From my memory: A list of words that often are not
pronounced like the person who coined them wanted.

TeX: The inventor wanted [teX], but people often say [tek].
GIF: [dZIf] / [gIf] (Wikipedia has a page "pronunciation of GIF".)
UFO: ['jufoU] / [ju ef 'oU] (by Captain Edward J. Ruppelt)

So, you can coin a term and dictate its spelling, but often
not its pronunciation.

On 31/05/22 22:24, Stefan Ram wrote:

> From my memory: A list of words that often are not
> pronounced like the person who coined them wanted.
>
> TeX: The inventor wanted [teX], but people often say [tek].
> GIF: [dZIf] / [gIf] (Wikipedia has a page "pronunciation of GIF".)
> UFO: ['jufoU] / [ju ef 'oU] (by Captain Edward J. Ruppelt)
>
> So, you can coin a term and dictate its spelling, but often
> not its pronunciation.

quark.

--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org

On Tuesday, May 31, 2022 at 7:40:47 AM UTC-6, Peter Moylan wrote:
> On 31/05/22 22:24, Stefan Ram wrote:
>
> > From my memory: A list of words that often are not
> > pronounced like the person who coined them wanted.
> >
> > TeX: The inventor wanted [teX], but people often say [tek].
> > GIF: [dZIf] / [gIf] (Wikipedia has a page "pronunciation of GIF".)
> > UFO: ['jufoU] / [ju ef 'oU] (by Captain Edward J. Ruppelt)
> >
> > So, you can coin a term and dictate its spelling, but often
> > not its pronunciation.
>
> quark.

I don't pronounce it the way its inventor, or rather its applier
to physics, wanted.

--
Jerry Friedman

On 31/05/2022 15:19, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> On Tuesday, May 31, 2022 at 7:40:47 AM UTC-6, Peter Moylan wrote:
>> On 31/05/22 22:24, Stefan Ram wrote:
>>
>>> From my memory: A list of words that often are not
>>> pronounced like the person who coined them wanted.
>>>
>>> TeX: The inventor wanted [teX], but people often say [tek].
>>> GIF: [dZIf] / [gIf] (Wikipedia has a page "pronunciation of GIF".)
>>> UFO: ['jufoU] / [ju ef 'oU] (by Captain Edward J. Ruppelt)
>>>
>>> So, you can coin a term and dictate its spelling, but often
>>> not its pronunciation.
>>
>> quark.
>
> I don't pronounce it the way its inventor, or rather its applier
> to physics, wanted.
>
Rejoice.

--
Ray
UK

On 2022-05-31 16:13:10 +0000, musika said:

> On 31/05/2022 15:19, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>> On Tuesday, May 31, 2022 at 7:40:47 AM UTC-6, Peter Moylan wrote:
>>> On 31/05/22 22:24, Stefan Ram wrote:
>>>
>>>> From my memory: A list of words that often are not
>>>> pronounced like the person who coined them wanted.
>>>>
>>>> TeX: The inventor wanted [teX], but people often say [tek].
>>>> GIF: [dZIf] / [gIf] (Wikipedia has a page "pronunciation of GIF".)
>>>> UFO: ['jufoU] / [ju ef 'oU] (by Captain Edward J. Ruppelt)
>>>>
>>>> So, you can coin a term and dictate its spelling, but often
>>>> not its pronunciation.
>>>
>>> quark.
>>
>> I don't pronounce it the way its inventor, or rather its applier
>> to physics, wanted.
>>
> Rejoice.

If you invent a pronunciation that ignores the way everybody speaks
then your pronunciation won't be adopted. I assume that "The inventor
wanted [teX]" means [tex], but [x] (German or Welsh ch, or Spanish j)
is a sound that is virtually unknown in English. The only reasonably
common word in which it occurs is "loch", and even that is often
pronounced [lɔk].

--
Athel -- French and British, living mainly in England until 1987.

On 01/06/22 00:19, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> On Tuesday, May 31, 2022 at 7:40:47 AM UTC-6, Peter Moylan wrote:
>> On 31/05/22 22:24, Stefan Ram wrote:
>>
>>> From my memory: A list of words that often are not
>>> pronounced like the person who coined them wanted.
>>>
>>> TeX: The inventor wanted [teX], but people often say [tek].
>>> GIF: [dZIf] / [gIf] (Wikipedia has a page "pronunciation of GIF".)
>>> UFO: ['jufoU] / [ju ef 'oU] (by Captain Edward J. Ruppelt)
>>>
>>> So, you can coin a term and dictate its spelling, but often
>>> not its pronunciation.
>>
>> quark.
>
> I don't pronounce it the way its inventor, or rather its applier
> to physics, wanted.

