On a recent trip to spend a long weekend at a family gathering, I
resumed my research into annoying single-axis shower valves.

In the Pensacola FL area, I encountered three tubs (one each at Red
Roof Inns on opposites sides of town, and one at a vacation rental).
Each had a single axis valve. For the first one, I used the
wastebasket to estimate the maximum flow, and the result was roughly 3
GPM. The other two I eyeballed as being about the same. Maximum flow
through the spout was in excess of the drain rate, and in about 1
minute (40-60 seconds), the water's edge reached the far end of the tub
and the depth at the drain was approximately 1". I did not continue
this part of the test to determine the maximum rise of the water level;
for hydrostatic reasons there might be a level where input rate and
output rate balance, or it might go as far as [eventually] overflowing
the tub. I did not eliminate either possibility.

The good news, both for my ankles and for water wastage concerns, is
that the shower head in each case limited the /shower/ flow to a rate
that is easily handled by the drains.

/dps

--
"That's a good sort of hectic, innit?"

" Very much so, and I'd recommend the haggis wontons."
-njm

On Monday, June 13, 2022 at 6:02:04 PM UTC-4, snide...@gmail.com wrote:
> On a recent trip to spend a long weekend at a family gathering, I
> resumed my research into annoying single-axis shower valves.
>
> In the Pensacola FL area, I encountered three tubs (one each at Red
> Roof Inns on opposites sides of town, and one at a vacation rental).

Why would you have visited bathrooms in two Red Roof Inns
(presumably fitted out uniformly throughout the chain) in one
town? Enquiring minds want to know.

> Each had a single axis valve. For the first one, I used the
> wastebasket to estimate the maximum flow, and the result was roughly 3
> GPM. The other two I eyeballed as being about the same. Maximum flow
> through the spout was in excess of the drain rate, and in about 1
> minute (40-60 seconds), the water's edge reached the far end of the tub
> and the depth at the drain was approximately 1". I did not continue
> this part of the test to determine the maximum rise of the water level;
> for hydrostatic reasons there might be a level where input rate and
> output rate balance, or it might go as far as [eventually] overflowing
> the tub. I did not eliminate either possibility.
>
>
> The good news, both for my ankles and for water wastage concerns, is
> that the shower head in each case limited the /shower/ flow to a rate
> that is easily handled by the drains.

On 14/06/2022 12:38, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> On Monday, June 13, 2022 at 6:02:04 PM UTC-4, snide...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On a recent trip to spend a long weekend at a family gathering, I
>> resumed my research into annoying single-axis shower valves.
>>
>> In the Pensacola FL area, I encountered three tubs (one each at Red
>> Roof Inns on opposites sides of town, and one at a vacation rental).
>
> Why would you have visited bathrooms in two Red Roof Inns
> (presumably fitted out uniformly throughout the chain) in one
> town? Enquiring minds want to know.
>

No no! Do leave some things unexplained.
We atheists and agnostics need a few mysteries to puzzle over.

Sam Plusnet used thar keyboard to writen:
> On 14/06/2022 12:38, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>> On Monday, June 13, 2022 at 6:02:04 PM UTC-4, snide...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> On a recent trip to spend a long weekend at a family gathering, I
>>> resumed my research into annoying single-axis shower valves.
>>>
>>> In the Pensacola FL area, I encountered three tubs (one each at Red
>>> Roof Inns on opposites sides of town, and one at a vacation rental).
>>
>> Why would you have visited bathrooms in two Red Roof Inns
>> (presumably fitted out uniformly throughout the chain) in one
>> town? Enquiring minds want to know.
>>
>
> No no! Do leave some things unexplained.
> We atheists and agnostics need a few mysteries to puzzle over.

Add to the mysteries where your departing plane was the day before.

/dps

--
Who, me? And what lacuna?

