >they can instantly dismiss the quarterback's look.
> >
> Football is a game where every play is filmed and every player goes
> over hours of film on opposing teams and the opposing players that
> they will be up against.
>
> Defensive backs know what to expect. They know, going into the game,
> who the quarterback's likely targets will be. The quarterback knows
> they know this.

OK. What impressed me was that in addition to knowing where the
particular receivers they're covering are and where the quarterback is
looking, you were saying they know /which/ other receiver is where.

> All the quarterback wants to do in misdirection is to
> allow the receiver just a step or two up on the defensive back. Just
> to get the defensive back to hesitate for a couple of seconds.

A fraction of a second.

> >But after checking, I think I was wrong about saying the action of
> >looking someone away was the same in basketball and football. All
> >the basketball examples I saw were about players (allegedly)
> >refusing to pass the ball to teammates.
> >
> >> >It's possible that Cambage was saying her teammates were making it
> >> >clear that they were deliberately slighting her, but also possible that
> >> >they just thought giving her the ball was a bad idea.
> >
> >> I can't agree with that. Cambage is a known scorer. She holds WNBA
> >> the single-game high scoring record. Her career point-per-game
> >> average is 15.8. She was the leading scorer in the 2016 Olympics.
> >
> >OK, I think it's possible that on occasion they occasionally thought
> >giving her the ball was a bad idea under the circumstances, and she
> >thought someone with her record should have gotten the ball even
> >under those circumstances.
> >
> >> I think the reason that her teammates slight her is that they don't
> >> like her and that she's a toxic element on the team. They don't want
> >> her to do well. The Sparks released her from her contract. Teams
> >> don't release players with stats like hers unless there's a
> >> significent off-court problem.
> >
> >No doubt, but I don't know that we know whether they were really
> >"looking her off" because of her toxic behavior, or her toxic
> >behavior was partly that she thought they were looking her off
> >when they were making good decisions.

> You could look her up, you know. Her problems didn't start with her
> time with the Sparks. There are several articles about her, and
> several instances of conflict with her teammates and management from
> demanding another player give her the jersey number she wanted to
> complaints about being underpaid despite being the one of the
> highest-paid players.
>
> From one of those sources:
>
> "Cambage was a Fisher signing and when he was fired in June her shield
> in the organization was gone. Cambage has a history of friction with
> teammates in the past, including with the Australian national team,
> and Fisher reportedly was warned by Sparks players about those
> challenges. He signed her anyway.
>
> Usually, in basketball at all levels, talent wins out — the higher the
> level of talent, the higher the level of tolerance for off-putting
> behavior. Cambage is unquestionably an elite talent. But there is a
> line that can be crossed, and things seem to have gotten there in Los
> Angeles.
>
> It led to a contract divorce. And one that was a little messy."

If you look at the paragraph you responded to again, starting with
the first two words, and maybe even at my previous paragraph,
you'll see that I accepted that her behavior was bad. I was saying
we didn't know what the misbehavior was in this case. To put it
another way, we don't have to believe that Cambage's teammates
were looking her off, as she reportedly said. Maybe they were
making good basketball decisions about when to pass to her and
when not to, but she thought a star of her magnitude deserved
the ball more often.

On Friday, July 29, 2022 at 1:00:37 AM UTC-6, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> On 2022-07-28 21:45:28 +0000, Lewis said:
>
> > In message <jkg2pj...@mid.individual.net> Athel Cornish-Bowden
> > <acor...@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:
> >> On 2022-07-28 16:23:06 +0000, Ken Blake said:
> >
> >>> On Wed, 27 Jul 2022 19:51:45 -0400, Tony Cooper
> >>> <tonyco...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> On the subject of sports news, I notice that the World Croquet
> >>>> Federation has announced that Begoña Elzaburu was the winner of the
> >>>> 2022 European Women's GC Championship saying that it was "the first
> >>>> ever Woman's European Golf Croquet Championship" and took place in
> >>>> Latvia.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> A Google search tells me that Begoña Elzaburu seems to be Spanish.
> >>> I've never seen the name "Elzaburu" before. I wonder if perhaps
> >>> "Elzaburu" is Spanish (Catalan? Basque?) variation of "Elizabeth."
> >>> Does anyone here know.
> >
> >> My guess was that it was Basque, but apparently it's a Spanish noble
> >> name. The earliest holder of the name that I can find is Francisco
> >> Elzaburu y Vizcarrondo, who died in 1903
> >> (https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marquesado_de_las_Claras).
> >
> >> The only Begoña I ever met was Basque, but it's not especially a Basque name.
> >
> > Begoña is just Begonia spelt properly.

