au deuxième degré

In French basically that means that something said or written shouldn't be interpreted literally, but that a hidden meaning should be sought.

I think one could say that Swift's "A Modest Proposal" should be understood au au deuxième degré.

Now, is there an Enlish equivalent for that?

I think 'ironically' could be used, or 'tongue in cheek' or maybe one could say that it should be taken with a pinch of salt (I have greater doubts about this one).

I think that in different cases different expressions might be used. All input would be welcome.

Gratefully,
Navi

On Monday, June 20, 2022 at 9:14:08 PM UTC-7, arthurvv vart wrote:
> au deuxième degré
>
> In French basically that means that something said or written shouldn't be interpreted literally, but that a hidden meaning should be sought.
>
> I think one could say that Swift's "A Modest Proposal" should be understood au au deuxième degré.
>
> Now, is there an Enlish equivalent for that?
>
> I think 'ironically' could be used, or 'tongue in cheek' or maybe one could say that it should be taken with a pinch of salt (I have greater doubts about this one).
>
> I think that in different cases different expressions might be used. All input would be welcome.
>
Take it with a grain of salt.

bill

On Tuesday, 21 June 2022 at 05:14:08 UTC+1, arthurvv vart wrote:
> au deuxième degré
>
> In French basically that means that something said or written shouldn't be interpreted literally, but that a hidden meaning should be sought.
>
> I think one could say that Swift's "A Modest Proposal" should be understood au au deuxième degré.
>
> Now, is there an Enlish equivalent for that?
>
> I think 'ironically' could be used, or 'tongue in cheek' or maybe one could say that it should be taken with a pinch of salt (I have greater doubts about this one).
>
> I think that in different cases different expressions might be used. All input would be welcome.
>
> Gratefully,
> Navi

It sounds to me that the French phrase means that one should "read between the lines", the usual indication in English that the straightforward reading is less than what is meant.

The suggested alternatives "ironically", "tongue in cheek" or "with a grain of salt" mean quite the opposite - that the straightforward reading is more than what is actually meant.

On 21/06/2022 8:55 am, bert wrote:
> On Tuesday, 21 June 2022 at 05:14:08 UTC+1, arthurvv vart wrote:
>> au deuxième degré
>>
>> In French basically that means that something said or written shouldn't be interpreted literally, but that a hidden meaning should be sought.
>>
>> I think one could say that Swift's "A Modest Proposal" should be understood au au deuxième degré.
>>
>> Now, is there an Enlish equivalent for that?
>>
>> I think 'ironically' could be used, or 'tongue in cheek' or maybe one could say that it should be taken with a pinch of salt (I have greater doubts about this one).
>>
>> I think that in different cases different expressions might be used. All input would be welcome.
>>
>> Gratefully,
>> Navi
>
> It sounds to me that the French phrase means that one should "read between the lines", the usual indication in English that the straightforward reading is less than what is meant.
>
> The suggested alternatives "ironically", "tongue in cheek" or "with a grain of salt" mean quite the opposite - that the straightforward reading is more than what is actually meant.

The phrase "read between the lines" has always annoyed me,
Of course there will always be some wise guy who decides to
because between the lines there is usually nothing but
subvert the medium and add stuff between the lines just
whitespace, unless you include the odd illustration or the
for the hell of it.
turning of a page.

--
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line 4 vacant - apply within

On 2022-06-21 04:14:03 +0000, arthurvv vart said:

> au deuxième degré
>
> In French basically that means that something said or written shouldn't
> be interpreted literally, but that a hidden meaning should be sought.
> I think one could say that Swift's "A Modest Proposal" should be
> understood au au deuxième degré.
> Now, is there an Enlish equivalent for that?

[ … ]

At fist sight this is a new departure for navi, raising a different
sort of question from what he usually asks. On closer examination I see
that it is just another example of his obsession with packing as much
meaning as possible into as few words as possible. Just say what you
mean, and don't bother with hunting around for phrases that correspond
to a phrase in French.

--
Athel -- French and British, living mainly in England until 1987.

On 21/06/22 14:14, arthurvv vart wrote:

> au deuxième degré
>
> In French basically that means that something said or written
> shouldn't be interpreted literally, but that a hidden meaning should
> be sought.
>
> I think one could say that Swift's "A Modest Proposal" should be
> understood au au deuxième degré.
>
> Now, is there an Enlish equivalent for that?
>
> I think 'ironically' could be used, or 'tongue in cheek' or maybe one
> could say that it should be taken with a pinch of salt (I have
> greater doubts about this one).
>
> I think that in different cases different expressions might be used.
> All input would be welcome.

