On 2022-07-16, Snidely wrote:

> After serious thinking Adam Funk wrote :
>> On 2022-07-13, Sam Plusnet wrote:
>>
>>> On 13-Jul-22 17:17, Ken Blake wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 13 Jul 2022 22:55:25 +1000, Peter Moylan
>>>> <peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 13/07/22 22:39, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>>>>>> A few years ago, there was a thread about the meaning of "capsize,"
>>>>>> with several people insisting vociferously that it could only mean 'a
>>>>>> boat turning on its side' and not 'a boat turning upside down'. (The
>>>>>> word occurs often enough that I can't find the thread.)
>>>>>
>>>>> My recollection of that thread is that "turning" was the essential part
>>>>> of capsizing,
>>>>
>>>> I don't remember that thread, but yes, that's essentially what
>>>> "capsizing" means.
>>>>
>>>>> and that any turn greater than about 45 degrees qualifies.
>>>>
>>>> No, it's not a question of how many degrees. When a boat capsizes, the
>>>> result is that it ends up either lying on its side in the water or is
>>>> upside down in the water.
>>>
>>> Agreed.
>>> A ship or boat may roll, but it returns to its (more or less) upright
>>> position.
>>> A capsize is what happens when it fails to right itself.
>>
>> That sounds correct to me, but I am not a sailing expert.
>>
>> It seems likely that "capsize" is a technical term in the boat world &
>> therefore has a precise definition, so popular usage could well be
>> wrong.
>
> Well, BoatUS, which is involved in insuring boats and small watercraft,
> offers this definition: "A capsize is defined as a boat rolling over
> onto its side or completely over. "
>
> It is possible that maritime law documents have even more precise
> definitions, but the insurance industry usage seems suitable for the
> go-to term of art.
>
><URL:https://www.boatus.com/expert-advice/expert-advice-archive/2016/august/avoiding-capsizing-and-swamping>

Yes, thanks.

--
You're a brave man. Go and break through the lines. And remember,
while you're out there risking your life and limb through shot and
shell, we'll be in be in here thinking what a sucker you are.
---President Rufus T Firefly

On Mon, 18 Jul 2022 14:11:37 +0100, Adam Funk <a24061@ducksburg.com>
wrote:

>You're a brave man. Go and break through the lines. And remember,
>while you're out there risking your life and limb through shot and
>shell, we'll be in be in here thinking what a sucker you are.
> ---President Rufus T Firefly

My favorite President.

On 18-Jul-22 14:10, Adam Funk wrote:
> On 2022-07-15, CDB wrote:
>
>> On 7/15/2022 12:44 PM, Adam Funk wrote:
>>> Peter Duncanson [BrE] wrote:
>>>> Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com> wrote:
>>>>> Adam Funk <a24061@ducksburg.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Sam Plusnet wrote:
>>>>>>> Ken Blake wrote:
>>>>>>>> Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>>>>>>>> On 13/07/22 22:39, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> A few years ago, there was a thread about the meaning
>>>>>>>>>> of "capsize," with several people insisting
>>>>>>>>>> vociferously that it could only mean 'a boat turning on
>>>>>>>>>> its side' and not 'a boat turning upside down'. (The
>>>>>>>>>> word occurs often enough that I can't find the
>>>>>>>>>> thread.)
>>
>>>>>>>>> My recollection of that thread is that "turning" was the
>>>>>>>>> essential part of capsizing,
>>
>>>>>>>> I don't remember that thread, but yes, that's essentially
>>>>>>>> what "capsizing" means.
>>
>>>>>>>>> and that any turn greater than about 45 degrees
>>>>>>>>> qualifies.
>>
>>>>>>>> No, it's not a question of how many degrees. When a boat
>>>>>>>> capsizes, the result is that it ends up either lying on its
>>>>>>>> side in the water or is upside down in the water.
>>
>>>>>>> Agreed. A ship or boat may roll, but it returns to its (more
>>>>>>> or less) upright position. A capsize is what happens when it
>>>>>>> fails to right itself.
>>
>>>>>> That sounds correct to me, but I am not a sailing expert.
>>
>>>>>> It seems likely that "capsize" is a technical term in the boat
>>>>>> world & therefore has a precise definition, so popular usage
>>>>>> could well be wrong.
>>
>>>>> I don't think of it as a technical term. It's just a description
>>>>> of something that can happen to a boat.
>>
>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capsizing
>>
>>>> Capsizing or keeling over occurs when a boat or ship is turned on
>>>> its side or it is upside down in the water. The act of reversing a
>>>> capsized vessel is called righting.
>>
>>>> If a capsized vessel has enough flotation to prevent sinking, it
>>>> may recover on its own in changing conditions or through mechanical
>>>> work if it is not stable inverted. Vessels of this design are
>>>> called self-righting.
>>
>>>> Small vessels
>>
>>>> In dinghy sailing, a practical distinction can be made between
>>>> being knocked down (to 90 degrees; on its beam-ends, figuratively)
>>>> which is called a capsize, and being inverted, which is called
>>>> being turtled. Small dinghies frequently capsize in the normal
>>>> course of use and can usually be recovered by the crew. Some types
>>>> of dinghy are occasionally deliberately capsized, as capsizing and
>>>> righting the vessel again can be the fastest means of draining
>>>> water from the boat. ....
>>
>>> I don't think I've ever flipped a canoe completely over, but a few
>>> years ago my son & I managed to capsize one to about 90° & take on
>>> quite a bit of water. Fortunately we were bringing it up to a (very
>>> muddy) shore at the time so we could take the gear out, lift it up,
>>> & turn it over to pour the water back out. Then I managed to
>>> retrieve the tangled line & lure (it was one of our favorites) from
>>> the tree.
>>
>> The terms I know that apply to canoes are "swamping" (filling with
>> water, for whatever reason, and sinking) and "dumping" (turning over,
>> usually to one side, although I suppose a canoe might dump stern over
>> prow in very difficult white water). The trick is to hang onto your
>> paddle.
>
> Yes. At least we had wooden paddles --- I would assume that all canoe
> paddles are designed to float?