Nor I. Nor most people, I imagine. For me it rhymes with spark, not splork.

I thought that Knuth wanted [tEk], but many people say [tEks].

--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org

Stefan Ram:
>>>> TeX: The inventor wanted [teX], but people often say [tek].

Peter Moylan:
> I thought that Knuth wanted [tEk], but many people say [tEks].

What Knuth actually wrote in "Tau Epsilon Chi, a System for
Technical Text" appears to have been:

# Insiders pronounce the x of TEX as a Greek chi, not as an "x",
# so that TEX rhymes with the word blecchhh. It's the "ch" sound in
# Scottish words like loch or German words like ach; it's a Spanish
# "j" and a Russian "kh". When you say it properly to your computer,
# the terminal may become slightly moist.
# # On the other hand you might find it more comfortable to pronounce
# TEX as a Texan would and to shrug off all this high-falutin'
# nonsense about beauty and quality. Go ahead and do what you want,
# the computer won't mind.

Now I assembled that passage from Google Books search-result snippets,
so I might have skipped some words. But it matches what I remember
from reading the book in about 1979: he described two pronunciations,
but cheerfully declined to prescribe one.

I believe this book was later expanded or rewritten as "The TeXBook" and
along the way it was changed so that it did prescribe a pronunciation.
Oh well.
--
Mark Brader, Toronto | "The three dots '...' here suppress a lot of detail
msb@vex.net | -- maybe I should have used four dots." -- Knuth

My text in this article is in the public domain.

* (Mark Brader) <_Oqdnc50sZx-hwr_nZ2dnUU7-IHNnZ2d @giganews.com> :
Wrote on Wed, 01 Jun 2022 02:53:07 -0500:
> What Knuth actually wrote in "Tau Epsilon Chi, a System for
> Technical Text" appears to have been:
>
> # Insiders pronounce the x of TEX as a Greek chi, not as an "x",
> # so that TEX rhymes with the word blecchhh. It's the "ch" sound in
> # Scottish words like loch or German words like ach; it's a Spanish
> # "j" and a Russian "kh". When you say it properly to your computer,
> # the terminal may become slightly moist.

How would on describe this in terms of Hebrew?

> #
> # On the other hand you might find it more comfortable to pronounce
> # TEX as a Texan would and to shrug off all this high-falutin'
> # nonsense about beauty and quality. Go ahead and do what you want,
> # the computer won't mind.
>
> Now I assembled that passage from Google Books search-result snippets,
> so I might have skipped some words. But it matches what I remember
> from reading the book in about 1979: he described two pronunciations,
> but cheerfully declined to prescribe one.
>
> I believe this book was later expanded or rewritten as "The TeXBook" and
> along the way it was changed so that it did prescribe a pronunciation.
> Oh well.

He retains the first paragraph verbatim, but drops the high-falutin'
comment. The link to the current file is at

https://ctan.org/pkg/texbook?lang=en

In message <jfn1lvFgs2cU1@mid.individual.net> Athel Cornish-Bowden <acornish@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:
> On 2022-05-31 16:13:10 +0000, musika said:

>> On 31/05/2022 15:19, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, May 31, 2022 at 7:40:47 AM UTC-6, Peter Moylan wrote:
>>>> On 31/05/22 22:24, Stefan Ram wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> From my memory: A list of words that often are not
>>>>> pronounced like the person who coined them wanted.
>>>>>
>>>>> TeX: The inventor wanted [teX], but people often say [tek].
>>>>> GIF: [dZIf] / [gIf] (Wikipedia has a page "pronunciation of GIF".)
>>>>> UFO: ['jufoU] / [ju ef 'oU] (by Captain Edward J. Ruppelt)
>>>>>
>>>>> So, you can coin a term and dictate its spelling, but often
>>>>> not its pronunciation.
>>>>
>>>> quark.
>>>
>>> I don't pronounce it the way its inventor, or rather its applier
>>> to physics, wanted.
>>>
>> Rejoice.

> If you invent a pronunciation that ignores the way everybody speaks
> then your pronunciation won't be adopted. I assume that "The inventor
> wanted [teX]" means [tex], but [x] (German or Welsh ch, or Spanish j)
> is a sound that is virtually unknown in English. The only reasonably
> common word in which it occurs is "loch", and even that is often
> pronounced [lɔk].

