One week after Huawei's announcement on its Mate60 Pro, questions were raised and seems to be answered.

https://asiatimes.com/2023/09/smic-bypasses-us-curbs-to-make-7nm-chips/

"After Huawei unexpectedly announced on August 29 its plan to sell the Mate60 Pro, some analysts had speculated that the phone’s central processing unit (CPU) chipset, the Kirin 9000s, could have been made either by TSMC before the US curbs took effect in September 2020 or by SMIC with its latest technology.

The latest analysis shows that it is the latter case: SMIC has already developed the N+2 processing knowhow to use deep-ultraviolet (DUV) lithography to make high-energy 7nm chips.
....
Loopholes or compromises?
....
Firstly, Liang, a former TSMC and Samsung executive, can continue to work for SMIC as he is Taiwanese, not American. Secondly, the US government did not put enough pressure on the Netherlands to stop ASML from shipping DUV lithography to China over the few three years, or to monitor the resale of its equipment.

Earlier this year, Taiwanese media reported that Huawei and SMIC had started acquiring secondhand DUV lithography domestically, mainly from closed foundries.

Taiwanese tech analyst Chai Huan-shin said the US only requested ASML and Tokyo Electron Limited to restrict their shipments to China but did not stop chipmakers from selling their equipment. Chai said that loophole made it possible for China to accumulate enough DUV lithography to make 7nm chips.
....
‘2035CN’

The apparently now-resolved questions of when the Mate60 Pro’s chipset was made and by whom arose when a Chinese gadget expert surnamed Yang last week found a “2035CN” label on the Kirin 9000s chip.

One theory was that the designation meant the chip had been produced in the 35th week of 2020 in China, a week before TSMC stopped making chips for HiSilicon on September 15 that year. "

However, a Shenzhen-based technology expert surnamed Bai says on his YouTube channel that the “2035CN” label was probably made to confuse people or mark a special day. In fact, China has been promoting the goal of fully digitalizing its manufacturing sector by 2035.

Bai also says he is not surprised that SMIC could achieve the N+2 technology, which had been achieved by TSMC seven years ago. He says the breakthrough was a result of an improvement in China’s electronic design automation (EDA) software.

He says it is possible that China can make 5nm or smaller chips with self-developed EUV lithography some years from now."

On Thursday, September 7, 2023 at 11:31:25 AM UTC-4, ltlee1 wrote:
> One week after Huawei's announcement on its Mate60 Pro, questions were raised and seems to be answered.
>
> https://asiatimes.com/2023/09/smic-bypasses-us-curbs-to-make-7nm-chips/
>
> "After Huawei unexpectedly announced on August 29 its plan to sell the Mate60 Pro, some analysts had speculated that the phone’s central processing unit (CPU) chipset, the Kirin 9000s, could have been made either by TSMC before the US curbs took effect in September 2020 or by SMIC with its latest technology.
>
> The latest analysis shows that it is the latter case: SMIC has already developed the N+2 processing knowhow to use deep-ultraviolet (DUV) lithography to make high-energy 7nm chips.
> ...
> Loopholes or compromises?
> ...
> Firstly, Liang, a former TSMC and Samsung executive, can continue to work for SMIC as he is Taiwanese, not American. Secondly, the US government did not put enough pressure on the Netherlands to stop ASML from shipping DUV lithography to China over the few three years, or to monitor the resale of its equipment.
>
> Earlier this year, Taiwanese media reported that Huawei and SMIC had started acquiring secondhand DUV lithography domestically, mainly from closed foundries.
>
> Taiwanese tech analyst Chai Huan-shin said the US only requested ASML and Tokyo Electron Limited to restrict their shipments to China but did not stop chipmakers from selling their equipment. Chai said that loophole made it possible for China to accumulate enough DUV lithography to make 7nm chips.
> ...
> ‘2035CN’
>
> The apparently now-resolved questions of when the Mate60 Pro’s chipset was made and by whom arose when a Chinese gadget expert surnamed Yang last week found a “2035CN” label on the Kirin 9000s chip.
>
> One theory was that the designation meant the chip had been produced in the 35th week of 2020 in China, a week before TSMC stopped making chips for HiSilicon on September 15 that year. "
>
> However, a Shenzhen-based technology expert surnamed Bai says on his YouTube channel that the “2035CN” label was probably made to confuse people or mark a special day. In fact, China has been promoting the goal of fully digitalizing its manufacturing sector by 2035.
>
> Bai also says he is not surprised that SMIC could achieve the N+2 technology, which had been achieved by TSMC seven years ago. He says the breakthrough was a result of an improvement in China’s electronic design automation (EDA) software.
>
> He says it is possible that China can make 5nm or smaller chips with self-developed EUV lithography some years from now."

Looks like Peter Wennink also responded to the Kirin chip when interviewed during a local TV show some days ago.

https://baijiahao.baidu.com/s?id=1776460258403657989
"“完全孤立中国是没有希望的。如果我们不分享技术，他们就会自己去研究。”日前，荷兰光刻机巨头阿斯麦（ASML）
CEO温彼得（Peter Wennink）在当地电视节目Nieuwsuur上说道。

“中国有14亿人，其中很多人都很聪明。他们会提出我们还没想到的解决方案。你在迫使他们变得非常创新。”温彼得
认为，试图通过禁止技术移民和出口管制等方式孤立中国，实际上会削弱西方自己。"

On Friday, September 8, 2023 at 12:07:42 PM UTC-4, ltlee1 wrote:
> On Thursday, September 7, 2023 at 11:31:25 AM UTC-4, ltlee1 wrote:
> > One week after Huawei's announcement on its Mate60 Pro, questions were raised and seems to be answered.
> >
> > https://asiatimes.com/2023/09/smic-bypasses-us-curbs-to-make-7nm-chips/
> >
> > "After Huawei unexpectedly announced on August 29 its plan to sell the Mate60 Pro, some analysts had speculated that the phone’s central processing unit (CPU) chipset, the Kirin 9000s, could have been made either by TSMC before the US curbs took effect in September 2020 or by SMIC with its latest technology.
> >
> > The latest analysis shows that it is the latter case: SMIC has already developed the N+2 processing knowhow to use deep-ultraviolet (DUV) lithography to make high-energy 7nm chips.
> > ...
> > Loopholes or compromises?
> > ...
> > Firstly, Liang, a former TSMC and Samsung executive, can continue to work for SMIC as he is Taiwanese, not American. Secondly, the US government did not put enough pressure on the Netherlands to stop ASML from shipping DUV lithography to China over the few three years, or to monitor the resale of its equipment.
> >
> > Earlier this year, Taiwanese media reported that Huawei and SMIC had started acquiring secondhand DUV lithography domestically, mainly from closed foundries.
> >
> > Taiwanese tech analyst Chai Huan-shin said the US only requested ASML and Tokyo Electron Limited to restrict their shipments to China but did not stop chipmakers from selling their equipment. Chai said that loophole made it possible for China to accumulate enough DUV lithography to make 7nm chips.
> > ...
> > ‘2035CN’
> >
> > The apparently now-resolved questions of when the Mate60 Pro’s chipset was made and by whom arose when a Chinese gadget expert surnamed Yang last week found a “2035CN” label on the Kirin 9000s chip..
> >
> > One theory was that the designation meant the chip had been produced in the 35th week of 2020 in China, a week before TSMC stopped making chips for HiSilicon on September 15 that year. "
> >
> > However, a Shenzhen-based technology expert surnamed Bai says on his YouTube channel that the “2035CN” label was probably made to confuse people or mark a special day. In fact, China has been promoting the goal of fully digitalizing its manufacturing sector by 2035.
> >
> > Bai also says he is not surprised that SMIC could achieve the N+2 technology, which had been achieved by TSMC seven years ago. He says the breakthrough was a result of an improvement in China’s electronic design automation (EDA) software.
> >
> > He says it is possible that China can make 5nm or smaller chips with self-developed EUV lithography some years from now."
> Looks like Peter Wennink also responded to the Kirin chip when interviewed during a local TV show some days ago.
>
> https://baijiahao.baidu.com/s?id=1776460258403657989
> "“完全孤立中国是没有希望的。如果我们不分享技术，他们就会自己去研究。”日前，荷兰光刻机巨头阿斯麦（ASML）
> CEO温彼得（Peter Wennink）在当地电视节目Nieuwsuur上说道。
>
> “中国有14亿人，其中很多人都很聪明。他们会提出我们还没想到的解决方案。你在迫使他们变得非常创新。”温彼得
> 认为，试图通过禁止技术移民和出口管制等方式孤立中国，实际上会削弱西方自己。"