On 15/06/22 07:15, Sam Plusnet wrote:
> On 14/06/2022 12:38, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>> On Monday, June 13, 2022 at 6:02:04 PM UTC-4, snide...@gmail.com
>> wrote:

>>> On a recent trip to spend a long weekend at a family gathering,
>>> I resumed my research into annoying single-axis shower valves.
>>>
>>> In the Pensacola FL area, I encountered three tubs (one each at
>>> Red Roof Inns on opposites sides of town, and one at a vacation
>>> rental).
>>
>> Why would you have visited bathrooms in two Red Roof Inns
>> (presumably fitted out uniformly throughout the chain) in one town?
>> Enquiring minds want to know.
>
> No no! Do leave some things unexplained. We atheists and agnostics
> need a few mysteries to puzzle over.

Don't worry, there are plenty of mysteries left. For example, does the
fridge light go out when you close the door? I've tried to check that
one, but even with all shelves removed I still can't fit inside.

And who put the overalls in Mrs Murphy's chowder?

--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org

On Tue, 14 Jun 2022 22:15:19 +0100
Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> wrote:

> On 14/06/2022 12:38, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > On Monday, June 13, 2022 at 6:02:04 PM UTC-4, snide...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> On a recent trip to spend a long weekend at a family gathering, I
> >> resumed my research into annoying single-axis shower valves.
> >>
> >> In the Pensacola FL area, I encountered three tubs (one each at Red
> >> Roof Inns on opposites sides of town, and one at a vacation rental).
> >
> > Why would you have visited bathrooms in two Red Roof Inns
> > (presumably fitted out uniformly throughout the chain) in one
> > town? Enquiring minds want to know.
> >
>
> No no! Do leave some things unexplained.
> We atheists and agnostics need a few mysteries to puzzle over.
>
The God is in the plumbing?

--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.

On 15/06/2022 08:17, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:
> On Tue, 14 Jun 2022 22:15:19 +0100
> Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> wrote:
>
>> On 14/06/2022 12:38, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>>> On Monday, June 13, 2022 at 6:02:04 PM UTC-4, snide...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>> On a recent trip to spend a long weekend at a family gathering, I
>>>> resumed my research into annoying single-axis shower valves.
>>>>
>>>> In the Pensacola FL area, I encountered three tubs (one each at Red
>>>> Roof Inns on opposites sides of town, and one at a vacation rental).
>>>
>>> Why would you have visited bathrooms in two Red Roof Inns
>>> (presumably fitted out uniformly throughout the chain) in one
>>> town? Enquiring minds want to know.
>>>
>>
>> No no! Do leave some things unexplained.
>> We atheists and agnostics need a few mysteries to puzzle over.
>>
> The God is in the plumbing?
>
Any deity which is omnipresent must perforce...

On 15/06/2022 9:41 pm, Sam Plusnet wrote:
> On 15/06/2022 08:17, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:
>> On Tue, 14 Jun 2022 22:15:19 +0100
>> Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 14/06/2022 12:38, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>>>> On Monday, June 13, 2022 at 6:02:04 PM UTC-4,
>>>> snide...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>> On a recent trip to spend a long weekend at a family
>>>>> gathering, I
>>>>> resumed my research into annoying single-axis shower valves.
>>>>>
>>>>> In the Pensacola FL area, I encountered three tubs (one each
>>>>> at Red
>>>>> Roof Inns on opposites sides of town, and one at a vacation
>>>>> rental).
>>>>
>>>> Why would you have visited bathrooms in two Red Roof Inns
>>>> (presumably fitted out uniformly throughout the chain) in one
>>>> town? Enquiring minds want to know.
>>>>
>>>
>>> No no!  Do leave some things unexplained.
>>> We atheists and agnostics need a few mysteries to puzzle over.
>>>
>> The God is in the plumbing?
>>
> Any deity which is omnipresent must perforce...

Any deity with at least the wit of a schoolboy will reply "Must?
Who says?"