I pronounce LaTeX like latex (| ˈleɪˌtɛks |) and not like Laytek, which
I have heard is the preferred pronunciation. However, since I have never
had to talk about LaTeX in any sort of professional or business
capacity, I am perfectly happy with my pronunciation, and I've only run
into a couple of people ever who object to it.

I've even heard people pronounce it Lay-text, which while it does not
fit the spelling, is certainly a more apt name.

(LaTeX is as close as I ever want to get to TeX)

--
"He has Van Gogh's ear for music." - Billy Wilder

On 2022-06-01 12:36:01 +0000, Lewis said:
>
> [ … ]
>
> (LaTeX is as close as I ever want to get to TeX)

Likewise

--
Athel -- French and British, living mainly in England until 1987.

In message <t76t6o$3sf$1@dont-email.me> Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
> On 01/06/22 00:19, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>> On Tuesday, May 31, 2022 at 7:40:47 AM UTC-6, Peter Moylan wrote:
>>> On 31/05/22 22:24, Stefan Ram wrote:
>>>
>>>> From my memory: A list of words that often are not
>>>> pronounced like the person who coined them wanted.
>>>>
>>>> TeX: The inventor wanted [teX], but people often say [tek].
>>>> GIF: [dZIf] / [gIf] (Wikipedia has a page "pronunciation of GIF".)
>>>> UFO: ['jufoU] / [ju ef 'oU] (by Captain Edward J. Ruppelt)
>>>>
>>>> So, you can coin a term and dictate its spelling, but often
>>>> not its pronunciation.
>>>
>>> quark.
>>
>> I don't pronounce it the way its inventor, or rather its applier
>> to physics, wanted.

> Nor I. Nor most people, I imagine. For me it rhymes with spark, not splork.

The TV show is Quark as in qwark, the particle and the character on
Start Trek is more like qwork (rhymes with spork, not spark).

--
Oh and I could be a genius if I just put my mind to it And I, I could
do anything if only I could get 'round to it.

On 31/05/2022 15:40, Peter Moylan wrote:
> On 31/05/22 22:24, Stefan Ram wrote:
>
>>    From my memory: A list of words that often are not
>>    pronounced like the person who coined them wanted.
>>
>>    TeX: The inventor wanted [teX], but people often say [tek].
>>    GIF: [dZIf] / [gIf] (Wikipedia has a page "pronunciation of GIF".)
>>    UFO: ['jufoU] / [ju ef 'oU] (by Captain Edward J. Ruppelt)
>>
>>    So, you can coin a term and dictate its spelling, but often
>>    not its pronunciation.
>
> quark.
>

gif

Wed, 01 Jun 2022 15:01:41 +0530: Madhu <enometh@meer.net> scribeva:

>* (Mark Brader) <_Oqdnc50sZx-hwr_nZ2dnUU7-IHNnZ2d @giganews.com> :
>Wrote on Wed, 01 Jun 2022 02:53:07 -0500:
>> What Knuth actually wrote in "Tau Epsilon Chi, a System for
>> Technical Text" appears to have been:
>>
>> # Insiders pronounce the x of TEX as a Greek chi, not as an "x",
>> # so that TEX rhymes with the word blecchhh. It's the "ch" sound in
>> # Scottish words like loch or German words like ach; it's a Spanish
>> # "j" and a Russian "kh". When you say it properly to your computer,
>> # the terminal may become slightly moist.
>
>How would on describe this in terms of Hebrew?

Chet or khaf.
(Assuming modern Hebrew.)

--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com

On Wednesday, June 1, 2022 at 5:31:46 AM UTC-4, Madhu wrote:
> * (Mark Brader) <_Oqdnc50sZx-hwr_nZ2dnUU7-IHNnZ2d @giganews.com> :
> Wrote on Wed, 01 Jun 2022 02:53:07 -0500:
> > What Knuth actually wrote in "Tau Epsilon Chi, a System for
> > Technical Text" appears to have been:
> >
> > # Insiders pronounce the x of TEX as a Greek chi, not as an "x",
> > # so that TEX rhymes with the word blecchhh. It's the "ch" sound in
> > # Scottish words like loch or German words like ach; it's a Spanish
> > # "j" and a Russian "kh". When you say it properly to your computer,
> > # the terminal may become slightly moist.
>
> How would on describe this in terms of Hebrew?

