Russia expert Masha Gessen was on *Meet the Press* yesterday.
Chuck Todd avoided all pronoun use, knowing how confusing his
audience would find it if he referred to "their book" when only one
author was named on the cover.

The audiences for political TV and radio programs have known
Gessen as "she" for years; the request for "they" is quite recent,
though the only way you'd know that from the Wikiparticle is from
the mention that Masha bore a child.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masha_Gessen#Personal_life

Uncharacteristically, the article gives no hint of the original
Russian name.

On Monday, April 4, 2022 at 1:53:45 PM UTC-4, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> Russia expert Masha Gessen was on *Meet the Press* yesterday.
> Chuck Todd avoided all pronoun use, knowing how confusing his
> audience would find it if he referred to "their book" when only one
> author was named on the cover.

I remember when I was a kid, I remember seeing on TV some forgotten episode to some forgotten series where Cajun people from Louisiana were being stereotyped. It seemed like the guy was saying what sounded like 'yaw' not only in reference to "you", but also a third person, even referring to a woman.. And the guy who was not from Louisiana kept callling him an idiot.
Wow, there was a lot of hostility in that show. Now that I think of it, it was damn damn sad to look at.

On Monday, April 4, 2022 at 2:19:43 PM UTC-4, bruce bowser wrote:
> On Monday, April 4, 2022 at 1:53:45 PM UTC-4, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > Russia expert Masha Gessen was on *Meet the Press* yesterday.
> > Chuck Todd avoided all pronoun use, knowing how confusing his
> > audience would find it if he referred to "their book" when only one
> > author was named on the cover.
> I remember when I was a kid, I remember seeing on TV some forgotten episode to some forgotten series where Cajun people from Louisiana were being stereotyped. It seemed like the guy was saying what sounded like 'yaw' not only in reference to "you", but also a third person, even referring to a woman. And the guy who was not from Louisiana kept callling him an idiot.
> Wow, there was a lot of hostility in that show. Now that I think of it, it was damn damn sad to look at.

And no, it wasn't an episode of 'Dallas' although those episodes come very close to that kind of thing.

Mon, 4 Apr 2022 10:53:43 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
<grammatim@verizon.net> scribeva:

>Russia expert Masha Gessen was on *Meet the Press* yesterday.
>Chuck Todd avoided all pronoun use, knowing how confusing his
>audience would find it if he referred to "their book" when only one
>author was named on the cover.
>
>The audiences for political TV and radio programs have known
>Gessen as "she" for years; the request for "they" is quite recent,
>though the only way you'd know that from the Wikiparticle is from
>the mention that Masha bore a child.
>
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masha_Gessen#Personal_life
>
>Uncharacteristically, the article gives no hint of the original
>Russian name.

The Russian version does: Maria. Unsurprisingly.
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com

On 2022-04-04, Ruud Harmsen wrote:

> Mon, 4 Apr 2022 10:53:43 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
><grammatim@verizon.net> scribeva:
>
>>Russia expert Masha Gessen was on *Meet the Press* yesterday.
>>Chuck Todd avoided all pronoun use, knowing how confusing his
>>audience would find it if he referred to "their book" when only one
>>author was named on the cover.
>>
>>The audiences for political TV and radio programs have known
>>Gessen as "she" for years; the request for "they" is quite recent,
>>though the only way you'd know that from the Wikiparticle is from
>>the mention that Masha bore a child.
>>
>>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masha_Gessen#Personal_life
>>
>>Uncharacteristically, the article gives no hint of the original
>>Russian name.
>
> The Russian version does: Maria. Unsurprisingly.

It says "Мари́я (Маша) Алекса́ндровна Ге́ссен" --- I can't read Russian
but I can pick out the Cyrillic enough to get "Mariya (Masha)" out of
that. Do the () mean that they picked that name?

--
My choice early in life was either to be a piano player in a
whorehouse or a politician. And to tell the truth, there's
hardly any difference. ---Harry S Truman

Mon, 04 Apr 2022 19:42:55 +0100: Adam Funk <a24061@ducksburg.com>
scribeva:

>On 2022-04-04, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>
>> Mon, 4 Apr 2022 10:53:43 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
>><grammatim@verizon.net> scribeva:
>>
>>>Russia expert Masha Gessen was on *Meet the Press* yesterday.
>>>Chuck Todd avoided all pronoun use, knowing how confusing his
>>>audience would find it if he referred to "their book" when only one
>>>author was named on the cover.
>>>
>>>The audiences for political TV and radio programs have known
>>>Gessen as "she" for years; the request for "they" is quite recent,
>>>though the only way you'd know that from the Wikiparticle is from
>>>the mention that Masha bore a child.
>>>
>>>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masha_Gessen#Personal_life
>>>
>>>Uncharacteristically, the article gives no hint of the original
>>>Russian name.
>>
>> The Russian version does: Maria. Unsurprisingly.
>
>It says "?????? (????) ?????????????? ???????" --- I can't read Russian
>but I can pick out the Cyrillic enough to get "Mariya (Masha)" out of
>that. Do the () mean that they picked that name?