--
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line 4 vacant - apply within

On Wednesday, June 15, 2022 at 2:55:19 PM UTC-6, Richard Heathfield wrote:
> On 15/06/2022 9:41 pm, Sam Plusnet wrote:
> > On 15/06/2022 08:17, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:
> >> On Tue, 14 Jun 2022 22:15:19 +0100
> >> Sam Plusnet <n...@home.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> On 14/06/2022 12:38, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> >>>> On Monday, June 13, 2022 at 6:02:04 PM UTC-4,
> >>>> snide...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>>>> On a recent trip to spend a long weekend at a family
> >>>>> gathering, I
> >>>>> resumed my research into annoying single-axis shower valves.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> In the Pensacola FL area, I encountered three tubs (one each
> >>>>> at Red
> >>>>> Roof Inns on opposites sides of town, and one at a vacation
> >>>>> rental).
> >>>>
> >>>> Why would you have visited bathrooms in two Red Roof Inns
> >>>> (presumably fitted out uniformly throughout the chain) in one
> >>>> town? Enquiring minds want to know.
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> No no! Do leave some things unexplained.
> >>> We atheists and agnostics need a few mysteries to puzzle over.
> >>>
> >> The God is in the plumbing?
> >>
> > Any deity which is omnipresent must perforce...

> Any deity with at least the wit of a schoolboy will reply "Must?
> Who says?"

There's an argument I haven't seen before. Would you also reject
the claims that any deity that is omniscient must perforce understand
plumbing, and any deity that is omnipotent must perforce be able to
fix plumbing?

--
Jerry Friedman

On 15/06/2022 11:48 pm, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> On Wednesday, June 15, 2022 at 2:55:19 PM UTC-6, Richard Heathfield wrote:
>> On 15/06/2022 9:41 pm, Sam Plusnet wrote:
>>> On 15/06/2022 08:17, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 14 Jun 2022 22:15:19 +0100
>>>> Sam Plusnet <n...@home.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 14/06/2022 12:38, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>>>>>> On Monday, June 13, 2022 at 6:02:04 PM UTC-4,
>>>>>> snide...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>> On a recent trip to spend a long weekend at a family
>>>>>>> gathering, I
>>>>>>> resumed my research into annoying single-axis shower valves.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In the Pensacola FL area, I encountered three tubs (one each
>>>>>>> at Red
>>>>>>> Roof Inns on opposites sides of town, and one at a vacation
>>>>>>> rental).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Why would you have visited bathrooms in two Red Roof Inns
>>>>>> (presumably fitted out uniformly throughout the chain) in one
>>>>>> town? Enquiring minds want to know.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> No no! Do leave some things unexplained.
>>>>> We atheists and agnostics need a few mysteries to puzzle over.
>>>>>
>>>> The God is in the plumbing?
>>>>
>>> Any deity which is omnipresent must perforce...
>
>> Any deity with at least the wit of a schoolboy will reply "Must?
>> Who says?"
>
> There's an argument I haven't seen before.

You call that an argument? I call it a retort.

> Would you also reject

I neither accept nor reject a "claim" consisting largely of an
ellipsis.

> the claims that any deity that is omniscient must perforce understand
> plumbing, and any deity that is omnipotent must perforce be able to
> fix plumbing?

I think that the "must" still sounds a little domineering, and a
little hand-wavy; would you not agree that it lacks rigour?

--
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line 4 vacant - apply within