Peter Wennink is perhaps the best person to make the comments. He has been a high ranking ASML official since at
least 1999 is in the front row seat watching the first Thucydides struggle to produce the smallest chip in which TSMC
dethrones Intel. It began with:

Maybe ASML underestimated how hard this is...

"DUV lithography is old, dating back to the 1980s. For many years, it was not a limiting factor in the ever-
shrinking chip geometries that powered the heyday of Moore's Law. But as the 2000s approached and with
them the transition from 130nm to 65nm process chips, the fundamental problem with DUV became more
pressing. Electromagnetic theory suggested it wasn't practical to make things on a chip that was smaller
than the wavelength of light used to make them. But that's OK, boffins reasoned, they would just move to a
smaller wavelength. The industry waited to move to EUV and its instant 14x leap in tinyness.

And it continued to wait. EUV was much harder than anyone expected. It ended up arriving 20 years late,
throwing grit into the vaseline for everyone. In its absence, enormous amounts of ingenuity was poured into
perverting the laws of physics as far as they could go. TSMC's N7 was the pinnacle of that process, an
amazing, tottering pile of near-magic photon-wrangling audacity, a melange of multiple overlapping mask
exposures and complex production tricks. That it could work at all was amazing, that it could do good yields?
Unbelievable."

https://www.theregister.com/2022/08/01/column_7nm_chips_china/

On Thursday, September 7, 2023 at 8:31:25 AM UTC-7, ltlee1 wrote:
> One week after Huawei's announcement on its Mate60 Pro, questions were raised and seems to be answered.
>
> https://asiatimes.com/2023/09/smic-bypasses-us-curbs-to-make-7nm-chips/
>
> "After Huawei unexpectedly announced on August 29 its plan to sell the Mate60 Pro, some analysts had speculated that the phone’s central processing unit (CPU) chipset, the Kirin 9000s, could have been made either by TSMC before the US curbs took effect in September 2020 or by SMIC with its latest technology.
>
> The latest analysis shows that it is the latter case: SMIC has already developed the N+2 processing knowhow to use deep-ultraviolet (DUV) lithography to make high-energy 7nm chips.
> ...
> Loopholes or compromises?
> ...
> Firstly, Liang, a former TSMC and Samsung executive, can continue to work for SMIC as he is Taiwanese, not American. Secondly, the US government did not put enough pressure on the Netherlands to stop ASML from shipping DUV lithography to China over the few three years, or to monitor the resale of its equipment.
>
> Earlier this year, Taiwanese media reported that Huawei and SMIC had started acquiring secondhand DUV lithography domestically, mainly from closed foundries.
>
> Taiwanese tech analyst Chai Huan-shin said the US only requested ASML and Tokyo Electron Limited to restrict their shipments to China but did not stop chipmakers from selling their equipment. Chai said that loophole made it possible for China to accumulate enough DUV lithography to make 7nm chips.
> ...
> ‘2035CN’
>
> The apparently now-resolved questions of when the Mate60 Pro’s chipset was made and by whom arose when a Chinese gadget expert surnamed Yang last week found a “2035CN” label on the Kirin 9000s chip.
>
> One theory was that the designation meant the chip had been produced in the 35th week of 2020 in China, a week before TSMC stopped making chips for HiSilicon on September 15 that year. "
>
> However, a Shenzhen-based technology expert surnamed Bai says on his YouTube channel that the “2035CN” label was probably made to confuse people or mark a special day. In fact, China has been promoting the goal of fully digitalizing its manufacturing sector by 2035.
>
> Bai also says he is not surprised that SMIC could achieve the N+2 technology, which had been achieved by TSMC seven years ago. He says the breakthrough was a result of an improvement in China’s electronic design automation (EDA) software.

SMIC got around the export ban somehow. No way they did that just with homegrown EDA.

On Saturday, September 9, 2023 at 11:27:52 AM UTC-4, bmoore wrote:
> On Thursday, September 7, 2023 at 8:31:25 AM UTC-7, ltlee1 wrote:
> > One week after Huawei's announcement on its Mate60 Pro, questions were raised and seems to be answered.
> >
> > https://asiatimes.com/2023/09/smic-bypasses-us-curbs-to-make-7nm-chips/
> >
> > "After Huawei unexpectedly announced on August 29 its plan to sell the Mate60 Pro, some analysts had speculated that the phone’s central processing unit (CPU) chipset, the Kirin 9000s, could have been made either by TSMC before the US curbs took effect in September 2020 or by SMIC with its latest technology.
> >
> > The latest analysis shows that it is the latter case: SMIC has already developed the N+2 processing knowhow to use deep-ultraviolet (DUV) lithography to make high-energy 7nm chips.
> > ...
> > Loopholes or compromises?
> > ...
> > Firstly, Liang, a former TSMC and Samsung executive, can continue to work for SMIC as he is Taiwanese, not American. Secondly, the US government did not put enough pressure on the Netherlands to stop ASML from shipping DUV lithography to China over the few three years, or to monitor the resale of its equipment.
> >
> > Earlier this year, Taiwanese media reported that Huawei and SMIC had started acquiring secondhand DUV lithography domestically, mainly from closed foundries.
> >
> > Taiwanese tech analyst Chai Huan-shin said the US only requested ASML and Tokyo Electron Limited to restrict their shipments to China but did not stop chipmakers from selling their equipment. Chai said that loophole made it possible for China to accumulate enough DUV lithography to make 7nm chips.
> > ...
> > ‘2035CN’
> >
> > The apparently now-resolved questions of when the Mate60 Pro’s chipset was made and by whom arose when a Chinese gadget expert surnamed Yang last week found a “2035CN” label on the Kirin 9000s chip..
> >
> > One theory was that the designation meant the chip had been produced in the 35th week of 2020 in China, a week before TSMC stopped making chips for HiSilicon on September 15 that year. "
> >
> > However, a Shenzhen-based technology expert surnamed Bai says on his YouTube channel that the “2035CN” label was probably made to confuse people or mark a special day. In fact, China has been promoting the goal of fully digitalizing its manufacturing sector by 2035.
> >
> > Bai also says he is not surprised that SMIC could achieve the N+2 technology, which had been achieved by TSMC seven years ago. He says the breakthrough was a result of an improvement in China’s electronic design automation (EDA) software.
> SMIC got around the export ban somehow. No way they did that just with homegrown EDA.

Intel probably also thought they were the best. And no way TSMC could be better in making smaller and smaller chips.
Yet, Intel had to struggle with its 10 nm production. And again with its 7 nm process that it has to outsource the production.