Despite Richard's objection, I'd say that "read between the lines" comes
closest, although it's not quite equivalent to the French term. "Take it
with a grain of salt" is similar in a different way.

I don't think that the Swift example fits most of the suggested terms,
apart perhaps from "tongue in cheek". He never intended that his
proposal be taken literally, and I doubt that many readers took it
literally. He used deliberate and obvious exaggeration to get across the
point that the "Irish problem" was a serious problem.

--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org

Le mardi 21 juin 2022 à 06:14:08 UTC+2, arthurvv vart a écrit :
> au deuxième degré
>
> In French basically that means that something said or written shouldn't be interpreted literally, but that a hidden meaning should be sought.
>
> I think one could say that Swift's "A Modest Proposal" should be understood au au deuxième degré.
>
> Now, is there an Enlish equivalent for that?
>
> I think 'ironically' could be used, or 'tongue in cheek' or maybe one could say that it should be taken with a pinch of salt (I have greater doubts about this one).
>
> I think that in different cases different expressions might be used. All input would be welcome.

I'd say "shouldn't be taken at face value" if I had to translate it.

>
> Gratefully,
> Navi

On Tuesday, 21 June 2022 at 09:34:15 UTC+1, Richard Heathfield wrote:
> On 21/06/2022 8:55 am, bert wrote:
> > On Tuesday, 21 June 2022 at 05:14:08 UTC+1, arthurvv vart wrote:
> >> au deuxième degré
> >>
> >> In French basically that means that something said or written shouldn't be interpreted literally, but that a hidden meaning should be sought.
> >>
> >> I think one could say that Swift's "A Modest Proposal" should be understood au au deuxième degré.
> >>
> >> Now, is there an Enlish equivalent for that?
> >>
> >> I think 'ironically' could be used, or 'tongue in cheek' or maybe one could say that it should be taken with a pinch of salt (I have greater doubts about this one).
> >>
> >> I think that in different cases different expressions might be used. All input would be welcome.
> >>
> >> Gratefully,
> >> Navi
> >
> > It sounds to me that the French phrase means that one should "read between the lines", the usual indication in English that the straightforward reading is less than what is meant.
> >
> > The suggested alternatives "ironically", "tongue in cheek" or "with a grain of salt" mean quite the opposite - that the straightforward reading is more than what is actually meant.
> The phrase "read between the lines" has always annoyed me,
> . . .

But it's almost certainly based on Dark Ages gospel manuscripts in Latin, such as the Lindisfarne Gospels, where the original space between the lines has subsequently been filled in with the vernacular translation.

On 21/06/2022 4:18 pm, bert wrote:
> On Tuesday, 21 June 2022 at 09:34:15 UTC+1, Richard Heathfield wrote:

<snip>

>> The phrase "read between the lines" has always annoyed me,
>> . . .
>
> But it's almost certainly based on Dark Ages gospel manuscripts in Latin, such as the Lindisfarne Gospels, where the original space between the lines has subsequently been filled in with the vernacular translation.

Why not snip out my punchline and just leave the feed?

Oh. You already did.

--
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line 4 vacant - apply within

On Tue, 21 Jun 2022 08:17:17 -0700 (PDT), Bebercito
<bebercito@aol.com> wrote:

>Le mardi 21 juin 2022 à 06:14:08 UTC+2, arthurvv vart a écrit :
>> au deuxième degré
>>
>> In French basically that means that something said or written shouldn't be interpreted literally, but that a hidden meaning should be sought.
>>
>> I think one could say that Swift's "A Modest Proposal" should be understood au au deuxième degré.
>>
>> Now, is there an Enlish equivalent for that?
>>
>> I think 'ironically' could be used, or 'tongue in cheek' or maybe one could say that it should be taken with a pinch of salt (I have greater doubts about this one).
>>
>> I think that in different cases different expressions might be used. All input would be welcome.
>
>I'd say "shouldn't be taken at face value" if I had to translate it.

I know nothing of French, but "A Modest Proposal" is
a brutal satire.