On Wednesday, June 15, 2022 at 9:49:29 PM UTC-6, Richard Heathfield wrote:
> On 15/06/2022 11:48 pm, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> > On Wednesday, June 15, 2022 at 2:55:19 PM UTC-6, Richard Heathfield wrote:
> >> On 15/06/2022 9:41 pm, Sam Plusnet wrote:
> >>> On 15/06/2022 08:17, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:
> >>>> On Tue, 14 Jun 2022 22:15:19 +0100
> >>>> Sam Plusnet <n...@home.com> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> On 14/06/2022 12:38, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> >>>>>> On Monday, June 13, 2022 at 6:02:04 PM UTC-4,
> >>>>>> snide...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>>>>>> On a recent trip to spend a long weekend at a family
> >>>>>>> gathering, I
> >>>>>>> resumed my research into annoying single-axis shower valves.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> In the Pensacola FL area, I encountered three tubs (one each
> >>>>>>> at Red
> >>>>>>> Roof Inns on opposites sides of town, and one at a vacation
> >>>>>>> rental).
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Why would you have visited bathrooms in two Red Roof Inns
> >>>>>> (presumably fitted out uniformly throughout the chain) in one
> >>>>>> town? Enquiring minds want to know.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> No no! Do leave some things unexplained.
> >>>>> We atheists and agnostics need a few mysteries to puzzle over.
> >>>>>
> >>>> The God is in the plumbing?
> >>>>
> >>> Any deity which is omnipresent must perforce...
> >
> >> Any deity with at least the wit of a schoolboy will reply "Must?
> >> Who says?"
> >
> > There's an argument I haven't seen before.

> You call that an argument? I call it a retort.

Maybe I took it too seriously.

> > Would you also reject
>
> I neither accept nor reject a "claim" consisting largely of an
> ellipsis.

Come on. What the ellipsis replaces is completely obvious.

> > the claims that any deity that is omniscient must perforce understand
> > plumbing, and any deity that is omnipotent must perforce be able to
> > fix plumbing?

> I think that the "must" still sounds a little domineering, and a
> little hand-wavy; would you not agree that it lacks rigour?

I would not. It's a syllogism: "omnipresent" means "in every place",
the plumbing is a place, so a deity that's omnipresent must be in the
plumbing. We could probably argue about the definition of
"omnipresent", though.

I took Sam's comment to be about English usage, not theology. He's
not saying that any deity must be in the plumbing. He's saying that a
certain statement about a deity implies another statement.

--
Jerry Friedman

On 16/06/2022 2:08 pm, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> On Wednesday, June 15, 2022 at 9:49:29 PM UTC-6, Richard Heathfield wrote:
>> On 15/06/2022 11:48 pm, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, June 15, 2022 at 2:55:19 PM UTC-6, Richard Heathfield wrote:
>>>> On 15/06/2022 9:41 pm, Sam Plusnet wrote:
>>>>> On 15/06/2022 08:17, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:
>>>>>> On Tue, 14 Jun 2022 22:15:19 +0100
>>>>>> Sam Plusnet <n...@home.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 14/06/2022 12:38, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Monday, June 13, 2022 at 6:02:04 PM UTC-4,
>>>>>>>> snide...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On a recent trip to spend a long weekend at a family
>>>>>>>>> gathering, I
>>>>>>>>> resumed my research into annoying single-axis shower valves.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> In the Pensacola FL area, I encountered three tubs (one each
>>>>>>>>> at Red
>>>>>>>>> Roof Inns on opposites sides of town, and one at a vacation
>>>>>>>>> rental).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Why would you have visited bathrooms in two Red Roof Inns
>>>>>>>> (presumably fitted out uniformly throughout the chain) in one
>>>>>>>> town? Enquiring minds want to know.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> No no! Do leave some things unexplained.
>>>>>>> We atheists and agnostics need a few mysteries to puzzle over.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> The God is in the plumbing?
>>>>>>
>>>>> Any deity which is omnipresent must perforce...
>>>
>>>> Any deity with at least the wit of a schoolboy will reply "Must?
>>>> Who says?"
>>>
>>> There's an argument I haven't seen before.
>
>> You call that an argument? I call it a retort.
>
> Maybe I took it too seriously.

Perhaps. I meant it seriously, but was not advancing it as an
argument.

>>> Would you also reject
>>
>> I neither accept nor reject a "claim" consisting largely of an
>> ellipsis.
>
> Come on. What the ellipsis replaces is completely obvious.

As is the rebuttal.