"On the earnings call, Intel CEO Bob Swan said the company had identified a "defect mode" in its 7nm
process that caused yield degradation issues. As a result, Intel has invested in "contingency plans,"
which Swan later defined as including using third-party foundries. The company will also use external
third-party foundries for its forthcoming 7nm Ponte Vecchio GPUs, the company's first graphics chips.
Ponte Vecchio comes as a chiplet-based design, and Swan clarified that production for some of the
chiplets (tiles) will be outsourced to third parties. Swan noted the GPUs will come in late 2021 or early
2022, portending a delay beyond the original schedule for a 2021 launch in the exascale Aurora
supercomputer.

Intel's first 7nm server CPUs (Granite Rapids) will arrive in 2023, which is later than listed in earlier roadmaps
that projected a launch in 2022. That timeline is concerning in the face of AMD's continued execution with its
EPYC data center chips – AMD's roadmaps outline its 5nm Genoa processors coming to market before the
end of 2022. Swan also said that Intel's first 7nm processors will debut for the client market, meaning chips
targeting either desktop PCs or laptops. Intel's first 10nm desktop CPUs, Alder Lake, will arrive in the second
half of 2021.

For perspective, rival foundry TSMC plans to be on the 3nm node in the same time frame as Intel's new schedule
for 7nm."

https://www.tomshardware.com/news/intel-announces-delay-to-7nm-processors-now-one-year-behind-expectations

On Saturday, September 9, 2023 at 11:01:15 AM UTC-7, ltlee1 wrote:
> On Saturday, September 9, 2023 at 11:27:52 AM UTC-4, bmoore wrote:
> > On Thursday, September 7, 2023 at 8:31:25 AM UTC-7, ltlee1 wrote:
> > > One week after Huawei's announcement on its Mate60 Pro, questions were raised and seems to be answered.
> > >
> > > https://asiatimes.com/2023/09/smic-bypasses-us-curbs-to-make-7nm-chips/
> > >
> > > "After Huawei unexpectedly announced on August 29 its plan to sell the Mate60 Pro, some analysts had speculated that the phone’s central processing unit (CPU) chipset, the Kirin 9000s, could have been made either by TSMC before the US curbs took effect in September 2020 or by SMIC with its latest technology.
> > >
> > > The latest analysis shows that it is the latter case: SMIC has already developed the N+2 processing knowhow to use deep-ultraviolet (DUV) lithography to make high-energy 7nm chips.
> > > ...
> > > Loopholes or compromises?
> > > ...
> > > Firstly, Liang, a former TSMC and Samsung executive, can continue to work for SMIC as he is Taiwanese, not American. Secondly, the US government did not put enough pressure on the Netherlands to stop ASML from shipping DUV lithography to China over the few three years, or to monitor the resale of its equipment.
> > >
> > > Earlier this year, Taiwanese media reported that Huawei and SMIC had started acquiring secondhand DUV lithography domestically, mainly from closed foundries.
> > >
> > > Taiwanese tech analyst Chai Huan-shin said the US only requested ASML and Tokyo Electron Limited to restrict their shipments to China but did not stop chipmakers from selling their equipment. Chai said that loophole made it possible for China to accumulate enough DUV lithography to make 7nm chips.
> > > ...
> > > ‘2035CN’
> > >
> > > The apparently now-resolved questions of when the Mate60 Pro’s chipset was made and by whom arose when a Chinese gadget expert surnamed Yang last week found a “2035CN” label on the Kirin 9000s chip.
> > >
> > > One theory was that the designation meant the chip had been produced in the 35th week of 2020 in China, a week before TSMC stopped making chips for HiSilicon on September 15 that year. "
> > >
> > > However, a Shenzhen-based technology expert surnamed Bai says on his YouTube channel that the “2035CN” label was probably made to confuse people or mark a special day. In fact, China has been promoting the goal of fully digitalizing its manufacturing sector by 2035.
> > >
> > > Bai also says he is not surprised that SMIC could achieve the N+2 technology, which had been achieved by TSMC seven years ago. He says the breakthrough was a result of an improvement in China’s electronic design automation (EDA) software.
> > SMIC got around the export ban somehow. No way they did that just with homegrown EDA.
> Intel probably also thought they were the best. And no way TSMC could be better in making smaller and smaller chips.

TSMC uses American-supplied EDA.

> Yet, Intel had to struggle with its 10 nm production. And again with its 7 nm process that it has to outsource the production.
>
> "On the earnings call, Intel CEO Bob Swan said the company had identified a "defect mode" in its 7nm
> process that caused yield degradation issues. As a result, Intel has invested in "contingency plans,"
> which Swan later defined as including using third-party foundries. The company will also use external
> third-party foundries for its forthcoming 7nm Ponte Vecchio GPUs, the company's first graphics chips.
> Ponte Vecchio comes as a chiplet-based design, and Swan clarified that production for some of the
> chiplets (tiles) will be outsourced to third parties. Swan noted the GPUs will come in late 2021 or early
> 2022, portending a delay beyond the original schedule for a 2021 launch in the exascale Aurora
> supercomputer.
>
> Intel's first 7nm server CPUs (Granite Rapids) will arrive in 2023, which is later than listed in earlier roadmaps
> that projected a launch in 2022. That timeline is concerning in the face of AMD's continued execution with its
> EPYC data center chips – AMD's roadmaps outline its 5nm Genoa processors coming to market before the
> end of 2022. Swan also said that Intel's first 7nm processors will debut for the client market, meaning chips
> targeting either desktop PCs or laptops. Intel's first 10nm desktop CPUs, Alder Lake, will arrive in the second
> half of 2021.
>
> For perspective, rival foundry TSMC plans to be on the 3nm node in the same time frame as Intel's new schedule
> for 7nm."
>
> https://www.tomshardware.com/news/intel-announces-delay-to-7nm-processors-now-one-year-behind-expectations

On Sunday, September 10, 2023 at 11:44:11 AM UTC-4, bmoore wrote:
> On Saturday, September 9, 2023 at 11:01:15 AM UTC-7, ltlee1 wrote:
> > On Saturday, September 9, 2023 at 11:27:52 AM UTC-4, bmoore wrote:
> > > On Thursday, September 7, 2023 at 8:31:25 AM UTC-7, ltlee1 wrote:
> > > > One week after Huawei's announcement on its Mate60 Pro, questions were raised and seems to be answered.
> > > >
> > > > https://asiatimes.com/2023/09/smic-bypasses-us-curbs-to-make-7nm-chips/
> > > >
> > > > "After Huawei unexpectedly announced on August 29 its plan to sell the Mate60 Pro, some analysts had speculated that the phone’s central processing unit (CPU) chipset, the Kirin 9000s, could have been made either by TSMC before the US curbs took effect in September 2020 or by SMIC with its latest technology.
> > > >
> > > > The latest analysis shows that it is the latter case: SMIC has already developed the N+2 processing knowhow to use deep-ultraviolet (DUV) lithography to make high-energy 7nm chips.
> > > > ...
> > > > Loopholes or compromises?
> > > > ...
> > > > Firstly, Liang, a former TSMC and Samsung executive, can continue to work for SMIC as he is Taiwanese, not American. Secondly, the US government did not put enough pressure on the Netherlands to stop ASML from shipping DUV lithography to China over the few three years, or to monitor the resale of its equipment.
> > > >
> > > > Earlier this year, Taiwanese media reported that Huawei and SMIC had started acquiring secondhand DUV lithography domestically, mainly from closed foundries.
> > > >
> > > > Taiwanese tech analyst Chai Huan-shin said the US only requested ASML and Tokyo Electron Limited to restrict their shipments to China but did not stop chipmakers from selling their equipment. Chai said that loophole made it possible for China to accumulate enough DUV lithography to make 7nm chips.
> > > > ...
> > > > ‘2035CN’
> > > >
> > > > The apparently now-resolved questions of when the Mate60 Pro’s chipset was made and by whom arose when a Chinese gadget expert surnamed Yang last week found a “2035CN” label on the Kirin 9000s chip.
> > > >
> > > > One theory was that the designation meant the chip had been produced in the 35th week of 2020 in China, a week before TSMC stopped making chips for HiSilicon on September 15 that year. "
> > > >
> > > > However, a Shenzhen-based technology expert surnamed Bai says on his YouTube channel that the “2035CN” label was probably made to confuse people or mark a special day. In fact, China has been promoting the goal of fully digitalizing its manufacturing sector by 2035.
> > > >
> > > > Bai also says he is not surprised that SMIC could achieve the N+2 technology, which had been achieved by TSMC seven years ago. He says the breakthrough was a result of an improvement in China’s electronic design automation (EDA) software.
> > > SMIC got around the export ban somehow. No way they did that just with homegrown EDA.
> > Intel probably also thought they were the best. And no way TSMC could be better in making smaller and smaller chips.
> TSMC uses American-supplied EDA.

