Yesterday's Jeopardy had a clue about a Hittite deity associated with "a
contagion". The response "plague" was accepted. That struck me as an
anachronism. Well, in the now first interpretation where plague means
bubonic plague, it wasn't, to our knowledge, around yet in the time of
the Hittites.

I would've liked to see the range of answers they would've accepted.
Wikipedia describes the deity as "god of plague and pestilence", which I
think expresses "any severe disease". I was going for leprosy, a
specific thing that we know was around already, and being specific, fits
"a contagion" better.

--
O'Brien: Nog, did you reroute that damned gyrodyne?
Nog: I'm trying, but the damned thruster array won't take the input.
O'Brien: Try the lateral impulse thrusters. And watch your mouth.
-- DS9, S06E02

On Wednesday, June 8, 2022 at 11:43:28 AM UTC-6, Quinn C wrote:
> Yesterday's Jeopardy had a clue about a Hittite deity associated with "a
> contagion". The response "plague" was accepted.

I don't follow. "Contagion" was a clue for "What is a plague?"? But a
Hittite deity was involved? (*wikips* Maybe Jarri?)

> That struck me as an
> anachronism. Well, in the now first interpretation where plague means
> bubonic plague,

(or pneumonic or septicemic)

> it wasn't, to our knowledge, around yet in the time of
> the Hittites.

It doesn't bother me to see "plague" used for any severe, probably deadly
epidemic.

> I would've liked to see the range of answers they would've accepted.
> Wikipedia describes the deity as "god of plague and pestilence", which I
> think expresses "any severe disease". I was going for leprosy, a
> specific thing that we know was around already, and being specific, fits
> "a contagion" better.

Though it's not all that contagious.

--
Jerry Friedman

On Wednesday, June 8, 2022 at 4:15:56 PM UTC-4, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> On Wednesday, June 8, 2022 at 11:43:28 AM UTC-6, Quinn C wrote:

> > Yesterday's Jeopardy had a clue about a Hittite deity associated with "a
> > contagion". The response "plague" was accepted.
>
> I don't follow. "Contagion" was a clue for "What is a plague?"? But a
> Hittite deity was involved? (*wikips* Maybe Jarri?)

Yes. Mayim pronounced it with a [j] (/y/).

(She still hasn't had any help with her French.)

> > That struck me as an
> > anachronism. Well, in the now first interpretation where plague means
> > bubonic plague,
> (or pneumonic or septicemic)
> > it wasn't, to our knowledge, around yet in the time of
> > the Hittites.
>
> It doesn't bother me to see "plague" used for any severe, probably deadly
> epidemic.
>
> > I would've liked to see the range of answers they would've accepted.
> > Wikipedia describes the deity as "god of plague and pestilence", which I
> > think expresses "any severe disease". I was going for leprosy, a
> > specific thing that we know was around already, and being specific, fits
> > "a contagion" better.
>
> Though it's not all that contagious.

* Jerry Friedman:

> On Wednesday, June 8, 2022 at 11:43:28 AM UTC-6, Quinn C wrote:
>> Yesterday's Jeopardy had a clue about a Hittite deity associated with "a
>> contagion". The response "plague" was accepted.
>
> I don't follow. "Contagion" was a clue for "What is a plague?"? But a
> Hittite deity was involved? (*wikips* Maybe Jarri?)
>
>> That struck me as an
>> anachronism. Well, in the now first interpretation where plague means
>> bubonic plague,
>
> (or pneumonic or septicemic)

All caused by Yersinia pestis, so the same contagion.

>> it wasn't, to our knowledge, around yet in the time of
>> the Hittites.
>
> It doesn't bother me to see "plague" used for any severe, probably deadly
> epidemic.

OK, pulling up the exact clue:

| The Hittite war god Jarri helped the king in battle, but uh oh! was
| also the god of this contagion

My problem is that "this contagion" suggest that we're looking for a
specific disease or disease agent, not a near synonym for "contagion".

(Another problem being the completely unnecessary "uh oh!")

Would "epidemic" have been accepted? I doubt it. Yet, "plague" is only a
correct answer in the wider sense of "(severe) epidemic", not in the
sense of "epidemic caused by Yersinia pestis".

This is not the first time I have this type of complaint about a
Jeopardy clue. IIRC, once, the response "pterosaur" was rejected, and
"pterodactyl" was accepted, although "pterodactyl" was only a correct
response in the informal, wider sense where it means any pterosaur (the
clue said something about wingspans up to so and so many feet, far
beyond the size of members of the genus Pterodactylus.)

--
Quinn C
My pronouns are they/them
(or other gender-neutral ones)

Jerry Friedman <jerry_friedman@yahoo.com> writes:
>It doesn't bother me to see "plague" used for any severe, probably deadly
>epidemic.