'Ironically' or 'tongue in cheek' could apply better to the
gentle message in the same vein from Anatole France,
"The law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well
as the poor to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets,
and to steal bread."

--
Rich Ulrich

On Tuesday, June 21, 2022 at 2:08:05 PM UTC-4, Rich Ulrich wrote:
> On Tue, 21 Jun 2022 08:17:17 -0700 (PDT), Bebercito
> <bebe...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> >Le mardi 21 juin 2022 à 06:14:08 UTC+2, arthurvv vart a écrit :
> >> au deuxième degré
> >>
> >> In French basically that means that something said or written shouldn't be interpreted literally, but that a hidden meaning should be sought.
> >>
> >> I think one could say that Swift's "A Modest Proposal" should be understood au au deuxième degré.
> >>
> >> Now, is there an Enlish equivalent for that?
> >>
> >> I think 'ironically' could be used, or 'tongue in cheek' or maybe one could say that it should be taken with a pinch of salt (I have greater doubts about this one).
> >>
> >> I think that in different cases different expressions might be used. All input would be welcome.
> >
> >I'd say "shouldn't be taken at face value" if I had to translate it.
> I know nothing of French, but "A Modest Proposal" is
> a brutal satire.
>
> 'Ironically' or 'tongue in cheek' could apply better to the
> gentle message in the same vein from Anatole France,
> "The law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well
> as the poor to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets,
> and to steal bread."

Yes, but then we wonder how far from the subject we are getting.

Le mardi 21 juin 2022 à 20:08:05 UTC+2, Rich Ulrich a écrit :
> On Tue, 21 Jun 2022 08:17:17 -0700 (PDT), Bebercito
> <bebe...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> >Le mardi 21 juin 2022 à 06:14:08 UTC+2, arthurvv vart a écrit :
> >> au deuxième degré
> >>
> >> In French basically that means that something said or written shouldn't be interpreted literally, but that a hidden meaning should be sought.
> >>
> >> I think one could say that Swift's "A Modest Proposal" should be understood au au deuxième degré.
> >>
> >> Now, is there an Enlish equivalent for that?
> >>
> >> I think 'ironically' could be used, or 'tongue in cheek' or maybe one could say that it should be taken with a pinch of salt (I have greater doubts about this one).
> >>
> >> I think that in different cases different expressions might be used. All input would be welcome.
> >
> >I'd say "shouldn't be taken at face value" if I had to translate it.
> I know nothing of French, but "A Modest Proposal" is
> a brutal satire.
>
> 'Ironically' or 'tongue in cheek' could apply better to the
> gentle message in the same vein from Anatole France,
> "The law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well
> as the poor to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets,
> and to steal bread."
>

Irony is but one instance of "_second_ degré" ("deuxième degré" is
not the regular French phrase, BTW), as "second degré" is simply to be
understood as "second degree of meaning". Applied to literature at
large, "second degré" would therefore be better rendered as "allegory"
than as "irony".

> --
> Rich Ulrich

On Tuesday, June 21, 2022 at 11:08:05 AM UTC-7, Rich Ulrich wrote:
> On Tue, 21 Jun 2022 08:17:17 -0700 (PDT), Bebercito
> <bebe...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> >Le mardi 21 juin 2022 à 06:14:08 UTC+2, arthurvv vart a écrit :
> >> au deuxième degré
> >>
> >> In French basically that means that something said or written shouldn't be interpreted literally, but that a hidden meaning should be sought.
> >>
> >> I think one could say that Swift's "A Modest Proposal" should be understood au au deuxième degré.
> >>
> >> Now, is there an Enlish equivalent for that?
> >>
> >> I think 'ironically' could be used, or 'tongue in cheek' or maybe one could say that it should be taken with a pinch of salt (I have greater doubts about this one).
> >>
> >> I think that in different cases different expressions might be used. All input would be welcome.
> >
> >I'd say "shouldn't be taken at face value" if I had to translate it.
> I know nothing of French, but "A Modest Proposal" is
> a brutal satire.
>
> 'Ironically' or 'tongue in cheek' could apply better to the
> gentle message in the same vein from Anatole France,
> "The law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well
> as the poor to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets,
> and to steal bread."
>
An American complained that his judiciary views the rich
who steal as eccentrics needing treatment but the poor
who steal as theives needing correctional confinement.
He didn't give specific examples but FWIW, he said it
during Trump's governance.