So?
1. I am responding to your "No Way" claim.
2. In addition, American-supplied EDA does not mean 100% American technology based EDA.
TSMC and ASML could not supply China not because TSMC and ASML technology is 100%
American technology.
3. More important, many innovations are no more than common sense.

I had watched an old TV shows in which a group of US manufacturers had toured China, one of
them had noticed Chinese made dust pans did not have a bump and/or a dip which would minimize
trash from going back to the floor. His point was that made in China was still primitive. Of course, his
point was valid. Indeed, some Chinese made dust pans do have these features later. But the sophisticate
feature is still no more than common sense.

Going back to Peter Wennink's comments, during 20 years between DUV and EUV, he had to vacillate
back and forth multiple times between "No way any foundry could make smaller chips without the
EUV" and "Would the EUV come out to late?"

> > Yet, Intel had to struggle with its 10 nm production. And again with its 7 nm process that it has to outsource the production.
> >
> > "On the earnings call, Intel CEO Bob Swan said the company had identified a "defect mode" in its 7nm
> > process that caused yield degradation issues. As a result, Intel has invested in "contingency plans,"
> > which Swan later defined as including using third-party foundries. The company will also use external
> > third-party foundries for its forthcoming 7nm Ponte Vecchio GPUs, the company's first graphics chips.
> > Ponte Vecchio comes as a chiplet-based design, and Swan clarified that production for some of the
> > chiplets (tiles) will be outsourced to third parties. Swan noted the GPUs will come in late 2021 or early
> > 2022, portending a delay beyond the original schedule for a 2021 launch in the exascale Aurora
> > supercomputer.
> >
> > Intel's first 7nm server CPUs (Granite Rapids) will arrive in 2023, which is later than listed in earlier roadmaps
> > that projected a launch in 2022. That timeline is concerning in the face of AMD's continued execution with its
> > EPYC data center chips – AMD's roadmaps outline its 5nm Genoa processors coming to market before the
> > end of 2022. Swan also said that Intel's first 7nm processors will debut for the client market, meaning chips
> > targeting either desktop PCs or laptops. Intel's first 10nm desktop CPUs, Alder Lake, will arrive in the second
> > half of 2021.
> >
> > For perspective, rival foundry TSMC plans to be on the 3nm node in the same time frame as Intel's new schedule
> > for 7nm."
> >
> > https://www.tomshardware.com/news/intel-announces-delay-to-7nm-processors-now-one-year-behind-expectations

On Sunday, September 10, 2023 at 9:49:33 AM UTC-7, ltlee1 wrote:
> On Sunday, September 10, 2023 at 11:44:11 AM UTC-4, bmoore wrote:
> > On Saturday, September 9, 2023 at 11:01:15 AM UTC-7, ltlee1 wrote:
> > > On Saturday, September 9, 2023 at 11:27:52 AM UTC-4, bmoore wrote:
> > > > On Thursday, September 7, 2023 at 8:31:25 AM UTC-7, ltlee1 wrote:
> > > > > One week after Huawei's announcement on its Mate60 Pro, questions were raised and seems to be answered.
> > > > >
> > > > > https://asiatimes.com/2023/09/smic-bypasses-us-curbs-to-make-7nm-chips/
> > > > >
> > > > > "After Huawei unexpectedly announced on August 29 its plan to sell the Mate60 Pro, some analysts had speculated that the phone’s central processing unit (CPU) chipset, the Kirin 9000s, could have been made either by TSMC before the US curbs took effect in September 2020 or by SMIC with its latest technology.
> > > > >
> > > > > The latest analysis shows that it is the latter case: SMIC has already developed the N+2 processing knowhow to use deep-ultraviolet (DUV) lithography to make high-energy 7nm chips.
> > > > > ...
> > > > > Loopholes or compromises?
> > > > > ...
> > > > > Firstly, Liang, a former TSMC and Samsung executive, can continue to work for SMIC as he is Taiwanese, not American. Secondly, the US government did not put enough pressure on the Netherlands to stop ASML from shipping DUV lithography to China over the few three years, or to monitor the resale of its equipment.
> > > > >
> > > > > Earlier this year, Taiwanese media reported that Huawei and SMIC had started acquiring secondhand DUV lithography domestically, mainly from closed foundries.
> > > > >
> > > > > Taiwanese tech analyst Chai Huan-shin said the US only requested ASML and Tokyo Electron Limited to restrict their shipments to China but did not stop chipmakers from selling their equipment. Chai said that loophole made it possible for China to accumulate enough DUV lithography to make 7nm chips.
> > > > > ...
> > > > > ‘2035CN’
> > > > >
> > > > > The apparently now-resolved questions of when the Mate60 Pro’s chipset was made and by whom arose when a Chinese gadget expert surnamed Yang last week found a “2035CN” label on the Kirin 9000s chip.
> > > > >
> > > > > One theory was that the designation meant the chip had been produced in the 35th week of 2020 in China, a week before TSMC stopped making chips for HiSilicon on September 15 that year. "
> > > > >
> > > > > However, a Shenzhen-based technology expert surnamed Bai says on his YouTube channel that the “2035CN” label was probably made to confuse people or mark a special day. In fact, China has been promoting the goal of fully digitalizing its manufacturing sector by 2035.
> > > > >
> > > > > Bai also says he is not surprised that SMIC could achieve the N+2 technology, which had been achieved by TSMC seven years ago. He says the breakthrough was a result of an improvement in China’s electronic design automation (EDA) software.
> > > > SMIC got around the export ban somehow. No way they did that just with homegrown EDA.
> > > Intel probably also thought they were the best. And no way TSMC could be better in making smaller and smaller chips.
> > TSMC uses American-supplied EDA.
> So?

No way TSMC would have gotten to where they have without EDA from elsewhere, certainly not that quickly.

> 1. I am responding to your "No Way" claim.
> 2. In addition, American-supplied EDA does not mean 100% American technology based EDA.
> TSMC and ASML could not supply China not because TSMC and ASML technology is 100%
> American technology.
> 3. More important, many innovations are no more than common sense.
>
> I had watched an old TV shows in which a group of US manufacturers had toured China, one of
> them had noticed Chinese made dust pans did not have a bump and/or a dip which would minimize
> trash from going back to the floor. His point was that made in China was still primitive. Of course, his
> point was valid. Indeed, some Chinese made dust pans do have these features later. But the sophisticate
> feature is still no more than common sense.

EDA is not a dustpan. It is very sophisticated and is hard to develop, has evolved in the US over decades.