It was on 2020-02-25 when I wrote here:

|I bought some additional meals today for the case of a curfew
|[due to the lung plague]

.

On Wednesday, June 8, 2022 at 4:26:06 PM UTC-6, Quinn C wrote:
> * Jerry Friedman:
> > On Wednesday, June 8, 2022 at 11:43:28 AM UTC-6, Quinn C wrote:
> >> Yesterday's Jeopardy had a clue about a Hittite deity associated with "a
> >> contagion". The response "plague" was accepted.
> >
> > I don't follow. "Contagion" was a clue for "What is a plague?"? But a
> > Hittite deity was involved? (*wikips* Maybe Jarri?)
> >
> >> That struck me as an
> >> anachronism. Well, in the now first interpretation where plague means
> >> bubonic plague,
> >
> > (or pneumonic or septicemic)

> All caused by Yersinia pestis, so the same contagion.

Yes, that's the basis of my objection.

> >> it wasn't, to our knowledge, around yet in the time of
> >> the Hittites.
> >
> > It doesn't bother me to see "plague" used for any severe, probably deadly
> > epidemic.

> OK, pulling up the exact clue:
>
> | The Hittite war god Jarri helped the king in battle, but uh oh! was
> | also the god of this contagion
>
> My problem is that "this contagion" suggest that we're looking for a
> specific disease or disease agent, not a near synonym for "contagion".
>
> (Another problem being the completely unnecessary "uh oh!")
>
> Would "epidemic" have been accepted? I doubt it. Yet, "plague" is only a
> correct answer in the wider sense of "(severe) epidemic", not in the
> sense of "epidemic caused by Yersinia pestis".

OK, I agree (though I wouldn't be able to guess whether "epidemic" would
have been accepted). It looks as if somebody read an encyclopedia
entry without thinking about what they were reading.

> This is not the first time I have this type of complaint about a
> Jeopardy clue.

Should be "I have had".

> IIRC, once, the response "pterosaur" was rejected, and
> "pterodactyl" was accepted, although "pterodactyl" was only a correct
> response in the informal, wider sense where it means any pterosaur (the
> clue said something about wingspans up to so and so many feet, far
> beyond the size of members of the genus Pterodactylus.)

That seems even worse.

--
Jerry Friedman

On Wednesday, June 8, 2022 at 1:43:28 PM UTC-4, Quinn C wrote:
> Yesterday's Jeopardy had a clue about a Hittite deity associated with "a
> contagion". The response "plague" was accepted. That struck me as an
> anachronism. Well, in the now first interpretation where plague means
> bubonic plague, it wasn't, to our knowledge, around yet in the time of
> the Hittites.
>
> I would've liked to see the range of answers they would've accepted.
> Wikipedia describes the deity as "god of plague and pestilence", which I
> think expresses "any severe disease". I was going for leprosy, a
> specific thing that we know was around already, and being specific, fits
> "a contagion" better.

Today's 'plague' *is* actually plaque in the blood stream (which is from eating food rich in saturated fat and choline).

On Wednesday, June 8, 2022 at 6:26:06 PM UTC-4, Quinn C wrote:
> * Jerry Friedman:
> > On Wednesday, June 8, 2022 at 11:43:28 AM UTC-6, Quinn C wrote:
> >> Yesterday's Jeopardy had a clue about a Hittite deity associated with "a
> >> contagion". The response "plague" was accepted.
> >
> > I don't follow. "Contagion" was a clue for "What is a plague?"? But a
> > Hittite deity was involved? (*wikips* Maybe Jarri?)
> >
> >> That struck me as an
> >> anachronism. Well, in the now first interpretation where plague means
> >> bubonic plague,
> >
> > (or pneumonic or septicemic)
> All caused by Yersinia pestis, so the same contagion.
> >> it wasn't, to our knowledge, around yet in the time of
> >> the Hittites.
> >
> > It doesn't bother me to see "plague" used for any severe, probably deadly
> > epidemic.
> OK, pulling up the exact clue:
>
> | The Hittite war god Jarri helped the king in battle, but uh oh! was
> | also the god of this contagion
>
> My problem is that "this contagion" suggest that we're looking for a
> specific disease or disease agent, not a near synonym for "contagion".

There's a huge literature on the extmsive medical texts from Mesopotamia
(in Akkadian and Sumerian), but I don't know how much we have in that area
in Hittite.