On Tuesday, June 21, 2022 at 5:16:36 PM UTC-4, Bebercito wrote:
> Le mardi 21 juin 2022 à 20:08:05 UTC+2, Rich Ulrich a écrit :
> > On Tue, 21 Jun 2022 08:17:17 -0700 (PDT), Bebercito
> > <bebe...@aol.com> wrote:
> >
> > >Le mardi 21 juin 2022 à 06:14:08 UTC+2, arthurvv vart a écrit :
> > >> au deuxième degré
> > >>
> > >> In French basically that means that something said or written shouldn't be interpreted literally, but that a hidden meaning should be sought.
> > >>
> > >> I think one could say that Swift's "A Modest Proposal" should be understood au au deuxième degré.
> > >>
> > >> Now, is there an Enlish equivalent for that?
> > >>
> > >> I think 'ironically' could be used, or 'tongue in cheek' or maybe one could say that it should be taken with a pinch of salt (I have greater doubts about this one).
> > >>
> > >> I think that in different cases different expressions might be used. All input would be welcome.
> > >
> > >I'd say "shouldn't be taken at face value" if I had to translate it.
> > I know nothing of French, but "A Modest Proposal" is
> > a brutal satire.
> >
> > 'Ironically' or 'tongue in cheek' could apply better to the
> > gentle message in the same vein from Anatole France,
> > "The law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well
> > as the poor to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets,
> > and to steal bread."
>
> Irony is but one instance of "_second_ degré" ("deuxième degré" is
> not the regular French phrase, BTW), as "second degré" is simply to be
> understood as "second degree of meaning". Applied to literature at
> large, "second degré" would therefore be better rendered as "allegory"
> than as "irony".

Does it seem a lot like half-Spanish/half-French? Seguin degré equaling 'Secondary'?

On Monday, June 20, 2022 at 9:14:08 PM UTC-7, arthurvv vart wrote:
> au deuxième degré
>
> In French basically that means that something said or written shouldn't be interpreted literally, but that a hidden meaning should be sought.
>
> I think one could say that Swift's "A Modest Proposal" should be understood au au deuxième degré.
>
> Now, is there an Enlish equivalent for that?
>
>
I don't know what to call that piece by Swift but another story with a hidden meaning
could be called an ALLEGORY or PARABLE. Only when it's from Aesop is it called a FABLE.

allegory /ˈalɪɡ(ə)ri/
a story, poem, or picture that can be interpreted to reveal a hidden meaning, typically a moral or political one.
"Pilgrim's Progress is an allegory of the spiritual journey"
<https://www.google.com/search?q=allegory+meaning>

parable /ˈparəb(ə)l/
a simple story used to illustrate a moral or spiritual lesson, as told by Jesus in the Gospels.
"the parable of the blind men and the elephant"
<https://www.google.com/search?q=parable+meaning>

On Thursday, June 23, 2022 at 6:30:15 PM UTC-7, Dingbat wrote:
> On Monday, June 20, 2022 at 9:14:08 PM UTC-7, arthurvv vart wrote:
> > au deuxième degré
> >
> > In French basically that means that something said or written shouldn't be interpreted literally, but that a hidden meaning should be sought.
> >
> > I think one could say that Swift's "A Modest Proposal" should be understood au au deuxième degré.
> >
> > Now, is there an Enlish equivalent for that?
> >
> >
> I don't know what to call that piece by Swift but another story with a hidden meaning
> could be called an ALLEGORY or PARABLE. Only when it's from Aesop is it called a FABLE.
>
> allegory /ˈalɪɡ(ə)ri/
> a story, poem, or picture that can be interpreted to reveal a hidden meaning, typically a moral or political one.
> "Pilgrim's Progress is an allegory of the spiritual journey"
> <https://www.google.com/search?q=allegory+meaning>
>
> parable /ˈparəb(ə)l/
> a simple story used to illustrate a moral or spiritual lesson, as told by Jesus in the Gospels.
> "the parable of the blind men and the elephant"
> <https://www.google.com/search?q=parable+meaning>

The pronunciation description of the latter raises a question:
Why do dictionaries add a schwa to a syllabic l?
Some named Marabel might end it with /əl/; Parable doesn't
have that ending.