Switch to the Dutch version for a nice transliteration:
https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masha_Gessen
Maria Aleksandrovna Gessen.

--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com

>>>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masha_Gessen#Personal_life
>>>
>>>Uncharacteristically, the article gives no hint of the original
>>>Russian name.
>>
>> The Russian version does: Maria. Unsurprisingly.
>
>It says "?????? (????) ?????????????? ???????" --- I can't read Russian
>but I can pick out the Cyrillic enough to get "Mariya (Masha)" out of
>that. Do the () mean that they picked that name?

Probably Masha is a standard endearment form of Maria. All Russian
names have that. Like Robert = Bob, William = Bill, Richard = Dick,
Eward = Ted. Mostly based on younger siblings, or themselves, not yet
being able to pronounce the real thing; then it stuck.

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_given_name#Full_(formal)_and_short_forms>

--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com

On Monday, April 4, 2022 at 2:45:06 PM UTC-4, Adam Funk wrote:
> On 2022-04-04, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> > Mon, 4 Apr 2022 10:53:43 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
> ><gram...@verizon.net> scribeva:

> >>Russia expert Masha Gessen was on *Meet the Press* yesterday.
> >>Chuck Todd avoided all pronoun use, knowing how confusing his
> >>audience would find it if he referred to "their book" when only one
> >>author was named on the cover.
> >>The audiences for political TV and radio programs have known
> >>Gessen as "she" for years; the request for "they" is quite recent,
> >>though the only way you'd know that from the Wikiparticle is from
> >>the mention that Masha bore a child.
> >>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masha_Gessen#Personal_life
> >>Uncharacteristically, the article gives no hint of the original
> >>Russian name.
> > The Russian version does: Maria. Unsurprisingly.
>
> It says "Мари́я (Маша) Алекса́ндровна Ге́ссен" --- I can't read Russian
> but I can pick out the Cyrillic enough to get "Mariya (Masha)" out of
> that. Do the () mean that they picked that name?

Mikhail Baryshnikov's article presumably reads
Mikhail (Misha) -- they usually give the standard
nickname with Russian names. (And anyone who
followed *Sex & the City* ...)

* Peter T. Daniels:

> Russia expert Masha Gessen was on *Meet the Press* yesterday.
> Chuck Todd avoided all pronoun use, knowing how confusing his
> audience would find it if he referred to "their book" when only one
> author was named on the cover.
>
> The audiences for political TV and radio programs have known
> Gessen as "she" for years; the request for "they" is quite recent,
> though the only way you'd know that from the Wikiparticle is from
> the mention that Masha bore a child.

You mean that's the only way you'd know about their biological sex -
information you can't expect to get about everyone. You should get used
to it. In and of itself it doesn't say anything about formerly used
pronouns or gender identities.

Of course, historically it was unusual to use pronouns other than "he"
or "she", but for younger people, they may have changed pronouns and/or
official gender before they bore or sired any children. Thomas_Beatie
has had three pregnancies as a man, and many non-binary people have
given birth after coming out.

> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masha_Gessen#Personal_life

The Wikipedia manual of style requires it so:

| Refer to any person whose gender might be questioned with gendered
| words (e.g. pronouns, "man/woman", "waiter/waitress") that reflect
| the person's latest expressed gender self-identification as reported
| in the most recent reliable sources, even if it does not match what
| is most common in sources

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Biography#Gender_identity>

--
Dottie: Maybe you can give him a pep talk.
Tunde: He is a white man with money. God already gave him a pep talk.
-- Bob hearts Abishola, S01E10

* Ruud Harmsen:

>>>>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masha_Gessen#Personal_life
>>>>
>>>>Uncharacteristically, the article gives no hint of the original
>>>>Russian name.
>>>
>>> The Russian version does: Maria. Unsurprisingly.
>>

[Russian restored]
>>It says "Мари́я (Маша) Алекса́ндровна Ге́ссен" --- I can't read Russian
>>but I can pick out the Cyrillic enough to get "Mariya (Masha)" out of
>>that. Do the () mean that they picked that name?
>
> Probably Masha is a standard endearment form of Maria.

Absolutely. I guess mentioning it at all indicates "known as" in this
case.

> All Russian
> names have that. Like Robert = Bob, William = Bill, Richard = Dick,
> Eward = Ted. Mostly based on younger siblings, or themselves, not yet
> being able to pronounce the real thing; then it stuck.
>
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_given_name#Full_(formal)_and_short_forms>

I'm sure I mentioned before how I once worked in a small group of
colleagues, about half of whom had the almost-but-not-quite same name:
Anne, Anja, Anke, Antje and Annette.