> Well of course. We thought that the Begoña we once knew was called
> Begonia until we saw how she wrote it herself.

Apparently Begoña was originally a Basque name even if it's more
widespread now. It's the name of a /municipio/ now incorporated into
Bilbao. Wikipedia says, "Due to its association with a church dedicated to
Our Lady of Begoña, the name of the neighbourhood is also a popular
name of women in the Basque Country and also in some other Spanish-
speaking areas." I'm going to guess that the similarity to "begonia"
helps, though I suppose that if Pilar can be a Spanish woman's name
because it's associated with Mary the mother of Jesus, anything can.

Wikipedia says "Begoña" would properly be "Begoina" and is Basque
for "'the lower foot' (of Mount Artxanda)".

Begonias are named after Michel Bégon de la Picardière (1638-1710),
a prominent French administrator (being related to Colbert didn't hurt)
and plant collector.

http://www.biographi.ca/en/bio/begon_de_la_picardiere_michel_3E.html

I can't find anything that looks reliable on the origin of his surname
(stutterer? Germanic "Bego" from Latin "beccus", a recorder?), but since
he was from Blois, on the banks of the Loire, a Basque connection
seems unlikely.

--
Jerry Friedman

On 2022-07-29 12:45:01 +0000, Jerry Friedman said:

> On Friday, July 29, 2022 at 1:00:37 AM UTC-6, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>> On 2022-07-28 21:45:28 +0000, Lewis said:>> > In message
>> <jkg2pj...@mid.individual.net> Athel Cornish-Bowden> >
>> <acor...@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:> >> On 2022-07-28 16:23:06 +0000, Ken
>> Blake said:> >> >>> On Wed, 27 Jul 2022 19:51:45 -0400, Tony Cooper>
>> >>> <tonyco...@gmail.com> wrote:> >>>> >>>> On the subject of sports
>> news, I notice that the World Croquet> >>>> Federation has announced
>> that Begoña Elzaburu was the winner of the> >>>> 2022 European Women's
>> GC Championship saying that it was "the first> >>>> ever Woman's
>> European Golf Croquet Championship" and took place in> >>>> Latvia.>
>> >>>> >>>> >>> A Google search tells me that Begoña Elzaburu seems to be
>> Spanish.> >>> I've never seen the name "Elzaburu" before. I wonder if
>> perhaps> >>> "Elzaburu" is Spanish (Catalan? Basque?) variation of
>> "Elizabeth."> >>> Does anyone here know.> >> >> My guess was that it
>> was Basque, but apparently it's a Spanish noble> >> name. The earliest
>> holder of the name that I can find is Francisco> >> Elzaburu y
>> Vizcarrondo, who died in 1903> >>
>> (https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marquesado_de_las_Claras).> >> >> The
>> only Begoña I ever met was Basque, but it's not especially a Basque
>> name.> >> > Begoña is just Begonia spelt properly.
>
>> Well of course. We thought that the Begoña we once knew was called>
>> Begonia until we saw how she wrote it herself.
>
> Apparently Begoña was originally a Basque name even if it's more
> widespread now. It's the name of a /municipio/ now incorporated into
> Bilbao. Wikipedia says, "Due to its association with a church dedicated to
> Our Lady of Begoña, the name of the neighbourhood is also a popular
> name of women in the Basque Country and also in some other Spanish-
> speaking areas." I'm going to guess that the similarity to "begonia"
> helps, though I suppose that if Pilar can be a Spanish woman's name
> because it's associated with Mary the mother of Jesus, anything can.