> Going back to Peter Wennink's comments, during 20 years between DUV and EUV, he had to vacillate
> back and forth multiple times between "No way any foundry could make smaller chips without the
> EUV" and "Would the EUV come out to late?"
> > > Yet, Intel had to struggle with its 10 nm production. And again with its 7 nm process that it has to outsource the production.
> > >
> > > "On the earnings call, Intel CEO Bob Swan said the company had identified a "defect mode" in its 7nm
> > > process that caused yield degradation issues. As a result, Intel has invested in "contingency plans,"
> > > which Swan later defined as including using third-party foundries. The company will also use external
> > > third-party foundries for its forthcoming 7nm Ponte Vecchio GPUs, the company's first graphics chips.
> > > Ponte Vecchio comes as a chiplet-based design, and Swan clarified that production for some of the
> > > chiplets (tiles) will be outsourced to third parties. Swan noted the GPUs will come in late 2021 or early
> > > 2022, portending a delay beyond the original schedule for a 2021 launch in the exascale Aurora
> > > supercomputer.
> > >
> > > Intel's first 7nm server CPUs (Granite Rapids) will arrive in 2023, which is later than listed in earlier roadmaps
> > > that projected a launch in 2022. That timeline is concerning in the face of AMD's continued execution with its
> > > EPYC data center chips – AMD's roadmaps outline its 5nm Genoa processors coming to market before the
> > > end of 2022. Swan also said that Intel's first 7nm processors will debut for the client market, meaning chips
> > > targeting either desktop PCs or laptops. Intel's first 10nm desktop CPUs, Alder Lake, will arrive in the second
> > > half of 2021.
> > >
> > > For perspective, rival foundry TSMC plans to be on the 3nm node in the same time frame as Intel's new schedule
> > > for 7nm."
> > >
> > > https://www.tomshardware.com/news/intel-announces-delay-to-7nm-processors-now-one-year-behind-expectations

On Sunday, September 10, 2023 at 2:04:23 PM UTC-4, bmoore wrote:
> On Sunday, September 10, 2023 at 9:49:33 AM UTC-7, ltlee1 wrote:
> > On Sunday, September 10, 2023 at 11:44:11 AM UTC-4, bmoore wrote:
> > > On Saturday, September 9, 2023 at 11:01:15 AM UTC-7, ltlee1 wrote:
> > > > On Saturday, September 9, 2023 at 11:27:52 AM UTC-4, bmoore wrote:
> > > > > On Thursday, September 7, 2023 at 8:31:25 AM UTC-7, ltlee1 wrote:
> > > > > > One week after Huawei's announcement on its Mate60 Pro, questions were raised and seems to be answered.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > https://asiatimes.com/2023/09/smic-bypasses-us-curbs-to-make-7nm-chips/
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "After Huawei unexpectedly announced on August 29 its plan to sell the Mate60 Pro, some analysts had speculated that the phone’s central processing unit (CPU) chipset, the Kirin 9000s, could have been made either by TSMC before the US curbs took effect in September 2020 or by SMIC with its latest technology.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The latest analysis shows that it is the latter case: SMIC has already developed the N+2 processing knowhow to use deep-ultraviolet (DUV) lithography to make high-energy 7nm chips.
> > > > > > ...
> > > > > > Loopholes or compromises?
> > > > > > ...
> > > > > > Firstly, Liang, a former TSMC and Samsung executive, can continue to work for SMIC as he is Taiwanese, not American. Secondly, the US government did not put enough pressure on the Netherlands to stop ASML from shipping DUV lithography to China over the few three years, or to monitor the resale of its equipment.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Earlier this year, Taiwanese media reported that Huawei and SMIC had started acquiring secondhand DUV lithography domestically, mainly from closed foundries.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Taiwanese tech analyst Chai Huan-shin said the US only requested ASML and Tokyo Electron Limited to restrict their shipments to China but did not stop chipmakers from selling their equipment. Chai said that loophole made it possible for China to accumulate enough DUV lithography to make 7nm chips.
> > > > > > ...
> > > > > > ‘2035CN’
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The apparently now-resolved questions of when the Mate60 Pro’s chipset was made and by whom arose when a Chinese gadget expert surnamed Yang last week found a “2035CN” label on the Kirin 9000s chip.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > One theory was that the designation meant the chip had been produced in the 35th week of 2020 in China, a week before TSMC stopped making chips for HiSilicon on September 15 that year. "
> > > > > >
> > > > > > However, a Shenzhen-based technology expert surnamed Bai says on his YouTube channel that the “2035CN” label was probably made to confuse people or mark a special day. In fact, China has been promoting the goal of fully digitalizing its manufacturing sector by 2035.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Bai also says he is not surprised that SMIC could achieve the N+2 technology, which had been achieved by TSMC seven years ago. He says the breakthrough was a result of an improvement in China’s electronic design automation (EDA) software.
> > > > > SMIC got around the export ban somehow. No way they did that just with homegrown EDA.
> > > > Intel probably also thought they were the best. And no way TSMC could be better in making smaller and smaller chips.
> > > TSMC uses American-supplied EDA.
> > So?
> No way TSMC would have gotten to where they have without EDA from elsewhere, certainly not that quickly.
> > 1. I am responding to your "No Way" claim.
> > 2. In addition, American-supplied EDA does not mean 100% American technology based EDA.
> > TSMC and ASML could not supply China not because TSMC and ASML technology is 100%
> > American technology.
> > 3. More important, many innovations are no more than common sense.
> >
> > I had watched an old TV shows in which a group of US manufacturers had toured China, one of
> > them had noticed Chinese made dust pans did not have a bump and/or a dip which would minimize
> > trash from going back to the floor. His point was that made in China was still primitive. Of course, his
> > point was valid. Indeed, some Chinese made dust pans do have these features later. But the sophisticate
> > feature is still no more than common sense.
> EDA is not a dustpan. It is very sophisticated and is hard to develop, has evolved in the US over decades.

Well, the "common" means different things in different circumstance.
How do people understand Einstein's theory of relative theory?
Answer: They have to spent years learning all the necessary mathematics and physics.
With the common background and hence the common sense, most could understand and then agree with
Einstein. And they readily identify who has and who lack the common background and the common sense.

High tech, like high physics, is only high to those without the necessary background and common sense.
The dust pan is used as an analogy.

> > Going back to Peter Wennink's comments, during 20 years between DUV and EUV, he had to vacillate
> > back and forth multiple times between "No way any foundry could make smaller chips without the
> > EUV" and "Would the EUV come out to late?"
> > > > Yet, Intel had to struggle with its 10 nm production. And again with its 7 nm process that it has to outsource the production.
> > > >
> > > > "On the earnings call, Intel CEO Bob Swan said the company had identified a "defect mode" in its 7nm
> > > > process that caused yield degradation issues. As a result, Intel has invested in "contingency plans,"
> > > > which Swan later defined as including using third-party foundries. The company will also use external
> > > > third-party foundries for its forthcoming 7nm Ponte Vecchio GPUs, the company's first graphics chips.
> > > > Ponte Vecchio comes as a chiplet-based design, and Swan clarified that production for some of the
> > > > chiplets (tiles) will be outsourced to third parties. Swan noted the GPUs will come in late 2021 or early
> > > > 2022, portending a delay beyond the original schedule for a 2021 launch in the exascale Aurora
> > > > supercomputer.
> > > >
> > > > Intel's first 7nm server CPUs (Granite Rapids) will arrive in 2023, which is later than listed in earlier roadmaps
> > > > that projected a launch in 2022. That timeline is concerning in the face of AMD's continued execution with its
> > > > EPYC data center chips – AMD's roadmaps outline its 5nm Genoa processors coming to market before the
> > > > end of 2022. Swan also said that Intel's first 7nm processors will debut for the client market, meaning chips
> > > > targeting either desktop PCs or laptops. Intel's first 10nm desktop CPUs, Alder Lake, will arrive in the second
> > > > half of 2021.
> > > >
> > > > For perspective, rival foundry TSMC plans to be on the 3nm node in the same time frame as Intel's new schedule
> > > > for 7nm."
> > > >
> > > > https://www.tomshardware.com/news/intel-announces-delay-to-7nm-processors-now-one-year-behind-expectations

