On Tuesday, February 2, 2010 at 12:14:34 PM UTC-5, CDB wrote:
> Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
> > Jerry Friedman <jerry_f...@yahoo.com> writes:
> >
> >> I'm interested in the origin of the concept of "race" in the modern
> >> American sense (quite similar, I think, to the sense used in other
> >> countries). Does it predate the use of the word "race" in the late
> >> 18th century (NSOED)? Did Shakespeare, for example, distinguish
> >> between races or just between skin colors?
> >
> > The OED first cites the sense of "a group of several tribes or
> > peoples, regarded as forming a distinct ethnic set" to 1612, so the
> > word was a bit late for Shakespeare, but may have been starting to
> > be heard around the end of his life. The sense that starts to
> > equate it with things like skin color doesn't show up until the
> > eighteenth century.
> >
> > From Google Books, I see "the Negro race" back to 1728, in John
> > Gay's _Fables_. I first see "African Race" in a 1742 translation
> > of Bede's _Ecclesiastical History of the English Nation_. (At the
> > beginning of chapter 5 of book 1, if anybody wants to compare with
> > the Latin.)
> >
> The text reference is "Severus, genere Afer, Tripolitanus, ab oppido
> Lepti". So he was "African by kind" (my favourite word again), and
> "African" could refer to a Libyan from the town of Leptis Magna: not
> Morocco, but I guess still just North Africa.
> >>
> "Genus" is related to notions of birth, but whether that means it's
> the equivalent of ModE "race", for Bede, I have no idea. "African
> by birth" might be another translation.
> >>
> > http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=IjoYAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA156&dq=Bede+Historia+Ecclesiastica
> > &lr=&cd=4#v=onepage&q=Bede%20Historia%20Ecclesiastica&f=false
> > http://preview.tinyurl.com/ykqkog6
> >
> Sorry if this appears twice. It didn't show up on eternalseptember
> and, since it was informational and not terribly silly, I thought I
> would give it a second chance.
>
> I should have added that the "Severus" referred to was the emperor
> Septimius Severus, whose bust, pictured in the Wikiparticle linked to,
> doesn't seem to support the "race" interpretation.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Septimus_Severus

I didn't realize that Lucius Septimius Severus was buried in Yorkshire at the Mausoleum of Hadrian.

On 7/18/2022 12:26 PM, bruce bowser wrote:
> CDB wrote:
>> Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
>>> Jerry Friedman <jerry_f...@yahoo.com> writes:

>>>> I'm interested in the origin of the concept of "race" in the
>>>> modern American sense (quite similar, I think, to the sense
>>>> used in other countries). Does it predate the use of the word
>>>> "race" in the late 18th century (NSOED)? Did Shakespeare, for
>>>> example, distinguish between races or just between skin
>>>> colors?

>>> The OED first cites the sense of "a group of several tribes or
>>> peoples, regarded as forming a distinct ethnic set" to 1612, so
>>> the word was a bit late for Shakespeare, but may have been
>>> starting to be heard around the end of his life. The sense that
>>> starts to equate it with things like skin color doesn't show up
>>> until the eighteenth century.

>>> From Google Books, I see "the Negro race" back to 1728, in John
>>> Gay's _Fables_. I first see "African Race" in a 1742 translation
>>> of Bede's _Ecclesiastical History of the English Nation_. (At
>>> the beginning of chapter 5 of book 1, if anybody wants to compare
>>> with the Latin.)

>> The text reference is "Severus, genere Afer, Tripolitanus, ab
>> oppido Lepti". So he was "African by kind" (my favourite word
>> again), and "African" could refer to a Libyan from the town of
>> Leptis Magna: not Morocco, but I guess still just North Africa.
>> "Genus" is related to notions of birth, but whether that means
>> it's the equivalent of ModE "race", for Bede, I have no idea.
>> "African by birth" might be another translation.

>>> http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=IjoYAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA156&dq=Bede+Historia+Ecclesiastica
>>>
>>>
&lr=&cd=4#v=onepage&q=Bede%20Historia%20Ecclesiastica&f=false
>>> http://preview.tinyurl.com/ykqkog6\

>> Sorry if this appears twice. It didn't show up on eternalseptember
>> and, since it was informational and not terribly silly, I thought
>> I would give it a second chance.

>> I should have added that the "Severus" referred to was the emperor
>> Septimius Severus, whose bust, pictured in the Wikiparticle linked
>> to, doesn't seem to support the "race" interpretation.
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Septimus_Severus

> I didn't realize that Lucius Septimius Severus was buried in
> Yorkshire at the Mausoleum of Hadrian.