Interesting. Thanks. The Begoña that I knew in the 1970s had a very
obviously Basque surname (Etxebarrieta), but it never occurred to me
that Begoña was itself a Basque name.
>
> Wikipedia says "Begoña" would properly be "Begoina" and is Basque
> for "'the lower foot' (of Mount Artxanda)".
> Begonias are named after Michel Bégon de la Picardière (1638-1710),
> a prominent French administrator (being related to Colbert didn't hurt)
> and plant collector.
> http://www.biographi.ca/en/bio/begon_de_la_picardiere_michel_3E.html
>
> I can't find anything that looks reliable on the origin of his surname
> (stutterer? Germanic "Bego" from Latin "beccus", a recorder?), but since
> he was from Blois, on the banks of the Loire, a Basque connection
> seems unlikely.

--
Athel -- French and British, living mainly in England until 1987.

On Friday, July 29, 2022 at 8:45:03 AM UTC-4, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> On Friday, July 29, 2022 at 1:00:37 AM UTC-6, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> > On 2022-07-28 21:45:28 +0000, Lewis said:
> >
> > > In message <jkg2pj...@mid.individual.net> Athel Cornish-Bowden
> > > <acor...@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:
> > >> On 2022-07-28 16:23:06 +0000, Ken Blake said:
> > >
> > >>> On Wed, 27 Jul 2022 19:51:45 -0400, Tony Cooper
> > >>> <tonyco...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>>> On the subject of sports news, I notice that the World Croquet
> > >>>> Federation has announced that Begoña Elzaburu was the winner of the
> > >>>> 2022 European Women's GC Championship saying that it was "the first
> > >>>> ever Woman's European Golf Croquet Championship" and took place in
> > >>>> Latvia.
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> A Google search tells me that Begoña Elzaburu seems to be Spanish.
> > >>> I've never seen the name "Elzaburu" before. I wonder if perhaps
> > >>> "Elzaburu" is Spanish (Catalan? Basque?) variation of "Elizabeth."
> > >>> Does anyone here know.
> > >
> > >> My guess was that it was Basque, but apparently it's a Spanish noble
> > >> name. The earliest holder of the name that I can find is Francisco
> > >> Elzaburu y Vizcarrondo, who died in 1903
> > >> (https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marquesado_de_las_Claras).
> > >
> > >> The only Begoña I ever met was Basque, but it's not especially a Basque name.
> > >
> > > Begoña is just Begonia spelt properly.
>
> > Well of course. We thought that the Begoña we once knew was called
> > Begonia until we saw how she wrote it herself.
> Apparently Begoña was originally a Basque name even if it's more
> widespread now. It's the name of a /municipio/ now incorporated into
> Bilbao. Wikipedia says, "Due to its association with a church dedicated to
> Our Lady of Begoña, the name of the neighbourhood is also a popular
> name of women in the Basque Country and also in some other Spanish-
> speaking areas." I'm going to guess that the similarity to "begonia"
> helps, though I suppose that if Pilar can be a Spanish woman's name
> because it's associated with Mary the mother of Jesus, anything can.
>
> Wikipedia says "Begoña" would properly be "Begoina" and is Basque
> for "'the lower foot' (of Mount Artxanda)".
>
> Begonias are named after Michel Bégon de la Picardière (1638-1710),
> a prominent French administrator (being related to Colbert didn't hurt)
> and plant collector.
>
> http://www.biographi.ca/en/bio/begon_de_la_picardiere_michel_3E.html
>
> I can't find anything that looks reliable on the origin of his surname
> (stutterer? Germanic "Bego" from Latin "beccus", a recorder?), but since
> he was from Blois, on the banks of the Loire, a Basque connection
> seems unlikely.

Making a hybrid of Spanish and French may not have been thought of just recently. I wonder.