> On Thursday, June 23, 2022 at 6:30:15 PM UTC-7, Dingbat wrote:
>> parable /ˈparəb(ə)l/
>> a simple story used to illustrate a moral or spiritual lesson, as told by Jesus in the Gospels.
>> "the parable of the blind men and the elephant"
>> <https://www.google.com/search?q=parable+meaning>

On Friday, June 24, 2022 at 3:57:16 AM UTC+2, Dingbat wrote:
> The pronunciation description of the latter raises a question:
> Why do dictionaries add a schwa to a syllabic l?
> Some named Marabel might end it with /əl/; Parable doesn't
> have that ending.

I'd end Marabel, and especially Maribel, with /el/, seeing the etymology.

Dingbat <ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com> writes:
>The pronunciation description of the latter raises a question:
>Why do dictionaries add a schwa to a syllabic l?

The pronunciation of "parable" is

ˈpæɻ əb ᵊl ‖ ˈpᴇɹ-

ɻ the British r, an apico-postalveolar approximant
ᵊ is where some speakers insert a schwa [ə]
‖ separates standard BrE (left) from standard AmE (right)
ɹ the bunched American r, a dorso-prevelar approximant
- (hyphen) gives possible other pronunciations of a part of a word

. So, most say [l̩], and some say [əl].

Supersedes: <parable-20220624133208@ram.dialup.fu-berlin.de>
[inserted the line about ᴇ]

Dingbat <ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com> writes:
>The pronunciation description of the latter raises a question:
>Why do dictionaries add a schwa to a syllabic l?

The pronunciation of "parable" is

ˈpæɻ əb ᵊl ‖ ˈpᴇɹ-

ɻ the British r, an apico-postalveolar approximant
ᵊ is where some speakers insert a schwa [ə]
‖ separates standard BrE (left) from standard AmE (right)
ᴇ a sound between [e] and [ɛ], usually transcribed as either [e] or [ɛ]
ɹ the bunched American r, a dorso-prevelar approximant
- (hyphen) gives possible other pronunciations of a part of a word

. So, most say [l̩], and some say [əl].

Le 21/06/2022 à 05:14, arthurvv vart a écrit :
> au deuxième degré
>
> In French basically that means that something said or written shouldn't be interpreted literally, but that a hidden meaning should be sought.
>
> I think one could say that Swift's "A Modest Proposal" should be understood au au deuxième degré.
>
> Now, is there an Enlish equivalent for that?
>
> I think 'ironically' could be used, or 'tongue in cheek' or maybe one could say that it should be taken with a pinch of salt (I have greater doubts about this one).
>
> I think that in different cases different expressions might be used. All input would be welcome.
>
> Gratefully,
> Navi

The term 'subtext' may be useful.

On Monday, June 20, 2022 at 10:14:08 PM UTC-6, arthurvv vart wrote:
> au deuxième degré
>
> In French basically that means that something said or written shouldn't be interpreted literally, but that a hidden meaning should be sought.
>
> I think one could say that Swift's "A Modest Proposal" should be understood au au deuxième degré.
>
> Now, is there an Enlish equivalent for that?
>
> I think 'ironically' could be used, or 'tongue in cheek' or maybe one could say that it should be taken with a pinch of salt (I have greater doubts about this one).
>
> I think that in different cases different expressions might be used. All input would be welcome.

Does this have anything to do with Barthes's book /Le Degré zéro de
l'écriture/, incomprehensibly translated into English as /Writing Degree
Zero/?

--
Jerry Friedman

On Friday, June 24, 2022 at 9:31:46 AM UTC-4, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> On Monday, June 20, 2022 at 10:14:08 PM UTC-6, arthurvv vart wrote:
> > au deuxième degré
> >
> > In French basically that means that something said or written shouldn't be interpreted literally, but that a hidden meaning should be sought.
> >
> > I think one could say that Swift's "A Modest Proposal" should be understood au au deuxième degré.
> >
> > Now, is there an Enlish equivalent for that?
> >
> > I think 'ironically' could be used, or 'tongue in cheek' or maybe one could say that it should be taken with a pinch of salt (I have greater doubts about this one).
> >
> > I think that in different cases different expressions might be used. All input would be welcome.
> Does this have anything to do with Barthes's book /Le Degré zéro de
> l'écriture/, incomprehensibly translated into English as /Writing Degree
> Zero/?