On Sunday, September 10, 2023 at 2:56:11 PM UTC-7, ltlee1 wrote:
> On Sunday, September 10, 2023 at 2:04:23 PM UTC-4, bmoore wrote:
> > On Sunday, September 10, 2023 at 9:49:33 AM UTC-7, ltlee1 wrote:
> > > On Sunday, September 10, 2023 at 11:44:11 AM UTC-4, bmoore wrote:
> > > > On Saturday, September 9, 2023 at 11:01:15 AM UTC-7, ltlee1 wrote:
> > > > > On Saturday, September 9, 2023 at 11:27:52 AM UTC-4, bmoore wrote:
> > > > > > On Thursday, September 7, 2023 at 8:31:25 AM UTC-7, ltlee1 wrote:
> > > > > > > One week after Huawei's announcement on its Mate60 Pro, questions were raised and seems to be answered.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > https://asiatimes.com/2023/09/smic-bypasses-us-curbs-to-make-7nm-chips/
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "After Huawei unexpectedly announced on August 29 its plan to sell the Mate60 Pro, some analysts had speculated that the phone’s central processing unit (CPU) chipset, the Kirin 9000s, could have been made either by TSMC before the US curbs took effect in September 2020 or by SMIC with its latest technology.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The latest analysis shows that it is the latter case: SMIC has already developed the N+2 processing knowhow to use deep-ultraviolet (DUV) lithography to make high-energy 7nm chips.
> > > > > > > ...
> > > > > > > Loopholes or compromises?
> > > > > > > ...
> > > > > > > Firstly, Liang, a former TSMC and Samsung executive, can continue to work for SMIC as he is Taiwanese, not American. Secondly, the US government did not put enough pressure on the Netherlands to stop ASML from shipping DUV lithography to China over the few three years, or to monitor the resale of its equipment.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Earlier this year, Taiwanese media reported that Huawei and SMIC had started acquiring secondhand DUV lithography domestically, mainly from closed foundries.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Taiwanese tech analyst Chai Huan-shin said the US only requested ASML and Tokyo Electron Limited to restrict their shipments to China but did not stop chipmakers from selling their equipment. Chai said that loophole made it possible for China to accumulate enough DUV lithography to make 7nm chips.
> > > > > > > ...
> > > > > > > ‘2035CN’
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The apparently now-resolved questions of when the Mate60 Pro’s chipset was made and by whom arose when a Chinese gadget expert surnamed Yang last week found a “2035CN” label on the Kirin 9000s chip.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > One theory was that the designation meant the chip had been produced in the 35th week of 2020 in China, a week before TSMC stopped making chips for HiSilicon on September 15 that year. "
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > However, a Shenzhen-based technology expert surnamed Bai says on his YouTube channel that the “2035CN” label was probably made to confuse people or mark a special day. In fact, China has been promoting the goal of fully digitalizing its manufacturing sector by 2035.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Bai also says he is not surprised that SMIC could achieve the N+2 technology, which had been achieved by TSMC seven years ago. He says the breakthrough was a result of an improvement in China’s electronic design automation (EDA) software.
> > > > > > SMIC got around the export ban somehow. No way they did that just with homegrown EDA.
> > > > > Intel probably also thought they were the best. And no way TSMC could be better in making smaller and smaller chips.
> > > > TSMC uses American-supplied EDA.
> > > So?
> > No way TSMC would have gotten to where they have without EDA from elsewhere, certainly not that quickly.
> > > 1. I am responding to your "No Way" claim.
> > > 2. In addition, American-supplied EDA does not mean 100% American technology based EDA.
> > > TSMC and ASML could not supply China not because TSMC and ASML technology is 100%
> > > American technology.
> > > 3. More important, many innovations are no more than common sense.
> > >
> > > I had watched an old TV shows in which a group of US manufacturers had toured China, one of
> > > them had noticed Chinese made dust pans did not have a bump and/or a dip which would minimize
> > > trash from going back to the floor. His point was that made in China was still primitive. Of course, his
> > > point was valid. Indeed, some Chinese made dust pans do have these features later. But the sophisticate
> > > feature is still no more than common sense.
> > EDA is not a dustpan. It is very sophisticated and is hard to develop, has evolved in the US over decades.
> Well, the "common" means different things in different circumstance.
> How do people understand Einstein's theory of relative theory?
> Answer: They have to spent years learning all the necessary mathematics and physics.
> With the common background and hence the common sense, most could understand and then agree with
> Einstein. And they readily identify who has and who lack the common background and the common sense.
>
> High tech, like high physics, is only high to those without the necessary background and common sense.
> The dust pan is used as an analogy.

Obviously, but analogies don't prove anything. China is not known for EDA, but the US is. The US has been doing it for decades. It cannot be developed without lots of experience. I'm not sure whether Japan allows its EDA to be exported to China. To have the EDA technology homegrown China would need to be working on it for decades. It's impossibly to do it in a few years.

It's more likely that SMIC got its EDA from outside of China. Whether it was done legally is the question.
> > > Going back to Peter Wennink's comments, during 20 years between DUV and EUV, he had to vacillate
> > > back and forth multiple times between "No way any foundry could make smaller chips without the
> > > EUV" and "Would the EUV come out to late?"
> > > > > Yet, Intel had to struggle with its 10 nm production. And again with its 7 nm process that it has to outsource the production.
> > > > >
> > > > > "On the earnings call, Intel CEO Bob Swan said the company had identified a "defect mode" in its 7nm
> > > > > process that caused yield degradation issues. As a result, Intel has invested in "contingency plans,"
> > > > > which Swan later defined as including using third-party foundries.. The company will also use external
> > > > > third-party foundries for its forthcoming 7nm Ponte Vecchio GPUs, the company's first graphics chips.
> > > > > Ponte Vecchio comes as a chiplet-based design, and Swan clarified that production for some of the
> > > > > chiplets (tiles) will be outsourced to third parties. Swan noted the GPUs will come in late 2021 or early
> > > > > 2022, portending a delay beyond the original schedule for a 2021 launch in the exascale Aurora
> > > > > supercomputer.
> > > > >
> > > > > Intel's first 7nm server CPUs (Granite Rapids) will arrive in 2023, which is later than listed in earlier roadmaps
> > > > > that projected a launch in 2022. That timeline is concerning in the face of AMD's continued execution with its
> > > > > EPYC data center chips – AMD's roadmaps outline its 5nm Genoa processors coming to market before the
> > > > > end of 2022. Swan also said that Intel's first 7nm processors will debut for the client market, meaning chips
> > > > > targeting either desktop PCs or laptops. Intel's first 10nm desktop CPUs, Alder Lake, will arrive in the second
> > > > > half of 2021.
> > > > >
> > > > > For perspective, rival foundry TSMC plans to be on the 3nm node in the same time frame as Intel's new schedule
> > > > > for 7nm."
> > > > >
> > > > > https://www.tomshardware.com/news/intel-announces-delay-to-7nm-processors-now-one-year-behind-expectations