--
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line 4 vacant - apply within

On Thu, 16 Jun 2022 06:08:13 -0700 (PDT)
Jerry Friedman <jerry_friedman@yahoo.com> wrote:

> On Wednesday, June 15, 2022 at 9:49:29 PM UTC-6, Richard Heathfield wrote:
> > On 15/06/2022 11:48 pm, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, June 15, 2022 at 2:55:19 PM UTC-6, Richard Heathfield wrote:
> > >> On 15/06/2022 9:41 pm, Sam Plusnet wrote:
> > >>> On 15/06/2022 08:17, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:
> > >>>> On Tue, 14 Jun 2022 22:15:19 +0100
> > >>>> Sam Plusnet <n...@home.com> wrote:
> > >>>>
> > >>>>> On 14/06/2022 12:38, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > >>>>>> On Monday, June 13, 2022 at 6:02:04 PM UTC-4,
> > >>>>>> snide...@gmail.com wrote:
> > >>>>>>> On a recent trip to spend a long weekend at a family
> > >>>>>>> gathering, I
> > >>>>>>> resumed my research into annoying single-axis shower valves.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> In the Pensacola FL area, I encountered three tubs (one each
> > >>>>>>> at Red
> > >>>>>>> Roof Inns on opposites sides of town, and one at a vacation
> > >>>>>>> rental).
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Why would you have visited bathrooms in two Red Roof Inns
> > >>>>>> (presumably fitted out uniformly throughout the chain) in one
> > >>>>>> town? Enquiring minds want to know.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> No no! Do leave some things unexplained.
> > >>>>> We atheists and agnostics need a few mysteries to puzzle over.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>> The God is in the plumbing?

In case no-one noticed; this is a spin on "The Devil is in the detail".

> > >>>>
> > >>> Any deity which is omnipresent must perforce...
> > >
> > >> Any deity with at least the wit of a schoolboy will reply "Must?
> > >> Who says?"
> > >
> > > There's an argument I haven't seen before.
>
> > You call that an argument? I call it a retort.
>
> Maybe I took it too seriously.
>
> > > Would you also reject
> >
> > I neither accept nor reject a "claim" consisting largely of an
> > ellipsis.
>
> Come on. What the ellipsis replaces is completely obvious.
>
> > > the claims that any deity that is omniscient must perforce understand
> > > plumbing, and any deity that is omnipotent must perforce be able to
> > > fix plumbing?
>
> > I think that the "must" still sounds a little domineering, and a
> > little hand-wavy; would you not agree that it lacks rigour?
>
> I would not. It's a syllogism: "omnipresent" means "in every place",
> the plumbing is a place, so a deity that's omnipresent must be in the
> plumbing. We could probably argue about the definition of
> "omnipresent", though.
>
> I took Sam's comment to be about English usage, not theology. He's
> not saying that any deity must be in the plumbing. He's saying that a
> certain statement about a deity implies another statement.
>
All I said was that this piece of Halibut was good enough.. argh!

--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.