--
"THIS IS IMPORTANT," one of the homunculi said to me. "THERE ARE
NO MEN AND NO WOMEN AND NOTHING ELSE."
-- Mieko Kawakami, Breast and Eggs

On Monday, April 4, 2022 at 3:01:13 PM UTC-4, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> >>>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masha_Gessen#Personal_life
> >>>
> >>>Uncharacteristically, the article gives no hint of the original
> >>>Russian name.
> >>
> >> The Russian version does: Maria. Unsurprisingly.
> >
> >It says "?????? (????) ?????????????? ???????" --- I can't read Russian
> >but I can pick out the Cyrillic enough to get "Mariya (Masha)" out of
> >that. Do the () mean that they picked that name?
> Probably Masha is a standard endearment form of Maria. All Russian
> names have that. Like Robert = Bob, William = Bill, Richard = Dick,
> Eward = Ted.

Edward = Ted, yes.

> Mostly based on younger siblings, or themselves, not yet
> being able to pronounce the real thing; then it stuck.
>
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_given_name#Full_(formal)_and_short_forms>
> --
> Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com

On 05/04/22 04:42, Adam Funk wrote:
> On 2022-04-04, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>
>> Mon, 4 Apr 2022 10:53:43 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
>> <grammatim@verizon.net> scribeva:
>>
>>> Russia expert Masha Gessen was on *Meet the Press* yesterday.
>>> Chuck Todd avoided all pronoun use, knowing how confusing his
>>> audience would find it if he referred to "their book" when only one
>>> author was named on the cover.
>>>
>>> The audiences for political TV and radio programs have known
>>> Gessen as "she" for years; the request for "they" is quite recent,
>>> though the only way you'd know that from the Wikiparticle is from
>>> the mention that Masha bore a child.
>>>
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masha_Gessen#Personal_life
>>>
>>> Uncharacteristically, the article gives no hint of the original
>>> Russian name.
>>
>> The Russian version does: Maria. Unsurprisingly.
>
> It says "Мари́я (Маша) Алекса́ндровна Ге́ссен" --- I can't read Russian
> but I can pick out the Cyrillic enough to get "Mariya (Masha)" out of
> that. Do the () mean that they picked that name?

Алекса́ндровна is unambiguously feminine.

--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org

On Monday, April 4, 2022 at 11:54:33 AM UTC-7, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> Mon, 04 Apr 2022 19:42:55 +0100: Adam Funk <a24...@ducksburg.com>
> scribeva:
> >On 2022-04-04, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> >
> >> Mon, 4 Apr 2022 10:53:43 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
> >><gram...@verizon.net> scribeva:
> >>
> >>>Russia expert Masha Gessen was on *Meet the Press* yesterday.
> >>>Chuck Todd avoided all pronoun use, knowing how confusing his
> >>>audience would find it if he referred to "their book" when only one
> >>>author was named on the cover.
> >>>
> >>>The audiences for political TV and radio programs have known
> >>>Gessen as "she" for years; the request for "they" is quite recent,
> >>>though the only way you'd know that from the Wikiparticle is from
> >>>the mention that Masha bore a child.
> >>>
> >>>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masha_Gessen#Personal_life
> >>>
> >>>Uncharacteristically, the article gives no hint of the original
> >>>Russian name.
> >>
> >> The Russian version does: Maria. Unsurprisingly.
> >
> >It says "?????? (????) ?????????????? ???????" --- I can't read Russian
> >but I can pick out the Cyrillic enough to get "Mariya (Masha)" out of
> >that. Do the () mean that they picked that name?
> Switch to the Dutch version for a nice transliteration:
> https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masha_Gessen
> Maria Aleksandrovna Gessen.
> --
What's after Mari is ja, not a, so it's Marija in transliteration
to Dutch even if the Dutch equivalent is Maria.

Mon, 4 Apr 2022 21:26:10 -0700 (PDT): Dingbat
<ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com> scribeva:

>On Monday, April 4, 2022 at 11:54:33 AM UTC-7, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>> Mon, 04 Apr 2022 19:42:55 +0100: Adam Funk <a24...@ducksburg.com>
>> scribeva:
>> >On 2022-04-04, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>> >
>> >> Mon, 4 Apr 2022 10:53:43 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
>> >><gram...@verizon.net> scribeva:
>> >>
>> >>>Russia expert Masha Gessen was on *Meet the Press* yesterday.
>> >>>Chuck Todd avoided all pronoun use, knowing how confusing his
>> >>>audience would find it if he referred to "their book" when only one
>> >>>author was named on the cover.
>> >>>
>> >>>The audiences for political TV and radio programs have known
>> >>>Gessen as "she" for years; the request for "they" is quite recent,
>> >>>though the only way you'd know that from the Wikiparticle is from
>> >>>the mention that Masha bore a child.
>> >>>
>> >>>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masha_Gessen#Personal_life
>> >>>
>> >>>Uncharacteristically, the article gives no hint of the original
>> >>>Russian name.
>> >>
>> >> The Russian version does: Maria. Unsurprisingly.
>> >
>> >It says "?????? (????) ?????????????? ???????" --- I can't read Russian
>> >but I can pick out the Cyrillic enough to get "Mariya (Masha)" out of
>> >that. Do the () mean that they picked that name?
>> Switch to the Dutch version for a nice transliteration:
>> https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masha_Gessen
>> Maria Aleksandrovna Gessen.
>> --
>What's after Mari is ja, not a, so it's Marija in transliteration
>to Dutch even if the Dutch equivalent is Maria.

That makes to difference. Not in Dutch. And probably not in Russian
either, in the case, seeing the preceding i.

Writing Marija would be confusing in Dutch, because a name Marije
exists, Ma-rij-e, /ma'rEI@/.

Mon, 4 Apr 2022 17:40:35 -0400: Quinn C
<lispamateur@crommatograph.info> scribeva:

>* Ruud Harmsen:
>
>>>>>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masha_Gessen#Personal_life
>>>>>
>>>>>Uncharacteristically, the article gives no hint of the original
>>>>>Russian name.
>>>>
>>>> The Russian version does: Maria. Unsurprisingly.
>>>
>
>[Russian restored]
>>>It says "?????? (????) ?????????????? ???????" --- I can't read Russian
>>>but I can pick out the Cyrillic enough to get "Mariya (Masha)" out of
>>>that. Do the () mean that they picked that name?
>>
>> Probably Masha is a standard endearment form of Maria.
>
>Absolutely. I guess mentioning it at all indicates "known as" in this
>case.
>
>> All Russian
>> names have that. Like Robert = Bob, William = Bill, Richard = Dick,
>> Eward = Ted. Mostly based on younger siblings, or themselves, not yet
>> being able to pronounce the real thing; then it stuck.
>>
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_given_name#Full_(formal)_and_short_forms>
>
>I'm sure I mentioned before how I once worked in a small group of
>colleagues, about half of whom had the almost-but-not-quite same name:
>Anne, Anja, Anke, Antje and Annette.

.... and Anette and Annete and Annet.

On 2022-04-05 01:42:08 +0000, Peter Moylan said:

> On 05/04/22 04:42, Adam Funk wrote:
>> On 2022-04-04, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>>
>>> Mon, 4 Apr 2022 10:53:43 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
>>> <grammatim@verizon.net> scribeva:
>>>
>>>> Russia expert Masha Gessen was on *Meet the Press* yesterday.
>>>> Chuck Todd avoided all pronoun use, knowing how confusing his
>>>> audience would find it if he referred to "their book" when only one
>>>> author was named on the cover.
>>>>
>>>> The audiences for political TV and radio programs have known
>>>> Gessen as "she" for years; the request for "they" is quite recent,
>>>> though the only way you'd know that from the Wikiparticle is from
>>>> the mention that Masha bore a child.
>>>>
>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masha_Gessen#Personal_life
>>>>
>>>> Uncharacteristically, the article gives no hint of the original
>>>> Russian name.
>>>
>>> The Russian version does: Maria. Unsurprisingly.
>>
>> It says "Мари́я (Маша) Алекса́ндровна Ге́ссен" --- I can't read Russian
>> but I can pick out the Cyrillic enough to get "Mariya (Masha)" out of
>> that. Do the () mean that they picked that name?
>
> Алекса́ндровна is unambiguously feminine.

Yes, but Саша (Sasha), the short form of Александр, is unisex. Her Dad
was probably known familiarly as Саша.

--
Athel -- French and British, living mainly in England until 1987.

On 2022-04-04, Quinn C wrote:

> * Ruud Harmsen:
>
>>>>>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masha_Gessen#Personal_life
>>>>>
>>>>>Uncharacteristically, the article gives no hint of the original
>>>>>Russian name.
>>>>
>>>> The Russian version does: Maria. Unsurprisingly.
>>>
>
> [Russian restored]
>>>It says "Мари́я (Маша) Алекса́ндровна Ге́ссен" --- I can't read Russian
>>>but I can pick out the Cyrillic enough to get "Mariya (Masha)" out of
>>>that. Do the () mean that they picked that name?
>>
>> Probably Masha is a standard endearment form of Maria.
>
> Absolutely. I guess mentioning it at all indicates "known as" in this
> case.

That makes sense.