On Sunday, September 10, 2023 at 7:23:13 PM UTC-4, bmoore wrote:
> On Sunday, September 10, 2023 at 2:56:11 PM UTC-7, ltlee1 wrote:
> > On Sunday, September 10, 2023 at 2:04:23 PM UTC-4, bmoore wrote:
> > > On Sunday, September 10, 2023 at 9:49:33 AM UTC-7, ltlee1 wrote:
> > > > On Sunday, September 10, 2023 at 11:44:11 AM UTC-4, bmoore wrote:
> > > > > On Saturday, September 9, 2023 at 11:01:15 AM UTC-7, ltlee1 wrote:
> > > > > > On Saturday, September 9, 2023 at 11:27:52 AM UTC-4, bmoore wrote:
> > > > > > > On Thursday, September 7, 2023 at 8:31:25 AM UTC-7, ltlee1 wrote:
> > > > > > > > One week after Huawei's announcement on its Mate60 Pro, questions were raised and seems to be answered.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > https://asiatimes.com/2023/09/smic-bypasses-us-curbs-to-make-7nm-chips/
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > "After Huawei unexpectedly announced on August 29 its plan to sell the Mate60 Pro, some analysts had speculated that the phone’s central processing unit (CPU) chipset, the Kirin 9000s, could have been made either by TSMC before the US curbs took effect in September 2020 or by SMIC with its latest technology.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > The latest analysis shows that it is the latter case: SMIC has already developed the N+2 processing knowhow to use deep-ultraviolet (DUV) lithography to make high-energy 7nm chips.
> > > > > > > > ...
> > > > > > > > Loopholes or compromises?
> > > > > > > > ...
> > > > > > > > Firstly, Liang, a former TSMC and Samsung executive, can continue to work for SMIC as he is Taiwanese, not American. Secondly, the US government did not put enough pressure on the Netherlands to stop ASML from shipping DUV lithography to China over the few three years, or to monitor the resale of its equipment.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Earlier this year, Taiwanese media reported that Huawei and SMIC had started acquiring secondhand DUV lithography domestically, mainly from closed foundries.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Taiwanese tech analyst Chai Huan-shin said the US only requested ASML and Tokyo Electron Limited to restrict their shipments to China but did not stop chipmakers from selling their equipment. Chai said that loophole made it possible for China to accumulate enough DUV lithography to make 7nm chips.
> > > > > > > > ...
> > > > > > > > ‘2035CN’
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > The apparently now-resolved questions of when the Mate60 Pro’s chipset was made and by whom arose when a Chinese gadget expert surnamed Yang last week found a “2035CN” label on the Kirin 9000s chip.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > One theory was that the designation meant the chip had been produced in the 35th week of 2020 in China, a week before TSMC stopped making chips for HiSilicon on September 15 that year. "
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > However, a Shenzhen-based technology expert surnamed Bai says on his YouTube channel that the “2035CN” label was probably made to confuse people or mark a special day. In fact, China has been promoting the goal of fully digitalizing its manufacturing sector by 2035.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Bai also says he is not surprised that SMIC could achieve the N+2 technology, which had been achieved by TSMC seven years ago. He says the breakthrough was a result of an improvement in China’s electronic design automation (EDA) software.
> > > > > > > SMIC got around the export ban somehow. No way they did that just with homegrown EDA.
> > > > > > Intel probably also thought they were the best. And no way TSMC could be better in making smaller and smaller chips.
> > > > > TSMC uses American-supplied EDA.
> > > > So?
> > > No way TSMC would have gotten to where they have without EDA from elsewhere, certainly not that quickly.
> > > > 1. I am responding to your "No Way" claim.
> > > > 2. In addition, American-supplied EDA does not mean 100% American technology based EDA.
> > > > TSMC and ASML could not supply China not because TSMC and ASML technology is 100%
> > > > American technology.
> > > > 3. More important, many innovations are no more than common sense.
> > > >
> > > > I had watched an old TV shows in which a group of US manufacturers had toured China, one of
> > > > them had noticed Chinese made dust pans did not have a bump and/or a dip which would minimize
> > > > trash from going back to the floor. His point was that made in China was still primitive. Of course, his
> > > > point was valid. Indeed, some Chinese made dust pans do have these features later. But the sophisticate
> > > > feature is still no more than common sense.
> > > EDA is not a dustpan. It is very sophisticated and is hard to develop, has evolved in the US over decades.
> > Well, the "common" means different things in different circumstance.
> > How do people understand Einstein's theory of relative theory?
> > Answer: They have to spent years learning all the necessary mathematics and physics.
> > With the common background and hence the common sense, most could understand and then agree with
> > Einstein. And they readily identify who has and who lack the common background and the common sense.
> >
> > High tech, like high physics, is only high to those without the necessary background and common sense.
> > The dust pan is used as an analogy.
> Obviously, but analogies don't prove anything. China is not known for EDA, but the US is. The US has been doing it for decades. It cannot be developed without lots of experience. I'm not sure whether Japan allows its EDA to be exported to China. To have the EDA technology homegrown China would need to be working on it for decades. It's impossibly to do it in a few years.

I am trying to show the so called high tech is neither high nor magical for insiders. It is just another way
to express Arthur Clarke's famous "magical" quote. Feel free to insist certain technology is really magical.

Actually, China was not know to make dust pan with bump and/or dip for decades, centuries, or millennia
according to the observation of a certain US manufacturing. But common sense is still common sense.

Anyway, this is my last response to your speculation.

>
> It's more likely that SMIC got its EDA from outside of China. Whether it was done legally is the question.
> > > > Going back to Peter Wennink's comments, during 20 years between DUV and EUV, he had to vacillate
> > > > back and forth multiple times between "No way any foundry could make smaller chips without the
> > > > EUV" and "Would the EUV come out to late?"
> > > > > > Yet, Intel had to struggle with its 10 nm production. And again with its 7 nm process that it has to outsource the production.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "On the earnings call, Intel CEO Bob Swan said the company had identified a "defect mode" in its 7nm
> > > > > > process that caused yield degradation issues. As a result, Intel has invested in "contingency plans,"
> > > > > > which Swan later defined as including using third-party foundries. The company will also use external
> > > > > > third-party foundries for its forthcoming 7nm Ponte Vecchio GPUs, the company's first graphics chips.
> > > > > > Ponte Vecchio comes as a chiplet-based design, and Swan clarified that production for some of the
> > > > > > chiplets (tiles) will be outsourced to third parties. Swan noted the GPUs will come in late 2021 or early
> > > > > > 2022, portending a delay beyond the original schedule for a 2021 launch in the exascale Aurora
> > > > > > supercomputer.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Intel's first 7nm server CPUs (Granite Rapids) will arrive in 2023, which is later than listed in earlier roadmaps
> > > > > > that projected a launch in 2022. That timeline is concerning in the face of AMD's continued execution with its
> > > > > > EPYC data center chips – AMD's roadmaps outline its 5nm Genoa processors coming to market before the
> > > > > > end of 2022. Swan also said that Intel's first 7nm processors will debut for the client market, meaning chips
> > > > > > targeting either desktop PCs or laptops. Intel's first 10nm desktop CPUs, Alder Lake, will arrive in the second
> > > > > > half of 2021.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > For perspective, rival foundry TSMC plans to be on the 3nm node in the same time frame as Intel's new schedule
> > > > > > for 7nm."
> > > > > >
> > > > > > https://www.tomshardware.com/news/intel-announces-delay-to-7nm-processors-now-one-year-behind-expectations