On Thursday, June 16, 2022 at 7:20:59 AM UTC-6, Richard Heathfield wrote:
> On 16/06/2022 2:08 pm, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> > On Wednesday, June 15, 2022 at 9:49:29 PM UTC-6, Richard Heathfield wrote:
> >> On 15/06/2022 11:48 pm, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> >>> On Wednesday, June 15, 2022 at 2:55:19 PM UTC-6, Richard Heathfield wrote:
> >>>> On 15/06/2022 9:41 pm, Sam Plusnet wrote:
> >>>>> On 15/06/2022 08:17, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:
> >>>>>> On Tue, 14 Jun 2022 22:15:19 +0100
> >>>>>> Sam Plusnet <n...@home.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On 14/06/2022 12:38, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> >>>>>>>> On Monday, June 13, 2022 at 6:02:04 PM UTC-4,
> >>>>>>>> snide...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> On a recent trip to spend a long weekend at a family
> >>>>>>>>> gathering, I
> >>>>>>>>> resumed my research into annoying single-axis shower valves.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> In the Pensacola FL area, I encountered three tubs (one each
> >>>>>>>>> at Red
> >>>>>>>>> Roof Inns on opposites sides of town, and one at a vacation
> >>>>>>>>> rental).
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Why would you have visited bathrooms in two Red Roof Inns
> >>>>>>>> (presumably fitted out uniformly throughout the chain) in one
> >>>>>>>> town? Enquiring minds want to know.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> No no! Do leave some things unexplained.
> >>>>>>> We atheists and agnostics need a few mysteries to puzzle over.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>> The God is in the plumbing?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>> Any deity which is omnipresent must perforce...
> >>>
> >>>> Any deity with at least the wit of a schoolboy will reply "Must?
> >>>> Who says?"
> >>>
> >>> There's an argument I haven't seen before.
> >
> >> You call that an argument? I call it a retort.
> >
> > Maybe I took it too seriously.

> Perhaps. I meant it seriously, but was not advancing it as an
> argument.

Hm.

> >>> Would you also reject
> >>
> >> I neither accept nor reject a "claim" consisting largely of an
> >> ellipsis.
> >
> > Come on. What the ellipsis replaces is completely obvious.

> As is the rebuttal.

Not to me, unless you mean you disagree with the definition of
"omnipresent".

--
Jerry Friedman

On Thursday, June 16, 2022 at 10:14:50 AM UTC-6, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:
....

> > > >>> On 15/06/2022 08:17, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:
> > > >>>> On Tue, 14 Jun 2022 22:15:19 +0100
> > > >>>> Sam Plusnet <n...@home.com> wrote:
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>> On 14/06/2022 12:38, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > > >>>>>> On Monday, June 13, 2022 at 6:02:04 PM UTC-4,
> > > >>>>>> snide...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > >>>>>>> On a recent trip to spend a long weekend at a family
> > > >>>>>>> gathering, I
> > > >>>>>>> resumed my research into annoying single-axis shower valves.
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>> In the Pensacola FL area, I encountered three tubs (one each
> > > >>>>>>> at Red
> > > >>>>>>> Roof Inns on opposites sides of town, and one at a vacation
> > > >>>>>>> rental).
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> Why would you have visited bathrooms in two Red Roof Inns
> > > >>>>>> (presumably fitted out uniformly throughout the chain) in one
> > > >>>>>> town? Enquiring minds want to know.
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> No no! Do leave some things unexplained.
> > > >>>>> We atheists and agnostics need a few mysteries to puzzle over.
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>> The God is in the plumbing?

> In case no-one noticed; this is a spin on "The Devil is in the detail".
....

Which seems to be a spin on "God is in the detail," or "Der liebe Gott steckt im
Detail," supposedly a saying of the German art historian Aby Warburg (1866-
1929). The journalist and novelist Theodor Fontane (1819-1898) is supposed
to have said "Alles Interesse steckt im Detail." In a quick look at Google Books,
I can't find the original of either, but maybe that's because 19th-century German
books foil OCR.

(And some people noticed.)

--
Jerry Friedman

On 6/16/2022 9:08 AM, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> Richard Heathfield wrote:
>> Jerry Friedman wrote:
>>> Richard Heathfield wrote:
>>>> Sam Plusnet wrote:

[Deus in machina]

>>>>> Any deity which is omnipresent must perforce...

.... be in your pocket." (Catholic childrens' joke, circa 1949).
\ >>>> Any deity with at least the wit of a schoolboy will reply
>>>> "Must? Who says?"

>>> There's an argument I haven't seen before.

>> You call that an argument? I call it a retort.

> Maybe I took it too seriously.

>>> Would you also reject

>> I neither accept nor reject a "claim" consisting largely of an
>> ellipsis.

> Come on. What the ellipsis replaces is completely obvious.