> (Another problem being the completely unnecessary "uh oh!")
>
> Would "epidemic" have been accepted? I doubt it. Yet, "plague" is only a
> correct answer in the wider sense of "(severe) epidemic", not in the
> sense of "epidemic caused by Yersinia pestis".
>
> This is not the first time I have this type of complaint about a
> Jeopardy clue. IIRC, once, the response "pterosaur" was rejected, and
> "pterodactyl" was accepted, although "pterodactyl" was only a correct
> response in the informal, wider sense where it means any pterosaur (the
> clue said something about wingspans up to so and so many feet, far
> beyond the size of members of the genus Pterodactylus.)

* "Peter T. Daniels" <a9fb83aa-11b1-4078-bf2f-4d4980494dd7n @googlegroups.com> :
Wrote on Thu, 9 Jun 2022 04:59:20 -0700 (PDT):
> On Wednesday, June 8, 2022 at 6:26:06 PM UTC-4, Quinn C wrote:
>> * Jerry Friedman:
>> > On Wednesday, June 8, 2022 at 11:43:28 AM UTC-6, Quinn C wrote:
>> >> Yesterday's Jeopardy had a clue about a Hittite deity associated
>> >> with "a contagion". The response "plague" was accepted.
>> >
>> > I don't follow. "Contagion" was a clue for "What is a plague?"? But
>> > a Hittite deity was involved? (*wikips* Maybe Jarri?)

>> >> That struck me as an anachronism. Well, in the now first
>> >> interpretation where plague means bubonic plague,
>> >
>> > (or pneumonic or septicemic)
>> All caused by Yersinia pestis, so the same contagion.
>> >> it wasn't, to our knowledge, around yet in the time of
>> >> the Hittites.
>> >
>> > It doesn't bother me to see "plague" used for any severe, probably deadly
>> > epidemic.
>> OK, pulling up the exact clue:
>>
>> | The Hittite war god Jarri helped the king in battle, but uh oh! was
>> | also the god of this contagion
>>
>> My problem is that "this contagion" suggest that we're looking for a
>> specific disease or disease agent, not a near synonym for "contagion".
>
> There's a huge literature on the extmsive medical texts from Mesopotamia
> (in Akkadian and Sumerian), but I don't know how much we have in that area
> in Hittite.

In village-gods-of-south-india the plague deity is called "maari" -
lit. smallpox, and mari-amma (mother-mari) with a widespread cult. There
doesn't seem to have been anything similar with the Hittites.

Apparently there was a major plague event, not a deity:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hittite_plague

Madhu submitted this gripping article, maybe on Thursday:
> * "Peter T. Daniels" <a9fb83aa-11b1-4078-bf2f-4d4980494dd7n
> @googlegroups.com> : Wrote on Thu, 9 Jun 2022 04:59:20 -0700 (PDT):
>> On Wednesday, June 8, 2022 at 6:26:06 PM UTC-4, Quinn C wrote:
>>> * Jerry Friedman:
>>>> On Wednesday, June 8, 2022 at 11:43:28 AM UTC-6, Quinn C wrote:
>>>>> Yesterday's Jeopardy had a clue about a Hittite deity associated
>>>>> with "a contagion". The response "plague" was accepted.
>>>>
>>>> I don't follow. "Contagion" was a clue for "What is a plague?"? But
>>>> a Hittite deity was involved? (*wikips* Maybe Jarri?)
>
>>>>> That struck me as an anachronism. Well, in the now first
>>>>> interpretation where plague means bubonic plague,
>>>>
>>>> (or pneumonic or septicemic) All caused by Yersinia pestis, so the same
>>>> contagion.
>>>>> it wasn't, to our knowledge, around yet in the time of
>>>>> the Hittites.
>>>>
>>>> It doesn't bother me to see "plague" used for any severe, probably deadly
>>>> epidemic.
>>> OK, pulling up the exact clue:
>>>
>>>> The Hittite war god Jarri helped the king in battle, but uh oh! was
>>>> also the god of this contagion
>>>
>>> My problem is that "this contagion" suggest that we're looking for a
>>> specific disease or disease agent, not a near synonym for "contagion".
>>
>> There's a huge literature on the extmsive medical texts from Mesopotamia
>> (in Akkadian and Sumerian), but I don't know how much we have in that area
>> in Hittite.
>
> In village-gods-of-south-india the plague deity is called "maari" -
> lit. smallpox, and mari-amma (mother-mari) with a widespread cult. There
> doesn't seem to have been anything similar with the Hittites.
>
> Apparently there was a major plague event, not a deity:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hittite_plague

From that article:

"According to author Philip Norrie (How Disease Affected the End of the
Bronze Age), there are three diseases most likely to have caused a
post-Bronze Age societal collapse: smallpox, bubonic plague and
tularemia. The tularemia plague which struck the Hittites could have
been spread by insects or infected dirt or plants, through open wounds,
or by eating infected animals.[2]"

tularemia and bubonic plague are both zoonotic, but my understanding is
that the reservoirs of the bubonic plague (prior to the 14th century
CE) were on the steppelands far to the east of the Hittites. Or
perhaps that's where it hung out after giving up on the Hittites.