>> All Russian
>> names have that. Like Robert = Bob, William = Bill, Richard = Dick,
>> Eward = Ted. Mostly based on younger siblings, or themselves, not yet
>> being able to pronounce the real thing; then it stuck.
>>
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_given_name#Full_(formal)_and_short_forms>
>
> I'm sure I mentioned before how I once worked in a small group of
> colleagues, about half of whom had the almost-but-not-quite same name:
> Anne, Anja, Anke, Antje and Annette.
>

--
Slade was the coolest band in England. They were the kind of guys
that would push your car out of a ditch. ---Alice Cooper

On 2022-04-04, Peter T. Daniels wrote:

> On Monday, April 4, 2022 at 2:45:06 PM UTC-4, Adam Funk wrote:
>> On 2022-04-04, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>> > Mon, 4 Apr 2022 10:53:43 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
>> ><gram...@verizon.net> scribeva:
>
>> >>Russia expert Masha Gessen was on *Meet the Press* yesterday.
>> >>Chuck Todd avoided all pronoun use, knowing how confusing his
>> >>audience would find it if he referred to "their book" when only one
>> >>author was named on the cover.
>> >>The audiences for political TV and radio programs have known
>> >>Gessen as "she" for years; the request for "they" is quite recent,
>> >>though the only way you'd know that from the Wikiparticle is from
>> >>the mention that Masha bore a child.
>> >>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masha_Gessen#Personal_life
>> >>Uncharacteristically, the article gives no hint of the original
>> >>Russian name.
>> > The Russian version does: Maria. Unsurprisingly.
>>
>> It says "Мари́я (Маша) Алекса́ндровна Ге́ссен" --- I can't read Russian
>> but I can pick out the Cyrillic enough to get "Mariya (Masha)" out of
>> that. Do the () mean that they picked that name?
>
> Mikhail Baryshnikov's article presumably reads
> Mikhail (Misha) -- they usually give the standard
> nickname with Russian names.

Aha, thanks.

> (And anyone who
> followed *Sex & the City* ...)

(No, I didn't.)

--
The generation of random numbers is too important to be left to
chance. ---Robert R. Coveyou

In article <1i97t913kvli0.dlg@mid.crommatograph.info>,
lispamateur@crommatograph.info says...

> Thomas_Beatie
> has had three pregnancies as a man

So when the children are asked by other kids and officials, all their
lives

"Where's your Mum? Who is your Mother? Mother's name? "

how should they reply?

"I don't know."
"I've never met her"
" My Mum is a man now."
"Daddy is my Mother".
"My mother's name is Thomas Beatie".

? ???

Isn't this the basic conundrum undermining pronoun-choice and self-
identity?

It's one thing for trans people to choose/adjust/remake their own
reality. Quite another to force other people to cover up or tell a lie
that denies THEIR own reality. As in this instance

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-52471697

This is a very personal question and you're free to ignore it. Do your
son and wife, still identify and name you as their father/ husband?

Janet

On Monday, April 4, 2022 at 5:40:43 PM UTC-4, Quinn C wrote:
> * Peter T. Daniels:
> > Russia expert Masha Gessen was on *Meet the Press* yesterday.
> > Chuck Todd avoided all pronoun use, knowing how confusing his
> > audience would find it if he referred to "their book" when only one
> > author was named on the cover.
> >
> > The audiences for political TV and radio programs have known
> > Gessen as "she" for years; the request for "they" is quite recent,
> > though the only way you'd know that from the Wikiparticle is from
> > the mention that Masha bore a child.
>
> You mean that's the only way you'd know about their biological sex -
> information you can't expect to get about everyone. You should get used
> to it. In and of itself it doesn't say anything about formerly used
> pronouns or gender identities.

She was not a "they" until maybe a few months ago (or mayb there
was a hiatus in her appearances after the discussions of the "perfect
phone call"). Therefore it is incorrect for the biography to call her "they"
while discussing the first however-many years of her life.

> Of course, historically it was unusual

unthinkable and uninterpretable

> to use pronouns other than "he"
> or "she", but for younger people, they may have changed pronouns and/or
> official gender before they bore or sired any children. Thomas_Beatie
> has had three pregnancies as a man, and many non-binary people have
> given birth after coming out.

Where does that fall in your "historically"?

> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masha_Gessen#Personal_life
>
> The Wikipedia manual of style requires it so:
>
> | Refer to any person whose gender might be questioned with gendered
> | words (e.g. pronouns, "man/woman", "waiter/waitress") that reflect
> | the person's latest expressed gender self-identification as reported
> | in the most recent reliable sources, even if it does not match what
> | is most common in sources
>
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Biography#Gender_identity>

That is a bad and stupid policy, for the reason given above.

There have been famous cross-dressers in history. A woman who
served in the Continental Army, Garbo's version of some queen
(which turned out to be an extremely boring movie). We have no
way of knowing who they would claim to be if they were transported
to the 21st century.