Not completely, to me. The second thing I thought of was Zhuangzi's
atory of a reductionist student trying to corner his teacher about the
location of the Dao. "Is it in <some large thing>?" "Yes". He
persisted, naming a series of smaller and less important things; until*
his master, perhaps growing tired of the game, volunteered "The Dao is
in that dogturd".

"At this, the young man had nothing to say."

*ObSemicolons: There appear to be some technically subordinate clauses
that I am willing to use one on. That clause feels co-ordinate to me,
because the word "until" could be dropped and the semicolon would do an
adequate job of connection by itself.

>>> the claims that any deity that is omniscient must perforce
>>> understand plumbing, and any deity that is omnipotent must
>>> perforce be able to fix plumbing?

>> I think that the "must" still sounds a little domineering, and a
>> little hand-wavy; would you not agree that it lacks rigour?

> I would not. It's a syllogism: "omnipresent" means "in every
> place", the plumbing is a place, so a deity that's omnipresent must
> be in the plumbing. We could probably argue about the definition of
> "omnipresent", though.

> I took Sam's comment to be about English usage, not theology. He's
> not saying that any deity must be in the plumbing. He's saying that
> a certain statement about a deity implies another statement.

* Jerry Friedman:

> On Thursday, June 16, 2022 at 10:14:50 AM UTC-6, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:
> ...
>
>>> > >>> On 15/06/2022 08:17, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:
>>> > >>>> On Tue, 14 Jun 2022 22:15:19 +0100
>>> > >>>> Sam Plusnet <n...@home.com> wrote:
>>> > >>>>
>>> > >>>>> On 14/06/2022 12:38, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>>> > >>>>>> On Monday, June 13, 2022 at 6:02:04 PM UTC-4,
>>> > >>>>>> snide...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> > >>>>>>> On a recent trip to spend a long weekend at a family
>>> > >>>>>>> gathering, I
>>> > >>>>>>> resumed my research into annoying single-axis shower valves.
>>> > >>>>>>>
>>> > >>>>>>> In the Pensacola FL area, I encountered three tubs (one each
>>> > >>>>>>> at Red
>>> > >>>>>>> Roof Inns on opposites sides of town, and one at a vacation
>>> > >>>>>>> rental).
>>> > >>>>>>
>>> > >>>>>> Why would you have visited bathrooms in two Red Roof Inns
>>> > >>>>>> (presumably fitted out uniformly throughout the chain) in one
>>> > >>>>>> town? Enquiring minds want to know.
>>> > >>>>>>
>>> > >>>>>
>>> > >>>>> No no! Do leave some things unexplained.
>>> > >>>>> We atheists and agnostics need a few mysteries to puzzle over.
>>> > >>>>>
>>> > >>>> The God is in the plumbing?
>
>> In case no-one noticed; this is a spin on "The Devil is in the detail".
> ...
>
> Which seems to be a spin on "God is in the detail," or "Der liebe Gott steckt im
> Detail," supposedly a saying of the German art historian Aby Warburg (1866-
> 1929). The journalist and novelist Theodor Fontane (1819-1898) is supposed
> to have said "Alles Interesse steckt im Detail." In a quick look at Google Books,
> I can't find the original of either, but maybe that's because 19th-century German
> books foil OCR.
>
> (And some people noticed.)

<https://www.google.ca/books/edition/Bayreuther_Bl%C3%A4tter/dP06IBA4v8UC?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=interesse+steckt+im+detail&pg=PA352&printsec=frontcover>

In an essay on Willibald Alexis.

But the more famous Fontane quote [1] seems to be "Der Zauber steckt
immer im Detail". A whole anthology has been published under this as a
title.

<https://www.suhrkamp.de/buch/theodor-fontane-der-zauber-steckt-immer-im-detail-t-9783458200338>

This seems to be a version of the common advice for writers, "Be
specific!"

I'm really surprised that "the devil in the detail" is that new;
apparently, only commonly found since about 1940, in German.