On Sunday, September 10, 2023 at 5:17:19 PM UTC-7, ltlee1 wrote:
> On Sunday, September 10, 2023 at 7:23:13 PM UTC-4, bmoore wrote:
> > On Sunday, September 10, 2023 at 2:56:11 PM UTC-7, ltlee1 wrote:
> > > On Sunday, September 10, 2023 at 2:04:23 PM UTC-4, bmoore wrote:
> > > > On Sunday, September 10, 2023 at 9:49:33 AM UTC-7, ltlee1 wrote:
> > > > > On Sunday, September 10, 2023 at 11:44:11 AM UTC-4, bmoore wrote:
> > > > > > On Saturday, September 9, 2023 at 11:01:15 AM UTC-7, ltlee1 wrote:
> > > > > > > On Saturday, September 9, 2023 at 11:27:52 AM UTC-4, bmoore wrote:
> > > > > > > > On Thursday, September 7, 2023 at 8:31:25 AM UTC-7, ltlee1 wrote:
> > > > > > > > > One week after Huawei's announcement on its Mate60 Pro, questions were raised and seems to be answered.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > https://asiatimes.com/2023/09/smic-bypasses-us-curbs-to-make-7nm-chips/
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > "After Huawei unexpectedly announced on August 29 its plan to sell the Mate60 Pro, some analysts had speculated that the phone’s central processing unit (CPU) chipset, the Kirin 9000s, could have been made either by TSMC before the US curbs took effect in September 2020 or by SMIC with its latest technology.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > The latest analysis shows that it is the latter case: SMIC has already developed the N+2 processing knowhow to use deep-ultraviolet (DUV) lithography to make high-energy 7nm chips.
> > > > > > > > > ...
> > > > > > > > > Loopholes or compromises?
> > > > > > > > > ...
> > > > > > > > > Firstly, Liang, a former TSMC and Samsung executive, can continue to work for SMIC as he is Taiwanese, not American. Secondly, the US government did not put enough pressure on the Netherlands to stop ASML from shipping DUV lithography to China over the few three years, or to monitor the resale of its equipment.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Earlier this year, Taiwanese media reported that Huawei and SMIC had started acquiring secondhand DUV lithography domestically, mainly from closed foundries.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Taiwanese tech analyst Chai Huan-shin said the US only requested ASML and Tokyo Electron Limited to restrict their shipments to China but did not stop chipmakers from selling their equipment. Chai said that loophole made it possible for China to accumulate enough DUV lithography to make 7nm chips.
> > > > > > > > > ...
> > > > > > > > > ‘2035CN’
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > The apparently now-resolved questions of when the Mate60 Pro’s chipset was made and by whom arose when a Chinese gadget expert surnamed Yang last week found a “2035CN” label on the Kirin 9000s chip.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > One theory was that the designation meant the chip had been produced in the 35th week of 2020 in China, a week before TSMC stopped making chips for HiSilicon on September 15 that year. "
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > However, a Shenzhen-based technology expert surnamed Bai says on his YouTube channel that the “2035CN” label was probably made to confuse people or mark a special day. In fact, China has been promoting the goal of fully digitalizing its manufacturing sector by 2035.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Bai also says he is not surprised that SMIC could achieve the N+2 technology, which had been achieved by TSMC seven years ago. He says the breakthrough was a result of an improvement in China’s electronic design automation (EDA) software.
> > > > > > > > SMIC got around the export ban somehow. No way they did that just with homegrown EDA.
> > > > > > > Intel probably also thought they were the best. And no way TSMC could be better in making smaller and smaller chips.
> > > > > > TSMC uses American-supplied EDA.
> > > > > So?
> > > > No way TSMC would have gotten to where they have without EDA from elsewhere, certainly not that quickly.
> > > > > 1. I am responding to your "No Way" claim.
> > > > > 2. In addition, American-supplied EDA does not mean 100% American technology based EDA.
> > > > > TSMC and ASML could not supply China not because TSMC and ASML technology is 100%
> > > > > American technology.
> > > > > 3. More important, many innovations are no more than common sense..
> > > > >
> > > > > I had watched an old TV shows in which a group of US manufacturers had toured China, one of
> > > > > them had noticed Chinese made dust pans did not have a bump and/or a dip which would minimize
> > > > > trash from going back to the floor. His point was that made in China was still primitive. Of course, his
> > > > > point was valid. Indeed, some Chinese made dust pans do have these features later. But the sophisticate
> > > > > feature is still no more than common sense.
> > > > EDA is not a dustpan. It is very sophisticated and is hard to develop, has evolved in the US over decades.
> > > Well, the "common" means different things in different circumstance.
> > > How do people understand Einstein's theory of relative theory?
> > > Answer: They have to spent years learning all the necessary mathematics and physics.
> > > With the common background and hence the common sense, most could understand and then agree with
> > > Einstein. And they readily identify who has and who lack the common background and the common sense.
> > >
> > > High tech, like high physics, is only high to those without the necessary background and common sense.
> > > The dust pan is used as an analogy.
> > Obviously, but analogies don't prove anything. China is not known for EDA, but the US is. The US has been doing it for decades. It cannot be developed without lots of experience. I'm not sure whether Japan allows its EDA to be exported to China. To have the EDA technology homegrown China would need to be working on it for decades. It's impossibly to do it in a few years.
> I am trying to show the so called high tech is neither high nor magical for insiders. It is just another way
> to express Arthur Clarke's famous "magical" quote. Feel free to insist certain technology is really magical.
>
> Actually, China was not know to make dust pan with bump and/or dip for decades, centuries, or millennia
> according to the observation of a certain US manufacturing. But common sense is still common sense.

You're changing the subject. Making new technology is difficult and takes a long time to develop. If China announced a moon landing a few years after the US landing in 1969, that would be suspicious.

> Anyway, this is my last response to your speculation.

OK, but you haven't really addressed what I was discussing.

> > It's more likely that SMIC got its EDA from outside of China. Whether it was done legally is the question.
> > > > > Going back to Peter Wennink's comments, during 20 years between DUV and EUV, he had to vacillate
> > > > > back and forth multiple times between "No way any foundry could make smaller chips without the
> > > > > EUV" and "Would the EUV come out to late?"
> > > > > > > Yet, Intel had to struggle with its 10 nm production. And again with its 7 nm process that it has to outsource the production.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "On the earnings call, Intel CEO Bob Swan said the company had identified a "defect mode" in its 7nm
> > > > > > > process that caused yield degradation issues. As a result, Intel has invested in "contingency plans,"
> > > > > > > which Swan later defined as including using third-party foundries. The company will also use external
> > > > > > > third-party foundries for its forthcoming 7nm Ponte Vecchio GPUs, the company's first graphics chips.
> > > > > > > Ponte Vecchio comes as a chiplet-based design, and Swan clarified that production for some of the
> > > > > > > chiplets (tiles) will be outsourced to third parties. Swan noted the GPUs will come in late 2021 or early
> > > > > > > 2022, portending a delay beyond the original schedule for a 2021 launch in the exascale Aurora
> > > > > > > supercomputer.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Intel's first 7nm server CPUs (Granite Rapids) will arrive in 2023, which is later than listed in earlier roadmaps
> > > > > > > that projected a launch in 2022. That timeline is concerning in the face of AMD's continued execution with its
> > > > > > > EPYC data center chips – AMD's roadmaps outline its 5nm Genoa processors coming to market before the
> > > > > > > end of 2022. Swan also said that Intel's first 7nm processors will debut for the client market, meaning chips
> > > > > > > targeting either desktop PCs or laptops. Intel's first 10nm desktop CPUs, Alder Lake, will arrive in the second
> > > > > > > half of 2021.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > For perspective, rival foundry TSMC plans to be on the 3nm node in the same time frame as Intel's new schedule
> > > > > > > for 7nm."
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > https://www.tomshardware.com/news/intel-announces-delay-to-7nm-processors-now-one-year-behind-expectations