If it floats away, you can't use to to help right the canoe.

--
Sam Plusnet

On 2022-07-18, Sam Plusnet wrote:

> On 18-Jul-22 14:10, Adam Funk wrote:
>> On 2022-07-15, CDB wrote:
>>
>>> On 7/15/2022 12:44 PM, Adam Funk wrote:
>>>> Peter Duncanson [BrE] wrote:
>>>>> Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Adam Funk <a24061@ducksburg.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> Sam Plusnet wrote:
>>>>>>>> Ken Blake wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 13/07/22 22:39, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> A few years ago, there was a thread about the meaning
>>>>>>>>>>> of "capsize," with several people insisting
>>>>>>>>>>> vociferously that it could only mean 'a boat turning on
>>>>>>>>>>> its side' and not 'a boat turning upside down'. (The
>>>>>>>>>>> word occurs often enough that I can't find the
>>>>>>>>>>> thread.)
>>>
>>>>>>>>>> My recollection of that thread is that "turning" was the
>>>>>>>>>> essential part of capsizing,
>>>
>>>>>>>>> I don't remember that thread, but yes, that's essentially
>>>>>>>>> what "capsizing" means.
>>>
>>>>>>>>>> and that any turn greater than about 45 degrees
>>>>>>>>>> qualifies.
>>>
>>>>>>>>> No, it's not a question of how many degrees. When a boat
>>>>>>>>> capsizes, the result is that it ends up either lying on its
>>>>>>>>> side in the water or is upside down in the water.
>>>
>>>>>>>> Agreed. A ship or boat may roll, but it returns to its (more
>>>>>>>> or less) upright position. A capsize is what happens when it
>>>>>>>> fails to right itself.
>>>
>>>>>>> That sounds correct to me, but I am not a sailing expert.
>>>
>>>>>>> It seems likely that "capsize" is a technical term in the boat
>>>>>>> world & therefore has a precise definition, so popular usage
>>>>>>> could well be wrong.
>>>
>>>>>> I don't think of it as a technical term. It's just a description
>>>>>> of something that can happen to a boat.
>>>
>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capsizing
>>>
>>>>> Capsizing or keeling over occurs when a boat or ship is turned on
>>>>> its side or it is upside down in the water. The act of reversing a
>>>>> capsized vessel is called righting.
>>>
>>>>> If a capsized vessel has enough flotation to prevent sinking, it
>>>>> may recover on its own in changing conditions or through mechanical
>>>>> work if it is not stable inverted. Vessels of this design are
>>>>> called self-righting.
>>>
>>>>> Small vessels
>>>
>>>>> In dinghy sailing, a practical distinction can be made between
>>>>> being knocked down (to 90 degrees; on its beam-ends, figuratively)
>>>>> which is called a capsize, and being inverted, which is called
>>>>> being turtled. Small dinghies frequently capsize in the normal
>>>>> course of use and can usually be recovered by the crew. Some types
>>>>> of dinghy are occasionally deliberately capsized, as capsizing and
>>>>> righting the vessel again can be the fastest means of draining
>>>>> water from the boat. ....
>>>
>>>> I don't think I've ever flipped a canoe completely over, but a few
>>>> years ago my son & I managed to capsize one to about 90° & take on
>>>> quite a bit of water. Fortunately we were bringing it up to a (very
>>>> muddy) shore at the time so we could take the gear out, lift it up,
>>>> & turn it over to pour the water back out. Then I managed to
>>>> retrieve the tangled line & lure (it was one of our favorites) from
>>>> the tree.
>>>
>>> The terms I know that apply to canoes are "swamping" (filling with
>>> water, for whatever reason, and sinking) and "dumping" (turning over,
>>> usually to one side, although I suppose a canoe might dump stern over
>>> prow in very difficult white water). The trick is to hang onto your
>>> paddle.
>>
>> Yes. At least we had wooden paddles --- I would assume that all canoe
>> paddles are designed to float?
>
> If it floats away, you can't use to to help right the canoe.

Fair point. I was just thinking about losing the paddle.

--
Thinking about her this morning, lying in bed, and trying to get my
thoughts on the right track, I reached into the drawer of the bedstand,
and found the Gideons' Bible, and I was going for the Psalms, friend, honest
I was, but I found the Song of Solomon instead. ---Garrison Keillor

On 7/18/2022 9:10 AM, Adam Funk wrote:
> CDB wrote:
>> Adam Funk wrote:

[stem over gudgeon]

>>> I don't think I've ever flipped a canoe completely over, but a
>>> few years ago my son & I managed to capsize one to about 90° &
>>> take on quite a bit of water. Fortunately we were bringing it up
>>> to a (very muddy) shore at the time so we could take the gear
>>> out, lift it up, & turn it over to pour the water back out. Then
>>> I managed to retrieve the tangled line & lure (it was one of our
>>> favorites) from the tree.

>> The terms I know that apply to canoes are "swamping" (filling with
>> water, for whatever reason, and sinking) and "dumping" (turning
>> over, usually to one side, although I suppose a canoe might dump
>> stern over prow in very difficult white water). The trick is to
>> hang onto your paddle.

> Yes. At least we had wooden paddles --- I would assume that all
> canoe paddles are designed to float?

Yes, IME. The shafts of aluminum and plastic paddles are hollow.