____
[1] Or possibly only a popular version of a quote, since I can't find a
concrete source mentioned.

--
There is, at a women's college, always some emancipating
encouragement for those with masculine tastes for such things
as mathematics, philosophy, and friendship.
-- Jane Rule, This Is Not For You, p.15

On Saturday, June 18, 2022 at 6:09:25 PM UTC-6, Quinn C wrote:
> * Jerry Friedman:
> > On Thursday, June 16, 2022 at 10:14:50 AM UTC-6, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:
> > ...
> >
> >>> > >>> On 15/06/2022 08:17, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:
> >>> > >>>> On Tue, 14 Jun 2022 22:15:19 +0100
> >>> > >>>> Sam Plusnet <n...@home.com> wrote:
....

> >>> > >>>> The God is in the plumbing?
> >
> >> In case no-one noticed; this is a spin on "The Devil is in the detail".
> > ...
> >
> > Which seems to be a spin on "God is in the detail," or "Der liebe Gott steckt im
> > Detail," supposedly a saying of the German art historian Aby Warburg (1866-
> > 1929). The journalist and novelist Theodor Fontane (1819-1898) is supposed
> > to have said "Alles Interesse steckt im Detail." In a quick look at Google Books,
> > I can't find the original of either, but maybe that's because 19th-century German
> > books foil OCR.
> >
> > (And some people noticed.)
> <https://www.google.ca/books/edition/Bayreuther_Bl%C3%A4tter/dP06IBA4v8UC?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=interesse+steckt+im+detail&pg=PA352&printsec=frontcover>
>
> In an essay on Willibald Alexis.

Thanks for finding that.

> But the more famous Fontane quote [1] seems to be "Der Zauber steckt
> immer im Detail". A whole anthology has been published under this as a
> title.
>
> <https://www.suhrkamp.de/buch/theodor-fontane-der-zauber-steckt-immer-im-detail-t-9783458200338>
>
> This seems to be a version of the common advice for writers, "Be
> specific!"
>
> I'm really surprised that "the devil in the detail" is that new;
> apparently, only commonly found since about 1940, in German.
>
> ____
> [1] Or possibly only a popular version of a quote, since I can't find a
> concrete source mentioned.

Or a popular version of the same quote.

--
Jerry Friedman

On Saturday, June 18, 2022 at 8:09:25 PM UTC-4, Quinn C wrote:
> * Jerry Friedman:
> > On Thursday, June 16, 2022 at 10:14:50 AM UTC-6, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:

> >> In case no-one noticed; this is a spin on "The Devil is in the detail".
> > Which seems to be a spin on "God is in the detail," or "Der liebe Gott steckt im
> > Detail," supposedly a saying of the German art historian Aby Warburg (1866-
> > 1929). The journalist and novelist Theodor Fontane (1819-1898) is supposed
> > to have said "Alles Interesse steckt im Detail." In a quick look at Google Books,
> > I can't find the original of either, but maybe that's because 19th-century German
> > books foil OCR.
> > (And some people noticed.)
> <https://www.google.ca/books/edition/Bayreuther_Bl%C3%A4tter/dP06IBA4v8UC?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=interesse+steckt+im+detail&pg=PA352&printsec=frontcover>
>
> In an essay on Willibald Alexis.
>
> But the more famous Fontane quote [1] seems to be "Der Zauber steckt
> immer im Detail". A whole anthology has been published under this as a
> title.
>
> <https://www.suhrkamp.de/buch/theodor-fontane-der-zauber-steckt-immer-im-detail-t-9783458200338>
>
> This seems to be a version of the common advice for writers, "Be
> specific!"
>
> I'm really surprised that "the devil in the detail" is that new;
> apparently, only commonly found since about 1940, in German.

Or, as the great architect Ludwig Mies van der Rohe put it,
God is in the details.

Responding to the earlier fellow Chicagoan Louis Sullivan's
Form follows function.