Biblical Hebrew, kaf-rafe (not chet).

I have no truck with those computer-geek substitutes for _efficient_
word processors (I don't deal with math notation), but when I see
the words here I interpret them as [tek] as in "tech (support)" and
[leyteks] as in "Latex (gloves)."

Though I will point out that I retyped Chomsky's Master's Thesis,
"The Morphophonemics of Modern Hebrew" (Penn, 1951), entirely
in MSWord, producing the complex nested bracketings by writing
the code for the bracketings, not trying to use its "Equations" tool.
(I needed to quote passages in my article for the Konrad Koerner
Festschrift. *Chomskyan (R)evolutions* [Benjamins, 2010].)

> > # On the other hand you might find it more comfortable to pronounce
> > # TEX as a Texan would and to shrug off all this high-falutin'
> > # nonsense about beauty and quality. Go ahead and do what you want,
> > # the computer won't mind.
> >
> > Now I assembled that passage from Google Books search-result snippets,
> > so I might have skipped some words. But it matches what I remember
> > from reading the book in about 1979: he described two pronunciations,
> > but cheerfully declined to prescribe one.
> >
> > I believe this book was later expanded or rewritten as "The TeXBook" and
> > along the way it was changed so that it did prescribe a pronunciation.
> > Oh well.
>
> He retains the first paragraph verbatim, but drops the high-falutin'
> comment. The link to the current file is at
>
> https://ctan.org/pkg/texbook?lang=en

On 2022-06-01 12:39:24 +0000, Lewis said:

> In message <t76t6o$3sf$1@dont-email.me> Peter Moylan
> <peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
>> On 01/06/22 00:19, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, May 31, 2022 at 7:40:47 AM UTC-6, Peter Moylan wrote:
>>>> On 31/05/22 22:24, Stefan Ram wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> From my memory: A list of words that often are not
>>>>> pronounced like the person who coined them wanted.
>>>>>
>>>>> TeX: The inventor wanted [teX], but people often say [tek].
>>>>> GIF: [dZIf] / [gIf] (Wikipedia has a page "pronunciation of GIF".)
>>>>> UFO: ['jufoU] / [ju ef 'oU] (by Captain Edward J. Ruppelt)
>>>>>
>>>>> So, you can coin a term and dictate its spelling, but often
>>>>> not its pronunciation.
>>>>
>>>> quark.
>>>
>>> I don't pronounce it the way its inventor, or rather its applier
>>> to physics, wanted.
>
>> Nor I. Nor most people, I imagine. For me it rhymes with spark, not splork.
>
> The TV show is Quark as in qwark, the particle and the character on
> Start Trek is more like qwork (rhymes with spork, not spark).

https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/quark: Apparently Murray
Gell-Mann invented the word quork before he saw James Joyce's lines,
after he changed the spelling but not the pronunciation.

--
Athel -- French and British, living mainly in England until 1987.

"Lewis":
> The TV show is Quark as in qwark, the particle and the character on
> Start Trek is more like qwork (rhymes with spork, not spark).

The "Star Trek: Deep Space Nine" character is Quark rhyming with spark.
Some of the *other* characters habitually mispronounce his name.
--
Mark Brader, Toronto | "No matter how much you push the envelope,
msb@vex.net | it'll still be stationery."

* Mark Brader:

> Stefan Ram:
>>>>> TeX: The inventor wanted [teX], but people often say [tek].
>
> Peter Moylan:
>> I thought that Knuth wanted [tEk], but many people say [tEks].
>
> What Knuth actually wrote in "Tau Epsilon Chi, a System for
> Technical Text" appears to have been:
>
> # Insiders pronounce the x of TEX as a Greek chi, not as an "x",
> # so that TEX rhymes with the word blecchhh. It's the "ch" sound in
> # Scottish words like loch or German words like ach; it's a Spanish
> # "j" and a Russian "kh". When you say it properly to your computer,
> # the terminal may become slightly moist.

Interestingly, most Germans say it with the ich-sound, in my experience.
Actually, not surprising, because they're just following standard
pronunciation rules, which are similar to those for hard and soft c and
g in various languages.

--
Reed: It can't be ethical to cause a patient this much pain.
Phlox: It's unethical to harm a patient. I can inflict as
much pain as I like.
-- ST ENT, S02E04

* Mark Brader:

> "Lewis":
>> The TV show is Quark as in qwark, the particle and the character on
>> Start Trek is more like qwork (rhymes with spork, not spark).
>
> The "Star Trek: Deep Space Nine" character is Quark rhyming with spark.
> Some of the *other* characters habitually mispronounce his name.