Me neither. It was an interesting, though irrelevant, point in the
WParticle that he defeated rivals named Black and White (Niger and
Albinus) to get the gig.

I now think I would translate "genere Afer" as "North African by birth".

--
Ah, the good old days.

On Tuesday, July 19, 2022 at 11:38:51 AM UTC+1, CDB wrote:
> On 7/18/2022 12:26 PM, bruce bowser wrote:
> > CDB wrote:
> >> Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
> >>> Jerry Friedman <jerry_f...@yahoo.com> writes:
>
> >>>> I'm interested in the origin of the concept of "race" in the
> >>>> modern American sense (quite similar, I think, to the sense
> >>>> used in other countries). Does it predate the use of the word
> >>>> "race" in the late 18th century (NSOED)? Did Shakespeare, for
> >>>> example, distinguish between races or just between skin
> >>>> colors?
>
> >>> The OED first cites the sense of "a group of several tribes or
> >>> peoples, regarded as forming a distinct ethnic set" to 1612, so
> >>> the word was a bit late for Shakespeare, but may have been
> >>> starting to be heard around the end of his life. The sense that
> >>> starts to equate it with things like skin color doesn't show up
> >>> until the eighteenth century.
>
> >>> From Google Books, I see "the Negro race" back to 1728, in John
> >>> Gay's _Fables_. I first see "African Race" in a 1742 translation
> >>> of Bede's _Ecclesiastical History of the English Nation_. (At
> >>> the beginning of chapter 5 of book 1, if anybody wants to compare
> >>> with the Latin.)
>
> >> The text reference is "Severus, genere Afer, Tripolitanus, ab
> >> oppido Lepti". So he was "African by kind" (my favourite word
> >> again), and "African" could refer to a Libyan from the town of
> >> Leptis Magna: not Morocco, but I guess still just North Africa.
> >> "Genus" is related to notions of birth, but whether that means
> >> it's the equivalent of ModE "race", for Bede, I have no idea.
> >> "African by birth" might be another translation.
>
> >>> http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=IjoYAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA156&dq=Bede+Historia+Ecclesiastica
> >>>
> >>>
> &lr=&cd=4#v=onepage&q=Bede%20Historia%20Ecclesiastica&f=false
> >>> http://preview.tinyurl.com/ykqkog6\
>
> >> Sorry if this appears twice. It didn't show up on eternalseptember
> >> and, since it was informational and not terribly silly, I thought
> >> I would give it a second chance.
>
> >> I should have added that the "Severus" referred to was the emperor
> >> Septimius Severus, whose bust, pictured in the Wikiparticle linked
> >> to, doesn't seem to support the "race" interpretation.
> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Septimus_Severus
>
> > I didn't realize that Lucius Septimius Severus was buried in
> > Yorkshire at the Mausoleum of Hadrian.
> Me neither. It was an interesting, though irrelevant, point in the
> WParticle that he defeated rivals named Black and White (Niger and
> Albinus) to get the gig.
>
> I now think I would translate "genere Afer" as "North African by birth".
>
> --
> Ah, the good old days.

At least he qualified for "Famous Last Words".

"Be harmonious, enrich the soldiers, scorn all others".

Is a lot better than, "They couldn't hit an elephant at this dist..."