On 2022-04-05, Peter T. Daniels wrote:

> On Monday, April 4, 2022 at 5:40:43 PM UTC-4, Quinn C wrote:
>> * Peter T. Daniels:
>> > Russia expert Masha Gessen was on *Meet the Press* yesterday.
>> > Chuck Todd avoided all pronoun use, knowing how confusing his
>> > audience would find it if he referred to "their book" when only one
>> > author was named on the cover.
>> >
>> > The audiences for political TV and radio programs have known
>> > Gessen as "she" for years; the request for "they" is quite recent,
>> > though the only way you'd know that from the Wikiparticle is from
>> > the mention that Masha bore a child.
>>
>> You mean that's the only way you'd know about their biological sex -
>> information you can't expect to get about everyone. You should get used
>> to it. In and of itself it doesn't say anything about formerly used
>> pronouns or gender identities.
>
> She was not a "they" until maybe a few months ago (or mayb there
> was a hiatus in her appearances after the discussions of the "perfect
> phone call"). Therefore it is incorrect for the biography to call her "they"
> while discussing the first however-many years of her life.
>
>> Of course, historically it was unusual
>
> unthinkable and uninterpretable
>
>> to use pronouns other than "he"
>> or "she", but for younger people, they may have changed pronouns and/or
>> official gender before they bore or sired any children. Thomas_Beatie
>> has had three pregnancies as a man, and many non-binary people have
>> given birth after coming out.
>
> Where does that fall in your "historically"?
>
>> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masha_Gessen#Personal_life
>>
>> The Wikipedia manual of style requires it so:
>>
>> | Refer to any person whose gender might be questioned with gendered
>> | words (e.g. pronouns, "man/woman", "waiter/waitress") that reflect
>> | the person's latest expressed gender self-identification as reported
>> | in the most recent reliable sources, even if it does not match what
>> | is most common in sources
>>
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Biography#Gender_identity>
>
> That is a bad and stupid policy, for the reason given above.

Do you think it would be easier or harder to read with pronouns for
the same person changing in the article?

> There have been famous cross-dressers in history. A woman who
> served in the Continental Army, Garbo's version of some queen
> (which turned out to be an extremely boring movie). We have no
> way of knowing who they would claim to be if they were transported
> to the 21st century.

Cross-dressing is not the same. And Deborah Sampson's seems to have
been purely functional (women couldn't enlist) rather than fun (sexual
fetish) or trans-gender; apparently she wasn't the only one:

When Dr. Binney asked Sampson to deliver a note to General
Paterson, she correctly assumed that it would reveal her sex. In
other cases, women who pretended to be men to serve in the army
were reprimanded, but Paterson gave her a discharge, a note with
some words of advice, and enough money to travel home. She was
honorably discharged at West Point, New York, by General Henry
Knox[5] on October 25, 1783, after a year and a half of service.[4]

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deborah_Sampson>

I expect the "functional" category applies to most of
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wartime_cross-dressers>
although le Chevalier d'Éon may have been trans-gender.

--
The [music] business would be a good thing, except that it's
dominated by drug addicts and businessmen. ---Tom Scholz

* Peter T. Daniels:

> On Monday, April 4, 2022 at 5:40:43 PM UTC-4, Quinn C wrote:
>> * Peter T. Daniels:
>>> Russia expert Masha Gessen was on *Meet the Press* yesterday.
>>> Chuck Todd avoided all pronoun use, knowing how confusing his
>>> audience would find it if he referred to "their book" when only one
>>> author was named on the cover.
>>>
>>> The audiences for political TV and radio programs have known
>>> Gessen as "she" for years; the request for "they" is quite recent,
>>> though the only way you'd know that from the Wikiparticle is from
>>> the mention that Masha bore a child.
>>
>> You mean that's the only way you'd know about their biological sex -
>> information you can't expect to get about everyone. You should get used
>> to it. In and of itself it doesn't say anything about formerly used
>> pronouns or gender identities.
>
> She was not a "they" until maybe a few months ago (or mayb there
> was a hiatus in her appearances after the discussions of the "perfect
> phone call").

I think I noticed some time last year. The source Wp gives is from June
2020, and there, Gessen isn't introducing new pronouns, but defending
their right to be addressed by them.

Btw, I also have Gessen on my mental list of people with somewhat
gender-neutral voices.

> Therefore it is incorrect for the biography to call her "they"
> while discussing the first however-many years of her life.

It's not "incorrect". People seeing you as a thing doesn't make you it.
This isn't restricted to gender. I've heard from trans people who say
they were a different gender before transition, but that's an exception.
The much more common conceptualization is that they were just living in
a different, wrong or less fitting identity before. Essentially, that
they were cross-dressing or role-playing before transition.