English and French dictionaries show that there is a:

premier degré
deuxième degré
troisieme degré
quatrième degré

Le vendredi 24 juin 2022 à 15:31:46 UTC+2, Jerry Friedman a écrit :
> On Monday, June 20, 2022 at 10:14:08 PM UTC-6, arthurvv vart wrote:
> > au deuxième degré
> >
> > In French basically that means that something said or written shouldn't be interpreted literally, but that a hidden meaning should be sought.
> >
> > I think one could say that Swift's "A Modest Proposal" should be understood au au deuxième degré.
> >
> > Now, is there an Enlish equivalent for that?
> >
> > I think 'ironically' could be used, or 'tongue in cheek' or maybe one could say that it should be taken with a pinch of salt (I have greater doubts about this one).
> >
> > I think that in different cases different expressions might be used. All input would be welcome.
> Does this have anything to do with Barthes's book /Le Degré zéro de
> l'écriture/,

No, Barthes's (convoluted) theory refers to a "pure" form of writing, as
cleared from the devices of style.

> incomprehensibly translated into English as /Writing Degree
> Zero/?

Do you mean that the resulting translation is incomprehensible in English,
or that the choice of that particular translation is?

>
> --
> Jerry Friedman

On Friday, June 24, 2022 at 10:17:41 AM UTC-6, Bebercito wrote:
> Le vendredi 24 juin 2022 à 15:31:46 UTC+2, Jerry Friedman a écrit :
> > On Monday, June 20, 2022 at 10:14:08 PM UTC-6, arthurvv vart wrote:
> > > au deuxième degré
> > >
> > > In French basically that means that something said or written shouldn't be interpreted literally, but that a hidden meaning should be sought.
> > >
> > > I think one could say that Swift's "A Modest Proposal" should be understood au au deuxième degré.
> > >
> > > Now, is there an Enlish equivalent for that?
> > >
> > > I think 'ironically' could be used, or 'tongue in cheek' or maybe one could say that it should be taken with a pinch of salt (I have greater doubts about this one).
> > >
> > > I think that in different cases different expressions might be used. All input would be welcome.

> > Does this have anything to do with Barthes's book /Le Degré zéro de
> > l'écriture/,

> No, Barthes's (convoluted) theory refers to a "pure" form of writing, as
> cleared from the devices of style.

Thanks.

> > incomprehensibly translated into English as /Writing Degree
> > Zero/?

> Do you mean that the resulting translation is incomprehensible in English,
> or that the choice of that particular translation is?

Both. "The Zero Degree of Writing" would have been fine.

--
Jerry Friedman

On Friday, June 24, 2022 at 3:22:57 PM UTC-7, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> On Friday, June 24, 2022 at 10:17:41 AM UTC-6, Bebercito wrote:
> > Le vendredi 24 juin 2022 à 15:31:46 UTC+2, Jerry Friedman a écrit :
> > > On Monday, June 20, 2022 at 10:14:08 PM UTC-6, arthurvv vart wrote:
> > > > au deuxième degré
> > > >
> > > > In French basically that means that something said or written shouldn't be interpreted literally, but that a hidden meaning should be sought.
> > > >
> > > > I think one could say that Swift's "A Modest Proposal" should be understood au au deuxième degré.
> > > >
> > > > Now, is there an Enlish equivalent for that?
> > > >
> > > > I think 'ironically' could be used, or 'tongue in cheek' or maybe one could say that it should be taken with a pinch of salt (I have greater doubts about this one).
> > > >
> > > > I think that in different cases different expressions might be used.. All input would be welcome.
>
> > > Does this have anything to do with Barthes's book /Le Degré zéro de
> > > l'écriture/,
>
> > No, Barthes's (convoluted) theory refers to a "pure" form of writing, as
> > cleared from the devices of style.
> Thanks.
> > > incomprehensibly translated into English as /Writing Degree
> > > Zero/?
>
> > Do you mean that the resulting translation is incomprehensible in English,
> > or that the choice of that particular translation is?
> Both. "The Zero Degree of Writing" would have been fine.
>
> --
> Jerry Friedman

Thank you all very much,

'Writing Degree Zero' always made me think of 'Enter the Dragon'.

The idea, as Bebercito has pointed out, is a form of writing that is devoid of any obvious stylistic devices, any adornments and tropes. A simple, dry, direct, unembellished prose that seemingly is not striving to be literary.. I think the idea is that that type of prose itself constitutes a style.

Think of Hemingway and Camus.

Respectfully,
Navi