On 19/07/2022 1:30 pm, Lionel Edwards wrote:
> On Tuesday, July 19, 2022 at 11:38:51 AM UTC+1, CDB wrote:
>> On 7/18/2022 12:26 PM, bruce bowser wrote:
>>> CDB wrote:
>>>> Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
>>>>> Jerry Friedman <jerry_f...@yahoo.com> writes:
>>
>>>>>> I'm interested in the origin of the concept of "race" in the
>>>>>> modern American sense (quite similar, I think, to the sense
>>>>>> used in other countries). Does it predate the use of the word
>>>>>> "race" in the late 18th century (NSOED)? Did Shakespeare, for
>>>>>> example, distinguish between races or just between skin
>>>>>> colors?
>>
>>>>> The OED first cites the sense of "a group of several tribes or
>>>>> peoples, regarded as forming a distinct ethnic set" to 1612, so
>>>>> the word was a bit late for Shakespeare, but may have been
>>>>> starting to be heard around the end of his life. The sense that
>>>>> starts to equate it with things like skin color doesn't show up
>>>>> until the eighteenth century.
>>
>>>>> From Google Books, I see "the Negro race" back to 1728, in John
>>>>> Gay's _Fables_. I first see "African Race" in a 1742 translation
>>>>> of Bede's _Ecclesiastical History of the English Nation_. (At
>>>>> the beginning of chapter 5 of book 1, if anybody wants to compare
>>>>> with the Latin.)
>>
>>>> The text reference is "Severus, genere Afer, Tripolitanus, ab
>>>> oppido Lepti". So he was "African by kind" (my favourite word
>>>> again), and "African" could refer to a Libyan from the town of
>>>> Leptis Magna: not Morocco, but I guess still just North Africa.
>>>> "Genus" is related to notions of birth, but whether that means
>>>> it's the equivalent of ModE "race", for Bede, I have no idea.
>>>> "African by birth" might be another translation.
>>
>>>>> http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=IjoYAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA156&dq=Bede+Historia+Ecclesiastica
>>>>>
>>>>>
>> &lr=&cd=4#v=onepage&q=Bede%20Historia%20Ecclesiastica&f=false
>>>>> http://preview.tinyurl.com/ykqkog6\
>>
>>>> Sorry if this appears twice. It didn't show up on eternalseptember
>>>> and, since it was informational and not terribly silly, I thought
>>>> I would give it a second chance.
>>
>>>> I should have added that the "Severus" referred to was the emperor
>>>> Septimius Severus, whose bust, pictured in the Wikiparticle linked
>>>> to, doesn't seem to support the "race" interpretation.
>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Septimus_Severus
>>
>>> I didn't realize that Lucius Septimius Severus was buried in
>>> Yorkshire at the Mausoleum of Hadrian.
>> Me neither. It was an interesting, though irrelevant, point in the
>> WParticle that he defeated rivals named Black and White (Niger and
>> Albinus) to get the gig.
>>
>> I now think I would translate "genere Afer" as "North African by birth".
>>
>> --
>> Ah, the good old days.
>
> At least he qualified for "Famous Last Words".
>
> "Be harmonious, enrich the soldiers, scorn all others".
>
> Is a lot better than, "They couldn't hit an elephant at this dist..."

"I'll show you that it won't shoot."

--
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line 4 vacant - apply within

On 19-Jul-22 11:38, CDB wrote:
> On 7/18/2022 12:26 PM, bruce bowser wrote:
>> CDB wrote:
>>> Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
>>>> Jerry Friedman <jerry_f...@yahoo.com> writes:
>
>>>>> I'm interested in the origin of the concept of "race" in the
>>>>> modern American sense (quite similar, I think, to the sense
>>>>> used in other countries). Does it predate the use of the word
>>>>> "race" in the late 18th century (NSOED)? Did Shakespeare, for
>>>>> example, distinguish between races or just between skin
>>>>> colors?
>
>>>> The OED first cites the sense of "a group of several tribes or
>>>> peoples, regarded as forming a distinct ethnic set" to 1612, so
>>>> the word was a bit late for Shakespeare, but may have been
>>>> starting to be heard around the end of his life. The sense that
>>>> starts to equate it with things like skin color doesn't show up
>>>> until the eighteenth century.
>
>>>> From Google Books, I see "the Negro race" back to 1728, in John
>>>> Gay's _Fables_. I first see "African Race" in a 1742 translation of
>>>> Bede's _Ecclesiastical History of the English Nation_. (At
>>>> the beginning of chapter 5 of book 1, if anybody wants to compare
>>>> with the Latin.)
>
>>> The text reference is "Severus, genere Afer, Tripolitanus, ab
>>> oppido Lepti". So he was "African by kind" (my favourite word
>>> again), and "African" could refer to a Libyan from the town of
>>> Leptis Magna: not Morocco, but I guess still just North Africa.
>>> "Genus" is related to notions of birth, but whether that means
>>> it's the equivalent of ModE "race", for Bede, I have no idea.
>>> "African by birth" might be another translation.
>
>>>> http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=IjoYAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA156&dq=Bede+Historia+Ecclesiastica
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
> &lr=&cd=4#v=onepage&q=Bede%20Historia%20Ecclesiastica&f=false
>>>> http://preview.tinyurl.com/ykqkog6\
>
>>> Sorry if this appears twice. It didn't show up on eternalseptember
>>> and, since it was informational and not terribly silly, I thought
>>> I would give it a second chance.
>
>>> I should have added that the "Severus" referred to was the emperor
>>> Septimius Severus, whose bust, pictured in the Wikiparticle linked
>>> to, doesn't seem to support the "race" interpretation.
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Septimus_Severus
>
>> I didn't realize that Lucius Septimius Severus was buried in
>> Yorkshire at the Mausoleum of Hadrian.
>
> Me neither.  It was an interesting, though irrelevant, point in the
> WParticle that he defeated rivals named Black and White (Niger and
> Albinus) to get the gig.

Died in York, but buried in Rome (Castel Sant'Angelo)
>
> I now think I would translate "genere Afer" as "North African by birth".
>

--
Sam Plusnet