I'd say that I felt non-binary my whole life, although I couldn't
articulate it well for a long time. I don't have childhood memories of
wanting to wear dresses or play with dolls, but I do of wondering why
people pay so much attention to the distinction between "boys" and
"girls"; it never made much sense to me.

I did role-play as a man because that's what was expected of me. I
didn't want to role-play as a woman, in the rather narrow way trans
women were expected to be up to the 1990s. Now I feel freer to be myself
because it's more acceptable to pick and choose.

Sure, using other pronouns referring to the past than were used in the
past can be confusing, but every alternative would be, too.

>> Of course, historically it was unusual
>
> unthinkable and uninterpretable
>
>> to use pronouns other than "he"
>> or "she", but for younger people, they may have changed pronouns and/or
>> official gender before they bore or sired any children. Thomas_Beatie
>> has had three pregnancies as a man, and many non-binary people have
>> given birth after coming out.
>
> Where does that fall in your "historically"?

We know about it mostly in the last 20 years. It's harder to get clear
information in this respect about earlier time periods, but there must
be some historic records of people giving birth, but later living in a
male identity. Of course, physical transition wasn't widely available
until rather recently.

>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masha_Gessen#Personal_life
>>
>> The Wikipedia manual of style requires it so:
>>
>>| Refer to any person whose gender might be questioned with gendered
>>| words (e.g. pronouns, "man/woman", "waiter/waitress") that reflect
>>| the person's latest expressed gender self-identification as reported
>>| in the most recent reliable sources, even if it does not match what
>>| is most common in sources
>>
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Biography#Gender_identity>
>
> That is a bad and stupid policy, for the reason given above.
>
> There have been famous cross-dressers in history. A woman who
> served in the Continental Army, Garbo's version of some queen
> (which turned out to be an extremely boring movie).

The Chevalier/Chevalière d'Eon - a rare case, I think, where people were
really unclear for a long time which direction the "cross-dressing"
went.

And of course there were intersex people in the past, like, in some
likelihood, (Garbo's) Christina of Sweden, and no good language to refer
to that. Until recently, it was mostly treated as a thing to hide.

> We have no
> way of knowing who they would claim to be if they were transported
> to the 21st century.

Yes, for historic personalities, the question is different, and
complicated. We can't just assign modern identities to them, but we may
also not understand the identities that they used back then (sometimes
just decades ago, as recently discussed with "transvestite"). Often, an
explanatory paragraph or chapter will be the best solution.

Avoiding pronouns altogether can be a good practice, but harder when
writing a whole book. A short overview like here is completely fine:
<https://www.britishmuseum.org/collection/desire-love-and-identity/chevalier-deon>

--
Quinn C
My pronouns are they/them
(or other gender-neutral ones)

* Adam Funk:

> On 2022-04-05, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>
>> On Monday, April 4, 2022 at 5:40:43 PM UTC-4, Quinn C wrote:
>>> * Peter T. Daniels:
>>> > Russia expert Masha Gessen was on *Meet the Press* yesterday.
>>> > Chuck Todd avoided all pronoun use, knowing how confusing his
>>> > audience would find it if he referred to "their book" when only one
>>> > author was named on the cover.
>>> >
>>> > The audiences for political TV and radio programs have known
>>> > Gessen as "she" for years; the request for "they" is quite recent,
>>> > though the only way you'd know that from the Wikiparticle is from
>>> > the mention that Masha bore a child.
>>>
>>> You mean that's the only way you'd know about their biological sex -
>>> information you can't expect to get about everyone. You should get used
>>> to it. In and of itself it doesn't say anything about formerly used
>>> pronouns or gender identities.
>>
>> She was not a "they" until maybe a few months ago (or mayb there
>> was a hiatus in her appearances after the discussions of the "perfect
>> phone call"). Therefore it is incorrect for the biography to call her "they"
>> while discussing the first however-many years of her life.
>>
>>> Of course, historically it was unusual
>>
>> unthinkable and uninterpretable
>>
>>> to use pronouns other than "he"
>>> or "she", but for younger people, they may have changed pronouns and/or
>>> official gender before they bore or sired any children. Thomas_Beatie
>>> has had three pregnancies as a man, and many non-binary people have
>>> given birth after coming out.
>>
>> Where does that fall in your "historically"?
>>
>>> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masha_Gessen#Personal_life
>>>
>>> The Wikipedia manual of style requires it so:
>>>
>>> | Refer to any person whose gender might be questioned with gendered
>>> | words (e.g. pronouns, "man/woman", "waiter/waitress") that reflect
>>> | the person's latest expressed gender self-identification as reported
>>> | in the most recent reliable sources, even if it does not match what
>>> | is most common in sources
>>>
>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Biography#Gender_identity>
>>
>> That is a bad and stupid policy, for the reason given above.
>
> Do you think it would be easier or harder to read with pronouns for
> the same person changing in the article?
>
>> There have been famous cross-dressers in history. A woman who
>> served in the Continental Army, Garbo's version of some queen
>> (which turned out to be an extremely boring movie). We have no
>> way of knowing who they would claim to be if they were transported
>> to the 21st century.
>
> Cross-dressing is not the same. And Deborah Sampson's seems to have
> been purely functional (women couldn't enlist) rather than fun (sexual
> fetish) or trans-gender; apparently she wasn't the only one:
>
> When Dr. Binney asked Sampson to deliver a note to General
> Paterson, she correctly assumed that it would reveal her sex. In
> other cases, women who pretended to be men to serve in the army
> were reprimanded, but Paterson gave her a discharge, a note with
> some words of advice, and enough money to travel home. She was
> honorably discharged at West Point, New York, by General Henry
> Knox[5] on October 25, 1783, after a year and a half of service.[4]
>
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deborah_Sampson>
> I expect the "functional" category applies to most of
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wartime_cross-dressers>
> although le Chevalier d'Éon may have been trans-gender.