/dps "don't adopt wild gerbils"

--
"First thing in the morning, before I have coffee, I read the obits, If
I'm not in it, I'll have breakfast." -- Carl Reiner, to CBS News in
2015.

On Saturday, June 11, 2022 at 7:36:01 PM UTC-4, snide...@gmail.com wrote:
> Madhu submitted this gripping article, maybe on Thursday:
> > * "Peter T. Daniels" <a9fb83aa-11b1-4078-bf2f-4d4980494dd7n
> > @googlegroups.com> : Wrote on Thu, 9 Jun 2022 04:59:20 -0700 (PDT):
> >> On Wednesday, June 8, 2022 at 6:26:06 PM UTC-4, Quinn C wrote:
> >>> * Jerry Friedman:
> >>>> On Wednesday, June 8, 2022 at 11:43:28 AM UTC-6, Quinn C wrote:
> >>>>> Yesterday's Jeopardy had a clue about a Hittite deity associated
> >>>>> with "a contagion". The response "plague" was accepted.
> >>>>
> >>>> I don't follow. "Contagion" was a clue for "What is a plague?"? But
> >>>> a Hittite deity was involved? (*wikips* Maybe Jarri?)
> >
> >>>>> That struck me as an anachronism. Well, in the now first
> >>>>> interpretation where plague means bubonic plague,
> >>>>
> >>>> (or pneumonic or septicemic) All caused by Yersinia pestis, so the same
> >>>> contagion.
> >>>>> it wasn't, to our knowledge, around yet in the time of
> >>>>> the Hittites.
> >>>>
> >>>> It doesn't bother me to see "plague" used for any severe, probably deadly
> >>>> epidemic.
> >>> OK, pulling up the exact clue:
> >>>
> >>>> The Hittite war god Jarri helped the king in battle, but uh oh! was
> >>>> also the god of this contagion
> >>>
> >>> My problem is that "this contagion" suggest that we're looking for a
> >>> specific disease or disease agent, not a near synonym for "contagion".
> >>
> >> There's a huge literature on the extmsive medical texts from Mesopotamia
> >> (in Akkadian and Sumerian), but I don't know how much we have in that area
> >> in Hittite.
> >
> > In village-gods-of-south-india the plague deity is called "maari" -
> > lit. smallpox, and mari-amma (mother-mari) with a widespread cult. There
> > doesn't seem to have been anything similar with the Hittites.
> >
> > Apparently there was a major plague event, not a deity:
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hittite_plague
> From that article:
>
> "According to author Philip Norrie (How Disease Affected the End of the
> Bronze Age), there are three diseases most likely to have caused a
> post-Bronze Age societal collapse: smallpox, bubonic plague and
> tularemia. The tularemia plague which struck the Hittites could have
> been spread by insects or infected dirt or plants, through open wounds,
> or by eating infected animals.[2]"
>
> tularemia and bubonic plague are both zoonotic, but my understanding is
> that the reservoirs of the bubonic plague (prior to the 14th century
> CE) were on the steppelands far to the east of the Hittites. Or
> perhaps that's where it hung out after giving up on the Hittites.

You could add that they were in modern-day Turkey.

On Wednesday, June 8, 2022 at 1:15:56 PM UTC-7, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> On Wednesday, June 8, 2022 at 11:43:28 AM UTC-6, Quinn C wrote:
> > Yesterday's Jeopardy had a clue about a Hittite deity associated with "a
> > contagion". The response "plague" was accepted.
> I don't follow. "Contagion" was a clue for "What is a plague?"? But a
> Hittite deity was involved? (*wikips* Maybe Jarri?)
> > That struck me as an
> > anachronism. Well, in the now first interpretation where plague means
> > bubonic plague,
> (or pneumonic or septicemic)
> > it wasn't, to our knowledge, around yet in the time of
> > the Hittites.
> It doesn't bother me to see "plague" used for any severe, probably deadly
> epidemic.
> > I would've liked to see the range of answers they would've accepted.
> > Wikipedia describes the deity as "god of plague and pestilence", which I
> > think expresses "any severe disease". I was going for leprosy, a
> > specific thing that we know was around already, and being specific, fits
> > "a contagion" better.
> Though it's not all that contagious.
>
In Biblical English, plague can mean pestilence or other such calamity:

The Plagues of Egypt, in the account of the book of Exodus, are ten disasters inflicted on Biblical Egypt by the God of Israel
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plagues_of_Egypt>