Source? I don't remember ever hearing his name pronounced rhyming with
spark. His family members, at least, can be expected to do it right.

But it's also possible that I have difficulty hearing the difference in
some accents.

--
Nobody's God says hate your neighbor
Even if the neighbor doesn't believe in God
Put aside your religion do your God a favor
-- The Roches, Everyone is Good

On 2022-06-02 15:19, Quinn C wrote:
> * Mark Brader:
>
>> "Lewis":
>>> The TV show is Quark as in qwark, the particle and the character on
>>> Start Trek is more like qwork (rhymes with spork, not spark).
>>
>> The "Star Trek: Deep Space Nine" character is Quark rhyming with spark.
>> Some of the *other* characters habitually mispronounce his name.
>
> Source? I don't remember ever hearing his name pronounced rhyming with
> spark. His family members, at least, can be expected to do it right.
>
> But it's also possible that I have difficulty hearing the difference in
> some accents.

It didn't take me long to find both pronunciations via YouTube.
Personally, I tend toward 'kwork '.

--
A pessimist's blood type is always B-negative.

* lar3ryca:

> On 2022-06-02 15:19, Quinn C wrote:
>> * Mark Brader:
>>
>>> "Lewis":
>>>> The TV show is Quark as in qwark, the particle and the character on
>>>> Start Trek is more like qwork (rhymes with spork, not spark).
>>>
>>> The "Star Trek: Deep Space Nine" character is Quark rhyming with spark.
>>> Some of the *other* characters habitually mispronounce his name.
>>
>> Source? I don't remember ever hearing his name pronounced rhyming with
>> spark. His family members, at least, can be expected to do it right.
>>
>> But it's also possible that I have difficulty hearing the difference in
>> some accents.
>
> It didn't take me long to find both pronunciations via YouTube.
> Personally, I tend toward 'kwork '.

I did not, in a few attempts. One ambiguous pronunciation, at best (from
Sisko; Odo, Kira, O'Brien, Garak and two non-related Ferengi all said
"kwork".)

I should maybe rewrite my last sentence: It's likely that I'd interpret
one person saying it this way and one person the other way as just an
accent difference between them. I may have to look out for rhyming words
said by the same person to be sure what they rhyme it with.

--
Quinn C
My pronouns are they/them
(or other gender-neutral ones)

On 2022-06-03 06:54, Quinn C wrote:
> * lar3ryca:
>
>> On 2022-06-02 15:19, Quinn C wrote:
>>> * Mark Brader:
>>>
>>>> "Lewis":
>>>>> The TV show is Quark as in qwark, the particle and the character on
>>>>> Start Trek is more like qwork (rhymes with spork, not spark).
>>>>
>>>> The "Star Trek: Deep Space Nine" character is Quark rhyming with spark.
>>>> Some of the *other* characters habitually mispronounce his name.
>>>
>>> Source? I don't remember ever hearing his name pronounced rhyming with
>>> spark. His family members, at least, can be expected to do it right.
>>>
>>> But it's also possible that I have difficulty hearing the difference in
>>> some accents.
>>
>> It didn't take me long to find both pronunciations via YouTube.
>> Personally, I tend toward 'kwork '.
>
> I did not, in a few attempts. One ambiguous pronunciation, at best (from
> Sisko; Odo, Kira, O'Brien, Garak and two non-related Ferengi all said
> "kwork".)
>
> I should maybe rewrite my last sentence: It's likely that I'd interpret
> one person saying it this way and one person the other way as just an
> accent difference between them. I may have to look out for rhyming words
> said by the same person to be sure what they rhyme it with.

I listened to https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8VjU-mufCzw

The following shows what I hear it rhyming with

0:25 - the jingle on the monitor, park'
1:20 - Kira, 'park'
2:14 - Odo, 'cork'
3:10 - Kira -between the two

--
All roght, whi swotched my keytips ariund?

Athel Cornish-Bowden <acornish@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:

> On 2022-06-01 12:36:01 +0000, Lewis said:
> >
> > [ … ]
> >
> > (LaTeX is as close as I ever want to get to TeX)
>
> Likewise

Disliked it from the beginning.
It is overhead on overhead on overhead,
and (at least in the beginning) full of errors.
It took the coordinated effort of a great many people
to get it more or less right.

Jan
(was just a poor plain TeXnician)