I remember hearing about at least one of these "wartime cross-dressers"
who continued dressing as a man after discharge, but can't remember the
name.

It wasn't <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Cashier>, but that's the
first example I now found.

--
Quinn C
My pronouns are they/them
(or other gender-neutral ones)

* Adam Funk:

> On 2022-04-04, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>
>> On Monday, April 4, 2022 at 2:45:06 PM UTC-4, Adam Funk wrote:
>>> On 2022-04-04, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
>>> > Mon, 4 Apr 2022 10:53:43 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
>>> ><gram...@verizon.net> scribeva:
>>
>>> >>Russia expert Masha Gessen was on *Meet the Press* yesterday.
>>> >>Chuck Todd avoided all pronoun use, knowing how confusing his
>>> >>audience would find it if he referred to "their book" when only one
>>> >>author was named on the cover.
>>> >>The audiences for political TV and radio programs have known
>>> >>Gessen as "she" for years; the request for "they" is quite recent,
>>> >>though the only way you'd know that from the Wikiparticle is from
>>> >>the mention that Masha bore a child.
>>> >>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masha_Gessen#Personal_life
>>> >>Uncharacteristically, the article gives no hint of the original
>>> >>Russian name.
>>> > The Russian version does: Maria. Unsurprisingly.
>>>
>>> It says "Мари́я (Маша) Алекса́ндровна Ге́ссен" --- I can't read Russian
>>> but I can pick out the Cyrillic enough to get "Mariya (Masha)" out of
>>> that. Do the () mean that they picked that name?
>>
>> Mikhail Baryshnikov's article presumably reads
>> Mikhail (Misha) -- they usually give the standard
>> nickname with Russian names.
>
> Aha, thanks.

No, no "Misha" or other nickname is listed.

--
"I didn't mind getting old when I was young, either," I said.
"It's the being old now that's getting to me."
-- J. Scalzi, Old Man's War

* Janet:

> In article <1i97t913kvli0.dlg@mid.crommatograph.info>,
> lispamateur@crommatograph.info says...
>
>> Thomas_Beatie
>> has had three pregnancies as a man
>
>
> So when the children are asked by other kids and officials, all their
> lives
>
> "Where's your Mum? Who is your Mother? Mother's name? "
>
> how should they reply?
>
> "I don't know."
> "I've never met her"
> " My Mum is a man now."
> "Daddy is my Mother".
> "My mother's name is Thomas Beatie".
>
> ? ???

Maybe "I don't have one"? Which could also be the answer from someone
adopted by a couple of men.

Whether you count a woman who only gave birth to you as "mother" is an
individual decision. It's not, in the last few decades for sure, the
defining point of motherhood, and who gave birth to a child is usually
not required information.

Children with two mothers or two fathers as their guardians are many,
mostly not because anyone in the picture is transgender, so the need to
update the legal framing to "parent" (parent 1, parent 2, maybe even
parent 3) is there anyway.

As for Beatie's case, his children had a mother in Beatie's wife.

> Isn't this the basic conundrum undermining pronoun-choice and self-
> identity?
>
> It's one thing for trans people to choose/adjust/remake their own
> reality. Quite another to force other people to cover up or tell a lie
> that denies THEIR own reality. As in this instance
>
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-52471697
>
> This is a very personal question and you're free to ignore it. Do your
> son and wife, still identify and name you as their father/ husband?

I think it was around Christmas that I brought this up with my son, and
said I don't mind him continuing to categorize me as father in his head,
but pointed out that talking about his father to other people might be
confusing if they then meet me. He concurred. The question of what he
could use instead is open, but any of the words traditionally denoting
mothers isn't on the table, so it's not quite the same discussion.

--
Quinn C
My pronouns are they/them
(or other gender-neutral ones)